Thriving With Joy With Marcia Earhart

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Marcia, Marcia Earhart. Looking forward to our conversation today, Marcia.

I am too. I'm pretty excited about it, Simon.

Yeah, fantastic. Why? What, what's the, what's the excitement?

I love it. You— I enjoyed meeting you and I just, yes, I really valued our time together before when we met and I just think there's a lot that we can, uh, dialogue and, uh, unpack together.

Yeah, yeah. So let's, let's, let's do that then. Um, let's unpack thriving. What, what does thriving mean to you, Matia?

Oh, living in the fullness of everything we were created to be, uh, not leaving anything out, uh, and, and doing it With excitement and with joy.

Yeah, that's pretty big.

But that's thriving to me. Yeah, it is big. Thriving. Yes. Surviving is so the opposite. I mean, and so when I think of thriving, I just think of overcoming, of warring forward and just having exuberance of life.

Yeah. So where does that come from for you? Where does your exuberance come from?

Mine comes from my relationship with the Lord Jesus. I have a very strong faith and I just, oh my goodness. I mean, the things that I have been able to do in my own life, not enough my own strength, but because of him. And so I value thriving.

Yeah.

I understand it from where having, you know, situations that you could just survive, but I'm not one. that I'm willing to accept just surviving. Yeah, based on my faith, I know I get to thrive. I know I get to soar again. I know I get to live in the fullness. And I don't want to leave anything out. Simon, when I go, I want the Lord to go, you used it all, you know, and you did it well.

Yeah. I, um, I was chatting to somebody a couple of weeks ago and asked them how they were. And they said, terrific. You know, um, and, and it's pretty rare that people say that sort of stuff in, in, in— maybe, maybe in my world, maybe not in everybody's world, I don't know. Here in the north of England, a lot of people are, not bad, not bad.

Right.

And I'm like, I'm thinking inside, is that the best? And, and so is that the best you can manage today? And that's, that's tricky, like, you know. Um, well, that's—

it's interesting because you said, is that the best? We raised our kid— there's good, better, best. And we actually gave them examples of what it is to just be good, what it is to be better, what it is to be best. So if, you know, if I came up to you and let's say as a child and I go, hey, hey, Mr. Simon. Okay, that's good. Hey, Mr. Simon, how's your day? That's better. Hey, Mr. Simon, how is your day going? It is so good to see you. I'm excited to have this time with you. That's the best.

Yeah.

Because you've really focused on that person, not on you. And, um, I think our culture has lost a sense of best. I think there's a complacency, there's a comfortableness. It's, it's just okay to be good. I don't want to just be in good. I want to be in best.

But these guys are way behind that. They're not bad. They're not bad. And I will often make a joke about this because it's just, it's my, this is the, what the response I get from guys at the swimming pool, right? So I go swimming most lunchtimes and they will say, not bad. And I will say something like, It's catching, isn't it? And they go, what? What? I said, this not baditis, it's catching. So I'm, instead of telling them, oh, is that the best you can do or anything, or, you know, I was drawing their attention because I think it can be a cultural thing, can't it? It can be a cultural thing where—

Sure.

Well, the The culture can be good, better, best, or it can be not bad. It's to do with a particular space, a particular culture, and you were— you've tried to— or you create a culture of good, better, best, and the guys at the swimming pool have got a culture of not bad.

Yeah, but I mean, I think again, I think that is reflective of where we are culturally.

Yeah.

I mean, we have to, I think we, we first, we know that we were created for best, not just good. Um, I feel like I was created for best, so I want to be best. Um, and that's a, that's every day, you know, living in that space and expecting, I live expectant, Simon. And, and then I have my part that I need to do. I think, again, we're in a culture where most people don't want to do things that, and especially hard things, because if we're really honest, if I'm not thriving, I may need to look at why I'm not. Right?

Yeah. And then we're going to blame something, are we?

Oh, we could. Uh, because unless we're really honest and introspective, we We're willing to ask ourselves the hard question, why am I just at this point? And what is it within me that's not allowing me to go into that next place of expectance and living above and beyond? Um, just, it's not bad. Yeah.

I'm one of, one of my favorite mentors. I haven't seen him for a while, actually. Uh, guy called, uh, Richard. He, he runs the Ministry of Inspiration. That's pretty good. That's a pretty good gig, right? Ministry of Inspiration. Um, and you ask him how, how, you know, how you do it. He says, uh, he says, I'm amazing. And then he says, but I'm having, uh, an SH1T day. Right. So he's, he's, um, he's distinguishing, he's discriminating between who he is and what's going on in his, in his world. So he's kind of— you use the word soaring, you know, he's, he's soaring despite the culture.

Amen.

Or despite the sort of day that he's having.

Yes. I don't want someone to keep me from soaring. I'm not going to let you keep me from soaring. No, no, no, no.

And yet there's been some dips along your way, right?

Many dips. Absolutely. We've, we've dipped into the valley many times. We walked through the shadow of death multiple times in our life. Yes, sir. We've had, you know, I've had, I would say grief is a friend to me. Grief is a friend to me. I, um, had 17 losses by the time I was 18. And then in the last 11 years, we've lost 2 of our oldest children tragically.

So how, how did grief become a friend to you?

Well, it started when I was 3, and it just kind of continued throughout my elementary, middle school, and high school years. And my parents really taught me how to grieve well. They set an example of how to grieve. And so I, I learned how to embrace it and how to incorporate it in my life. I think that's why people struggle so much with grief, because grief evokes a lot of pain, and we don't want to feel pain. We don't want to feel That rawness, that, that excruciating ripping off of the skin. And it can be, and it is. And but I believe that if we can become friends with it, understanding that in that place is where I actually can Come to terms, learn how to express my pain, uh, and be healed in my pain. Because we're going to grieve. There are going to be multitude. And I'm not just talking about a loss of a person. I'm talking about there's losses. All losses produce grief. Loss of job, loss of dreams, loss of friends, loss of what we Really thought we'd be at a certain age here, there, whatever. Loss of even our health. So it produces grief. So if we understand that grief is not our enemy, grief is something that we can incorporate into our life positively, healthily, then I believe we can manage it. In the sense where it actually evokes the healing and we can continue to live in the vibrance of who we were created to. So I want to kind of touch on— I believe there's a spirit of grief that one can become consumed in that defines them, or one can grieve with hope. I grieve with hope, Simon. And people who have a spirit of grief It defines them and they don't have healing in that grief space. And you, they could be triggered very quickly back to that scenario, back to that pain, that loss that they've experienced. And you may feel it just happened to them yesterday when in essence it could have been 10, 15, 20 years ago. But for me and my faith, I believe that Christ came so that he could bear that raw, vulnerable, visceral pain that rips our heart open, that feels like we've been shredded into pieces. And for me, I, I come into his presence and give it to him. And in that place, um, and I feel like what happens with grief is if we really are honest and we allow ourselves to make friends with this in the way of incorporating whatever that is into our life, then Grief and sorrow become intermingled. And there's, there's value to both, where you're never going to have, I believe, a life experience after certain situations where there's not going to be a commingling of that. And it's okay. So that I may feel some sense of sorrow, but I can also experience Abundant joy. And so, yes, I can give myself permission. Yeah, I'm feeling this way and I'm going to pause right now and I'm going to give myself permission to go on and express and experience this. But I'm also going to allow myself the joy of this moment. Um, and I'll give an example because I think it's important for an audience to understand concretely what we're talking about. So my son passed, and so the first wedding we went to was, um, one of my son's good friends. And there was sorrow at the fact, one, he wasn't present. He would, he would have been there. He wasn't there. Um, he wouldn't be having his own wedding. He wouldn't be having those things. And so acknowledging That's not going to be a reality. But I'm here to celebrate the marriage of dear friends, their son and their— his wife-to-be, and to celebrate all that is for them. So there's that duality. And it was a joyful time. It was a celebratory time, but it also was one that was marked with sorrow. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Um, I want to take you back a bit to— it's, to me, it seems like it's, it's embracing grief rather than trying to push it away, which seems like it's a, um, a, a Buddhist— it seems like a Buddhist thing to me that I've heard of, you know, that, uh, did the Buddha say that Or something about suffering, or suffering is resistance, something like that. And what, what, what's a Christian take on that?

Well, I think, I think for a Christian, grief is— we grieve with hope. We don't, we don't— I think that's why it's not to be resisted. If we, you know, there's a book called Lamentations in the Old Testament. Lamenting is that we are, we are longing for restoration of what was. And there's a lamenting that's very different than grieving because we want things to be restored. We want things in its fullness. But to grieve is to release, to acknowledge there's pain, but then to release that.

Mm-hmm.

And to come to terms that I have hope. I have hope, even though, you know, in those moments, there are aspects, and we may die. And I do mean we personally may die of who we are in that moment, how we are. We won't return to that person again. But here's the beauty. That's okay. That's part, I think, of the embracing Is that's okay. But just like the caterpillar that goes in the cocoon, I can emerge into a newness of being a new version of me. It goes back to good, better, best. So I'm going to be a different version, a new version. And in that moment, that will become my new, better, best version. Yeah.

What, what, what can you bring? What does it mean to you in, in terms of, you know, you're talking about— so far we've been talking about, and we haven't said this, I'm— we haven't asked you about this and said this to the listeners, right? So, but you've been talking about your adoptive son, the, the death of your adoptive son, right?

One was not adopted and one was. I lost one in 2014 and I lost one in 2019. Yes, I had an adoptive son. We have 3 adopted children out of 5 of our children. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, how does, how does grief, what does grief mean for you from a, or from a perspective of, uh, an adoptee's loss of his or her birth mom?

Oh, it's so real. I mean, we, we, we talked through those losses Especially for our older sons. They were 6 and 4 when they came in. Actually, their mother had kept them and she walked in and put them into an adoption agency. So they knew her fully. And so the sense of rejection, the sense of abandonment, the grief, and I sat with them and we talked. I let them cry. They were angry. I, you know, we, we walked through those emotions with them. There's— I think when we feel the sense of rejection of someone, especially as a child, they don't have the ability to understand that it's really not anything you did. It's not because of who you are. And so we have to— I think for that situation, we have to really come in and talk in terms of what is true. There were situations your mom obviously felt she could not raise you any longer. So what you knew all of a sudden was abandoned. And to acknowledge, and for them to have words, and for us— and we didn't hide any, we talked about this. This was an ongoing— it wasn't like we talked about it once and it was shoved and piled away. This is an ongoing processing as they're growing up, as, as life is happening. And as— and, you know, and for us, Simon, we talked about the beauty of being adopted into God's family, that I'm adopted. I'm adopted into— because I accepted Jesus, that I'm adopted because the blood of Jesus. So I explained what that adoption looks like as a believer and the beauty, and that our son, they were chosen. they were chosen to be adopted. And so, you know, we, we did correlations, and we would use scripture, and we would use analogies. And, you know, we— they ask questions. And, and my oldest really had a harder time processing this because he really was the one responsible for his siblings. So The sense of abandonment and rejection took a different side for him because she didn't give up the baby sister. And so the question is, why not her but me? And isn't that the question so many of us ask? Why that? Why not them? Why me? Why? And so There was never a time where it wasn't okay to have these conversations and to process, because healing is essential in all of us. And we wanted healing in those very wounded places where he didn't know where he belonged anymore. And even though with his biological mother he did not feel safe, I mean, he shared that, um, he was exposed to a lot of things. That's what he knew. It's what he knew. So we go based on, even though it's what we know, it is important to be safe. It's important to be An environment where you're loved, where you can be loved on, where you can be affirmed and validated in who you are. And I have to share at 26, it would have been our last Christmas with him before he got murdered. He was with our family. And it was a very tender, very sweet time together because Mark ran a lot in his life in the sense of he didn't want to face a lot of the pain even though he was feeling it. And so he put himself in some very dangerous situations. Because when we run, we're trying to find a place of belonging, and we don't always run to the right places. And that's what he was doing. And so there was more pain that came in his life, but he sat with us this particular Christmas Eve, and he said— and he was getting ready to have his own son. He was— they— he, um, They were expecting their first child. And he said, I want to thank you for unconditionally loving me. I don't know how you could have done that because I really made life very hurtful and painful for y'all. And yet you never gave up. And there were a lot of things that he shared throughout his journey. We listened, a lot of tears. And of course, you know, he wanted to ask for forgiveness. And we said, honey, you've already been forgiven. We know the pain. And we prayed for you to have healing. Because you've experienced things that most adults Would not understand, and that you've allowed yourself to come to a place in your journey where you've introspectively looked in, looked at your choices, looked at where it led you. You're taking responsibility, and you're choosing. To walk into a place where healing is allowed now and to embrace that you are fully loved. You always were loved. You've always been valued. But there had been a cathartic shift for him, Simon. And we did talk and we did— we were always— but now I want to make it clear, we We were not enablers. We were not. And there's a difference in being present with someone versus enabling them. So we were present, but we did not enable wrong decisions, poor behaviors. We didn't bail anybody out of poor decisions. There are consequences when we choose certain things. And he really valued that. I mean, that's one of the things he talked about that I, you know, his appreciation Because if we had bailed him out, he would not have come to the place at that crossroads for himself. And we have to let people do their journey. We can be supportive. It doesn't mean we give a license to it, but we can be supportive and love them well.

So I want to take, take you back, um, to the start of that segment. Um, he, he— I got a feeling that he was pushing away.

Always.

Rather than, than embracing. He wasn't embracing Goofy.

No, he did not. He, he was angry that he was forsaken by his mom, rightfully so. He was He was actually five. He turned six in the process after she had given him up. He wanted the love, but would not allow himself to receive our love because there was there was an internal argument going on. Why would you these strange people honestly? I mean, this would be. We've talked about this. Love me when my own biological mother— because he felt she didn't love him at this point. Why would you love me? Why would you take me in? Why would you? What makes this different? Because she turned on me. How do I know you're not going to do that too? They're real questions. They're real feelings and they're valid. And all we can say is, We love you. You're our son. You're always going to be our son. No matter what you do, it's not going to change who— how we love you. However, you know, we— there's a standard, and we want to encourage you. We want you to be healed. But yes, he pushed, and he was angry, and he caused dissension, great dissension within our home. Because he wanted division, and he created division as much as he could. Now, he was not successful, like, in, in with separating my husband and I, and come— but he did everything he could to cause that division. And he even said, there was a time in my life I really wanted to hurt everyone, and I wanted everyone hurting. Well, when you're hurting, you want other people to feel the hurt that you're And that's what he wanted. And a lot of his anger came out on me as his mom, because where who was he really angry with? His biological mother. So he deflected all that hatred and anger and to me, because my husband's like, "I don't under what in the world." And I said, because his own biological mother has failed him, and he sees me as the same woman. That's going to fail him over and over and over again. So he's deflecting all that to me. I get it.

Yeah, I mean, he was trying to get— he was trying to— he was testing his barriers. What, what wouldn't you accept? I mean, that's what I'm getting.

I'm, you know, correct. Absolutely, absolutely.

And, and, and that lasted— that lasted 2 decades, right, until he had the We adopted them, and he was—

he just turned 6. And, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it lasted, you know, really until his 20s. Things started changing in his 20s for him, probably around 20, 21. Uh, we started seeing changes, uh, around that time. And, and, and when my son passed in 2014, My first son. That was a real painful, painful place for Mark because Mark had really pushed his siblings away, and Sterling, my oldest, was one who loved well, and they had finally come to a place because Sterling confronted him and said, you've got to take ownership. You got to take ownership. If you want a relationship, you're going to have to own your stuff. And, you know, we were told about their heated discussion, and Mark did take ownership, and he and Sterling had really become close. And so when Sterling passed, Mark's regret was, I wasted all those years. I wasted all those years, Mom. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, honey. We don't look at them as wasted. You were hurting. You and Sterling were stored. So let's— you, you know, at this point you don't look back and go, they were wasted. Redemption happens. Redemption had happened, had it not? And he said, yes, Mom, it did. I said, so receive the redemption and the restoration that you and Sterling had. He died when you were in a great place. Not in the other place, which I could see where that would have really been an ongoing nightmare for him. So again, it's going from taking that perspective and looking at it from the lens of where we are, not where we used to be. Because where Mark was at 20, 21, 22, and through 27, that's not who he Was at six, seven, eight, nine, ten, twelve, fifteen, eighteen. So you know, putting it all in perspective, and that's what we tried to help him do.

I'm getting the feeling that he didn't, that Mark didn't lament Sterling.

He didn't what?

Oh, he didn't lament.

He did. He did. He did. He did. Actually, Sterling's passing. Was a catalyst for great change for Mark's life, a major catalyst for Mark's life. Mark was a very smart young man, but like I said, he had made some very poor choices. And one of those poor choices is Mark started being— was a drug dealer. So Sterling had said, man, you're smart. You're wasting your talents and your gifts. You're doing something stupid. You're, you know, going to get caught. You need to stop. And after Sterling passed, Mark said, Mom, you know, why would God take Sterling and not me? And I said, well, first of all, let's rephrase that. Um, God didn't take— um, he did receive Sterling unto himself, but this wasn't— you know, God did not, you know, cause that. That was allowed. And I said, and sweetie, you have— God doesn't look at his children and go, one has more value than the other. You're as valuable as sterling, honey. So you have value. He goes, but I'm dealing drugs, I'm doing this. Why would, you know, God allow for me? And I said, but Mark, if you died, where would you be right now? And he said, I'd be in hell based on my choices, based on how I've lived. And I said, well, what if this is the catalyst for change for your life and you come to know the Lord? And you have a personal relationship. Well, Simon, that's exactly what happened 2 years— within 2 years down the road. He really did transform into a relationship, but he was angry with God. He was angry and he had to work through it. And he would say, I'm working through this anger with God. And I said, and good, because he can handle it. He's big enough and powerful enough. Like, let him have it. It's all good. Let him have it. And he said, I am, Mom. I am. I said, good. Keep on doing that, honey. Because he's hearing you. He's with you. He's fighting for you and over you. Just know that. So we had these very real conversations that I think a lot of families would shy away from, to be honest with you, Simon. We don't. We're not— we're not shiers. We don't— we don't shy away. We really enter the deep, the hard places.

So did your, did your early training make you the perfect mum for Mark then?

Oh, I don't think anybody's perfect for anybody.

Perfect mum for—

I, I, I think God did equip me to be the mum Mark needed. Yes, and but even greater, Mark was the son that I needed to break me open from a spirit of controlling spirit and thinking that because we do A B C D, we get E F G. H. And really put me on my knees before the Lord in great humility to seek my Lord and to seek him to know how to love and parent Mark in those broken open places where the wounds were festering and the poison was so heavy. And I'll be very honest, I had a conversation with the Lord. There was a period that I just did not like Mark because he was making life very painful for my other children, very painful for the whole household. And he was just— he was mean. He was doing everything to destroy their property. Our children, each of our children, if they had stuff, he would do things that were He lied. He would steal. It was just— he would do these things and then he would deny it. And so I just went before the Lord and said, Lord, I have never felt this way about a person. And I just— oh, I felt so wretched and, um, just was crying and said, I don't like him. And the Lord said, I never asked you to like anybody. I called you to love them. And I mean, I was flat on my face at the time. I'm like— Well, could you give me one thing to like about him? Because right now he's not likable. And the Lord said, you know what, sometimes that's how you are to me. So it just— it's putting it right there. I'm like, Lord, thank you for, for showing me my own depth of where I fall short, and that it's only through you that I don't. And it was a game changer for me in that moment. And, and I would tell Mark, I praise the Lord that he blessed me for you to be my son, because you have raised me into a place with the relationship with the Lord I don't think I would have ever had. And I love you for that, and I love you for allowing me to speak into these places that are so deeply wounded in your life. So yeah, I mean, that's just keeping it real. That's the reality. Everything's not this beautiful— it's— there's real life going on. in, in behind the scenes of trauma. And, uh, you know, Mark ended up, you know, really being a very supportive person to adopting, really saw the great sense of value in adopting, um, and just really shared some things that were so precious, uh, about his own perspective and how He really saw that God had provided our family as his family, and he was grieved that he had not accepted it sooner. But again, we came back. But you've accepted it now, and even though you didn't accept it, honey, you were accepted. See, I think there's a difference. Even though we don't accept things sometimes, and people have the ability to. reject us. But Mark was never rejected by us. He was loved.

So you— but you both learned, to put it in very simple language, you both learned from one another.

We did. We did. And I, I mean, I believe to this day, I still, even though You know, he's not with me. I still learn things because, uh, from him, uh, because, you know, if there's a deposit that he's made within my life, I can think through the lens of Mark, which is really cool. You know, I think we can, you know, when we get to have that kind of intimacy with someone, we kind of can think through their lens. And I love that. Um, I treasure it deeply. I do. How?

What, what do you mean?

That, that kind of impact that, you know, when someone passes, that doesn't mean the— what has impacted our lives passes. That still stays with us, Simon. And so there's situations, you know, people and, uh, That I'll be around and there are certain things that conversations will happen and I'll think of Mark. I'll think contextually of, of certain conversations, certain things. And it kind of, I think from that lens, if that makes sense. I'll think from that lens because it's just what has been deposited in me. It's part of who I am now.

His perspective, you can take, you can take his perspective.

Yes, absolutely. Yes.

So you've got more flexibility?

Absolutely. Yes. Well, I had to become more flexible, or I probably— and I'm not saying this, uh, flippantly, uh, you know, when the Lord spoke over me, there was necessary change that needed to happen with me, or I may have had to be medicated. And maybe, you know, because It wasn't working that way. So I needed to be realistic with who I was, how I was, because it was a lot of stress that they brought in. And, you know, if you've— you know, not all adoptions are the same, but there are some aspects. And the aspect of rejection and abandonment is a very real component of many who are adopted. And it can bleed out into the family. It bleeds in them, but it also bleeds in and around the others within the family. And so it was, you know, 5 children, you know, varying aspects of life, different personalities. Managing all that. But Mark and John really were full-time, needing hands-on emotions involved, uh, because living in our house was like living in a therapeutic center. I was trained. I mean, I had to learn more things because they were abused. They were sexually abused. There were all sorts of things that came with that. So I had to learn other aspects. I had to learn how to you know, um, equip them with tools while still being their mother. So, you know, there were a lot of hats. And I, I actually went in the Lord's presence, said, Lord, this is a lot of hats. I just want to be his mom. I just want to be his mom. Because there was a point in time where I felt like I was all this other and really wasn't able just to be his mom. I know that may sound odd, but I mean, it was a full-time job really being a counselor, therapist, uh, coach to him and to John to help them manage life because they really could not manage life. They were so traumatized and, and had so much grief.

Yeah. I've been telling a few people recently that— I've been telling a few adopted mums recently, right, this is about you, right? So you don't need to go into your son's stuff or your daughter's stuff. It's their story, etc., etc. Um, so it's really interesting that after saying that for a couple— the last couple of conversations I've had with adopted mums, we're going right in, right?

But, um, Well, I think it's not—

Mark's not here to, to, to—

No. And I think it's important for people to understand trauma. I think it's important for them to understand that it can be years if— because for a child, and I want to make this clear because of what I do professionally, for a child who has been traumatized contextually, they don't have context. To be able to work through a lot of that until they get to a point where they have definition, other experiences where they can actually unpack those things. And it could be 2 decades, it can be 3 decades, Simon, it can be 4. It may never be, because one has to choose to walk through that journey. And in order to have healing, if I want healing, I have to make the decision I want to heal, be healed. And then I have to do the things that bring healing.

Yeah.

And that's what I do. I bring healing. I help people breathe again, move again, live again in their created design. That's what my job entails.

To have a choice though, they have to see a different option.

Yep.

Yeah, this, this landed for me, um, on a— I was in Florida at an adoption conference and I was chatting to an adoptive dad there that Works, runs, uh, runs a membership organization, um, for foster and adoptive parents. And we were talking about healing, uh, and I was saying, you know, people say that time is the greatest healer. And, and I think, well, no, it's not the time.

Mm-hmm.

It's not the time. If there's no change, there's no healing.

That's right.

Uh, and so for me, it, it would be time isn't the greatest healer. When I've thought about this deeply, I've— I, I would say that insights are the greatest healer, and a more prof— and a more profound insight. So using a religious word, an epiphany, you know, an epiphany is far deeper for me than an insight is. So, and, and I said to the guy, Arnie, I said, did I tell him what I thought? I don't think I did. I think I asked him what he thought first. He said, I think it's, um, I think it's a decision, Simon. I think it's a decision. And so I thought about that, and then when I saw him the following day, I thought, yeah, you know, I think you're right, Arnie. It's another way of looking at it. Healing is a decision. And for, for there to be a decision, you need a choice. And, and most of— well, not most— it takes a while for us to have that choice. The choice— if there is— if there's no choice, if we can't— if, if we're not at a junction Then we just— if we don't see a junction, we're just going to keep going down the road that we've been going down, and until we're faced with a junction and we can have a left, we can go left or right. And that's— So this is kind of fresh for me, and The big one was that Arnie said it was a decision, and before the decision, there's got to be a choice. And most of the time, we can't see the choice. The child can't see the choice, and many adults too can't see it.

Right. And you can't make that happen either. You can't create that for someone. It's their journey. And it, it has to be in their timing. I mean, so, you know, the desire, and again, is for healing, to walk in the healing. And interesting enough, just to kind of give you some context, when our first son passed, Mark wanted me to actually counsel and coach him. Through his grieving. And I said, no. I said, you need to go to someone else. And he said, but Mom, I like how you do things. And I said, honey, I'm grieving too. And here's the reality. I don't want to miss things. I don't want to overlook things because of the familiarity of our relationship. There are things I can speak into. I will be glad to do that, but you need to see someone else. And I think that, you know, it's important for each of us on our journey to realize that we do have to choose and we have to do the work. And again, we go back kind of to the beginning of the conversation. I don't think most people want to do the work to live in thriving. Because it's kind of like the old pair of jeans, Simon, that feel really good. They're worn. You've had them. They may have a few holes here and there. They're comfortable. You love them. You don't want to give them up for a new pair that may be, you know, more rigid. You gotta, you know, break them in. You've gotta, you know, and, and they can become just as comfortable. But you gotta give it some time. And I just, as in the society we're in, everybody's used to instant. They want it quick. They want it easy. They don't want it with any pain. And the reality is, in order for us to be healed, we have to acknowledge the pain that's going on in our head and our heart. And we need to give it a voice and we need to release it. And we need to embrace and receive the new.

That all sounds beautiful. And it sounds eminently logical. And to me, there is a slight mismatch. So hopefully, if I come— if I get around to asking the question, you can help me see what the mismatch was, right? When, when you were, you know, on your knees, I think is the word that you used, right?

You—

that, that wasn't— that, that was a— there was no choice. You had no, you had no choice in that moment.

Well, in my opinion, the choice would have been to be a freak of a mom that is like a— I mean, literally a control freak going, I mean, rampantly crazy because I'm you know, going out of control, or to humble myself and get before the Lord and let the Lord do what needed to be done and speak to me. And honestly, it goes— I want to be the best I can be, Simon, and I realize it's going to take work, but I'm willing to do the work. And I just, you know, the Father was so gracious to point out to me my error, and I had to deal with me first. I, I mean, I feel we all have to deal with ourselves first. You know, I can't come to you and have you start doing something if I'm not willing to take on my stuff. So my only choice was to humble myself and to cry out to the Lord and to let him speak to me. And I praise God for that moment because it was a game changer, because he loves my children so much more than me. I mean, they were gifts from him to me. And I wanted to be a really good steward of these precious gifts that he gave me.

So can I take another go at that?

Take another go.

So I think That, that was a game changer. I, I don't think you changed the game.

No, I think the Lord changed the game because—

yeah, okay, all right, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, not me. No, no, yeah, the Lord changed the game, and so many of us are trying to white-knuckle change Yes. We're trying to make change happen.

Yes.

And, and we've got this big separate self, ego, pride, whatever. We, we think that, that, that can change, that can change the game, but it, it, it does and, and it doesn't.

No.

And it doesn't.

That's why, no. And that's why I said, I mean, I, I had to humble myself and, and honestly, I knew, I mean, if we're real, like I was very honest with myself. I didn't like who I was. That's, I, I knew that wasn't the way it needed to be.

Okay.

But I really did not realize the aspect of control that had such a hold on me. But I was willing to let it go. I wanted— I, and I did, I let it go. And I, I just never ever after that had a desire to control because I wanted to be the mom that God called me to be and the daughter that he called me to be, the wife he called. I wanted to be that version. And not fight for my own version of what I thought I needed to be.

Yes.

So he, he changed the game, not me. But I, I did— I, I had a choice of whether I responded in obedience or disobedience, and I responded in obedience. And so it required something of me, Simon. And that I chose to do.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, it did require some— Thank you.

Thank you. I was going all or nothing, um, and you've helped me see that broader. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, we sometimes talk on the podcast about, um, hanging out at the bus stop for insights, right? So we, we choose where we hang out. But we don't— we can't decide the timetable of the bus. We can't make the bus come around the corner. And in this instance, there is no timetable. And what you're saying, there's also the choice of whether we get on the bus or not.

Absolutely. Every day. Every day there's a bus and we get to choose. And, you know, in my book I actually have, you know, you choose the Tree of Life or the Tree of Death every day. You're choosing it all day long. I want to choose the Tree of Life. That's my bus I want to be on every day, all day. I do not want to choose the Tree of Death. Death produces death. Life produces life. So what's a negative thought? Death. I don't want to have a conversation with negativity because it produces death. I want to have a conversation that produces life. That doesn't mean we can't talk realistically about situations and issues, but we need to have the resolution to that, not just sitting and talking about it.

Yeah. Would you like to choose the name of this episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast?

I would not even know where. Let's see. Oh, thriving with joy instead of striving. And not bad.

Okay, thriving with joy it is. Thanks, Marcia.

Yes, thank you. Appreciate it.

Lots of love, listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care.

Okay. God bless you, Simon.