Unlocking Our Potential with Carol Homden

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast, and this is the first, first interview of the year. So happy New Year, listeners. Happy New Year, Carol. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Carol, Carol Holmden. Thank you for making time for us today.

My pleasure, and happy New Year. Happy New Year.

So yeah, uh, listeners, uh, Carol and I have planned to do this on 2 previous occasions, but we've got sidelined, uh, by talking about other other stuff, other adoption-related stuff. Um, so here we are, third time lucky. So, um, so what comes to your, um, mind, Carol, when you hear this, uh, this, the name of the podcast, Thriving Adoptees? What, what, what comes to your mind?

What comes to my mind is actually a marvelous thought, which is that, uh, it's so important to celebrate adoptees and their adoptive families in achieving thriving for life.

Yeah.

And I think that's really important to recognize, and also what is involved in that, paying a tribute, as it were, to that lifelong journey which is adoption.

Yeah.

So thank you, Simon, for making these podcasts and for making that possible, and for all of us to travel together in Yeah.

What does thriving mean to you?

What an interesting question. I think thriving means being comfortable with oneself, uh, one's story, and one's potentiality for the future. Doesn't mean that everything is perfect, but it does mean that one has reflected, accepted, considered, and knows that we are— what would be the term perhaps— able to navigate our future with confidence.

Yeah, I, I love all that. I love all that. The area that seems to be least covered on the 500-odd episodes that we've had in the bag, so to speak. And the one that really hits me between the eyes is the most interesting bit too, is the potentiality. So, and this forward-looking. And so, you mentioned story, which looks to me, for me, is we look at his story, is looking in the past. Potentiality, clearly we're talking about the future. So what's potentiality and how does that stack for us as— for the listeners and the adoptees? What does potentiality mean?

Well, again, that's a complex question and I am not a psychologist, but I'm going to answer it from 2 different directions. I'm going to say that If we read a story and we can see the beginning and middle and the end of that story, and we can see the way in which the narrative unfolds and the chapters are written, and the writer has crafted that narrative, and we can see ourselves in relation to that story, it identifies and helps us to identify that we are not the victims of our past. The story can unfold and can be written. in different ways, and that we have agency within that, that we have choices that can be made, that understanding the start of the story as a, as a beginning and understanding our context and our origins is really important to our present. But it also really identifies that we can unlock ourselves different futures. So that's quite theoretical, but here in Coram, we do quite a lot of work with children about reading and the enormous importance of storytelling and reading in helping us to understand that we are able to develop and craft and write our own story. That for me is what potentiality means.

Yeah.

It means that agency. So it doesn't mean having all the skills in the world or learning to speak French or whatever. All of those things may happen. They are part of different pathways, but the potentiality is actually the core self-belief, which is about the fact that we can be agents in that. And I have the privilege to be Chief Executive of the world's first and longest continuing children's charity, the very origin of children's social care, which is itself a story that has unfolded. and one where support to children who have needed the support of others, of other families in order to support them, this is absolutely core to the work that we do. And one of our oldest beneficiaries of the moment, he had been Relinquished into the care of what was then called the Foundling Hospital as a baby. He had experienced that schooling for the 15 or so years of the time. He had entered the army. He had fought in the Battle of the River Kwai. He had lost his ear. He had been a prisoner of war, and he lost his wife to the influenza epidemic. And I said to him, what have you learned, David? And he said, I have learned that you need to accept and adapt. And that has meant so much to me through time, that if we can come to terms with the things that we traveled from and have traveled through, and, and we then learn the skills to adapt and develop, and that is the potentiality. That, that you talk about.

So you're linking kind of that future focus, it's adapting and, uh, that right, writing our own, writing our own future, uh, an empowerment and future-facing approach.

Yeah. Yes. And I think, you know, recognizing the fact that it is children who are adopted And children are development. Children develop. They are— what's the word? They're dynamic. They actually evolve and develop. And we can and do continue to do that. And we can reconsider our story and reacclimatise ourselves within our context. And I think that, I think having a podcast of this nature that allows the different perspectives of thriving adoptees to convey those, it amounts to so much more than the sum of the parts. Each individual story is itself powerful, but the aggregation of all of those experiences is also a really important story.

Yeah. What's coming to my mind as well is because I've done some therapy but not a lot, and— but I, I've been coached a lot. And the idea that this— the central thing for me is that a lot of therapy looks back, whereas coaching is all about looking forward and, and, uh, and to what we want to achieve rather. So it's all about, it's about the, the chance for change in how we feel, think and feel now as an enabler for greater, greater achievement in, in, in, in the future, or the achievement of of goals?

Yes. I mean, a therapeutic journey, which is obviously supported by a very significant amount of scientific understanding and care and skill, is and may be a very important ingredient in this. Equally, one may find one's path, you know, and a child may find their path and a sense of belonging Perhaps in a community of shared experiences or in a community of shared goals. So, for example, sport can play an incredibly important— playing a violin in an orchestra so that one feels not alone. So something very important of with the freedom and permission to explore one's own past and have the courage and skills and support to do that, but also something very important. About the sense of belonging. So often adopted children will, you know, they may be the only adopted child in their school, certainly in the UK, because very few children are actually adopted these days. So it's really important that they know that they're not the only one. They're not the only one today or yesterday or tomorrow.

Yeah, yeah.

And actually that validation of those experiences and that sense of uncertainty or anxiety or whatever can be sometimes greatly facilitated and strengthened.

Yeah.

Just by that. And we've run workshops, for example, for— with older young people who are adopted working with younger young people. And that is so interesting because There will be, for example, conversations that take place about the experience of school or about how my parents don't understand me. And the older adoptees, for example, say, yeah, well, I used to think that, but actually the music is a bit loud, isn't it? And, you know, it's so interesting how that peer support to the experience can be very strengthening. of resilience. But equally, there are other circumstances, as you say, where different types of therapeutic support, whether that's, as it were, psychological and talking therapies, or actually whether it's more sensory work addressing some of the issues that may have occurred, is really vital. And it is very important that people have access to that. In a timely way.

Yes.

But I think the podcast series itself is helping with that sense of belonging and of traveling and of not being alone.

Yes. Yeah. All those things. And the thing that strikes me is the journey and the passing back So the, the idea, what, what's consistent with what we're trying to do on the show and what you just talked about with your mentoring program is to, uh, is to have communication between people at different stages of the journey so that we, you know, we, we, we're, we're catalyzing the healing, we're catalyzing, we're accelerating the growth, we're catalyzing, uh, progress. By sharing what's helped, helped us. And that's one of the things I, you know, people ask me questions about all sorts of different things. I will often say to them is find out somebody who's ahead of you on the journey that you want to take and, and help and ask them what helped them get there. And then that might unlock some stuff within, within you.

What is the message you would have given to your past self?

Yeah.

Is often an interesting way of thinking about that, but with the nuance that there are 2 dynamics here. There is age and there is also stage. So one may be at a different stage in the journey irrespective of age. So, you know, and it's interesting that quite a number of older adoptees, so perhaps adoptees in their 50s or 60s, will say to me is that, um, I've undertaken this journey now, and I'm glad I didn't do that when I was 21, because I'm now at the stage of my life, my age, where the elements of the story that I am uncovering, uh, can be placed in a broader context of the family life that I have gone on to have, for example. And equally, uh, younger children will benefit greatly from just young people a little bit older than them, able to just say, I know, I, I know, I recognize what you're saying. And it doesn't always have to feel like this, you know, you can travel, travel the journey.

Yeah.

So there's no magic bullet, is there, to our, any of us in our, in our navigation of life. But there is, you know, the support and encouragement that we can receive from those around us who have empathy and synergy and compassion.

Yeah. Have you got a favorite metaphor around potentiality?

Oh, I don't think I do. I think there is a saying, but it's that comes into my mind from the poet Rilke, but which actually might sound like it's not about potentiality, but it is. It's translated also from his original German, but it is: Who talks of victory? To see it through is everything. And that travels with me in many contexts, actually, that life is about the seeing through.

Yeah.

And another— this is really not quite addressing your question, and you'll have to forgive me because I can't draw down a metaphor directly. Um, uh, but there's also, uh, the famous speech by Churchill who said that, um, along the lines of, uh, defeat is not final, victory is not absolute, it is the courage to carry on that matters.

Yeah.

I have just that sense actually that that is where The potentiality lies in that courage, in that daily journey of opening up those new opportunities. And the other thing that comes to my mind, it's not really quite a metaphor, but Malala, Malala Yousafzai, said that in a world that is silent, even one small voice is powerful. Yeah. So it's actually Again, it's not quite resonant. I don't quite have one about potentiality, so you'll have to forgive me. But those, those do live with me, that sense of, yeah, the courage, the courage of continuing to explore and travel and reinvent oneself and move to the future.

So the The phrase that pops off to me on the back of that is lifelong learning.

Yes, certainly.

It's never done, never finished. It's lifelong. So you've got lifelong journey and lifelong learning. Yeah, lifelong learning on a lifelong journey.

And the other thing I would say is lifetime opportunity. Because there is a lifetime of moments at which one can open new doors and take new avenues. Yeah. If cross-cutting all of that, one has the courage to carry on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You talked about opening, opening the doors just then. And I think the reason I asked the question, a reason I asked for a metaphor around potentiality is because I think you used the word unlock.

Yes.

And where I was going was, well, what do you see as the keys that unlock our potentiality?

Well, that is such an interesting question. And at Corum, we work a lot in the context of the building of resilience. And there is no doubt that a sense of security is, is really important. Educational opportunity so that one can develop skills and see different avenues that you could potentially take in life. And I think the other thing I would say based on our experience here is The— I'm not going to quite use the word forgiveness, but the, the building of pride, a sense of self, the pride in who I am. Yeah, the building of that ability to be proud of who I am.

Yeah.

And of course, going with that involves That sense of— doesn't mean to say that that's all about me, you know, that it isn't just about self-obsession, but actually about so many of the young people that we work with in Quorum. For example, young people in the care system who may have had a very rough time, multiple moves and a lack of security, lacking in continuity or access to education. perhaps periods of homelessness or worse, they will get involved in activities in working with others. And they so often say to me, I can now feel proud of who I am because I have served others. Yeah. Yeah.

Did we talk about Lem Sissay last time we spoke?

Well, yes. I mean, obviously Lem is a very important and charismatic and powerful important man and figure, and very wise. And of course, the fact that he, he has found poetry as his avenue of expression and gives us so many powerful metaphors, and the way in which he then shares those moments and rays of light and potentiality through his work, and his generosity in sharing his journey, which had very troubled times within it, but sharing the way in which he's navigated that journey. And I feel sure, but I absolutely hope that Lem would feel rightly proud of who he is.

Yeah.

He's doing so much work in the service of others. So that is a very interesting case study that you raised there. And, you know, I would commend people to read His book, and indeed his— well, it's not Twitter anymore, but his social media, where his little rays of light on different days, seeing the world from different perspectives, you know, gives one that, yeah, that encouragement. Yeah.

Yeah, I've listened to his book on audio. and loved it. But I've found it— because he's known for his poetry, but I, I've never dived into his poetry, only his life story. So this, this guy was, uh, he, he was, he, he was adopted, wasn't he? And then that, they— then, then that ended and he went into care and he— yeah, and he, he, he had a, he had a really tough time.

But, um, yes, he, he was adopted. His adoption then broke down and at a very difficult age and stage too. So he then had a very turbulent adolescence with a lot of very complex and difficult experiences in residential care. And then I suppose it must have been in his 20s, but certainly as he got older, he then accessed his records and explored his story and found actually his, you know, his literally his name.

Yeah.

His name had been changed, and then was able to rediscover his roots and to learn much more around the circumstances and realities of his mother's situation.

Yeah.

Which brought him then a much greater sense of, well, what would be the words, kind of settlement of Of issues, I suppose. But it's not for me to speak for him. But his book is very compelling on that.

Yeah. That word settled sounds like a really good word for thriving.

Yes.

A word settled and grounded. The, the, the— going back to the potentiality, the word that popped into my head— so you talked about, um, resilience, security, forgiveness, pride, um, and education. The word that popped into my head was openness.

Yes.

Rather than being set in our ways. And, you know, people talk about mindset, and I think about— when I think about set, I think about concrete. Setting and being intransigent and, and, and hopefully not becoming a grumpy old man, because grumpy old men are by their nature, right, set in their ways, their nature. And, and I don't want to be a grumpy old man. Um, my wife probably say that in some aspects I am becoming more set in my ways, but the opposite of, uh, the opposite of set would seem to me to be open, and instead of mindset, I'd be thinking about kind of mind fluid.

Yes, it takes a level of confidence and a level of inherent settlement to be able to be open in that way, I think. So I have a little, uh, well, I'm not quite sure what the term would be, but a little way in which I sometimes would describe the work that Coram is involved in, and it would go like this: I stopped crying because no one picked me up. I don't try because I might fail. I hurt myself So no one can hurt me more. So, as it were, the risk of trying and the risk of rejection, it, it, it may be a very significant barrier that needs to be unlocked. Hence the importance of this sense of place in the world and of being able to come to terms with And openness is very important in that. I just come back to that. In order that you can then have the confidence, courage, and so on to be open, because it is that that opens the potentiality. That's why the word unlock for me is so important. But it's not like there is a single key or a magic bullet. It is a process that involves a number of those different ingredients. And the reason I was flagging openness, which is I thought where you might be going, is of course in the story of care and in the story of adoption, we have moved so significantly from an era of anonymity. Or perhaps it wasn't in many circumstances, certainly in Coram's history, it wasn't so much an anonymity as a not knowing. So, and still, you know, there are circumstances around the world where adoptions take place where actually the identity of the child is not known. But certainly in general, we have moved from a sense of anonymity and not sharing that information, and it therefore being a mystery and a and an absence, which is probably the most difficult to come to terms with, to a modern approach, which is to say adoption is always based on openness of all the available information, you know, subject of course to the welfare of the child and the age and stage of that child, because there can be some very profound and complex matters that have led to adoption, which obviously need care in, in their sharing. But nonetheless, the principle is one of that openness, and I'd be interested in, in your perspectives on that, Simon. But it seems to me that that is the biggest shift, really the major shift, along with social attitudes that had really kind of packaged that, that sense of lack of transparency and information with layers of perceptions of shame.

Yeah.

And stigma and sin to a modern sense, which is more— in some ways is a more compassionate system and a more recognition of the fact that Um, having no information may well be a harmful absence in itself, a trauma in itself.

Yeah, and the questioning, the incessant questioning that many adoptees have to share with me that they have had from a very early age, and that wasn't my That wasn't my experience. I wasn't questioning a lot, but I know a lot of people, a lot of adoptees do.

Yes, I mean, that is tied up with this complex question around a sense of relinquishment, a sense of an unknown story, a sense of pressures or forces that must have made that happen. Yeah, which I think is also, um, a different experience, certainly in the UK, than the modern experience where adoption was very much a service, is very much a service for children for whom protection is a principal driver. So there are, there are differences But as well underneath very profound shared experiences in that sense of searching and loss. But in the many hundreds of years of this organization supporting children in these explorations, it is a minority who have wanted or come to that point of wanting to fully explore, uh, all of those issues.

So what about the, the, uh, the potentiality and, and this notion of exploration and openness and curiosity and agency? How do all these things create, uh, help us create a better future for our— for ourselves and our fellow travelers.

Do you mean for ourselves or for others?

Well, um, either. Pick, pick the one that you, you've— that, that you feel, uh, drawn to, that your gut takes you to.

Well, I don't know that I have fully the expertise to answer that from a kind of fully psychological basis, but what I would— what I think I would say is that we, we need to live our values. So if we share our experiences with others, we are demonstrating that openness and that journey of exploration in its positive sense. So in that sense, it is the extension of, of a gift and of guidance. And back to that point about permission, almost like a permission. To, uh, to extend— for the other person to extend their hand. And quite a lot of work that we, we do in charity is around helping people to find tools to do that together. So we have been developing something called, um, uh, Objects in Our Stories, which is, uh, designed to help It could be social workers, it could be foster carers, it could be our friends, which is that finding those points of connection and exemplifying the story through the choice of an object that we share, because then you have, as it were, a repository for the shared connection and the shared journey. which is a trust and a point, yeah, as I say, a point of connection that you can make. So that can be enormously helpful, partly because even a young child will be able to perhaps say, why the teddy? You know, they might choose the teddy. And so you can immediately then explore the issues around why teddy matters and the fact that I had a teddy too. my grandma gave me my teddy, and where did your teddy come from? Do you see what I mean? I'm not meaning for that to sound trivial, and I have chosen an experience for a young child. But equally, it might be something which is a more reflective piece, you know, or imagery, and so on. And having those points of connection, as I say, that That gift, that extended bridge, I think is personally extremely crucial in, in what you're describing.

I, I love that, and I think it plays back to what you talked about, the mentoring process, the mentoring systems you have at Ecorum. You mentioned earlier on, like, older, older kids helping younger kids, and does the, uh, does the empowerment that comes from this, and, and also the idea, you know, that if we are— we're often prepared to do more for others than we are for doing it for ourselves. And, uh, obviously we just now start— here we are on the 8th of January, whatever it is. Um, was it 8th, 9th? Um, we're, we're thinking about— I'm thinking about Christmas and the idea, you know, that Giving, giving gives such pleasure.

Hmm.

Um, so we get, we get back in spades when we pick out a present, when we help somebody else. We get, uh, we, we get a lot of, uh, we get a good, a good feels, I believe is the current, uh, word. We can't say feelings anymore, it's too many syllables. We have to say feels. Right. Um, but you know, the— and there's often that point where we are, uh, we, we become keen, we became— we want to share our stories in case it helps, uh, others. And, and how important that is in the, uh, the world of adoption and how I met so many of your great colleagues last year at the conference, the adoption conference in Liverpool. And, you know, I was the panelist and I was encouraging the people there, were all there to share their stories and to share their learnings and how they're throwing themselves into that opportunity. And getting bucketloads of benefit back for them, for themselves. And it, I think it often happens somewhere along our own learning journey that we feel that we want to kind of give back.

Yes, and, you know, adoption is not unique in that.

I mean, clearly, yeah.

I mean, I have a son with very complex needs who is autistic and has learning difficulties, and it's, you know, it's been of great strength in very difficult times to actually, in the same way, to be able to connect with other parents, perhaps with children who are older. So You know, how do you see what the journey might look like, you know, when you're facing so many things and so much kind of stress and grief? And so that is— I think it applies to us as members of other types of communities as well. I think these are the kind of human truths. But there is something, I think, very particular about the sense of identity of living in between lines. So this is where we have had the privilege of working with a group of young adoptees, young who are in their 20s, So they have, you know, come through their schooling system and some of them will have accessed records or accessed therapy. But this group of young people who are living in blended families with sometimes with birth children as well as other adoptive siblings who are coming from different nationalities, different ethnic backgrounds, They have been exploring with us the— these issues of navigation of blended identities, of identities in between lines. And I think adoption and thriving adoptees have so much to teach us and to share, which is so vital to the modern world, which is so fluid. in the sense of communities and identity and diversity. And I've just been immensely impressed by the ways in which those young people have traveled that journey and used that journey not only for themselves in terms of their own discovery and potentially recovery and place in the world, but actually seen that as something that they can then Take forwards to help others. A real good—

So, um, this is— regular listeners, you might have listened to a podcast with a, uh, a young adoptee called, uh, Anthony. His, his surname's just gone out my head.

Uh, Lynch.

Anthony Lynch. Yeah, so I'll put a link in the show notes. Uh, this, this, uh, Anthony Lynch has been on the podcast before, and, and he's one of the adoptees that you're talking about with this particular Uh, cohort. So quick, a quick idea, um, that, uh, a request: if there's any more of those younger adoptees that want to come on the podcast, they'd be very welcome to have a conversation with me, to sign up if it's okay, you know, find out if, if they want to, to do that, because we knew we do need, uh, different, you know, more younger adoptees.

Yes, I will, I will let them know, Simon. And in particular, several of them have had inter- country experiences, which I think is also a key ingredient within the story of adoption and very resonant to a sort of globalised world where the navigation of cultural and linguistic backgrounds has become much more amplified than it used to be years ago.

Yeah, in the UK, yeah. You mentioned when you're talking about some of your, uh, your own private life. You're talking— you mentioned the word grief.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and that's a word that's often associated— a lot of adoptees talk about grief. I did, I did like, uh, a grief program as a, as a client last year to see if there was any uh, grief that I wasn't aware of, to kind of— if there was unconscious grief, right, just to see if it surfaced, if I could surface some stuff as part of my own ongoing journey. And that— it didn't, it didn't bring a lot for me, actually. The somatic stuff that I've, that I continue to do, that, that's been far more helpful.

Yeah.

But, um, I was wondering if you if you're up for it, could you share a little bit more about the grief stuff and you? And if you'd rather not, then clearly we've done that.

Yes, well, I mean, it's a great privilege to speak to you, and I am not an adopter, although I have worked in the field of adoption with and for the Coram Charity in their service for many years. But there is such a great resonance to the experience that I have had as a parent of a child with complex needs. And of course, within the UK context, many children within the care system and who go on to be adopted may well also have additional needs in a disability or a special educational needs sense. So there's a journey there around, you know, I could express it like this, which is, imagine the day that you're told that your child has a condition which cannot be cured, and where they will experience marginalisation and challenges, and so will you. So With autism and my experience of autism, working with many families who have autistic children, there's first of all the, we knew something wasn't right and we just didn't know what it was and we were struggling and exploring how we come to terms with this. And then the diagnosis is achieved. And there's a kind of relief. It wasn't me. It wasn't I was doing it wrong. You know, it wasn't the wrong parenting or whatever. It— you're right, there is something and this is it. So initially there would be perhaps a moment of relief. And then there would be a grief. Which was actually around all that was not. And all that that would not be. And then actually something about realizing that, and potentially a loss of social support network, of others not coping with that, even family.

Wow.

And then the rediscovery of a sense of belonging in the community, of fellows who understand, and that there is a journey, and that it— there is that potential and possibility to make our way in the world, and for our autistic son to realize his best potentiality. So I don't know if that rings true entirely, and there are obviously differences. But for me, that has always felt like a real bridge.

Uh, it's a human— it's a very human story. And there are the, the— that, you know, it's the— is it the, um, the hero's journey? There is, there, there is that one. So the, the— so for many of us adoptees, the diagnosis is, is coming out of the fog. The diagnosis is the prime— is the primal wound. Uh, and then the, uh, and then the, the sense that we're— so for me personally, right, it was the, the sense I'm, I'm stuck with it, right? So that's the, that's the grief of, of what's—

Yeah, the loss.

What's lost. And then there's, uh, that— then there's the, uh, the seeing through that, in my case, Um, belief-created obstacle. That, that, that was, that was mindset, you know, in, in terms of— so that, so the, the, there's the mindset and then there's, then there's the moment of mind fluidity when you realize that it, it, I am not stuck with With this. And then there's the community thing. So I think the parallels are human ones and to do with challenges and things that we haven't envisaged before.

Yeah. And for me, to see it through is everything.

To see it through is everything. Yeah.

Yeah. So We all have so much more to learn from each other and from the podcast. So, you know, I commend you, Simon, for doing it and all those who contribute. And I hope that the reflections are useful to all who may listen.

I'm sure they will be. Thank you. Thank you very much, Carol. And thank you, listeners, for listening to the first of this year's. We'll have lots more coming your way, no doubt. See you again soon. Thanks a lot.