Unshackling From Trauma With Adoptee Suni Zmich

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Sunny, Sunny Zmish. Looking forward to our conversation again. Sunny's been on the podcast before, had a fantastic conversation, and this is going to be a great one too. So I'm looking forward to this. So healing, what does healing mean to you, Sunny?

Oh, thanks for asking, Simon. So I think what healing means for me is that when my trauma no longer affects my current day judgment, and, and, and by affects, I mean negatively affecting it. And certainly our past is always going to be a part of our present. And it will affect our judgment in positive ways, hopefully, if we learn from it. But healing means that I can move forward without the shackles of my trauma.

Beautiful. Um, I, I, I love it all. I love it all. Uh, and I'm very interested in the term Judgment. So what do you mean by judgment?

Okay, by judgment, I don't mean being judgy, right? So that's not— that's not what I mean. Judgment, meaning my decision-making process.

Okay. So do you remember The first time you had that thought, did you have that thought before, before I asked you the question?

Um, no, before you, before you asked the question, I did not have that thought. So you made me really think about it. Um, that it just means to me, it just means that I have better discernment. Because when I was younger and I was still trapped in my trauma, I was certainly an idiot.

Yeah.

So I hopefully am less of an idiot these days because I do feel like my judgment is better. And, and by judgment, I mean having my eyes open to the needs of others or to their Perhaps their traumas or their motivations. And maybe my definition might unfold compassion, which I certainly didn't have as much of when I was younger.

Yeah.

So I think healing is not only an inward action, but it's also— it also extends to other people. Because you have more grace for things that happen. Yeah. With our fellow human beings.

Yeah, I love that. Um, so I was talking to, uh, to Jill Ushiyama, who's been on the show today. She's a, um, she's a filmmaker, and, uh, we were talking about some ideas a couple of, a couple of weeks ago. And we're looking at a film, and, and the idea— something that came to me is this idea that this central tenet of filmmaking is that it's called the— it's called the hero's 2 journeys.

Right.

It's called the hero's 2 journeys, and how it relates to what you're just saying is The hero's 2 journeys are, one is the outward journey and the other one is the inward journey, right? So the inner journey is what's going on for us internally and the outward journey is going on, going with what's going on within our relationships with other people. So we might be focused on our adoptive parents, we might be focused on our biological parents, we might be focused on both. And to, to look at those as it, it, you know, like feelings are an inside job.

Yeah.

So we're looking at the inner journey with our feelings and um, but the world around us. And it— so it's separating, discerning, to use your word, which I think is a great one. It's discerning, you know, the environment and other people and our kind of internal environment. And if we can kind of separate those, if we can separate those two, then that's gonna— then hopefully we will be Uh, you know, and, and I will be, I, as you are, less, you know, I, I will be less of an idiot, right? I will cause less stuff. I will—

Sure. Yeah.

So let me give you an example about what I'm talking about. So, um, I got a message from somebody, a fellow adoptee, and it became Uh, I had really messed up.

Okay.

I, I'd messed up. And when I read that email, in the past, that email telling me that I'd messed up would have really upset me. How could I do that? How could I be so silly? Instead, when I— when the email landed in my inbox, I could see the truth in what the person said, right? So I know that I— I know that I need to change, but I, I, I, I— the, the need for me to change isn't like a— isn't a charged need. Do you know what I mean? I'm, I'm— I, I, I can be Uh, I'm— I, I can look forward and hopefully be a better person without beating myself up about what I've done in the past with this particular person. Do you see what I mean?

So for you, do you think healing means that you stop beating yourself up for things that you've done in the past?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes. And I, I was also— I would also have been triggered So when that email landed, if that email landed, the one that landed a couple of days ago, if that had landed, say, 6 months ago, because I did a bit of some therapy stuff before, before Christmas, I think, and that shifted a thing, a few things for me. If that landed 6 months ago, I would have actually felt, you know, like people go red in the face when they're embarrassed.

Yes.

When I make a mistake I, I kind of feel red all over.

Mm-hmm.

So it's, it's like, it's a, it's a flush of, I don't know, embarrassment, pain, shame, beating myself up. And, and something, something shifted through this therapy work that, that, that I've done. And so I know I can, I, I know I need to change my behavior, whatever. But I, but I wasn't triggered by the email, um, landing.

What specifically— that's really interesting. I hope that's okay that I asked, but what specifically helped you in therapy to make that subtle shift?

Ah, okay. So that's the interesting bit because I started the therapy looking at pre-verbal trauma. So we did bodywork in the therapy session. There was a bit— obviously there was some talking, but it wasn't, it wasn't like a talk therapy session. It was, um, it, it was some mysterious ninja stuff.

Oh wow.

That happens through doing bodywork, right? So the— do you know what I mean? It's, it's pre-verbal, it's non-verbal, it's, it's, uh, we I, I did some work about, um, basically feeling, uh, pain, anger, frustration in my body. And, and, and it— where did the therapist say, well, where did we— where did you start? You know, I'm looking at the, the pain in the chest. I'm feeling in the chest. And then I actually, as she was doing it, I actually felt the It was like a ball, and it started in my chest, and it ran down one arm to my hands, and it ran down the other arm to my hands. And it would— to me, that kind of signified, if it signifies anything, the need to do something.

Yeah.

Yeah, the need to do something. So it's like, um, maybe it's an avoiding— an avoidance tactic. So for example, Like, so we're— I'm bored, right? So I think, all right, what am I gonna do now to get— I need to do something to get outta my boredom. That's what I felt. That's what it felt to me in the therapy sessions when we're talking about our hands.

Hmm.

But it's mystical ninja stuff because you're working on pre-verbal trauma.

Oh, I absolutely believe in that. Your body holds— our bodies hold our memories before we were able to speak, and there are certain things that trigger it. In fact, I was just writing about that yesterday, my experience in Korea.

Yeah.

I definitely had pre-verbal memories that surfaced as I went through the markets, and all the smells and sights and tastes, everything just triggered something in me that I couldn't assign a specific memory to, but I knew that I had been there before. So these— that what you're describing in your body is where you hold those memories because you don't have the language for it.

Indeed. And to me, this— the idea that I've had on the back of that was that, uh, we feel the past in the present. We feel— and you, you mentioned something about that along those lines. You, you use past and present. We feel the past in the present. So yeah, we feel our past in, in the present. And then you've got this, you've got this separation. And I think you've got, you've got, you've got a differentiation between I think it's implicit memory and explicit memory. So the implicit memory is the stuff that you haven't got words for, right? You don't remember, you don't remember walking, you don't remember being sat in a pram being pushed around the market when you were a kid.

In a pram, that means a stroller?

A stroller, yeah.

Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah.

Yep. Um, you don't remember that, so it's not an explicit memory, it's an implicit memory. Something's been triggered when you're walking around, around the market in Korea, present day, or whatever it was. Then it, it, it's triggered, um, an implicit memory.

Yes, I That's fascinating, and I'm so pleased and happy for you that you were able to look at it and identify it, not run away from it, and that it's helped you move into a positive mindset.

Yeah, thank you. And we're not— as a human race, I don't think we're very good at Spotting our own change. Like, we, we spend so much time in our own heads that, you know, the, the, the little voice is usually a negative one rather than a positive one.

Yeah, sure, it can be.

Yep. So the other idea I want to, to, to talk about from what you said You talked about, um, the shackles of your trauma, um, and you talked about, uh, breaking free. Oh no, you talked about being trapped. That's one, isn't it? Trapped by our trauma. Now there's a, there's a metaphor. There's a metaphor.

An alliterative metaphor.

Yeah, we love a bit of alliteration, don't we? Trapped by our trauma. and, and shackled to our trauma so that we're kind of— to use a different metaphor, the one that came to mind as you were talking, I was thinking about the fact that we see, see the world through adoptees' lenses.

Yeah, you and I do, sure, because we're both adoptees.

Yes, and we've both got glasses on. Funny enough, but yours are cooler than mine, right? So when we think— when you think about the judgment, when the judgment and, and the— not, not judging people, but decision-making and things like that— if, if we are trapped, if we're trapped by our trauma, trapped in our trauma, if we're shackled to our trauma, then we, we view the world through a trauma lens, don't we? So healing is ceasing to view others and the world through a trauma lens. So it's almost like a diff— it's like, you know, like, um, you can't see— are you a skier? You into your— have you ever been snow skiing? You ever tried that?

I have tried it. I am not proficient, not even close, but yes, I know what you're saying.

You know what I'm saying? Did you, did you wear sunglasses or goggles when you were skiing? Do you remember? Or both?

I wore sunglasses.

You wore sunglasses, right? Okay, so if you put a pair of yellow sunglasses on, right, you can't see white snow, you just see yellow snow.

Yeah. Yes.

Just a yellow slope, because our lens, our lens is determining what we see. So it's almost as if you're talking healing as taking the yellow sunglasses off when you're on the ski slope. And seeing white snow.

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Um, certainly, um, for me, healing started to happen when I looked at other angles. So not just through the lens of the adoptee, but through parents and birth parents. It also opened my eyes to the fact that everyone who approaches the adoption community, or almost everyone, comes to it with a little bit of shackled trauma themselves. And so understanding that is really what helped me heal. So for you, it was taking your yellow glasses off. For me, it was talking and listening to other people and hearing and really hearing their stories. Yeah.

And that's, that was presumably during the process of writing your book or before you wrote the book? Was it before they wrote the book?

It was during the book writing process. Yes.

Do any particular moments come to mind when you saw that for the first time? Or not the first time, but at a deeper level?

Oh, for sure. The— when I— the, the most notable one for me was when I met my first birth mother. So I, I didn't know that she was a birth mother when, when someone introduced me to her. So when we commenced with the interview, I thought she was an adoptive mother. But obviously, you know, within the first minute or two, I figured out, oh, but we kept on with the interview. And just her— oh gosh, um, she was so emotional and so genuine and just a beautiful person. Just understanding that her trauma came before Her daughter was even born. Just something about that story, understanding that the trauma didn't necessarily start with her daughter, but with her circum— the mother's circumstance.

Just—

it brought me to tears. It just— And, and then speaking to subsequent birth parents. Helped me understand that there's more to the community than just adoptees. And so not that I was glad that they were hurting, but the fact that I was not alone in my own hurt was what really helped me move Was that, was that because there was an—

was there an element of you seeing, um, how, how your, your birth mother's trauma had impacted you while you were in, in, in utero? Or was that— I'm barking up the completely wrong tree then?

Oh, that's another angle too. Certainly it had to have affected me, um, because, you know, when you're— I'm a mother and I was pregnant twice, and certainly your baby becomes a part of who you are. You're— it's, it's the symbiotic relationship when you're pregnant. And certainly when I was upset, I could feel My baby in utero, she was also upset. Or it just so you can't. There's no way that a baby can be born and taken and you know be surrendered for adoption. There's no way that that baby doesn't remember the time in utero.

In the, what's it, the implicit memory stuff? Yeah.

Yes, there's, there's absolutely no way that that won't affect a baby.

And no one's, um, no, no one's expressed that quite as clearly to me as you just did now. So I think what you said is, if you're upset, your baby's upset. Is that what you said?

Yes, I did. And so think about the trauma.

Are you thinking about your birth mother?

Yes. So yes, thank you for bringing back that question. My short-term memory these days escapes me when I— especially when I go off on a tangent. Um, but yes, it did get me. So Speaking, thinking about my birth mother. So in interviewing all of these birth parents, what ended up helping me heal was understanding and subsequently forgiving my birth mother, because there's no way that she could have surrendered without any Trauma of her own, and her trauma came first.

Do you remember the moment that when that kind of spontaneous forgiveness happened?

Um, probably after I had time to reflect with this first birth mother's interview.

Do you remember how that felt in the moment? Do you remember a specific moment around that?

I don't know if it was a specific moment, but it was just trying to give a bit— like maybe I had been this overfilled balloon. for my entire life. And then finally the knot was released, and it just, you know, released all of the hurt and emotion and anger. And, you know, just that amalgam of, you know, just that quagmire of emotions. I can't get— that's all mixed up into your origin story, just kind of released because I finally had understanding. And so the healing, I think, for me happens when you have understanding of someone else's life and their situation and their circumstance. And I have not met my birth mother, and I don't actually think I will. I've Tried, and that's a whole nother story. Went to Korea last year. But, um, just understanding the— what she must have felt helped me step forward.

Yeah. I, I don't know whether— do you realize the profundity of the stuff that you're sharing here?

Um, I do, but I, I have thought about this quite a bit. I've been, you know, writing quite a bit, and so I have examined this. Yes.

You're bringing tears to my eyes on this stuff.

Good ones.

Good ones. Good ones. Yeah. Oh, well, putting some stuff into words, right? So No, listen, as she's making a frown face, this is good stuff, right?

Yeah.

You know, like sometimes I, I watch, you know, when I, I get that, I get that feeling often when I talk to— we've had a few birth mothers on there on the show now. Um, when I speak to birth mothers, when I watch birth mothers on Tally. It often makes me, makes me cry because it takes me back to, to a moment very similar to the moment you had when the, when the balloon burst. And I, I, I, I, I was asking you about the moment because I In, in, in my experience, it has been— it, it's a thing that happens. Healing is a thing that happens in the moment. It happens—

Can you tell me about your experience? Sorry, I'm very, I'm very curious. Can you tell me about your experience?

Well, yeah, I, I can. I'm hesitating slightly, but I, I— did I tell you about reading the letter from my birth mother?

Yes.

Yes. So it— listeners have heard this before. Sorry, listeners, but it was that, right? So, okay, I read the letter, um, I read the letter from Pat, Patricia, my birth mother, and floods of tears came down my face. And they, they made me realize— well, they gave me the empathy like you gained the empathy. They gave me the insight like you gained the insight. And they, for me, they, they, the insight shifted 40 seconds of the most profound pain I've ever felt. And I realized I'd been wrong in those 40 seconds.

Yeah.

Um, and you put it beautifully, you know, her, um, her trauma came before mine. That's kind of similar vibe to what I got. I also got the power imbalance, which was an interesting one. I felt the power imbalance between my birth mother Pat, who was 22, And, and, um, and this— the social worker who was presumably older but in a position of authority. I, I got that power imbalance, and, um, and I got kind of most of all, I got her desperation. I got my birth mother's desperation. I felt her desperation. And I felt there was no— I felt connected with her. I felt she and me were one. And it's, it's those moments of insights that, you know, take a— take our mind blowing, literally mind blowing in a good way. They blow our mind, they blow our false beliefs out of the water. Uh, and that's why I was— that's why I'm so delighted that you could remember that, that, that stuff, because we're hoping that— what's the podcast about? You know, I'm getting tingly now just saying it. What we're trying to do, we're trying to catalyze some insights. We're trying to share our healing moments Now I'm getting goosebumps all over. We're trying to, we're trying to share our insights in the hope that that catalyzes insights. And we're going deep, but there's no, there's no, it's an infinite depth thing that we're here.

I agree.

Do any other healing moments come to mind?

When I went to Korea last August, my family and I went There were moments, there were several moments that were both. It was, it was somewhat of a mixture. So in America, as a minority, as a Korean, I'm very aware that most people around me are not Asian. And so being in Korea, stepping off the plane, just being in a sea of Asian people in a city and everyone we, you know, I just blended in except for my American clothes, obviously. But they knew I was American in that way. But the few times that I did have on outfits that were somewhat Korean, unless I opened my mouth, I felt like I belonged. So that would— that was healing. And then, of course, then there's a duality to it. So if I tried to order a cup of coffee or something, something pretty normal, I also felt sad because I wasn't able to speak the language that I was supposed to speak. I mean, I'm, you know, And so I couldn't just have a lighthearted conversation with anybody because I didn't have the language. So then I was reminded, okay, there's a duality to me. I'm very much American, but the Korean part of me is undeniable. So it was healing being in my country of origin. In some ways, but it was also— it also brought up, um, reminders that my situation is not unique because there are other Korean adoptees, but unusual.

What, what went on for you when I, I was thinking about their expectations? So you go into a shop, somebody, the person, well, you go into a coffee shop, whatever, you go into a cafe, you walk to the, you walk to the till, and then, and the Korean person behind the till looks at you and expects you to talk Korean to her.

Yes.

And you talk English.

And then I went, right. And well, no, I don't talk English. I did, I did. Um, take some Korean lessons. So I did. I speak like a toddler. I speak Korean like a toddler. So I can order a coffee, but then if there's anything more to that, I can't. And obviously my accent is American, so oftentimes they would just switch over to English for me.

Yeah.

So, so I, I couldn't get away with it if I had to speak.

Yeah.

There's, um, I did order a pair of shoes from a beautiful shoemaker And he made them custom for me because I have very unusually unusual size feet. And when I went to pick them up, a woman was outside taking a picture, trying to get a selfie with him because he's very famous in Korea. And so she looked at me and she just handed me her phone, and I knew what she was saying. I didn't, you know, take a picture of us. So I did, and I handed it back to her, and I— and it was a wordless transaction. So that was fun for me because She thought I was Korean Korean, not an adopted Korean. So that, that was, that was, um, helpful.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was a good day.

But it, it doesn't sound like it, that it jarred for you. It doesn't sound like it was a jarring experience when, yes, yes, you ordered the coffee, um, And, and you can order the coffee because you know enough to order the coffee. But you— but the— you— it sounds— it's not— it doesn't sound like there's a lot of charge to the frustration for you.

Oh, um, well, I think it was more— it wasn't really— I wouldn't say it was frustrating. I think the adjective I might assign to it was, uh, maybe a melancholy or sadness, or kind of a more of a longing, because I knew I was there and just made me sad that I couldn't. Um, but at the same time, just being in the presence of my people of origin was very extremely happy for me.

Yeah.

That, that, that brought joy. And, and my life revolves around food. And so my digestive system that week was beautiful because all of the food, Korean food agrees with me physically. And so that was just—

Wow.

Um, healing, just in taking in the, the, the food from— that was grown in the soil in Korea. I can have Korean food in America, but there's something a little different about it. But being in Korea, and when we went to my hometown where, where my orphanage was Very small. We went to a restaurant, and the earthiness of the kimchi and the mushrooms was like none other that I had ever had, and that felt very healing to me.

Have you heard the word taroar? No. So I don't know if I pronounced it. Particularly, it's a French word. So it is terroir. I can't cut that around. It's like you know when the word territory. Think of the word territory, right? It's it's a bit like that. So winemakers talk about the terroir, which is basically the the essence of this of the soil, right? And and the climate. And it's the kind of the— it's the X factor of the vineyard.

Mm-hmm.

That's what I— that was the thing that came to me when you talked about the earthiness of it. And, you know, and it tasted— it was the taste of home, wasn't it? It was the taste of home. It was the terroir of home.

Absolutely, it was.

So we're into a, like, a multisensory, we're into a multisensory, um, thing here. We, we, we've moved way past the kind of verbal stuff. Yeah.

Oh, absolutely. It was, you know, I, I'm certain I probably tasted it as a, a baby or in, you know, in utero even, you know, the Kimchi flavors. And absolutely, yes. So not only do you feel the mother's emotions, but you absolutely physically get the taste in your mouth as an infant too.

It, it is the— it's the taste of home. It's like being home.

It was being— it was like being home, but it was also Um, not because I can't deny that American—

Yeah.

Um, food culture is in me too. So it's like I, um, I originated there, but then I was carved out in America and shaped, molded differently. So when I go back, it's just not quite right, but it is right, but it isn't. The duality of it just, you know, runs parallel and There's just, um, you can't remove one.

Yeah, it cuts both ways.

It does.

And, and, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of, there doesn't seem to be a lot of confusion there. You're not confused about it cutting both ways. You're kind of happy. You're happy, happy-ish. You're content with it cutting both ways. Apart from, you did mention about the marriage.

I don't know that I am content. I mean, I, I, you know, talking about it, you're, you're hearing the happy side, right? So the happy side of fitting. But I don't know that overall I'm, um, happy about it. It is very, um, it's a push-pull thing. So depending on the day, some days I might be happier about it, some days, yeah, it makes me very sad because, um, I don't necessarily have a way to fit in either culture. So lately I've been Communing with other Korean adoptees. And there's some— there's a, um, a comfort level that we have with each other, even though we don't know each other very well, because it's that, um, same displacement that we all have.

Yeah.

The, uh, what's the word?

Diaspora. Diaspora.

Yeah, right. Right. So, and we don't have to try to explain it to anybody. It is just something that's understood. And so we can hang out and we don't have to have deep conversations, but we can hang out and have a meal or just be and don't have to get into a deep conversation necessarily unless we want to, but there's already that understanding.

It's unsaid, isn't it? Um, it's an unsaid bond. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I came up with this idea this morning which was, um, at peace with the war. Yeah, so I can't think of it. I can't think of an example. So sometimes I've got, you know, I've got 2 voices in my head, right? So it's a not very civil or, right? One is saying, all right, so I'll give you an example, right? One would be, Simon, you're still not making enough of a difference and you're not making a living out of it, making a living out of making a difference. And that And you should have done, right? So that's one thing. And then I would say that another part of me would say, it doesn't matter, Simon. None of that matters. Forget about that. You've got past that. Don't worry about it, right? So there's a war going on in my head between these two things. And then I get upset about that war, right? But being at peace with the war is saying, well, one side of your brain is always going to say that, Simon, and the other side of your brain is going to say the other thing. And that's just the way it is. So, uh, these two, these two thoughts are never going to reconcile. They're never going to come to peace. They're always going to be at war. But you can be at peace with the war.

And by peace, you don't mean peaceful, you just mean acceptance, right?

I mean, yeah, I mean, accept— well, yeah, I do mean peace. I do actually mean peace.

Okay.

At one level up. So you could, um, yeah, it's one level up from acceptance, probably a couple of levels up from acceptance.

Okay. Um, well, I don't think I'm there. I think I'm certainly— I recognize the war and I accept that there is a war because I don't have a choice. But for me, It's delving into both sides, and it doesn't mean I have to like it. So there I sound like a toddler, I guess. But I do, I do understand, and I've wrapped my brain around that there's always going to be 2 sides to me. Yeah, there's going to be the American side and there's going to be the Korean side. And just, I think it's going to be a lifelong journey for me trying to put the 2 pieces together or bridging it. So that, I think that's probably where the difference is. I don't know that I'll ever be at peace about it, but I certainly accept that that's my reality.

But, and a lot of people that I've interviewed Have had a lot less peace.

Mm-hmm. Sure. I mean, sure, you're gonna— you can fight it, or you can look at it and examine it. And so I think in the examination, for me, is where the healing comes. I mean, that's to, you know, to bring it full circle, the— you, you want to talk about healing, but for me, healing is— comes along in the examination. Of my adoption. Yeah.

And the other thing I wanted to say is I'm not always at peace with the world.

Oh, okay.

It's not, it's not a, uh, steady state. It's not a— yeah, it's not a steady state. It's not, it's not constant. It's not like we've had it, you know, it's not like it's over and done.

Okay, got it.

Comes back. Yeah, so there's—

so you're human. That's good.

And that's it. Yeah, so my— I mean, this is the thing. This is the thing, really. Um, yeah, that is human. If, if we are— if we're okay with not— I've said this— if we're okay with Not feeling okay. We're always okay.

Yeah, okay. I'll buy that.

Good, because we're out of time.

Okay. Well, it was lovely to see you again, Simon. Thank you so much for having me.

You're welcome. It was lovely. Loved the loved the conversation. Yeah. So listeners, link— there's a link into— in the show notes to Sunny's last episode and her book, which is great. Book is all about experiences of other Korean adoptees and adopted parents.

All adoptees, domestic and international.

Oh yeah, sorry.

Parents and adoptive parents. So many perspectives.

All sides of the constellation. Fantastic. Thanks, Sunny.

Okay, thanks, Simon.

Thanks for listening. See you soon.

Bye-bye.