What is Family? With Janelle Basham & Katherine Hartzler

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I've got 2 fantastic people for you. We haven't done a 3-hander for quite a while, um, and haven't done a birth mum and daughter one for ages, but we did have done one before. But I, I think that these— the, the ladies that I'm going to be talking to today, listeners, are going to give me even more problems in a good way than the last one. So, um, today we've got Janelle Basham, uh, who is a birth mum and she's also the CEO of Brave Love, and her daughter Catherine. Catherine Hartzler. Got that right? Hartzler?

Absolutely, yeah.

Okay, cool. Um, so, uh, we have interviewed Janelle before, regular listeners will know, but Catherine is new to the show, so Welcome. Can I say ladies? Is that not too patronizing?

Yes.

It's okay.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Okay, cool. So looking forward to diving in today. So Catherine, you've listened. I did check with you before we hit record that you've listened to the interview with your mum, birth mum.

She—

Janelle's going to call herself Mum from now on. Um, did you learn anything new about her? Do you remember? Do you remember learning anything new about—

Yeah, so I think I, I will periodically Google her name to see what pops up. Um, and there's always something new that I learn about my birth story. Um, I think there has been Many times where I'm like, oh, I didn't know that, or oh, I didn't know this, or oh, I knew that, but I didn't— she hadn't gone into it in, in that much detail before. So that's one of the things that is really special to me is just I have this reference now that's alive and I can always go back to it. And I think that's one thing that stuck out when I listened to the podcast with, um, between you two. And one of the reasons that I'm excited to chat with you today.

Cool. So you've heard me ask the question, right? So, you know, what comes to mind when you hear this word, the name of the podcast, Thriving Adoptees? What does that bring up for you?

Yeah, I think really the biggest thing is the positivity behind adoption and everyone within the adoption community.

Everyone—

I know for myself, living in this community and being part of the community, it's not easy, right? But all of us can thrive at whatever place that we're at. So I think I love the name of the podcast. And I think shedding light on people's stories, organizations, is just going to further that cause of a thriving community.

Yeah. It, it is intentional, right? What we focus on gets bigger.

Mm-hmm.

So we can, we can, we can focus on the trauma or we can focus on the thriving.

Mm-hmm.

We're not, nobody's denying the trauma here. We're just choosing to focus on, on the thriving and, and the learnings, right? That's What I, I try to get across, what I try to focus every interview on, is, uh, it, it is the learning, what, what people have learned. And I'm trying to put, put that on a plate. The, the, the, the guests, the, the person that I'm interviewing, I'm trying to put that on a plate so that that can help somebody else along their thriving curve, their learning curve, their healing curve, whatever sort of curve they feel that they are, that they're on. So what's been, what do you see as the biggest drivers of your thriving, Katherine?

Honestly, my adoptive mom and Janelle. And also the relationship that I've built with my biological family outside of my biological parents. I grew up in an environment where adoption was not spoken of in a negative way. It was spoken of like we were special, that we were, we were—

Special.

Really, that we were just like these amazing kids, right? And that our birth mothers and birth fathers chose them. So we were a gift to my adoptive family. And I think we never really focused, like you said, on the trauma of it. And what I saw growing up was a relationship between my mom and the biological parents of myself and my siblings. So I grew up with 2 other adopted children, an older sister and a younger brother, and we were all adopted. We're all biracial. And my mom, my adoptive mom, she has relationships with all of the birth mothers. And most of the birth fathers. So we watched the relationship between both moms. And it just created a door that it felt more natural to have a relationship ourselves with our biological families. Yeah.

I was just interviewing— well, I was having a pre-interview conversation with an adoptee from my era, right? So Catherine, you're in your 20s or 30s, are you?

I mean, yeah, I'm in my, my 30s, early 30s.

Um, so I'm, I'm 59. I was chatting to an adoptee, she's probably in her 50s, she may be in her 60s, and clearly there's a, a, a notion of difference between these open, open and closed eras, are huge. And, and I, I really do feel that the, the quality of the adoptive parenting, if we want to use that word, is, it is so huge, right? I, I, I didn't— I, I get on pretty well with my mum. I got on pretty well with my dad. I did have some ups and downs. He was, uh, an only child, and, uh, and he was, he was sometimes tricky to be around, um, not just for me, right?

Right.

I didn't take it personally, um, but I didn't realize how lucky I'd got with them until I started interviewing fellow adoptees, because I didn't have a— I didn't have a benchmark, right? I didn't have a benchmark, um, and, uh, And now I do.

Yeah.

Um, I just want to bring in Janelle. Have you got anything you want to chip in on what we've said so far, Janelle?

No, I think what Katherine talked about, um, is beautiful when she mentioned that she watched, and her siblings as well, her adoptive mom build a relationship with the birth parents. And so often I, you know, I talk to hopeful adoptive parents and it's so easy to, um, think of adoption as just like the here and now and getting to know these birth parents. But what I'm so thankful for, for her family, is that they saw this as like a lifelong connection to the birth family, um, with these kids who are now adults being the ones that benefit from it in the end. So they really looked at it as this is a lifelong relationship that's going to outlive the relationship between the birth parents And the adoptive parents.

Yeah, it's huge, right?

Mm-hmm.

It's huge. Um, I, I don't know if I've talked about this on— I don't think I've talked about this with you, you know, but I, I connected with a, a cousin from on my, um, uh, birth mother's side a couple of months ago. Uh, and, um, She was, uh, he— I, I didn't know that I needed to hear this, but I did. It, it hadn't— she had some— he said that she was his favorite relative. Um, and that, that made me smile. And that she was always smiling and, um, she— cheeky. She sided with—

Yeah.

She sided with her nephews and nieces. Rather than her brother and sister-in-law, right? So she was a cheeky, kind of mischievous sort of thing, which I was really delighted to hear because I had no idea of the extent to which, you know, being forced to place.

Sure.

And I also found out a little bit more about their parents, my birth mother's parents, and, um, and, and who was the, the grandparents of this cousin that I connected to, right? It was— and I found out about the great-grandparents and that they were a bit freaky. Um, yeah, they, uh, the kids would go, the kids would go and see their grandparents and then the grandparents would send the parents a, a bill for the food that the kids had consumed. Wow. This is in the '60s. This is in the '60s. Yeah, I, I don't— I mean, it's— it is freaky at any particular time, but, um, so my birth uncle, my biological uncle, had taken his family away.

Okay.

From, from very strange, uh, very strange grandparents and very authoritarian. So I got more of the— I got a bigger feel of the forced nature.

Sure.

That clearly is not— was not your experience.

Yeah.

It's interesting how adoption— like, there can be openness in it. And you can get all of your answers, or you think you've gotten all of your answers. And yet it's still unfolding and unfolding and unfolding. And it'll just keep unfolding until, you know, the end. Um, so it is neat that you're able to get those little nuggets of information, um, still as you're continuing to grow and understand your adoption journey.

Yeah. And he, he was— he told me he was, he was scared that he didn't— he felt he hadn't gonna have a lot to share with me because he grew up in Canada. My birth mom stayed in In, in the UK. So, um, and then he— and I said, look, it's totally all right. And then even after, even after, um, the conversation, I got another email with him, some with some pictures, and he said the same thing again. I was so, I was so scared that I wasn't going to be able to give you all the information you want. And you're just like, yeah, no one's gonna have all the answers, right?

Right, exactly.

Yeah.

So, um, uh, Katherine, have you had much— have you had many obstacles to, to, to your thriving as a grown-up?

Obstacles to thriving in relation to my adoption journey or just my own life making?

Well, it's a really interesting point, right? Because Like, um, a— I did a— I'm really into personal development, kind of spiritual development stuff. And I was talking— I, I do a lot of online courses. I'm in one at the moment, but I did one a couple of years ago with a, a lady called Claire Diamond, who I've interviewed for the, for, for the show. And she said— and I said, look, I was asking her about this causation thing, right? Do— is this an adoption thing or a human thing? And she said, Simon, you'll never know.

Hmm.

And I, and I do think that we have a tendency as human beings to kind of, uh, misattribute stuff, right? So is this an adoption issue or is this a human issue?

Right.

It can be a, it can be a rabbit hole that doesn't yield— it can be very distracting, right? And are we ever gonna know, right?

Yeah.

And the next thing is, does it really matter? I don't know.

Right, right.

I don't know what you can make, what you can make out of that. Do you need a more specific question?

No, no, no. So I guess I'm just drawing comparisons between Janelle's story and my own story. I think one of the hurdles to thriving— I also was pregnant at a young age, had a son, chose to go a different route and parented him. And but can I, can I blame that on Janelle?

No.

I do think I have the blessing of looking at Catherine.

She's a biological grandma. What do you call yourself?

Mum.

Birth grandma.

We're not really big on titles in our family, I guess.

I want a title. I want a title.

Well, I like mum. That sounds so fun. But I have had the joy of watching Katherine through the years and looking at nature versus nurture and seeing the beautiful differences between birth mom and adoptive mom, even birth father and dad. Like, it's so interesting to me to see, like, okay, where does she get this from? Or where does she get that from? She's a beautiful writer. Beautiful. And I, you know, I have an opportunity to brag about her. So here you go. And so I love watching on her LinkedIn, just as she writes about different things and her journey to where she is now, and seeing how she navigated her own unplanned pregnancy versus how I did and how we both came out strong in the end. So I like to think that nature versus nurture, we're both wired just to survive, like we are wired to just keep moving forward. But then I also look at different parts of Katherine, I'm like, wow, that's so much of her family that she grew up in. And so I think that's really beautiful about our story. Katherine, will you share a little bit about kind of like your— a little bit about how you got into your career?

Yeah.

You wrote about it, and I was like, oh, I love that story.

Um, so, oh gosh, taking it back quite a few years. Um, so I became a young single mom, uh, at 20. I, um, decided to parent my son. Um, and so during the day I stayed home with him, and then I got stir-crazy and decided to take on a job. In the evenings, and I was a janitor. I was a janitor at an insurance company. Um, and I was there for a few months. I connected with the human resource manager. Her and I had, you know, built a relationship, and she ended up getting me my first job in insurance. I was the receptionist. I worked in the mailroom sending out policies, all the fun insurance stuff. Then I created a relationship within the claims department, moved there, then moved to the underwriting side, then moved to the broker side. And so really, it's just been like Janelle said, a lot of it has been— And based on survival, but always moving forward to the next step, the next thing that's going to move the needle. During that time of working at an insurance company, I also went to school full-time while also being a full-time mom, while also being a full-time employee. So very much survival mode, but it has all paid off and it was all so worth it. Even on the days where it felt like it wasn't worth it.

Yeah, because that's a lot to juggle.

Oh, yeah. Yep. For sure. But I would, I would do it all again to be at this, at this spot now in a heartbeat. So.

Determination, flexibility.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Stubbornness.

Very much so.

Yes.

Yeah. It's genetic.

Yes, that is genetic.

Yeah.

So what keeps you moving forward?

Um, so my son is about to be 12, so the impeding college bills. Um, no, really just him.

Send him to the UK, it's cheaper.

There you go, that would be great. He would love it, he would love it. He would make me come too, but that's okay. Um, I think right now, um, I'm 32. I have tried to shift my focus into, you know, what are my hobbies, what do I enjoy doing, because I'm not in I'm not, you know, forced to work 9, 10-hour days and then go home and parent a young child who needs all of your attention. So I've actually picked up some hobbies. I coach basketball, watch my son's baseball, which he just recently started. And it's more so about enjoying the place that I've gotten to. Which is definitely special.

Yeah. Complete change of tack, and I'm just being nosy. I can see a necklace with something written on, and I want to ask you what it says on it.

So actually, Janelle and my son got this for me for Christmas. I think it says mom. And yeah, they went shopping together, and I was gifted it. On Christmas this year.

Yeah.

Or last year. Yeah.

Because I, I was seeing the, the, the name Hartzler, and I was looking at it, and I can't, I can't make— is Hartzler a Jewish name?

Hartzler? It's actually—

well, it's German.

It's German.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. I, I was thinking I can't read it, read the necklace because it's in Hebrew or something like that, but it just says Okay.

Yeah, real simple.

Okay.

Um, I contemplated taking it off but left it on because I was trying to get my computer to work.

So I, I'm, I'm struggling to reach your— find any sort of redemption story here, you know, like some tough stuff and coming throughout the other side. Um, you just seem to be next Kind of just keep going. That's the sort of—

And I think that's kind of how we're wired, where both of us, when we're handed really tough stuff, it's like, okay, now what? Now what do we do with this? And how do we get through this? And how do we keep pushing ourselves forward? So I think that is like a little genetic thing.

Yep. And the support thing.

Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and I think for, for both of us, um, we both have had a lot of support through our families, through our siblings, through, you know, our extended family members. through just even our community. Um, and has that made us successful in our adoption journeys? Like, what is that recipe for success that, you know, other people are striving to find? I don't know. And not that we have it all figured out, we totally don't. Um, but yeah, I think we both of us just keep striving to, to better ourselves and to, um, You know, make things, make things better.

Yeah, because people say if you're going through tough stuff, keep going. So there's basically not a lot of wallowing.

Who has time for that?

You don't, you don't want to waste time wallowing because you could be close to the next great thing.

I will say, Simon, when you asked her the question of like what keeps her going and she talked about her son, it was the same thing for me. Even though I made an adoption plan for Catherine, from the moment that that adoption happened, I was so driven to make sure that this child was always going to be proud of me. And so I think it was also her that pushed me to don't just stay stagnant in your shame and your sadness, like, pick the pieces up and keep going. So when college was hard, when life was hard, it was like, okay, I cannot disappoint this child. Like, I cannot do that. And so For me, and I see it in her as well, it's, it's our kids that keep us going forward.

Yeah.

You also mentioned before we hit record, Janelle, your faith. Can you share a little bit about that?

Sure, sure. Um, I grew up in a very religious household. Um, my parents had us in church every single time the doors were open. My dad led the music at church. My mom was a Sunday school teacher. So it was just something that I grew up in. And I don't— it was just my normal, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

And then when I discovered that I was pregnant with Katherine, it was kind of— life became real. It was like, oh, you know, my parents can't make everything better in my life now. I'm launching into adulthood. I'm paying consequences for decisions made, whether they're good or they're bad. And that's when I think my faith became very real to me. Looking back at how my parents viewed their faith and religion is very different than how I do. When I was making my adoption plan, I very much was leaning on my faith to like, God, close every door if you want me to parent, bust everyone open if you want me to make this decision or that one. And I just had a peace. And it didn't make it all better in any way, shape, or form. Like, it was still incredibly hard and still hard to think about it at certain times in my life. Um, but I had this foundation of, um, just a, a peace that I could lean on something that there's something much bigger happening here than just what I can see. And so I felt like during making this adoption plan that my world was very small. And now, as I've kind of gone on through life and gotten married and had more children, my faith is very real to me in a different way than it— than how I grew up. It's just, it's something that I hold dear to and it's kind of the foundation of decisions that I make and how I love people and how I see value in people. It's just part of who I am.

I was having a conversation with ChatGPT on this subject.

That's dangerous.

Yeah. Uh, the, the question was something like, um, it seems to me that, uh, that people that are— that have faith, um, seem to be less bothered by trauma.

Hmm.

And, um, yeah, and it said, yeah, they, they are.

So chat told you that. That's terrifying. Yeah.

Um, because it, it's true. It, it's, it's true. It's, it's bigger than.

Yeah.

Something bigger, bigger than. Um, so I'm gonna ask Catherine, and she's tell me that she's not religious at all now, and it has no sense whatsoever. But I'm not religious either, right? So I went to Sunday school for a while. I went to a Protestant Church of England school. We sung sort of hymns every morning. We listened to a Bible reading every morning, but it didn't mean anything to most of us, including me. But what about you, Katherine? Have you got a take on this? Are you a Christian? Are you a believer?

Yes. So similar to Janelle, I was placed into a very Christian household. Again, Sunday school, youth group. I led singing sometimes. My dad preached. My mom, you know, we were, we were very, very involved in church. I also went to a private Christian school for middle and high school. And then when I got pregnant, I also had to lean very strongly on my belief in a higher, higher power who has a plan for my life and who knew the situation that I was going to be in because I didn't know anyone other than Janelle who had had a child at a young age. Everyone else in my, in my town, were devout Christians who did not engage in the sort of things that I did, apparently. So I definitely had to craft a new one-on-one relationship with God where it was— I just had to really believe that he knew the path better than I knew. And that he was going to support me even when others didn't. So he has not to this day failed me yet. And I have been through some things. So like Janelle said, it's not the same relationship of going to church every Sunday or, you know, singing worship songs. But it is very much— that is who I go to when I'm in times of, you know, trial or questioning. Because he's just been there. And I can't attribute where I'm at to anything else. I'm not that smart. I'm not that funny. I'm— and yeah, it's all him. So yeah, that's my answer. Very similar to Janelle's.

Yeah.

So Simon, going back in family history, my great-grandparents were actually Amish.

Okay.

So, um, looking at it, seeing how things have come down through the generations, it's very interesting to me. My grandmother broke away from it. They were actually Old Order, Old Order River Brethren. Um, and so seeing how things have just changed with each generation has been really interesting.

The— it seems to me that, you know, the separation thing is, is huge though, right?

Mhm.

That, uh, when we feel separate, when we feel different, when we feel, uh, when we feel alone, we're at our lowest point. The sense of separation. And presumably your faith reduces that, kind of knocks that on the head.

I would agree. It eases the weight. I think it eases the weight knowing that something else is helping you through those, those situations.

Yeah. What, what about, what about shame? Because one of the things that I'm seeing at the moment is that identity, identity in Christ kind of blows the self-esteem problem out of the water. Um, I don't know whether people would say that in religious circles or not, but— It kind of seems to sum it up for, for me. A few, a few young adoptees that I've interviewed recently, and, you know, even younger than you, Catherine, you know, like 18, 19, 20-year-olds, 25-year-olds, um, with a strong faith, they, they, they exude a lot of energy, and that seems to have also, yeah, blown It's finding faith for them, um, has helped them through the tough stuff, and, and their energy just kind of beams off them. Because the Thriving Doctors logo is a diamond, right? That's kind of the idea.

Mm-hmm.

That's to challenge the, um, the, the given away thing, you know, like I was that, uh, the lady Sheila that I'm going to be interviewing shortly, the, the lady that I spoke to earlier on, she had a— we're talking a lot about that for our era of adoptees. Um, they're kind of not good enough to be kept.

Hmm.

You know, I had that briefly with my, um, with the teddy bear moment, you know, the, the idea that the, the idea It didn't take root, but the idea came to me that she didn't love me enough to keep me. So what say you about self-esteem, religion, shame, all these things?

I think for me, My parents, you know, they would say, you know, you're a child of God's first, right? And that kind of grounded all of us, whether we could fully understand from a young age what that meant. But having that knowledge that even before we were put on the earth like we were— we had another Father in Heaven, you know. So I don't know if it— I don't know if that makes it easier, um, but it did play a role in understanding that family isn't always about who's in the house, right? Um, family can be someone that you've never seen before. So I think my parents specifically did a really good job of, of helping us understand that. Before we started formulating questions in our own heads. And also, I think Janelle was always really consistent. And I think that played a big part of my self-assurance, is that I didn't— I didn't even have to question a lot of things because she had never— not been there. Um, but Janelle, do you, do you have something to add there?

Yeah, I think, um, I think we can all feel shame at some point, whether it's adoption-related or just like how we responded to a question or whatever. Um, but I think for me it's all about having purpose and knowing what my purpose is and knowing that there's like a much bigger plan. So I think for me, purpose is really important and kind of puts stuff into perspective when I am having, you know, those self-doubt moments or feeling shameful or questioning why did I do something this way. I just know there's a bigger purpose for whatever it is with my journey or what I'm trying to do. So, yeah.

Yeah. The, the self, the, the, the, she didn't love me enough. Um, that, that didn't come. I, I, uh, yeah, I, I didn't have that thought till 40.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, really?

Okay.

Hmm.

But I was, uh, I sometimes talk about this, but, you know, business has been a far— it has been a chronic source of stress, far more stress for me than adoption stuff. It's been a couple of painful moments.

Do you feel like, as you have different struggles outside of, you know, processing adoption, that it's easy to like kind of blame it on or pinpoint it and say, is this because of the adoption?

Um, I don't do that.

No, no. Okay.

I, I don't, I don't do that. And, um, I'm sure a very intelligent shrink could get me thinking that way.

Sure, sure.

I, I, you know, like, do you ever watch a, do you ever watch a courtroom drama and you think the, the guy for the guy or the go for the defense, they're very convincing. And then the—

Sure.

And then the next— then the, the, the, then the prosecutor comes on, they're very convincing too.

Yeah.

Right. It's that— that's their job, to be convincing. Like, so I, I do think shrinks go, well, actually, Simon, your, uh, your, um, your, your business stuff, uh, is, um, is the, the cause of it is, is the undergrounding, uh, primal wound thing. I'm sure somebody could get me thinking that way for a while.

Yeah.

But I, I don't, I don't see the two things. I don't see the two things being together. Um, how I, you know, how me making sense of them was I, I can get better at business. I can't reading the prime— I didn't feel that I had I didn't feel— I didn't believe that I was primarily wounded until I read The Primal Wound. I didn't do that.

Yeah.

Um, so, but my, my own relationship with The Primal Wound has been, um, relief, then concern that I'm stuck with it, and then the realization that it's not true. And I only— I was only in the tricky part of it for a couple of weeks, maybe a month, before I realized that it's not true in my take on it. As in, I think the primal wound is psychological, but we're not our psychology.

Right.

So it's like, um, Nancy Berry describes it as spiritual, but I, I don't, I don't believe our spirit can be wounded. Have you read it, Catherine?

I have not, but I, I think I should from this conversation.

You should. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it. I will.

Yeah, I'll definitely, definitely read that. Yeah.

Yes. I will say, Simon, something interesting happened to me, um, a couple months ago where, I mean, I talk about adoption all of the time, and I can look at my journey. Obviously, Katherine's a part of my life, and I'm a grandma, and, and all this, all the good stuff. Um, and yet still Deep sadness can pop in at the most bizarre times. So a few months ago— well, for the last like 10 years, my dad had been dealing with dementia. And I was the primary family support person for him. So as he was going through those last stages, and we knew we were getting to the end, I had to sign the hospice paperwork. And that was removing him off of all his meds. I knew this was the end. And something that the family had prepared for, we had talked through. I had even spoken to my dad about what were his wishes right at the end. And when I went to sign that paperwork, I found myself sitting in this room with people watching me. This woman hands me this piece of paper. My daughter's sitting beside me watching me. And I felt like I was signing my entrustment paperwork all over again. It was the most bizarre feeling. And it made me realize that some of those deep, deep pains that I felt, like, I will never heal from them totally. And that's okay. But it was just one of those experiences where I was like, I thought I had worked all through this. I thought this was all right. And of course, the nurse is just looking at me. And she's like, it's okay, honey. It's like, No, this is something totally different.

Yeah.

But just in that moment, and it caught me off guard. But it was feeling this grief all over again of this is, this is a final moment of me signing the paperwork of this is a decision that only I can make. And grieving somebody that is still here present on earth. And not knowing what the next stages would look like.

Mm-hmm.

And so I think it is interesting for all of us in the adoption triad and everybody who's been impacted by adoption, how that grief can show up 30 years later. Um, and yeah, it's just those wounds are deep, but we don't have to stay in that pain. And for me, it was like recognizing Wow, this is a lot like what happened 30-some years ago. And these are the same feelings that I felt. And I'm okay. And just recognizing that I don't have to sit there in that pain, it's okay to feel all of it. And recognize that this is a really, really sad emotional time. But that I can keep moving forward in life. So yeah, when we talk about wounds, man, those wounds can hurt sometimes, and they show up in yucky, yucky times.

Yeah, I, I totally agree. I mean, the, uh, the, the emotional, the psychological wound is there. It does come back.

It—

that is the way that life works. I totally agree. I totally agree.

Yeah.

What I mean when I say, when I say that we we are fundamentally— well, yeah, fundamentally whole. I'm talking a level underneath our psychology, a level underneath our—

Sure.

Underneath our emotion, emotions. So like a, a buffer zone, right? So there's a— they tell it like rock-paper-scissors, just Yeah, it's like, it's, it's like rock, it's like rock-paper-scissors, like the analogy rock-paper-scissors. So the trauma is on the paper, but the paper doesn't— and the paper hides the rock. It doesn't cut the rock. Nancy Verrier says that the scissors cut the rock.

Hmm.

But that's not the way, that's not how, that's not the truth of the game. So the, the, um, knowing that we are all whole doesn't stop us, in my opinion, having moments of grief, loss, intention. I'm, I'm just saying that That's not who we are.

Yeah. I was speaking recently at a conference. And as I was sharing, I said that there's always been a hole in my heart. Like, from the moment I left the hospital, there was a hole in my heart. And someone said, like, well, has that hole ever healed? And I said, no. And I don't want it to, because if it heals, then I filled it up with something That, you know, it, it, it can't be filled. And it's almost now like I'm proud that I have that hole because that means I have loved Catherine and adored Catherine. And I don't want that hole to ever fill up because that's a part of Catherine, if that makes sense. And yeah, and I'm, I'm okay with that hole in my heart. I've learned that that's my new normal. And I've learned how to thrive with that hole in my heart.

Somebody explained this to me, a terminology called psychological flexibility, right? So to put it in more easy-to-understand language for me that I think is true, right? If we're okay with not feeling okay, we're okay. If we're okay with not feeling okay, we're okay. So if we're the other way around, if we're not okay about not feeling okay, then we're fighting, we're suppressing, we're self-medicating, we're doom scrolling, we're, um, using retail therapy, right? Uh, we are consuming alcohol, we are consuming drugs, we are workaholics or something, you know, like all these things, right? But if we're okay with not feeling okay We're always okay. Instead of to fight it, we've become emotophobic. One of my mentors says we've become emotophobic. We've been— we're— and I, I— the guy that taught me about— told me about that, I once said to him, well, I'm, uh, I'm worried about worrying. And he said something like, well, you're You'll become a moron, Simon. You'll have more on your mind.

Worrying causes wrinkles, Simon.

Don't do that. Well, I'm not going to go for the Botox thing. Katherine, sorry, we've left you out for the last 10 minutes.

What do you make of all that? No, I actually really, really like the analogy. I also like how you said your spirit can't be harmed. Um, I think that's something that I try to hold on to. Um, life is not easy. It will never be easy. Nothing is perfect. Why should I assume that my life is going to be perfect? But if I go into it with a positive mindset and, um, try to find the good in things, typically the good reveals itself at some point. So no, I think this is a, this is a great conversation.

Cool. Um, so we're coming up on time here. Uh, I, I ring my mum at this time and I'm— she's— I'm gonna be 10 minutes late. Uh, so, um, what have you— what have you got?

Have you either—

have you got anything that you'd like to share that I've not? You're not going to say anything now because I've told you I'm going to be late ringing my mum, so you're not— you're not going to want to keep saying anything. She'd be okay. She'll be okay. She can do a couple of minutes if you've got something to— that you want to share that I've not asked you about.

You ask us a nice loaded question right at the end. Um, Katherine, do you have anything that you want to share?

I think in any environment, whether it be adoption, whether it be your career, parenting, I think there is always the opportunity to thrive. I think finding the community that supports you is crucial. And, you know, what is family, right? Family is those who are supportive, are consistent, check in on you. And I think that can be anyone. So I would say find those who you, you feel are family, and it's, it's not dependent upon blood relation all the time. And just be, be grateful for those people because that, that is a gift. And, and there, there are people out there. That will help you, help you thrive. Yeah.

And you've just given me the, the title for the, the, the interview. There, there you are, Catherine. What is family?

I love that.

I love that.

Yeah. I'm thinking about a Chic song as well from the '70s. Maybe there's an adoption organization in the UK, they're called We Are Family.

Okay. Wow.

Delighted. Delightful conversation.

So, Simon, you can see us.

I can.

Obviously, those listening can't see us. What are your takeaways from, you know, we've talked a lot nature versus nurture. Now that you've met Katherine, what do you think?

Oh, it's, it's usually a loaded question. I know, both, bit of both. Yeah, a, a bit of both. But the consistent, the, the, the theme is, you know, what, what, what's true. The, the faith is, it comes from both sides, right? So that's been consistent.

Mhm.

That's been consistent. And, you know, I, yeah, I don't really know what to say other than what I've said already. I'd be in danger of waffling and duplicating. So, yeah.

Well, thank you so much for letting us come on and share and talk about our perspective. I love what Katherine said about family because I can look at her and her family is huge, huge. I mean, we're talking her siblings, her siblings' birth families, like it is just massive. And somehow she has been able to juggle it all and be successful at it. So it's been such a joy for me just to watch her grow and through the years and cheer her on. And thank you so much for giving us the opportunity to come on here and share a little bit about our experiences. Cool.

Fantastic. Thanks a lot. Proud, proud mom. Yeah. Thanks, listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye-bye.