Seeing Our Inherent Goodness With Matthew McCall

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Matthew, Matthew McCall. Looking forward to our second conversation. It's like 3 years, over 3 years since the last one for the podcast, Matthew.

Me too, very much so.

Yeah, I, I do though remember the space that we touched right at the end of the, uh, end of the conversation, still sending, uh Nice shivers down my spine, right? Not scared, but just we, we touched somewhere. We touched somewhere pretty deep. Um, do you remember that? Is that just me?

Yeah, no, no, yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's always interesting too, like, just sort of where, where conversations start and what they lead to and kind of the path that gets you there and all of that. And I think especially when you're talking about adoption and, and, or any sort of coming together of individuals with into a family, right? There's, there's such a, there's such a deep and rich emotional component to all of that, that there's, there's a lot of opportunity for, for really, really powerful kind of stuff. So anyway.

And, and it's deep. Yeah. And it's an intentionally deep and not many people want deep. Most people want shallow. Like, we're gonna give it deep. Yeah. Yeah.

I think, yeah. And I think it's an opportunity, right, to like, you know, to find those reasons or those times when it makes more sense to really Explore all that, all that there is within a certain relationship or a certain connection or, or whatever is, um, I don't know, to me, like part of what makes living a human life more interesting because we have that ability to really think in those kind of deeper, more profound sort of ways.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

And that's the magic. And it, it, it, I think that, that for me is, is almost our healing space. The, the peace it's got. There's a, there's a— I was listening to a podcast this morning and the guy was talking about the, the silence behind the silence.

Yep.

Um, and, and it's— but, but it's, it's not a silence with nothing. It's got, it's got a hum, it's got a, a resonance, it's got an electricity. got a vibe about it.

Yeah, yeah, I like that a lot. Yeah, yeah.

So one of the things, I don't know if you've caught on to this, listeners, but one of the things that we've been doing at the moment is revisiting, um, some old friends, reconnected with some old friends. And, and one of the themes that we've got is this, this idea of a pendulum and, and the idea that pendulums have a habit and that's what they do, they swing the swing too far. Before, uh, '93, when, uh, Nancy Verrier came up with the primal wound, there was this notion that, uh, adoption was— what do people call it— rainbows and unicorns.

Yeah.

And, and then, and, and then it's sudden, in those last, in those last 32 years, it swung too far the other way, where we seem to have a a trauma obsession when being trauma-informed, trauma-responsive, but hope and healing and thriving obsessed would, would do us a lot more good, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think that's the thing is like, how do you find the right balance between those two? Like, it's, you know, whenever we kind of swing too far to one of the ends, you You know, if you're if you're too focused on trauma all the time, and you're too focused on that idea that like you know there were so many injuries, there were so many losses, there was so much harm that was done that brought a young person to the place of being adopted, that brought a family to the place of choosing adoption as their as their approach to growing their family. You miss out on the fact that like for one that's not true for everyone, and not true entirely. But you also miss out on like there's all this really wonderful stuff that all. Also is happening, and I think on the other side of that spectrum, there's the same thing, right? If you if you completely ignore that any of those traumas are or could be there, and only focus on no, this is wonderful, and you you go back to focusing on the the rainbows and the and the unicorns, you miss out on on stuff with that as well. And I think to that idea of how do you how do you create more of a a deep and meaningful interaction. Um, you know, that comes again, I think, when you, when you balance those 2, um, ends of the spectrum and sort of come together in the middle to like acknowledge that like, yeah, there, there may be, and, and for many, many people, part of that adoption journey is some harm and, and some trauma and some difficulty and sometimes a lot of that. And there are these beautiful, wonderful, amazing happy, exciting moments. And, and, you know, bringing both of those together, I think, and reconciling those things together just makes all of us better human beings and, and more complete families and all of that kind of good stuff. Yeah.

So where does, where does the rubber hit the road for you on this, Matthew?

I mean, I think a lot of it's just, you know, what's, what's the approach that we take as parents to raising our children and You know, and then beyond that, as providers, like, how do we then support that work within those arenas, right? Like, so if, if we're, you know, everything from like the very beginning of the adoption process for, for children and, and for, for, you know, parents, like, helping to talk about both ends of the spectrum and the good and the bad and the everywhere in between. Because that's the other reality is like most of parenting, any parenting, most of it is like You know, there's a lot of going to five-year-olds, you know, soccer games and watching five-year-olds randomly kick a ball around a field for for an hour is not the most fun, exciting, or engaging thing for most people. It might be cute for a little while, but then you know, just kind of kind of the drudgery of being a parent at some point, kind of a thing. And and it's it's like in you know acknowledging to me all of that stuff that really matters. And I think you know some of that starts with us as professionals that do work with an adoption. You know, making sure that we're. that we are balancing all of those things out. You know, Massachusetts, we do a training that we have to do when parents are getting ready to start their adoption journey and are interested in adopting children through our child welfare system. They go through this training. And, you know, a lot of the focus of that training is on what that adoption journey is for that young person, the histories that they may be coming with, the challenges that may present themselves in that. And there's a lot of focus on the trauma, the big T's and the little t's and everywhere in between. And, and there is some amount of bringing in the good as well. And I think, you know, how do we, how do we emphasize that stuff as much, right? We, we all, as part of the way that we do them, we have, um, adoptive parents, um, come in and, and talk about their experiences, folks that have adopted their kids, you know, recently or many, many years ago. Some of them, their children are now adults. Will come in and talk about what their journey looked like. And I think they, as much as anybody, oftentimes are able to bring in that balance of like, look at like, you know, there's, there's, there is, there's tough stuff in this. And there are so many wonderful, amazing, happy, fun moments that it's really important to hold on to those things too.

What one of the things that that's become clear to me over the last year, 18 months or so, is that this, um, trauma comes from the Greek word for wound, I think.

Mhm.

Uh, and it, it seems to me, having talked to so many different people, that, um, that the, the, the, the wound Uh, you know, on one, on one level, there's a, a wound, perhaps from a psychological perspective, there's a, there's a wound. And yet underneath that psychology, there's a, there's an unwoundable core. Sure.

Yeah. And I think, you know, it's, it's, um, It's hard, right? Because like each individual person comes with their own story and their own experience of those things, right? You can, you know, you see this sometimes in individuals who experience trauma together. You know, you'll have someone that's like, you know, on a bus where it's, it's, you know, there's a big accident and you talk to different people, people that might just be sitting directly next to each other on that bus. That will tell you almost 2 entirely different stories about what that was like for them and what they experienced and what they remember and all of that. And the reality is, like, you know, there are clients and families that I've worked with that have incredible trauma that for them, at least in those moments, in that time that I'm working with them, is very present for them much of the day. And I do think it's important to like, To acknowledge and to be okay with, like if this is where you are right now, that's okay. It's all right that you're experiencing these these difficulties and these challenges. And you know part of the recovery from that is going to be to start focusing on the fact that there is underlying all of that every day good things. And that unfortunately what we end up doing is you know the the you know. The whole concept of like neurons that fire together wire together, right? The more that we think about something, the more that we focus on that something, the more readily we're able to pick up on it and notice it and pay attention to it. And so when you ask that person, you know, how was your day? If they have a very trauma mindset, a very like injury and wounded mindset, then they're going to point out the 5 things that happened that day that weren't great. That same person a year later who might be in a very different space, and they've, they've worked on their mind to get to this place of focusing on on the good that's happening. Those same 5 things may have happened that day that weren't great, but they'll tell you about the 5 best things that happened that day. And, and both of those experiences are true, and, and it's not that one is wrong or incorrect, but which of those 2 is going to give you a more positive outlook on your life? Which of those 2 is going to make your day a better one? Um, you know, and so how do we, how do we start to shift that mindset in that direction? It's really, really, really hard work for some people because they're, they're so ingrained into, for good reason sometimes, so ingrained into thinking about what happened and the trauma of what happened and the fear of that thing happening again, that it can be really hard to lift your head up and notice the good that's happening. And the irony of that, or the challenge in that, is the more that you notice the good, the easier it's going to be for you to see that going forward. And I think that's, you know, the adoptive parents that come and speak on our panel that I'm always the most appreciative of are the ones that do acknowledge, like, yes, there are tough days and hard days. And quite honestly, much of those tough days and hard days are the hard stuff that every single parent faces. Like, it is not easy to raise a teenager. Forget any other history stuff. Forget any other things in their background. Teenagers can be challenging and bring stuff up that's really hard and difficult. For parents to navigate and decide what to do and all of that. But again, if we have this more positive mindset, if we're more focused on the things that are going right in our relationship with our teenager than the things that are going wrong, we have a more positive outlook. And those families are often the ones that will say, yeah, there are these difficult days, but the stuff I choose to focus on is this and this and this. You know, even in the hard stuff, I choose to focus on the best parts of that hard stuff. You know, even when my kid is angry with me, I choose to focus on the fact that they're engaging with me. Even though that engagement might not be something that I particularly enjoy in that moment, it means that they're still connected and they still want a relationship and are still focusing on their relationship with me. You know, obviously not in like a Pollyanna, like, I'm going to gloss over anything bad and pretend like the world is wonderful all the time. But in a way that just focuses on the inherent goodness, you know, that sort of underlying, that underlying state of being that we want to be in, which is very much that, like, we're good and we're okay and things are going to be good and be okay. Yeah.

What helps people see that?

I think some of it is— so some of it is, is, you know, really taking a very intentional approach of like looking at our thinking and noticing what we're paying attention to. And that oftentimes takes good people in their lives, whether it's, you know, a professional that, that they're working with, or it's friends or family members or clergy or whoever it is that they're working with to try to see that. you know, people that are able to point that thinking out for them. You know, certainly there are other ways to do it. There are, there are, you know, books that you can read. There are all that kind of stuff. And then really putting in the hard work, because at first it's not natural, like in anything else that we do, right? Like if I, if I decided to learn, I don't know, if I, if I decided to learn how to, how to knit, you know, at first those movements would be incredibly awkward and unnatural and feel clunky. And I'm sure that I would knit something that looks nothing like the thing I was trying to knit and all of that, um, because at first it doesn't work great. Like, at first when I start to try to focus on the good and, and, you know, the, the sort of purity of, of the moment, um, I'm gonna struggle and fail against that. And so it's, it's being able to put in the hard work to get past those things and start to get to the place where you can actually start to make something really beautiful of it. I also think it, it takes the right environment to do that in. You know, the reality is I can, I can have the best mindset ever to try to work on that, and a lot of really good and helpful friends around me. But if I'm living in an environment where my basic needs aren't being met, or, or, you know, and that includes things like safety and, and a felt sense of belonging and things along those lines, it can be really, really hard to do that work. You know, I have a couple of good friends that do work in prisons as clinicians, and, you know, it's one of the things they often talk about is like they'll, they'll have these clients that are like so ready to start working on the traumas that oftentimes led them into a life that got them to the place where they were arrested. And yet the environment of prison is so counter to what you need in order to be able to do that work that despite their readiness, despite their, you know, clear thinking about what they need to do, it's just impossible to do in that environment because of all the other stuff that's there. And so how do we create that, like, as a society, as individuals, as parents, as all of that? How do we create those, those places for individuals to feel safe enough to work on that stuff? I forget who wrote it. But there was a book. I think the title is Islands of Competence or something along those lines that sort of talked about, like, you know, how do you— for kids with, like, trauma and kids with difficult upbringings, like, what do we do to find those places where those kids feel incredibly competent and, and capable and things along those lines? And I think the same thing for families, like, how do we find that— those places, those moments in which we feel this is an area of competence for us, and then build on that and make sure that we continue to grow those areas out? Because I've got a It's really hard to gain success in really difficult environments. Yeah. And I think that's part of it, right? It's like that overall balance of everything. Like, how do we, how do we not end up too polarized in our approaches to most things? It's, it's usually finding, you know, the relative middle ground that gets us to a better place with that stuff.

Yeah. You make a very interesting point about our environment, and I'm thinking about that social media environment that we're in as well.

Yeah.

Um, you know, we were talking about polarization in politics. Clearly there's a lot of polarization in politics. Clearly that's polarizing people on social media, and we're We need to be mindful, I think, of the vibe of the people around us in social media, especially if we're in groups. Are those groups helping us move forward? Are they helping us focus on growth and shifting? You use a great word, shifting, right? And what came to my mind, so we talked about shifting, we talked about shifting over, over time, you've mentioned. Uh, and the other thing to keep in mind is there is no— another thing that's become very clear to me recently, there is no one primal wound. It is, it is, is, it is a scale.

Yeah, for sure. And it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, um, human beings are just so much more complex than any one aspect of who we are, right? You look at all the The the collective experiences that make up this moment of consciousness that I have right now, like there have been billions and billions of little moments of experience that have brought me to this place. And I think to try to boil it down, like I've certainly had a lot of you know people that you know it's it's this this is the thing this is the moment this is the whatever that's causing this. And it's like not to say that that might not be one of the bigger issues or bigger moments or whatever for somebody. But there's all the surrounding ones that make such a big difference to that. And again, to that point of like individuals that go through very, very similar things, but have very different outcomes, like, why is that? And oftentimes, when you look at it, there's all these other moments that surround it that make the experience of that bad thing look really different to the person or be experienced really different by them. And so, you know, what are we doing for, for creating that kind of stuff? And I think, you know, going back to that idea of like the pendulum, right? Like, you, you know, you go on social media and you look at videos, like you, you see, you know, you see these huge number of like fail videos of people just miserably bombing at whatever the thing is in there, right? And, and sort of the, the sort of joyful mirth that kind of comes from people with that. But on the other side of that spectrum, you see these ones of like people doing these unbelievable, crazy hard things perfectly. And I think, you know, to me, one of the, one of the ones that often, you know, again, like I'll appreciate about it is there are some of those people that do those like perfect videos where they'll show you like, this took me 22 hours to do and umpteen, you know, attempts. And like, that's the reality of what life is like. You get to that perfect whatever, right? That perfect shot or that perfect thing through over and over and over and over again, persisting through things that may be really challenging and at times really fun and engaging and at other times really hard. and at other times really boring. And how do we, how do we find that middle space that is like, you know, that life is good and good things happen, but that doesn't mean life needs to be perfect for good things to happen. It doesn't mean that you need everything to be just right. And it doesn't mean that you need to focus on and work through all of your trauma perfectly to get to that place. It's, it's, I think Acknowledging and really focusing on the balance of those things that becomes really important.

Yes, you used the word persisting there, persistence, and I was thinking about another word, kind of very similar word to me or related word earlier about 10 minutes ago when you were saying something else. I was thinking about patience, you know, patience and persistence. And we don't really live in a society that, that where there's a lot of that around. Everybody's very impatient. Yeah. Well, I mean, don't stick at stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. And not to sound like, you know, I'm, I'm an old person because it, I think it's really easy when you make statements like this to be, but like, you know, you look at like the pace of modern life right now. Like, you know, I'm, you know, I was talking to somebody, I forget, uh, even who right now, but, um, about like the ability to have a cell phone in your hand that instantly answers any question you've ever had or could have in a way that, like, I know when I was a kid, like, I would wonder about stuff, and, and the only way for me to know about it was to remember it long enough to, like, go to the library and look it up on an actual, like, hard copy encyclopedia. You know, versus right now where any, anything I could ever want to know is at the palm of my hand. And I think There are wonderful and beautiful and amazing things that that brings us. But one of the places where you can see a challenge in it is that ability to be patient with things and to understand that like stuff takes time and is hard to do. And even in people who seem to have mastered the thing, those individuals will still tell you it's, it's an incredible amount of practice. It's an incredible amount of work. It's an incredible amount of patience with yourself as a person to get there. I, uh, for a few years taught some meditation stuff, and, and, um, one of the things that, you know, like one of the basic skills that you learn in that is, is about sort of focusing your mind on something, right? So commonly you focus your mind on the breath and breathing in and out. Um, and, you know, you get new students that come to learn that and they get really frustrated really quickly with themselves about like, you know, my mind keeps wandering and it keeps going in different directions and And, and a lot of the teaching around that is like, right, you need to just be really patient with your mind and understand that like it is doing what it naturally does. It naturally gets distracted and goes places. And like, I've had the very good fortune of knowing like some, you know, some pretty amazing meditators that, um, you know, particularly Tibetan, um, uh, monks and things like that that have been some really, really skilled, really, you know, long-term dedicated practitioners to learning how to do this. And they say the same stuff, you know, when you talk to them about it, they're like, oh no, my, my mind wanders all the time. Like, I, I've just learned to be much more patient with it when it happens. And that way I don't get distracted by being frustrated with the fact that my mind is doing what it normally does. I just very quickly go like, oh, I'm, I'm focusing on that noise outside. I'm just gonna bring it back to my breath. And, and I think for, for many of us, like, That that need to fill all of the spaces and all of the time and all of the everything with activity, and you know takes away from the the opportunity to learn how to just be and be okay in those moments and and be patient with the fact that like it's not all going to happen immediately and right away. And and you know again I think that that that's just really really hard work for that's hard work for anybody to learn how to do. And I think especially if you've got some some trauma stuff or some your stuff or whatever that's coming into your mind and into your space a lot, the need to get that out of there is so great and understandably so difficult for somebody to do. Yeah.

I heard this phrase a while ago called psychological flexibility. And the way it was described on this podcast I was listening to, I thought it was great and how it would How I would kind of, um, describe, uh, I give an example of psychological flexibility on the back of what you've just said. I would talk about the frustration and then being frustrated about the frustration. Yeah. So you're trying to meditate.

Yep, exactly.

Yeah, you're trying to meditate, you're trying to be peaceful, and then the voice keeps on coming in and, uh, and disturbing you, right? And then you get So you get frustrated because you're trying to be calm and empty your mind and beginner's mind and Buddha stuff, all that sort of, right? So the frustration comes in and then, then the frustration comes in about the frustration.

Yes.

And then the frustration mounts, builds and balloons, builds and builds. And when I think about that, I also think about my own worrying about worrying.

Yes.

Right. So it tends to, as a guy I listen to sometimes called Michael Neal says, we become a moron, right? We've got more on our mind.

Yep, yep, yep, yep.

The frustration sits on top of the frustration.

Exactly.

Frustration.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think it's easy to fall into that. Again, I think it's easy for any parent to fall into that. But I think, you know, particularly when, when The, it, the adoption process creates extra layers to that parenting complexity, right? Like, you know, I've definitely been in those moments where I'm like, I, you know, especially when, like, I, when my daughter was really young, and I would have moments of like, you know, she's having a temper tantrum or meltdown, and like, in my mind, I'm like, I know what I need to do right now. I need to stay calm, and I need to just wait her out and not get frustrated and whatever. And yet I get frustrated, and and you know it builds upon itself because why can't I just stay calm and just relax? Kind of a thing. And and I think that same kind of a thing in in many different ways will manifest itself. That you know again to that point, like I actually really like that sort of idea of just sort of the frustration about the frustration building upon itself kind of a thing in a way that. distracts us from the really good stuff that's also going on a lot of the time, because I'm so focused on worrying about things and wondering and needing to know what caused something that I end up losing sight of the stuff that's going on all the time. And I, and I think that that can be part of it too, is like, you know, how do you, how do you distinguish in anything, but especially when you're talking about your own children, like, how do you distinguish what caused that? You know, I mean, you'll see this in families that have a child biologically, right? Where there's like a conversation of like, you know, is that my genetic material or your genetic material that's causing this kid to do this kind of a deal? And, and the reality is, even, even in that case, parents also understand that like, well, it's actually not just you and I. There's like all these other people, all these other influences that are changing how our kid sees the world and how they interact within it. And you bring just that extra layer of complexity when you're talking about a child that you've adopted or moved through an adoptive process with that, like, where and how do I understand these behaviors? Is this— are they doing this because of something I did? Are they doing this because of something somebody else did? And who was that somebody else? And what was it? I think it's a natural thing for us to wonder about. And a lot of the time, honestly, it's kind of like it's It's not a question you can answer. It's a bit of a fool's error to try to, and in reality it doesn't really matter. Like, the reality is what happened is in the past, and all we can try to do is to move forward in a different kind of a way. In the same way that, like, you know, if, if I break my arm and I go and get an X-ray and they look at my arm and it's broken, the story about how it got broken is interesting to the, to the doctor, maybe. But the reality is, to fix it, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if I got it crushed in a doorway or hit with a hammer or whatever. The repair— I mean, it's an oversimplification, but like the repair process is going to look the same. The need to fix or to do things is going to look the same. And in similar fashion, I think with parenting, like trying to figure out who or what or where things came from is so complicated that like people write books about it, and even they don't really know, you know.

It's a rabbit hole. Yeah, it's a rabbit hole. We, uh, that it's probably one of those things that we know that we don't need to disappear down that rabbit hole. And yeah, right.

But it's, it's natural to, um, you know, I know like in, in some of our programs where, where we work with kids with pretty significant trauma stuff, like one of the big things that we've started looking at over the last, I don't know, 10 years maybe-ish, um, is, uh, like how do we teach our adult staff how to play with kids again? Because for many of them, like, for many of them, many, especially our newer staff, like, oftentimes aren't that far removed from being kids in the first place. Like, they're 21, 22, 23 years old, but they've forgotten how to play with a kid. They don't have them necessarily themselves or whatever. And so that, like, joyful, imaginative play stuff that kids need to do, sometimes our staff have forgotten how to do it. And so there's, like, whole trainings that exist that, like, help you learn how to do those kind of things again. And I think that's the, to me, that balance is like, if you're going to spend, you know, if you're going to spend an hour reading about trauma and where trauma comes from, you know, you're going to spend an hour reading like Ghosts from the Nursery, spend an hour reading about like how to create the most fun and engaging time with your kid that you can. And make sure that you're doing both of those things together. You know, it's one of the things oftentimes when I'll work with families and kids will be getting in trouble for something or whatever, you know, one of the first gut instincts is what do we take away from this kid? And it's not to say that there should not be consequences for it, but, but to me anyway, oftentimes what's more important is to really look at what is the, what is the value that this thing has for this child? And, and if that value is really big, it may be a thing to use, but maybe it's a thing to use not by taking away, but a thing to use by, by augmenting or increasing or Um, you know, supporting the problem that this kid's having. So if I'm, you know, if I'm, if I'm not doing homework and I love to, to play a sport, or I love to have this job in the community that I have, or whatever, um, rather than taking that away from the kid, how do we use that thing that they really love and enjoy to help build up, um, the area that they're struggling in?

Mm-hmm.

Um, so that again, that kid isn't in that downward spiral of, right, everything is bad. I'm not doing my homework. I can't play basketball anymore. I don't, you know, whatever it is kind of a deal.

Um, yeah. Um, you, interesting point, you know, going down this, uh, this idea, the, you know, the medical model, uh, of fixing. Um, I think, uh, because a lot of like mental health stuff comes from physical health stuff.

Yes.

And, and, uh, the, but then somebody decided it would be a good idea to, rather than talk about mental disease. Um, they talk about mental health.

Yep.

Yes, it's still really—

Yes, exactly.

Disease.

I mean, yes, no, we've, we've given it a nicer label but not really changed the activity oftentimes.

Yeah. Um, and I was just thinking about the, the, the most significant thing that I've learned from adoptive parents is savvy, the savviest ones, is it's not about fixing the kids, it's about growing our capacity.

Yep. No, I like that a lot. And I think, you know, again, like, you know, when you look at like the, the underpinnings of, of psychology and things along those lines, right? Like, we, we've known, we, we've, for, you know, just humankind has known, frankly, for a long time. Like, the more you focus on something, the more you're going to get it. Um, so, you know, if you're focusing all your time on your trauma, then that's— you're just gonna have that trauma be more present, um, in everything that you're doing. If you're, if you're focusing, you know, as much of your energy as you can on the goodness and all of that, the better. And I think, you know, again, to that, that point at the start, like, the idea that at our core, what are we? Are we these flawed and broken things that have had all of these negative things happen to us and creates this human being that is at its core broken? Or are we in reality these really, like, amazing creatures that are capable of so much resilience and so much joy and happiness and love? That there are ways that if we focus on those parts of ourselves more, will we grow it? And again, I think you have to be really careful not to, not to say to someone who's got trauma that like, oh, well, you just need to get over it. Like, it's not that message at all. It's not the message of, you know, if you just stop focusing on it, it wouldn't be as present. I do think that there's more opportunity for parents to consider that as they talk about their kids, um, that, you know, that kid might not be as focused on it, but if I'm always bringing it into the environment for them, then it's going to become their focus more and more. But, but again, I think that the, the important bit in it is, is to find that balance between those 2 things of like, I'm going to acknowledge the fact that this trauma exists, and we're going to really focus a lot on all the places and times and spaces in which it doesn't exist for you. And how do we strengthen those while at the same time recovering from these other ones? Um, yeah.

Yeah. Because if we think they're broken, they're gonna think they're broken.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, and, and again, I think, you know, like, The need for, for the want and the desire to find a cause for a challenge that your kid is dealing with. And in finding that cause to then figure out, oh, this is how we fix this, this is what we're going to do to make it better, is a natural and normal and understandable thing for any parent that loves their kid to have. If I can find the cause, then I can fix it and we can make it go away. Um, and while, while that may be true, the other approach to that is the cause doesn't matter because it's in the past. Um, the only thing that matters now is what's the cause to help this young person be happy, and how can we find those things and focus more on that stuff? Um, and, and, you know, being able to find the right balance between those, between those two things for kids and take them where they are. I mean, that's the other piece of it for me is like You know, again, there may be moments at which for that child or for that family or whatever, that right now it really is important to talk about my trauma stuff because that's so present for me in some way. It's coming up. You know, I had a kid that I worked with many years ago who had a trauma on a particular holiday, and it was a really, really horrendous thing that happened. And every time that holiday would come up, that trauma would come up for them. And it was an understandable thing like, oh, you know, this holiday is coming. It's going to trigger some of these memories. And so for quite a while, part of the thing was like, okay, well, we know this is coming. How do we help prepare for the difficulties and challenges that are going to come? And as he started to get better control over those things, the, the focus became less on how do we control the negative in this to how do we create a more, a different experience for you of this holiday so that instead of focusing on the bad stuff, which we needed to do for a while to get to a place where that didn't turn into this huge, ugly, horrible experience for you. Instead of focusing on that, now we can focus on how do we actually make this an enjoyable time for you? How do we make it something where you feel connected and safe and in relationship with people in a way that, that has a more positive implication to what that holiday is for you? And, and I think that's the part where sometimes we— the swing gets stuck. You know, we focus on, on down on, on reducing and eliminating the trauma without focusing enough on what we're going to replace that with. And, and how do we, how do we build both of those things at the same time? Um, kind of a deal.

Yeah. I think there's, there's, there's genius, uh, as you were discussing, exemplifying that just now, it reminded me of something you said like 5 minutes ago that I think is genius, right? So we've got an hour, right? We can either read a book about trauma or we can read a book about playing with our kids, or I guess you could even just play with your kid. But that, in that simplicity there, there's something very strong for me.

Yeah, no, I get that. I think it's It's also just, I mean, honestly, it's what makes being a parent, it's what makes being a kid fun, right? Like, you know, I certainly had things in my own life growing up and stuff like that, that weren't the best experiences. But I also remember, you know, I was just talking to my mother the other day about going over to my grandmother's house and what an amazing and fun space that was for me to go to. She lived in like a little place in the country and it was you know, just, I don't know, a very sort of special place to go. And so, like, you know, which of those 2 memories are better for me to focus on? Is it better to focus on that, that fun, enjoyable space that I had, or is it better to focus on one of the things that maybe weren't as pleasant? Um, and, you know, finding, finding the time for both is hard. And so then you got to think about, well, which, which am I going to invest more of my time in? And what's the best outcome for me in investing those times? Yeah.

Does this, does this broken, this word broken, does that come from religious circles? Do you know?

My guess. I mean, I think that, I think that there's a lot of that. Like, I mean, you see it a lot in religious communities anyway, right?

This idea that we're all broken.

Yes. Well, and the idea of like, what are we at our core? Right? At our core, are we something? And it's— and, and you do see this in different world religions, right? You see somewhere at your core something is fundamentally wrong with us that we have to work against as human beings in order to, you know, get to a better place kind of a thing. And then you have other ones where, where there is ideas that like, no, at your core you are perfect and wonderful and great, and it's really just about learning to let go of maybe some of the negative stuff in there to, to remain in that. And I, you know, I think, I think that there's probably a lot of places in which different things come from, right? I mean, you, you look at like the educational system, like, you know, for, for how long was the focus of education, you know, you need to sit quietly and listen to what I tell you to do and just repeat it over and over again. And that, that was the model for education for how many generations of individuals. And even now we're just starting to learn, like, actually there, there's a lot of good in giving children permission to like explore and play and gain skills through experience. You know, I worked for an organization for a while called Outward Bound, which does like experiential learning kind of stuff. And, you know, we— the program that I, that I worked in for them was on Thompson Island, which is in Boston. And we often had programs where we would bring kids from the city of Boston out onto the island to learn some different stuff. And one of the things that we worked on a lot was math and science. And, and one of the best ways that we did that was we had, we had an estuary, you know, a place where like saltwater would come in and then create like a little saltwater pond almost kind of. And we would have the kids go down and like, here's a bucket, go and like collect different types of creatures. And then we're gonna do the math to figure out like what percentage of crabs to whatever you found. And kids, you know, we talked to teachers that were like, you know, amazed that like this kid who hated math and hated science would go out and do this thing and do the math and knew how to do it and did it well. And you'd have the teacher like, I don't get it. Like, this kid hates doing division. They hate doing multiplication. How are they doing it here? And it's like, well, they're learning in a different way. They're not, they're not being asked to sit and look at numbers that have no meaning and respond to that and, and just rote react to it. they're being given a space and they're being given a space where they're outside and in a beautiful location and doing some really fun stuff. Of course they're doing better with it in those environments. And I, and I think, you know, to extrapolate that out to the stuff that we do as we're parents and raising our children, um, to the best extent that we can, right? Like, we, we all have different resources and, and time and availability and all of that. And I think, you know, as parents, It behooves everyone to just be really patient with like there's only so much anyone can be expected to do, and unless you have all the resources in the world, you know you have to be patient with the fact that you're not going to be able to do every single thing the best way that you ever wanted to. But I think the more that we find those times and create those spaces for our children, the better, because that's you know that's the stuff that. You know, that's the stuff I remember 40 years after being a kid and hold on to are those, you know, those moments of joy and fun and silliness and goofiness and some of the moments of sadness and anger and all of that kind of stuff. But, you know, we certainly can do a lot to intentionally create those opportunities with our kids.

I went on an Outward Bound course. Yeah, I don't know whether the UK and the US people are still together or not, or whether it was 2 different—

No, it's an internet. There's a lot of affiliation around the world actually.

Yeah. Because what struck me was the culture. So there's that phrase, I think I mentioned this to somebody else a couple of weeks ago. I heard this great phrase, Culture eats strategy for breakfast.

Yes. Yeah.

And so I'd been in the Scouts and done all the map making, you know, the map making and all that sort of stuff, orienteering. And then in one sort of culture and you, I would, I thought that that was kind of a, it was a more encouraging culture than a classroom culture, right? But then I went on this Outward Bound course. And we were doing the same stuff, but we were doing it in an outward-bound culture.

Yep.

Which was another 4 steps on in terms of support, its supportive thing. And that, that got me thinking about the culture of a, the culture of a household.

Yep. I think the culture of the household, I think again, like what culture all of us are creating around family, around adoption, around all of that. Yeah, there's a lot of really rich opportunity to like look and the thing with like an Outward Bound, like, you know, having worked with them for quite a while, there was so much intentionality that went into that. There was so much like, you know, we would come to the folks that facilitated stuff, like we would come together every year at the start of the season and do like a long weekend together. And some of that was learning technical stuff. Like, they're definitely worth it, you know, like making sure that we still remembered how to belay correctly, because obviously things like that are super important. But so much of it, like, in moments of like where it was clear that we were working on it, and in other moments where, as I had been there longer and got to see behind the curtain a little bit more, I was like, oh, you guys set that whole thing up. We didn't even know that what you were doing was creating an opportunity for us all to get to know each other in a different different way or whatever. It just seemed like this natural thing that just happened. But there was so much intentionality put to how do we create these moments that become the culture of who and what we want to be, and, and thus pass that along when we're working with the young people that we work with, or with the adults that we work with, whoever you're working with for that. And I think the same thing within families, like, what are we doing to lift ourselves out of the day-to-day drudgery of just getting through today to tomorrow Which there are some days you just got to do, right? But how do you lift your head up and sort of think about, well, what, what do I want the culture of my family to be? What are the things I want to be sure to like bring into our environment so that we are doing these things on a regular basis? Because I know that that's going to bring more joy, more connection, more relationship, more of all of that. And that's the stuff at the end of the day, like the more connected and in community we feel, the more positively we see things. It's, it's, you know, the One of the the when you look at like research on on who recovers well in therapy, one of the bigger indicators for whether someone will have a positive outcome to therapy is the nature and and richness of the relationship between the therapist and the client. Not about how good I am at cognitive behavioral therapy or how good I am at EMDR or whatever. It's about like do you believe that I believe in you and do you believe that? I can help you and we can work through this together. Because if you believe that, there's a much better chance you're gonna have a positive outcome than whether I'm the best tactician at something on earth. And that's again, that's all culture, right? That's all about the contract, the social engagement between you and I kind of a thing. And the same thing is true with, you know, and with our kids and how we raise them. Yeah.

It's about the relationship, isn't it? I think. Yeah, relationship. And I've heard similar kind of stuff where the relationship, uh, the space that's created in the relationship between the therapist and the, and the client is the number one thing.

Mm-hmm.

It is, it is all about the, the atmosphere. I've been, I've been watching a few TV shows, uh, recently where you see the, you, you, you see the, the, And these— this has been both British and American, um, uh, TV shows where the, the client argues with the therapist. And, uh, and then there's another one, a British one, uh, was on— I think it's on Netflix now, um, a British thing that should— no, it's Paramount actually. It's just come out, um, where it's couples therapy and, and the the bloke keeps on skipping it because he's got other stuff on, you know, like trying to, um, and it's fascinating stuff, especially the arguing bit, you know, arguing with you, arguing with the therapist. I just— Well, that's a symbol that surely that's a signal that the relationship has Isn't where it needs to be, right? From one side or the other.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, and I think even within that, like, what's the nature of the argument or the disagreement, right? Like, is it done in, you know, and similar again to like between you and your children or whatever? Like, there are times when my daughter and I argue where it is like, it is a productive, engaging conversation between 2 people with different views. that respect and love each other. And there are times when we have argued where that stuff has disappeared somewhere into the background and it's just, I'm mad at you and you're mad at me and we're not even really talking about the thing we were, we were arguing about originally. We're just, right, kind of a thing. And, and I think again, like when we, when we think about how we are as parents and, and how we're raising our children and finding that balance between acknowledging the loss that may have existed or the, or the harm that may have existed that brought this child to me. Through adoption, finding that ability to focus on developing the positive relationship and maintaining that positive relationship is going to— you're going to have to rely on building intentional time where you are enjoying each other and having fun and doing silly things and, and, you know, laughing and being silly and also doing like hard things sometimes that have, you know, really good outcomes. Kind of a deal, but that's the way you build that relationship that's more resilient to the bad or the difficult or the loss that has happened. Because that's the stuff ultimately you fall back on. There's a guy, Charlie Applestein, who wrote a book called No Such Thing as a Bad Kid. And one of my favorite metaphors— he has a lot of metaphors— but one of my favorite metaphors from him is about that child development is like building a foundation on your house. You put it in one brick at a time. Every time you tell your kid you love them, every time you change their diaper, every time they have a positive interaction with you, you're putting in a brick into that foundation. And the more bricks you build, the more solid and steady a foundation you have, so that when there are storms and the wind is blowing and all of this other stuff, that house is sitting on such a solid foundation that it can weather those things and still be a warm, safe, dry place for someone to live in. Um, and that same idea of like, how do we, how do we grow intentional relationships with our children that focus on, um, every interaction I can having it be a positive thing, every interaction I can having it be a joyful, wonderful moment? Because those are the things that are going to make the difficult, challenging stuff that came and/or will come, um, you know, more manageable, more More solvable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brilliant. That feels like a great place to bring it in, Matthew.

You bet.

Yeah. Uh, thank you, listeners. Thank you, Matthew.

We'll speak to you very soon.

Take care. Bye-bye.