Viscerally Whole With Elizabeth Barbour

Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Elizabeth, Elizabeth Barber. Looking forward to our conversation today.

Thanks. Me too, Simon. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, you're very welcome. Very welcome. So what, to what extent does this, this word healing, to what extent does that resonate with you?

Elizabeth? Um, very much so. You know, I've been thinking about it, knowing that you and I were going to have this conversation. And to me, healing feels like a return to wholeness. And it's about, um, finding lost parts of ourselves and reintegrating them. And, you know, when I think about my own personal healing journey, It started probably in high school. You know, I knew, I knew that something was off and I didn't feel whole and complete and I didn't know what it was. And I've really been thinking a lot about this. Um, you know, I worked as a peer helper in high school and then when I went to college, I was in a similar role, sort of guiding and mentoring other students. Went on and got my master's in counseling. But I think initially my healing was—I didn't understand at the time—but it was about giving to others. Let me help you. Oh, I'm fine over here. I don't have any issues. And you know, and then as you get into that work, you go, "Oh, wait a minute! I've got to shine the light." On my stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Because you've, you've done a— you, you co— you're a coach now, right? And you coach some adoptees and you coach a lot of people that are non-adoptees. Um, yes. Do you find a lot of separation? If, if, if, if healing is a, a return to wholeness, do you find a lot of separation In the broader population?

Yes, absolutely. I, I think that we very early on in our lives, um, experience separation, whether it's, you know, adoptee trauma, uh, or a family of origin, you know, challenges, uh, health issues, you know, whatever, conflict in the family. And then of course, there's always generational trauma, which I think maybe we'll get into a little bit later. But yeah, I think separation is very much a part of the human experience. And maybe that's why we're here.

What are we separating from?

Hmm, good question. I think we're separating from self. We're separating from source. Uh, we're separating from community.

Do you use the word, uh, self and source interchangeably?

No, no, no. To, to me, a self is sort of our soul or our spirit, and source I think of as God, force, energy, uh, you know, our creator. the universal energy.

Okay. And how do you differentiate between those 2? Between, uh, spirit and, and create an energy, universal energy.

And self. Yeah. Um, well, I, I think about it in terms of, you know, I think we all come here. I think we incarnate. to have an experience of the divine and have our own unique expression of the divine. And so to me, it's like my, myself or my soul is like my, my personal blueprint, my personal journey. Like, what did I— oh, you know, what did I sign up to? What's the curriculum I signed up for in Earth school? You know, might be one way to think about it.

Yeah. So the, the self is, is the personal, but the source is the universal?

Yes.

And, and what do you think you signed up for?

I joke with my best friend, we say we signed up for a triple PhD here. Um, that's a really great question. What did I sign up for? I think I signed up to learn about love, to, to learn about love of self, love of others, love of spirit. Um, you know, to me, that's like the universal thread. That, that's what binds us all together. You know, who cares what we look like or our backgrounds or our political beliefs or whatever, but Love is that common connection.

Yeah. And, um, and these seem pretty far-out topics for, for adoptees, don't they? Like, in these spaces, do you, you know, like, when in these spaces that you're, you're learn— you— I'm— that you're learning these About this stuff? Are you coming across many adoptees?

Uh, some, uh, but, but good point. Um, it's not necessarily a common conversation among adoptees, although I'm finding it more and more. I think, um, I think my experience as both an adoptee and an adoptive mom Has informed some of this for me.

Yeah. So how?

So when you and I talked before, I was telling you about an experience I had with a family constellations facilitator. It's probably been 20 years ago. And I was fairly newly in reunion with my biological family. And I was having a challenge between my birth mom and my adoptive mom and sort of my, my loyalties to them and my relationship with each of them. And I was trying to parse through it all. And the facilitator said to me, as he was working with my constellation, he said, Elizabeth, you have 4 parents. And I just kind of looked at him. I was like, what? No, I don't. I have 2. He said, no, no, no, you have 4 parents. You have your adoptive mom, you have your adoptive dad, you have your biological mom, you have your biological dad. And it was the first time that someone spoke the truth to me, like capital T, like in a way that my— it was like, I remember exactly the room where it was, all the people that were there. And I remember having this very visceral experience of like this missing piece came in and it just kind of went like, it's like, oh, that's the truth. So now that I'm raising a daughter, she's now 13, who we adopted at birth, we are raising her Knowing that she has four parents, she has her dad and I, her adopted parents, and she has her two biological parents. And to me, that is letting her know about all the love that is available to her, even though she might not have relationships with everybody, and it might look different. But it's about to me the love and how I'm able to express that to her is. You know, we are multifaceted beings, and she is coming from nurture and coming from nature, and it's all part of who she is. It's all part of her path. And then, of course, you know, she gets to have her own experience as a little human on this planet. But that's the foundation that she's coming from. Does that make sense?

Yeah. But you talked about a visceral A visceral sense, visceral feeling.

Yes.

Of, of what? Of love? Of, of a new insight? Of, of, I mean, you mentioned of, of truth. Mm-hmm. What, what was it that you've, what was it that you've felt in the moment? What was the emotional reaction? So what, what was the sensation? What was the emotional reaction? How was it? What was it evidence of or proof of?

Or I think it was relief. I think it was relief. It was clarity. It was like, oh, I'm not crazy. I mean, I think I spent so much of my life as an adoptee And I've talked to other adoptees about this too, feeling— and I don't really like that word crazy, but, um, feeling other, feeling alien, feeling displaced, feeling like I didn't belong. And there was something about that new knowledge or new information or new understanding That it was kind of like, you know, you take the Venn diagram and it's taking the 2 circles. And it was like, instead of being 2 disparate circles, they finally overlapped, you know, and I was in that middle space, like, oh, I'm from here and I'm from there. So it wasn't an either or, it was suddenly a both and.

Yeah. So it was the end of a denial, then? In some, in some respects, you'd felt torn. You'd felt torn between— well, you felt torn between 2, 2 sets. Yes. The 2 different sets had different weightings for you or something. I mean, was that it?

I mean— Well, and, you know, it's, it's interesting listening to your question because it's hard to find the language around this, right? Oh yeah. Yeah. And I think that is what is so unique about the whole adoption experience. Um, and certainly the adoptee experience, but defining the feelings and emotions and experiences are, it's really complex. Um, but to your, to your question though, um, end of a denial. I don't think I was aware that I was in denial. No.

It's a relief in a— I mean, the thing that came to me was it's a relief when I, I was relieved when I read The Primal Wound.

Yes.

So, okay, this explains it, right?

Yes.

Okay, so I haven't consciously denied it, you know, like we talk a lot about that. Oh, I've denied You know, like I've denied it. I've, I've denied it. I've stuffed the feelings. I've run away from it. And like, I do it. Yes. Maybe. Uh, uh, uh, I've, I've been denied. I've squashed it down so far. Well, it wasn't a conscious decision. It was like, we're, um, it's a relief. Yeah. It's the, the truth is a relief. Oh, okay. Well, no wonder I've been, no wonder it's been complicated.

Yeah.

Because I haven't just seen it. I've got 4 parents. Yeah, there's a relief with that. There's no denial. You wouldn't— I wasn't, oh, I, I only have 2. I only have 2 parents. It wasn't like that. It didn't sound like it was like that. It was like a, a, a, um, a confusion was lifted. You got some clarity. Hey, and that's why I'm, I'm, I'm really mining this because Uh, I think sometimes I have a tendency on the podcast, in the absence of these really micro moments, transformation moments, I can go a bit macro and, and, and big, big. And it, and it's all a little bit too easy. It's, it's not, I, you know, I'm mining this because that's what I think.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, I don't— people say that, not in adoption, but people outside the world say, um, outside the adoption world say time is the biggest healer. Well, it— I, I don't think so at all. Time isn't a healer. It's what happens in that time. And, and what is it? What is it that happens in that time is, um, we, we have an insight, we have a moment of clarity, we have a visceral— you described it as a visceral moment. Um, uh, uh, uh, the, uh, a visceral moment of clarity.

Yes. Well, and I'd like to add another word to that too. It was clarity and it was expansion. It was an expansion of my understanding of myself and my experience on this planet. And so it was like the, you know, it's sort of like being in, I don't know, you're in a house, right? And you're in one room, you're in the living room. And then suddenly you start walking around the house and you realize, oh, there's a kitchen and there's a dining room and there's, you know, 3 bedrooms and there's a basement. And then suddenly it's like, oh, wow, this is— I thought I was just in this one space in this room. But really, I'm in this much larger experience. So it feels, it feels like it was an expansion too.

Um, have you heard the word Kensho experience?

No, tell me about that.

So there was an astronaut, and I don't— I think he's called Edgar something, American guy, Hoff Hoffman, Brofman. He, he had a Kensho experience, a moment of expansion. I think he— I think it's Japanese, right? Um, so he was, uh, he, he was orbiting the Earth, looking down on Earth, and he had this Kensho experience, which is a kind of a, a, an opening, an enlargement, you know, the, the, the sense of spaciousness came, boom, you know, like to him in a, in a moment, and it changed his life. And he, he, he moved. He'd gone from a very alpha male, the very alpha male world of, uh, fighter pilots to NASA.

Mm-hmm.

Because most of the, like the, the best, well, the best in the best in the Air Force become, become fighter pilots. The best fighter pilots become test pilots. Best test pilots become astronauts. It, it's a well-worn kind of track.

Mhm.

So it's, it's very, it's very, uh, alpha male. It's very Type A personality. It's very brainy. It's very left brain. It's very logic. It's very chilled. It's very ice, ice cold. And it's the ultimate logic, right? And then bang, he had this experience, this Kensho experience, where, um, his whole world changed, looking, looking, looking down back on the Earth. And he became a, a consciousness guy, and he, he, he completely left behind the, um, yeah, the, the career ladder. I mean, I guess, where, where do you go after you've been an astronaut, Right. You train other astronauts, you know, right? And where, where, where is there to go?

Yeah. That's great.

So it sounded like you had a Kensho. What I think, I don't know if I hope, I'm hoping I'm pronouncing that correctly. Mm-hmm.

It, it sounds like it. Yeah. And I think it, um, you know, it's really interesting. We're, we're now living in reunion with our daughters. Biological dad for the last 4 years. And, you know, I've had a lot of people comment like, oh, you're so, you're so generous and you're so, you know, open to be willing to do that, almost as though I should receive accolades or praise for that. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is me being a good parent, a good steward of my daughter's experience, and knowing that 2 parents isn't enough because she comes from 4. And so I want to encourage that and give her this expansive experience of knowing not only the 2 people who are loving her and raising her, but also where she comes from, her background, her history, her ancestry. you know, the people that she looks like and has, you know, similar tastes. I mean, she started eating sushi when she was 3. And I was like, wow, that's really unusual for a 3-year-old kid to like sushi because she wanted mine. She said, Mommy, I want your sushi. Come to find out, she's part Japanese. I mean, I don't know, maybe she just likes sushi. But really, like, she has a great-great-grandfather who was a fisherman. in Japan. That was his profession. So I gotta think that there's some genetic ties to that.

I've heard that from, uh, similar things from, uh, particularly from Asian, Asian adoptees, uh, when they go back to South Korea or somewhere, um, and the food they take to the food. You know, it's not a logic thing, it's not a memory thing, it's, uh, lived experience, right, thing. Um, so I, I want to tie the 2 things together, right? The space stuff that I was talking about and the alien, right? Feeling alien. Mm-hmm. So It is, is feeling— if we're, if we're all separating as, as human beings, if every, if every human being is separating just to a greater or lesser extent from themselves, is feeling like an alien just a turbocharged version of that separation?

Hmm, that's a great question. You know, my gut response is, is yes. And I don't know what it's like to be a non-adopted person. So I would have to ask my non-adopted friends and say, do you ever feel like an alien? Yeah, you know, it's not typically language that other people use in my experience, but I could be wrong.

Do, do you feel like an alien anymore?

No, no, no. And that's, you know, I, I'm 54 now. I was 29 when I met my biological family, and, um, I met my birth mom, my birth dad, and 11 brothers and sisters. So it's been an incredible experience. And, you know, we've been living in reunion for 25 years now. And so I've had 25 years of getting back in my body and learning my family history. And again, It's not learning it new. It's expanding my family history because my family history is also my adoption, my adoptive lineage, you know, my adoptive mom and my adoptive dad. I, I claim their lineage as my own too. But now I also have my biological lineage from my birth mom and my birth dad and their parents and their grandparents. And so now it's all part of it. You know, I sort of joke that instead of a family tree, you know, I have a family forest. And so I don't, I don't feel alien anymore. I, I feel like I finally, I feel like I've finally landed.

Yeah. So I, I love the metaphor, um, the family forest. I love that. That's cool. Um, to, to what extent do you, to what extent do you think, uh, reunion is a Uh, requirement for not feeling an alien anymore?

For me, I think it was everything. Um, when I think about the biggest days of my life Um, you know, when my daughter was born, when I married my husband, um, the biggest, most important day of all was the day that I met my biological mother. It was April 13th, 1999. I'll never forget it. Um, so for me, I do think it was a requirement. Is it for everybody? I don't know. I can't speak to that. Um, but that primal wound, you know, as you referenced, you know, Nancy Barriere's book, um, it's, it's real. It's very real.

And, and what is it in respect of the things that you've been talking about in terms of Um, finding lost parts, reintegration, love, all that sort of stuff. What, what, what, what do you think the primal wound does?

I think That the separation from basically, you know, our first breath, at least for me it was, I did not see my biological mother. She was drugged. And I came into the world and she never saw me.

Wow.

And that's not certainly not everybody's experience, you know.

A lot of— it is common. Well, common, I don't know. I don't— it, it does— it's not— yeah, it, it's not rare. I don't think it's rare.

Right. Yes. Well, and I think that was probably adoption practices decades ago. I think it's a little different now. Like our, our daughter's biological mother was in the hospital with her for 2 days and held her and fed her and got to spend time with her before she chose to place her for adoption. So, um, yeah, I do think things are different now. But so I think to that question about separation, um, you know, we know that, that babies, when they come into the world, they are connected to the mother's voice and her smell and her touch, you know, because they've spent 9 months in the womb and in her body and sharing cells and blood. So that, that trauma of just that total separation, you know, how can you not carry that with you? And again, as you know, we talked earlier, it's not conscious. It's very subconscious. It's very cellular memory and But it's always there. And, you know, and not all adoptees want to or are interested in doing the work to heal it. And that's okay. You know, there's no right or wrong about that. But I know for me, my personal experience, I think I always knew there was something wrong, different, missing, whatever. And I knew I needed to— To heal it. Yeah.

So, because, um, you've referred to— you said we, we are self or soul or spirit. Do you think that that's, you know, what, what impact or What impact, if any, does the primal wound have on that?

Um, well, if I look at it in terms of what we were talking about earlier, sort of, uh, you know, what's my curriculum here on Earth? Um, I would think the primal wound then was a catalyst. For, you know, that separation was a catalyst for me to be on this journey of self-discovery, reflection, inquiry, search for wholeness, all of that.

A catalyst. So you— is that something that you're thankful for, grateful for? I mean, you talked about the, you know, the, the lesson and stuff, so that would seem to me that you, you'd be grateful for a catalyst.

You would think. It's a, uh, I would say it's a love-hate relationship. I mean, you know, because I— that— and that's such a great question.

It's not all hate then, I guess.

No. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, not at all. No, I mean, I see the gift. I see the gift in it. Absolutely. 100%. I see the gift in it. And, you know, I just came back a couple months ago. I did my first ever vacation with 3 of my siblings on my birth mom's side. And all 4 of us kids plus partners and our children all went on vacation together. It was the first time we've done that in 25 years. And I came home from that trip and I cried for 2 days because I was so sad that I hadn't grown up with them. And I was pissed that that opportunity had been denied to me. And yet, you know, so that in here, you know, I'm in my 50s and I've been reading for 25 years. I've done so much. therapy and personal work and whatever, and still the layers are being revealed. Still the emotions are coming up, you know, they're being revealed to be healed. Um, so I feel like it's this lifelong journey. Um, yeah, did that answer your question?

Yeah, I, I think so. Um, to me, the, the, the primal wound is basically the— is the steel in the concrete of the separate self.

Hmm, say that again. Their primal wound—

The primal wound is the steel. Mhm. In the reinforced concrete. Yes. Of the separate self. So if, if you're not adopted you have a separate self.

That's right.

Right. Uh, and it's, and it's made of concrete. But if you're, um, if you're adopted, it's reinforced concrete. Um, but the, but the, uh, that sounds like bad news, but the good news Is the separate self isn't who we are, right? Uh, well, have you heard that acronym for separate self? To me sounds like ego and sounds like, um, the acronym, uh, for that, uh, Earth Guide Only. Have you heard that?

No, I haven't. I love it.

Earth Guide Only. So we think our, we, we think that we are our separate self. And, and the primal wound, it is— it has made that thought a belief, a reinforce. So it takes quite a big— it takes quite a big, uh, demolition crane, right? Like, what do they have? What do they call those, the balls on a demolition crane?

Yeah, the wrecking— the wrecking ball.

The wrecking ball, right? Yeah. It takes a really big wrecking ball to demolish the reinforced concrete. Do you use that term in the US, reinforced concrete? Does that make any sense?

Yes. Yeah, that makes sense.

It's not just a UK thing. So it, and, but it sounds like to me that what happened to you with the, I don't know, um, with the, the 4 parents Then was that— did, did that— no, maybe not actually. I don't know. Were there other moments that have blown your healing wide open? What are the big— are the big healing moments where, where the separate— because the separate self dissolves, I guess? Mhm.

Um, I think one of the biggest moments, it was about a 20-minute period, uh, about 6 months after I had found my biological family, and I brought my biological mom and my biological dad together with me, and we spent 20 minutes just the 3 of us. And I stood between the 2 of them with my arm linking hers on the right and my arm linking his on the left, and we were a unit for 20 minutes. The only time in my life that's ever happened. Um, and that, again, it was a very visceral experience of feeling anchored, connected, belonging. You know, it was like, here I was. And, and I mean, if you think about that, like, if there's non-adopted persons who are listening to this, You know, they often, not always, but often spend their lifetime being surrounded by the 2 people who created them and brought them into this world. And like, that's just a normal thing. Of course, that's what everybody does. And yet, as an adopted person, you know, who lives thousands of miles away from my biological family, I had 20 minutes in my whole life to be with them. Just profound. It was really profound.

How would you, how would you define love then in this, in this sense? Because she talks about your Curriculum being one of the things that you said first about your curriculum was to learn about love.

I love how you bring all these things back together, Simon.

Well, you said universal thread, right? So I'm just—

Threads, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's great. You're weaving the threads together. It's wonderful. Um, I— that is such a great question because in that moment, like, I can close my eyes and be in that moment with the two of them. And there was so much love. And what it looked like was forgiveness and acceptance and apology and pain and grief and joy and relief at being reconnected. I mean, it was all of the things. It was like love was like this bigger umbrella. But then in that, so much happened in those 20 minutes with me thanking both of my parents and saying, thank you for giving me life. You know, just the very basic, like, thank you for giving me life. Thank you for being the portal through which for me to come into this and onto this planet. But then they exchanged words with one another. You know, she said to him, you know, I was so angry at you for so many years. But when I called you to tell you about Elizabeth, you welcomed her with open arms. And that healed me because you accepted her, which means in some level you accepted me too. And then he said to her, I'm so sorry that I wasn't able to be there for you all those years ago. And I'm so grateful that you brought Elizabeth into my life and into our lives because we're all enriched by this. I mean, it was just— I wish I had a recording of it, really. But I remember a lot of it. It was a long time ago.

Yeah. So I'm gonna have to break in with a bit of my story here because, uh, otherwise—

Yes, please do.

Otherwise, if, if somebody, if people are listening and, and, uh, there's no hope of reunion on the cards, right? They're gonna think, well, I can't heal if I can't reunite. That was, that was—

That's right.

That was the question behind my— that was the question behind, um, or the thought behind a question I asked about 10 minutes ago. So have I told you about reading the letter from my birth mother? Have I told you about that?

Tell me again.

Okay, so the coming out of the fog moment happens when I'm 40, and it's to do with finding out the teddy bears from my birth mother.

That's right. Okay.

And the teddy bear is an effing consolation prize from somebody that didn't love me enough to keep me. Yeah. Right. That's, that's, those are the words that came out of my mouth. They were challenged by the person that I was talking to, and I saw them as incorrect. I'd never Thought those thoughts, said those words. As soon as she came out, as soon as they came out of my mouth, they were challenged by Sarah, the woman I was talking to, and I saw that the that those thoughts were incorrect. Okay. Eight years later, I get my adoption file, and in there there's a letter from my birth mother. To the social worker. Sorry, listeners, if you've heard this before. There's a letter from her to the social worker four days after she handed me over, placed me right February 1967, and it's all about the teddy bear. And and as I read, I'm getting the goosebumps now, right?

Yeah, I can see them.

Not great on a podcast, but great on video. Sorry, listeners. Um, I, I, I, I, I, I feel the desperation of her predicament.

Yes.

I feel her love for me.

Yes.

I realize as the tears stream down my face that the teddy bear was not an effing consolation prize. It was a symbol of her love for me. Yes. And I feel one with her. And I feel, as I now think about it, as I know what I know now, I, I now feel at one with the world. Right? I'm not just at one with her, I'm at one with the world. So, um, I'm, I'm in that, uh, what you called, uh, source. You talked about source, um, God force, universal energy, universality. That's the moment that I hit. That's the space that I touch.

Mm-hmm.

That's the feeling that I have. And that's, you know, you, you, you used the word visceral a couple of times. That's the visceral feeling that I have in that moment.

Yes.

Uh, and, and then, um, you know, I, like a year or so later, I find out that, um, that, that she, she died. She died early in the early 2000s. So there was no re— there was no reunion.

Right.

And yet, There was that visceral healing moment, and there's, there have been hundreds of healing moments.

Hmm.

But that's the one that is, uh, the, the most easy to explain and the most easily grasped and the most transferable, right? Other stuff that I've shared with people, just like, so, so you, you, you don't need to, I, I, in my opinion, right? Or, I know my experience, my experience. I didn't need to reunite to, um, for, for this separate, for, for me to see through the separate sense of me to universal God force or whatever you wanna call it. Yes. 'Cause I didn't need to, I didn't need to do that. And I've spoken to plenty of other adoptees who have touched that space and, uh, and, uh, reunion isn't a, a prerequisite for it. And neither is a letter from the birth mother. That's not a prerequisite.

Right.

Prerequisite for it either. What I think is a prerequisite for it is being open.

Yes. Yes. I, I'm so glad you just shared your story because yes, that is such a, a good reminder for everybody listening. You know, each of these journeys Of those of us who are adoptees are so unique and healing comes in so many different forms, so many different ways.

And I had a, a, a, a mind-blowing, uh, somatic experiencing moment a couple of weeks ago.

Oh yeah. What happened?

Well, I was, I was sat on a chair. with the somatic experiencer on a chair 8 foot away from me, whatever. Um, and I wasn't getting, I wasn't getting into like a, I wasn't getting into the zone. I wasn't feeling anything, right? So she gave me, um, she gave me, uh, a, a chair without any legs.

Mm-hmm.

Right. So if you imagine, because a standard chair's got some legs and then it's got a base and then it's got a back on it, right? So imagine, and this, this one was cushioned, right? So imagine a, a cushioned chair that is literally just the base and the back. You're sitting on the floor. And I was, so my body was supported. I had my legs out in front of me, right?

Okay.

So I felt supported. And then we did, we did some, she asked me a couple of questions or whatever about the support. And then I was sharing some stuff with her and, and suddenly this massive grief came my kind of came my way.

Mm-hmm.

And I didn't push it away. I just let it envelop me. And, and then I started crying. And then the, uh, Blanche, she's called the somatic experiencer lady. She, um, she said, she said, do you want a, do you want a rug? You look a bit cold. And I just— tears just burst open.

Uh-huh.

Uh, you know, went to— the tears came, they went from a trickle to a flood about the, the gentleness and that she could— yeah, the, the, the, that that little act just blew it away. But it, it was instead of trying to push the grief away, I was welcoming it in. And when it— when it— and it merged with me.

Hmm.

And it became Me.

Hmm.

And a couple of weeks later, I was trying to tell somebody about that on the podcast. Uh, yeah, I was trying, and I was trying to get into the space. Uh, I was trying to bring up the grief. Right. And I couldn't do it. I couldn't get, I couldn't get to the place. I can't get to the place now. I can tell you about it in, in what seems as quite a visceral kind of fashion, but I'm nowhere near that place. So it's, you talked about reintegrating.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you talked about healing as, um, what did you say? Uh, Finding lost parts and reintegration. Yes. Yeah. So reintegrating instead of fighting the feelings. And how many times have we heard this? It doesn't work. I did a po— did a little post on Facebook the other week, you know, uh, we never win in a fight with our feelings. We never win. Hmm.

Right.

The feelings always Always win.

Well, and, you know, there's this saying about grief that, you know, it doesn't go away. You just learn how to carry it differently. And that's sort of what I was thinking of as you were describing that experience. It was like, oh, it suddenly became integrated in you. And so you're, you're carrying it differently. Your relationship with it is different. It's still there. It's part of you.

Yeah. So as you were talking about the different emotions when you're holding locked arms with your, um, bio mom and dad for 20 minutes, yeah, it was like the image that came to my mind was, um, a, a light. I like going through a prism and bursting out into love, love going into prison. So you've got white light one way and just the rainbow of colors coming the other way. Like, I'm not a Pink Floyd fan, but there's the Pink Floyd album, what is it, Dark Side of the Moon, that, that cover is, it's light one way and you've— so, so it's all love. Basically what we're saying is all All, all feelings are love, even grief. So universal being is all of us and all emotions, uh, and it's like an all-inclusive, right? It's like an all-inclusive holiday, right? All, all, all, all emotions are welcome. Rather than, um, uh, yeah, rather than a, a, a gated community where grief isn't allowed in.

Right. I just, I need to sit with that imagery for a minute, Simon, because, um, you just touched a core in me. I, I know you're, I know your listeners can't see this, but I, I'm Like, really emotional with that visual. That's really powerful because that is— you described it beautifully. It's like you were there and you saw it. But that iconic Pink Floyd album cover, you're so right. Because, right, it's like— it's the— you didn't use this word, but it's the kaleidoscope, right? It's the kaleidoscope of all the colors and the emotions and the experiences. You got the goosebumps again.

Do you know what I was going to say? What? I was gonna say it, it's the Pink Floyd, uh, cover, or it's a kaleidoscope. Oh, okay.

We're, we're, we're speaking the same language. We're on the same page.

I couldn't remember the word for it. Sorry, I interrupted.

Yeah, no, no, no, no. But, but yeah, it is. And, um, and, and, and healing to, to your point, like whether or not reunion takes place or not. Healing and healing moments are about that kaleidoscope experience. And again, it goes back to expansion, right, that we talked about. Like, you know, it's, it's, it's the light coming into the prism, and then suddenly you see the rainbow, right? It's this massive expansion of what we can perceive, right? Because the, the white light has all the different colors in it. But then it's through the lens of the prism that then we're able to see them distinctly. Yeah. So again, it's perception. It's kind of like you were talking about the astronaut.

Yes. And, and my favorite guy, I haven't plugged him for a while, so I'll plug him again. Rupert Spira. He describes, uh, love as the felt sense of, of oneness. It's, it's a lack of separation. It's, it, it's non-duality. It's, uh, not two.

I love that.

That, and that's within us. So most of us go outside looking for A felt sense of oneness, a felt sense of belonging, but it's in us. That guy, that astronaut, had it, had that expression, that experience on his own. I had my experience on my own. I was sitting in a spare bedroom that I used to use as an office. before I use this one, um, 9 years ago. And I remember it clear as a day. I can't remember which day it is, but I can remember the expression, you know, reading that letter. So I had the felt sense of oneness.

Mm-hmm.

No, universal on my own. And, and the mistake that we, you know, we, I think that we make as adoptees and a lot of other people, I'm sure you've You've met a lot of clients who are people pleasers, right? So we go out, yeah, we go out in the world, you know, we go out in the world looking, looking for, for love and then looking for people to, um, accept us. We look outside for—

Yes.

For a feeling. Yeah. There was a— have you come across this adoptee guy? He's not with us anymore. He died in— died, I don't know, last 10 years ago. A guy called Sidney Banks.

Have you heard of him?

No. Um, so he had an enlightenment experience and like the astronaut did, just in different circumstances. And he said, he used to say, uh, I always tell people to look inside, but they never do. Hmm.

What a different world we would live in if we all took time to do that. If that was normalized, if that was valued in our society.

If what was valued?

The looking inside.

Oh, looking inside.

Yeah, the looking inside instead of always seeking it externally.

Yeah, we're conditioned to look at our—

Yes.

Side. The, um, the distraction economy is— I heard somebody talk about it, like $50 billion or something like that. The distraction, you know, buy this product, watch this movie.

Mm-hmm.

Have this holiday.

Eat this food.

Eat this food.

Mm-hmm.

That's the funniest one, right? That's the, the funniest one for me is that in— so we get newspaper on the Saturday and the Sunday, and in the run-up to Christmas— sorry, listeners, we're mentioning Christmas and it's August 15th. In the run-up to Christmas, it's all the chefs and all the self, you know, cookery experts telling us how to, how to have the turkey, get perfect turkey. The wine experts telling you which wine goes with which stuff. You've got all the recipes. What do you do with the rest of the turkey? You've got all the tips on getting— it just goes mental. It just goes mental. And it's not just newspapers, all the whole TV goes mad as well with TV chefs. Because we don't, obviously we don't have Thanksgiving, not obviously, but we don't have Thanksgiving. So turkey, you have turkey at Thanksgiving, we have turkey at We have turkey on Christmas Day, but we do have cranberry, which is from you guys having— anyway, but then, so they all go. It's all about eat, drink, eat, drink, eat, drink, eat, drink. And then, then you've just got Christmas out of the way. Diet, exercise, diet, detox.

Yes.

Strip out the carb. And, and the same organizations, the same newspapers, the same TV channels. They do the same thing every year. Mm-hmm. They tell people to get to eat, eat, eat and drink too much. And then they tell them how to lose the weight that they've, that they've encouraged them to, to put on. And that's the conditioning. That's part of our conditioning. And, um, The, the ad people and the social media people are very persuasive. They are.

Well, and that's the, that's the work then of healing, right? Is unhooking from the conditioning, you know, allowing ourselves to be deconditioned and say, I'm not going to participate in that distraction economy. And, you know, we're talking about a specific, you know, I love that example of the holiday, but that's true in, in every aspect of our life. Right? It's, it's about not hooking in to how we should be or how we should show up or what we should say or what we should look like or how we should behave or whatever, and getting true to ourselves. And Our identity and our wholeness and our being and our personal way of expression in the world and being true to that, that core. I think about the steel you talked about earlier. We were talking about primal wound, just bringing this back. And you said it's the steel and the reinforced concrete. And You know, steel is really strong. Steel is really resilient. Um, and I think we all have that capability and capacity within us. You know, we've just gotta access it.

So what stops us accessing it?

All the social media gurus telling us to eat and drink and be merry. No. What prevents us from accessing it? Fear, I think. Fear of, you know, what might I find? Am I, am I going to like this? Is it going to scare me? Can I handle it? Um, you know, I mean, we've been talking about some really heavy emotions, you know, grief and loss and abandonment and trauma and, you know, all of those things. And it's really hard to shine a light on those things and to, and to sit, uh, in those experiences for a while. Not that you need to stay and wallow, and they don't need to be part of your identity, but even to dip into them for a period, like you were describing being on the legless chair on the floor. And, you know, you dipping into that and engaging with the grief in that way. That's really brave work for you to do, Simon. Not, not everybody wants to do that, or can do that, or is willing to do that. But by you, you know, creating a safe container for yourself with a You know, a qualified therapist who could help you, and being willing to do the work. You've had this big shift and another level of healing. So we've got to be willing to do it. We got to overcome the fears.

I think that social media is a world where everything is validated or chopped down in rhythm— ribbon— ribbons. But in the, like, validation as a, is a double-edged sword, right?

Yes.

So what, what do you, I'm trying to, um, I'm trying to think of a question here. Where, where do you see validation? And, or do, do you see validation on social media in adoptee circles and trauma circles? Do you, what do you see that? Do you, do you, do you spend any time in those places?

Um, I'm actually just returning to that world. Now, now that I'm writing my next book, which is about adoption reunions. Um, but I have not spent a lot of time in those spaces.

There's an awful lot of validation.

Yeah.

That, that, that's not what coaches do, is it? No. I think that validation has sometimes kept me stuck.

Sure.

And I don't think I'm the only one. Right.

Well, it's, um, I don't know if I'm using this phrase properly, but it's trauma bonding, right? It's, you know, well, you had this wound and you had this experience and so did I. And so let's, let's commiserate instead of, okay, you had this wound and so did I. And so how are we going to heal from it? You know, and and I think at different times of our lives, you know, you're not always ready to do the work. Yeah, and you may not have the supports in place to do the work, or the resources, or the. People around you, you know. I mean, I think there are so many factors that go into it. You know, like if I think about my own experience, you know, I was raised by an adoptive mom who grew up in an orphanage. She suffered tremendous abuse as a child. And so the way that she raised me Um, you know, as lovingly as she possibly could. And, you know, she wanted to do things so very differently from her own experience. Um, but she was so wounded. And so then now I'm looking at being a parent and going, okay, so how am I raising my daughter differently than how I grew up? Um, I had my own wounding, but it was less traumatic than hers. Um, I don't know. I'm not sure I'm making sense, but there's so much to unpack with all of this, Simon. I feel like we could talk for, you know, days.

That'd be a long podcast. I wonder what the longest ever podcast is. Yeah, I don't know. So what, uh, is there something that I've not asked you about that you— obviously, um, as always, listeners, Elizabeth mentioned her book and I got a link. I put a link in the show notes to what she's doing and I would encourage you to check that out. Is there anything else that you would like to share that I've not asked you about?

Um, probably the only other thing, you know, I mentioned that I'm writing a book about, uh, living in reunion for, uh, people impacted by adoption, and I'm still interviewing people. So if, if any of your listeners, um, are or know people who are living in reunion and would like to be interviewed and share their story, um, whether it's been a positive reunion or a challenging reunion, um, or some combination of all of the above, which most of them are, um, I, I would love to talk with people. And so they can contact me through my website. And, um, yeah, that would be great because I'm always looking for stories. I think we heal— a big part of our healing— and Simon, I just want to thank you for having me on today. Um, I love that the focus of your podcast isn't like telling me this story, well, I met them here and there and whatever. Your focus is on the healing, but the stories that come from talking about the healing, that's how we heal with one another, right? Like, we hear other people's stories and we go, oh, yeah, I had that experience, or, oh, that's making me think about this. I'm going to delve into that more, or, oh, I'm going to take that piece and I'm going to talk with my family or my friends or my therapist or my coach about it. And so you're doing such great work in the world. And, uh, thank you for this conversation. It's been really rich.

Thank you. And thank you for being part of it. You know, yeah, it wouldn't be anything without the guests. Yeah. Thank you, listeners. Thank you, Elizabeth. And we'll speak to you again very soon. Take care.

Thank you. Bye.