Primordial Peace With Elmarie Arnold

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Elmarie, Elmarie Arnold. Welcome to the show, Elmarie.

Thank you, Simon, it's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, so listeners will probably tune into Elmarie's accent, probably the 3rd, maybe 4th South African we've had on the, on the, on the show. So, uh, you're out, you're out there making, making a difference.

All—

I think all the, all the South African adoptees that I've interviewed for the show have got books, and that includes, uh, Elmarie as well. So as always, listeners, I would encourage you to look at, uh, look in the, the show notes and check out what, uh, Elmarie is doing and check out her book.

So, um, Thriving Adoptees.

What, what comes to mind when you hear the name of the podcast, Elmarie?

Well, Simon, I don't think I'm going to have an, an easy, uncomplicated answer here because for me it depends on who's asking and then who's listening. I'm asking, I'm asking.

You're making it more complicated than it is. It was me asking, just Just, just assume it's me. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. But then I can say, you know, from what perspective are you asking this question? Because if it's being asked from the eternal perspective, then I'm listening with my higher self. And then that comes from the realm where there's no space, no time, no separation, no harm, no loss, no trauma, because there's only wholeness and there's only love. And then in that space, Simon, thriving isn't something to achieve. It's simply being. So for me, it is. And I must say, this is my belief. I'm not expecting anybody to agree with me. But it is important that I'm also authentic and that, you know, I'm just being myself here. So for me, it is Consciousness revealing itself to itself, and that is unbroken and infinite. But if the question is asked from the human perspective, and the one who's listening is the one who has lived and longed, you know, who's known the ache of absence and the weight of stories, then for me, Thriving is something I step into, and it's a moment-by-moment process. Um, for me, it is a sacred alchemy of turning my pain into wisdom and my wounds into expansion. So it's the bridge for me between survival and transcendence, between forgetting and remembering. who I truly am. So for me to thrive is then both a return to my eternal self, but it's also a becoming. And it is the breath of grace over my life which says that I was never lost. All I'm doing here is I'm just finding my way home.

Brilliant.

I honestly believe that, Simon, and I believe, you know, it is multifaceted, and it's taken me all of almost 59 years now to these things that mull inside me, that drives me to, to try to package it or to be able to explain it or to grow into it. And I don't think I'm ever going to be finished because it's also something that keeps on evolving with me as my consciousness expands, as I come to certain points where I suddenly get an aha moment, like, wow, why haven't I seen this before? Why haven't I looked at it from this angle? Then everything changes and shifts. So it's also very uncertain, but I find that it's in the uncertainty where the healing and the growth and the wisdom is, because it's constantly taking me out of my own narratives, my own stories, um, that we all want to tell ourselves. So I'm very careful about What I say to myself, because I know I am listening.

So last year we did a long spell— I did a long spell of asking people about healing, and there is no, no heat. There is no, no healing is required if we're already whole. Right? Healing presupposes wounded— woundedness in, uh, in a, in a, in a relative, a human, a human form, in a psychology— psychological— a psychological wound. Uh, so for, for me, last week I came up with a halfway house.

Right.

Um, so on the one hand, we've got, uh, we've got— on the one hand, we've got the, the primal wood, and at the other extreme, what, what would you, what would you sum up what you're just saying about wholeness? Would it be, I don't know, infinite wholeness, or, you know, what, what word What, what word, um, what, what 2, 2 or 3 words kind of sums up that infinite, unwoundable thing for you?

Sure, that is a complicated answer you've got there. What, what springs to mind is that I always feel like I'm a spiritual being and I'm incarnated in this life to pursue certain themes. And if I look at it from that point of view, then it feels to me like I've taken ownership and I've, I've chosen to explore something. And for me, this is adoption, the, the trauma of being relinquished, not—

Mm-hmm.

you know, being taken away from my birth mother straight after being born. And I've had many experiences reliving that. So I know there's something in my body that remembers that. But then I also believe that I am more than my body. And if I look at it from that perspective, and I then see these things that I work on, quote unquote, to become whole, then that process in itself isn't broken. I don't know if, if it makes sense what I'm trying to say.

Can I— I just want to take you, take you back to the question because I want to kind of lay out a, a, a, a path, a really simple path. I love what you're doing. I love this approach. I'm totally with you. And I'm trying to, I'm trying to, uh, I, I came up with this halfway, this halfway house idea last, last week, and I thought it was good because it's, it's a step on the way, right? It's, uh, if, if the— instead of having to jump from one riverbank to another that's too far, right, if we put a stone in the middle you know, put a stone in the middle, um, then we can land on that stone and can take us to the other side. So I'm— my, my word for the, uh, the spiritual being wholeness stuff that you, you came up with, I came up with this a few weeks ago, is primordial peace, right? Primordial peace. So Could, could you, could, could you kind of sum up it? I mean, does that— does primordial peace, does that resonate with you? Does, uh, uh, well, does that resonate with you? And does, uh, another kind of little phrase come to mind that's closer to how you see it?

Yes, uh, it, it does make a lot of sense, Simon. I'm immediately thinking of, um, the light weighing dire. And he said something in one of his talks, and it's always stuck with me. And he said, the soul is only interested in one thing, and that is peace. And then he said, whenever you confront it with a choice to make and you're not sure which choice should you take, A or B, then you must only ask yourself, which choice will give me peace? And even if the one that gives you peace doesn't make sense and it feels like it's daft, then go with the one that gives you peace. Because peace, I think, is something highly to be aspired to.

Okay.

Because if I think of— yeah.

Yeah, okay. So I'm gonna put 2 of those words that I love, the pointer. I love the pointer that you're going to make a decision from that place of peace and wholeness. So I'm going to sum that, what you just said, up in 2 words. I'm going to call it the peaceful soul, right? The peaceful soul, right? So I've changed my primordial peace a little bit. We've still got peace in there, but it's peaceful, right?

Okay.

So if we've got the primal wound on one riverbank, And we've got the peaceful soul on the others, on the other riverbank. The stone in the middle that, that can— I think that we can, you know, jump onto and then jump off is, uh, the— I've forgotten the word— primal paradox, right? Primal paradox. So we've got Primal wound, one riverbank, the stone in the middle that we land on, um, uh, primal paradox, and peaceful soul on the other riverbank. So what I mean by primal, uh, paradox— a paradox is, um, when 2 things are seemingly different are true. I think— I don't—

Opposing.

Yeah, 2 opposing truths, uh, 2 opposing truths are held, views. So the primal paradox is looking— is saying, right, on one level, perhaps the human level, or perhaps the psychological level, we are wounded. But at a deeper level, we, we, we are always and were always whole. And that, and that's— and on that level is the peaceful soul. So, uh, it's a step on the way. Primal wound, jump off a riverbank. Primal wound, land on the stone in the middle. Primal paradox, jump off on the other, uh, jump off on the other bank. Peaceful soul. So it makes it like it's a halfway house. So we're not saying— just makes it the journey a little bit easier somehow.

Yes. And, and what, what I, um, read into that, Simon, is like, or it's going to propel me forward.

Okay, the, the, the— it froze.

Yes, I heard.

The internet froze at, uh, my end, so I eventually stopped recording, and then I'll just, I'll just start recording again. And I didn't hear any of your answer because as soon as I finished— so sorry, apologies. And it is me, right, not you? So I couldn't even press, I couldn't even press, um, Sorry about that. Sorry about that, listeners. I don't know what quite what happened there. My Zoom dropped out and then I lost myself. We'll have to have a look at that glitch. So I didn't hear, didn't catch any, any of what you said, uh, unfortunately, Anne-Marie.

No, that's fine, Simon. Maybe it's all the energy coming from South Africa that's freaking the internet out. Now, I, I was saying what, um, this, uh, this image of this stone, and you've got the 2 riverbanks, on the one hand the primal wound and on the other hand the wholeness. And if I then see this person standing on this stone in the middle, then I'm immediately thinking, now there's a pull, because either you're gonna step back or you're gonna jump forward. So for me, that stone in the middle means first and foremost awareness. And for me, it would be I need to be aware and conscious of what am I telling myself also about the primal wound, because even that, the way I look at it, is not set in stone. Like, yes, the memories or the fact that it happened, that I experienced that trauma as a newborn, that was very, very, very real. And I would be lying here if I have to say, listen, I was totally unaffected by it. I wasn't. But I'm not that newborn anymore. So for me now, it is to look back and to evolve, to grow, to have a bigger view on it all. Because just by doing that, just by looking back, I feel I can already change the narrative and What I find is then if I then talk about it, my body doesn't have that same reaction. It's like I, I feel I can even heal the physical sensations.

So I think what you're saying is that we can— we're, we're feeling our, our current meaning of the primal wound And, and our, uh, our view of that, our— the meaning that we associate with the primal wound and the hurt that we associate with the primal wound, that's, that's not set in stone, to use your words. That's flexible. So this is about how, how we see our trauma being flexible. Is that right? Yeah.

Yes, and healing as the awareness grows. Because in my own life, for me, it's like peeling an onion. And sometimes I go back to a point where I've been a while back, sometimes it's years back, but then I'm at a deeper level because I've peeled off more layers of the onion. And I feel like the more I'm shedding those skins, the more I get to the core truth. And that core truth is that unwoundableness or unwoundedness or wholeness or, or however we want to define it. And that is also where that ultimate peace, I think, for me would be.

Yeah. Do you remember First touching this space and knowing what was going on?

The big wake-up call for me, Simon, was when I was 30. And I grew up my whole life knowing that I was adopted, ever since I can remember. There was a beautiful story. I felt proud. I felt special. I was an only child. I was absolutely loved and adored. And I always said, I don't have a problem with the fact that I'm adopted, and I don't want to go and search for my birth mother. I'm happy. But then I was in a, in a situation where somebody— she asked me if I had forgiven my birth mother for giving me up for adoption. And I felt an indignation, like, you know, what are you talking about? There's nothing for me to forgive. And then, Simon, then I sat with the lady, and I don't know, I Something came over me and I started crying, and it was like a dam had burst inside me. And the first words that spilled over my lips were, "Why did you hate it every time when I kicked inside you?" And that totally threw me because I walked away there and I thought, you know, where are these words coming from? Why? Because I've never even thought about that. I haven't thought about an experience that I could have had in utero. I never pondered on it. But that, that day was a massive, massive catalyst for me. And from that moment on, I almost became obsessed with finding out who am I, who do I want to be, how do I want to shape my life. And then—

Sorry, sorry listeners, this internet's really glitching. So can you take us Back, Elmarie, you said, uh, you were talking about the fact that from that moment on, after this big, uh, this, this big, um, big moment for you, you became obsessed with finding out who you, who you are and finding your story.

Yes, because, Simon, then I realized, but I, I do not want to be a victim of this. I want to gain ascendance over the— this. I want to have the victory. Um, so, and then I realized, but for me to do that, it means I have to go within myself. And, um, it is something that, um, you know, I don't know if you've ever heard of this. I say sometimes, you know, people say things happen to me, and that is when we're in victim victimhood, because then it's something I'm helpless in it. It's, it's happening to me. But then when I start saying, oh, this is happening for me, then I can switch it and see, okay, there's some sort of a blessing here. There's some sort of a lesson or a good reason. And then the next stage is to say, but okay, things are happening through me. And then I realize I'm only the channel The conduit. It's happening through me. But you, you talk about something you've discovered last week. Well, this afternoon I thought, wow, there's another step now, because now for me it is I must pay attention to the things that happen in me, because it's from this place where I'm shaping my reality and I'm co-creating my world. So, and it's got nothing to do with nobody out there. It's not my birth mother, it's not my adoptive parents, it's not the many situations and experiences I've had in life. It is what am I doing with all of those things. And in that, I have free choice because nobody can climb in my head and force me to, to think a certain way.

Yeah. So it's, it's you choosing rather than trauma choosing.

Yes. Yes. And, and, uh, okay, the question is, who is the you that is choosing? Who is this? It is this Ailmari striving to To become the best version of myself. Everything that I have inside me, to, to, to bring all of that to fruition.

But—

And I'm still working on it, Simon. I think maybe if we have an interview 6 months from now, I might have a different outlook.

But, but this is where I am But the peaceful soul doesn't strive at all.

It's just being. And that is the challenge, is this, to be in this state of simply being. And for me, Simon, is I regularly tell myself that I am enough and I am Where I am doesn't matter. I'm enough as I am where I am. Because there's also that fine line. The minute I start thinking there's something wrong with me, then sometimes it feels to me that is also sidetracking me from where I actually wanna go. Like you say, that, that's that stone in the middle of this river. I wanna jump to the other the bank. And then I must be wise in what I tell myself.

And yet the peaceful soul is far more than just enough.

Yes, I think in a way it is eternal. It has ever been, it will ever be. Will be forever. And then I also often tell myself that I am the one that I've been waiting for. So this peaceful soul, it is in me. It's not something that I must look outside of me. And I'm not saying that I don't use tools to get me to that stage. Sometimes it's just. Being outside in nature, but it's this whole thing of the narrative, Simon. And yes, I've just become very, very, very conscious of what words I'm using. And with me, what precedes the words are the thoughts and the feelings. So I try to be conscious in all of this.

So as you talk about the words thing, I want to go back to that enough word and the fact that sufficient isn't a word that goes with peaceful soul for me. And I came up with this, I don't know, sometime last year, this kind of idea. And it's another kind of a step thing. Um, so, you know, on— for so many years there's been, for, for many of us, uh, the, the, the yearning ache Of not feeling enough. And then, then somehow we see, uh, there's, there's a relief in, in sufficiency, in, in being enough. And then if we keep going along the journey, there's the bliss of infinity.

Yes, yes. Absolutely, absolutely. I agree with you 100%.

So what propels us along that journey, do you think? Or what propelled you along that journey, if I perhaps be better?

The best way I can describe it is just to say it's an— it's a hunger. It is an insatiable drive and desire inside myself, which, yes, I also often wonder, is it something that I was born with? Is it something that I've grown into? Is it something— I don't know where it comes from. I just know that I have a very, very deep desire and, and that I'm constantly hungry. I don't ever feel like I've come to a place of complacency. Because for me, the minute that I become complacent, then it feels I'm, I'm sliding backwards. And the complacency for me just means when I stop asking questions, when I stop, you know, asking questions of myself, and when, when I, when I stop looking at things deeper than what I see on the surface, when I stop listening deeper and feeling deeper, then for me, that, that is where it starts going wrong for me, because then I go into auto mode, and that's never good for me. That's a sleepwalking thing.

So, I mean, you talked about— used the word insatiable. For me, that that word may be sitting, may be sitting at the in the early parts of the journey. Yeah, insatiable wouldn't to me wouldn't describe where you are now or your your your current relationship to to to to your journey. The the the journey. Now seems far more enjoyable, far more less, you know, insatiable to me sounds desperate, you know. And I would think about, you know, the desperate yearning. When I think about my own experience, I would think about the desperate yearning.

Yes, yes.

To the desperate, insatiable yearning. The ache of not feeling enough. But that kind of the difficulty and the darkness on the journey doesn't seem to me to be— doesn't feel to me to be reflective of the later stages of it.

Yes. Now, Simon, if you and I had had this conversation the beginning of last year, I would have said I agree with you 100%. But something happened in my life last year, which I don't want to talk about here because it's all in my memoir. But that experience has Brought me to a place where I've got a renewed awareness now. And maybe what you're picking up now, what I'm saying about this, um, it's, it's just because of what happened to me that I don't want this to be the final chapter in my life. So it's taken me A bit back, maybe retracing my steps, or maybe pausing, or maybe just unlocking some new depths inside myself that I wasn't aware that I had.

Yeah.

So maybe for me, Simon, it's like maybe these things work in layers, and like when I have the victory or ascendance over one, then something else pops up. But then I also have to agree with you. If we are simply being, then all of that falls away because then what is there then that I still need to, to find out or to work on or to peel through the layers? So, yes, it is.

It feels to me a bit more like snakes and ladders than peeling an onion back.

Yeah. That's an interesting, that's an interesting comment there. I've never thought of it like that. Yes. And my, and my life tend to have some of these patterns of snakes and ladders in it. So, yeah. I'm, I'm definitely gonna think on that one. Thank you, Simon. Yeah.

We talked, you talked about Um, you talked about going forward and then going back, so I'm just trying to put a metaphor.

Yes, yes.

That kind of captures what you said, you know. So sometimes, like that, that thing that I talked about, the 3— the, the banks of the river and the stone in the middle— that's kind of my stuff that I'm putting out there for the sake of our conversation. Whereas the snakes and ladders thing, it was my metaphor to kind of match what I heard in what you said.

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I, I don't at this stage have a very clear, definite answer for, for you on that, but I'm definitely going to, to ponder on that, um, because Yes. It is a challenging thing that happened last year. And, yeah.

Yeah.

I just think this is where I'm currently at in my journey, Simon. And I know when we have a— if we should have a follow-up chat, say, a couple of months or even a year or so further down the line, I'm going to have moved beyond this point where I'm currently at.

Yeah, you see, so there's a confidence there. There's a knowing, there's a certainty, there's a definite feel, right?

Yes.

And that sort of confidence doesn't go that confidence to me doesn't sit with the insatiable. There's a, there's a, there's a clash there. It doesn't— that, you know, on one hand you've got insatiable— a satiability which has, you know, has a, a feeling of, uh, desperation when I look at my own stuff. And you seem fairly sure, or more than fairly sure, you're definite that the journey will continue and the learnings will keep coming.

Yes, definitely, definitely, Simon. So yes, maybe—

What do you think keeps us stuck on the On this journey, or what's kept you stuck on this journey?

You see, once again, I'm, I'm so careful what I'm going to answer you now, because every answer I'm giving you, I'm, I'm shaping my reality, and I'm, I'm telling something to myself. And then the next question is, what I'm telling myself Is it something that I'm prepared to live with? So sometimes I think it is just. I love to use the metaphor of a bird flying over my head and it poops on my head, and then I think, okay, sometimes I can't help it that a bird flies and it poops on my head, but I'm definitely not. going to allow it to nest on my head and raise its young there. And, and maybe that is— I don't know if that makes sense to you, or, um, you know, if you, if you understand what I'm trying to say. Yeah.

We don't want to be covered in the stuff.

No, definitely not. Definitely not.

Um, well, there's that saying, isn't there? If, if you're in the shit, keep going.

Yeah. If you're going through hell, just keep going. Don't park off somewhere and, and rest because, yeah, keep going. And, and I don't see my life, my life as that, Simon, despite the things that, that has happened, that has manifested. I can't pretend that it didn't happen. It happened, but I'm not gonna let that define me. I'm not gonna let that put me in a prison because it would be a prison that I've created for myself, and and I'm I'm not going to be the prisoner or the jail cell. Um, I want to be free. Freedom is a very big word for me. Very big. It's it's always been. To be free to be me. Yeah. To basically step into myself and and just be free because somebody also once said there's no apprenticeship for freedom. Either you're free or you're not. Hell, that that is a very tough concept to wrap your head around, eh?

Uh, well, it's back down to the who, who we def— how we define ourselves. You know, we can define ourselves, I think. Did you use the word body-mind? I don't know. Um, did you say that, or am I just imagining that?

I don't think I used it specifically.

Okay, so we can identify with, uh, with our, um, our body or our mind or our body-mind for for, for want of a simpler phrase, or we can, we can identify with our essence. So we can identify with the primal wound, or we can identify with the peaceful soul.

Yes, yes.

And, you know, I, I did a Podcast interview with a, a fellow adoptee called Brett Firth yesterday, and I found it very tricky because we, we, we were just— we were largely discussing the, the, the, the body-mind, or largely discussing psychology rather than the peaceful soul. And whenever I get— nowadays when I get into that discussion around psychology, I just, I just go around in circles. I get, I get stuck. And I'm like, why, why do I— I don't— why? I'm not my psychology. So Why do I want to identify with my psychology? Why do I want to explore my psychology?

Yes, I hear what you're saying. And yes, I also agree with that. And then the other thing, Simon, is that I absolutely believe that the times we are living in right now that I feel there's a lot of help coming towards us from the unseen realms, by lack of a better word to, to describe it, um, that actually helps us to overcome these things. And, and I feel these, these limited or these paradigms and the way we look at it and the way— I almost want to say we're being told how to interpret certain things, that there's a fresh perspective or a fresh energy coming to help us evolve out of this. Let's say, step out of the poop and, uh, or, you know, not park off while you're going through hell. It feels to me like I'm getting help because it feels to me like I'm, I'm getting insights, I'm getting new ideas, I'm getting awarenesses that I've not had before.

Mm-hmm.

I don't know if you also feel that way because you interview many people, or I don't know, then if not, then it's perhaps maybe just something that's applicable to my own life, but then that's also good enough for me.

Well, I believe that we're right at the We're right at the, the vanguard of this, this stuff on, on this podcast.

Yes, Simon, would you just define vanguard for me? I just want to make sure that—

The leading edge.

Yes, yes.

By, by, by leading Uh, I, I mean the, the, the, the, the spiritual edge. Yes. So most, uh, it's like, you know, what a world that used to be all about our essence and, and about spirit became a world that was largely about psychology, and now that world's going into a— now, now we're going into something that's psycho-spiritual. So it's, it's a mixture of both. And yeah, if, if I had to sum up the biggest learning Or my biggest personal learning and the biggest personal, the biggest learnings that I've heard from fellow adoptees is it is that our essence, how we How we see our identity is far more powerful than how we— than our psychology. So I would, I would say, um, the spiritual side, for, for want of a better word, uh, for want of a better verb, trumps psychology. It has a far bigger— it's a far bigger, far more healing or growth. Yes, it's a catalyst. It's a far bigger force in our life.

Yes, yes, yes, Simon, because I think they're also now— and we're tapping also into the the field of energy. And what I've come to realize is that everything is energy. And you get low, dense energy, or you get light vibrations. And I want—

I agree with you. And the stories are very dense.

Yes, yes. Because it's depression, it's grief, it is anger, it is, you know, everything that went— that came with this package called the primal wound or the primal trauma. There's a lot of, of, of very dense energy there, and, and I'm not denying the presence of that energy because I'm not saying to any adoptee, listen, you are making up stuff, it didn't happen. It's not that. I'm just seeing that there's an opportunity to turn that into those lighter vibrations where it is just better to be light and happy and free than it is to be depressed and, you know, to, to carry those heavy, heavy energies because the heavy, heavy energy is a burden. And you know, Simon, how long can we really carry burdens? And in the end, the burdens break us. And to me, that is the saddest thing. You know, if we should allow this thing then called primal trauma to in the end destroy us and, and break us and make less of us than who we are, because we are way more than that. But first of all, we must be prepared to step out of that. And I think maybe now I'm seeing your stone again in the middle of the river. You know, we must be— because nothing's going to happen while we're standing on the bank. We need to step. We need to step out of it. And that stepping is also not necessarily a singular action. It is a constant stepping because as these things lure you back into the past, it— for me, it comes with this conscious decision. No, I'm— I've dealt with that. I've moved away. I've healed that part. I'm not going back there. I'm not gonna wallow in that story because— I'm not the author of that story anymore. I'm now the author of a new story, and this story is better. And I've closed that book.

So as you were describing that, I— some— an idea I've been playing around with fairly recently came to mind is the fact that the that the darkness needs the light, right? That the black of the ink of a dark story needs the white of the paper if we're reading in— if we're reading a paperback or a hardback. If we're reading a memoir Uh, if we're reading a, a book on a Kindle, the, um, the pixels need— that the pixels need the screen.

Yes.

And, and we, we— and the screen is, the screen is awareness. That, that's, that's the piece.

The—

but the peace is drowned out by the clamor of, of the darkness.

Yes.

Until we see the peace. The, the, the, the peace has to be there for it to be loud, for, for the voice to be heard. Like the, the, the music The music needs the— music is in the gap between the notes, not in the notes themselves.

And I'm also thinking of nature. You know, we have day and night, and there are so many amazing things that happen when it is dark. But, but nowhere in nature will it just perpetually be dark or perpetually be light. And I think, Simon, that is also part of, you know, what, what I'm embracing is this, because now we're touching on, on a theme of, of darkness and light. And, and I think if I hear you correctly, you, you're also saying that The darkness isn't necessarily evil or bad, by lack of a better word now.

Well, judging the darkness, you know, like, it's like judging rain, isn't it? It's like saying, I don't want it to rain. Well, if there's no, you know, I'm happier when it's I'm happier when it's sunny. I think I told this story last week on another recording, but it may have just been the conversation. I saw— I went to the swimming pool, as I do, and I asked the lady behind the counter how she was. And she, she checked, she, she looked outside of the big windows of the swimming pool, uh, to, to see how the weather was, and, and then answered me, answered me in accordance with the weather right now. Um, and me too, I'd rather it be sunny too, but you know, like, but if there is no rain, there is no growth, you know. Nothing— very little grows in the desert, does it?

You know. Yes.

Um, liquid sunshine. People call rain liquid sunshine. So judging Trying to shove our feelings away, our negative feelings away, judging our negative feelings, judging ourselves for having those negative feelings—it's it's all it's it's all part and parcel of of of what of of what we do. Yes. But life's a little bit easier if we do it less.

Yes. And the more we, we become aware of what we do subconsciously, the more we have the opportunity to, to bring that into our conscious awareness, and then we can transcend that.

Mm-hmm.

And then it makes it easier when we get pulled back into those experiences, it becomes easier and easier to pull ourselves out of it.

The darkness is less scary.

Yes. Yes.

That feels to me like a good place to bring it in. But as soon as I say that, I think, oh, we're finishing on Simon's thoughts, not Ailmarí's.

I'm happy to finish on Simon's thoughts. Bring it on.

Um, what would you like to call this episode, Ailmarí?

Oh, goodness gracious. No, Simon, you can't let this now end with a massive question here. Now, I know you've got something in mind.

I've got my one.

Give me your thoughts. Maybe I can expand on that, or maybe just agree with it.

Well, we had that word— I came up with that summation of what you were talking about with, uh, after Wayne Dyer. Um, and that, that was Peaceful Soul.

Peaceful Soul.

That, that might be a nice idea. And also, just one more, one more thought on, on Wayne Dyer. He, he's— he started off very, very mindsetty. Yeah, very psychological. Yes. And then he— but he shifted completely over his, over his career, over his writing career, um, to be far more, far more focused on who we are than— yes, how we think and feel.

Yes. I, I think if I look at Wayne Dyer, and I mean, also remember he grew up in foster foster homes. He, you know, he always said how many foster homes he, he, he, he was in because he was never adopted. And yeah, he also— his journey. And I think if I look at Wayne Dyer, then I think that, that there's a man who moved from his headspace into his heart space. Because the head, the mind, wants to make sense of things and come up with answers. And that's also sometimes where the ego likes to, you know, also have its final say. And I, and I think with Wayne Dyer's journey towards the end, he was just one big fat heart.

Brilliant. Dare we— I'm not sure if I dare call the episode a big fat heart.

And that is where we should be, Simon. We should have big fat hearts because then it's not about how many times we've been hurt. If you've got a big fat heart full of love, then it means none of that can really damage us.

Yeah. There's another metaphor that pops for me when you talk about this stuff and something that I think It captures quite well the, the kind of primal wound to peaceful soul, um, journey. That's, you know, journey is, is the, the difference between, um, a broken heart and a heart attack, right?

Yes.

Yes. Like, I, I remember my dad's dad, my— we called him Pop. I remember him dying of a heart attack, and I remember being heartbroken, and I remember, I remember telling my teddy about the— about my Pop's death. And there's a real distinct difference between what, what killed him.

Yes.

And, and my, uh, and my emotional weather. Yes. And I think for me that's the difference between feeling wounded and being wounded.

Yes.

We feel wounded.

Yes, I totally agree with you. We feel wounded. Are we? No, we're not.

But we, we in the Western world, we get confused. We get feelings and, and identity confused all the day, all the time. And it, it's common It's common parlance, isn't it? We don't say, I feel wounded. We say, I am wounded. Yeah. And yet the peaceful, the peaceful soul is unwoundable.

Yes. Simon, I'm sure you've heard that saying also that says, I am are the 2 most important words, because everything else you say after that shapes your reality. And there was a stage in my life where I was very, very conscious because it's so easy. Oh, I'm tired, I'm hungry, I'm down, I'm depressed, I'm restless, I'm anxious. I am. So with, with each of those, I'm declaring, um, you know, my, my state. So to say I am, I am broken, or I am traumatized, I am Yes. I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm very cautious of what I'm saying because I'm listening.

You are.

You know, some, sometimes we think, oh, we just say these things. But you know what? I am listening to what I am saying. And how good is this for me if every day I say I am and then it's followed by something that is some of those lower density type of energies, it's not good. And it's not gonna take me to where I wanna go. Because, you know, if I wanna go to Cape Town, then I'd better make sure that I'm on, on the train and I bought the ticket to Cape Town. I can't fool myself and, you know, be on my way to Durban. Sorry. I'm using Afrikaans, South African cities here. But, but you, you get the drift.

I do.

You know, you, You need to make sure you, you, you on the, on the train heading to the place, the destination where you want to go to.

Fantastic. Thanks, listeners. Thanks, Annemarie.

Pleasure, Simon.

We'll speak to you very soon. Take care. Bye-bye.