Trauma Informed, Hope Obsessed With Marcy Bursac

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. So today I'm delighted to be joined by a human dynamo, a ball of energy, uh, and an all-around lovely person, Mary Burczak. Welcome to the show.

Thank you, I'm so glad to be here. Actually, it's Marcy. My mom's name is Mary and we used to get mail interchangeably because our names are one letter different, so it's like this funny anomaly.

Yeah. Now I'm embarrassed.

Don't be embarrassed, it happens all the time.

Somewhere between the two, because we've already spoken once, it's like double embarrassing. So anyway, um, so Marci is, uh, like me, she's a, um, a podcast host, and you're an author. I'm not an author yet, but, uh, totally unlike me, you're an adoptive mum. So, um, I am— last time we spoke, you had so much The level of enthusiasm was huge. Just on the enthusiasm point, do you know where that comes from, that word?

I don't know where the root of enthusiasm— what's the history of it?

So it's Greek, and the— it's theos. Entheos, right? Theos, like theology, study of God. Theos, God. So enthusiasm is something like the God within.

I did not know that. That's powerful.

So that's why enthusiastic people are powerful, right? Because it's, uh, it's some— it's God, or it's nature, or it's spirit, or it's chi. You know, different people call it different things. Um, I, I'm into all those different things, particularly a religious guy. But yeah, that's— so that's where it's come from. That's why it's powerful, right? That's why it's powerful, because it's, it's not about, um— it's about our heart, I guess, rather than our head. And, and, you know, and today's world is all about strategy and thinking and head stuff and mindset, but the power is in our hearts, right? And that's really important.

I'm so encouraged to know that. Thank you for sharing that.

Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. So enthusiastic, thriving adoptees. What comes to your mind when you hear this phrase, thriving adoptees?

I get excited. I think that, you know, to me, you had just said like, well, Marci, your enthusiasm kind of stuck out. And I'm like, well, to me, there's so much positive not just energy, but stories. Like, there's such a hope in the adoption space. And I was thinking this morning, in my family, we have a saying that we don't keep secrets, we keep surprises. So an example of that, right? Someone's birthday's coming up and you don't want to tell them what you're giving them, right? Because it's a surprise. And really early with my 2 children who were adopted, their biological siblings, we were clear about that. Like, we don't keep secrets, right? And there's certain things like within a family, like maybe the family knows, but everyone else doesn't, because it's not always for everyone to know. But I think when we can get to that sweet spot with our own adoption stories, that this, this isn't really a secret. I don't have to just feel some of those negative things that we feel weighted down by. I was just reading a study this morning. You may have seen it, Simon. The Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption hired the Harris Poll to do a research study on them. And I know this isn't specific to the UK, but in the US, 1 in 10, so 10% of adults have been adopted. And that blew my mind because I thought, if I'm in a room with 30 adults, that's like 3 people in the room were adopted, but I have no idea because sometimes we don't feel like we can just talk about that, right? And we should, we should feel just like any other diversity category. We should feel at the table. We should feel like those stories are important because they are.

Yeah. That's— that number's huge. Um, I, I've— uh, we, we met through that Dave Thomas, um, uh, organization, and I have seen some of their, some of their recent stuff, but that hadn't jumped out at me, the fact that 1 in 10 has been adopted. It's huge.

It's huge.

Um, you used my favorite word, hope, right?

Yeah.

So, and this phrase that has come up for me, this little tagline, I guess, and I haven't put it on my website yet, I don't think. That's a thing to do. Trauma-informed, hope-obsessed. Trauma-informed, hope-obsessed. There is so much, there is so much trauma obsession in this world of adoption. And people say, well, Simon, you're really, you, you're really positive. I said, well, I'm not playing at it. I'm, I'm not faking it till I make it. I, I'm— I am genuinely positive on the basis that I know that none of us are our trauma, right? We are not our trauma. So that's why I'm hopeful, um, because I've been down a trauma rabbit hole and then seen the trauma isn't me. Yeah, it's, it's something I have, I have felt it. I have, I have, I've thought it, I have felt it, but I thought I was it, and then I realized I wasn't. So I'm not just— but not just as a kind of a nice thing to say, like a tagline, right? But like deep in, in, in my heart, that's why I am why I am. However, the world seems to be obsessed with trauma. So where do you see the hope? How come you're so positive?

Yeah, and I think so much that— excuse me— as you pointed out too, that there's trauma-informed and being hope-filled. They almost feel like, are you serious, right? But I think about, to put it a different way too, I think about how beautiful it is to live in the raw and the real, right? And raw and real doesn't always sound Pollyanna and happy and everything's perfect. Because I think there's a difference between kind of choosing to look at something with the glass half full than looking at it as, like you said, like, this is me. And it's like we've all— and I'm not going to say that in any way do I understand my children's trauma. Have I been through my own traumas? Yes. Can I relate on that level? Yes. Are they the same? No. My 2 kids, they're currently ages 10 and 12. Actually, my daughters had a birthday, sorry, 11 and 12. And they were adopted at a very young age. I met my daughter when she was a week from being 3. My son was 4. And it's, it's to me eye-opening as they've aged to see how the trauma of going through the foster care system back and forth— we're their 7th home to live in. has affected both of them so differently. And you could say, well, Marcy, it's their age. It kind of is, but it's also just who they are, right? Like, we all, we all go through life differently. You and I could go to the same theme park, you can go to the same library or coffee shop, and we're not going to take away the exact same experience, even if we went together, right, and sat at the same table. Like, we might take away very different parts of what we were exposed to. And I think what's important in this space is I do believe there's great empathy To be gained from being trauma-informed in the States. It's really wonderful in the schools to help educators and those working in the schools to help be empathetic and adaptive to children. I think that's very positive. But at the same time, I believe that having a growth mindset and saying, okay, while I know that might be why, that only answers one question, right? Why am I that way? Why is this hard? Why? Is this this, or why do I think this way, right? Like, okay, now that we've established what caused it, we have a whole lifetime to decide what we're going to do about that, right? We have a whole lifetime to decide, I've been through this trauma, or I went through this experience. Am I going to share it with anyone? Am I going to talk to a therapist? Am I going to talk to my significant other? Like, there's such opportunity of like, okay, this might feel hard. And it might feel vulnerable or it might feel uncomfortable, but now that I know why, where can I take that why and unpack it? And I think that's where the beauty of being trauma-informed can really have potential is, you know, as my kids and I unpack their adoption story, I imagine we're not having the same conversations they might talk to friends or teachers about, but they know it's safe in their home environment to unpack, unpack the trauma, right? And that helps them thrive in a way that We're informed about it, but we're not stopping at the why. We're really trying to help. Okay, well, how do we want to navigate now that we know that?

Yeah, so there's huge amounts there. Um, I want to take you back to the raw and real bit, and I'm just, just flashing back to a previous, uh, podcast that I had, uh, interview I had with a late— a fellow adoptee called Rebecca Orton-Sanson. She's doing some great work. She's created a film She's a filmmaker by trade, and she's created a film with Nancy Verrier, the author of The Primal Wound. And I interviewed her and I said, you know, what's thriving mean to you? And she said, well, I'm not sure whether I'm thriving or not. Now, she seemed to me to be a very positive person, and she's going out there and making a change in the world, right? She would be a poster girl for thriving for me.

However, She—

her view of thriving was, I guess from what she said, was never being down, right? So the Pollyanna, picking up on your point about Pollyanna, we used to have an English sheepdog called Pollyanna, funnily enough, Mum and Dad. And I'm not— I'm positive, but I'm not a Pollyanna, right? Right? I know that sometimes I'm down.

Which is healthy, right? Like, we all have that.

Yeah. And like, this is, this is, this is a, like, it can seem absolutely nuts, but it's totally true. If we're okay with not feeling okay, right? If we're okay with not feeling okay, we're always okay.

Right?

If we're not okay with not feeling okay, we're always okay. And we're living in this world where we're told that we have to be positive all the time. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. You know, this kind of like fear is— what do they call it? False expectations appearing real. You know, what people have— emotions. I saw some I saw some great stuff on this, a psychologist saying you don't have mental health issues, you have feelings. You know, it's— there's a difference, there's a difference too here. You don't have mental— so anything that's feeling bad is suddenly a mental health issue, and, and we're kind of diminishing the trickier stuff because everybody's got mental health issues. Well, they're not having mental health issues, they're having normal Feelings.

And I have a hard time with that one. Like, there's such a—

go for it. Go for it.

I'm saying, because to me, and I, and I've worked in social— I've worked in my family, like, there's— this is everywhere. And to me, is it normal for, like— so for instance, it's common in the States around middle school for there to be like a suicide prevention program. Okay, they go into schools, they educate students, and they ask them, has anyone ever felt this? And I think it's a little questionnaire they fill out. Well, kids that say yes, like, yes, I thought about committing suicide, they're flagged and they kind of get talked to a little bit more. Okay, Simon, if we're really real, if we're really real, I've thought that, and I'm sure you've thought that at some point in time, right? Like, that's a normal— like, not that it's healthy per se, but it's okay to say that you've been that sad and that down that you didn't want to be here anymore. And I think to me, going back to what you're saying about they're just feelings, I'm like, okay, there's things that maybe a typical human experience goes through, right? the ups and downs and so forth. But I think there's also a whole different space. Like, why do we have this guide that our psychiatry folks use to diagnose and treat? Like, sometimes they're severe and things that are chemically imbalanced that need a different type of approach than just talking about it. Like, it doesn't— so I guess I'm having a hard time hearing that as like a one-size-fits-all. Because I'm like, sure, you can talk about those feelings, but you also might need some additional help. And that doesn't make it bad or wrong. It's just what your body needs.

Yeah, okay. So, um, I wasn't very clear. For me, this is a spectrum. Mental health is a spectrum. Mental health is a spectrum. But what I see is, um, and, and funny you mentioned, mentioned this DSM manual, right? So as I understand it, we're on DSM-5 now, I think, and it has got how many more problems, diagnoses, than the first one had. So they keep on discovering new things. Now, I, I've seen— I saw a documentary on this, and, and apparently the drug companies, uh, paid the universities and the colleges in the States to, to, uh, to, to identify new things. And then, and then, um, and then the drug companies have got something to solve. So there's some challenges around that, that stuff right here, but I'm saying that it's a spectrum.

Sure.

But what I feel is happening in the UK, and I don't know whether this is the same in the US, is that the stuff, everything is, even, even, uh, slightly iffy feelings on the low end of the spectrum are getting made up and, and getting, um, uh, exaggerated and seen as more of a problem. So it's, you know, feeling usual, standard feelings, regular run-of-the-mill feelings are being seen as, as mental health issues.

That's kind of what I get as a, as a Overall, so I can see what you're saying in some instances, because I think maybe, maybe it depends on the flavor of, is it a safe place and normal to talk about it? Like, I remember, because I spent a good chunk of my career in the social service realm, where we openly were able to share, today's gonna be a hard day for me, you know, I just lost someone or my dog or whatever the story. And you would know that about your coworkers and about your clients like that. That was just normal. And I've pivoted into the corporate world. We're like, that's like the thing you don't speak of. You know what I mean? Like, you don't ever— and it's— but it's like, but we still have these things that are part of our lives regardless if we talk about them. And it goes back to what we were saying even earlier about our own adoption stories. Like, just because we don't talk about it doesn't mean it's not real. We just didn't talk about it in that environment, right? And I think that there's some beautiful— back to what you earlier said too, like, there's so much hope in being able to unpack that in a safe safe way. And there are those ways to create that as more of a normal experience across the world, that we should be able to talk about adoption, and we should be able to talk about trauma, and we should be able to talk about mental health, and people should be aware of it. I had a talk recently with a large university that's online. So it's a huge kind of online campus. And I talked with their staff, and I set the stage that, you know, they were welcome to ask anything. All I would not share is why my kids were in care. And I would not say anything negative about their bio family. Those are my 2 ground rules. And so I welcomed, like, you can ask anything. And what I loved is one of the very first questions was, Marcy, how do I know if I have my own mental health issues that I can parent a child that will have mental health issues? Like, Simon, to me, like, the fact that someone felt comfortable enough asking that, was aware of themselves to feel concerned, and had kind of known enough about the adoption space to know that's what I'm signing up for. It allowed everyone in the room to benefit.

Yeah.

Because we were able to talk about, like, because we go through our own mental health journeys, we are actually better at parenting. Because I did that myself. Like, I went and got counseling at the beginning of living with my children because I was like, I have stuff I need to unpack. And man, if I'm going to ask them to go to play therapy, I can talk about my therapist just like we can talk about theirs. And it becomes normal and not weird or something's wrong. It's just like, this is a healthy way to engage with life.

Yeah, there's no denial, right? So you're talking about a couple of different things there. If I'm looking down on it, you talk at one point, you're saying there is denial in the corporate sector compared to the social services sector, and you're saying there's no denial in this, uh, there's no denial. There's no denial in your household, and there's no denial in, uh, in this forum that you were talking in. And we're not brushing anything under the carpet. We're bringing it out into the open. Um, and it goes back to what you were saying about, uh, you know, no, no secrets. It's the, it's the end of secrets. It's the end of secrets. It's the— and it's the— yeah, it's the end of stigma, isn't it?

Yes, we need— yes, we need to end the stigma. We need to, and we are, right? Like what you're doing right now by providing this conversation, like it tells people it's okay. And in fact, please talk about it too, you know? Yeah, it's really that simple. Like if we talk about it, And help people feel like, oh, I've been feeling that way, or, oh, I've wondered that, or, oh, me too.

Yeah. You used a great word as well. You said unpacking, and that's— somebody asked me yesterday what my favorite episode was of the podcast so far, and I said it was the one from a lady called Holly Ann Petrie, um, an adoptive mum, um, and runs— she's the executive director of an agency as well. And she came up with the title of Unpacking Our Own Baggage as Adoptive Parents. And that one was my favourite for the kind of self-awareness reasons that you're talking about too.

Absolutely.

So I, I would, um, I'm going to put a link into the, uh, to the show notes on that, because with whatever— there's 160 episodes so far, um, uh, in the podcast— it's sometimes hard to, to find them. So I'll put a link into that. So, um, what— let's, let's zero in. We've been quite big. Let's zero in. And you've talked about that— you're alluding to the environment in which you're raising your kids. So Can you share more of what you've learned about creating that appropriate environment in, I guess, 8 years? If you first met your son and he's 4 and he's now 12, you've been at this 8 years, right?

Thanks for doing the math for me. Usually people say, well, how long? And I'm like, hold on, I don't know, because it's like, you don't— like, they didn't get adopted at day 1, so it's, you know, Yeah, thank you. Yes, you're right. But I think a lot of what informs the way that my husband and I parent— my husband's an educator, so that like skews things too. And we were, we were one of 10 families that applied to adopt our kids. And my understanding was him being a teacher was a big draw for the group that was choosing. And then my husband's grandfather, so back in like 1920, Sam was about 7 years old. Sam lost his mom and dad due to illness. And Sam had an older brother and sister who were older and could help on a farm. And Sam was 7 and a boy and defiant. And so Sam was on the streets while his siblings got adopted. So we had this whole other draw when we were even dating that I was like, I actually don't feel like I want to have biological children. So kind of that as a backdrop, because I do— part of my work in the author space is I do help people understand how to navigate the foster care adoption process. And a common story is couples who may, or individuals who may have a story of infertility. And I know that that in and of itself comes with a whole mindset where you have to— and we talk through this a lot as I coach families— you really have to think about doing it for this child and it's not replacing something. So my story is not of one of infertility, mine is one of choice. So with that kind of as a backdrop and a teacher husband, Um, we made a commitment to our kids really early in, I think kind of nonverbally, that we really wanted them to feel like they could always ask anything. And sometimes ask anything for us means not just adoption story, but this is like body parts, you know, life, all that stuff. We were like, we just want to be comfortable and our kids to like feel like they can literally ask anything. But we also have as parents, as over time, sometimes we'll say we know the answer to that. But we're choosing to not tell you. So for instance, a common question over the past couple years is, I don't remember my bio mom or bio dad's name. And they'll pause. And they'll look at me and I'll say, I know, but I am choosing as your parent to not share that right now because I want you to be able to focus on you and this. And you're welcome to disagree. Like, we're at that stage now. You can disagree. If you'd like to have something I'm not giving you, just tell me and we can have a conversation, right? Like, I'm not a perfect parent by any means. But I am trying to co-parent with my husband, and I am trying to help my kids be part of that. So something that we did— so in the US and in the state that I'm in, in Missouri, you can— it's a closed adoption state. So we actually chose, because of instability, the bio parents were not married, they were very young. We chose to have a closed adoption, so we don't maintain contact. And I know people have very strong opinions one way or another. We wrestled with it a lot. And for our scenario, it just felt like the right thing to do to help our kids feel less drama in their lives. And we, with the intention of when you're, you know, high school age, we'd love to help you reconnect. But for right now, we want you to have stability. So that's kind of where we've angled things. But things that we've done, my kids can ask anything about anything. So if memories come up, they can talk about their memory. And I know some people are like, oh my gosh. That makes me feel like there's like another parent. There is, right? But when we realize that these are people, and while there might be a story there that we dislike certain elements of it, I think it's important for my kids to know that I support them. And that while we might be disappointed in people's decisions and choices, just like we are in ourselves sometimes, right? We all make decisions and choices that aren't the best at all times. And so we get to do those conversations together. You know, I feel this about That, you know, my bio mom, or I feel, how come this happened? Can you tell me this detail? So we fill in gaps. And probably in the middle of the pandemic, there was a question, because some things that come up, Simon, and many of your listeners who are adoptees might recall some of these moments. I remember in like kindergarten or first grade. So my kids, we met right on the brink of preschool. So kindergarten, first grade, the teachers say, okay, bring in a baby picture. So they come home. Thanks a lot. Right? And I remember talking to my husband because I was like, I'm in fumes. Like, I am so mad that this is a thing and like my kid's left out. And my husband just tried to be like, Marcy, just try to understand where the teacher's coming from and like, can you just try to find a way to make this work? And I recently saw this really funny post on social media about this topic that this young man said had the same assignment and his, his adoptive mom said, okay, we can Google and find a kid that looks like you at a younger age, or you can just bring in an older kid photo. And, and this gentleman was like, I'm bringing in myself. Like, I don't want to pretend, you know, but it's just these interesting choices that I don't think people think when they assign these topics to our kids, that they don't think you wouldn't have that, right? So we ended up, we had access to some earlier in life, but not baby photos, and we sent them in. So we actually, my kids' bio parents have individually given us sort of like a note and then some photos for our kids. And they were given to us at the goodbye visit. My kids were so little. They were 4 and 5 at that point. And we never gave it to them. We just held on to it. And we felt like when it was the right time, it would make 100% sense to unpack it together. But given the Band-Aid that just felt like it got ripped off, like this is not the right moment. And in the pandemic, that was an opportunity for us. We— there were a lot of questions that came up. The kids were doing something about why, you know, how come my fingers are this way or my toes or my hair? It was all those things about why do I look this way, right? And so we had this beautiful conversation and got both books out and went through all the photos and read the notes together. something they're allowed to like check out. We don't just leave it out, right? But had great conversation with tears, right? Like we had great conversation about, look, this is who you look like. And look, this is what this is. And questions, some of them were, what am I doing in this scene? And I'm like, I don't know. I wasn't there. But we can try to figure it out. But it's just an open dialogue, Simon. To us, it's just— to me, if I think about it, if it was me in my kids' shoes, and let's say something happened, right? Let's say that like my parents died. And as a kid, I went and lived with hopefully aunt and uncle or someone kind, right? I would hope that they would let me unpack my entire living existence up to that point anytime I needed to because they loved me and my family enough to help me process, right? And that's kind of the lens that I've taken as a parent is I don't really know the biological parents super well, but I can, I can tell myself that to give a gift to them and to my children and our children really, right, at least share them, that we can help them navigate that in a healthy way instead of making it a secret or a surprise. Right, that later can just cause so much turmoil and trauma to just kind of not never talk about it.

Yeah. So there's a few things that you said there, um, I— about, you know, uh, different people having disagreements about open/close, right? Um, these, these, uh, these little, um, well, these little— these incidents that are thrown at us like the, the baby picture stuff and, and figuring it out. What I see— I, I put a, uh, I put a, um, a question in a Facebook group that's where adoptive parents and adoptees hang out. I said, I'm doing this, I'm, I'm doing webinars, what should I do it on? And they all, they all wanted really practical things. And I was thinking about that. I was thinking, well, the trouble with practical stuff is that you get into the advice zone, right? And I'm not an adoptive parent, so how can I talk to that? Like, you know, you said you can talk about your trauma, you can talk about your kids' trauma. I, you know, I can't talk— I can talk about my experiences as an adoptee. I can't talk, you know, giving advice to adoptive parents. How happy do I feel doing that? Also, There's a million and one, there's a million and one practical challenges, things that come up. And if we're kind of— and we figure them out, right? But there seems to be this need, and because I see this in myself, right? Not to do with parenting because my wife and I don't have any kids. There seems to be a massive theorizing and predicting, trying to come up with all the solutions that we were going to face and think our way through how we're going to solve every event, every issue, every challenge. Or ask advice from everybody on how we're going to address issues that haven't yet risen yet. I mean, what, what's that all about? I mean, is, is this just me, or is that what you see, you know, when you're helping people navigate the process? Do they come up with 101 things that might happen and feel that they have to kind of have have the answer to them before they arise, or is it just me that sees this?

No, I think it's a mix. I mean, my husband and I, because you had mentioned earlier about unpacking, we had done some advanced training because we knew we wanted like non-infants, and because Grandpa Sam was 7 and we wanted older kids. And I remember we did this, it was called invisible suitcase training, and it was all about like how to be informed that the child or children will walk in with a whole backstory. And that, that was super helpful for us. Did we use everything from that class? Probably not. But I think what's interesting, to your point, I had someone recently who— adoptive mom, and the young daughter was like 6 or 7. Her birthday was coming up, and adoptive mom and I crossed paths, and she knew the kind of work I did and said, Marcy, I need help. My daughter doesn't actually know she's adopted. And you know me, we just talked about this, right? I don't like secrets. I don't. I had a sibling that really late in life, like high school, like late, late growing up years, it was disclosed to her that her biological dad was someone other than who she thought. So like it just, I saw the tailspin of that, right? And so I saw this incredible opportunity, like the vulnerability of Marcy, how do I do this? But the reaction she said was, what book do I read? And I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, hold on. And we're on a call just like you and I are on a Zoom call. And I said, I want to role play with you. I think there's such power in role play. And she said, I don't, you know, I don't know what to say. And so I was like, well, pretend I'm your daughter. Give it a try. So we did over video. She didn't like it. And I said, okay, I want to switch the tables. I want to be you and I want you to pretend you're the daughter. And I talked to her the same way that I talked to my kids, right? Like, how do you explain that kind of a story to a kid without making it sound like it was awful and it was bad and you were pulled— you know, you can go that way, right? But instead, what if it's— You choose the angle, right? You choose the angle. And I coached her through, you know, explain to her how special she is. And how it wasn't safe and how she needed somewhere to go and you were there and how you're so sorry. You know, this is, this is when you wanted to tell her you thought she was ready, but you want to make sure this isn't like a one-time discussion, that she feels like she can ask and she can talk and she can unpack it. And Simon, one thing I want to point out is one thing I'm so proud of my kids in is they— because of me being an author, I'm like, hey, do you want— is it okay for family photos on this? Because like when it is, like everyone's gonna know you were adopted. Like— Just, just so you know, because we, from a racial perspective, my kids are Hispanic. I'm very white. It's only in the summertime do you notice I don't tan. But for the most part, we kind of blend, right? Like, you don't really— you can't tell racially that they're adopted. And my son, during the pandemic, he in 5th grade, there was an assignment to write a paper about anything you wanted. And he said, I'm going to write about foster care adoption. Well, the hard part, Simon, is when you go to get research, you're getting all these like Children's Services website, all this stuff that's like garble, you know, garble, like it's all this like legal jargon. So my child's trying to write this paper and I'm trying to help him tease out, you know, the age-appropriate way to talk about things. But it was, it was a challenging essay to write. And his teacher said to him, she said, you know, how about you change topics? This seems really complex for you. And Simon, you know what he did? He said, it's really important to me that I tell my story. It's really important to me that the kids I go to school with are aware that there are kids just like me. So this might be hard, but I'm gonna do my project because it's important that at this age we talk about it, right?

Yeah, totally, totally. Figuring stuff out and role-playing and support and Having a trusted friend, how important is, is this? And, and to, you know, like you said that you gave that one example of, you know, the woman wanted to know what book, right, book you're gonna read, right?

Yeah, I think it's common, right? Well, because, you know, where do I go? How do I know where to go? And then, and personally, I have time carved out that, like, that's, that's my ministry on the side. Like, I love The one-on-one conversations, because people open up about what's like the fears that are really surrounding a lot of their parenting, right? Should I even do this? How do I navigate this? But I think in terms of how important is it to have kind of that circle or those people, I would say critical. I mean, I have 2 different adoptive moms that, as my husband and I were navigating this whole process, it's like our kids were living with us and weren't quite legally done, that kind of thing. I could text them any time of day, and I didn't expect them to respond at like 2 AM, right? But I could text them my raw and real feelings. I could call them in my, you know, disarray of, I don't know what to do. I'm feeling hopeless. I'm seeing regressed behaviors. I mean, to me, Simon, there's no book like that. Right? There's no online website. I mean, if you saw the things we talked about and the candor that we share of like, this is crazy, right? Or what do I do? Or I feel like a failure. This— I don't know where that is online. I don't know where that is in a book. I mean, it's real life. But that lived experience to me is the most critical piece of it, right? Like, how can we learn from each other as we go through this, either in parallel or because you've already gone down this road, your kids are older? Like, teach me, teach me what you've learned in the process. I think that's super critical.

So that's what this podcast is all about, teaching people— well, teaching people, sharing what they've learned in the process, I guess, rather than teaching. And, and, uh, when it's— how many, how many people that I have on this podcast haven't got lived experience? I think maybe one or two. It's pretty clear to me when I have the conversations, if I have conversations, pre-recording conversations, when people haven't got lived experience, because there isn't that depth. There isn't the depth there. It's theory. And as I remember this, I distinctly remember wasting 3 years in college learning about the theory of business, right?

Mm-hmm.

I mean, it was management sciences. It was all theory apart from one out of 18 modules. I loved that. The other 17, absolute— it just had no power, it had no resonance, it had no, it had no soul. It was like economic and social history. How's that gonna help me run a business, you know? So, um, I'm conscious of time. Um, what are the, what are the, the main things that you've learned and you continue to learn raising your kids?

That's a really good question. I think for one, the thing I have to keep learning over and over is to be aware that I might not know the whole story. And that's from like anything from having siblings, right? Like you don't even know why they're arguing because there's two sides. But I think from an adoptive parent standpoint, I don't always know what happened before us. I don't always know chemically what I have biologically. I don't know. I don't know what I have, right? So as my kids are aging and they're getting moles on their skin, and I have moles on my skin too, like I didn't know that. And I don't know, like I can't tell them what age they're going to have acne or how severe it's going to be, right? But I can, I can give them a little heads up on kind of, you know, this is puberty, you know, this is what to expect. But I think just being aware that I'm trying my best right now with what I know, and the cards change all the time where we learn something new or something flares up and then all of a sudden we're like, oh my goodness, I had no idea for the past this many years that you needed more help in this space. Like we didn't know in school that that was, you know, so I think that's been huge is just recognizing that I only know what I know today, today. And to forgive myself that, you know, I might not have done it right for years, but I tried. Like I was doing what I thought because no one gets a parenting manual. I think that's been really key. And I think the other piece that just leads into why I stepped into the author space is it's so important as adoptive families, so both the adoptee and the parents on whatever equation of that, I think it's so important tactfully to share our stories. And that's something as simple as, you know, a good friend or a colleague or whatever. I mean, you and I are more public about this, right? We have podcasts. I think it's so important to normalize In a tactful way, meaning, you know, maybe you're not divulging every possible detail about everything that happened to everyone, right? There's, there's some tact in that, but I think it's so important to make that conversation real. And it is real, right? Like, regardless if we talk about, as I said earlier, like, it's still there. And I think when we can be brave, and even if that's, hey, it's national— I don't know what's in the UK. We just came out of National Foster Care Month here in the US. We have a National Adoption Month. There's all these other ways to celebrate these kinds of things. And it's like even just asking specific group or an employer, whatever the thing is, like, hey, can I speak on this? Or hey, can I write a blog post on this? You know, can I just do something to share? And I think the final piece that kind of wraps all that together, Simon, one of the things that I find so intriguing in this space, and I think you may have a similar experience, is as a result of going public, right, to be an encouragement in the space, to help guide people in this space, I get, I get a lot of private messages. And to me, that's where so much of the fruit is because people feel I'm safe to tell you, right? And I can tell I can't even tell you the number of people, but the adults that were adopted that have reached out to me that no one, no one in their circles knows, right? Like I had a gentleman recently that said, my wife doesn't even know what I went through. I've never opened up to her. But I've seen the work that you're doing and I'm seeing how important it is to talk about it. And so they went ahead and had a, like, you know, he started unpacking that story with her, right? And it's just like, man, if we can feel safe. And know how beautiful it can be to bond with someone and share what that was with appropriate people. Like, there's such hope we can give the world to let people understand the things we've gone through.

Yeah. I want to take you back a couple of minutes to something that you said about, um, the same, the same learning over and over. And, and I think that's you know, the same level, the same learning over and over, and it's not a once and done. And I think that's sort of— that is the key to the start of the end of guilt, right? Because we believe that learning— because we start learning, you know, 2+ 2, whatever, you know, we believe that learning is a once and done thing. And it's not. It's an ongoing process. So if we make— like, sometimes we— well, I beat myself up about making the same mistakes, right? And there's something else on that that I had a breakthrough on a couple of weeks ago when I thought, you know, I was thinking about regret, okay? And I thought, well, if I'd known better, I would have done better. If I'd known differently, I would have done differently. And if I, if I had my time again, I would do differently. So I'm kind of— I'm off the hook for my past mistakes. And I'm wondering how significant that is with the adoptive parents that you speak to in terms of how much beating, beating ourselves up is there?

Yeah, I think it's prevalent in a healthy way, right? Like, I think what I like to look at the angle of is we all do it regardless if we're adoptive parents or just humans, right? We all apologize. I was on the phone with someone for work yesterday who had missed the training and needed help, and she was apologizing that, oh my gosh, I have to ask for help. And I was like, can you stop apologizing? Like, let me just help you. It's really okay. And I think For me, an approach that I try to take is instead of apologizing for the thing, you know, because I've even talked to my kids, I'm really sorry, I didn't know that. Like, I feel like a bad parent. And they'll even respond to that. And they'll be like, Mom, like, I'm not mad. Like, I don't know why you're feeling bad about it. And I'm like, I'm really glad I voiced that because I think it's just a lie in my head, right? But I think there's also something to say for changing our language, right? So instead of getting, you know, I can apologize to my kids, right? But I don't need to do it over and over and over. Instead, what I need to say is, thank you. Thank you that I get to try again, right? I mean, just as even, you know, younger kids, for them, like, they mess up. And then they correct the behavior and they try. They're not stuck in like, well, Mom, I hit my sister, you know, like they didn't get stuck back there. Like, why should I get stuck back there, right? But it's easier said than done. I mean, I constantly talk to my spouse and some couple— I have several friends in my life that are in the therapy counseling space. And even just to learn from them what their real lives are like and how to allow yourself to even like revisit things. And just like an approach I want to share as we wrap up is, you know, going back in your head mentally to what you did that you're regretful of and being able to in your head replay the scene but choose differently. And then allow yourself to have closure. Like, had I known what I know now, this is what I would do in that scenario. And I'm going to let myself let it go. Like that's what I hopefully will do next time. You know, that we don't have to keep going, oh, I made a mistake. It's like, well, we're human. Like if that doesn't happen every day to you, like maybe you're not being honest with Yeah.

Fantastic. So as always, listeners, um, check out the show notes. There'll be links to Marci's podcast and Marci's books, and you can connect, uh, and links to her socials as well. So you can connect with and find out what she's doing. And, um, thank you again for coming on the show. It's been an absolute delight.

This was wonderful and I feel so encouraged. So thanks for all that you do to create dialogue safely in a space that it's much needed.

Yeah, you're a star. Thanks a lot. Thank you very much, listeners, and we will speak to you very soon.

Bye-bye.