Season 2, Episode 4, Part 2: Claire Marie Lim - Music Technologist, Educator...

You're listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they're bringing the piano into the 21st century.

Last time we spoke to music technologist Claire-Marie Lim about her creative process and the integration of classical foundations with modern genres and technology. And now, the conclusion. How did you learn production? Was it through Berklee? Was it YouTube videos? Because it's really top-notch.

Yeah, thank you so much, Eric. That means a lot. I'll be very honest, um, I think I'm— I grew the most after I was done with college, um, and I think it's because college gave me a lot of the, the tools that I had, but it, it was still— it still took me time to learn them, right? Like, I listened back to a lot of, like, the, the pieces that I made while I was still a college student, and it's like, yeah, they're okay, but you can definitely hear, like, the beginnings of Doltric trying to poke around and being like, "What is this doing?" Which is not to say that I didn't understand things. I understood things conceptually, like okay, this is how this synthesizer works, or this is how this compressor works, or whatever it is. This is how that sound engineering type of thing works. But being able to just put my nose to the grindstone and work at it, that really came after college. And I think it was just a lot of practice and actually this is maybe the biggest tip I could share, if there's a biggest tip. I started using my ears a lot more. I don't know if— and this is a very weird sort of thing to say as well, I think, but growing up as a pianist, even though I did do a lot of classical piano stuff, my ears were not super strong. Like for example, I would play a piece and if I were to mess up halfway, I would be totally lost because I'd be like, if I memorized it, right? Like I memorized, like I know a piece by Brahms or something, play the thing, and I use that as an example just because the harmonies are so beautiful, right? But it's like, if you forget something, that's it. You're like totally out of it. Versus now, like it's funny, I actually revisited this piece not long ago. I'm thinking of the intermezzo in A minor— uh, A major, like Op. 118, but I played that back when I was much, much younger, and I remember having like a total brain fart where I gave up halfway because I couldn't remember the piece. I revisited it a couple of months ago and I managed to play it, and this time I was like, "Wait, this is that chord. This is this chord, la la la." So I started having a lot of these more like connect— more like solid connections between what I was listening to and what I was actually playing and doing. And the reason I bring about this anecdote of like using the ears is because I think being a classically trained musician took me a lot away from relying on the ears and instead relying on eyes for notation. But the moment I started doing a lot of the listening, that helped a lot also with my production stuff, because then I would be listening to a song and I'd be like, "Okay, yes, that's a very cool synthesizer part." Okay, so we know it's a synthesizer, but what kind of wave is it made with? Is it like a saw wave or is it like a sine wave or whatever? And also, is it coming in very quickly? Like, does it have a very fast attack like a piano or is it more like fading in? And then what kind of effects does it have? Does it have reverb? Does it have a delay on it or a filter or something? And kind of being able to use that part of the listening toolkit to apply that to electronic music helped me realize that, "Okay, so I know what that sound sounds like. Now I'm looking in my production software and it sounds like that, which doesn't sound like the original. So how do I get closer to that sound?" And that was really something that I only developed after college. I was developing beginnings of that as a student, but it was really when I, you know, really started doing a lot of this regular practice and opening my ears very literally to stuff that my production, I think, got a lot better. So I don't know if that helps, Ari. That was like a very roundabout way of saying that.

Oh yeah. Yeah, no, it makes total sense to me. I mean, you're basically talking about the difference between playing music versus making music, right?

Totally.

Yes. Yeah.

Have you ever heard of, I think, Sintorial.

Do you know that? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

Right, because I tried a few lessons in that where they give you a synth sound and then you have to try to make it yourself. And I knew I was bad, but I didn't think I was that bad. It's really hard. But I feel like this is the modern equivalent of ear training, right?

Yeah, it totally is. And that's actually things that I do with my students. So if any of my students are listening to this, which they might, it's like, now you know where it comes from. Now you know why we do the thing. Yeah, we'll play a sound, or sometimes it'll be, um, something that they bring too. They bring to the table. So they're like, hey, there's this new song that that's on the radio, let's listen to it and let's kind of think a little bit about how that works. And sometimes it's not even a sound, but it could be something like the processing on a vocal, for example. So like the singer's voice, like how are they processing his or her voice or their voice, right? Like how— what kind of effects do they put on, you know, their vocal chain in that case? And that's a part of the ear training too, listening to all of these different artists' types of sounds and then being, how do we recreate that if we want to?

Instrument. So I'm very curious about this, um, Ableton, um, sorry, I have to read, I'm so old.

That's okay.

You know, the Ableton keypad. Yeah, can you show us if you have in front of you?

Absolutely.

So this is something, this is an instrument that's called the Ableton Push, and it works very interestingly because the layout will change depending on what you want it to be, which is, it's kind of fun. The cool part about it is that— let me see if I can also share my sound. So the cool part about this too is that it's not just specific to one type of sound, so it could pretty much be like any sound that you want it to. At the moment, I've got some kind of electric piano sound pulled up. But that's how you kind of play that. And I don't know if anyone plays guitar. Maybe some of the listeners will play guitar, but this particular layout is very similar to guitar. So each note that's directly above each other is a fourth above each other. So for example, that's your major chord, that's F, that's G. So you can play a lot of these chords everywhere. But yeah, this is my main controller that I like using a lot. The main reason why I do it is because of what I mentioned just now, which is that it doesn't— oops, sorry, let me move my mic. The main reason why I like playing it so much is because you can have different types of sounds, right? The electronic piano— electric piano is one of them at the moment. But I'd love to get a suggestion from like any of y'all. Would you like to hear a different instrument? Maybe we can find something else.

Something weird.

Yeah. OK, cool.

Something out there.

Yeah, maybe something weird, right? So I'm going to browse for a different sound, maybe like— let's do an effect. So, OK, cool.

May I ask, Claire?

Yeah.

Are these sounds loaded into the controller or is it separately on your computer?

Yeah, so these are all— that's a great question, Eric. So these are, um, all in the software. So in the software Ableton Live, you have to connect this to the software for it to work. So very honestly, like, if I didn't connect this to my computer, it would just be like a really expensive paperweight, like a $700 paperweight. Um, but yeah, let's see what happens if we load like this one up. That one was kind of fun. So let's see.

Cool.

So we got some lasers now going.

That's fun.

Yeah, if we wanted to, we could also do something that's totally different. So maybe let's do— yeah, let's do some drums. So you can do some drum kits as well, which is kind of fun. Let's see if we can do— yeah, let's do a classic 808 thing.

Load that. Cool.

So now the layout has changed, right? We're not seeing those notes anymore, but now we're seeing drums. So I can do drums over here. So it's really flexible, it's one of my favorite parts about using this instrument. It is created by the company Ableton that also creates the software Ableton Live. So that's the software that I was connecting to my, that is in my computer that I'm connecting to at the moment. So it integrates really well with that software. Yeah, that's the instrument.

Awesome, thank you for the demonstration.

Thank you. Is this the future of piano keyboard? I don't know. Are we gonna forget about this black and white and then Is that the future?

I don't know, honestly, that's a great question, Gimy. And I think that for— I often tell my students that like a lot of the time it's not so much, um, the same instrument, but I try to help them think of it as a totally different instrument because the piano is one thing, um, and then the piano keyboard synthesizers are also a different thing, and then you have this sort of thing, right? Because I remember, for example, this is a little bit of a side anecdote, but the very first time that I touched a synthesizer, I thought it was gonna be the same because it was a piano keyboard, right? But I basically had to relearn all of my technique because the action is so different. So when you play it, it's like, it's a totally different type of thing. It's like springs instead of the actual, you know, hammer action that you have, so it feels really, really different. And I remember at first I hated it 'cause I was like, "Ugh, what's this like plastic thing?" So I hated it at first, but after a while you kind of get used to it. So that's why I think a little bit about this sort of instrument, being totally different, and that's a little bit of what we do at Berklee College of Music too. The program that I teach in specifically is called the Electronic Digital Instrument Program, so a lot of my students do have a keyboard background, in part because we do use keyboard controllers in their instruments too, but some of them will use Push, and some of them will use other instruments that look a little more different. Also, there's lots of different instruments too, so it really depends on the student, and that's why we think of it as a totally separate vein. So I think maybe it is the future, but I don't think it'll replace the piano. I think it'll all kind of grow together, if that makes sense.

Yeah, so what's your advice for classical musicians who are interested in broadening their field or horizons?

Yeah, that's a really great question. I think a lot of the time it's just being open, and this is also thinking back to my experience but some of the experiences of my students too. Sometimes we get so locked in the things that we're used to that the moment we step out of the comfort zone, it's so jarring that we just freeze up a little bit. So I think being open is really interesting. If people are interested and they come from a classical piano background and you want to get maybe a little bit of insight into something that could be kind of a little still classical but going into the more electronic side, there's a really wonderful set of albums albums by Wendy Carlos called Switched on Bach that I would highly recommend. This was done back in the '60s and the '70s, but basically Wendy Carlos, she's an amazing electronic musician, one of the very first electronic musicians to do this. She did entirely orchestrated synthesizer versions of pieces by Bach. So for example, there's the two-part inventions in A minor, for example. She did that, but instead of having just the two voices for right hand and left hand piano, she reorchestrated everything so that it would be like, okay, there's like a high synth part playing the right hand in this section. Later on when the left hand enters, it's like another type of synthesizer, and it's really, really beautiful. I really encourage people to listen to it. It's called Switched on Bach, and there's, I think, Switched on Bach 1 and then Switched on Bach 2. And then she also did, I think, a version of the Well-Tempered Clavier as well, also in the synthesizer version of stuff. So if people are interested in that, I would highly recommend. Oh, that's great.

So Claire, we're getting a little long now. We still have rapid-fire questions to go. Oh, yes. But I wanted to make sure that we touch on something very important, which you've already alluded to, which is your efforts in activism, right? Because like you said, in our musical field, sometimes they're predominantly white male, historically speaking. So can you talk a little bit about your efforts in this area?

Yeah, specifically, I think a lot of the work that I do, Eric, is related to the field of music tech, but also especially even in just music in general, I think. We see a lot of these, especially even from the classical sphere and the jazz sphere. There's still a lot of non-white people whose voices have yet to be heard. So a lot of the time when I'm working with young people especially, I work a lot with youth and a lot with kids K-12 as well, it's really just about showing up and being there. And it might seem very, very simple and very rudimentary, but even just walking into a classroom, a lot of the time when I've done talks for example, about music and I walk into a classroom and there's a few students who are not white and they're just looking at this random Asian lady who's walked in, it means something to them. And a lot of the time, even after I've done a certain talk at a certain location, I've done music tech work or I've showed them synths and software and stuff like that, there have been students who have come up to me and be like, "Hey, thank you for being here," 'Every other teacher that I've seen or every other person I've seen do this has not looked like me, but now I know it's possible.' And that's pretty much exactly the same thing that happened for me. Apart from, you know, that one night that changed my life with the live electronic music stuff with Disclosure, the other night that I really think about a lot was when I saw an artist called Tokimonsta perform. And Tokimonsta was the very first woman of Asian descent nominated from for a Grammy in the dance and electronic music category. And that was only in 2019. So it's not too long ago. But I saw her perform many years ago when I was still a student. And that was a night where I was like, "She looks like me. This is not impossible." So that meant a lot. And I think about that so much. So that kind of, in a way, was one of the reasons why I try to do a lot of this activism stuff where I try to integrate it into my education. So I'll bring a lot of that element into some of these spaces where I work in. And to be very frank, most of the spaces that I do work in have strong populations of people of color. So it really does make a difference when people see diversity and when they see different representation in different areas of fields. Some things I've tried to do also is when I know that I can't be— I shouldn't be the right person to do this, I try to open it up to someone who should. For example, I recently did something that was focused actually a little bit more on dance music culture, and it was specifically also for a group of students that was more students of color. And I offered it up to one of my other friends who was specifically Black, and he does a lot of like DJ culture and a lot of like history as well. And I said, this is the perfect person to do this. So I think that's also something that we can do as well in our sphere as, you know, educators and just people being aware of what is a good time to show up and when is a good time to show up to a certain group of students who need to see it, or to a certain audience who needs to see it. It doesn't just need to be students, but it could be a different audience. So I try to do a little bit of that as well when I'm working with different groups, not just showing you cool stuff, how to press buttons, but also teaching people a little bit about the more historical side. Or being aware of like the cultural connotations of some of these things that we're working with.

Right. Yeah. Because ultimately everybody has a voice that deserves to be heard, right?

Yeah, totally. And I think for a lot of the, at least from, and this is going back to the younger kids that I work with too, but for a lot of them, I think they don't realize that, um, a lot of these norms exist when they're so young. They, they don't. So, so they're still open to a lot of these ideas. I'm really talking about like super young, like 4-year, 5-year-olds. The reason why I think about them is because one of the incidents that did for sure shape a lot of what I'm doing now is I used to tour a lot with this group called Alphabet Rockers. Shout out to Alphabet Rockers. They're a Grammy— double Grammy-nominated hip-hop group that does a lot of hip-hop but for kids. So they do a lot of social justice types of work, and a lot of the audience is in that age group. So it's like 4 or 5-year-olds, sometimes a little bit older, like teens and stuff like that. But there was one concert we did for these like kindergarteners or like first graders or something, and I was doing the onstage DJing and playback stuff for them. After the show, we had a meet and greet, and every single one of the kids that came up to me and asked about stuff or like wanted to say hi, they were all girls. And I think if I hadn't been a woman, that wouldn't have happened. And then like all the boys were like in the back, and, and I just thought of like, imagine all of these opportunities where maybe there wasn't a woman here and it was just the boys that were coming up and all of these girls wouldn't have the chance or the courage really to acknowledge like, "Hey, I wanna find out more about what she's doing or what they're doing on stage and stuff." So I think a lot about these actual practical things happening. Not practical, but like real life situations happening and the real effect that it has. On a person just 'cause I think of the real effect that it had on me at the time. So yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't wanna go off on too big a tangent here, but that's the thing. I know sometimes people get down on social justice and there's a lot of fighting in the news and stuff like that, but we're talking about real people, right? And real experiences. When somebody comes up to you like that and says, you know, you inspired me.

Yeah.

That's so meaningful and so powerful.

Totally.

So kudos to you for doing that, for taking your platform.

Thanks for letting me share that. I don't often get to talk about that. So thank you.

Yeah. Well, we believe it's important too. We gotta wrap up pretty soon, but I just wanted to ask you quickly before we move on to rapid fire, I think, as a music technologist, what do you see in the future? What's the future of music?

Yeah. Wow. That's such a tough question, Eric.

The future—

Well, we want your perspective.

Yeah, totally. Um, very honestly, I think there's, there's so many possibilities that I don't think I'd be able to touch all of them. But at least from one thing in my current, like, you know, line of sight, I guess, is that there's a lot of more people who I think will have the courage to try things out without all of these, like, barriers, uh, before them. So for example, I'm thinking back to, um, you know, this is a little bit more of an older school stuff too, but even going back to the studio, just now Clara mentioned, like, she has this setup as a studio, but like 10 years ago that might not have been the case for a lot of people, like they wouldn't have been able to do that on their own and have the courage to, you know, do things for themselves. So I think there's going to be a lot of that. I hesitate to use this word, but I think it makes sense in this case, like a more democratic approach to music creation. It's like everyone kind of has the same tools and, you know, it won't always be the same, but even just starting, say, with phones, like if you have a phone, being able to use that as part of your creative process, creative technology process. We get having your phone be your first foray into making sound or like, you know, building beats and stuff like that. I think that's going to be something that will definitely be in the future. And to that end, I think just even more diversity in the music that we're hearing, not just from the— from people also, but even just styles. Stylistically, I think a lot of people when they make music— and this is something that I tell to my students and my mentees as well, but it's like, it's definitely not— and it might be a little bit cliché, but it's not an understatement to say that no one else is gonna make the music that you're gonna make, because it's true. No one else is you, right? So if you don't make something, no one else is gonna do it for you, and no one else is gonna make it in the exact same way. So I think to that end, there's gonna be a lot more different types of music styles that we'll be hearing. Sure, it might sound similar, but I think there's a lot of power in everybody kind of realizing their own version of the music that they're hearing in their heads. So I think that's kind of what I see in the immediate future. I think there's so many possibilities though, like even the crazy music tech developments that are developing all the time. I was just talking to some of my other friends the other day about this, but now it's not just physical controllers, right? But I did a little bit of work with this pair of gloves called the Mimoo gloves that are basically gloves, but they're controlling music. So if you do something like if you make a certain gesture, it plays a certain chord or it puts on a certain effect. So there's that too, which is like, maybe that's an example of how crazy things will get in the most wonderful sort of way. Wow, blew my mind.

Sorry to interrupt.

Yeah, no, I saw that. I saw your video of that. That was cool.

Oh, thanks, Eric.

Yeah.

I had no idea that that was happening.

It's really weird. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's weird in the best sort of ways. And I mean that in like a very like, you know, wonderful, in awe, type of we. But yeah, that's just a fraction, I think, of stuff that people are developing now. So who knows what'll happen next?

Great, great. Well, we, uh, we really appreciate your insight and your perspective, so thank you for sharing that with us. So we're gonna move on to our rapid-fire questions. All right, so this is short and sweet, to the point. All right, and we'll, we'll take turns, the three of us. So I'll go first. Number 1: What is your comfort food?

Oh my god, oh no, oh no, this is terrible. Okay, I'll go for Singaporean food, char kway teow. Okay, yeah, okay.

Number 2, cats or dogs?

Dogs. Oh no, cats.

Oh no, you've been outed. No, you said dogs first. I don't know if you can take that back. Oh no. What is your word or words to live by?

Ah, okay. Work hard, stay humble, don't be late by Iskandar Ismail. Yeah, I know it's short. It's supposed to be rapid fire, but I just want to say that Iskandar Ismail is a Singaporean composer who inspired me very much back in the day. So that was a quote that I took from my mentor, who was his mentee, my mentor Julian Wong. Hi, Julian! Julian's watching.

Yeah, wonderful. Thank you. Um, what is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Wow, oh my God, these are so deep.

It's Yukimi's question. I didn't— I can't take that.

That's good, Yukimi. Thank you. Um, uh, patience.

Very important for sure. And by the same token, what is the worst quality in people that you want to stay away from?

Cool. And maybe this is a little bit of myself too. Bad-temperedness. Like losing your temper.

Okay.

Name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead.

Oh my God. Let's see. My grandfather and my mentor when I was— Mr. Xiao, my mentor when I was in high school. Doing music, and also Toki Monster.

Which historical figure or composer do you want to learn or take lessons from if she or he were alive?

Probably Nadia Boulanger. I love her ideas about sound. Yes, Nadia Boulanger.

Great.

Which historical figure composer do you wish to hang out with at the bar if if she or he were alive?

Oh, interesting. Huh. Well, maybe Bach. I don't know. I think it would be fun to chat with him about all of the same things that he's written many times. So probably Bach.

Well, I want the Bach too, so we can all hang out. So my turn. Name one piece in your current playlist.

Oh, one piece in my current playlist. I've been listening a lot to a tune called Never Enough by Disclosure. So that's one piece.

All right, maybe we'll list that in our Spotify as well. Name a book title you're currently reading.

Oh, I'm reading quite a few. Oh dear. Well, let's see, what would be a good one? The reason I hesitated was because the one that initially came to mind, and you can feel free to edit this out, but it's called Assholes. That's why I was like, okay, I probably shouldn't say that like on the— it's actually in the background over there, whoops. If that's okay, then that's the book that I've been currently reading. It's very fun. It talks a lot about the human condition actually and about like narcissism, which is why I thought it was interesting. Another book that I've been reading is— revisiting actually was Becoming by Michelle Obama. So that's That's been another one that I've been looking at too. But yeah, feel free to edit that first one.

We'll keep both, maybe we'll beat you. You get only one song or piece to listen to for the rest of your life, what is it?

Oh wow, that one's tough. You know, maybe it would be, it would probably be the, yeah, I think I will say, I wasn't sure about this, but I'm pretty sure the Arthur Rubinstein version of Intermezzo in A minor. Me is like one of my favorites all the time. It's one of the reasons that I still go back to a lot of classical music stuff, even if the rest of my world is electronic, because it puts me into a good space.

Yes, that's exciting. We have to talk more. Rubinstein is also my, you know, personal god. So music is blank. What is the blank? Fill in the blank.

Music is a world of possibilities.

Awesome! Wow, that is great.

Wonderful answer.

Ding ding ding ding ding!

You win! All right, thank you so much, Claire. Before we, uh, before we wrap up, do you want to talk a little bit about Beattober and what it is?

Yeah, totally. Thanks, Eric. Um, thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. But yeah, Beattober, um, So I'm currently doing this October-long project called Beattober where I make a little bit of music every day. Previous years, I tried to do a little bit of a theme for every year, so this year I'm actually doing a new song every day, which is not killing me yet. We'll see how it is by the time this podcast gets released. We will see if I'm still alive. But yeah, if folks want to follow me, that's gonna be @doltric, so D-O-L-L-T-R-I-C-K on all social media platforms. Or if you look on the greater internet, It is D-O-L-L-T-R exclamation point C-K in all lowercase letters. Sometimes the spelling throws people a little bit off, but as long as you do the all lowercase letters and the exclamation point, you should find me. So that's a little bit of that. Yeah.

All right. Well, thank you so much. That's going to wrap up this episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Claire Marie Lim. Thank you, Claire, for joining us today and sharing all your wonderful thoughts on so many different subjects. And once again, I will remind the audience, if you want to find out more about Claire, her website is clairemarieLim.com. And she also has a website for Dolltrick specifically at dolltrick.com. Check the, the description for the links.

If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review on whatever podcasting platform you use. If you are watching us from YouTube, remember to hit the thumbs up button and be sure to subscribe to our channel. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. The links are in the description below.

If you have feedback for us, please leave it in the comments or DM us via social media, or you can also email us at thepianopodnyc@gmail.com.

And we will see you all for the next episode of The Piano Pod.

Bye everybody, and thank you, Claire.

That was awesome.