Season 1 Episode 9: Jonathan Ong - Concert Pianist, Arranger, Twitch Streamer

You're listening to The Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century. Welcome back to another episode of The Piano Pod. I am Eric Hunter.

I am Clara Jeong.

I'm Yukimi Song.

Our guest today is Jonathan Ong. Classical pianist, improviser, arranger, and Twitch streamer. With over 57,000 followers, 2.4 million views, and 3,500 hours of streaming time, Jonathan is ranked in the top 0.1% of all Twitch streamers and is, needless to say, among the world's top Twitch music channels. Everybody, please welcome Mr. Jonathan Ahm.

Yay, welcome!

Thank you so much for having me.

Some of our audience might not be familiar with Twitch, And so I wanted to ask you if you could talk about a little bit about what Twitch is and why you chose it as a platform for what you do.

Oh, absolutely. Oh, well, let's go top level. The absolute top level, what I do is busking on the internet. That's literally what it is. It's just busking on the internet. But if you go a little bit into what Twitch is, Twitch is basically an empty space, much like YouTube. It's an empty space. You have a channel with your name on it, and that's just an empty room, and you just got to put things in it. And, uh, people— most people know Twitch for as a gaming platform. They put, you know, their gameplay in it because that's the focal point. That's what people congregate around. And, uh, and then they start talking about it. But the value add for any streamer, uh, the reason why anybody will continue to come back would either be because they're good at that thing that they're showing off, or that, uh, they add commentary, or that, you know, they have to bring something to the table for people to keep coming back. But that's essentially what Twitch is. It's like interactive television based around interest that you can find. And you'll find that it's not just gaming, and it's also not just music. It's art, it's sculpting, there's people wandering around, uh, IRL, you know, in real life. Uh, there's people making— now I can't even remember what I'm saying— there are people animating. There's all sorts of things that people do. Cooking, cooking's a big section now actually. And, uh, there's even, uh, there's even some people who like sell yachts around the world. Like they're selling a yacht around the world, you can follow them, and they've got amazing like drone cameras and things, and you can actually just explore them.

Wow. All right, so I'm starting to get an idea, but just for the sake of comparison, so why do you choose Twitch over something like YouTube or Facebook live streaming, Instagram streaming?

Well, the thing about, um, Instagram and things is there's a limited, um, amount of customization at the moment. So for example, uh, with Twitch, you can literally get this amazing free broadcast software, and actually, uh, this will work with YouTube and, and Facebook as well, but we'll talk about in a second. So As long as you can harness the power of your PC and this free software, Open Broadcasting Software Studio, OBS Studio, uh, you, you will end up being able to present almost anything you want, basically limited by your ability to put in graphics and sound, and that's it. That's the only real limitations. Uh, so Instagram doesn't have quite that flexibility yet. You have to, you have to get— do workarounds to get around it. Facebook has got a very different, uh, culture. It's, it's Facebook Gaming, and the way to do their chat and so on is, um, of course um, it's like in comments, like on Facebook posts, which doesn't feel as organic and doesn't flow as easily to me. Uh, and then Twitch is actually sort of like the YouTube of live streaming. It's quite, it's, it's quite niche still globally, but it's an, it's a, it's the big daddy of, um, of live streaming websites. And when we ourselves, like music, are a niche, it's helpful to have, um, a really, really big platform so that way, at least within the big platform, your niche is a bit bigger. Absolutely.

Yeah, well, that makes sense. YouTube.

Yeah, with YouTube, I feel like YouTube is really, really good for polished content, uh, because they give you an engagement stat of how long people watch your videos for. And, uh, depending on the material, of course, like if it's something like music, people just want to hear the song for 2 to 3 minutes and then they're good. But a live stream, and especially the sort of things I do, uh, they go for about 6 or 7 hours. And I don't know if the last time you watched a 7-hour YouTube video Yes, not recently. Not recently indeed. So it's for more curated content, I think, more polished, more curated content. Whereas Twitch, it's, um, it's literally things you create in the moment. It's sort of like a cafe. You go to a cafe, right?

Yeah.

And people can jump in or out anytime, and they do.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I actually saw, uh, your, your show or episode or whatever, and then it's literally 7, 8 hours. Yeah, you're streaming, you're performing the entire time.

It just goes that long. And, uh, when I first started, if I need to use the restroom, yeah, but that's it. What about like lunch or— Yeah, yeah, no, you don't, you don't. You have a big old meal before you start. I mean, there's nothing saying that I can't. There's nothing saying that you can't. And, uh Technically, you're supposed to take breaks every 2 hours and whack up a BRB screen or whatever. I'm, I'm very task-oriented, so, um, because people in my community have requested songs to be played and it takes me a good deal of time to work my way around them and build them into arrangements and things, uh, I guess if I had a tagline, I suppose my stream would be the slowest production stream— no, hang on, the quickest production stream on Twitch, but the slowest request stream. Because, uh, most people, when you ask them to play a thing they play the song on their instrument and then it's done, it's gone. And that took about 3 minutes. Uh, but then for me, they go, can you play this? And I go, well, not yet. And then I listen to it and I basically transcribe enough, uh, notation that I can— I see the song in about 5 to 6 minutes. And then I loop it into some orchestral or symphonic metal or bands or whatever. And of course, because it's a loop and it's sound and it travels through time, we have to build it layer by layer by layer. And so So this entire process takes the better part of 30 to 40 minutes, depending. But then we can perform usually almost the whole song with a full arrangement and solo over it like it's my own messed up piano concerto, which I really, really have fun doing. Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, so the thing is then people queue up all these things and I, I get really like tunnel visioned and I'm just like, I now I'm, I'm here on the internet until I finish the queue because people tipped kind of for those, and so I have to do them. So the stream only ends when the queue ends.

I see. Okay, well, that takes a lot of dedication for sure.

It's like an unspoken social contract. Yeah, it's, as you know, it's just trust. So people say, oh, you're offering this and you do this, and then if you don't do the thing, then those people may not support you anymore. So you guys really—

I mean, you got people coming up.

So basically your show starts and, um, you take a request from the viewer, correct? And then, you know, you hum the melody and from watching the actual music, whatever, whoever the artist is, basically yours is, um, it's an arrangement, arrangement of the transcription, right? Transcription, yeah.

And then a direct transcription, of course.

And you're making your arrangement and then orchestrating like in front of the audience, streaming audience.

Yeah, you're making—

that's amazing. Wow.

It just, it developed on the platform because you can't put that anywhere else. You can't put this anywhere. Like, where does it go? So it's a Twitch-specific format. I do more traditional things. Like, tomorrow I'll be doing a more traditional thing. Every, every 2 weeks, I, um, because of the streaming, I was able to acquire a, like, an old concert grand from Bechstein. And then I, then I've gone and messed with it a lot. I've gone and put all these lights in it and I put like a laser strip in it. And so now it's sort of like a quasi— it's not digital at all, it's fully acoustic, but, um, it has digital effects and things tied to every note, uh, which I really— yeah, it's so cool, it's so cool. It's basically my car for the next 10 years. But, uh, you know how it is, your pianist too. And, uh, and I do more traditional streams where I, I sit there and best bang out all sorts of tunes for about 4.5 hours. They used to go really, really long, but it's really, really impossible to maintain a really good quality over 7, 8 hours of just piano playing, as you all know.

Yeah, it's so hard.

Wow.

So first of all, I think anybody listening probably is already really interested to check out what it looks like, what you do. So we'll say it again at the end, but can you say your Twitch channel address for the viewers, and then we will put it in the description later.

But what is it? Uh, it's www.twitch.tv/jonathanong, which is J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N-O-N-G, and there's no spaces or anything. Yeah, and I was—

I—

when I first made that, um, that channel, I— it's really my first social media platform I'm taking very seriously, and I didn't know what handle to use. And actually, I didn't really have a lot of time to think about it because I was supposed to just hop on with a friend and play some stuff. So I literally just plugged in my name, which is, you know, it's a great way to de-anonymize yourself on the internet.

I'm curious, where did you find the inspiration to do that? I had a friend who was on Twitch. I don't know if he's still on now, but he's doing very silly stuff. So I never even thought of— one time he was like, oh, I was seeing you can dance. Like, I'm not a dancer, you know. But what inspired you to actually do this with this big production?

Well, we're pianists, and pianists are basically hermits, right? We don't— we don't— and you know, you don't get to play with a whole bunch of other people almost any of the time unless you do chamber music and things. And the problem with chamber music— okay, so this is gonna sound probably pretty terrible, but the problem with doing chamber piano music and things like that is the more people involved in your stuff, like, the harder it is to get it out there and do. And I— so I did some collaborative concerts and I found them, uh, excessively sort of like difficult to organize. And then when you actually do the event, it's also hard to make them financially viable because now everyone also needs to be paid. So then everybody basically ends up with dinner money at the end of a thing that supposedly grossed 5 figures. So it's like, okay, this is interesting. So, uh, but at the same time, there's that thrill of playing with other instruments still, right? So back in the beginning, way before I knew what Twitch was, way before Twitch even existed actually, back then— I think Twitch started in 2011 and it wasn't called Twitch, it was called Justin.tv because a guy basically streamed his own life and just went around and it took off. The original live streamer, pretty much. So that was really cool. But, uh, I was doing tertiary education at the time. I was doing a post— a postgrad. And, um, I just realized that all these VSTs— and all I wanted at the time was to make really dramatic orchestral music and play piano along with them, or recreate some piano concertos and play along with them. And so I bought one string library, and then I bought another string library, and then I needed to fill in my woodwinds. And before I knew it, I'd spent a completely insane amount of money as a student student on a fairly large collection of VSTs, you know, all these virtual instruments. It gets addictive.

I know what you're talking about.

It's horrifying. It's absolutely horrifying. And then, uh, I found Craigslist, and Craigslist, um, had all this secondhand stuff, you know. And so I found it like a keytar, because I've always wanted to play guitar, but that was never on offer in my lifetime. And, you know, when I was growing up, and so I just never did. And so there was this keytar, and I was like, hey, that's kind of cool. It's like really dorky, but it's also kind of cool. Maybe I should. And then I just bought it and I had no use for it. So it just appeared at parties when everyone was drinking and I was playing along. And it appeared in a few friends' YouTube videos and things like that. And the same thing for my, my VSTs. They were too limited in scope because I'd only spent the better part of like $8,000 or something at the time, which is huge. But, but in the world of VSTs is, is not that much, sadly. So I'd basically, at the time especially, So I had nothing to do with them, and I tried doing some film composing gigs with friends, and they never really went anywhere. And I— so I didn't know what to do, you know, what to do with it. And then I came back here to Australia and just got on with the serious business of surviving in my adult life, you know, uh, day-to-day music teaching, classical performances, things like that, all the normal things. And it's only when, um, I appeared on Twitch and I realized that, oh, I can actually maybe I can use this stuff. The real turning point was when, um, one, one particularly good special came. I, I'm a— I don't have a shopping problem. Um, seems highly suspicious. Oh dear, I don't know how many keyboards are in your background over there. Uh, none. Yes, none. So, uh, basically, for anybody listening, he just eliminated the background. That's true. Uh, to be honest though, like, most of the stuff, uh, that's a used one, says that, and says that, and that was a present, and that was like 40% off, and that was somewhere, and that was— and so it's like, it goes like that. And this was a bonus.

It's okay, Jonathan, we're really not auditing you. You can relax.

I bought all these VSTs I had no use for them. Twitch came along and then I realized I could actually use them for something and I could actually do what I wanted to do previously. And the real flip turning point was when I just bought this Loop Station and I was like, I'm going to learn to loop. And honestly, I don't know if I've learned to loop because I think I'm the only person I know who's using the Loop Station this way. Usually you loop with 8 bars, 16 bars, 32 bars of something, right? And you groove and you do the thing. And we're classical musicians, so I find that really hard to jive with because I get bored. I'm used to things evolving and changing and things. And so what do I end up doing? I make it even potentially more boring by looping you an entire 90 seconds to 2 minutes of whatever song it is, which includes verse and, and chorus structures and bridges and things like that. The entire structure gets looped, and then I arrange over the top of it layer by layer like a dot matrix printer. It's a very, it's a very weird way of using a loop station. But then I end up with these loops that are essentially fully orchestrated tracks.

That's really neat. Yeah, you're right. I never heard of anybody using the Loop Station that way, but it does make sense that that's how, you know, we would do it as classical musicians.

We like complexity in, like, you know, in our structures and in our chord progressions and our melodies.

And constant evolution, right?

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, for what it's worth, anybody I've tried to— who is in this space who's, like, streaming or doing social media. Anytime I've tried to explain to anybody what I do, they go, oh, that's not going to work. And I go, well, well, it's, it's working, I'm making a living. And they're like, oh, oh, that's a surprise, because it's technically, it's so long for the internet. But what I found, much like in the school playground, except, you know, much, much, much bigger and better, uh, in the world you can be your own kind of weird. And you find enough weirdos who like what you like, and you don't need that many of them to have something good going. And that's basically what's happening here, I think.

Yeah, and that's the power of the internet, right? I mean, don't sell yourself short. Like, what you do is amazing, right? And you've clearly found a large audience, so it's not that, that niche. But, but it is true that, you know, with it, we can reach out internationally, right, and find people in all diverse pockets of the world that way.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's really— it's actually really cool to, like, if it's going back, because I remember this other point to this massive collection of stuff. I won't go through a shopping list or anything, but one of the things is that, um, uh, that got hammered into me at school was something about how you need a social and a physical environment. You know, this whole thing about, uh, a child— child in education and things. You need to give them a social environment and a physical environment so that it can— they can learn music. The physical environment, of course, is your instruments and things like that. And the social environment is the encouragement of development of, you know, this, this particular interest. And so in some ways, the reason why I was buying these things was actually because I was like, I don't really know how to use them, but I'll never find out if I don't get some. Yeah. So then I got some, but then I sort of just fell off the cliff and bought all of them.

So sometimes you gotta do that too, you know. It's good to have options.

And that's also the creative mind part, right? Like, if you're not so creative, if you're not free with your mind, and then we are always staying with the tradition, it's hard actually to explore, you know.

That's a very—

that's—

yeah, that's a—

that's not—

I don't know if it's a creative mind. I think creativity is a thing, um, that gets trained out of us if we, you know, in educational context, uh, because we are so— we're guided so much towards goal-oriented things and task-oriented things in the course of our education. If If you're not really lucky, your education becomes purely vocational. It trains you for a thing. But as musicians who go through college, the training really only trains us to go and do the same thing that our professors do, kind of, right? Yeah, because that's— you're best able to guide people along things that you know how to do yourself.

Absolutely. I mean, that's their area of expertise.

Yeah, of course. And so then when we spend all our time, um, focusing on the things that we're trained to do and things, no one's actually going around telling you, hey, you should feel free to go and explore, especially with classical music. Oh yeah. Oh, this interpretation's wrong. Oh, these notes are wrong. Like, you know, this is outside of the, of the guidelines and things like that. And so because we become so specialized, um, and so proficient interpreting things within our guidelines and things like that. Uh, when we try and start making up stuff, improvising, arranging, messing around with things, it feels like we're doing something wrong. You find that?

Oh yeah, yeah, it took me years to get over that. Oh my God, it's so painful.

Yeah, yeah.

Classical musicians, like even the students, our students, right, like we all teach, it's hard for them to improvise sometimes. In the beginning because they're so used to being told what to do by the score almost, you know. It's like when you do it outside of the score, you feel like you're being a bad child almost, you know.

There's something comforting about just playing, you know, as faithfully as possible to the composer's intentions. It's very comforting because it's actually not fully us, is it? It's like we're not responsible for these. Yeah, we're not responsible for this. This is not actually my heart, my soul, my emotional state. This is actually me portraying what I think. And so when you start going out and making your own music, then it's just like, oh, it all feels weird now.

Yeah, it's a very exposed feeling. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah.

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I'm just curious about your experiences in, in the United States. So how long you've been— you, were you in, uh, California? I believe you were in California.

Yeah, absolutely. Basically, I managed to get into the master's program at USC in 2007. So from about July, August, I went over there and just had a blast actually until, um, until March 2012. And that's basically, that's how long it took me to finish my master's and my DMA. And oh wow, yeah, they just kept funding it fortunately for me because otherwise I could never have done it. I'm very grateful for them for that.

Uh, so you, you, you went to USC Thornton School of Music?

Yeah, absolutely, like Eric.

Yep, that's right. We just missed each other, matter of fact, because I graduated 2006.

Oh, so you guys didn't know each other back then? You just met later on?

Yeah, I mean, pretty much. Like, I came back to visit during the summer, but we weren't students at the same time.

And I heard about Eric, uh, from other students because he was really well known at that time. And so, yeah, me and my roommates, we threw a lot of parties.

Oh wow, maybe a bit of notoriety.

But when you were in California studying, and you were studying like strictly classical music, like performing arts?

Yeah, I mean, it's a classical piano doctorate, but they're minors. And so if I, if I could do it over again, actually, I would have gone even more left of field and done something like a business minor or something like that, because, um, I think all musicians— in fact, most people these days need to be their own entrepreneurs, like like you need to be your own business person. And freelance, I used to be really scared of it, but really it's— I think now it's the way, place to be.

Obviously I would say that because that's what I'm doing, but you found a working formula.

Yeah, but at the same time, it would have been handy to have a bit more like structured grounding instead of just sort of like wildly flailing your way through the landscape. But what I was studying, the major was classical piano, but the minors were jazz because I've always been interested in jazz. And then music education, because I figured I was going to have to try and find a job somewhere. Although actually, that was probably the most useful minor I took. And music industry, which meant that it wasn't all just classical. I did— I spent a bunch of time, um, through the music ed and music industry streams doing a bunch of other things that were not classical or jazz. And that meant that I spent a lot of time doing, um child, child education. I actually volunteered in some nursing homes to provide entertainment for them and things like that and started doing shows for them on a regular basis. With the music industry stuff, then we had more formal training with mastering and mixing and things. And USC actually has an enviable sort of roster of actual industry professionals who just happen to come into USC and teach. So I picked up a few good tricks from there. I also learned that I'm never going to be a really good mastering engineer, but you know, it's good to know what you want to do and what you don't want to do for the person.

That's a highly specialized—

it's so specialized. You sit there listening to minute, uh, fluctuations in, in, in, in the frequency range and trying to make things sparkle. And I, I found that it may— it changed the way I, I listened to music in a way that, well, it wasn't music anymore, right? Yeah. So I figured I probably wasn't going to be very good at that. But yeah, technically it was mostly classical piano. And anything else, uh, that came out of that, most of it was sort of self-directed because, um, I actually, I know why that happened. I was sitting in, in one of my music education lectures one day and the professor said, who's going to work in a university? And literally everybody put up their hand. I was sitting there looking at the 16 people in the room and I was just sitting there going, there are many universities across this country alone and there are many rooms like this. Full of DMA candidates sticking up their hands going, I'm going to work in a university. And last time I looked at the job postings for universities, there weren't many posts. So I was like, crap, I gotta find something else.

Plan B.

Plan B. Although ironically, I did end up working in a university, and, uh, I only— I had to make a formal decision as to whether I would do Twitch or uni at some point. Yeah. I went home and faithfully carried out the traditional path, um, because it's a good path and there's good things about it. But I, I just wanted to go and explore a bit more and enjoy my freedom.

Yeah.

But when you envision yourself, uh, you envisioned yourself when you, you were young, before you came to the United States, did you think of like doing streaming like you're doing right now, or if they did?

Yeah, so life, life is basically you get, you get dealt a hand of cards and you can only play your cards in each round according to what you know and what you have. And that's basically, that's what anyone can do. So you can't like, uh, so I didn't know what live streaming was until I finished my doctorate and until I was here working in schools. I worked in universities and I worked in, in primary and public schools and things like that. Uh, these were the best cards I had, so I played them, and, uh, and I was satisfied with that. And then Twitch came along, and I played that, and I didn't know what was going to happen. It's a bit of a wild card, and it's now gone, uh, it's managed to sustain me for, for 2, 3 years so far, and I don't know when it will run out, if it will run out. I don't know what will happen next. Um, that was the biggest part about, um, about career and, and freelancing and things that was difficult to get get, um, comfortable with. It's very difficult to get comfortable with. The days where we actually get a job and we sit in the job forever are totally gone. And actually, in this point, if I sat in a job forever, I don't know if I would like that. I'd feel like I'd become part of the wall or something like that. In fact, somebody said that to me when I was finishing my studies. Both times when I did my bachelor's, I was there for 4— over 4 years because I was doing an honors degree. And then when I went over to USC, I was there for 5 years, as you know. And in both times, my friends or colleagues or people who were new to the school, they were like, oh, you're leaving? But you're like part of the furniture. And, and something within me, I was like, I don't want to be part of the furniture. Like, I don't know how I feel about this. And so I feel like I, I've become more comfortable with a life of sort of change and what you could could possibly call insecurity, but I like to think of it as, as sort of like potential for, for more, sometimes less. You just have to take it as it comes.

It's a big adventure.

It is a big adventure, and that's, that's part of the game.

So while you are in California, did it really influence you to be who you are, where you are right now?

Or, I mean, absolutely.

Oh yeah.

Absolutely. I loved California. Um, it's just that I was a resident alien for tax purposes, and I didn't see any prospect of that changing, so I thought I better go back home where I had, like, you know, citizenship rights and things like that. And, uh, and, and the only way for me to stay in, in California would have been either to get married, which wasn't happening— I'm still not married— and, uh, for all the viewers out there, we have a beautiful That's yours.

That's great.

What was that? Was that understand? Twitch.tv/JohnathanNg. Is that—

I, as I was saying, either to, you know, by marriage or to work as a, as a lecturer in an institution, and then you wouldn't be able to change jobs or anything. And that seemed to me so, so difficult. And, um, so I wanted to go home and just figure myself out. But California was formative. The degree I got, the degrees I got at USC I may not be directly applying them, but I indirectly apply them every day because it becomes part of you. Something traumatic. Something that formative becomes part of you. All those papers you write and all those things they force you to think about with philosophy or music education and development and exposure to things and the things that you're supposed to teach children. And as you live those things by teaching children and other students yourself, then you start thinking, oh well, these are things I should apply to myself, which is actually part of the whole thing here. Like I said, the social and physical environment earlier, the, um, the needing to grow and to be uncomfortable, to sort of like, um, push myself in new directions, trying to just stay out of a rut essentially. Yeah, because it's very tempting, isn't it? I'm the most comfortable on stream when I'm playing a song I've played, like a classical piece or song Classical piece I played since I was like 10. And I just sit there playing Fantasy Improv 2 and just chatting because honestly, that is so deeply ingrained within me. I could probably be half a vegetable and just put me on the piano and I'll just do that. It's the most comfortable I am. But the challenge, of course, is to continue growing in some direction. A bit like all the people who we look up to, or I mean, I look up to anyway. Anybody who I've looked up to hasn't really sat there just doing the same thing. They sort of have strived for something. And it doesn't necessarily need to be like material success or anything. It's just being a better you.

Sure.

Yeah. It's, you know, the thing that jumps out to me when you say that is that's been a common theme on our show with all the guests that we've had on. People you know, some younger, some older, uh, some quite advanced in their careers, doing very well. Everybody's still looking to grow, and I just feel like that's such a rare quality. But, you know, not in professional musicians. That's one of the great things about what we do. It forces us to, and then eventually over time we come to need that.

Absolutely. Actually, I would think that— I would say that we could extrapolate that further. I think pretty much any industry where you have people who are sort of I was, you know, doing quite well in it. It requires adaptability and growth. And to, um, to, to sort of like point out even contemporary musicians— and now I have not— I have only half a leg to stand on with contemporary things because, uh, I was a classical musician who literally lived under a classical rock that was about the size of Mount Vesuvius or something. It was a huge classical rock. I only ever started listening to, to non-classical music when I got my own car and realized the radio tuned to other stations. And it was That it was almost that bad. I mean, you know, there were some sanctioned things from the parents, but you know how far that goes. And, uh, it was like, oh, there's all this other music. But people like Madonna, for example, who has reinvented themselves multiple, multiple times over the course of their careers, or Kylie Minogue. And like, you, you think about performing, and in music industry, the first thing they teach you is at some point your career will end. But it's just like when. And for, uh, these ladies, for example, they— these, these, uh, they have reinvented themselves so many times. Their career is still here, they're still going, and that's kind of inspirational. And you'd find that in many, um, other industries, that, that's just adaptability, right? That ability to reinvent yourself and to stay current. Prior to Twitch, I, I was looking at my smartphone and they were talking about how it tracks you and things. I was like, hmm, I'll put on my tinfoil hat and we're like, I'm gonna get rid of this thing and I'm gonna buy a dumb phone like a Nokia, go back to the good old days where just calls and texts, I'll be fine. And then I was like, I'm happy with being obsolete in this point. I'm happy at just sort of like, just, I'm going to be teaching, I'm going to be lecturing, I'm just going to be doing serious classical piano. I am quite happy here. I'll just stay here. And clearly that didn't really happen. But I think we make a deliberate choice, either consciously or subconsciously, we make a deliberate choice that, yeah, we're tired of keeping up with the new and this is where we are. And, uh, and then that's when we start—

we—

that's when we stop growing, really. That's when we stop growing and then we just start sort of getting into that really well-worn rut. So my challenge to myself usually is to try and stay away from that, although I tell you what, it moves real fast, doesn't it?

It does, it does. Yeah, but yeah, you know, it's, uh, I don't know, what can I say? I just, I, I know the feeling that you're talking about. It's like if you stop moving, you start dying, you know?

Absolutely. That's why all these old sayings you think of that people, you know, people just quote at you as children and you just go and roll your eyes, uh, that rolling stone gathers no moss thing. That's literally what we're doing now. We're just rolling stones. And that's exactly what you guys are doing with The Piano Pod, like moving with the times, taking advantage of the fact that we can now actually talk to other people, find people who like what we do, and explore things like this together. It's actually really cool.

Yeah, we're really enjoying it.

Do you encourage other musicians to livestream also? I mean, right now, you know, it's COVID, so everybody is kind of doing livestreaming or recording their own performances. But do you encourage— would you like to encourage younger pianist?

Definitely. Actually, one of the reasons why my stream was sort of family-friendly for a really long time— I've sort of eased off the word family-friendly because it actually excludes people who don't identify like younger people who don't identify like that. But it's because I want people to realize that there's things you can do with your music, that there's more avenues for self-expression, that music is something that you should be able to participate in actively as a practicing member, as a practicing musician. It doesn't have to be Carnegie Hall level classical musicianship. I myself will probably never perform at Carnegie Hall.

Uh, I know.

Yeah, really, like, this is it. The world, the world will change significantly before that happens, I think. But do you know what I mean? It's about showing people that there's different, uh, there's different things you can do, there's places you can be, that you don't need to be told where and how you can express it. And Twitch is not even known as a music platform. Twitch is a gaming platform technically, or, you know, what people— people branded as one. But here I am, and, and there's a lot of people like me who are doing the same thing, and it's a lovely community of people who like to share things. Uh, if I— and the main thing I would say is that you cannot— you cannot go into any of these things thinking as a business to begin with, because none— I think I didn't turn a meaningful revenue money until 2 years in. So it was all just hardcore passion. It was like, sure, after work I'll get home, I'll set up some cameras, I'll set up my microphones, and then I'll go. And after every stream, I had to pack it away because I was teaching on that instrument the next morning.

Yep.

And it was just literally like that for over a year. It's basically you're being your own startup. And live streaming is— was— it was a— it's a crazy ride. It was the First, it was the first thing I'd done where firstly you can go backwards between one day and another by like 60%, and then you could just be sitting there in a slump for like months or even a year. And it actually happened to me before. I changed my timetable to become more healthy, and, uh, and then I just sort of like threw away like two-thirds of my audience and just sat there because I couldn't come to watch anymore. And then I was, I was like going, oh, okay, so now I can't pay my bills anymore, you know, that kind of thing. And so you really need to actually love the medium and, and sort of like what you're doing on it, because that's the only thing that's going to keep you going long term. Like with anything, it's sustainability. Uh, the other thing is like there's lots of ways you can express yourself, and some people will find that they're better at producing really beautiful things on YouTube, and then you don't have that stress of constantly sitting there and being tied to your machine for like ages and ages and ages every single day. And then you can still get interaction. That's actually— I'm not very good at YouTube, sadly. I would like to be better at it because These are all complementary things, so I'm not discouraging people from trying Twitch. What I'm saying is, if you try Twitch and you find it's not for you, then you should try different platforms. You should try Instagram, you should try Twitter, you should try YouTube, you should try and find things. These tools, these platforms are there, uh, they did— they, they are currently still pretty democratic. They, you know, they're a bit equal. They allow us all to have a go, and, uh, and you should have a go. We should all have a go because, uh, you shouldn't have— we should not settle here for sitting there and waiting our turn in the established structures. That's what I think.

I'm looking at the time. I think we need to start wrapping it up. Is there anything else you guys wanted to get to?

I was going to ask, would you ever consider performing again in the concert setting, like in the concert hall? But you just answered, like, no Carnegie Hall, no, you're not interested.

So Part of it is because— part of it is actually structural. Like, there's so many things I want to do with, uh, I'm going— I'm actually working on some cover albums. I've released an original album. I'm actually sort of like working on improving those things because everything— I believe very much so in experiential learning and development things. And I know that the more of these I do, the better I'll get at it, and then I'll get my workflows down and so on. So I'm just battling my own inertia, actually. The reason why there aren't cover albums already is because she just sheer inertia. But, uh, like, part of that with a classical, a classical concert— I don't think I'll do classical concerts anymore. I, I did work with, um, with some people to present series of them, you know, before Twitch. But now this is like post-Twitch, this is current Twitch, like, you know. So it, it's— I no longer have the 6 hours to practice a program every day. I wouldn't be satisfied performing Yeah, I'm— because I'm performing different things now, so I wouldn't be satisfied with the things that I'll bring in the traditional arena. I think there are other people who are doing that far better than I can now, and I've invested myself in this other thing, which is— I don't even know what it is, honestly, but it's fun and I'm, I'm having a blast doing it. So I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna keep going with like a blade of glass wherever we go.

I just had a couple of things that I want to address before we all leave. One thing is that I, I know you have Asian background and you live in— or you're from Australia, you lived in the US. Uh, what is your audience like on Twitch? Like, do you have—

oh, it changes. Yeah, are you able to see? Yes. Yeah, so Twitch gives you statistics for every single stream you do, right? So, uh, but basically almost half of it comes from the US. And then the second biggest one is actually France.

Wow.

Which is interesting because I don't speak French well at all and I never use it on stream. But Twitch is very big in France and some of the, the French streamers have, um, come to visit me with their communities. And so that's why the representation is really high. And then it's like a big smattering all through Europe Europe, and Canada is fairly high too. And then all the way down near the bottom of about 7 to 9% is Australia, despite me being Australian. And that's because of the times I stream. I stream at really weird times for Australians.

I see.

Yeah, trying to reach the other continents.

But so is— do you think Twitch is more popular like in certain part of the world than other?

Like, definitely.

You're saying there's no— in Asia there's there's not too many followers at all.

Absolutely.

Twitch is, Twitch is sort of like a neophyte in Asia. They're trying to work on it. And actually in Southeast Asia, like in Oceania, like Australia, New Zealand, it's the main one, but it's also still doesn't really have brand recognition and penetration yet. It's still what they will consider an up-and-comer. Uh, so for example, if you lived in Southeast Asia or if you lived in the Middle East, or I think Facebook's actually the place to be. And I don't know what the stats are for YouTube. Like I said, that's a black hole to me. I only really know Facebook and Twitch. So depending on where you live in the world, where you're listening to this podcast from, that may impact on what platform you want to be on as well. But you should just try all of them.

And you think there's a big community of like classical musicians or you're the only one right now?

Oh, you know what? When I first started, I was the only DMA holder on the platform. But now I think there's 4. Or 5 people who are taking it pretty seriously. And then there's like, there's some really crazy CVs on there. There's a man who— Takeyoshi. He's actually educated for— he's got a degree from the Mozartium of Salzburg, and he plays harp and he plays piano, and he says he plays piano badly, but it's a professional level. And it's all extremely polished. You can find something you like. People practice on the platform on Twitch while they're getting ready for their IRL gigs. And things like that. If you like serious classical piano, there's people who focus on that specifically. I used to have, I think the standard just keeps going higher because it's a global thing. So anything that's global, you kind of have to sort of, you know, again, keep adapting. And so I think I don't even have the only concert grand on the platform. There's actually two and there may be more in the near future. So, you know, it just, it keeps moving. And so as the platform keeps developing and the community within it keeps developing, more and more of this stuff will actually become very normal, I think. Very normal. I'm just sort of like a little bit ahead of the curve on throwing all my money into a giant technological pit.

So it's time for rapid fire questions.

All right, brain's fast enough for this. Here we go.

All right, so it's a rapid fire, so you gotta go chop chop chop quickly. All right, so are we ready? The first question: So what is your favorite food?

Fish.

Cats or dog? Dog. Dog.

All right.

What is your word to— or words to live by?

Uh, if you're— if you're— hang on, wait, mouth got stuck. Words to live by. If you're too comfortable, you can't grow. That's right.

What is the most important quality you look for in people?

Just being genuine. You want them to be genuine, right? You won't always like who they are, but at least you know who they are.

Exactly, yes. So as opposed to that, what is the worst quality in people you want to stay away from?

Well, clearly, like, when you can't trust what anything they said. A lack of— an inability to trust them. So untrustworthiness.

Very cool. All right, we're gonna keep on going. Name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead.

There's a lady called Dr. Sheila Woodward and Dr. Christine Logan. These are mentors of mine who have really had a massive shape— shaping on my career. And I would like— I would say Pablo Casals, although he's just springing to mind because I keep remembering this one anecdote where they say, why are you still practicing at the age of 80-something? He goes, because I think I'm still getting better.

That's a huge one. That's a great one.

I love that one.

That was really cool.

All right, now being 83 years old, not that so old, which historic figure, composer, or do you want to learn or take lessons from if she or he were alive?

Franz Liszt, because so much of the stuff we do is firecracker, you know, technique and stuff like that. He's the man who just married all of them together.

Oh my gosh, so many people use friends list. Which historic figure, uh, do you want to hang out with at the bar if he or she were alive?

Okay, this one's a bit weird. The first person that came to mind was George Washington.

Cool.

At least I'm more than one dimension, one and a half dimension.

I guess, uh, you're not gonna be eating a lot of corn nuss with his wooden teeth.

That's funny.

And the last one, what other instrument would you like to be able to play besides piano?

Actually, violin.

Oh, all right, my turn. Name one piece in your current playlist.

Ah, Spirited Away for a Price, which is also known as Chihiro's Waltz by Joe Hisaishi.

Okay, uh, what about a book title you're currently reading?

Mm, I've just taken delivery of How to Be a Master Negotiator.

Okay. Oh, I heard of that book.

This question always annoys people. You only get one song or piece to listen to for the rest of your life. What is it?

Muse, Exogenesis Symphony. It's in three parts, so hopefully that counts.

Okay, we'll take it. And fill in the blank: music is blank.

Oh my God, you just invoked, evoked my music philosophy course. Music is organized noise. Organized noise, yeah.

Organized noise, good one.

I'm sure you could expand on that for another whole podcast episode.

That's right, probably next time.

I think that's one of the best, the best things that came out of a doctorate was the ability to just talk about things for way too long.

Well, we have enjoyed every word.

Yes, I've enjoyed being here. Thanks so much, guys.

Thank you, Jonathan, for joining our show today, and thank you to the audience for tuning in.

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Hope to see you all for the next episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song.

Bye everybody! Thank you so much, Jonathan!

Thank you!