Nurturing Our Kids With Jenny Fridge

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Jenny, Jenny Fridge. Looking forward to our conversation, Jenny. Let's talk as if we haven't been chatting for the last 15 minutes, right?

Perfect, I'm ready.

Yeah, so Jenny and her husband Eric have 4 kids. Their youngest joined them through adoption mailing, and, but that— you're empty nesters now, right? They—

we are empty nesters. Yes, our eldest 2 are married and our youngest 2 are in college.

And, uh, Jenny also works at Sanctuary Foster Care. The Sanctuary Foster Care Service, it says on this little Zoom.

Exactly, you said it all. Yes, all important pieces of that title.

Yes, very good indeed. So, um, what, what does thriving mean to you, Jenny?

Yes, anticipating that question, I was trying to think of a, of a metaphor or something that, that just kind of reflects thriving to me. And I have— are you familiar with hydroponic gardening?

This is where you have like little thin tubes that put the water on into the—

yeah, exactly. Yes, I have. It's called a tower garden, and I have a tower garden, and, um, it's Super fun. It's really nice here in Houston weather. But the tower garden is 20 gallons of water at its base, and then the water is cycled on by a pump every 15 or 20 minutes to bathe the roots in water so that all of the plants on the outside of the, the tube are able to thrive. And it's It's just a joy to, to have it right outside of my kitchen door and to watch that, that garden grow even amidst, amid the, the heat and the elements and maybe a drought and all the things. That tower garden, when it is plugged into the electricity so that the pump can run, It thrives, and to watch it, to be able to go out and clip lettuce and to clip onions and a number of different vegetables, it's just, it's, it's a joy to watch. And as it, as it starts to grow, you see the thriving. And if I neglect it over time, if I don't go and trim and cut off the things that are ready to be eaten, It's not gonna thrive. There are things to be done that keep it thriving. So that picture of thriving is something that, like I said, even when there are hard things going on, the, the elements around that, that tower garden are, are hard and heavy and could, you know, prevent the, the plants from growing. It still is thriving. And so that's the picture that came to mind after our first conversation and after knowing what you're about and what your podcast is, is, is leaning into this concept of thriving. That was the picture that came to mind.

How high is your tower garden?

Oh, it's probably 6 feet.

6 feet.

Yeah. Yeah.

It has 20 ports, so I can put 20 seedlings all around it of all different things. And it's very strategic what you plant. But it's, um, started it during, during COVID and it was, it was kind of my, that was my COVID hobby during the, the pandemic. Yeah.

Yeah.

So it, it defies the exterior circumstances.

Yes. Yeah, exactly.

And, and, and yet we, we're obsessed with this idea that the The external weather determines our internal weather, right?

Very true. Yeah. It doesn't have to.

It doesn't.

It's very disempowering that for for for me. There's waste recycling. plant in on the outskirts of Leeds, which are industrial city, 14, 15 miles from, from here. And it's, it's huge.

Mm-hmm.

It, it's maybe 6 stories high, and the whole side of it is green. It's, it's got plants like on the All the way up growing the whole thing.

So, and how is that? Because of the—

I'm guessing that they've got some kind of tower garden thing going on, like, yeah, like, uh, like you have, just on a, on a, on a grander scale too.

Mm-hmm.

Um, well, it doesn't— it's in a, it's in an industrial part of town. It's not a by a highway, by a, like, a 4-lane, 2 lanes going each way. But it's not camouflaged in. It really sticks out. I'm going into too much detail.

But it defies, like you said, it defies everything about what's expected.

Yeah.

And It needs the— there's the nurturing, there's the electricity, there's the water, there's the— that's going on all the time. And then there's the, the, the, the care that you're giving it each day.

All of it is.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

What about the roots? You know, we think of, we, we think of, uh, I, I'm, I'm thinking of a, an adoptee podcast that I've been on. It's called Pulled by the Root.

Hmm.

Which is a pretty dramatic, doom-laden Thing, right?

Yeah, Pulled by the Roots. I'm not familiar with that one. I need to remember that.

Uh, it's written by an adoptee called Heidi, Heidi Marble. I haven't— I was on it a couple of years ago. I haven't really been in touch with Heidi since. Um, but, you know, there's kind of like this, that transplant I guess, you know, we could, we could look at it as, as, as pulled, pulled by the roots, but maybe a, a more gentle way of looking at it would be like transplanted, right?

Mm-hmm.

Well, and those roots are, are so key. And I'm thinking of the tower garden. There are some of those plants that the roots are just Massive. And if they get too long, I actually go in and trim them. I can go in through the base and trim the roots because they can become so massive that they suck more water. And, and the water, it just, it takes up too much water. And so it's interesting how there's a balance, you know, there's, there's a balance in all of that. And these, these roots, when you think of our Our adopted friends, I mean, yourself included, your, your roots are still such a part of who you are, but there's, there's still a balance of where are you rooted now. There's a, there's a rootedness in, in our presence right here and now in front of us and not living in the past. That's part of your story. You have to identify that. But we also have to be rooted where we are and planted where we are. In the space where where God has us, and it's messy. I just I think of just it's a messy process. It's not the adoptee's journey is not it's not linear. It's not perfect. It's not it's not always what you would expect, but but it's good, and it when you're thriving, you can navigate all of those seasons. Um, through the mess sometimes.

Yeah.

We just had a transition. My number— I said both of my younger girls are actually in college. My number, the number 3 girl, she actually just graduated in May. And, um, great. So we went to, um, to, to her graduation. And my youngest adopted one is— was transitioning to, as I, as I mentioned, be an RA in Germany.

Yeah.

And so she had one day to come home from West Texas, from where they go to school, to pack everything and prepare to leave on Monday for her trip, her entire summer to Germany. She was finishing up a hard semester of nursing school. She did amazing. But it was a big weekend of transition, you know, moving out of the dorm, graduating her sister, preparing for this big move for the summer to another job as an RA. Transition. And she had a bit of a breakdown. There was, there was a situation with her car. And it doesn't matter all the details. But she's not generally an emotional kid. As a girl, we always laugh about some of her sisters are more dramatic, and she's pretty even keel. But this particular weekend, all of those transitions, something in her body just crashed. And the— her response was with such emotion. And in the middle of a whole graduation party of people, which again is not her normal default. But I think it's her body just reacting and responding to transition. And it didn't feel— I don't think it felt safe. Nothing was certain. She wasn't in control. And so we were always navigating that process. And all of us do that. But I think our adoptees, their journey is, is a little, is a little more, um, I don't want to say harder, but, but maybe, um, it's just uniquely different because their body is remembering things and responding to things from their own roots, back to the roots, that they have to, um, they have to learn how to, how to do that. And, and a thriving adoptee Um, is one who's able to do that even in the midst of a meltdown and emotions and all of that. She's very self-aware even in the midst of those emotions. She knew what she was feeling was maybe not— we, we validated the emotion. The reason behind it was kind of silly, and she recognized that but still had the emotion, and that's, that's okay. But it is— it helps as her family, as her mom. It helps me to remember, okay, this is just hard, and I need to recognize that, and I need to live with her in this and help remind her what is true. I think that's the thing. When I think of our adopted kids, I think of resilience, and all of our kids just— I don't know if you've heard of the The Harvard study on resilience. Are you familiar? I don't know when this was, but they talk about the power of one, the power of one individual for every human. That reminds me what is true. Who is, who is that one person? And who, who, who is my, my youngest? Who has been that one person, or maybe multiple? But really, they just need one person to remember what is true and to, to find that place of resilience because of Um, those reminders and, and, and getting up and, and moving forward, even in the hard, messy moments and the, the responses of her body and brain, she can get up and keep, keep moving forward.

One of the recurring themes on the podcast is that Preverbal trauma or nonverbal trauma can't be resolved in therapy. It's we've got to do take a somatic approach to it, and and for me the. Some of the stuff I'm learning on that kind of more somatic-y path is there's, there's the, there's the sensation.

Mm-hmm.

And there's the naming of the sensation.

Mm-hmm.

Or the meaning that we associate with the sensation. And They seem to— this, to me, they seem to be complete— 2 completely different themes. 2 different things. 2 different things.

There's 2 different things, meaning the somatic and the—

Well, there's, you know, obviously we're talking about somatic, Body Keeps the Score, as, um, so there is, there is a sensation in the body. and there is the, the meaning and the reaction to that sensation.

Mhm.

If, if it's just a sensation, it flows through us. But if we resist the temptation— sorry, we— if we resist the sensation, we, um, but we kind of— we resist the sensation. We see the sensation as a problem.

Right. And we don't address the meaning.

Well, the, the, the, the meaning is, is, is whatever we give it. It, it's, it's two different— it's two different— the two different things, the, the physical sensation. So you can, you can have, um, if I say to you spine tingling, right? You might be getting a picture of, of, of, of, of fear, but spine tingling could also be excitement. It's still— it, it's, it's a— the difference between the, the, the raw sensation and the meaning that's— that we, that we give to it, or, or the—

Mm-hmm.

The degree to which we try and push, push it away. I, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to, I'm, I'm, I don't like the sensation that's going on for me. I don't really have a, a, a point on this other than the, other than it's, it's the two different things.

And then it's real and valid for anyone to feel. Yeah, it is interesting. It's amazing to me what we have uncovered about neuroplasticity and the brain in the last 2 decades, I guess, maybe more. It's exciting, but it's still— I mean, like the tower garden, the hydroponic garden, there's so many pieces that play into that for healing. for healing the brain and retraining the brain. Um, yeah, lifelong journey for all of us, truly. We did— when we were foster parents, we had an opportunity to do adult attachment interviews. Are you familiar?

Yeah.

Oh my word, it was fascinating. I thought I knew what was coming when this trained counselor, you know, gave me all of the questions and we walked through it. And I was like, oh, I know what to expect. I'd never done one before, but I thought I knew what to expect. Well, what came out as I'm describing my own childhood, and my own current patterns of attachment and how it plays out in my foster parenting and parenting was just fascinating. It was absolutely— I haven't earned secure attachment, but still lean into some of the, what is I think titled the ambivalent preoccupied tendencies of attachment. And so It just, it was so good to, even in my own, because I feel like I'm fairly self-aware at my age and having studied everything I have for my kids and our foster and adoptive children. But yet there's still so much I'm still uncovering in my own heart and mind. And, um, it was, it was just fascinating. Um, so such a learning experience for me to then recognize that in other people, the people around me are all They all have experiences and paradigms and lenses. Everybody has a story. That's just— that's— I don't know. That's something the older I get, the more I realize that whether I'm in traffic and somebody cuts me off, or, you know, in a coworker conflict or family conflict, whatever it is, everybody has a story, and they're bringing that story into our relationship. And I need to remember that and, and show grace for that. Um, and then also navigate it well. How do we, how do we get beyond whatever those, those lenses are to, to what's true? Remember what's true and healthy and good. Um, but it's, it's a lot to consider.

Yeah.

What, what do you mean by truth in this? In this context, Jenny?

Yeah, remembering what is true. I think, um, for our adopted kids, the first and foremost priority when any of our foster kids walked into our home, you're safe. You know, creating that felt safety. You are safe right now. You may feel like everything is just being pulled out from under you, but you're safe. You're not alone. I'm here. Um, you are good. I mean, I think, I think that truth is going to look different in every context. But, um, we, and we can keep saying the things. And in our brains, I think of the metaphor too of the, the roadway that, that our brains have these pathways and we just keep having these ruts that we fall into, the ruts on the side of the road that Our brain just, just does that. We, we, we do that, and we are staring down, and we think we're fine. But, but there's some deep grooves and ruts over here that we just naturally, we naturally do that. And so with our little— I remember our little 3-year-old foster child. She walked in this house a very angry little girl, just angry. But it was rooted in fear. We were her 5th or 6th home, depending on if you count some moves within her family, and she was 3 years old. That's— there's no— that's trauma with a capital T. There's no— I don't even know what that fear would— I don't know how that would manifest for me, but for her it looked like anger. And so she did not like to be alone. She couldn't be alone even in sleep. She had— we had to enlist the help of a sleep therapist. Because we were all exhausted. She would have night terrors, and she couldn't play alone. I couldn't make a phone call, which most of my phone calls were about therapy visits and things for her. Could not make a phone call because she could not be alone. And so the truth I kept coming back to for her was, I'm here. You are safe. Even when she's throwing food and toys and shoes and you name it. self-harm behaviors, you're safe. I'm not going anywhere. Even when I wanted to run, and that, that required some, some somatic skills for me to, to regulate my own self so that I could stay with her and remind her what was true. For my kids, for all of my kids, reminding them what is true, that they are You know, they are— we— I often will tell my kids when they, when they would go off to a, to a friend's house or overnight or on a trip, and I would say, remember whose you are. And that meant you're a fridge, which means you're, you know, you're part of this family. You're, you're a fridge kid, and that, that means something. But even more for them, it's our faith, and you're a child of God, and, and that does not change wherever you go. And so, um, that's, that's the remembering what is true constantly. And I— my husband does that for me. He has to remind me what is true. You're a good mom. You know, I feel like I've just missed it with one of my kids. He'll remind me, you're a good mom. You are doing all the things. And, um, yeah, don't, don't stop.

Yeah.

So those are the things.

And it's a, and it's about what they hear, not, or what you hear, not what he says, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's more than a saying thing. It's gotta be a doing thing as well. Sure. It, it, people, I don't know, did use the word a, a felt sense of safe safety.

Right, right. It's actually being there. and, and helping to keep them safe.

Sure.

Yeah, I interviewed a, a young adoptee, 18, um, called, uh, Isaac last week, and he— just about to release it— but, uh, he, he came from Ethiopia. He was adopted when he was 5, uh, and he— his First big turnaround moment was when his dad crawled underneath the bed. He was underneath the bed and the dad crawled and somehow fitted under his 6-foot frame under this bed and held Isaac.

He was with him.

Yeah. And we, you, you know, I've heard that, that word neuroplasticity. I can't get something wrong.

We know what it is. Yes.

Um, to me, that is a moment of, I, I, I, I would, I'd call it insight or insight or epiphany, right? This one of my— the slight concern with the word neuroplasticity, although other than just because I can't say it, not just because, um, but because it feels, it feels like it needs a guy or a woman in a white coat, right? It needs, it needs, it needs some neuro boffin, right? But The neuroplasticity is about a change that happens in a moment. And so the space that we're trying to create is for those insights to happen.

Yeah, it's so hopeful for me. It just, it just gives me hope that this, this brain, this amazing computer that we have, it, it can be retrained. And it's, it's plastic. Neuroplasticity. It's plastic. And so we can form, form it into its, its most healthy place. And it does. It's, it's moments. It's little moment after moment after moment after moment that That make healthy, positive changes and growth in the right direction.

It's easier.

So if I just say neuro— a neuroplastic moment, then that's better.

There we go.

That's my way around. That's my way around.

There we go.

Yeah. What, what have been your most neuroplastic moments of, of insight and epiphany?

Hmm.

Um, so many, honestly. I mean, I still remember bringing our adopted one home. She was 18 months old, and, um, yeah, I get emotional thinking about it. She actually would have nothing to do with me from the moment we got her in China. Actually, she would have nothing to do with me. She wanted my husband. Which I've learned since is not necessarily uncommon for some of these, these babies, if you consider that her birth mother essentially abandoned her. And then again, when we pulled her from the orphanage, that was the second woman that was— she had one caregiver, a nanny there in the orphanage that was her primary caregiver. And I'm so thankful because there was a strong attachment. But she was essentially twice removed from a female care— her caregivers and mother ultimately. And so she bonded. I think my husband felt there was a safety that she felt with him that she did not feel with me. And so I still remember when he would literally sneak out of the house to go to work after we came home because she would scream otherwise if he— if she saw him leave. But there were days that I would be rocking her either. Maybe it was for nap time. I just, just rocking her and she would just melt down in these. And she only did it maybe 3 times, but she would be crying this cry of just agony to the point where I had to lay her at my feet and she was holding on. One ankle while kicking me at the same time. It was, it was the— and my husband was never there. No one else ever witnessed it. I remember calling him and saying, you can't imagine what I just witnessed. And it was, it was her, her body was, I think, grieving. And over time, we watched her attach and grow into a child that That doesn't even— doesn't— while adoption is part of her story, she doesn't think of herself as the adopted kid. Like, that's not who she— how she identifies. Um, she's beautiful and self-aware, like I said. And yes, she navigates identity, is still a, a journey for her. Um, I think there are seasons of that for— I mean, you at 40, that was— a big identity moment for you when you realize the teddy bear, the teddy bear moment. Um, so yeah, so all I could, I could describe so many moments with our foster kids that I watched those things happen in their brain that were, um, that were just aha moments for me and for them as they were growing through the messy journey of adoption.

And what, what were the biggest things that you learned in those aha moments?

Um, I think the, the presence, going back to the resilience, just the, the importance of me staying in those moments and not running. Everything in me, I, I, no one runs to Conflict or to trauma or to to messy hard things. But I think I don't know. I don't know if that's what you know. You look around. I think of a lot of your your this community, your guests that you've had on your podcast, and I every one of them I feel like I could be friends with. Then you go to these adoption conferences and different connection points and networks with with this community. There's just something special, and I wonder. Is it that we've seen something and we can't look away? And we all have that. Is it compassion? It's that, that, that dad getting under the bed with the boy. It's the— we have to, we have to get under the bed, we have to sit in the hard. We can't run away from it. And, and it's in the staying, it's in the compassion, it's in the presence, where we get to see and be a part of the healing. It's We have to. We just we have to. We can't look away. That's why I do the work I do. Why in this empty nest season, I'm working in the foster care space in this crazy big city of Houston, Texas. It's daunting. There are days, yes, still that I want to run the other way because it's overwhelming. But I see the value of staying, and I see the value of. Navigating this hard, this, this, all of these trauma-informed therapies and all of the brain things. I watch it make a difference. I can see it in the lives of children and families. And I, it jazzes me, it gets me excited to, to be a part. Because I think we're making a difference. I really do together. The collaboration going on in our city is just beautiful. And I get to be a part of it. It's— yeah, that's, I think, what I learn is just to keep sticking with it. I think the more I know, the less I feel like I know anything. I think there's so much. And everybody's story is different. So it feels overwhelming because just when I think I have the aha moment with Lynette from Generation O and the opioid-exposed children, oh, here's the thing.

Here's the—

The response, here's the tool. Well, then another situation comes along, another kid, another story, and it's gonna look different. Eric and I, we help facilitate a small group, a connection group, with a number of foster, adopt, and kinship parents. And it's— we have tears every single week that we're together. We have tears. But we also have hope, and we just keep sharing stories of hope, remembering and reminding each other, okay, but this is true. Remember a month ago when you celebrated this? And I've been there, and this is how we've navigated it. And so I think that's what I've learned, is just to stay with it, to be present, to get under the bed. Maybe that's the thing. That's the visual.

Mm-hmm.

Persistence. The Marines, apparently they pride them on the Marines. We have Marines here in the UK as well, right? They're okay. They're different, a different character, but they are similarly kind of elite minded.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so the— but apparently the Marines in the States say that we're the only unit that runs towards the, the gunfire, right?

Yeah.

The, the other units are, are running away. Now, I'm sure that that makes them feel good and, and kind of reinforces that, you know, the elitist kind of, um, mindset. Whether it's true or not, I don't know. But isn't that— that's what the kids need to know, that you're not going nowhere.

You're not going anywhere. You're right. Yeah, it's huge.

But they need to— but it's not just a knowing thing, though, and it's deeper than that. Um, I had this, uh, I had this moment on a, uh, went on a retreat before, November last year, and it's a week-long retreat with, uh, guided meditations and Q&A sessions.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I, I, I went I went for a kind of a somatic experience.

Mhm.

Because I, I didn't think that I could get my— comprehend my wholeness, right, more than I did. You know, I, I thought, I, I've got to the end of the line in terms of logic. of seeing my wholeness underneath the trauma, right? And there was— I asked a question during one of the Q&As, and, uh, the, the guy that's leading the retreat, Rupert, he looked me straight in, straight in the eyes, uh, and he, he, he said, um, You— and he means uppercase Y, yeah, who I truly am— um, you, you were never, you were never traumatized, Simon. And he didn't hesitate like that, actually. He was bold as brass, right?

Hmm.

Underneath the trauma, he's talking about underneath the trauma.

Hmm.

So Have you come across IFS and Dick Schwartz? No, you've done— you've clearly done some TBRI stuff, right?

Yes.

Which is a Texas thing.

Um, it is.

Yeah. Do you know David? You know David Cross?

Oh yes, yes, Dr. Cross.

Yeah, he's been— he's, he's a foster kid that aged out, right? And, um, he had one guy actually. You're talking about one guy. So anyway, IFS is another modality, and it's an American guy called Dick Schwartz who founded it, and he talks about the uppercase S Self, who we, who we truly are.

Yeah, underneath the trauma.

Underneath the trauma. Yeah.

Um, yeah, yeah.

underneath the trauma, despite the trauma.

Mm-hmm.

So he would— another word for what he is referring to is, is, uh, consciousness.

Mm-hmm.

And so when Rupert looked at me and I said, you, you, you were never traumatized, I got that. I got the, the— my logic went even deeper than I Thought. I didn't think I could get it any deeper.

Was that a good thing that he said it?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's— it was a hearing thing. I, I heard that. Yeah, it was a depth thing.

Interesting. That's good.

The—

my metaphor for this is, uh, some pennies just keep on dropping.

So good you had time to get away and be quiet. I think there's so many distractions for especially our younger kids and our teens and our young adults. They don't stop to, um, consider, um, that wholeness to really—

People don't point out to them. Yeah, in, in, um, perhaps in some religious settings they do, but, but in some religious settings, you know, the, the, the, the belief is that we're all broken, you know, um, I struggle with that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Even some of our religious settings are still noisy. So, that's good that you got a way to be quiet and to listen.

So, I guess I'm talking about the Depth of felt safety.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

The depth.

And it's not something they believe right away. I mean, it might be something that we keep saying and they hear it, but they don't know it. Like you said, they might not know it and we just keep saying it. That's, that's the presence. That's And until they do know it, and that may not come while they're in our home even, um, we, we just keep saying it and doing it, right?

Yeah, doing it.

It's, it's got to be more about saying it. It's got to be about—

yeah.

It's got a—

There are rhythms too for myself. I mean, it's, it's, it's applicable for me. There are things that, you know, the fake it till you make it. I have rhythms in my day of, um, quiet and rest and meditation and communion and, um, and even play and self-care and all those things. And, and sometimes I don't feel like doing those things. But I keep doing them until, until I do feel like doing them. And so I, and I, I see the results and I see the, the outcomes that are, that are positive. So, um, yeah, we just keep doing, doing the things.

One of the TBRI things that keeps on coming back, back for me is this truth that, uh, A dysregulated adult, dysregulated parent can't regulate a dysregulated child.

Exactly.

So what have you learned about self-regulation?

Um, I don't know, the, the biggest thing that that I am, as we navigate, as we kind of walk this journey with other couples and families, community is huge. Finding community and support around you. There's a lot of tools, of course, we can do to self-regulate, you know, whether it's breathwork or Just sleep or walking away, you know, just even just saying, okay, I need time. We're going to revisit this. You know, if the child's in a safe place, taking time before you go back and navigate whatever the thing is. But having a community around you of like-minded people who can hold you accountable, who can maybe give you support. Maybe it's childcare or babysitting for a time so that you can get away, whatever, whatever it is that you need to self-regulate, and teaching you how to do it, you know, to share the tips and the tricks of how do we, how do we self-regulate? What is, what works for you? Because sometimes we're out of ideas. And, and, you know, it could be something as simple as a walk every day. Of course, sleep is important. Maybe it's journaling, maybe it's something creative. But that community, it's huge. It's— I, I don't know how. And I know there are a lot of people in our culture today because of technology, and a lot of people are isolated. But I think, I think we all long for being a part of something and belonging to something that gives us encouragement and resources and tools. So community would be my— I don't know, that's, that's one of those things I'm always encouraging and just shouting from the rooftops. Find your people. Find those with common values to help encourage you in, in what you're doing. And there's nothing like this community of foster and adopt families that sees each other in, in ways that others can't. So that's what we're, we're longing for more of that. And in our particular area where we live, we're help— we're looking to create more of that. Um, on a consistent basis, because there's a lot of people that feel alone and don't have the resources or the tools or, um, the, the encouragement to do that well for their kids, and they're all drowning. So we need to lift them up.

Yeah, we've almost been on like 50 minutes. Jenny, and it seems like about 50 seconds.

That time, time is a, is a thief, as they say.

Is there anything that you'd like to share that I've not asked you about?

I think, I think we covered, I mean, so much. Yeah, the connection, the community. The presence. Yeah, the power of one. I think the, the under the bed— I think I'm going to take that with me from our talk today, um, that picture of getting under the bed. Yeah, because some— sometimes there's scary things under those beds, especially at night. And, uh, yeah, again, I just, I love this community. I, um, I, I— it's wild to me that you are all the way across the pond and, um, We have all these common friends and, and even more just common like-minded hearts for these kids and families. That's— yeah, it's, it's pretty cool that I get to do the work I get to do and see the hope that I get to see. I am hopeful. I really am. I'm hopeful for All adoptees to be thriving, even in the mess, even in the hard, even in the days when things are overwhelming and they're not even sure of their own wholeness. I'm still hopeful. I think it's, there's good, there's good things to come. There's amazing resources and then all these people that, that are our friends. So thank you.

Thank you, Jenny. And, uh, thank you, listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye-bye.