Monthly Message Design Office Hours

Ah, whoo lordy. Hello. For anyone who's super patient and waited 5, 6 minutes because we are still learning our way around here. So welcome, welcome. This is the Message Design Office Hours Live, and I am Tamsen Webster. I am the founder of the Message Design Institute, and we are a collection of people dedicated to helping people make changes faster. And more ethically at the same time. The goal of these office hours are to, well, give you a chance to come in with your requests and all of that. We do have somebody who's requested some of their work today, so it's going to be Kate Donovan coming in just a bit. But I also know that we had— I had— it's all on me— publicized a little bit of a themed topic to start for anybody who is interested in paying attention or viewing. So if you're viewing this later, hey, lovely to see you. Um, so I think the topic that I, that I promoted today was that we would talk about like what academics can teach you about being a true thought leader. Um, because as you may or may not know, I, at the age of 50, decided to put myself back in a doctoral program. Well, in a doctoral program for the first time, back to school last year. And after spending a good 25 years before that working in and amongst thought leaders, one of the things that struck me the most was how very differently academia views thought leaders and actually what is required from an academic perspective to be considered, um, to— for your work to be considered new and groundbreaking and all of that. And so I couldn't help but notice that there are certain lessons, uh, that academia can teach us as, uh, folks, uh, as, as potential thought leaders, etc., that can be helpful. And one of the most important things, I think, is understanding this concept that's particularly true at the doctoral level about creating new knowledge. Um, now full credit to my friend, uh, and fellow alumna of Teachers College Columbia, Ruth Gotian, Dr. Ruth Gotian, who was one of the first people who ever said that to me, uh, when I was talking with her and asking her about her midlife decision to go back to school to get her doctorate. Um, and the minute she said that idea about creating new knowledge, I was like, yes, that's I want to do. But that has a very specific meaning in academia. And again, I think that there is utility in having those of us who want to be known for our thinking and our work, that we can learn. So building on that, one of the things that I want to introduce is that I had the— related to that, I had the opportunity to see Dr. Amy Edmondson. Yes, the Amy Edmondson of Psychological Safety, The Right Kind of Wrong, etc. I had the opportunity to see her present twice within the span of 2 weeks. The first time was at the Columbia Coaching Conference at Teachers College at Columbia, and the second time was at Thinkers50 in London. And one of the things that she presented, or she was asked to present in London, was this idea of research and how research is used. And so one of the things that she did and presented, and I wanted to show you as well, was talk about research or how she approaches and how she got involved in the work that she did. And again, I think this is a useful way for those of us who are— can really want to be known for our thought process to think about it. So the first thing that she did was, ooh, Look, this is my first time experimenting with it. Um, I, I— does it— is that gonna— nope, I don't want to chat. I want to turn that into a— that was exciting. Does anybody know how to make that a— I don't know. Okay, here we go. We're gonna do this this way. She started with a triangle. Hey. Um, and one of the first things that she, that she talked about with this triangle, um, was she had actually, uh, set it up, um with 3 things, and the first one was kind of what she referred to as a research question. And I think first and foremost, this is a really important thing for speakers, authors, thought leaders, aspirational thought leaders, academics, researchers, etc. I mean, academics know this already, but to start from here, and a research question is, is is an open question about— typically is the way that Amy Edmondson talked about it— as a, a problem of practice, something that you are seeing again and again in the world and you don't seem to see a good answer for. So for instance, if I'm talking about the work that we do at the Message Design Institute, we are all about how do we accelerate the understanding and adoption of new ideas. So fundamentally, any research question that I or we are working on comes back to that. Now, one of the benefits of talking about research questions and starting there is that it makes sure that you are not presenting only a solution. You're making sure that there really is an open question that people actively and knowingly want an answer to. So this isn't about like, oh, I've got a great idea, let me go find something that matches it. It is about starting from that perspective of saying, huh, it seems like people are struggling with X. From there, she talked about saying, okay, then you go out into the field. And when you're talking about going out into the field, it's talking about all sorts of different people and what is it they're trying to talk about and think about and do, and really, um, look at what is it that people have, uh, experienced, what are people on all sides of this experiencing, talking about. And for her, it was really important to collaborate across fields. Now, one of the things that's very interesting, and I think that from a perspective of, again, potential thought leaders, or as I'm going to be talking about in a couple weeks here, thinking leaders, what's important in the center, and I would submit that this is what the non-academic folks miss the most, is that there is this In the centre is what academics know as a literature review. But this is where the idea is that you are going and researching what other people have already said and what they have already proposed about your research question. I will tell you that for all the folks that I work with, this is the thing that I think most people skip. I think this is critical, critical, critical, critical, critical. It is like no academic paper— you cannot even start talking about your stuff until you have— until you answer and address what else has already been said or done about your question. Now, why is this important for you as a thinker or whatever? Because a lot of times people think they have a new thought And they do not. And so one of the important things is to understand, A, what else has already been out there. B, if you do find something out there that is similar to what you are thinking, how is what you are doing different from that? How do you disagree? How can you add to it? How can you apply it? If somebody has taken something but they only looked at it over here, could you possibly move it over here? Now, counter to popular belief, it is not a bad thing to discover that somebody else has explored a similar question, or even if they have come up with an answer already. That is actually a good thing because it means now you can build on what they have done and you are A) not recreating the wheel and B) not going out in the marketplace as if you are the first person to discover something, which let me tell you is the fastest way to get real academics to look at you with a side eye. So anyway, this is what I wanted to just give a kind of a quick overview of thinking about that the very first piece of what we're talking about anytime when we're thinking about a message, when we're thinking about new thoughts, when we're thinking about thought leadership, is to really say, what is that question that we are interested in, that you are interested in? Then go out and see how is it being experienced in the field. Figure out how you can work with people across the different areas and departments and disciplines. And critically, if you do nothing else, Go and look and see what else has been done, what else has been said, what else has been discovered about this question and about the answers to it. And then you can start to set yourself apart. Okay, so with all of that said, I think we've given people enough time to join in. I am delighted to bring in, uh, a good friend, Ms. Kate Donovan. Hello, Ms. Kate Donovan.

Do you know, I love that, but you always have to look like you have to get closer to find out where the microphone thing is to unmute yourself. I had to like— the screen did not actually get that much closer to me, but I could see it better when I did that.

Well, that's good. I love that. Um, so Ms. Donovan, do tell me what brought you to us today at office hours. What are you hoping to, uh, address, have answered, etc., etc.? What's going on?

So I think what's really interesting is that, um, I do come at my work from a place of research, and I love literature review more than any other part of the process. It's my favorite part of the process.

It's my favorite. I know you're my people, like, and anybody who's like truly like true, like, like heart of heart, like MDI people are people who are like, let me do the literature review.

Yeah, like, I love it. Yeah. And so I've been doing the literature review on burnout since 2016. Yeah, and at that time there was a lot less. And, um, then the pandemic happened, and just before the pandemic the World Health Organization adopted a clear definition of burnout, which gave people a wider door from which to do research, because now at least we have an agreed-upon definition, and now we can, we can build on that and do something wider. And so I've been talking about this for almost 10 years, I still am lacking knowledge because it— you cannot— it's—

it—

the deeper you go, the, the wider it gets. To me, it's like the more I know, the less I know. Yeah.

Um, and the mark of a true thinker, by the way.

Yeah. I just feel like the more I learned, it just keeps getting worse. Um, and I just keep having more questions. And right now I'm writing another book, and initially the book was based on this idea of the web of causation of burnout. So the web of causation is an epidemiological idea from the 1960s. It was initially used to talk about diabetes and to say like, well, it's— you're not getting diabetes type 2 just because you eat too much sugar. Like, if you live— if you have— there are socioeconomic factors and there are social determinants of health, and you have access to grocery stores or you don't, you have access to fresh fruit or you don't, you had— you grew up in a household where parents had enough time to cook or you didn't, and all of these things together create a web that allows diabetes type 2 to come up. And, you know, genetics is part of it, and all— there's all sorts of different pieces to it. So I've created what I believe to be the web of causation of burnout.

Nice. Okay, cool.

Which is— it keeps getting bigger, of course, because everything can affect it, from, you know, generational trauma to yesterday's lunch. Yes. And what I'm— I wrote the first 30% of the book and then started over because, because my first book was to individuals. It was about my experience with burnout, what I found out about it, what I— the gaps that I saw in the research at that time, right? But I wrote that in 2018.

Yeah.

Um, so now as I started writing, I found myself automatically again writing to the individual. But this book is not to the individual. This book is to the individual within the organization, the leader within the organization. And individuals should read it and should read it as well because both sides need to understand this, but that's not the target. So I had to start again. And where I'm— I don't want to take people so far down into the weeds that I lose them.

Okay.

And what I want to open up is a sort of broadening of the definition that we've been given so far. The definition of burnout says it's an occupational hazard and not a diagnosis. And as my background, just for everybody that doesn't know, I was an acupuncturist. Well, I am an acupuncturist. I've been an acupuncturist for 18 years. And so I come at most things from the perspective of treatment, right? Like what's actually breaking down and how do we treat it? Yep. And I just lost my train of thought.

Well, let me ask you this question. What is— so as you probably know, and as anybody who's familiar with MDI knows and my work knows, I always like to know what is like from the question. So Kate, what's the big question that you are struggling to answer right now regarding this book, regarding how you're writing it? Like, what is the one question that if I could wave a magic wand and answer that for you today, what would that be? I'm not saying I can, but I just want to know, like, where are we? Where, what are we, what are we trying to focus on here?

I think the big question is Can culture buffer vulnerability?

Okay, but what's the question for you? Like, what's your message design question today?

So my message design question today— all right, I've read all of your books, I should be able to do this, but it's also— it's always harder when it's you.

Are you hoping to come here today and get clarity on— that's another way to think about it.

Yeah, one of the things was whether or not I can get this across. Like, will this web of causation be enough of a message for people, and can I design it in a way that is more positive than a web of causation? Like, I feel like a lot of burnout stuff ends up talking about all the crap.

Yes. Okay. So part one of that, if I hear or heard you correct— so part two was, can you talk about it more positively? And part one was, is that a message that's big enough for a book? Yeah, yeah.

Oh, is— and is there a solution in there that I can then bring into companies? I've like—

I, I'm already doing it sort of, but it feels like Yeah, so, okay, so one of the ways to think about this, uh, and I'm gonna go back and put some of this on stage, is one of the ways to think about it, and this is the way that I often think about it, you've seen me present with like some version of this high color before, right, is that there's always, there's always a before, there's always an if and then, right? And so the, the if is over here and the then is here, right? And the if generally represents a question that the audience, in this case your reader or your future clients, and your future clients would have. And the then is the answer that you, Kate, are there to give, right? Said another way, we can look at it this way. I like to think of it as like if-then, and what we're trying to get to here is your core claim, or really your prime position, your prime point of view. Um, it's the position you take on how an approach leads to an outcome. It can be on your explanation of something. And so this is where I would want to push you a little bit, because if you believe you've come up with the web of causation for burnout, to me, that sounds like a bucket, right? It doesn't sound like one of the— it doesn't yet sound— and I'm not saying that it isn't there, but I'm not yet hearing the— if we want to understand X, right, or if we want to prevent, or if we want better tools for, or something like that in regards to burnout, then, right, then there's again, a web of causation is probably something in there, but it doesn't end with understand that there is a web of causation. It would, I think, need to go one step further and then say like, there's something that the web of causation enables that would allow you to say, okay, if we want to do this, then we need to do that. The kind of context you have to understand is the web of causation in between. Right.

Right.

So You know, I'm seeing it in my head as, you know, we've got the web of causation here. Like, it isn't the answer to something, but it should— like, the fact that you think the web of causation of burnout, the fact that it exists, should present an opportunity for an answer that it feels like you don't feel that we have had so far. Is that accurate?

Yes.

So I think, again, the very first place is to start back over here on the, on the if. Like, what is the— like, and so this is how you lift kind of a discovery, a, um, kind of your mapping of the context and all of this. This is how you lift it to become a message that is big enough. The key comes into answering a question that's big enough for us to do this. Um, I'm trying to remember where it was that I heard this because I love to give credit. But it's the idea of— and it might have actually been— oh, I don't remember where it was. It will come to me. This idea of kind of lifting something from a business-level problem to a humanity-level problem is really the key in getting something nice and big.

I think it's Kate O'Neill.

That was Kate O'Neill. And it was the NSA New York.

It was our meeting.

Yeah, that was her.

That was.

See, this is why our folks should join the National Speakers Association, particularly the New York chapter, and follow Ms. Kate O'Neill at koinsights.com. Thank you. That's exactly right. She was talking about starting at that business-level problem that can be raised to humanity-level problem. And then, oh my gosh, I'm so glad this was you. And then kind of bringing that and then bringing it back down again. The second thing I would add into just your thinking about this Kate, is that, uh, you know, referring, uh, to another, you know, friend of MDI, um, the amazing Shelley Dolly, who, uh, now is in her own private practice, but she had been, um, Tom Peters's chief of staff for like 20 years. And one of the things that she is clear on, and I, and I was like, ah, when she said it, I was like, oh, of course. She, she said, you know, if you think about the, the books that really have changed the way people think, even when they're coming from academics, they are written to the individual, right? They are written to the individual. They're written to the individual leader, or they're written to the individual, but they're not like, la la la la, here's everything about everything, right? I mean, that's a textbook. And if we're trying to write a book that's going to change how people think so we can change that business-level problem and the humanity-level problem, it needs to be written to a person. So again, I'm wondering how much of your individual level stuff actually has to be scrapped. But I don't, I don't know. Yeah. All of that to say, what is it that you believe, like, when it comes into play now that, um, let's first and foremost, I like to start from that question because it keeps us out of the trap of like, I've got an answer now, let me go find the question. I'm curious, like, what got you looking into the web of causation and intrigued in this in the first place? Like, what problem were you trying to solve? What question were you trying to answer? Because that often is a great place to start here.

Yeah, so I was reading— when I was doing a lit review, basically, and I was trying to understand where my own burnout came from. And all of the research at the time, most of the research was done from a socio— socio-psych perspective. Yeah. Um, and so there's the anything that has to do with biology and burnout is all under research from chronic stress. It's not research with burnout, which is interesting because that's what chronic stress brings you to. So, so that I found interesting. And I was trying to figure out, like, when I was reading through the socio-psych, um, information, it basically says— and this is why the definition of burnout was written the way it's written— it basically says that most of it is the organization's fault. That burnout comes from— okay, the workplace, and, and it's because of leadership, and it's because of this, and it's because of that. And there are these 6 factors that they have created and studied over and over again that they know are important when it comes to burnout in the workplace. And I looked at that and I thought, well, first of all, I worked for myself.

Yeah.

So why would I create that workplace that, that had those issues? Second, I have now spoken to thousands and thousands and thousands of people that have gone through burnout, and I don't— but I think of all of those people, I have two that said that my burnout was absolutely because of my boss, and everyone else has said part of it was my workplace or my life— I'm a caregiver, I'm this— and the rest of it was like my own internal bullshit. Excuse my French.

Right.

So people that go through burnout seem to understand that there's more than one component to it.

Okay. So let's back up even further. So, so one of the things that I've realized with all of this is that one of the, one of the, one of the reasons why message design around these big, beautiful, particularly well-researched, thoroughly understood ideas are at least ever-expanding ideas is, is that your, your concept of this is, you know, the only way I can describe it is multi-dimensional, right? You've got this big beautiful cloud of an idea and it's got all of these exten— and like you could spend hours, years, days, right, in different pieces and parts, and you're constantly expanding it, you're constantly building out how all of these things interconnect, etc. And so in your mind, again, even if you don't think of it that way, but in your mind it is This dimensionless and simultaneously multidimensional thing. Fair? Okay.

Yes.

The issue is, is that the minute we start to talk about it or write about it is that language is linear. You literally cannot go, right?

Well, the English language is linear.

Well, yes, but even if you're speaking it. Yes, I know. All right, fine. Details. But this is why I love you, Kate. The— we can still only get one word out at a time, right? Or one pictograph out at a time, right? Like, it's still— whether it's left to right or right to left, we can only do so much, right? And yes, like, the, the Eastern languages tend to be a bit more represent— representative, but there still is the information, particularly when we're reliant on language, is we have to get this big multi-dimensional thing essentially into two dimensions, right? We have to get it like the big beautiful shape shape that's boundless into, like, a line.

Yeah.

And so when it comes to figuring out how do we get that across to other people, we really have to go and start to think about it, even if it's not how you typically think about it, in more of a linear fashion. So what I was hearing you saying was saying, okay, I wanted to understand where burnout comes from. And what I'm trying to do is kind of work back on on when we're— as soon as we're starting to think about linear things, we can start to think about causality and we can continue to kind of move into that if-then back and forth. And we can start to reverse engineer back to what is the question, right? Because there is something here where you said to yourself, I'm going to suggest, that if we understand where burnout comes from, then what? Then we can prevent it, then we can treat it. Like, what was your— what would— how would you, as best as you can reconstruct, because again, you may not remember it exactly, like, what were you hoping— remember, because your, your thinking didn't start with like, I wonder where burnout comes from, right? Yeah, I mean, it, it may, but there's probably another motivation. And my thought is, if we can figure out what your if-then was with that question, if we can understand what burnout comes from, then we can know X. I'm wondering, maybe that's the big question, right? Because yeah, it would have to pass through that understanding in order to get to your answer. Do you see what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So what— where would you think again? We, you know, it's just—

so for me, like, for me, I was like, if I can understand where my burnout came from, then I can figure out how to manage it.

OK. So, so even that. So and sometimes we have to do it even more, right? So you could say, if I could figure out how to manage burnout, then what? Right. Like, so again, we can start to kind of follow those things. If we could figure that out, then you start to feel like you're getting to some nice big unlock goals and stuff. That's not where I suggest starting a message, by the way. I think that this— that question of figuring out how to manage burnout is a pretty good one, right? So if, right, we, uh, you know, if we want to know— and that's— sorry, I'm still getting used to all this. Um, where is my— there it is. If, you know, if we want better approaches, like, um, or if we wanted better approaches to managing burnout, or even better You know, I would say, like, again, I like to frame this as a how question for us. Like, if we want to know how to manage burnout better, that would be even better. So let me, um, um, so the implied here is if we want, uh, to know how to manage burnout better, right? Then you see, like, then it does— it has to go through the path of understanding where it comes from, right? It's gonna— it is going to go through the web of causation of burnout. Um, then, I mean, so one of the things is when— then we have to understand where it comes from. Great. But then it's like, once we understand where it comes from, then what? Like, that's where, like, this next piece would come in for you. So do you have a sense of— now that you've, that you've outlined your web of causation of burnout, do you have thoughts on new insights about what managing burnout better looks like?

Yes, thousands of them.

Okay. All right. So because that's where— I mean, that's where, um, So this is where we start to see, uh, start where we start to do it from this way. If, uh, to manage burnout better, right, then— so the key is we want to figure out like what is it that you feel. Okay, we're not going to solve all of this today, but the, the, the The way I would have you start to think about it, Kate, is the answer is not going to— it would not be, in my opinion, just understand the web of causation of burnout. That to me would undersell your idea because it would also not give people necessarily a very clear idea about where to go next with that.

Yeah, I think what the thing that I'm trying to get across as the result is like, I think, because I think one of the problems is that the definition that we've been given so far says it's a workplace's obligation, and it's not, because that's not what the lived experience of thousands of people say. So if we can, if we want to know how to manage burnout better and we understand the web of causation, then we know what the workplace is responsible for and what the individual is responsible for for, and we can like treat it properly instead of blaming one side or the other.

Okay, what is treating it properly mean to you based on your work and your research?

Treating it properly— the actions are different depending on the person, so there's a, there's like a personalization aspect in there, but treating it properly means not ignoring it means taking it seriously. It means, um, recovering from it.

Okay, so what I would say is the— what I'm hearing here is that the work to do here is, first of all, is to get more clarity around— like, again, it all comes back down to this question. Because what I've also heard from you today is that it is, it's about, yes, managing burnout. But you want this to be— I heard you, I believe I heard you say essentially that you want this to be written for leaders and organizations. Is that correct? Yes. So one of the things to the side is the key Specificity is always the key to, to, to, to getting a really strong message. And, and the, the trick of it is, is not being specific about, you know, in the sense of putting your knowledge into their question. It's about ensuring that we're starting that kind of if-then chain of questions as close as is realistically possible to where your work actually starts. In all of this. And what I mean by that is— I'm not even sure if this is going to make it clear— but the thing is, is that, you know, there's people who have, you know, this kind of broad question of, let's say, you know, they probably want some employee— you know, they want, like, you know, they want retention, or they want, like, culture, or all of this stuff, right? And they understand that blocking that, right, is some kind of burnout, and blocking that is managing burnout. But blocking that is, again, is it individuals? Is it leaders, et cetera?

I think the blocking it there is blame.

Well, but they're not looking at it from the perspective of blame. And that's also what's really clear here. Like, you have the knowledge that people are blaming, but the folks that are most likely, so again, part of my, not again, haven't said it yet. Part of my, and the philosophy of what we're doing at the, at the Message Design Institute is saying the strongest and easiest case to make is for, is, is based on something that somebody already agrees that they want an answer, like a question they already agree they want an answer to. And, and the answer, right, they— and nobody wants an answer where they're to blame. Do you see what I'm saying?

So yeah, yeah, well, and I think like eliminating the blame is part of the web of causation, is saying like we don't—

which is great, okay, but it's not useful. Yeah, so what we're still trying to figure out is, and one of the ways that I, I sometimes work on this when I'm working on it with, with clients, is to say is to take what I was just showing there and say— and again, this is from the audience point of view, okay? That's super important. Like, ah, all right, oops, I just erased it, didn't even know. Okay, so we're gonna do the audience point of view, right? And then, um, I'm actually doing this kind of like backwards, actually. So I'm gonna change this in the middle. So, um, okay, so I know this sounds a little weird that I'm doing it this way. We're gonna do outcome here and we're gonna do, um, the approach over here. Okay, so What I'm hearing is, okay, so if somebody is already saying, like, if they're already— what I'm hearing you say is the minimum viable question or version of the question you're willing to answer is somebody who is already asking, how can I, you know, help my people manage burnout? Yeah, right, right. And, and, and You may have— so, and one of the things to think about is like, you know, again, is it— are you willing to go a little bit further away? Are they willing to say, how can we, you know, well, I would say prevent burnout is actually even more, more aware, right?

So, but here's the thing, can we— we can go there, but I think that might not— I'm not sure that that would be super helpful because I don't think that burnout is most of the time preventable.

From a normal perspective, which is great. Okay, so then, but you see, but if we're, if we're framing this as a question of like, how can we, how can I help my team? How can I, what can I do as a leader to help manage burnout, my own and others, right? Like, that would be a way to frame that question of saying my book is for leaders who want to know how to manage burnout, like in their, in their organizations, in their teams, within themselves.

Right?

Because by saying, how can I as a leader, right, by using that language, you're already speaking to people who, like, A, leaders, B, leaders who already have this question, and, and C, am I in C, who actually care enough about their people that they want to know how to do that. Do you see? Which means that you don't have to spend much of the meat of your book convincing people that they should do that, that they should care about that. Right. You're starting it at people who already care. Now, the next alternative, and then we're going to have to wrap up as much as I want to dive into this. And hello, Melissa Boggs, how are you? So the next thing is now some folks, some of these leaders who have this question have been around the block long enough and they are already interested in what can I do as a leader to manage the burnout in my organization and my team? And they may be aware of some obstacle that you are also aware of that's getting in the way. So that could be like, you could also start it a little bit closer to where you are if you've said, hey, how can I manage the contributors to burnout, right? Like, or again, I don't know how you would frame it, but that next level would be somebody who understands that it isn't— already understands that it isn't just on the person. Right.

Yeah. Well, and I think that the next obstacle becomes the question of, from, from the audience perspective, from a leadership perspective, is how much of this is actually my responsibility? Like, I don't know how much I'm so like, where, how far should I go? Where's the line?

Yeah, I mean, to me that's included in the question, what can I do as a leader?

Okay.

Right? Like, so to me, if that's where you still are, where that's a question, because like, in order to really answer that question, they're going to have to understand things like where's the line and what are the contributors to it, etc. My question is like, let's say that they did understand that it's not just on the person, that there is, you know, that there are certain things they can do and certain things they can't do. Again, if that person's saying, what can I do as a leader to help my folks manage burnout? Like, what's the What's the next big thing that you feel like people would have to tackle? Again, I'm just trying to push to see if there's benefit in you starting even more advanced, even more experienced, aware here, but maybe not. Right? So I'm just kind of curious, like, what's the next step?

I think— well, and this is where I think the web of causation comes in, because you can't actually help people manage burnout unless you truly understand the different components that allow it to arise.

Okay, um, so again, so now it's not manage burnout, it's manage the, you know, uh, factors that contribute to burnout, right? Do you see how that's a different thing? Like, that's a, that's a slightly more aware person where they're Like this is awareness increases negative, positive here, not negative, lower, higher. Now, instead of just managing what can I do as a leader to manage burnout, it's what can I do as a leader to manage the factors that are contributing to burnout in my team and myself and my organization? Right. That's somebody who's already clear on that. There's multiple factors. Right. And then if they've got that awareness, then there's folks that are now on the, on the on the super edge of what you're starting to figure out about what that looks like. But from what I'm hearing you say, that this is such a new perspective on it— yay— that it's, it may not even be likely that people are, are here. They may not even be likely that there's multiple factors that they have to manage, correct?

Yeah. Okay, well, then multiple factors that they can't manage because it's not on them.

Okay, perfect. So one of the things I often say here is that a lot of times this question, because it's the audience question, it's the against this question is that it may sound like the wrong question to you. Right? Because what this is saying is, what I would suggest then that your book is covering, the major arc of the book is basically going, this is the major arc of the book right here. That someone saying, what can I do as a leader to manage burnout? To the realization that, ah, actually what I need to do is say, what can I do as a leader to manage the fact factors that contribute to burnout, or at least, you know, what can I do with what I can— what is controllable by me, right? And then you've got this section of the book, right, that's saying, okay, this is what you can control, this is what you can't, this is what you're responsible for, this is what you're not, this is what the other person's responsible, this is what they're not, and here's what that looks like. You see what I'm saying? So the arc is to get them from this question to this question and then give them the give them some tools of that approach.

Yeah.

So when it comes back to this big question of the if-then, if I— if the question is, how can I, um, want to know how can I as a leader, as a leader, manage burnout, right? Then it's going to be something like Again, where— this is where the work comes in. It's going to be something about like the— right, so I hear that causation is one of those pieces, and I'm trying to figure out what the other one is, right? So again, I, I believe that the strongest, most distinctively defensive— distinctive and defensible ideas and points of view have two components to them. And one is kind of this multitude of causation, right? So one of them is going to be captured in the web of causation. But there's going to be something about what are we doing in that, within that? Again, it's not just manage because manage is already here. So it can't also be on the other side. So I'm curious as to, for you, what that other piece would be. But Let me pause here because let me sum up with what we've come up with so far. Number 1, I would hope that this gives you a little bit more clarity about what that process is about figuring out, like, where is it that we're trying to start this question, testing it to say, OK, the next step from where, you know, how can I as a leader manage burnout? The next most aware question would be, how can I manage the— as a leader, manage all the factors that contribute to burnout? Or so that we can manage burnout better. And say, OK, because there aren't enough people asking that second version of the question, that's the question we need to use the book to get people to. Or that's the question that you're— that's the big shift that you are asking people to make, let's say, in a keynote or whatever. And so from here, it's basically saying, OK, then how do you sum up the approach in a way that isn't, it's these 15 steps. It is something fairly straightforward.

Right.

Again, and that's where kind of when I've talked in the past about things like, that's what I refer to as the core strategy, right? Or your kind of prime strategy here is basically what is that modified noun that says, if you want to, as a leader, manage burnout better, then you need to manage the Again, it's not just causes of burnout because that's not enough, right? It's the something, like, I'm wondering if there's the, if it's something that speaks to the connections, right? The causal connections, right? So that, again, it's alliterative, but whatever. But that's the first thing that I would say is like, OK, the key to managing burnout, for a leader to manage burnout, is to manage the connected causes. Right now, A, that has now— you can name that a web of causation. But B, it also immediately tells people, A, I can only manage certain things, the connected ones, and B, what are those? And so that's where you would start to go with that and start to build it out from there.

OK.

Helpful.

On the way. OK. On the way.

Yeah. So I mean, I think that what you've got here is a very classic challenge, right? To kind of expand this out to everybody else, which is again a big beautiful idea. And you have established a new way of understanding what's going on, right? And the, the temptation is to say that it's the understanding that's the idea.

Right.

It is, it is part of it, right? That when we're talking about leading thought and when and leading how people think about things, it is— I'm of the opinion it's not just thoughts for thought's sake, it's thoughts that lead to action. We're trying to figure out what is that link, right? And so understanding that however beautiful and deep and insightful and aha that new understanding is, It's only, let's say, two-thirds of the way there because you've got to then figure out how to leverage that new understanding in a way that people can intuitively grasp quickly, right? And then as kind of like as the portable container of all of the detail and all the nuance, because that's the only way you're going to get that big beautiful idea out is kind of like forgive the metaphor, you're going to give them a piece of the thread, right? And they're going to pull it and pull it and pull it, and they're going to pull it through their own lens of understanding and agreement until they've pulled as much as they need to kind of like knit their own answer to that question. Yeah. And, and that's the key, is that we just have to kind of feed it in the most logically linear way as possible, because that's how language, whether written or spoken, and understanding works. So we kind of have to continually find that if-then, if-then, if-then, if-then to say, what is that? What is that string of things and in what order? And it really helps to understand the starting point, kind of like a GPS overview map, the starting point. Great. We're starting from— we're starting with the people who already are leaders who want to know how to manage burnout. And then the endpoint pretty much is leveraging, you know, managing these connected causes in some way. Right? And that is that portable— again, that my favorite definition of strategy is a framework for decision-making. And we want to give somebody that, that little, that very easy thing to remember, like so that in the moment of like, oh my gosh, I've got this burned-out employee in front of me, they'll say to themselves, Right. Kate Donovan said the connected causes. And what do I remember those are? What do I remember I can do with that? Because they're not going to remember in the moment 5 steps, a 7-step framework or whatever. They're going to remember a short phrase.

Yeah.

So that's what we're trying to get to. And I think you've got— I mean, obviously you do because you've got the work there. But it's sometimes it's about clearing all the other stuff away and saying if we pull it all the way up, Right? What is, what is the clearest way to be able to show somebody else the same path?

Got it.

Cool. Thanks for coming on today.

Thanks for having me.

You're welcome. So we're gonna return you to your days. Thank you all for joining, those of you who did. Again, if you're watching later, please come on. If you wanna know more about this particular approach, this is what we do here at the Message Design Institute. You can find out more at messagedesigninstitute.com. Institute.com. And if you want to get started crafting your own if-then and the case that supports it, you can always go to getthehandout.com for a completely ungated— actually ungated— worksheet to help you get started on everything else. In the meantime, thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next month.