Walking With Humility With Kristin Orphan

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined once again by Kristin, Kristin Orphan. Looking forward to our conversation today, Kristin.

Thank you.

Yeah, so, uh, regular listeners will have spotted a bit of a trend here. We've got some, uh, some past guests back, right, to see what's going on. I was listening to, uh, the interview that we did with, uh, Kristin back like coming up 4 years ago, so that's how time flies, right? Um, And it was all about this, uh, the family wellbeing house. And so I'm going to link to that in the, in the show notes. But today, uh, Kristin and I are going to take a completely different approach. But I wouldn't— if, if you're an adoptive parent, I'd encourage you to check out that link to what Kristin was talking about last time, because this is a great analogy, it's a great metaphor, it's a great tool, this family wellbeing home, to get communication going, right? We're all— we're always told that we need to attune to the needs of our kids. Well, how can we— how can we attune to them? By, uh, through communication. And that's a big part of what Kristin's, um, organization does. So, um, is there anything else? Is there anything that sparks off the back of that, Kristin, that you want to share before we get in?

Sure. I, I think What you're— I would encourage folks to take a look at the building blocks. And then also something since we've met, Simon, is that we have on-demand courses that really walk through all of the details of how— we're big on how and not just what. So yes, at the foundation of our house is communication, and we try to get really practical by calling it Speak up, listen, and cooperate. And the only thing I would add for this conversation is that we really believe every single person in the family can learn these skills. And some of us, based on how we were raised, we're not entirely sure how to teach our kids or how to even model it and learn it for ourselves. So that's okay. We all have a place where we're starting and we can learn. We can do— we can learn today and start practicing today. So just check out finallyhome.net to learn a little bit more about that. We want to be able to help you take steps. And like I said, every single person in the family from the youngest member all the way up can begin to learn. The other thing besides communication that we continue to emphasize, but it absolutely ties into communication, is that there's room for every single person in the family to be an individual a unique person and to be able to connect in, in relationship. It's those 2 things that allow us to grow and thrive, which I think is what we're going to talk about today. It's a recognition that I am a part of something, and that's important. That's how we were designed, to be a part of something. And I can also be a unique person that's different from other people. And so There that we just simply call it, uh, be somebody and belong. And I believe that it's a lifelong journey to discover what that truly, what that balance really means. And it's, yeah. So that's a really great conversation also for every single person in the family.

Okay, great. And just, um, in case you don't know, um, listeners, uh, Kristin is an adoptive— foster adoptive mum, I think, is the way that you referred to yourself last time. And obviously she leads this organisation called Finally Home, which does some great work with not only adoptive parents but foster parents too, and is getting into all sorts of exciting things, as we see, especially the technology and using videos. And this on-demand course is really exciting because who's got time? We want to access stuff. when we want to access stuff. So, um, one of the— one of Kristen's and Finding Home's programs is called Revive and Thrive. So she's clearly like, we're at what as one on at least the need for this focusing on thriving. What, what does it mean to you? What does thriving mean to you, Kristen?

Wow, that, that is a great question. It, to me, it's not a destination. It is a process. It's a way of living that allows us— in our programs, we talk about bouncing back. That's how we describe resilience, bouncing back from hard times. Uh, the assumption is we will have hard times. and challenges. And that, of course, that comes in all different, uh, scales for, uh, especially families like ours, the kind of hard times that we've been through and will go through. So thriving really is a way of living that continually acknowledges that, yes, we are an individual person and we have a lot of different roles. And we're— I'm talking about, you know, adoptive parenting or foster kinship. That's one of our roles, um, and we have a lot of different roles, and we are unique people. And then we also, as I alluded to, have a lot of connections with other people. Constantly addressing those things and learning how to speak up for ourselves and listen to others and cooperate That allows us to learn how to navigate. So I guess just in a nutshell, Simon, it's this learning and, you know, skills and a way of living that allows us, even when we're going through the darkest valleys, to say, you know, I am thriving. And I guess redefining it not as That means I'm not going through hard things. I'm not struggling, you know, that, that kind of thing. I think that, that is a myth that I had to, uh, that I probably, um, took a long time to finally realize.

Yeah. Uh, I interviewed a, a fellow adoptee ages ago on this subject, and when I asked her the question, she said, well, I'm not sure I am thriving. So it was very much, uh, she was thinking— her thinking was slightly different. Her definition was different. And, uh, people say to me, well, you're very positive, Simon. Well, I have tough stuff too. I'm constantly learning. You talked about lifelong, um, you talk about lifelong balance. I used to— I— the first time I heard that lifelong learning thing, to me Uh, that word, I heard it 30 years ago and I thought, well, I didn't really enjoy school that much. So, you know, I, I thought I was done with that stuff. But, you know, if I think about now what's really relevant to me, we're doing this on, we're doing this on Thursday, on a Thursday, uh, listeners. And, and I've had huge shifts on Monday. Some little stuff on Tuesday and another big thing on Wednesday, right? So big new insights, me connecting dots, seeing where, um, it, it— yeah, seeing, seeing trauma responses that I've in myself I've not appreciated before.

Hmm.

So it's becoming conscious of what was previously unconscious, realizing it was a strange one. And it had 2 things last week, right? Which was with call centers, dealing with call centers, you know, on the, uh, on, uh, on these were on Zoom. Uh, one was on Zoom, one was on the phone. And I, I realized that my, uh, frustration and anger around there was not in alignment with where I want to be. So it's not saying all in the garden is rosy. It's not acknowledging new learnings. New learnings often on the back of tough stuff. I think that we learn more— unfortunately, we learn more in the tough stuff than we do in the, in the good times.

Absolutely. I, it's almost always true that friction, uh, that we experience is usually the catalyst for change. And the thing about what you're describing, I think the learning is some, sometimes we think, well, thriving is not being, uh, you know, not having stuff come up or to, to use a, you know, Often overly used word trigger. It's an effective word because it's accurate. We're triggered into something, but it's a response, right? A reaction that we have, and that is going to happen. And I think what you're describing is the learning and the growth is recognizing it quicker. I hope that as we get older, we recognize things quicker. That ultimately for me is growth. We are going to be, you know, we're gonna have reactions. And rather than thinking that the ultimate destination of thriving means we are just, you know, all of the things that we picture— success and calm and joy and all of those things— and they do come there in this life. I believe throughout our lives we are going to have, you know, we're going to hit speed bumps or mountains. And part of how I know that I'm growing is that I recognize it faster and I'm willing to acknowledge it and deal with it, whatever the situation requires. I'm willing to deal with it and I have skills to deal with it. Or I have a skill to say, wow, I mean, this was really big and shocking, and I'm gonna go ask for help quicker. That might be a really important part of my definition of thriving.

Yeah. Um, we, you touched on this last time when you talked about scaffolding for the building. And, and that was, uh, going, going outside. So scaffolding sits outside a building. You go outside the building, go outside your family unit for support and third-party assistance and help. And knowing to— yeah, doing that earlier in the piece. And whenever I get onto this subject around this, Because I am a guy that does go external quicker than a lot of guys. I think about, I think about a lot of friends here that have run their own businesses, right? So going outside here, we're talking about, I guess we're talking about emotional support or psychological assistance, a therapist, somebody, a mentor, somebody that we can talk to. But if we talk about going outside from a business point of view, because a lot of my friends run their own businesses, there's one in particular of my friends. I don't see a lot of him actually, different ways of life now, I think. He used to take the mickey out of me for going outside. And, and I, I, I couldn't— I, he's— I, I had no answer for him on that. I just let it. There was— he wasn't gonna— he wasn't gonna change his mind. Um, but there's, there's, there's something within us, I guess pride for want of a better word. That stops us going, can stop us going outside for help. How do you see that with, um, how do you see that personally? And, and also, how do you see that in terms of the people that you work with, the families that you support with Finally Home?

Well, personally, I mean, I, I get it because I was raised, I was raised in a pastor's home and we were very close as a family. And in those days, you know, you did keep pretty private because it was not necessarily acceptable to talk about your problems outside of the family. Um, there was a a standard or a reputation, um, and it wasn't necessarily, um, safe or acceptable for a pastor's family to have problems. Okay. And I— my parents are incredible and, um, sincere, you know. My dad in particular, just a genuine, soft-hearted guy. So it wasn't that he pretended not to, but there was absolutely a message that we kept that in the family. So the idea of— I wasn't— so in other words, whether it was overtly or something that I just took on because I just observed, um, I absolutely did not go into marriage, um, having any personal experience for counseling or asking or telling other people, you know, even a friend. It's like you kept your— and like I said, it's funny how you pick things up without, um, really like having any memory of being told, like, we don't tell people our problems. We don't, you know, we, we figure it out in, in the family. But somehow I picked that message up loud and clear. And of course, my own internal wiring. You mentioned pride and those sorts of things. So I definitely— and you know what, Simon, I even remember as a young person looking back now, friends telling me, you know, we always tell you our problems, but you never tell us yours. And it's like I didn't even realize that. And this is even just as a teenager. Like, I listened, but I was very tight-lipped. Now, in my own mind, falsely, I'm thinking, well, I don't have any problems. I mean, which is— I just wasn't, you know, we, we kept to ourselves in those things, even though I wanted to be loving to my friends. But, you know, that, that keeps you from having good connections. when you're not willing to be vulnerable. So my point about asking for outside help, even because I do appreciate that you said therapists, counselors, but you also said mentors and friends. So whenever I talk about asking for outside help, I mean, there's a whole spectrum of things. We don't—

we—

there's a time for therapy and counseling and asking for people who just have more experience on a— in a particular domain, you know, like you said, a business colleague or whatever. So Personally, I definitely had to learn that. And the gift of, you know, my husband was that he didn't have those— like, he had grown up in a family that had struggled a lot, and he didn't have the luxury of realizing, you know, of pretending at least that they didn't need help. And that was a gift to me, because it took a while for this young mind to learn. But this idea that you've got to talk to people, like, he would even— I remember when we were first Married, he would just say, "Please, like talk talk to somebody about what you're struggling with me about." You know now, of course, we want to have good. We want to choose wisely. But I just thought really, like you you would want me. You would allow you know that would be okay because it wasn't okay in my you know my young mind. But that just freedom of going yeah, I mean I'm secure. I think you need people to talk to those sorts of things. So that was the beginning of even. Being willing when we were struggling in our young marriage to go to a counselor, and I just remember the first time sitting in a counselor's office like with my arms folded thinking like I'm telling my stuff like that that's not you know so is a journey. So to answer your question, and then of course becoming a foster to adoptive like now like all the pride starts getting stripped away, and you just it's like like you said. Things sometimes have to get hard, and and for me bad enough that it was like I'm just like raise the white flag, and then became more and more. So there was incredible freedom. I think our world has evolved and changed in terms of people's willingness. So in terms of to ask for outside help, it's a message we send over and over and over. I Think people are faster to receive that. I think our culture has changed to that being more and more and more acceptable. So I don't know. I'm sure that there are still people who struggle with it. But your question in terms of families that I work with, first starting to talk to, to us because we've been there. And there's no judgment in terms— I try to say that right away. I see it coming more easily, but we just had— I just had a conversation with some colleagues yesterday about folks who are coming to us for some support with Revive and Thrive. Part of what we try to counsel people in— and by the way, that is everything from family coaching to mental health scholarships. And a whole lot of resources in between. But people are coming to us. We were talking about this idea that there's still some resistance, like, because part of what we counsel is like, who are your support people? And let's start listing them. And let you know, and there's still sometimes people saying like, I'll talk to you about this, but I don't want— You know, I don't want to talk to anybody in my circle. And, and so it, it does exist, but I think culturally it— I mean, I, I don't know what, what you've observed, Simon, but I think we've almost swung to a completely other place. Like, the one thing I would say is we don't want to get— we want to constantly be growing in our own skills so that we also can believe that we can address things. So we don't wanna outsource everything. We, we want to continue to grow and say, you know, I, I've got, I, I'm gonna give this a try. I'm gonna use some of my skills. I'm gonna do those things and then check in with, you know, outside folks. So, yeah.

And listening to this podcast in, in a way is doing your own work because you're looking to pick up on insights. I'm, I'm the whole purpose of this podcast is to interview guests about their wisdom and, and hold that up in case it helps anybody else, right?

Mm-hmm.

That, that's what we're, that's what we're doing. And, uh, and it's a niche market, right? It's a niche market. Most adoptive parents, most adoptees, most adoptees I know aren't listening. to this podcast. They're listening to perhaps more story-based podcasts where there's validation, maybe where they're switching off from our own story. Maybe they're seeing validation in other people's stories. Kind of focusing on learning is less popular than focusing on stories, right? So entertainment, big blockbuster movies sell far more than instructional content, right? It's that you're in a niche by listening to this podcast, listeners, right? You're already doing it. I like to say this because, well, how do I do this? How do I? Well, you're already doing it. You're tuning in. You're tuning in. You're hopefully seeing, you're hopefully picking up some nuggets of, of, of wisdom. And we're doing— that's what we've been doing for 560-odd episodes, and that's what we've got in the, in the plan in terms of a book that we're working on at the moment. So, so yeah, um, I, I love the balance of the internal and the external and the breadth at which we can do our own work. So We can listen to podcasts when we're in the car, when we're walking the dog, when we're doing the ironing. That's me, right? I like to somehow brag about the fact that I do some ironing in the house. I don't do anything else, listeners, right? But we can multitask. And, you know, in the UK, I don't know whether they have this, whether you have this in the States or not, but in the UK, it's only women that are supposed to be able to multitask. Men, A British man can't do it, apparently. I don't know whether that's— is that—

Well, if you're ironing and listening and learning, then clearly you are breaking, breaking through that lie.

Thank you. I am. Um, so I want to circle back to resilience because you talked about, um, bouncing back after tough times. And you also talked about recognizing things quicker. So how, how do you see those 2 things together?

Yeah, they're very much aligned because when we recognize it quicker, first of all, we're not going as deep into the, the struggle. Um, I do find that to be the case personally. I mean, that is that when we recognize it faster, we don't end up going into the whole. And, and we're talking personally because I— there, there is a difference. Obviously, our kids' struggles are going to come at all different depths, you know, and we don't always see those things coming. Um, but if we're talking about us personally recognizing things, then the resilience— we know we're growing in resilience when we recognize something quicker. Like you said last week, you, you were, um, or, or, you know, You recognized a response in you that didn't align with the circumstance. So immediately you connected it with a trauma response or whatever it was that it was brought up. You're like, okay, well, that is— well, I mean, just your recognition of that is huge growth. And then you can— of course, we have a choice when we recognize it. What will we do with it? Will we bury it? Will we go and use an escape? Will we, you know, push it down or whatever? Or will we say, oh, I recognize it, and now I'm gonna— what, what am I gonna do? I don't know. I'm gonna call somebody and say, I just want to be accountable to this. This is what, what's happening. Will I journal about it? Will I take a walk? Will I do a little bit of processing? I mean, in terms of recognizing it and how it connects to resilience is That next step is, what are my go-tos? What are my healthy go-to skills and tools to do what I need to do to get out of the, you know, to turn, to turn around? Well, you mentioned anger. So will I feed into that? Or will I do something? Because I realize this really isn't about anger in this situation. So what will I do? And so we all need to have Things we do, um, that are healthy tools and skills to address it so that we can move on. And that means that it is, um, we, we're bouncing back quicker. That, that's what bouncing back to me is.

Okay. So what if I was to, to sum up what you said in the first half of that answer? Before awareness, we don't have a choice. So awareness brings choice. And it's that, it's that old line by Jung, uh, until we make the subconscious conscious, it will rule our life and we will call it fate. Something along those lines, right? You know, um, but that Uh, you know, awareness. Otherwise, we're, you know, we're blind without awareness. We're blind. We don't, we, we don't even know the choice exists. Um, how do you see all that? Or do you— does that— you're nodding. Yeah.

Can you get some more flesh on that and your take on that? Sure, sure. I agree with you. Well, let— I'm just going to use your example of, of getting angry about a situation. And, and if you are not aware, then it's just, this is a terrible situation I'm in.

I don't—

the service is horrible. It's all about the other person, right? Or the other, other— that whatever is happening that's making me feel this way, it's all about that. As opposed to, ooh, I've, I've recognized this before. I've realized that when I react this way internally, or I say these things, the ultimate reason are whatever these experiences, this hurt, this that reminds my mind, my body, my everything of this other trap I fall in, whatever language you want to use. Well, if you have done the work, you have done the acknowledgment that it isn't about this present situation. This is a pattern, and here's where it's coming from. So that's that acknowledgement. And then when you are aware of it, now you can, you know, with kids, we say stop, do something to calm yourself down so you can think. Because what we know is these reactions and these responses, they are somewhat, especially at first, involuntary. We feel it in our bodies. We, we react in our emotions. So what we tell everybody is timeout. Um, and when we timeout, stop, calm ourselves down, we can begin to think. And, and you know, because you've had all these conversations and you've done the work, that we can put our brains back online. So we say, you know, with people, it's like when our, you know, computer goes offline and starts spinning and spinning and spinning and everything is a blur and whatever. Well, We need to calm ourselves down so we can think. Thinking brings it to awareness. That's, I believe, what you're asking. Now we stop and think and we say, this is what I am feeling. What do I want? I— and let me start thinking through and understanding. So it brings it to awareness, which is what you're saying. Now we can bring it to the conscious and we can do something about it. And this is where we decide, do I have the tools and skills to do something about this anger, this reaction, this pain? Can I think through and start to connect, move from lie to truth about myself if that's the problem? You know, I'm powerless, I'm this, I'm that, all the lies. Can I do that or do I need help? And is help a friend? Just remind me, you know, just this— I'm just going into this old pattern of thinking. Or is help something, you know, more significant or professional? And that's just— and that's moving into— and it's that processing that we do. I believe thriving is— resilience is— we can most Um, most of the time start to move faster through that. That's the whole idea of growth and thriving.

Yeah. What, what helps with that awareness piece for you?

Well, I mean, for me, years of talking it through and getting guidance, you know, if we're going to get really specific, Yes, we raising our 2 kids who had, you know, I have 4 kids and 2 came from extreme trauma experiences and neglect. Raising them was hard and painful and scary at times. And yes, a lot of it came from their own pain. But for me, realizing what that was Bringing up in me, whether it was— wow, being out of control was really, really terrifying for me. And there were reasons that had nothing to do with my kids. And even though it was that those circumstances were real and hard and scary and needed their own set of tools and skills. I also had to look at myself. Boy, this is bringing out some really scary stuff, and I have an opportunity to either go deeper into my need for control, which was not going to be good for anybody, or I can— at the same time I'm trying to get tools and skills to raise my children well and to keep my marriage strong, I have to deal with what's going on inside of me because I have an opportunity to. You know, and probably without some of those extreme circumstances, I wouldn't have had to face those things. But I—it was a gift, and it was hard. So doing the work, sitting down and talking, yes, how you know with counselors or you know then therapists, and really like trying to get tools and skills and understanding for my kids, and start starting to get super honest about what this was doing inside of me. And some of the possible reasons why I really, really wanted control, and that this was absolutely like my worst nightmare to be out of control and to have to have other people coming into my home to help. I mean, just you know the sheer terror and loss of control all of that represented. And so it was a lot of work over a lot of years. So. I still have some of the remnants of that, and what we're talking about right now is I just recognize it, and I'm not willing to pretend it's about the situation or it's about the other person's problem. It's like, no, that just, you know, that just— I, I'm trying to gain control, and the reason this situation is freaking me out is because I'm feeling like I don't have control, I recognize it a lot faster. But I— the answer to your question is a lot of years of conversation and recognition, uh, a lot of prayer and self-reflection of what is going on inside of me. And will I, at the same time I'm getting help for all of the external circumstances, will I be honest and allow the Lord to use this in my heart to actually strengthen me? You talked about it's usually pain that pushes us to growth. This was the ultimate for me, um, the ultimate pain that over time I started to realize it was an opportunity to grow and heal and allow these things to actually not just help us to survive the really turbulent times as a family, but to become a better friend. become a friend who was willing to share and be vulnerable, um, become the kind of wife that was willing to say, you know, instead of, you know, you made me really mad when you did this, but that hurt my feelings. Um, so to allow other relationships, not just the parenting, uh, for me to actually become a, a healthier, more humble person is what— and it, and it takes a long time, and I'm still in it.

Yeah, the, uh, humility is much, uh, yeah, much ignored, or, or not, not ignored, but It's— I think it's underestimated. Humility is underestimated. You, you talked about a gift. You mentioned the word gift a couple of minutes ago, and I was doing a training for some adoptive parents last week, um, some Brit adoptive parents, and, uh, I, I suggested this idea of, uh, our trauma as a gift to understand our kids' trauma. What do you make of that?

Well, it's usually the unexpected gift that keeps on giving. Uh, it, you know, what I think—

Is it unexpected? Is it even unwanted? Right? Isn't it? We see it as a curse, don't we?

It would— we would rather pretend all the problems lie in our kids. If we're just super, super honest, it's like, oh, you know, life is hard because my kids are struggling and they have this diagnosis or this is going on or that. Again, for me, recognizing, oh man, it's just so much more comfortable to talk about their trauma. And to— but it is a gift because one is it gives us an opportunity to heal and to have compassion. And I do want to emphasize what you said about humility. Humility is the key that unlocks the door of being willing to ask for help because ultimately at the root of being unwilling willing to ask for help is this sense of, you know, yes, pride, but most of the time— and I've heard it said this way, you know, the opposite— pride and, and what— whether you want to call it shame, um, insecurity, they're, they're two sides of the same coin. Because pride usually is a mask for I shouldn't need to ask for help. And so the gift of humility says, I am human, I absolutely need help. Allowing other people to speak into my life makes my relationships more intimate. That's the gift of belonging. It's a gift to other people. But back to your question about trauma, it is because you know what? It, it makes us humble and compassionate. It makes us willing to say, we're all in this together. I'm going— I have to deal with my trauma. I mean, you know, it's not a gift if we don't deal with it. If we, if we just stay stuck in our patterns and our pain, I mean, that is not going to be a gift to our children. But we talk about parents having 2 jobs to lead and model. I mean, modeling a willingness to get help and to say I need help is a gift. And being willing to admit, because here's the thing about kids, they get that message loud and clear too about them being the only one with the problem. That is not, I mean, that is not a recipe for healing when they become the, you know, the technical term is prescribed patient of the family, where they are the only ones with a problem. I mean, that When we can walk alongside of our kids in an appropriate way, and as they get older to say, you know, part of what we teach families is talk together, share your heart. So it's not projecting your problems or even sharing your deepest, darkest to unload on your kids, but it's just like, you know what, rather than maybe at a certain point sharing your experience, more sharing your feelings about it. You know, I've, I felt insecure. I felt like, uh, nobody understands. I felt isolated and, and alone. And starting to share some of those experiences that begin to unlock, like, and, and here's how I, I work on it, you know, here's how I am working on it, it begins to help us to invite our children into this idea that Everybody has to learn how to deal with their stuff, and everybody has it. That's you know it's a lonely place when we believe in and tell ourselves the lies, or our kids are telling ourselves I'm the only one with problems, and I must be broken, and I am a problem, and nobody else. deals with this stuff.

Yeah. Before I came into the adoption world doing the podcast and stuff like that, 4 and a half years ago, I spent a lot of time in, in prime element— what you call elementary schools. And I shared with— it was a— we talked about aspirations, we talked about happiness, we talked about confidence, we talked about the problem, where the problem is, where the problem thinking is, right?

Right.

Uh, which is inside us, and where the bully's problem thinking is, which is inside them, right? And I shared, I, I shared how I'd felt and what I wish I'd known when I was around their age, when I got bullying. And this was out of, you know, I was doing a session, a workshop for maybe 40 minutes. I would talk about the, the bullying stuff for maybe 2 minutes of it, but it had the kids' attention. You could have heard a pin drop. And in terms of what they told me at the end, what they shared at the end, it was like rocket fuel for their learning, was sharing how I'd felt when I'd been through bullying around their age.

And I—

but, but I could do that because I was just a guy that you know, that was coming in to do the workshop. I wasn't their parent, you know. I didn't have any— I didn't have any skin in the— skin in the game. I had no— there was no downside to that. I, I did it accidentally, you know, once. It came out once and it really worked, so I used it again. And I'm wondering if you can talk into that. You used a beautiful phrase, right? Sharing your heart, I think. Is, is what I wrote down anyway. I felt that I could do that because I was an outsider. Can you talk into that stuff when clearly as a, as a parent you're very much an insider? It's, it's your kid, you're his or her mum or dad.

Sure. So we, as I said, we talk about parents having 2 really important jobs. And that's to be a leader, which a leader makes rules, sticks together with other parents, and follows through with what they say. They're leading the family. And this other side that can be really hard for families like ours because we're constantly feeling like we've got to set boundaries, boundaries, and we do because of the safety and all of those things. We have to find ways to also be connecting or be a model, we say. And being a model is how we spend time talking with our kids. just kind of, we call it side by side, rather than this above leadership role, but side by side talking about just maybe sometimes it could just be about your own day, you know, and, and maybe, you know what, this happened to me today. And I felt kind of, it surprised me because all of a sudden I realized I was just feeling nervous. So that's what we mean by sharing your heart. So again, not getting into like, oh, when I was a kid, this really horrible thing happened to me. I mean, there may be a time and place like When our kids are adults, where we want to just really share, but want to be really appropriate. But sharing your heart is talking about what you like, what you did, Simon, and just sharing your feelings, like when this came up. So it's, it's really saying, this is how I feel sometimes, not asking your child, oh, you know, just turn around and say, what do you— how do you feel? Do you ever feel that way too? In these situations, we just— this side by side, maybe taking a walk, we talk about that, like this side by side, or with little kids talking when you're playing that. And so through the different life stages, there's different ways that we can effectively do that. Teenagers in a car side by side, so you're not eyeball to eyeball, that tends to be more effective. And it's really, it is sharing, it's sharing what is going on and being intentional. And sometimes you, especially if you realize kids going through something hard and you want to hear from them, it's being a good listener. It's being willing to set aside your hat of leadership and guiding and advice giving and really listening, being willing to listen to things that make us uncomfortable. You know, and I'll just use a really practical example. Our kid comes home and says, you know, I hate my math teacher. And of course, the leader in us says, you know, we need to be— you need to be respectful. That person is an authority over you. We don't say I hate. We don't this. We don't that, you know. You, you probably are, are mad because you didn't do your homework. We set aside all the leadership side for the moment and just, wow, you know, you, you're really angry at your math teacher. And then you just sit in the awkward silence. I mean, more times than not, they're gonna start, well, yeah. They made me really mad today. Okay, well, something, uh, they did in class today made you mad? Yeah, they embarrassed me. And now you're starting to get— and, and it works. It's being willing to sit in the discomfort of the things that in your mind are violating your values. You want to know. And what we say to parents is, you know, sitting there and just until you get the entire message is the way that you can get a window into what's really going on. When we're able to do that, balance out the leadership and the modeling, we will allow— you know, that's how we set those things up, Simon, that we talk and share about our heart. We're willing to listen to them about what's really going on and set aside, like, our need to correct everything. the way they're saying it. And then the other piece is that we are encouraging them. You talked about aspirations and dreams. That's actually part of what we teach, too. It's like, encourage them, you know, identify something that you're recognizing in them and say, how, how do you want to develop that? How do you want to have more practice at that? What do you see yourself, you know, doing with that skill? Or here's something I, I recognize In you. So it's, it's really those 3 things. It's encouraging them, it's talking with them by sharing your own heart, and it's being a good listener even when it is really uncomfortable.

Cool.

Is—

I think we're coming up on time here. Is there anything that, that I've not asked you about that, that's on your, on your mind here? Uh, or maybe just sat in your intuition in terms of what thriving is about.

Oh, I think the first thing that comes back to mind is just how we began. And that's the idea that every single person in the family matters. Every single person has their own individual, uh, needs, gifts, experiences, way of looking at the world. And we have this opportunity to also connect. So my encouragement is, well, first of all, as parents, we have to remember that we're also a unique individual. We matter. Life doesn't just become all about our kids when we become parents. It's not good for them. It's not good for us and for our trauma or our hurts or our experiences to become a gift, not only to us, but to the people that we love and care about, we do need to pay attention to ourselves as individuals. And I think that's just— that's, that's how we begin to thrive. And again, this idea that thriving is not a destination that someday Life is just going to get better, easier, all those things. Um, it's really about, will we walk with humility? Um, will we take care of ourselves? Will we get help sooner rather than later? Um, that's really about that. That's what it means to thrive in life.

Fantastic. Thanks, Kristen. Thanks, listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye-bye.