Monthly Message Design Office Hours

Sorry to pop in, Tamsen, but you are muted. I don't know. Oh my Lord, this morning, I gotta tell you. Oh, geezy peasy. Um, and Jen's probably— now I see the comment, she's like, uh, you're muted. So the theme of this morning is technical difficulties. So, um, welcome. I am Tamsen Webster. I am the founder of the Message Design Institute. And the reason why I focus on ideas and how to talk about them is because I am crap at technology. But thankfully, I am not crap at ideas and how to talk about them. So that's what we're going to be doing today. Today we have two different folks that have very kindly sent their first versions of— though for them, it's probably— I don't know. Probably not your first version. You sent to me the first time I've seen it version of your idea and your message, and they have kindly allowed us to use that information as the basis of some of the conversations today so that we can look at kind of how to tune something up in real time. I am riffing and stalling here a little bit because I cannot get what I would really love to have up on screen up on screen. Uh, which is frustrating to say the least. Um, but in the meantime, uh, I am going to try to, you know, wing it, because what else, what else have we if nothing, if not that? Um, as a brief bit of introduction, uh, which would be so much better if I could actually put it on screen, but again, can't. Uh, Actually, there is one thing I can do to put it on screen. So let me do share a screen. I'm going to share a screen and I'm going to share that window.

Yeah.

And I'm going to share that window and we are going to make this window big. I can't see anything anymore. So hopefully this works because I can't see or talk to anybody other than myself right now. Um, so as a way of just setting everything up, because it has to do with what I saw with both of these really strong to start, uh, core cases that we're working on, is to give everyone a little bit of background. Um, this in imagery and metaphor is very much how I think about how people think about ideas. Um, that is the thing that I've been studying for 25 years. It's the thing that I'm studying in my doctoral program right now. But on the left, you have the person to whom you want to share or with whom you want to share your idea. On the right is you with your idea. And the symbology here is important because the audience, who I'm just gonna use in place of all the other versions of things we could talk to, speak, your clients, your customers, your actual audience, your readers, whatever. Whatever. There is a thing that they're looking for. So I put that as the Holy Grail, your idea, light bulb. But between the two of you is a big old gap. And what's important is that we have to understand that when you are— when people think about a new idea, they only start to consider that new idea once that kind of grail aspect is in play. And which means That is really going to be important because if they want something, then the only time they're going to be willing to even consider something new is when that question is first and foremost in their mind. So just to kind of make this straightforward, I like to refer to that as if and then. If I want this thing, says your audience, and then you with the idea step in oftentimes and say, well, then you've got my idea. Right. And so it's this if the thing somebody wants and the then the thing to do to get it that we need to figure out how to close the gap between us, between those two. Now, the primary issue here, and I mean this, is that in between those two things, particularly— and this is important from the view of the audience, we tend to be blind to it— is risk. I like to embody risk here in my Kraken named Frank and Frank is everything that could go wrong about doing something different. Think of it as objections. Think of it as limiting beliefs, all of these things that are getting in the way of that person saying, I want this, but I have to do something right in order to do it differently. So again, conceptually, then what we need to do is we need to make it feel safe for someone to say, ah, if I want this thing, then if I do this thing, if I adopt your idea, then I will A, get it, and B, I'm not gonna fall in and be subject to Frank. Now, if you're looking at this though, you might say, that's a pretty unsupported bridge. Is. But what's really important, I want you to remember this if-then, because this if-then, also known as a conditional, You can think of it as well as cause and effect relationships, stimulus and response. It is the, the prime— by which I mean like the most primal building block of understanding that we have as humans, that everything that we do is a product of some relationship that we have established in our head, or guessed relationship about 'If I do this, then I'm pretty sure this will happen,' right? 'If I want this, then I should do this.' Like, there's various versions of it, but it is the basic building block of understanding. And I really want to reinforce that because that is where most messages fail. We'll talk about that more when we, when we start talking about the examples. But just that enough by itself often isn't enough, and the primary reason is because not only is that if-then, that conditional, the, the primal building block of understanding, right? If it's not there, we really have trouble understanding. But the second thing is, is that the very first evaluation that any new idea undergoes is the probability that it will deliver on the thing that somebody wants, the likelihood. That if I do this thing, if I adopt your idea, then I will get this thing that I want. And so this is one of the reasons why sometimes, yes, just giving somebody your idea in context of what they want is enough. But most times it doesn't feel safe enough for them in order to do that. So really what that means is, you know, what we need to do is that we need to kind of add the kind of support to what is, in essence, a claim where you're saying, if you want this, then adopt my idea because this and this other thing are true. Okay, so again, philosophically, it's—

it—

we have to make this picture work for every idea in order for someone to even consider adopting it. Okay, so whenever I look at a message, whenever I look at an idea, these are the first 4 things that I am checking out. Um, I am looking at— to just to kind of reduce it all to into something else— if, then, because, and, or shortened as the ITBA. Okay, hopefully people aren't like screaming at me right now and going, that's not what we do, we couldn't see anything. Hopefully you could. Um, I need to stop sharing my screen. And so there— hi, I'm back. Okay, so I think that's helpful when we start talking about, um, what Robert and, uh, Satvik— Satvik, hopefully that's the way to say it, you will correct me momentarily. Um, and what I'm gonna do is, though my grand plan was to be able to write on your PDF as we were talking about it, the next best thing in my mind is to at least let people see it. Um, so I am going to put that up on screen. Don't worry, I know where that is. I just need to get to it. Uh, we're going to put Satvik's first because you sent it first. Um, I'm going to put this over here. I'm going to move that there. Um, and I'm going to share my screen again. So we are going to share screen, share screen. We're going to go here. We're going to go window. We're going to go here and here. And Satvik, you are up. So, Jen, would you please bring Satvik to join? Hey, first thing, how do I correctly pronounce your name?

Thank you, Tamsen Webster. You pronounced it perfectly. Thank you.

Fabulous. OK, so welcome. We can see that you are— are you the Go All In Agency?

I'm the founder. Yeah, I'm the founder and CEO.

Super. OK, so what we're going to do as we talk about this is I'm going to go straight just for the sake of time. We're going to go briskly and right to the heart of everything. Do I have your permission to do that?

That's what I'm here for.

OK, super. Great. So I am— let's see if Jen— yes, you will put that up for me. Thank you. So this worksheet, which is one of the things that I deliver for free to folks that— or have— has all of the pieces that you just saw. Actually, if you look kind of in the background, I don't know. Yeah, you can see that that bridge is there. And this core question serves as the if, and the core idea serves as the then. Hopefully everybody's on board with that, right? The core question over here, which, um, Satvik has, is how do we build unshakable resilience, or how do we make decisions in alignment with nature? That's his if, right? So that needs to represent something that the audience, whomever that is, actively and knowingly wants. And then second, the then is to focus on clarity and connection to build unshakable resilience. I'm going to have everybody like, don't worry about anything else on the screen right now because that's, that's the first thing that we're really going to focus on is just those two things. So to get exciting about this, I'm going to see if I can do— do, do, do, do, do. No, no, no. There we go. I'm going to try to get us so that we can see that we're really focused on this piece. Okay. So, um, the first thing I would say about this is that the, the, the kind of guiding rule of the if is that this needs to be something that somebody actively and knowingly wants. There's a, there's a number of reasons for that, but, um, the main one is, is that the way our brains think about ideas is that in these conditionals, in these cause effects, in these if-then statements. If somebody does not consider the if to be relevant, right, to be like present, the whole thing falls apart. Okay, so like literally, like everything, you know, it looks like it's all even and stuff. I mean, it all starts here because if somebody doesn't say, yes, I actively, knowingly, urgently want to know the answer to this question, Without you having to set it up and introduce me to why it's important, like, that's really important. None of the rest of it works. Okay. So since I'm all about kind of like reflection and adult learning, um, I want you to self-critique now, right now that you see it on, on, on screen, like where, what would you say? I'm like, oh, do you immediately see kind of some things that may need to shift there? I mean, that's a leading question. There are some things that need to shift. I just, I just want you to like, do you have a sense of what they are at this point?

Totally, totally. No, I, I'm appreciating this. So, um, since I sent you that, I've gone back through and, and going through some of the material that you shared online, I'm like, that's not a question I don't think people are actively asking. And what I've come to, and I'd love to know your thoughts on this, is what I have written down for myself is How can I feel less overwhelmed or lost as I build my business or movement? And I'm open to, of course, how we want to build on this. Okay. Or totally scrap it.

It's much better. So, so it's much better. One of the first things I would say is, as soon as you, as soon as you put a any kind of and/or statement in there, you're starting to split their attention and they don't— like, people don't have— like, they're not able to, to judge it as quickly. And if they can't judge it quickly, and I mean this like as an intuitive judge, then they're gonna kind of like go, well, I feel lost but not overwhelmed, or what, I feel overwhelmed or lost, or like, what if I'm both? Like, we don't want them like wasting any of their potential ideal evaluation, like, like, we don't want them spending any of those bits and bytes in their heads on something that isn't necessary. So one of the first things I would say is, if you had to choose, and you do, is it overwhelmed or lost? Because those are different, right? Like, so this is important to understand because it's like, it really is saying, of all the things that you could solve, are you more about solving overwhelm Are you most more about solving lostness, right? Or is there— and this is something that, you know, you may want to think about too— is there something that you can kind of add to it to say like, or like something that they're actually looking for, right? So they're saying, yeah, if I had that and they know that again, the key here is they have to know it. Would I feel less overwhelmed? Then they would say automatically, oh, well, if I could just have that, then I wouldn't feel so overwhelmed or lost. Like, that's— sometimes it's helpful to start from that perspective because that can help them kind of— they move themselves along and they're like, yeah. You can also start at overwhelmed or at lost, but not at overwhelmed or lost. So gave you some time to think about that. Like, again, you're not going to necessarily get it right in our, like, super fast time here, but, um, what might work there for you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, I—

if I had to pick one or the other, I think that's tough. Um, what I'm— what I'm— what's going through my mind is like, how can I, um, go maybe one layer deeper?

Okay, so how can you, or how can the audience go one layer deeper?

How can I, how can I ask a question that is actually underlying the overwhelm or the lostness that they might be feeling?

Okay, that will work only if you are aware, if they are aware of what's getting in the way. Um, so let me, again, I'm trying so hard to figure out how to do this. Uh, nope, that's not what I want. Um, okay, I'm sharing the window, right? So if I share— okay, we're gonna do— we're gonna get exciting here. Okay, hold on.

Yeah, one thing came to my mind too, and I'd love to share. Um, if— yeah, like, I think there's a fear of making a wrong decision.

Okay, okay. So then what we're trying to do here then is to say, uh, if we're back into He— like, how can I— so is it, how can I make the best decision? How can I improve my decision-making? Like, or is there something about the nature of that? Yeah, yeah.

How can I make better decisions? And how can I avoid making shitty decisions?

Okay, can't put an 'and.' Ah, right.

Well, I'm just saying, like, I think that might be more punchy. I don't know.

Well, okay, so this is an important point. So thank you for, for voicing that. What we're building here is the— eventually we can say it as, how can I avoid making the, the not so great decisions? But in order to achieve clarity about what the argument is actually for, right, you could avoid in a whole bunch of different directions. Something, right? Do you see what I mean? Like, I could avoid it this way, I could avoid it that way, I could avoid it this way. And what you ultimately— if you want them to move towards your idea, you need to move them towards something that your idea solves for, right? So it's not just this idea will help you avoid bad decisions. This idea is going to allow you to do something. Like, it is going to allow you to make better decisions, which kind of, by the, you know, by definition is, um, you know, if you could also— here's an idea, um, you could frame it as, how can I make the— you know, how can I choose the best option from a range of decisions, right? So that could be something like that as well. Um, decisions, you could also say, how can I choose from, you know, make the best choice from a range. I mean, tell me a little bit about— because, you know, your original question voiced your answer, which was sometimes we can pop forward. You know, you talked about being in alignment with nature. And what was the name that you gave to your resilience approach?

Unshakeable Resilience.

Unshakeable Resilience. I mean, so sometimes. And so the first thing I would say about that is that Neither of them. I would, I would not have guessed. So it's lovely to hear this, that you associate this with better decision-making. Right. But if that's not ultimately what you want to anchor on, right, like if you actually think because it is possible, for instance, that someone might ask to say, how can I kind of withstand things? How can I be more resilient? Is a fine question. Right. But what that does is it basically says that, okay, Now, instead of just saying, hey, you need this thing, you're basically saying the best way to be resilient is your approach to it.

Correct. And I love— you just clued me on to something else that could be useful here. Something about like, in the age of uncertainty.

How can I— I mean, yeah, I mean, exactly. Yeah. In this age of uncertainty. Yeah. Okay, perfect. Now, the thing is, is as picky as I just was about all of that, The most important thing about this is this is not— I just want to make this quick note. This is— the question is not where you differentiate. It's in the whole if-then statement. Right. And what I mean by that is this question is necessary. Remember, this is the one that establishes relevance. Another way to think about this is that, you know, in marketing terms, this is the question that if they ask this, you would want to show up in their consideration set. Of people to talk to, things to read, etc. Like, they're like, okay, there's some people who talk about resilience, and then they would scan and say, whose approach on like immediate evaluation seems most likely to work for— to work, period? And which one seems most likely to work for me, right? And so it's going to be your answer to that that's going to be really significant. So I would say in the grand scheme of things, with what we have here— and I'm trying to like manage 17 different, um, is that to be more resilient now, like if you end up there, which I think is a strong place to start because, A, it's a question that people are asking. It's a thing that right now you can say, yes, the age of uncertainty. One could legitimately argue that we're always at uncertain points. But that's kind of one of those things that we're getting there. With, uh, you know, we're trying to get there. I'm sorry, let me say this. Um, it's one of those things where right now people— this is the age of uncertainty. I don't know if we've ever said that we've not been in an uncertain age, but it's a good thing because it is part of the zeitgeist right now. So one of the first things, um, uh, that we want to do— so I want to make sure we've got some time for Robert, and then we can kind of come back to all of this— is that is that, you know, like I said, the— because everything starts with that if, what we're looking for with this is the most, um, is the most unwantable question. Like, not unwanted, like they need to want that question so much that it's really unlikely they're going to unwant it, okay? Meaning not only does it need to be relevant, right, but it needs to be as— it feel as urgent as possible for them. So one of the ways that I often talk about this with clients is to say, hey, what is— is it this question? Which it could be. This is a good question. Would be representative of the most— how do I want to put this? Representative of the most persistent irritant that they are experiencing right now in their life or their business. My good friend Kate O'Neill talks about how sometimes, as leaders of thinking— I like to call them thinking leaders, not thought leaders, because that's what we really want to do is change how people think about things. She talks about it as oftentimes we're drawn to the humanity-level problem. And I heard a picture of that with the alignment with nature. There's some aspect of that. I'm like, ah, There's your humanity level problem. And I think what you did beautifully was you went down to the individual level problem, which is great. And my friend Shelley Dolley talks about how you have to be able to connect with people at individuals in order for— like, that's how you build your actual community of people around your idea. And, and to sell the idea, like, again, depending on where you're trying to go with it, like if you're trying to speak or write books or whatever, you need to know that, that individual. Then there's this middle layer that Kate in particular talks about as the business level problem. Now, I don't know, Satvik, if like this is something you're trying to solve with your agency or not. Yeah, but we need to see like, how does the resilient piece like show up as the business-level problem? And that's the question I think that's still open for you to answer.

That's right.

Is that fair?

Is that a place to stop for now?

That's exactly it. Yeah. And I worked on my bedrock beliefs as well. What I sent you, I kind of adjusted them.

OK, great.

I will keep working on it.

Yeah. So the thing that I would tell you about that and is the answer, right, is not and, and, and. So, you know, we don't need to put it back up on screen, but you had said clarity and connection. So I'm just going to use those as an example. What we need to do, because just like we don't want to split people's attention at the front of evaluating idea, we also don't want to split their attention at the back. Right. So one big question needs one big answer. And you're like, yeah, but there's two core components. I know, but one of them is going to modify the other, right? So even if it— even if nothing changed about your core component, like the things that come together to create that, then, then you would— you need to smoosh them together. So it's connected clarity, for instance, right? Or clear connections. Right. That's like— and that's a really good first test on if saying, hey, how do I build more resilience? Connected clarity. That's not bad, right? Because what you know, but you're like, but that's a great— you're like, just as you said it, you're like, oh, it's a really good way to test and to say, is that right? Because it needs to feel right to you. And if it doesn't feel right to you, it's not going to feel right to anybody else. Pretty darn sure.

So is there some kind of, uh, just real quick on that, is there like some kind of intrigue that I'm trying to like make people be like, oh, that's interesting, I didn't think about that, but I don't quite know what that means?

Like, I would— no, we do not want to go— so there's a— okay, the best way I like to call it, unexpectedly obvious, right? So they need to, they need to be able to like quickly smoosh it together in their head and kind of take a guess. About what you might mean, but it can't mean— this is why, like, naming something like, you know, unshakable resilience, I don't know what that is, right? I don't even know, like, I don't have— you're not like in that quick thing. I don't know. I don't have enough information to be able to do that. And the answer is not more words, right? So the, the other way that it's talked about is the Heath brothers of Make It Stick. Switch, uh, Drive, um, they talk about it as post-dictable, meaning you want something that reflecting back on it you go, oh, that makes sense. But it wants to be something that both— neither of those elements should be something that the audience could have just predicted, right? And, you know, I work with a lot of folks, they're like, innovation. And I'm like, y'all, if it's not innovative, why are they even— like, then it's not a new idea. So like, we don't need to say that. Does that help? So I don't think you're far, honestly, but like, I think it starts to become much clearer as soon as you get that question clear, because then it— then you can start to do that test of does it make sense as an answer, as a postdictable, unexpectedly obvious answer to that, right? And I'd say start there before you ever start to get into your kind of bedrock beliefs, those principles that support it.

Got it. Super useful.

All right.

I would love to send you an updated version and get your thoughts on it.

Sure. Let's do it. Okay.

Thank you.

Take care, sir.

Thank you for this. All right.

You're welcome. Robert, here you go. All right. I've got Robert's, I've got Robert's thing here somewhere. All right. So, ooh, that's exciting. Okay. I'm not going to do it that way. I'm going to do it screen sharing way. Uh, share screen, and we're going to share that window, and we're going to share Robert, and we're going to share that. There we go. So Robert, it's teeny tiny. Don't worry, I will make it bigger for people. Um, welcome.

Hi Robert.

I, I'm assuming I'm saying your name correctly, but I do like to check my assumptions here.

So yeah, of course you are.

Excellent. Fabulous. All right. So Robert, while I make this bigger for people as we're going, Um, uh, tell us, like, just give me like a 30-second overview of like what you do and why, where the challenge is showing up for you today.

Well, um, uh, this all started with, uh, a presentation that I gave to my freshmen. I teach college and I wanted to set them up for better success in their classes and that kind of thing and these are— where I teach, there are a lot of first-generation college students, so they don't necessarily know what to expect, and they can be very intimidated by the new expectations of college. And so I wanted to give them a recipe for approaching classes and that kind of thing, and so I came up with that question that's on the screen here And, um, I'm not sure that that's perfect, but I'm not sure that that's also what I really want to— want your help on today.

Uh, okay.

Um, but you know, if you have something to say about that, that's cool.

I just— yeah, I mean, I think— good.

No, I just wanted to see if my— like, how my—

you want to check it?

Yeah, I want to check like mostly like my then rather than my if.

Yeah, yeah. So I— it's a really strong if, right? Like it's a really good strong if, right? I think that's— it is, um, you know, if I were to do anything to improve it, uh, you know, I would, you know, I would simplify it to that, right? Or what's the best way, right? Because sometimes, I mean, it also depends sometimes on how well you know your audience, Robert. And so for your audience, it may be perfectly fine to have the feel confident. But sometimes when you are speaking to an audience with whom you don't have a lot of experience, there is sometimes there's an unwillingness even in people's minds to admit to something that they might otherwise not feel comfortable sharing, right? So you're not telling people out loud, hey, who doesn't feel confident about— but it's one of those things where like our human drive is to— we always want to be seen as smart, capable, and good. And so, you know, so a question that kind of cuts the confidence out of the question but then ends up being something that, hey, I mean, kind of comes along with it. It's like, well, if I feel like I had a good answer to this, then I would be confident. Like, that's kind of where we're going there. Um, but you could also kind of optimize the question a little bit by saying, what's the best way for me to succeed in college? Or like, you know, how can I be sure I'll succeed, right? Or how can I feel sure I'll succeed? But what's important to understand is, but as soon as you add confidence or feel sure, that actually— I'm not a more like, I'm not a grammarian— that actually makes the confidence or the feeling sure the actual subject of the argument and not the succeeding, right? So when I go over to, to your answer, obsession drives bold experimentation, which is built on two elements of obsession and experimentation, that feels like that's not about confidence or feeling sure. That feels like that's about success, right? So that's a good test to go backwards to. Sometimes you go I really am answering a question here about succeeding and, and your point of view on what is necessary for somebody to, to succeed. And so I would, you know, since you're checking the answer, I'd say yes, thumbs up on the answer here with the caveat of what I said to Robert, which is I want you to smoosh these two together because right now you have a beautiful premise. Here, right? You have a great, um, you know, you're asserting that obsession drives bold experimentation, but that's not the answer to the question. Like, if it's a how question and you say obsession drives bold experimentation, do you see how the if-then doesn't work? If I want to succeed in college, then obsession drives bold experimentation. Like, we're like, doesn't compute. The easy fix of that is that you, again, you just smoosh these two things together. You can say experiment obsessively, right? Or you need obsessive experimentation. In other words, of the kind of— there's always one that's going to be a noun, right? And the other one is going to modify in some way. One is either going to modify the nature of it. So that's what I would say obsessive experimentation comes— experimentation is the core there, right? Um, actually, I think I've said the same thing twice. Um, experimental obsession— yeah, experimental obsession would be— obsessiveness would be the other one. Um, so experiment— see, this is the danger of like typing live. It's I can't promise I would have spelled like by hand live either any better, but okay. You see where I'm trying to go though, right? You've got one of these is going to be the noun and one of them is the modifier of it. And again, making wild assumptions about your idea, I am guessing that experimentation is the key here.

Yeah.

Right. Not obsession. That could go weird quick with College kids, love them. And yeah, all right, so again, like, once you talk about obsessive experimentation, you know, again, the other way to modify it is to— I'm just going to take that off so that we're not getting confused by it— the other way to modify it is to make the other word the verb, right? So yes, experimentation is necessary, but we're saying the, you know, the, you know, the— we can turn it into the thing that you do. Right. And now again, if we do that quick check, you know, you— I see like it's a slightly different interpretation, right? Um, okay. Another way to do it. So you could either say experiment obsessively. You could also say based on the kind of the, the tone of what was in what you had there before, You want— it's kind of obsession-driven experimentation. Do you see what I'm saying? To drive experimentation. And all of them work, but now you start to see like that's a— that at least makes sense as a— like a question-answer structure. And then what you can also say from that point is like, okay, not only does it make sense, but I could see why— and this is really important, here's the probability check— I could see why— I can start to see maybe why that would work. And that's the first and most important, like, test it has to pass. Um, it's the Bayesian probability of decision making. But, um, that's it, that's what's happening there, right? Because the first check is do I— it doesn't make sense. Like, does it— do I understand that you are actually giving an answer to my question that sounds like an answer to my automatic processing of my brain? And then, like, and then the, like, the analytic piece kicks in a little bit more aggressively and goes, probability? Okay, I— maybe I want a little bit more, right? Like, just to, just to lock it. And that's where the rest of the case comes in. So We've got a couple minutes, so let's just— doo doo doo doo doo.

OK.

So what we're doing here now— remember the kind of thing that I showed right at the beginning where we're saying we've got the if and the then. And now we need to shore up that claim. We need to shore up that bridge with the things that people already believe. And without going obsessively into this, as Jen behind the scenes knows that I can, um, we're trying to make a case for each of your two pieces independent of the other. What I mean is we want to make sure that that belief argues for why obsession first and foremost, um, and then separately why experimentation each independently are necessary for success in a way that somebody who, like, again, as soon as they hear it, they can go, I can see why that makes sense. Now, oftentimes on your first attempt here, and I see it here, the, the underlying warrant, which is what we're looking for here, is actually present, right? I mean, you're not saying it out loud, but it's pretty close to the surface. You've said you've learned far more from your obsessions than from any traditional class you've ever taken. Now, if we take that and we say, right, and right now you're saying, well, that's why we need to focus on obsessions for success. The kind of assumption that's sitting right underneath that is that, like, you're already successful, like you've already been successful with the things that you're most obsessed with. Right. So therefore, if we focus on your obsessions, that's going to be great. Right, uh, that's not necessarily your answer here, but do you see, like, that's what we're looking for? We're looking for what is the— what is the kind of applies in multiple contexts, like, thing about that we would agree is true about obsessions that tightly ties it to success. And generally, you already know more about your obsessions than anything else, right? You— or you could— again, this is your own point of view. Is it about knowledge? Is it about success? Is it about motivation? Is it Is it about like whatever? Like there's— and you're going to say, yes, it's all of that. This court case represents your distinctive point of view, Robert, so I can't tell you exactly what your internal justification is for that statement, but that's the, that's the next layer. So it's a little bit of what Safiq was saying of like, I need to go one layer deeper. I'm like, yeah, one layer deeper here. So get very close, but what we need to do that— so let's just pop over to the other side. We can— we get better at anything by trying what we can't do yet.

This is—

okay, so it's kind of what the immediate thing that pops into my mind as like— this one's much closer, by the way, um, because it's, it's very closer. It's much closer to, you know, practice makes perfect, right? Uh, that, you know, that, that, you know, we— the more times we do something, we— the more that— more we learn about it, right? Like the The only thing that I would say is that that doesn't speak to me about what I would usually guess to be part of experimentation, which is discovery, right? So again, so I think this, this— if I, if it weren't paired with obsession, I think this one would be fine. Again, I know they need to be independent of each other, but at the same time, like, the, the, the, the tone of the answer use your obsessions to drive experimentation, like, or experiment obsessively. Um, that doesn't quite tell me— like, do you see? It just doesn't— like, they don't quite match up yet. Um, and so again, it's already really strong. Like, we just tightened up that if question, we tightened up that then question— then answer by kind of really deciding of the two things which is the more important thing. Um, and then Again, make sure— just the next step here is to make sure that those pieces that you're using to support are as close as you can get to with it. How's that sound?

I'm just a little lost on the— Oh no!

Okay.

I'm not clear on what you were saying about how to go one level deeper on the obsession part.

Obsession part. What is true about— so I think that the heart of this, um, so I— this is— you've— all right, so one of the reasons why this is hard to do, uh, is— and it's hard to do quickly— is that what we are trying to spot here is an is either surface the slightly more implicit assumption that's underneath that. So one of the— let me get— let me take it to a, um, a lateral move, uh, and let's see if we say it. So if I say to someone, hey, you should— like, you, if you want to, um, you know, raise your revenue from sales, make more sales, if you want to make more sales, then focus on the over-50 market right now. That doesn't— you know, let's say that. And if someone said yes, but why? And they said because there's more of them, sitting under that data is an assumption. Like, it wasn't said, but the only thing that makes it work as evidence for that claim is if you also believe that the more people there are to sell to, the more likely you know, the higher number of likely sales you are to make. See what I say, saying that?

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so, so what you're saying is like I've given like a vivid image of the print bedrock belief but not the belief itself. And I— yeah, so I think in my core case that's actually on the screen right now, it has a phrasing of that that's not The example: we learn the most from the things that captivate us or obsess us.

Does that—

Yes, that would be perfect. Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you know, we're willing to learn anything about our obsessions, right? Like our, like our curiosity is infinite for the things that we're, we're obsessive about, right? I mean, that's, that's kind of one of the things that— Yes, precisely, Robert. Like, that's exactly it. And what a lovely way to put it. You put it— you gave a picture of, um, um, you gave a picture of the belief but not the underlying belief. And I think that, yeah, like I said, you were right on top of it. So that's exactly right. It's just that— and what we're trying to get to is something that, again, because we want— like, the, the hardest test is this is like, you— we want to think about as if this was their— your only chance to make the case was to say this one thing like this one belief, it's got to be something that like, A, makes they understand quickly, which is why the kind of proverbial type of language, axiomatic language, is very helpful. And second, that, that quick analytic check of can I, can I, can I immediately disprove that, right? Or do I agree? Like just kind of off the top that, yeah, I am infinitely curious about, you know, my obsessions. Um, again, that may not be where— what your actual point of view is, but— and so you can say, yeah, and if I'm infinitely curious, that carries along with it all these other kind of ideas. And, and like, it carries motivation with it, it carries willingness with it, it carries perseverance with it, it carries resilience with it. Like, you know, and it's one of those things that because you're anchoring on kind of this kind of this idea of you're linking obsession to— again, I'm just using this as an example— infinite curiosity. Like, someone's going, yes, that's right, because they're also saying, yeah, infinite curiosity. I can see why infinite curiosity is necessary for success in college because I don't want to get bored, I don't want to do whatever. Um, and from there you can start to explain it even further, all the ways that we just did, right? You're like, because, right, like, let's think about your obsessions. How much do you know about them? Like, do you ever get bored of them? You're like, yeah, eventually. Like, there's some obsessions that come in and out. And, you know, my son was a Taylor Swift fan like 2 years ago, and now no, right? But, um, but he hasn't forgotten any of it, right? Like, so I think that's exactly where we're trying to go. And I'd say just do— get— make sure on the other side of your— on your and, like, is that, you know, if you're establishing kind of curiosity or this kind of like infinite patience or infinite exploration with obsessions, you know, then, then, then I think we want to say, is experimentation about improvement or is experimentation about expansion in some way? Or some other thing, right? Because you've got a very specific point of view about what about experimentation is necessary for success at college. And that's what we're trying to surface.

Yeah. I was trying to get toward the kind of Thomas Edison thing where, you know, he's invented a thousand things that don't work. It's just that one thing that made the light bulb.

Right.

He's failed a bajillion times. And that's the kind of experimentation I was trying to try and do.

Yeah. Um, and what does that— why, why, uh, what's resonant for that about you? Like, what is the lesson from that that you would want your students to take away?

Well, I was trying to sort of get them to be obsessive about trying, trying things over and over until they figure out, you know, where the success is in that. Like, you have to try all the wrongs.

So, yeah, okay. So then, like, again, it may not be perfect for you, and I know we got to wrap up soon. I get so excited about this. Um, and also I just want to give people time back because of my technical issues at the front. Um, I mean, one of the ways you could just put it is like, learning is experimentation. Like, you know, you— experimentation is learning, learning is experimentation, full stop, right? Like, there's like, you can only learn by experimenting, right? And, and again, you see there's no obsession there. But if we say, if you want to succeed at college— now I'm going to the B Right? Because you're in, like, actually I go to experimentation first for whatever reason, that one feels more logically next. Um, learning is experimenting. So we've gotta experiment and you're like, okay, that's scary. We could fail, et cetera. We could like, oh, not like it, whatever. And then you could say, and right, we are infinitely curious about our obsessions.

Right?

So they're like— that's why, like, if we can— and that's why, like, if you pair that obsession with experimentation, if you obsessively experiment, you're always going to be great. Find ways to, like, find your obsessions in the— in every topic, right? Apply every topic to your obsessions. Try, try, try, try, try, because that is the only way you're going to learn. And success in college, full stop, comes from learning, right? So Let's hope, like some other form. But that's the— I think, again, Robert, you were super, super, super, super, super, super close. Um, just we're trying to get it as just even tighter so that it's just as fail-safe as possible without any additional data. Like, again, the only data that we are relying on here, um, to start is people's own knowledge and belief about the world. Right? And, and, and about themselves in the case of the obsessions. And so if we can kind of surface that, then, then we've got a really, really strong basis for you to add, like, tell stories and examples or whatever. Because anything else you talk about, you know, now you can say, well, so, so, like, how confident do you feel about your obsessions?

They're like 100%.

Like, so you say, start to say, so you see, not only is this going to make you more successful, but it's going to make you more successful because you're going to be learning more, you're going to be more confident, you're going to be more interested, you're going to be all this. Whereas if you had started with, how can I be more confident, interested, resilient, etc., etc., and curious at school? Like, I don't even know where you'd start, right? But by saying, hey, we're going to anchor success to these two things, and then this is the answer, you know, obsessively experiment, here's why, because, and then I think you've got— now you can— now you know at the heart of it is something that they could agree would be true. And then it's now— now your job is to move to the next phase of how people think about ideas and that make it feel true for them. So we've tried to start it as close to that as we could. But you've got to like, OK, what does that look like? We've got to say, how does that translate into real life from there? Helpful?

Yes, thank you so much.

You're welcome. Well, to Satvik and Robert both, thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us today. And for those of you who did or didn't survive tech things, but watch this later. Hopefully, Jen, you can— I don't know if we can edit out the initial failures. Who knows? But thank you all for joining. We will, you know, keep— sign up for the MDI newsletter. That's where we announce these. We also announce it on social, etc., etc., etc. Subscribe to our newsletter. Subscribe to all the things that you can because that's what we talk about. We talk about how people think about ideas so that you can talk about your ideas in a way they can't stop thinking about. So, uh, happy holidays if this is the time of year that you saw— celebrate them. If you're ambivalent about the holidays, you know, have a happy Friday. Um, and otherwise, we will see you next year. So thanks so much, everyone.

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