Unconditional Love With Jay Barbanel

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Jay, Jay Barbanel. Looking forward to our conversation, Jay. It's been a while, maybe like 3, 4 months, was it? Before Christmas?

Yeah, it was before Christmas that we first met and started planning this episode, so I'm happy to be here.

Yeah, cool. So, um, we are recording this in March, but it'll be released, listeners, in April, fingers crossed, because it's going to coincide with Jay's book, which is called Finding Tico. So we might get into a little bit of that later on. But the big question, Jay, is what does thriving mean to you?

I think thriving is There's a lot of different sectors of thriving. I think there's the internal thriving, which is something that I've been focusing on for so long. And I mean, really for the last 3 years. And then there's the outside thriving and then there's thriving with others.

Yeah.

So I think those are my 3. When I think of it, those are 3 things that first pop up in my mind. Yeah.

3 years is a— it's labor for us, right? We're doing the work.

Yes, it's labor. And it's, it's not easy, you know, it takes a lot of dedication. And I think that for me specifically was through therapy. And what I learned the most from it was that it's not the 50 minutes in the session that will do the work. I think it's the work that you do outside of those sessions with what you learned and how you apply it. And that's how you begin to really thrive.

Yeah. And just in case there's any adoptive parents listening out there, we're diving into Jay's insights as an adoptee here, but the one thing that I hear from adoptive parents in terms of what they need to do to help their kids thrive is for them to do their work too.

Mm-hmm.

we all benefit from unpacking our own emotional baggage, to quote an adoptive mum that I interviewed a few years ago. So yeah.

Um, so to that point though, Simon, I just want to jump in, you know, to that point. I think that it's important to also understand that the— you have to be ready to do that, to, to do the work, you know. Um, I was, I was presented to do the work when I was a kid And I was completely against it. And it wasn't until later on in life that I was ready to do it. And that's when it started to really work.

Yeah. So what, what changed then? Have you got, have you got an insight into what, what changed over the time? What was there anything particular that prompted you, your readiness? There was something that laid the ground rules— sorry, not the ground rules— laid the ground for For diving into the work?

There was. I mean, I think that something that I didn't know that I struggled with a lot in my life was relationships, and not in terms of relationships with others, but just intimate relationships with partners. And I was actually in— it was in through the process of getting a divorce that I, you know, I sat down and I kind of really asked myself, like, what is going on here? And why didn't I— why didn't it work? And that's when I really understood that I had to go back to understand why I wasn't able to really connect on those levels. And that's really what prompted me to go back into therapy and do the work to understand myself before I could kind of give myself to someone else.

Yeah, you touched on something just a couple of, couple of minutes back about not seeing it. Seeing something for the new time, seeing something for the first time. And one of the quotes that comes back to me time and time again is a, is a Jung quote, and it's something— it goes something like this: until we make the subconscious conscious, it will rule our life and we will call it fate.

Yes, 100%.

100%. Or, or in 2 simpler words, right? Our, uh, 3 words here: our blind spots.

Right, right.

Our blind spots, we, we can't see them. That's the—

Yeah, you know, it's so funny because I look back at myself, you know, 3 years ago, and it's like, it's almost like it's unrecognizable because I thought that where I was, it was just, I feel like I was so, it was so normal to be frozen, you know? And once I kind of snapped out of that, then that's when perspectives and really myself and my entire, everything changed so deeply for me because I didn't realize that I had compartmentalized so many things from the past to protect myself, you know? And once I understood that and really opened it up, Um, things changed dramatically, dramatically, and it changed very quickly too.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, there's so much there. Um, when you said, uh, it's normal to be frozen, what, what do you mean by that, Jay?

Um, I think the best way I can describe that is, um, I'll tell you a story, a quick story. So, you know, I was driving— We've got an hour here, mate, so just take your time.

Well, this one won't take an hour, but, um, so I was driving, I'm driving, I'm driving work.

And this is a couple years ago now. Excuse me. And, you know, I felt it was morning, you know, I was driving downtown LA. And it was just, I just felt light, really light. And I was really happy. And I kind of sat there and I asked myself, I was like, why? Why are you so happy right now? And I realized that there was— it was for no reason whatsoever. It was just like a really light feeling. And that's when I realized that was the first time really in my life that I felt truly, truly happy for no reason at all. And it made me realize that the past I hadn't been living with that. And when I say frozen, it was the lack of that just pure joy. And that was just normal to me. I didn't know that there was this other option of being completely, you know, satisfied with myself. Yeah.

And did this Did this moment of, of lightness, did, did that come to you whilst you were going through the therapy stuff, or before then? Or—

Yeah, it was, it was definitely, it was the day after like a really, really positive session that I had with my therapist. Um, you know, we had kind of gone through like a really good breakthrough where I started to understand things, and the next day I felt that lightness. And it's almost like, you know, because I was able to get that out It kind of carried over. Now, you know, that lightness can't— it can't be every day, and I understand that. But when I do feel that, I always take the second to acknowledge it.

Yeah.

And remember, you know.

I've got a question coming to my mind, Jay, and it sounds a little bit—

I don't know.

coachy or therapisty, and I'm not— I'm none of those things right now, but I felt that lightness. Uh, what if that's who we are?

I think that is. I think— I really think that is deep down who we truly are. And when that shines, I think that, um, it's like it, you know, it feels inside— it feels like the most beautiful thing.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's for no reason at all, which is like, you know, yeah. And you know, you compare that to the past and you realize that it's, it's just such polar opposites.

Yeah. So what veils it?

Um, I think that, um, for me what veiled it was basically just, uh I didn't allow myself to bring that out. You know, I was trying to protect myself, and I think that that feeling is so vulnerable and so empathetic.

Yeah.

And I didn't want to bring that out because of the things I had been through. You know, it was easier for me to kind of have that wall up and to be hard than to be light and empathetic. You know, because if you're light and empathetic, then I think that allows people to come in. And for my case, like, I was To allow someone to come in means I have to explain everything I had been through, and I couldn't do that.

Wow. Yeah. Phew. Um, yeah. Did, did you, or do you know the mode, modality, or the, the approach your therapist was, was taking?

Yeah. I mean, it's always been very, very conversational. Yeah. Um, and then I, I, the way, the thing that I really, the reason why it really clicked for me working with him was because it never felt preachy or never felt like lessons. It just felt like discovery.

Yeah.

Um, and through, it was just through common conversation that we began to dig deeper. And then I think he just guided me into going and keep on digging and digging and digging until I was like, okay, I can talk about this.

The reason behind my question about the modality is because you used the word protector. So the— what the protector parts are, are— it's a term used, I'm sure it's a term used in lots of different techniques or modalities, you know, like, um, approaches to, to therapy.

That's right.

But there's, there's one called There's one called Internal Family Systems, IFS, and by a guy called— the founder of it's a guy called Richard Schwartz. And he talks about protector parts. And the protector parts are our— well, that's what they do. That's why he calls them that. He's really To distill what he's talking about down, he he he talks about the uppercase S self, right? And what he means by that is is that light space that we are. That, that lightness. So if that lightness was a thing, yeah, right. Um, the uppercase S Self is the same thing.

Yeah, yes, yes.

2, 2 words, it's the synonyms, you get 2 words for the same thing, right? Um, so essentially he says that, um, that the, uh, the best metaphor I've got for this, it, uh, will only work if you, if you know what I'm talking about. Have you ever played Trivial Pursuit?

You know, it's been years since, years since I've played Trivial Pursuit. But yes, I have.

Okay. So, you know, you get a cheese holder, you get this round, you get the round disc. Yeah. You get the round disc with the spaces for the cheeses. Yeah. So the cheese holder is the uppercase S, the uppercase S. Self, and that's who we truly are, right?

Yes.

And the cheese holder is empty. The trauma is in the cheeses. The trauma is in the parts.

Yes, totally.

And one of the cheeses is the protector part.

Yes, I— yeah, I mean, that's a great way of putting it. Yeah. I think that for me personally, like, I didn't have that part for such a long time. I didn't have the holder for such a long time.

Yeah. You know, you talked about discovery and digging. What, what was that? It sounds like to me like the therapist, like he's prompting insights in you. Is that— you like, you saw new things, or what was it?

The thing is that, and I guess I have to explain a little bit further, like when I went to therapy, it wasn't about— it really wasn't about my adoption. Um, it was more about the separation with my brother and I, you know. Um, and that's something that I'd hid so so deep because it was so painful. And so what, what my therapist was able to do was just give me little perspectives of how to see the situation in itself that then opened up so many other things. For example, like, you know, when my brother left, I just hit it so, like I said, hit it so deep. And then he, the first thing that he kind of, the first perspective he gave me, he was like, look, what if we present this almost as a death, right? Hit the separation, presented almost as a death. And he said to me, like, he goes, what do you do after somebody that you love dies? You know, obviously there's a funeral, there's the mourning period, there's, you know, all of that that comes with it. And he said that, you know, Jay, you never did that, right? Because you just hid it away and said, I'm not going to ever deal with this again. And so the digging was, I think, starting to understand that. And then being able to grieve it. And you know that happened almost thirty years ago, and so to grieve something you know thirty years later is an experience that's very bizarre. But I think when I decided to open up and really accept and and surrender to that idea, that's when the digging kind of really got deeper and deeper, and that lightness started to appear. And once I saw that lightness, that's when I started almost chasing it. You know, because I loved that feeling.

Yeah.

Um, and I think it's like I love the feeling of finding myself through that.

Yeah. Well, that goes with the discovery. That's what you mean by the discovery. So you did the digging. You did the digging through the grief, which you hadn't dug through before.

Right.

And that, and that revealed this lightness for you.

Yes. And, and And the, um, the therapist has been there, right, helping you, helping you dig, right? And then things that, like, you know, through that, through the digging of that process, that kind of went full circle because that brought me to, um, being more curious about my adoption and my origin story. And then through starting to discover that, that's what ended up bringing me home back to my country and connecting with my sister, you know. And so it's just this cycle that all kind of happened in the weirdest way, but it was very organic. Um, and my therapist really like helped me guide through that. Yeah.

You talked about compartmentalizing before.

Yes.

What was— what were you compartmentalizing? Was it the grief you were compartmentalizing?

Or, I mean, it was definitely the, um, Yeah, there was. I think part of it was the grief, but I also just compartmentalized the entire experience, you know. And it wasn't one of the main things was even when I was you know this happened when I was seven years old, and I remember when my brother left, I talked to my parents. I said to them, you know, let's take all the pictures out of the house with my brother in them. You know, let's. never talk about this ever again.

Right?

Because my way of survival really was to just put that in a box and never open it again and basically convince myself that I was fine. Right? And I think that's, that's where the beginning of that frozen feeling really started. Because I think prior to that, I had so much empathy, empathy and so much love. But that part really hardened me, you know.

What do you mean by left? He left? Your brother left?

So we, um, we got adopted together.

Yeah.

And then when I was 7, he was 9, um, you know, some pretty traumatic things happened in the house which ended up sending him back to Costa Rica where we're from. And then I stayed with my family and he went back to our country.

Yeah. Wow. And is he still around, your brother?

Yeah, I mean, we, we ended up connecting, uh, in 2015, so it was almost 2 decades after we, we last saw each other. Um, but then about a year ago, I made the decision that it was the healthiest thing for me to do was to walk away, um, because it was a really toxic relationship. that I, um, kind of chased for a long time until I realized that it was never going to change. Um, so I kind of had to make the decision to, you know, uh, to walk away, which was not easy, but I understand that it was for my own well-being, um, and for my own, like, really for my own self-love, you know.

Yeah. So that, that happened, that was happening, that, that was happening whilst you were in the therapy then, if it was 2 years ago? Yeah. You've been in therapy for the last 3 years?

Yeah. Yeah. So we reconnected, like, you know, in 2015. And then we— I tried to— I almost convinced myself that the relationship was going to change. You know, I always wanted my brother to be something that he couldn't be. And I was always willing to try to get there.

Yeah.

But then, like, through the therapy, yeah, I realized that that was never going to happen. Because of some things that happened while I was kind of doing my search for my family. And, you know, obviously, I talked about all this in my book. But, you know, yeah, it was, it was, it was during that period. But I think that prior to therapy, I never would have had that strength or even the knowledge to know that I was doing this for myself rather than anybody else. You know, and this, I mean, separating myself from him.

Yeah, it would have been a blind spot. Right?

It would be a blind spot.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because, you know, I, he basically was, he really tormented me for most of my life. And because he was my brother and because I loved him, I always just said, oh, that's not too bad, you know? But then once I— once it clicked, I was like, that is actually really bad. That's why, you know, the therapy allowed me to understand all that.

My guessing is that he hasn't done the therapy.

No, no, he has not. You know, I hope one day he does, but I don't know if that's ever in his cards.

Yeah, yeah. So what's happening for you? What's happening for you now? What— where are you? You've clearly— you've written— you've written the book. Um, tell us about that process and, uh, and what— what that's— what's that— what that's brought you doing, writing the book.

Yeah, it was, uh, you know, it was a very interesting process because I've always loved to write and I'm a big reader. But it was one of those things where I, you know, I would write, but I could never read back my writing. You know, I always hated reading back my writing, so I wouldn't write. And then my therapist, you know, he presented, obviously in therapy, journaling is a big part of that. And so he got me the idea. He's like, look, start doing your journaling. And I was like, all right, cool. And he said, you know, and I told him about how I hate reading everything back. So he said, look, just write freely, rip it up and Call it a day, but at least you're writing and getting it on paper. And so I did that for for several months years ago, and then that kind of I started being able to read my writing back. And you know because of the the narrative of the story, I'd been told by family members you know for years, oh you should write a book about this. And then I finally decided I was like all right let me just try you know. And so I started writing. But the thing is that I didn't know so much of the information that ultimately comes in the book. And so it was almost like I was a journalist in my own life, and the book allowed me to chase that, which was really interesting. And it was hard, you know, it was really hard. There were periods where I would go like 5 weeks without writing because the memories and the things I was writing about were so intense and so hard that I had to walk away for a second. And then when I was ready, I'd go back and continue. You know, one thing that I, I made some rules for myself, you know, like you have to always be sober when you're writing, you know, be completely honest when you're writing, even if it feels uncomfortable, just push through it and you can edit it back later. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So yeah, it was, it was quite the process and it took, you know, I think I had like 9 drafts of this book. Um, you know, that I kind of started from scratch and wrote the whole thing again, um, because I really wanted to be, to be as raw and vulnerable as I possibly could make it.

Yeah. Did you— you said that you didn't— that you used to not like reading what you'd written. Is that because it was too painful, or it was too, too emotional, or you just didn't like this, this, the story of the past? What I think it was—

I think, you know, it's an interesting question. I think that maybe it was even just seeing a version of myself, you know, that vulnerable version of myself, um, was so unfamiliar to me, you know. And when, when I was writing, I think I was, I was getting those vulnerable parts out. And, um, yeah, it was, it was like reading something from someone that I didn't recognize.

So it— maybe it was the protector part didn't want— the protector part of you didn't want you to read. The vulnerable guy wanted to write and the protector didn't, didn't want to.

100%. Yeah. So you're kind of like fighting against—

yeah, yeah, sorry, just like it does seem nuts, isn't it? Internal civil war, right?

Yeah, that's the best way to put it. Was like this internal battle that I was in, right? And the thing is that I didn't understand so much of the story anyway. I think deep down inside, I probably had a pretty good feeling, but I didn't know what was going on. Yeah.

Yeah. Are you still seeing the therapist?

I am. Yeah. I see.

That might be an interesting. That might be an interesting thing.

Yeah.

To dig into, right?

For sure.

I had a realization off the back of— I use ChatGPT a lot as a thought partner. I think I heard this word, but it just helps me. You've got some You've got some colleagues in the agency that you work in. I'm just a solo socialpreneur or whatever I am. So I bounce ideas off ChatGPT and I asked it, why am I beating myself up? Basically, it doesn't need any more detail than that. And, and it said, so, so because the protector part, perhaps, right, the protector part thinks that if it screams loud enough, you'll stop it. You'll, you'll stop this.

Yes.

This, um, whatever I was doing. And, uh, and I thought, oh wow, I never— I'd never seen it. I'd never seen it like that. And that— Something pretty cool from, from that, from that insight, because I didn't know why, right? You know, you know what, like when you've, when you've got something intellectually but that doesn't do it, right? That doesn't stop it, that doesn't solve the issue, that, that doesn't stop you doing it, right? Then you've, you got to dig a little bit, uh, A little bit deeper.

Yeah, so it's funny, because like on that protective part, like, it's not always the internal dialogue where that shows up. You know, it shows up sometimes silently, just through the way that your body feels, you know? Yeah. And I think that kind of acknowledging how for your— for you specifically, that protective part appears, um, and being able to be like, no, like, we don't need that, you know? That's a really— that's something that I really learned, uh, that was pretty interesting. And then I talk about a lot, um, what I call that— I call it the voice of trauma, right? And it's, it's this dialogue that you have mentally with yourself, but also just with your body.

Yeah. Um, I was, I was gonna ask you about that. And that was what— that was what was behind my question about— you said it's normal to be frozen. And I kind of, as I was listening to you, I underlined the word frozen. And frozen is a body thing, not an inner critic thing, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, I would say, I suppose.

Okay.

No, and I say that because, you know, yes, I think that there is the physical sensation of being frozen. But I think that, you know, I remember times in the past where I would be completely, um, I would be completely frozen. Even my mind, like, I couldn't, like, even decipher what was going on internally. And I was just like, everything was so scrambled that it was like almost thinking was hard.

Yeah. You know, but freezing is a, is a trauma response, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, um, it is. When— because when you said frozen, I thought— and, and we were talking about— we'd be talking about relationships. Um, I, I— the, the thing that popped into my head is I, I wasn't very good with— I'm still not, actually— with, um, skin-on-skin contact. And, and, and that— and I'm presuming that that's, that's some sort of, uh, somatic—

Sure.

Somatic, uh, somatic, uh, implication, some, some, some somatic residue, right? So I, I, and I wasn't, I wasn't aware of it until— I think it was early '90s, in the early '90s, um, you know, the, the girls at work, one of those girls I went on to marry, but, you know, they, they, one of them touched me at the back, on the back of the neck, and I kind of, I was stiff.

Mm-hmm.

I, I froze. I was like, wasn't, and they were like, you know, what's going on? And, uh, other people in my wife's family have said to me though, you didn't used to be a hugger. Simon, you know, it was the contact thing wasn't my space. So at the top of the conversation, we talked about, you talked about 3 sectors for thriving, internal, others, and outside. We've gone pretty deep on the internal stuff.

Yeah.

What's been changing for you on the relationships side or ideas, or, you know, take that as broad as you, as you like. Sure.

Yeah, I mean, I think that in terms of like the relationships, that, that changed drastically once I, um, once I became lighter. And that, you know, it was with my, with my family, with my friends, with my, the people that I work with. Um, I think that as I became more empathetic and more light and more myself, that started to shine with others, and they started to feel that. And it allowed, you know, I just feel like my connections, I guess, became a lot deeper because I wasn't— I didn't have that wall up and I wasn't pushing away. You know, I was able to completely, like, allow people in. And it just strengthened the relationship so much. I mean, even in conversation, the conversations I was having became so much deeper. The way I listened became a lot deeper because there was more. I think I just cared. I really started to care more about the people around me because I really started to care about myself.

Open is the word that pops into my head. I mean, you said wall, right? So the wall came tumbling down. Yeah.

And I mean, I think that similar to kind of your sensation of touch, right? I think mine was more like, just my inability to allow people in. Because I always thought that if I allowed someone in, you know, and give them the most vulnerable part of myself, then they have the ability to leave.

Right?

Because I'm so used to people in my, in my life leaving. Um, and once I understood that the people that are around me that love me and that I love aren't going to do that to me, that's when my relationships with them started to really evolve and change.

Yeah. So perhaps the slight difference between— or not slight difference, the difference between what we're— what I'm— I was talking about physical stuff. You're talking more about, uh, I guess, conversation, conversational stuff rather than physical stuff. Yeah. Um, what was the wall, do you think?

It was just the wall. I mean, the wall really came from the idea of, you know, uh, the fear of abandonment, really. Um, you know, when I looked at it now, I understand it now, but in the past when I looked about my adoption, I never thought about my biological mother leaving. You know, it was something that I was just kind of like, all right, well, That I was so young and so small when that happened, whatever, you know. Then when my brother left, that was like the big hit. And so the, the, the, the wall— I was just so afraid of letting people in, in fear that they would just, you know, eventually leave.

So it's, uh, protection. Well, it's back to the protection thing, really. It's like a protection mechanism to not letting people in unless they—

Yeah, it's just a total shield that you put up for yourself for your survival and for your own wellbeing. But with others, once I, once I was able to bring that shield down, then it completely changed, you know, those relationships.

Yeah.

You know, with my, even, I mean, my, I remember when my folks and I went out to dinner one day and this was maybe 6 months into my therapy and I really started to kind of shed those walls. And, you know, we sat there for like 3 hours and had the best time and it was like, we didn't, you know, we've always had, we've always had a great relationship, But at that moment specifically, it was like everything was just like, um, everything— there was just such a drastic change that everybody noticed it, you know? And I didn't even realize that I maybe had that wall up with them even, you know, um, who were like the closest people that I, that I have.

Yeah, yeah. You mentioned your sister.

Yes.

Yeah. Can you share a little bit more about that?

Of course. Yeah. So, um, You know, through this process of therapy, I found out a lot about my origin story. And so I was going through the motions of trying to reconnect and reunite with my biological family. I use social media quite a bit, or actually I use social media for all of it. And when I was just about to give up my search because I didn't really What I had found was all negative and really painful. I basically said, maybe what? Maybe I'm not meant to go back into that world. You know, maybe I'm doing myself a disjustice. Maybe I was taken out for a reason. So I completely stopped searching, and then like two weeks later, this woman reached out to me, and she's like, "Hey, I saw like your post on Facebook, and I think we're related." You know, and I was like, "This is weird. Usually I'm the one sending those messages." You know. And, um, so we connected and, um, she, we instantly, I realized that she was looking for what I was looking for. Um, because she also never had that, you know, she was, she basically had been by herself since she was 15 years old in Costa Rica. And, um, we sat down and we talked and I gave her all the information that I had. Um, she gave me a little bit of information she had, and then we decided to continue the relationship. And then we talked for like 6 months every single day. Um, and really connected. And then she was just like, hey, would you ever want to come down to Costa Rica and visit? Which was like my biggest fear because I'd never— I hadn't been back since I was 3 when I was adopted.

Yeah.

And so I thought about it really hard and I was like, you know what, maybe this is my— maybe this is the time. And so last October I went down there and I spent the week with her and her, her 2 kids and her boyfriend. And it was, you know, um, I think the most beautiful experience that I've ever had in my life. Was connecting with her, and still to this day, you know, it's been almost it'll be a year on April 28th, the day the book is released, that we connected, and we've spoken every single day since then, and have just like nurtured this beautiful, beautiful relationship. Yeah, you know, it's like I lost my sibling when I was seven, and I never thought I would get that feeling back, and then just through. this whole experience, I, I found that again, but in the most positive of ways.

Yeah. And what's the feeling, Jay?

Um, it's just like the deepest, rawest feeling of just love, you know? Um, it's like that unconditional love that people talk about. I like really, really have that now. And, um, I think that, like, I, you know, I went from kind of protecting myself so much to committing to protecting her by all means, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's the most special— I think the most special relationship that I really have, um, because it's something that I've just always wanted my entire life.

That feels like the right place to bring it in, Jay.

What's that?

That feels like the right place to bring it in.

Yes. Yeah.

Thanks, listeners, and thanks, Jay. We'll speak to you again very soon.

Take care.