Season 1, Episode 12, Part 1: Jim Ridl - Jazz Pianist and Composer

You're listening to The Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.

Welcome back to another episode of The Piano Pod. I am Clara Zhang.

I'm Yukimi Song.

And I am Eric Hunter.

Happy April and a happy Jazz Appreciation Month, fondly known as JAM, everyone. And do you know, JEM was created by John Edward Hasse, curator of the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History, in 2001 to recognize and celebrate the extraordinary heritage and history of jazz for the entire month of April. JEM is intended to stimulate and encourage people of all ages to learn and listen to jazz music. And today we are so excited to be interviewing world-class jazz pianist, composer, recording artist, educator, and my dear friend Jim Riddle to celebrate Jim. Welcome, Jim!

Hey, thank you so much.

My pleasure, my pleasure to be here.

Thank you so much for being on the show, Jim. This is a long time coming, and we have been friends for so many years, and I'm so glad that we have this opportunity to do this interview professionally. And I just want to introduce a little bit of Jim before we officially start. Jim is a busy performing artist based in New York City, performing in major venues such as Blue Note in New York City, Japan, Italy, Jazz Standard, Birdland, and Carnegie Hall. He regularly performs in festivals in America, Europe, Japan, and South America and has toured all around the world. All right, so I, I know we— you have accomplished so, so much in your career, Jim, and, um, but now we get into all these questions we are so desperate that we want to ask, you know. So, you know, I teach a lot of little kids, and, uh, I would like to know, you know, um, in the very, very beginning, I'm curious, when did you decide to become a jazz musician? Was that an instinct in childhood, or you just woke up one day, it's like, I'm going to be a jazz guy?

What is it like? Yeah, it's a very good question. When I was, I don't know, like 8 or 10 or something in that age period, I think it was through a few recordings that my father had, my brother had.

Oh, wow.

But not very much. I mean, I was listening to pop radio and things that My older siblings were listening to pop and rock, and there was a few jazz recordings. I think André Previn, the great conductor, pianist, but he was also a fantastic jazz pianist, had a recording by him. Anyway, I was interested in music, and I was playing by ear, no real study.

So you have perfect pitch, I see.

No, no, I—

Oh, wow.

I wish I did, but just, you know, kind of when you imitate and you copy something that you hear. So I was interested in music from when I was a little kid, and I was inspired by my oldest brother who composed a piece for his concert band in high school. And so I was like mesmerized by what he did. And then, uh, so I continued just playing, and I did take some lessons at my— from, uh, Sister Rebecca at the parochial school, and I quit after a couple of years. My father wasn't very happy, but I kept playing. So anyway, it leads to, uh, I became more and more interested in jazz as an early teenager, and then It's amazing what teachers do because I grew up in Dickinson, North Dakota, a very small rural town. Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And my father had heard this pianist play with a guitar player at this local restaurant bar. And he really loved what they played. And so he asked— his name is Keith Traquair. And he asked Keith, he said, hey, my son is interested in jazz. Would you be willing to teach him? And he said, "Well, sure." And so we set up a lesson and I was 15 years old. So when I first heard him play, I go, "That's how I want to play. That's what I want to do." It was an immediate moment in that way. I mean, there was music before that, and then that changed my life. And I studied with him and he turned me on to Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Bill Evans, Miles Davis, et cetera. Stride players, ragtime, country music. And so it started me from there. That was my path all these years later. It'll be my whole life.

Right.

Yeah. So the influence of this teacher, Keith, and we're still in contact. He's a fantastic musician, and he just retired. He taught like high school band and stuff for concert band, etc., for many, many years. But it's great. We're still in contact.

That is just so amazing, you know, especially for the younger students. I think that, you know, their child— our childhood teachers really sometimes mean so much, you know.

Yes.

Yeah.

It cuts us into a place that we, you know, we just have that imagination. And also, when you mentioned you were studying at a sister, uh, was, was that— what do you mean sister?

Um, it's, uh, it was a Catholic grade school.

Okay, so, so that's really cool. Even the Catholic nun, they are teaching jazz? Is that—

oh, well, no, this wasn't jazz.

I mean, I see.

Yeah, no, it was no jazz. It was just fundamental piano.

I got it.

You know, so yeah.

And well, they're still cool for teaching piano.

Yes, of course.

Yeah.

Right.

So wow, that is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I had no idea. I didn't know, you know, but I know we all start somewhere. And yeah, so we have so many questions, but I just have—

Yes.

Can I ask a question?

Sure. Go ahead.

So, Jim, I'm curious because the story of how you started out, seems to me kind of familiar. I feel like a lot of jazz pianists start in the same way where they get kind of traditional piano lessons from a teacher, and then they might lose interest a little bit and go off on their own for a while because for whatever reasons— I don't want to put words in your mouth or anything— but I feel like oftentimes it's because they are not allowed to express themselves creatively, or they haven't found the sound that they're looking for. And then, um, and then 15, you know, you're already a teenager, and that was kind of like your aha moment. And I'm just wondering, is there anything easier? Like, it seems like you had to kind of wander for a while. Actually, this was the case with Mike Grande also, who was on our show, and he's a rock musician, but it took him until he was about that age to find somebody that really clicked with him. Like, is it— can we teach younger kids jazz from like an earlier age so they don't— or is it just by definition going to be this kind of wandering path before you get into it?

Well, it's a good question. I think it's very different now than when I was 15, which is many, many years ago, because these days you have the accessibility to the music. It's worldwide. I mean, it was accessible to me in, you know, 1974 or something like that. I mean, it's— so music gets everywhere all over the world, but the accessibility now through the internet in particular, and, you know, YouTube, and then all the literature. There's a million books about jazz theory, about jazz instruction, about how to play, who to listen to. There's just a wealth of things. So for— and I've heard this, you know, like on YouTube when you hear like the little prodigies of playing not only classical music and bluegrass and things like this, but there's like amazingly talented, you know, even 10-year-olds that are playing very sophisticated stuff. Obviously they have a very tuned-in ear, I think, quite immediately. But of course, yes, you can get into, I think, the mechanics of the music much earlier, but still it's about the listening, you know, because the recordings, especially in jazz music, the recordings teach us the music both, you know, directly but kind of in the air because you're listening. And then because for me, I'll elaborate on this a little bit, one of my early heroes was Oscar Peterson. Who you've probably heard of because he's, uh, one of the great jazz pianists of the 20th century into the 21st century. And I wore this one record out, and so I was very influenced by him. It's still in my playing, but that was through that recording. And so, you know, 15, it clicked for me. But certainly, uh, yeah, I didn't— I didn't know until then what I was going to do, but music was with me since I was 5. I know that for a fact. So it kind of took me further. Excuse me. So yeah, yeah.

So would you say that in a way, um, jazz education starts with listening then? Because I think one, uh, important distinction to make between jazz and classical is in jazz the reference is the recording, it's the album, right? Where in, with classical music, you know, for Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, composers like that, they didn't have recording technology, obviously. So our reference was the score.

Yeah. But I would ask you guys, so as you were coming up and learning, like who, like say, uh, Mozart Piano Concerto, and you go, well, who's your favorite player? Plays it, who's your favorite recording, you probably all have that relationship to them. Or I'm asking that— that makes sense, right?

Right, of course. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Because, uh, because, because then for me, uh, you know, the, the, the sound of Oscar Peterson got in my playing. Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Keith Jarrett, all those things that are very important influences to shape— well, first of all, to gain a vocabulary of ideas and use— literally steal them. If they were on the score, we're all essentially doing the same thing. We're taking music and then we try and personalize it in our own way. So, you know, all those players are in me. But then also Vladimir Horowitz, my hero, You know, Arthur Rubinstein, uh, Claudio Rao. I mean, just, just, uh, Martha, Martha Agric, etc. I mean, I— anybody who plays great, right, and is soulful, I go, I'm in, you know.

So throughout the history of, uh, jazz, you know, it went through so many different styles. How did you— how do you define jazz? What does jazz mean to you? You know, I would like to know.

Yeah, it's not, I guess it's not quite a simple answer, but it's, uh, well, being the age that I am, it's, uh, it's a way of living.

I mean, it's just still 20 years old. You and Gabby always look so young, you know, 20 times 3, right?

Okay, uh, but it's, you know, it's, uh It's a way of living. Just, I'm only saying that because I've been in it for so long, but it's, uh, it's one of the freest forms of music to express yourself. And, uh, uh, and I've been always attracted by the feel of the music, you know, how, how the music moves, but also how it makes me move inside of myself and at times even physically. It's just, I, I love the groove of the music and the feel of the music. I mean, it's— and of course that's not only relegated to jazz, but it's, uh, it's that and then the, uh, the, the sense of improvisation. That is, it is an improvisation-based music, yet it— there's a lot of structure to it that is important to convey, you know, as a teacher, but also to people who are listening, who want to get into the music, who are either musicians or non-musicians, about how it's built. Because, of course, it's very, very complex, but the structures are very, very simple. Very, very simple. And so that Anyway, there's a lot of room, and you can be a misfit. Maybe you don't fit in in certain ways. I think because the music, it's over 100 years old, right? And it encompasses so many styles of music from all over the world.

Yes, yes.

You know, and it continues. So, uh, that's what I think is very, very beautiful about the art form. And more and more Classical, I like this aspect of how things are evolving, that classical and jazz musicians are really starting to become—

Marching, right?

Yeah, integrated. Whereas there's like, there's a terrific pianist named Dan Tepfer, who's a fantastic jazz pianist, but an incredible improviser. With Bach, you know. I mean, I, I don't do those things, but I, I can take something and build something. But, you know, great, uh, Brad Mehldau, fantastic, you know, certainly classical player. Keith Jarrett, yep, you know, a, a great classical musician as well. Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, they all had their roots, but they continued them over the course of their careers. So, uh, Anyway, it—

that's beautiful.

So, so it's, uh, I mean, it's a, it's a very good place for me to exist in quote-unquote jazz, but it covers so much, it's, you know, uh, that, that it's, it's hard to define just one particular way.

But thank you. Yes, that's beautiful.

So, um, I have several questions. So I, um, I saw your video clip of several videos actually on YouTube, and then one in particular I really loved was Blues is Free. It says in the description, it says 12 bars with no set melody. So, um, were you basically improvising? Yes.

Oh wow.

But so the first 12 bar is kind of the theme Is that what it is?

Well, um, the, the, the thing about the blues is that in the tradition of it, it's 12 measures long, and it— that's the form. Like, it's— then you start over.

Oh, I didn't know.

No, and you, you keep cycling that particular chord progression, and it's built on 1-4-5, you know, the tonic, dominant, subdominant, um, you know, and that's the classic, uh, that's the classic form. I can play it for you if you want.

Sure, yes, that would be great.

1, 2, 3, 4. That's the top. So I didn't play any melody, but that was just a copping rhythm, right? And so 1-4-1-5-4-1, that's the traditional, um, the traditional blues. And then with, uh, the more of the jazz influence would be this. There's still 12 bars, it's in the key of C. So, all right, it's, it's—

I feel like I'm back in the bar again, in the jazz club.

Yeah, I wish I was too. We all have to wait. But it's— you still hear the, the, you know, the landing places of going to the IV chord, the V chord, but there's passing chords that are leading in from C that lead up to F7 that lead back to C, and then there's these passing chords, you know, but that's the jazz influence of, you know, harmonies coming in But the important thing is it's still 12 measures long. That never ever varies.

No, I can't.

So like, if you think of— you're looking at a clock and it goes 12, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1, 2— it's always this cycle, and you have to count and you can't lose your place. But that's, that's all it is. I mean, it's, uh It's a particular number of measures. It's— well, of course it's more than that, but the math part of it is 12 bars. There's a few other different forms where there's an 8-bar blues and things like that, but this is the traditional, you know, um, sound. The first one I played in particular. But yeah, right.

I mean, so I totally enjoy The Blues Is Free. So for those who are listening or watching, I'll make sure to put this YouTube link in the description so you watch it as well.

But, um, so can I just talk a little more about it, just, just on that particular performance? Uh, yes, there was no melody here. I didn't play any melody either, you know, I was just playing the chords. Um, but, uh, so in that sense, it's, it's very, very open in that I can create a melody and and then come back to that later. But it's, it's a form, it's a form for expression, I guess, maybe in the sense of like, uh, like in classical music, like maybe a canon or something like that, where it's this recurring— or a passacaglia, where it's this recurring, uh, bass movement that just keeps cycling like Pachelbel's Canon, you know, it's very improvisatory in a way after the initial theme. So it would be like this. It just is it. So in that sense, with jazz, it's very rigid, you know, and there's no stretching of the time. It's very constant where I— one of the things I love about classical music is when you look at a score, a symphonic score, you go, oh, okay, well, it's in 4/4, for instance. But then you, you follow the score with the interpretation of the music, and it's got these nice stretches and little pauses. And jazz music in this sense does not do that. It's always about the groove, keeping good time, good tempo, not slowing down, not rushing. So it's interesting. We learn from each other, I would say.

But Jim, I just wanted to say thank you so much for that wonderful demonstration because that really, uh, just cleared up so much for me. You know, I know when people start learning jazz, like taking jazz lessons, always start with the 12-bar blues, right? And, um, and I always wondered, well, well, how do you get though from 12-bar blues to jazz? Which you just showed us. It's amazing, you know, like, because the blues is clearly the blues, and then jazz, it's a different language, but you can hear the overlap. Like, the structure is the same, the, um, you know, same 12 bars, same, uh, root chords, right? But then once you have the jazz version, of course, now we have extended harmonies, right? 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, right? You're doing more kind of stuff jumping around the register, right? Like kind of up and down, whereas the first version was much more steady in the same place. Um, more rhythmic complexity. Um, and you just right there in like 2 minutes, you showed us the evolution of one style into the other and how they're connected. It's just really wonderful. Thank you.

Yeah. Oh, you're welcome. And I, uh, I, I also want to emphasize that, you know, the blues is is the 4 was happening before jazz, but that's— jazz grew out of the blues.

Exactly.

And of course influenced by, you know, European harmonies and, and things like that, that, uh, that extended, you know, the art form. But I, I want to say, uh, a couple of the things about improvising now. Uh, so with the blues, there's the blues scale, and there's two ways of approaching improvisation. So you can do like a horizontal improvisation, meaning like with the blues scale, it's 6 notes. I can take that scale and I can play that, those 6 notes in whatever way I want over the 12 bars, right? Over C7, F7, G7. Now in a vertical sense I can look at each chord individually and go, here's the C7. I can play multiple things that address only that chord. Then when it goes to F7, I'm going to do the same thing. I'll go qualities of F7, qualities of G7. So I'll play it for you.

Yeah, I was going to say, could you demonstrate a little bit?

Yeah, so the blue notes are Wonderful. Okay, so now I'll, now I'll play addressing each chord.

Yay!

Thank you, thank you so much. Okay, so I see, so in the first version basically you're only using the notes of the blue, uh, blues scale, am I correct?

That's correct.

Right, and then the second version is much more chromatic and you basically have access to any scale that fits the chord.

Yeah, yeah, and actually, uh, all 12 notes are available, but that's, that's putting the cart a little bit too far down the road before the horse. It's— but the thing is, uh, what's important to remember with improvisation when you're addressing the chords, if I only address the third of the chord, the major third, of C, F, and G, then immediately you're getting a sense of what the harmony is. Is it major or minor, right? So, you know, and even if I don't use a bass note There's no bass note, but it was a describing of the harmony. So that's that in that sense. And of course, blues players like B.B. King, of course they would go in and out of this. But in jazz, it's all of a sudden we can utilize the modes, the Mixolydian mode, the diminished scale, the altered diminished scale, etc., etc. You know, right, right, right. A lot of more things are available. But, uh, the beauty of, you know, the blues, uh, it's like you're— you're— the blues scale, it's like you're floating over the top, you know. You kind of can't make a mistake with those 6 notes.

Right.

It's great. But more sophisticated, not to sound— that can sound a little bit derogatory. No, it's just more expression, a larger vocabulary of expression. Right, right, right.

Okay, that clears some stuff up. Thank you. Yeah, so I feel like in classical music, you kind of have the black and white of major and minor up until about, I don't know, Debussy or something, right? And it's very clearly major or minor. Yes, there's like, you know, modal mixture, but those are really the two anchoring forces until we get to 20th century music. And then, and then in blues, I think like one of the defining characteristics is you have both kind of at the same time, right? And, and what you were doing just now, I was, I was like, oh yeah, it's interesting when you really anchor that major third, then it immediately sounds less bluesy to me. And I think your instincts as a jazz and blues player, like, like you kept sneaking that minor third in there as well, right?

Yeah, yeah, true, true.

And then, and then when you get to more what we think of as jazz, right, then all these different scales come in. And like you said, greater vocabulary, much wider color palette. So there's less of this kind of duality of major and minor, right?

Yeah, it— well, it becomes— it's all true, but it becomes a mix, and it becomes actually quite personal to the player, you know, like, like with Oscar Peterson, like a virtuoso, unbelievable technique, but very blues-oriented. A lot of that minor third, flat 5, flat 7. I mean, he, he always had that in the mix. Quite often, but you'll hear an element of the blues in practically any jazz musician play. But then somebody like Keith Jarrett, who's got a great sense of the blues and gospel, but he'll go like it all of a sudden is a very, very different language and utilizing much more than Oscar did.

Mm-hmm.

You know. Ah, but it's still, it's, you know, it's still very, very personal, but they're still playing on the same chord changes, the same form, you know. But then again, then on top of that is the touch of the individual pianist and, and how they assemble their chords, how they move them. I mean, it's, uh, but It's true. I mean, it's just— and in classical music, such a wealth of amazing harmonic things. Yes, but especially when it started to get into the 20th century— well, late 19th century, but especially 20th century, Debussy, and then of course Stravinsky and Schoenberg and 12-tone and all kinds of things. I mean, everything is open now. I mean, right, has, has been for a long time. And so, uh, and playing, uh, outside of the key, for instance, so the C7. Great, fantastic. Uh, and, and one thing I learned from, uh, uh, Dave Liebman, the great saxophone, is to played with Miles Davis and, uh, Elvin Jones, who played with John Coltrane. Very serious lineage in history was that his— he had just a great concept about, you know, uh, like cadences, you know, tension and release. And where, like this, I can go outside of something, but as long as occasionally I come back in and I hit a point of resolution And it's like, ah, oh, I'm off again, you know. You can go, and of course classical music, we learned that from classical music of the tension and then coming back home and then going away again, right? If it's only always away, well, that's much more avant-garde, which I love too, but the best avant-garde players, my mind are the ones who have a sense of cadence and resolution. Otherwise, it's just kind of like, well, uh, I'm not getting some— I'm not getting enough from it. I like some sense of form.

But yeah, it's got to be anchored in something, right?

Yes, yes. And I think that's— and plus, I think it's very much more musically riveting for the listener to go All of a sudden it's like, wow, how did they get back there? Oh wow, where'd they go? Oh, they're back again. You know, dramatic, makes it more dramatic.

So, right. This concludes part 1 of our interview with Jim Riddle. Tune in next time for more of Jim's insights and amazing improv demonstrations.