Season 3, Episode 1: Edna Golandsky, Founder of The Golandsky Institute

Welcome back to the very first episode of the new season, Season 3 of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song.

I'm Clara Zhang.

For anyone listening or watching our show for the first time, welcome! Clara and I are both classical pianists and piano teachers from New York City. This podcast is for anyone who plays the piano for fun, loves listening to piano music, or for someone who is currently pursuing a career in piano or works in the industry professionally.

In each episode, we interview a guest speaker who has been breaking exciting new ground in the music industry. Before getting started, we want to thank our amazing fans and listeners for tuning in. Please rate our show and review it on Apple Podcasts because every rating and review will help people find our show.

So Clara, I'm very excited about the guest of this new season's first, uh, first episode Ms. Edna Golanski. She's a founder and artistic director of the Golanski Institute. I know you've wanted to interview her on our show for quite some time, and finally she is here, and you know her personally.

Oh, that's right.

Yes. So tell us how you know Edna.

Oh wow, it's kind of going back for years, you know. I studied, uh, like I learned about her, the Tapman approach, when I was in grad school in Massachusetts. Back, you know, 12, 13 years ago, and I was, you know, probably not practicing as properly, so I had a little knot, and my teacher told me about it, and I did some research, and I remember this name, you know, and I remember Ms. Golinski was in New York, but I didn't know how to find her, and fast forward a few years later, I was sitting in this seminar in the middle, across the street from Madison Square Garden, Madison Square Garden, and then she was like sitting right next to me.

Wow.

Actually, before I even studied with her, attended her summer festival in Princeton. So it was such a beautiful experience. Yeah, I took some lessons with her. I did some workshops. I also attended the symposium in Princeton.

Oh, wow. Great. So then tell us your experience with the Toppman technique.

Right. So the Toppman technique, basically, in my personal view, I've heard quite a bit also the backstories of how— well, I'm sure she's going to tell us all the juicy details, how this even truly— but for me, it's something I feel like it goes so in down to the basics so that anything that was not corrected from the childhood needs to be corrected before you release all the pain. Right. And I remember this one day when we were at Imprunst, all the pianists were sitting together and practicing C major scale, and eventually you just could not not have any sort of pressure. All your pressure just goes away and you feel kind of light, you know.

Wow, that sounds really interesting. Wow. I myself learned a specific piano technique using a natural arm way, body way to play the piano from my teacher back when I was getting my master's degree and on, and from which I really truly benefited as a pianist and teacher. So I really can't wait to hear more about this Taubman approach and how Edna decided to share it among other fellow pianists by creating the this amazing training institution for all pianists and pedagogues.

Yeah, me too. I'm so excited to be able to reconnect with her after quite some years. And yeah, that's cool.

So let's get the show started.

Yay!

You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.

We're delighted to introduce our our guest of Season 3, Episode 1, Ms. Edna Golinsky, founder and the artist director of the Golinsky Institute. Ms. Golinsky is a world-renowned piano pedagogue and the leading exponent of the Tuttmann approach. She has earned wide acclaim throughout the United States and abroad for her pedagogical expertise and for using the Tuttmann piano technique. Performers and students from around the world come to study coach and consult with Ms. Golinski. She has a long-established reputation for the expert diagnosis and treatment of problems such as fatigue, pain, and serious injuries, including carpal tunnel syndrome and tendinitis. She has been a featured speaker at numerous music medicine conferences and developed video instruction— instructional materials with more than a million viewers. Edna, welcome to the show. We're so honored to have you.

Yay, thank you so much.

My pleasure to be here. And I met Clara how many years ago?

Oh, I think when I first opened the studio, you introduced me to, uh, Tally, who built my piano, rebuilt my piano. So that was, uh, I believe 2012, 2013. Oh my goodness. In our pre-recording, in the introductory, I was telling Yukimi how I met you. Oh my goodness, I've been a fan for such a long time. I told you my story in the very beginning. I learned about you from a book when I was in, well, in the Taubman as well, when I was in grad school in Massachusetts. And when I was having some pain in my back and my teacher told me, and then one day we just met in the middle of, like, across the street from Madison Square Garden, right? It was just such a beautiful— so yeah, we want to, we want to learn so much about how you got to who you are. And, uh, so why don't we start from the very beginning? We would love to know what is your training like, uh, as a youth. And, uh, later on, I believe you attended Juilliard first before you went to Tottmann.

Um, my training was like many people, you know. I had— I grew up in Israel, and that was my first training, and it was with a Russian teacher, you know, wonderful, wonderful teacher, and put a lot into me. I had an opportunity at age 16. I had relatives here who knew I was gifted, and they suggested that I come to study in the States. I knew nothing about Juilliard or anything. They just said that there was a very good music school. And I will audition to it. In other words, I was not auditioned. You know, I was, I was not there and I came and I auditioned and they accepted me to the prep division at the time. And I studied with a wonderful teacher, also Jane Carlson, for 2 years. And she brought me to Rosina Levine, who accepted me and I worked with her. She was already, you know, quite old and I decided You know, after a while to change teachers, I went to Adel Marcus.

Okay. Yeah.

And then another 6 years was there. So that's what people are very impressed with, right? It's very good credentials. But, um, along my second year of my master's degree, I heard from my roommate who was also at Juilliard about this teacher. Who had the kind of scientific approach and had information that was widely known. And she started working with her. And eventually, after talking about it and talking about it and talking about it, I went for a lesson. And I was, I was quite amazed because I just thought that what I learned was enough, except— and I accepted the fact that I used to get tired sometimes, that there was certain literature that I would not touch, but that for the rest of my life I had to practice, you know, 6 to 8 hours a day, and the problems were solved by practicing more. And suddenly I went for a lesson and my roommate had quite a few limitations. She was good within certain literature. And I hear her asking questions. We were not really allowed to ask questions. The answers were not really answers. They were basically practice more, or maybe you tense in your everyday life. Answers like that. Just practice more. And here somebody was giving rational explanation to what was missing, showing more. You know, in life it's not enough to say don't do something. Okay, what should I do? Showing, giving suggestions. My roommate, even with her limitations, was quiet. I would say she was solid. You know, it was— she was a solid player. She had problems and limitations, but in retrospect I realized those were not so serious. They just needed that kind of input. And she was able to, you know, to do it quite quickly. And I heard tremendous difference in her playing in a very quick, very short time. She was playing difficult pieces that she never even imagined she could play. So it got me interested. And that's how I, you know, I went to— I took some lessons. And I saw that there was a whole body of information. There was a whole knowledge that was quite amazing. I didn't know how much there was, but I decided to finish my degree, not continue for the doctoral program, and to learn what there was to learn that she offered. And that started me on my road The more I learned, the more I saw there was, and the difference was day and night. So that's— I became, you know, I became the disciple and wanted to know everything that there was. And it was my suggestion to start a summer institute, which ended up being the Tauman Institute, so that people— my feeling was that people should know about it. And by just going for lessons and doing, you know, what is done, having students, uh, that it was not enough. It was kind of a universal type of message that should be available. You want it, you take it. You don't want it, you don't take it. But just to have to, to, to be able to disseminate, uh, what musicians needed, you know, that it's not, it's the pain and it's the fatigue and it's a tendonitis and all of that, but it's the insecurities.

That's right.

So the inability to actually grow because you have those things in the way.

Yeah, I actually saw this quote by Mrs. Taubman. I consider her, as in you, Mrs. Edna, the leading authority on the Taubman approach to instrumental playing, which is a big trust from her. And also, what sort of mentorship you had, because It's a once in a million thing where, you know, to be able to find that sort of teacher and mentor that who changes your life, right? So she had a big trust in you. So can you please tell her a little bit of training with Mrs. Toutman?

You know, sometimes you're lucky in life to come across a person or type of work or whatever that just clicks. It's like clicking with another human being. You know, it can click. This work somehow spoke to me. In a way that made me really delve into it. I just wanted to know anything I could learn. And very quickly, and I happened to also, you know, was a good student and a gifted one, if I may say, and I think I became very devoted, you know, to the work and I made good progress. So she quickly, when she would give a lecture, she would say, "Can you demonstrate?" So she would talk, let's say, about fingering or what is the right motions and whatever, and I would demonstrate and explain. So it became more and more part of, you know, I mean, that was a way to really understand something even further. So I was doing all of that, you know, whatever she did, you know, I would go and demonstrate. And sometimes it was in another country. And that was part of my learning. I mean, I had lessons every week. Whatever she told me, I would come home before teaching and I would try it. I would make notes and I would try it out immediately so that I wouldn't forget it because, you know, it's very experiential. You have to feel it in your hands. It's the words, a way to get into it, but you have to, you know, to feel it in your hands. And so I did it, you know, from week to week and then I started demonstrating And then I was from early on wanting to share it with others. It wasn't just going to a piano teacher. It was really learning something that has a universal appeal to all pianists at all levels, at any age. This is— you have to start kids, right? There are certain very basic things that I know you're probably going to ask me, what would be, you know, what would be the things that you would recommend to someone who, you know, who's starting? In other words, I learned that this is— the problems that pianists experience are preventable, that we don't get to the point that we need a treatment, that the so-called treatment should be a way to grow, to develop, to be able to play pieces that you didn't feel you could play before. It's almost too good to be true. It took me a while to actually trust.

Right.

I would think I'm learning all of this. And then sometimes she always said, whenever something, practice it, and if it still doesn't feel 100%, bring it back. No one has ever said that. And I would bring it back and I saw the levels, how something already is better, but underneath something else needs to be, you know, like, like adjusted, uh, that it has that kind of, um, uh, intricacy and, and, and, and that is hard to imagine unless you do it. So I used to think, well, I mean, this is it. I mean, she's explained to me so much and there's still something here. That's probably it. You know, there's no, there's no more.

Right.

For a lesson. And you see, where do you find a teacher to say, you have to, you have to tell me what's bothering you all the time? Because it gave her a clue as to what might be, because a lot of it is not visible. And I would say the lesson, she would tell me something else and adjust. And it was a whole other world still. That it was constant adaptation until it felt really amazing. So it didn't only have to be symptom-free, but really when it's right, it's like people who have it in a very natural way before they often lose it, that it feels like nothing.

Wow. So I am really curious to know The Taubman approach. I have learned a certain technique in my youth, and then, you know, using an arm weight, body weight to play the piano, which helped me. But I'm very curious to know about Mrs. Taubman's approach. Could you tell us?

Well, you know, something to talk about, it will take days. You know what it is, because it's built on, you know, many factors. But, you know, if you go to my website, the institute, my website, you know, there's certain— there's instructional materials that to show some of the groundwork. Now, whatever one of the things in this work that people don't realize is that it has, some of it has to be exaggerated at the beginning in order to be felt because it is a connection of the finger to the hand, to the form in a particular way. It's not just, it's not enough to be, although sometimes I tell, you know, people read and just the idea that it's not isolated fingers, already helps. But then people go to relaxation, which is the other side of the spectrum, and that has its own problems. So, okay, so what does it mean? You know, what does it mean? You know, what does it mean to be free of tension, which doesn't go to the extreme of relaxation where you have tremendous amount of weight and it's, you know, that the fingers— it's hard for the fingers to move, it is heavy. We need to be connected and there is a certain amount of forearm weight, just enough to get the job done. So that's a whole other in-between, like it's the midway. If you do anything with meditation, you know, in Eastern thinking, you know, there is the midway. This work is about the midway. And that's the thing that is missed. We go from tension to all of that to total relaxation. And when I talk about freedom, and I'm writing about it, so at some point there'll be something out, what's the difference between relaxation and freedom? Do we ever think about that possibility? You know, so when we walk, we not— we think when we're free, we call it relaxed because there's no feeling of tension. But if you truly relaxed all the body weight, you couldn't walk. You know, so there is a differentiation there in many, you know, many different ways. So that gives you some idea. And, you know, I get many emails from people who've never taken a lesson and probably maybe will never take a lesson. And they just read something about it, also the 10 DVDs. And, you know, just the materials begin to show people some other possibilities. So it's very hard for me to just give you an explanation of the whole thing, but just in shortly, how do we feel connected? What does it mean to be aligned and coordinated in motion? How do we move quickly? The emotions are quick. How do we get the tone that we want? How do we avoid twisting motions when the thumb or the pinky go into the blacky area? People twist. Once you twist, you're in pain. You're in— and pain is one indication that something is wrong, or even fatigue, or even tension. But okay, what is causing it? What this work is, it's a diagnostic approach that explains what are the root causes rather than dealing— the symptoms are just symptoms of something that is happening on a very basic level. Right.

You might already have answered some of the questions I'm not going to ask, but I have a specific thing. Let's say we talk about finger independence and then arm motion. Are they enemies or no?

Okay.

Can you tell us? Because this is the very confusing part.

Okay. So fingers have to move. That's a fact. The question is, how do they move? So if we talk about just basic ideas, What causes tension? Anybody in the world coming from anywhere in the world who will curl the fingers, this is tension. It pulls on a long flexor, okay, that moves, pulls tightly over the wrist. So we should not curl. When you, when you, okay, so we just shouldn't curl. Okay, so when people don't curl, they go to very often to straight. That doesn't work either. There's the natural, what we call, what's the difference between curling and natural curve? The way the fingers move very easily is this way. So they move easily this way, but when you go sideways from finger to finger and you go like that, there is already a certain amount of stretching, even a little bit. Stretching is one of the root causes for tension. You can relax yourself, you'll still stretch. So you have heavy weight and you're still stretching, okay? And you're using— you usually go to, you know, kind of extreme opening. Okay, open your hand and try to move your fingers. They don't move well. So you're in tension, you're curling, you're stretching, you're playing, you know, with tension. What's causing that tension? You cannot curl your fingers, and the fingers were not meant to move sideways by themselves.

Why?

Okay, when we go up and down the keyboard, we think fingers are moving. Yes, but when they move by themselves and they isolate, you're using a slow muscle. The abductor, the abductor and the adductor. You do that and you feel tension. So it's like we should— we don't even start from the point, okay, what are the movements that cause tension? In her mind, there was— she figured out that if I'm tensing because of stretching, and if knowing some just basic things about muscles, these are the flexor muscles, they move very quickly. But when I'm moving sideways like that, that doesn't move quickly. And it doesn't feel good. So there must be an arm motion that moves me there. In other words, something else has to get me there so that I don't do the things that create problems. Yes, okay, how do I move sideways? Okay, if the hand by itself moves sideways, it twists.

Yeah.

If the arm moves sideways, it doesn't twist, but this is not fast enough. This is still not as fast as the fingers. If the upper arm gets involved, if you do just a little bit of it, you get tired because it's moved by, by a sluggish muscle. It's a heavy part. So this is the logic that started it, which is very simple when you think about it. Okay, so what can move as quickly as the fingers moving like that? And that turned out to be the, the rotational motions. That's how it is. And of course, there's the whole science. Okay, how do you do it? How do you apply it? So what happens in the training? Do you first train people to feel it and it's bigger, you know, in order to feel that freedom? Because what happens even when people relax is the forearm usually is very tight. It just is, you know, it's just, it's almost like a part we go from the finger to the upper arm and what's in between, which actually is what's more directly connected, is not, is not used. So what happens with the training at the beginning, it's a little bit bigger and it's really a complicated process a little bit because people come from different backgrounds. You can turn the arm and the wrist is down. It's already not working. You can turn the arm and there's a little bit of a twist. You can turn the arm and it's not free all the way to the elbow. You know, there could be many things. You can turn the arm and the fingers are still stretching. You need the eye of a very experienced teacher, which is why we train people. You know, so heavily. And we have the certification program, which takes, you know, a while to learn. You learn on yourself, then it's a whole other process to teach others, you know, and to get the right results. On top of it, this, when this is— so this takes away the efforts from the fingers right away. Also, when you drop down and the forearm, there's the little bit of weight that is needed to put the key down. Immediately the tone changes. That goes further into how to produce all different kinds of tones, but immediately it changes. It is big at the beginning most of the time just to free it up, but it's experienced teacher, and I really have to, to emphasize that because I see a lot of that training not being done well and not getting the right results. How to minimize it, how to combine it with the other motions, going to the black area and out in the white area. How do the How do they combine? What are the shaping movements that go on top? So what you see at the end, you see really the, the end of the all the pieces together. It's like seeing a body. You don't see one part and another part, the heart and this and that. You see a combination of the system made up of different parts that works as a whole, and we are human beings. You have a failed organ, you have a problem.

Right.

What happens here, so what we see at the end, this is all to facilitate the motion of the fingers. It's not to replace them. So that they can move, they can do what they do, but honestly, all the things getting sideways, going in and out, getting a little bit higher and lower, which is shaping, they're all done by the forearm. But they move, but what we see at the end all becomes tiny and combined. And as a teacher, you know, I teach people that you have to make sure that as you combine, they are still there, but they become smaller and smaller. What you see, someone moving, fingers moving, that's the end result. But the whole system underneath to make it possible is not seen by the eye. That's the genius of the person who started and said, you know, something doesn't make sense here. I practice for hours, for days, I'm still not secure in some. It was not even pain, there was tension. How come other passages work in, some passages years, and I still don't have the security? So a lot in our field is, what's wrong with you? You know, people come devastated because it's very often the blame is put on them. Something is wrong with them. Well, they're gifted. They are smart, they're practicing, they're doing everything the teacher says, and things don't work. And then in the end, it's their fault. And that is devastating. So one of the things that I say, there's nothing wrong with you, there's something wrong with the way you're playing. That's a whole other thing. And that is fixable. That is totally fixable. Completely. What's really, I would say, the the responsibility on us teachers. If a student doesn't listen, doesn't want, or whatever, you know, no, let's not do it. You know, there's no point. People who come to me want it, and people come to me will do anything, you know, to get it, to get it right as quickly as possible. But, you know, it's, um, this opens a whole world of I can be better than I could ever imagine. Possible. That's what this gives, that this work gives when it's done correctly. So not surprised that I devoted my life because it's very inspirational. And it goes away, you know, for now several decades, you know, I could see, you know, how it could progress because people came, okay, everything is blah blah blah, good, but this passage or this passage, what else can be there? And that's how the work evolved.

Further. Wow, so it's a lifelong learning experience, right? Technique, just as much as we exercise our body. So I'm trying to really incorporate that sort of approach to my students who are much younger, right? But when it comes to technique, they start yawning because it's, oh, it's so boring.

I tell my teachers, you know, I say, don't say something special. In other words, if somebody comes to you, we have all the techniques, curl your fingers from the beginning, right? An apple in the hand, it's already isolate your fingers, the wrist all the way down. Instead of that, you put them, and that's also on the, you know, both websites, you know, 'What's the right height?' Show them how it's the level of the arm so it's not falling back and it's not too high. It's never too this or too that. Just tell them, 'You see how the finger, how the hand is?' You don't talk about, you know, they move together. Give them the idea that they move together. You know, if the wrist is falling or the wrist is too high, show them how in life we don't move like that. In life, we just like, if I went to my head and I want to pick up something, We move like that. That's one piece. So you can give that idea and how when the finger goes down, the form goes with it. You already have them set up, right? Yeah, technique, it's part of the lesson. And then we have a whole system, you know, of how to show, you know, and all of that. But from the beginning, it's not something special, it's how you do it.

Hey guys, we're now officially on Patreon!

Yeah, I'm so excited about our next step on this podcast journey.

Same here. So dear TPP fans, we love what we do and it's been an incredible journey for both of us, Clara and I, for the last 2 years. And we're now in season 3, and more than ever, we really need your support to continue our work by bringing you highly valuable content biweekly by interviewing the A-listers in the industry.

So please go to patreon.com/thepianopod and become part of the TPP community by subscribing to us. With your subscription, you will receive monthly subscriber-only exclusive content from our show.

That's right. And once again, It's patreon.com/thepianopod.

We can't wait to connect with you on Patreon very soon.

Now let's continue with the episode.

Yeah, I remember when I first heard about you, and there were a name— I think they were calling you the Piano Doctor, or I was like, oh, I want to study with the Piano Doctor, you know. And I remember, no, it was a friend who was going through— it was clarinetist actually, and she was also doing Alessandro Technique, and then she also heard about you. Um, so do— how do musicians eventually— how long does it normally take for musicians to really— if somebody is really injured, how long does it take for them to really heal?

So, you know, something— the answer varies, you know, it depends on what type of injury. It depends how well the person learns. That's true. People are able, you know, from the beginning to kind of put aside, you know, what we learned a lifetime, sometimes so many years, and give— you can't combine, you know, you can't like stretch the rotation, you can't move properly in and out and fingers going straight and curl, you know, you have to, you have to do it and most people will. At that point, because they've very often, they come, this is the last stop. They tried doctors, they tried all the different techniques, uh, which like Alexander is good in itself and everything, but it was never meant to solve piano problems. It was meant to get voice back. Uh, and it's fine to be, you know, to be aligned here, but this is a whole other alignment. This is an extension that this work deals with. So you can be aligned with your body, and people who come from that and from Feldenkrais, they already have a better idea in the head about alignment, you know, that things are aligned. But it doesn't mean that your hands at the piano will be aligned. That is not what it was meant to do. So, but it's on the, the Tauman approach, in that way it's on the same line of, you know, alignment and coordination, but It goes, goes very specifically into what we need to do at the piano. You know, so when you ask how long, it depends on the person. It depends on the injury. Some people learn very quickly. You know, I can't, I mean, it's, it's sometimes it's amazing to me. It's, it's how good the teacher is. If you see no results or not really amazing results, I mean, really like solving problems, you look up a better piano. This is why I do all the training. Training. You know, I have some wonderful, wonderful people who are, who are great teachers already. So my— look, I don't tell people you have to study for many years. This is completely up to the individual. When they come to me, I try to solve the problems that they have, definitely the injuries. And the injuries often go because the problems at the, the basis are so obvious.

Yeah, I definitely experienced that in the very beginning even.

So I just said to put you on the right, you know, to put you in a place where you are comfortable, there's no symptoms. You know, there should be no symptoms, bad symptoms in a technique. The symptoms tell you, as they do in the daily life, that something is wrong. So you don't go and say, well, I was told you practice, practice, practice. You know, it goes, you get through, you know, but you don't, it gets worse. In other words, in everyday life, if something hurts, you don't go and do the same, the thing that caused the pain. You say, what is wrong with me? Or you go to the doctor. So I, you know, this is up to the people. I teach to the degree that they want me to teach. My basic role is to get people into a level that they're very comfortable and there are no symptoms. Of course, if they take the Tchaikovsky Concerto and there are, you know, things, then I suggest get in touch with me. I have people who study for decades and I have people who study for a certain amount of time. They take a break, they come back, or they don't come back. They're very happy with what they have. So if you're happy at the level that you are, that's fine. You know, I know what I can offer. And what I can offer is like, it can really be absolutely amazing, but it's not everybody is, is wants that or even can imagine that it's available, you know. So I would say it at the very— so it could be with some people, it could be a few months, it could be a season. Some people come with very difficult problems and they have been, you know, from terrible tension into a lot of relaxation, the arm is still very stiff on top of it. So there are all kinds of combinations, and that's where the experience of the teacher is so crucial.

Quite a few of my clarinetist friends and the viola players, especially if they had a smaller hand, I almost feel like they are always the ones who kind of experience that the most, you know, at some point in life. Do you How do you approach with these other instrumentalists?

Well, I tried almost all of them, you know, and the thing is I get rid of the symptom and you're just happy. I think, gee, we can go further, but you know, they're happy. What I do, what is in common with the piano is how we move from finger to finger. True. I started with Sophie, the violinist, 12 years ago. That's what I did because there was a lot of, there's a lot of curling. There's a lot of stretching there, you know, all of those things are the same. Of course, it's in a different, you know, you have another instrument, you know, that is leaning on you. So I went first from the things that I knew, you know, that can be fixed. Also the bow arm, you know, they tend to put the thumb here, they tend to stretch all the other fingers. I don't know why the wrist goes up and down. I show them how to move in one piece, you know, freely. So the bow arm is very quick, also with cellists, violists. But this, you know, what we developed a lot, and it was a learning experience for me, which I enjoyed because it's a new challenge, was, you know, the whole thing, the whole positioning, you know, of them. We went into a great deal of detail, how to produce the best sound, you know, because violin is like pianists. They press down even when there's no more sound. You know, the piano, when you get to the bottom of the key and you press down, as we told, Sound has been produced before you ever get to the bottom of the key. It's a little bit before. And then there's a little follow-through on the bottom of the keys, like on the floor. You can push all you want. The floor is not going to go down, but what you experience is a lot of tension, another source of tension. So, you know, with other musicians, I go for what is obvious. You know, very often the thumb is very, very tight. You know, the whole coordination is not good. But very often when I just put the arm there, you know, in the skips and all of those things, and there is also this kind of emotion, you know, what at The Piano Pod we call in and out. And the whole fact sound comes from the bow arm, not from squeezing the, you know, down the, you know, the strings. So how far, you know, what's— what, how much should they go down? And of course, with the help of the invisible, you know, the forearm coming down, it immediately lightens up the whole finger thing. But, and interestingly, the two work together. There's a whole coordination of the left hand and the right hand. Like there's a whole area at The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, how do we coordinate the two hands, the interdependence of the hands. You can have one hand working well, the other hand working well, together they don't. So how do they work together as one? You know, so that's what I'm saying, is when you begin to see all those possibilities, how do we— we don't feel breathless. That's true. This is the whole area of grouping, you know, how do— how many notes can we take, how do we work in ways that group notes that are close together, you know. In other words, how do we take the feeling of sudden distances in between? It's a whole science, you know, and this is all, you know, I have on those DVDs and eventually I'll have it in, you know, something will come out. So, you know, there is a lot that we're not aware of beyond how do the fingers move. That's number one. How do they move? How do they move in a way that can get around? How do we get speed? That's the whole thing. What creates speed, which I touched on a little bit, what creates sounds, you know, so it touches, it's not just The technique doesn't work just as a physical thing. The technique is what is the basis for music making.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And that's the most beautiful part. And just as you said that if we keep on talking about this topic, we can sit here for days and years, probably, you know, with all this experience you have. So our audience are definitely going to check out all these videos and, um, well, now we want to diverse our, uh, you know, we're going to go to a different topic. And Himi and I are both, as you know, and you totally inspired me in the beginning too, we're also, you know, probably like small business owners, piano teachers. And so we really want to know how you come up, you know, with the idea of the Golensky Institute. And in the very beginning, it's just a very entrepreneurial thing to do, I think, for musicians.

I'm not— I don't consider myself to be entrepreneurial. This is the interesting— this is two institutes. I absolutely had no idea how it's going to happen. You know, all I wanted to know— it came completely from the idea, I want this, I want other people to know so they know that there is a way to get help. That was it. And I logged on to a friend of mine who was also a student who had some experience in business. She had had a business had to do with clothes, nothing to do with this. And I said to her, would you help me? Would you help me? Would you help me? Would you help me? And that's how we started the Tauman Institute. You know, she said she found a place, upstate New York, and in a beautiful place right on the lake. And we like had immediately like 50 people. It went really well. Tauman was doing the, you know, the lecturing and the master classes. I was doing demonstrations. Then we had, you know, we taught people individually so they could really experience it because the words don't give you the experience or much of it, just to some degree. And it was very successful. So then it moved to, you know, we couldn't have it the following year. It moved to Amherst College.

Oh, that's why. I see.

And it was wonderful. I had my two kids while we were there. I don't mean literally that I was there, I was pregnant there, but we had a mother's house, some of the faculty with kids and babysitters and all of that. The Golanski Institute came out of the need. It was a summer thing, the Tauman, out of the need of doing it year-round, that it needed a lot more effort and it wasn't available. In the previous institute. So I wanted year-round because you can't just do a summer thing, you know, you have to have it happening all year. I wanted to certify people. It wasn't possible to do it for various reasons at the Tauman Institute. And so actually it was not, I didn't have the idea to start it right away. I had the idea to rest from it. And I had one year I did some— something in Italy. My good friend Gisele Brodsky, who has the Miami Festival, Piano Festival, at the time she didn't have it, she was giving a workshop in Lecce, Italy. Who wouldn't want to?

I met her in Miami, actually. I did not know the connection at all. I just got bored on the beach and I went to the festival.

I was at Juilliard and she was at Manhattan School of Music, and we met at Taubman's studio, and she became a lifelong friend. She did this— she had one of her pianists wanted to do a workshop. She said, why don't you do your thing? So we went and we had a fantastic time. Coming back, people kept asking, you know, when are you going to do something in this country? It's too expensive to go to Europe. But my idea was that I will go to Europe for a whole bunch of years and have someone do it for me. And all I have to do, I brought my people, we gave workshops, we taught and all of that. But people really put a lot of pressure. And, you know, Princeton was open. You know, one of my students, uh, connected me, who was involved with them, uh, connected me and they said, we would love to have you. That's how it, that's how it happened. And that became, and I wanted to do it also with you know, a group of people that I felt would be able to disseminate it very powerfully. And it's been, it's been a happy marriage.

Are you still doing these summer?

Well, you know, we took a year off during the pandemic a lot, and then COVID happened. Oh, I see. So we've been doing our workshops online on Zoom. Actually, what has been— I mean, we do it several times at least 2 or 3 times a year. And we have now— I mean, the way— the benefit is, of course, it's easier and it's cheaper. But also, we have had people from 40 countries log on and participate. So it made it available. On the one hand, it doesn't have the personal touch. And we may go back to that. It didn't— if life ever changes under COVID. But also people can sit home next to the piano and as they hear things they can try it. So, I mean, Zoom has been amazing for us. We're happy with it and I can't predict the future. I can't predict the future. Maybe we— I would like to do something in person and— but whatever it is, we are on all the time and we have also a wonderful button that's called "Request a Teacher." We have people from all over the world asking for a teacher. Very often we don't have a teacher in their area, but if they're open to Zoom or to other ways of connecting—

That's great. So besides, you know, offering now offer on Zoom, so you can reach out to people internationally, that is so amazing. And then what a creative way, right? Then also I went online online. And so your website, both your personal edna-golanski.com and also golanskiinstitute.org, both of them. And golanskiinstitute.org also offers so many like a subscriber-based videos options. So I would like to know, because I would like to subscribe and learn from it. So can you tell us a little bit?

You know, it's like over the years, you know, things accumulated and people wanted, and you know, and also we, we put eventually we put also our workshops on it. We don't do it right away because people paid for it, you know, so it's available. So you, so you can look at what we did, you know, over the years, uh, and, and I think that it's maybe even put according to sometimes to subjects, uh, this is the master classes, maybe this is the, um, uh, introductory lectures, which are always useful. I mean, just to understand. And the people who do it— I'm not even— I have passed it on to the people I've worked with the longest who are brilliant, uh, John Bloomfield and Robert Durstow and Mary Moran. And those are the top people. And then we have many others, you know, coming up who are wonderful. And they, they do the introductory lectures. I actually have done less because so much we have. We have a faculty So, remember all of them, they were amazing. Yeah, we have maybe even some other people, you know, we have more and more people are being certified. So we have also people coming up, we send them students, you know, people who are doing good work in this work. We send, you know, we fill up. And by the way, we were in Europe before, in the Far East, but what Zoom did, it just opened it up that much more. And to countries that I never even knew there were people who played the piano there, you know, it's, uh, that there is the interest. So yeah, so going on the, our streaming, so it became the streaming and I think it's very, very expensive, uh, inexpensive. Uh, I think it's under $20, something like that, you know, and 160 or 70 at this point, um, pieces of information, you know, from all of us. So it's really very It's very, very rich. And then on top of it, I have mine, which I call Instructional Materials. And on it also you have some— it came out of a blog, you know, that people would ask questions and I would show. And I don't— I haven't charged for it. And it has— yeah, it has— I don't even remember. It has masterclasses. So there's a lot for Like I said, the streaming, which is so inexpensive. Mind It is free.

So modern, so contemporary. It's awesome. Yeah. Wow.

Inspiration for all musicians.

And by the way, along the way, I put together the art of rhythmic expression. What does it mean to be rhythmic? And it's a very different take because it has to do the how of it. In other words, you can say be rhythmic or do this or do that. So that's kind of a long lecture. In the streaming. It's also on my website. And also one about the fact that we often, so often told to bring out the main lines by shushing, by quieting down the others. Well, the music is not— that's not what the music is. So I called it The Forgotten Lines. Those are the forgotten lines. And it goes again connect to the work, what in the technique allows us to hear everything, but to be able to balance the voicing. Because, you know, when you hear a string quartet or trio or duo, you don't tell the other person who has accompanying figures to be so quiet that we don't hear it. That's not the piece. So what do we do it? Because my background is like that, and people also that, you know, I've taught and with the best so-called teachers, you know, just by being quiet because it will overcome. So what is the technique to get a sound that is rich enough even if it's soft, and how do we balance, how do we get soft sounds without holding up and not being able to control it? I mean, this work answers all of those things. This is like, I mean, the whole idea is to have the means in the end to put the technical, and actually my late, the latest workshop that we gave is what I talked about. You know, this is from June. It has a 45-minute or 50-minute lecture, you know, wonderful, transferring from technique to, I would say, the technique of music expression. It's a technique. It's still how our hands put those keys down. We can think it, we can feel it, we can move our bodies and all of that, doesn't mean it's going to come out.

Wow, wow, very inspiring. And then Also, I checked out some of the testimonials and then I recognized a lot of names. There are A-list pianists. So I know it's a very personal thing and confidential, maybe, so you may not want to name anybody, but is there like a specific success story you might want to share? Like this person came with this tension or injury, but is there a story like that? I'm sure there are a ton of stories like this.

Everybody comes tense, you know. So it's, it's everybody. I, I don't think that I've ever had anyone— they wouldn't probably come, unfortunately. I can take them when they're not tense and up their technique, you know, uh, to what it wasn't. But I— nobody has ever come. I'm thinking of one person who was so good and so accomplished that I said, why do you want to come to me? And he said, because performing, you know, a good career and everything, because I feel that I hit a wall that I couldn't go beyond. In other words, he didn't feel it as good as he was. I heard him play Rachmaninoff concerto and really was amazing. That is, that's unusual. That shows it deeply intelligent person. He said he logged on to the website, the Gulansky Institute website, and he said he saw that there could be more. And that's why he came. So he didn't have pain, he didn't even have tension. He just felt there were— as hard the pieces as he played, there were pieces that were beyond him. He felt it could be freer, and he felt he could get a better sound. So all of that got accomplished. But that was, that's like a dream student. Doesn't come when things are very bad. It's already, but really it's, I can't think because everybody, I'm trying to think of someone who came with tension. Everybody comes with tension. That's right.

So it's a success story at 100%. Really, I mean, it's true.

I would say that if You know, most of the time we connect, but sometimes once in a while somebody doesn't respond, you know, for whatever reason. Sometimes the people, very intelligent people, there's some sense that maybe they take a little bit longer and maybe it will not be as wonderful as I think it can be, but the difference is huge, you know, no matter what. So I think it takes particular intelligence maybe, you know, to kind of connect concepts that are new, to allow the hand to take it in. You know, it's like with any kind of learning. Once in a while I find— that's so, so rare. I can think maybe of 2 people in a career of many years who came and I felt that there was something besides the piano. You know, when pianists come and it hurts here and here and here and the neck and the back and the shoulders, those are very typical, uh, things at the piano. But sometimes somebody comes and it goes beyond that. They have— there's been a trauma from an accident. Um, there could be something a little bit psychological, what the teacher said about you, and you still— but I could think of two people like that. And then in that case, I would send them to somebody, thing, you know, that can release. For example, Feldenkrais. I mean, the man was a genius, you know, who, who understood— he was talking about the connection between the brain and the body and was, you know, was helping people with traumas and with neurological problems, which is really what it was about. So I have a friend, you know, that occasionally I would send someone to her and I said, you know, I think there's more to it here. See what there is. And she always found what was wrong with the body and she fixed that because that was, I felt, was not a piano problem. Took me many years to realize once in a while it is. And then I could work with them. Then the body was normalized with all its problems too. But I would say that 99.9% of the time those issues come from the instrument. That's true.

Wow, what beautiful advice you have given to all of us. I mean, inspiration is just all these beautiful stories. I'm like getting so excited, but our show, unfortunately—

yes, go ahead. That can go into computer injuries. You know, I have a website, by the way, called— oh, that's right— .com. It can go into that, and it could go into daily, you know, when you grip too hard when, when your alignment is broken. Chefs have these problems, you know, doctors who operate, dentists. So it goes in the end in how we use our hands, except that in daily life, fixing it may take 5 minutes. You don't have to do all the things that are, you know, at The Piano Pod, you know, that are much more, or any other instrument. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

So, well, unfortunately our show is coming to the end and we have I know we have so much material on your website, so we're going to list all of that. And just as a sort of our tradition, we would like to hear your advice for young pianists. And I remember when I studied with you, there were a couple of very promising young musicians.

And so what do I suggest to them? I do what I do with grown-ups. There's no difference. And the very gifted ones that I worked with are very easy to teach. You know, some of them, they don't have the years and years. Some of them, I don't know whom you heard, but the ones that I've worked with just had some of the same problems. It doesn't vary. I have had teachers who bring to me an 8-year-old with a fourth finger that hurts. What do you think? All You know, it's isolating, you know, it's pushing, it's stretching, the other fingers are stretching away. It's exactly the same. I don't teach kids, I don't work with kids now, but I talk to them like grown-ups. I mean, you know, tune the language and all of that, but they're so smart and they're usually very quick that sometimes easier to work with because they don't have all those ideas through the years, you know, the brainwashing. And I just— the suggestion is for a teacher to put them, it's, you know, it's in the, again, on instructional materials, it's the streaming, you know, how to sit right, you know, what's the right height, how to start them, just not to get into those problems to begin with, and then how to develop them, you know. And that's what— that's the information, that's all the meat of this work. So I don't know if that answers it, but it's the same problems.

Definitely. That is so beautiful. And so we are going to put all of our, you know, much of the website and everything in our description later on. But we are going to go into our very last segment. Are you ready for the rapid-fire questions?

Let me try.

So very quick. Quick answers and you don't have to think and there's no wrong answers and we're gonna go. What is your comfort food?

Um, vegetables.

Okay. Are you a cat person or dog person?

I'm allergic to both.

Oh, unfortunate.

That's easy. What is your word or words to live by?

Peace and possibility.

Beautiful. What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Honesty and connection. Pretty beautiful.

What is the worst quality in people you want to stay away from?

Close-mindedness.

Name one piece in your current playlist.

Oh God, that is difficult. Um, Chrysleriana.

Name one book title in your library.

You know something, I, you know, I, I'm a Hebrew-speaking person also. I come from Israel, so I'm literature, you know. I'm reading a lot of, of Hebrew literature right this moment, but I'll tell you a a book that— there's so many books. I mean, I don't know if you're looking in literature or you're looking just—

Anything you like.

Anything that I would like. You know something? There is a book. One second, because I'm doing some research. Hold it. Okay. This is a book by a name of Daniel Kahneman, and it's called Thinking Fast and Slow. I haven't read all of it, but what he says from— he's an economist and a psychologist— what he says in his, uh, in his book and his research is so along the lines of what this work is. It doesn't explain this work at all, but it has to do with the brain, how it works, and it works perfectly the same.

Well, that comes to our very last question. Music is blank. What is music?

Inspirational.

Great.

So that concludes, yeah, this episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Edna Golinsky. Thank you so much, Edna, for joining us today and sharing your stories, insights, and expertise. You can find more information about her on her website at golinskyinstitute.org or ednagolinsky.com. Correct. We want to encourage our audience to please check them out, and all the links are listed in the description.

And thank you to our wonderful audience and fans for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review it on whatever podcasting platform you use. If you are watching us on YouTube, remember to hit the thumbs up button and be sure to subscribe to our channel. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. The links are in the description below.

If you're interested in becoming the guest or recommending someone to be on our show as a guest, or if you'd like to sponsor, collaborate with us, shoot us an email at thepianopodnyc@gmail.com or send us a DM via social media.

We will see you for the next episode of The Piano Pod. Bye everyone! Thank you, Edna, so much.

My pleasure.

Thank you.