What Do You Need Right Now? With Rebecca Harvin

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Doctors Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Rebecca, Rebecca Harvin. I almost said Marvin then, but no, it's definitely Harvin. Um, looking forward to our conversation today, Rebecca.

Me too, thanks for having me.

You're welcome. So Rebecca and I spoke, uh, last week and we got on like a house on fire. And at one point in the conversation, she was telling me about a little bit about the story And, uh, and, uh, it was a question that came to you, uh, and the, the question was, how do we thrive?

Yeah, it was like we've been asking the wrong question. We've been asking, how do we survive this? And I was wondering kind of out loud if we'd been asking the wrong question and if we could ask a different question, which was, how do we thrive here? Yeah.

So how long ago did that question come to you? Do you remember?

Yep. That happened on New Year's Eve of 2018.

Right. That's a pretty good memory there.

Well, I did just tell you that I went to school to study history, so dates are, dates are kind of my thing.

Ah, okay. Okay, so what, what have you learned in those, well, coming up 5, uh, 7 years from, from that? What, what have you learned about the, uh, about the answers to that, to that question?

Um, gosh, I think 3 different things. Can I do that? Can I answer 3 different ways? Okay, of course. So the first thing that I have learned in a 7-year, like, 30,000-view is that I don't always remember to ask that question. There are definitely seasons where we slip back into the, how do we survive this, instead of asking, how do we thrive here? The second thing that I learned how to do over the course of the last 7 years was, um, to fall madly in love with reality. And what I mean by that is not necessarily always being madly in love with the things that were happening in life, but this, but this reckless commitment to being aware of reality and not telling a story about reality. Like, I started becoming aware of the stories that I was telling myself that shaped my perspective of this scenario. And so I started peeling that back layer by layer. And then the third thing that I've learned over the last 7 years is to start asking myself, what do I need right now? Given that nothing might change about the landscape around me, what do I need right now in order to thrive here where my feet are and not wait for some ambiguous day off in the future?

Yeah. So listeners, I perhaps should have given you a bit of context. So, Rebecca is a mum of 6, 4 by adoption and 2 by her kids, and she also runs Haven Retreats, which is what it sounds like. It's a retreat, but it's a retreat for where kids and parents go together when they're burnt out and— or on the edge of burning out, I don't know. And that— you founded that on the back of one of those questions. From that question, yeah. What do I really need? What do I need right, right now? And the, the thing that you needed right now was a retreat, a, a space away, a, a sacred space, a peace, a space of peace, a retreat. Yeah, one of those things. So, um, falling madly in love with reality So you've got this juxtaposition there between reality and story. So how does that— what does that mean? Like, is it about a view being slightly off?

Like, oh, okay.

Is it trauma glasses? Is it?

Well, we all tell ourselves stories all the time, right? Human beings are people of story. And so we tell ourselves stories to make sense of the world around us. If something were to happen, like, um, you didn't get invited to the party on Friday night, that— and you find out that everybody's having a party. Instead of just saying, I didn't get invited to the party, fact, you say, it's probably because— and then we fill in that gap with something that never honestly feels good to our bodies or our brains, right? We fill in that gap with a story of rejection. And so I started learning how to peel that, to come back to, I didn't get invited to the party on Friday night, in that example. In a much bigger, broader context, there's— can I tell you a story right now?

Of course.

Okay, so I was at one of our retreats and, um, somebody came up to me and they were, they were praying over my husband and I. And in the middle of the prayer they said, um, you're going to receive, um, divine clarity this week. And I think that they thought that they were talking to both of us or whatever. It doesn't, it doesn't really matter. But I was leaving for Christian Alliance for Orphans conference, CAFO. And I kind of held that. Okay, maybe some divine clarity is coming in that I have a rocky relationship with my father. I've— I have always had a rocky relationship with my father. And that, that was at the surface during this season of life. So I am in a workshop, and it's being led by Dr. Curt Thompson, who is a renowned psychiatrist. And he's talking about suffering and like the neurodivergent path of healing or something like that. I'm completely botching the title. Suffering and the Neuroplasticity of Hope is the title of this workshop. And I'm sitting kind of in the front row. And he's talking, and he says, he's talking about suffering. And he says the 3 different ways that we suffer, we suffer because of things that happen to us, we suffer because of things that we do or say that, that causes suffering, and then we suffer on our way towards healing, right. And the second one was like things that we do or say, like stories that we tell ourselves that increases our suffering. And as he's walking on the stage, he says, my father will never love me in the way that I need him to is a story that you tell yourself that increases your suffering. And he makes direct eye contact with me. And he says, do you hear me? Do you understand what I'm saying to you? And I shake my head. And I say, no, I don't understand this. And he stops what he's doing. There's 300 people in this room. He stops what he's doing. He looks me dead in my eyes. And he says, your father— my father will never love me in the way that I need him to is a story that you are telling yourself that is increasing your suffering. And I was like, well, I think that that was the moment of divine clarity. But I don't like know what it is, right? And as I sat there thinking about it, because, because I did not experience my father's love in that season of life, nor do I experience it in this season of life. And so it was like, well, what is this? What is the question? What is the story It's the will never. That sentence right there increases my suffering because I apply it to my future. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

So it is currently accurate that my father does not love me in a way that I need him to. And I can— that's falling, that's falling in love with reality, understanding that, and knowing that that's a part of my life right now. But to add will never, Is applying that to the future, and it leaves me without hope for that relationship. Yeah.

Can I— I wanted to raise something that happened for, for me over the weekend, something that I saw over the weekend, which I think is similar, similar kind of a thing. So it's the difference between Uh, the sensation of panic.

Mhm.

And the thought of panic.

Mhm.

So we, we can have an— I had an embodied experience of panic, I guess what some people might call a panic attack.

Sure.

When I was in Orlando, few weeks ago and I thought I'd lost my car keys.

Okay.

I thought, yeah, and how was I going to get home when I flew back to Manchester, right? That— there was the panic that was going on within my body, and then there was the thoughts that were going through my head.

Mhm.

And they're 2 completely different things.

Mm-hmm.

2 different things. They're not, they aren't the same. You could, you, you could split those down to 2.

One, you really can. You can separate it and you can tend to your body, right? You can tend in that moment to, my body is dysregulated, I'm having a panic, I need to breathe, right? Like, how can I care for my body right now? I can, I can ground my feet on the floor and I can breathe. And I can regulate my nervous system. The thoughts that are creating panic, they're all stories that our brain is making up. I'm not going to have my keys, I'm not gonna be able to get home, I'm not going to be able to do X, Y, or Z. And you can come back to— first of all, you have to regulate your nervous system, you have to breathe here in a panic attack. And, and Lord knows. I have, I have experienced panic attacks in the middle of all of— in the middle of this too, right? So just step one is I've got to breathe. I've got to ground myself. I'm here. And you bring yourself all the way back into reality. So for me, that looks like going, I'm 43. It looks like going, looking around the room and saying, I can see, uh, if you're in the parking lot, like, I can see a red car. I see pavement. I see this. And then I remind myself that there's not a lion that's chasing me. Right? I just bring myself— I am safe. My body is safe. Because all of that is just messages of, of I'm not safe, right? And then your brain is making up all of these supporting evidence. It's just creating supporting evidence to that.

It's snowballing.

It's snowballing. And so you get your, you get your nervous system regulated. And then you go, okay, what do I know to be true? I'm 43. I'm standing here. I am fully safe. Okay, what am I afraid of? I'm afraid that my keys are not going to be here. Okay, like, they're, you know, like, and you just kind of start working your way into it. Um, is definitely— it's a tool that I use all the time.

So the thought I had on the back of that thought Was that's what there's this distinction. There's a distinction between trauma and beliefs about trauma.

Mm-hmm.

So trauma isn't something we can put into words.

Right.

We can describe it.

Right.

We can describe it. We can tell a story about it.

Mm-hmm.

But it's not a story, and. It, it, it, it's— trauma isn't a story, it's a felt sensation. And the, the thought that came up, the thought that prompted that was, uh, pre-verbal trauma doesn't have words.

Right.

So if pre-trauma, if pre-verbal trauma doesn't have words, then anything I say about Preverbal trauma must be a fabrication. It must be a belief. It must be a story. Mm-hmm. So, like, and this came as clear. I read a I read a post on Facebook, and I just thought that's a belief about story. That's a belief about trauma. That description of trauma. And, and it was similar to your thing with your dad, like the, the never, like, yes, I will never, right?

Yes.

This, this thing, this, this post on Facebook was a belief about trauma. But trauma, you can't put trauma into words. You can't put— especially you can't put pre-verbal trauma into words, because I had no words. I had no words when my— I had no words. when my, um, my mother placed me. You know, I could say my mother placed me, or I could say my mother relinquished me, couldn't I? And there would be, there would be a big difference around that, right? But, but our, our, uh, we've got, we've got, we're on dogs 3 and 4, right?

Um, okay.

But I, but out of our 4 dogs, the first one I think was the one that cried the most on the night, you know, the first night away from her mom is at 8 weeks old, and she's, she's spending that night with us and she's crying, right?

Yeah.

She's crying. So she hasn't— but she hasn't got words either. It's— for her, it's a feeling. Pre-trauma is a feeling. It's, it's not, it's not something with words. So it's— the whole thing is fabricated. The whole thing is We're fabricating it. We fabricated it. And as you said, uh, before we started, uh, recording, uh, our, our beliefs make sense to us. Our habits make sense to us. The way we vote makes sense to us.

Yep.

Right.

And everybody's story makes sense to them.

Their story makes sense to them. Our story makes sense to us.

Yep.

Our beliefs about trauma make sense to us. Our trauma history makes sense to us.

Yes.

Yes. And, but it's not words. Trauma isn't words. It's sensations.

Yeah. I've heard of trauma as being like— It is. It's a Very embodied experience. You're absolutely correct about that. Like, it lives. My friend and I, when we talk about certain aspects of, of traumas that we've experienced in life, and beliefs that have come because of that, we talk about it as living between the very cells of our bodies. Like, that to— that it can cause a lot of confusion moving into healing, moving into more freedom or, or whatever, because these belief patterns live so deeply inside of us that it feels, um, as if it lives in between the cells, right?

In between the cells.

In between the cells is how my friends and my friend and I talk about it.

And the issue is in the tissue is what I've heard.

Yeah, there we go. The body keeps the— also, the body keeps the score.

The body keeps the score. And have you seen Bessel van der Kolk dancing?

No. Should I?

Well, maybe not. I don't know. But his body is Is keeping the score, and his body is keeping the score of how many pints of beer he drinks a night. Yeah, I love beer. Yeah, I love beer. Yeah, so does Bessel. Yeah, so does Bessel. Yeah, or maybe he loves food. I don't know, but something's keeping his body is keeping the score of something, and that's to do with his intake or yeah, his intake or his lack of exercise. One of those two things.

Our bodies, our bodies do keep, like, in, in that kind of sense, right? Like, our bodies, um, gosh.

Yeah.

I had a, I had a couple medical procedures within the last 2 months. And, um, the first, they're, they're very similar in nature. Like, the first one We were hoping would be enough that we didn't need the second one, right? But the first one said, oh, there's actually more problems than we know and we have to Google the problems. So we're definitely going to need the second procedure.

And slight concern there at the time.

Well, you know, I'm not one to get all up into— I don't WebMD myself. Right? Like, I kind of follow a doctor's leading until the doctor, like, can actually diagnose something.

But the doctor's using Google too. That's the challenge.

The doctor actually did use Google too. The doctor was like, I had to Google this. I've never seen, I've never seen how this report came back. But, um, the first procedure, I respond, I like, I started having a panic attack on the way to the procedure. Um, and my husband was driving the car. No, I was driving the car. That was fun. I was driving the car and I couldn't Breathe. I was completely beside myself because I had forgot my medicine at home that that she had prescribed for the procedure, and I was gonna have to do that anyhow. It's a it's a procedure you could do without medicine, but it's gonna be very uncomfortable. And so, and I'm in the office, and Simon, when I tell you, I am like I'm 43. I'm in this room. I see the clouds. I see that like, and I'm like doing this. I'm safe. I'm safe. I'm totally safe. And it took me a long time. In that room to realize that this procedure was triggering trauma from my past. Like, I was— it took me a very long time, but I eventually realized what was happening. And when it did, I was able to use all of the tools that I've acquired over the last couple of years and therapies and different things and able to ground my body and all of that, all of it. Well, then I had to go back for this procedure just a couple days ago. And it was a remarkable difference in my body, right? Because I had attuned to my body the first time, like it was saying all kinds of things that it didn't have words for. I was falling apart in this doctor's office. Like they were like, maybe you need to go home. And I was like, no, just do the procedure. But this time, I was able to like, really what I did, and it was so sweet, was like, I was able to, to to care and to tend to my body on the front end and to say like, you are good and you're worthy of being cared for. And that's what we're doing here. Like, we're just, we're tending to you here. And we just have to ask, like, very sweetly interacting. This is brand new stuff to me. Like, The Body Keeps the Score shows up in real life, but, but tending to our bodies. Nurturing our bodies, being being caring and kind—that is brand new stuff to me. But I got to see the difference. I got to see what it felt like to to tend to. I also put my medicine in my car the night before, so I did not have a panic attack on the way. But anyhow, it's it's very trauma. Trauma does lock itself into our bodies for sure. I have definitely experienced that.

I haven't done this for— I haven't shared this on the podcast for a while. Um, I'm, I'm sure I haven't shared it with you. When I, when I heard The Body Keeps the Score, um, I, I thought about— I thought about— I was swimming the following day, or the same day as I heard about it, and I thought soccer. thought soccer, a soccer analogy, right? So the body keeps the score, and for adoptees, you know, it's trauma scores first.

Mm-hmm.

So it's trauma nil. Sorry, it's trauma 1, adoptees nil. Trauma 1, adoptees nil. But then what healing is about and The, the, uh, the, the conversations around that space and the conversations around healing in general, uh, means that, uh, the final score after 90 minutes is trauma 1, adoptees united 10.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I love that so much, Simon.

Let's make it even better. Adoption Constellation 10. Because otherwise Adoptees United is a little bit, you know, othering, isn't it? For adoptive moms, right? So Adoption Constellation 10.

Is it othering or does it say like adoptees have so much agency and ability to heal and beauty in, in the healing journey that other people get to come alongside. I get to come alongside my kids, but it is my children who actually are going to be the ones that do the work of healing over the course of their lives. And I get a front row seat. I get to be at Adoptees United on the front row waving my like big, big finger, like Fan number one, right? And I have a job to do in that cheering section too. But at the end of their life, it will be my children who get to say, trauma got the first— trauma got the first score. But I have dedicated my life to winning this game. And trauma doesn't actually get the final score here. And that—

so that's going to be the shortest podcast I've ever done. You just nailed it after 30 minutes, right? Now we're going into extra time because that was the perfect point on which to end.

I mean, we can if you want to.

I cut you off, right? Sorry.

You're totally fine, but I see you getting— I see you getting emotional on the screen, and I, I You know, for so long as an adoptive mom, I gripped, I overemphasized my role as the main character in the healing story. And I made it about my ability to do the right things and say the right things and bring my kids to the right therapies and do— I had this I overemphasized my role as the main— I'm not the main character in their healing story. They are the main characters. And, um, and I get to be on the front row seat, and I, I get to watch them play this out. And, and release— for me, it's about releasing the outcome It's about releasing control, and it's about saying, like, how can I— let's use the soccer analogy all the way— how can I set the field up? How can, how can I set the— how can I, how can I create a space that is healing for you? How can I, how can I set your life up in a way that is healing, that you have the ability But to remove somebody's agency kind of a little bit creates a victim, right? Like, says like, you're not able to do this, and so it has to be mine, and I will, I will like dole out healing through the years. But like, you know what I mean? It's a medical model. It's a medical model. But, but But to—

but what if they're not wounded?

To empower— say that again.

What if they're not wounded?

What if they're not wounded? Um, you and I both don't like the term broken, right? Like, you and I both—

Well, I'm using those— I would use those as, um, uh, what's the word, synonyms, right? I would use broken Or, um, broken or wounded. I, I would have those in— I would use those interchangeably. They have— both of them, both of them, uh, to me don't reflect the truth. Neither of those reflects the truth.

Okay, I have a thought about that, but I want to know what you— what reflects the truth.

Well, I'm supposed to be interviewing you, so, you know what I mean? Um, so the, the— let me go back before, before I answer that question. Let me go back, okay, to, to the moment that you realized you were, um, oh, let's say overemphasizing your role.

Oh, sure. Yeah.

Is that the word? Overemphasizing?

Over— Yeah, that's the word that I used.

Is it? Okay. Oh, wow. Right. So What, what was it that helped you see that?

What was it that helped me see that?

Or do you, do you remember? You remembered?

Oh yeah, yes, I remember. Um, I remember.

Um, is this a bit embarrassing? Is that why?

No, it's not embarrassing.

Oh good.

It's not embarrassing. And I'm just trying to like figure out how to package it succinctly. Um, I realized that I was overemphasizing my role because I was, I was just kind of at the complete and utter end of myself.

Oh.

And so I was like, something is not working here. Like, I'm, I'm waking up every day, and I, and by the end of the day, I am completely and utterly depleted. And actually, we've been in this season where I am, I I am so depleted, and nothing that I'm doing is working. And then I asked the question, like, what, what, what is like, I, you know, like, I started, I called a friend, actually. And she helped guide me through some questions. Like, she's a really good external processor with me. And she just kind of asks questions until I get to it. And then I was like, oh, I am holding on so tight to demanding outcomes that I'm not at all. I'm not able anymore to see my children for who they are. I'm not, I'm not able to. I'm putting such a high, high pressure situation on myself. My well, my marriage therapist called it superhuman expectations. of myself. And I, um, I just kind of sat with that for a while and said, okay, what actually— what would not superhuman expectations look like? What does it look like? Then I, you know, I had to do a whole lot of work in codependency, actually, is where I ended up having to go to, was like, oh, I'm, I'm responsible for myself. I'm responsible To a lot of things, and I'm responsible for my children, right? Like their safety and their and their upbringing and everything. But at the end of the day, I'm not responsible for the outcomes. Trying too hard. Trying too hard.

And and but it came the realization came to you in the pit though.

In the pit. In the pit. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. That's interesting, isn't it? Because I often think of realizations coming to me when I'm feeling calm. Oh, you know, so I've heard this stuff. I heard this story about from a mentor. of mine and he was, you know, he's talking about he heard it from somebody else. Did he? Yeah. So they interviewed so many managers across the US. When do you have your best ideas? And they would, it was like in the shower.

In the shower, driving my car.

In the bath. Yeah. Okay. You've heard that one, right? And so the CEO hears this. Here's the story. And, and, and so his question to the, to the facilitator that shared this gem with him is, uh, so how many baths do my staff need to take? How many showers do my staff need to take?

Well, I think that really the question is like, how much margin do we have, right? Because those are the places that create margin in our lives. We're, we're by ourselves in the shower. We're by ourselves in the car in those scenarios where we're just driving. Maybe we're listening to music, maybe we're not. But I drive a ton. And so the car is always where I process. I was driving. I was driving when I was having this conversation with my friend. But at my core, I love to solve a problem. It's one of the things that I love in life is solving problems. So in the pit is actually where you kind of see you're experiencing the problem. And so I will go from that moment to like, okay, something's not working. And I'll— and I will pull myself out and look at it. It's, it's like I kind of visualize, um, like pieces on a table. And I just kind of visualize what's happening. And then I see what needs to be like moved around or, or whatever. So in that particular Um, when I started to understand that I was trying too hard, that I was overemphasizing my role, the— it was really the, like, despondence that I was feeling in, in our family situation that was the key that unlocked it.

Yeah. So what What I'm— lesson I'm taking from this, or the insight I'm having from this, is that I can have insights in the shower, I can have insights in the pit. Mhm. Um, but if I think of probably the most profound insights, they've been in the pit.

Mhm. Well, uh, What do I— how do I want to say this? I, I think that we get to, um, that good can come from anywhere, right? And so if we stop— I'm not a fan of pits in life, like being— I'm not a fan of despondence or all of the negative feelings that come What sort of a living the human are you?

Do what? What sort of a person are you? You mean you're not a fan?

I'm not a fan. I'm not a fan. Some people are very— are you off your head? I'm like, I'm like, get me the heck out of Dodge, you know? But I have learned in the same way that like I've learned that when my body is having a large reaction to something, it's actually trying to speak to me. And so the pit, like those big realizations come in the pit, because life, our body, it's, it's getting really loud right then. And if we stop and, and ask some questions, it has a lot to tell us. And the way that I felt that particular day had a lot to tell me.

Yeah. So you used a key word there, right? For me, a kind of a da da da da da word: realizations, right? And and you you talked about Kurt Thompson, who a few people have mentioned to me. Actually, I did some research, did some digging around, but I couldn't see anything that really wowed me. Maybe I need to take another look at that because. Yeah, um, he used the word neuroplasticity in the name of his talk, and that feels to me— I think the jargon of the moment is gatekept. That, you know, neuroplasticity feels something that we need something like somebody else to help us with, right? Not necessarily Kurt Thompson, but maybe Kurt Thompson, or, or maybe the guy I mentioned, um, before, my mentor I was talking about who told the shower story, a guy called Michael Neill. Neuroplasticity feels like it's It's the domain of a specialist.

Oh, okay.

And, and/or, but— well, I'm not even sure which, right? But neuroplasticity doesn't really mean anything but realizations that, yeah, they are neuroplasticity. Sorry. Yeah. A realization is proof of neuroplasticity. That's— neuroplasticity is a change, a change of— a change in our mind, a change of mind, a change of perspective, a realization, an epiphany, a shift in perspective, a new idea about out of the blue, an insight, an epiphanette, right? It's like an epiphany but a bit smaller. You know, all these words All these words, like you go on a course and you get epiphany envy, right? People are having bigger epiphanies than you.

You're just having epiphanettes. They're just—

But so neuroplasticity is a change of mind. A change of mind is a realization. Um, that's, yeah, that's how I see it. And that, uh, what that The fact that I can, um, the fact that I can, I can give a new name to it gives me a little bit more hope. He talks about the neuroplasticity of hope.

Mm-hmm.

Well, seeing that neuroplasticity is realizations gives me more hope because I'm more hopeful that my beliefs might change. I might get out of my way more of the time. You know, there's just—

Yeah, yeah. And just knowing like our, our brain is not a fixed, um, organ, right? Like our brains can grow and they can change and they can, um, tell different stories, right? Like they can— we can create new neural pathways that instead of doing something the same, reaching for the same thing We can, you know.

Don't realizations sound a little bit, a bit more attainable than changing our neural pathways?

Um, yeah, for sure. That, that sounds, um, I think that I like it in terms of behavior. Like, I like that the realization that leads to behavior change. Yeah.

New thought, new belief, new behavior.

New be— yeah, new behavior, new, new level of, um, freedom, you know, like new, new experience in the world around you and ability to, um, interact with the people around you.

So What are some of the biggest shifts then for you? You've talked— one of them you've talked about is the fact that you realized that you were overemphasizing your part in the game. What other big realizations have created the most Change in your behavior?

One of my kids, one of the, one of the 4 children that we adopted, coming to our house. So, so we were foster parents and, and we ended up adopting from foster care. And this kid, this child felt very safe and loved in their first foster home and blossomed there. Coming to our—

You say thrived instead.

Oh, thrived. Really, truly, like truly. Um, I'm pulling your leg, but But that would actually be the word to describe how they were in their, in their first foster home. And in their— in my kids', like, story of unfolding events, as all 4 of them come together in our home, this, this one is dropped off. And, and you can see the trauma happening as it's As the day unfolds. Like, you could, you could watch them experience the trauma of being left at our, at our home, um, with no verbal understanding of what was happening, nothing like that. That created for, for this child and I a deep sense for them of, of lack of safety in our home, regardless of what I did or didn't do. Right? And it persisted for years.

Wow.

So you can imagine the relationship. And also, this one is— this has this indomitable will that is so beautiful. And I love a strong will in a child. Um, so, but if you mix that with, I don't You took me away from this place that I loved. Um, there's a whole lot of, a whole lot of anger and distrust and probably borderline hate, and also a desire to be loved, and, um, a lot of conflicting emotions and a deep belief that now they are not safe Actually anywhere, and they need to keep themselves safe. And so there I was with this overemphasis of my own ability to, to create safety and healing and all of that stuff. And when I let go of that, what I ended up having to do is accept this relationship. We're back to falling madly in love with reality. Right? I had to accept the bumps and the bruises and the nicks that had happened in this relationship with one of my children, and the complicated feelings on both sides. And I had to give it space and, and accept that it was part of our story in that season of life. By doing that, And it was as if instead of fighting against it and trying to make it something that it wasn't, by allowing it to be what it was, I let both of us breathe. Simon, we really like each other now. We really, we love each other now. This is a child that I now am able to delight in. But it is an absolute reflection of me actually taking my hands off the wheel and saying, like, I'm gonna— I am gonna fall madly in love with this reality.

Yeah, it's funny you say taking your hand off the wheel, because as you were describing it, like, 10 minutes— 10, more than 10 minutes ago, I, I actually thought about white-knuckling. That was the metaphor that came to mind. And holding, holding onto the wheel too tightly.

That is exactly how it felt. It felt like just gripping, this white-knuckle grip, holding all of the pieces of my life together as it felt like it was all falling apart. And this learning to unclench my fist and to hold my hands out and say, like, here I am. Like, this is I'm gonna, I'm gonna accept life as it comes and thrive here. I can like, but what I'm actually really saying is that I had to get to a place where I had to let go of a dream of having a very close relationship with one of my children, which has always been like, I want I want— I'm a mother. I want to be like a mother hen collecting her little, her little ducklings or chicks, or you know what I mean? And I had to release that dream and say, I don't get to— I don't, I don't know how this is going to turn out. And statistics can say a whole lot of things that can be actually really scary. But what I can do is show up faithfully every single day. And, and what I can do is when my child walks into the room, I can look at them with delight in my eyes. And what I can do is I can find ways to connect here in the middle of a dysfunctional relationship that Allow both of us space to breathe and not force this into being. You can't force somebody to trust you. You can only prove yourself trustworthy. You know what I mean? Like that. And just letting it— letting, letting us breathe created space to thrive.

And there we have the second ending of the pod, and we're coming up on time as well. So I—

Perfect.

Yeah. Wow, that's great. Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you, listeners. We'll speak to you again soon. Take care. Bye.