Season 3 Episode 15: Alan Moverman -- Piano Soloist at New York City Ballet

Welcome back to another episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. So today, for my audience exclusively, I'm going to take you on a quick trip to New York City's famous Lincoln Center, and more specifically, the backstage of the David H. Koch Theater, home to one of the most renowned ballet companies in the world. So for this episode, I got to interview Dr. Alan Moverman, a piano soloist at New York City Ballet. For his 20-year career at the company, he has performed concerti and solo repertoire in prominent concert venues worldwide and worked closely with the most celebrated choreographers such as Alexei Ratmansky, Jerome Robbins, who was actually the choreographer of the original West Side Story, and Justin Peck and more. Before getting started, I want to welcome everyone listening or watching The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song for the first time. I'm a classical pianist and educator from New York City, passionate about creating a thriving and meaningful community of the classical music industry through this podcast. Please visit yukimisongstudio.com to find out more about my work. In each episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, I interview a guest speaker who has been breaking exciting new ground in the industry. Before getting started, I want to thank everyone for tuning in today. Please rate the show and review it on your favorite podcasting platform because every rating review will help people find my show.

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You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song.

You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.

I am honored to welcome Dr. Alan Moverman, a piano soloist at New York City Ballet. Throughout his 28-year career as a soloist for the ballet company and with their chamber music group called Moves, he has performed concerti and solo repertoire in prominent concert venues worldwide. So, Alan, welcome to The Piano Pod And thanks for being here today.

I appreciate the opportunity. That's great.

I'm so excited to get to know the world of ballet today by talking to you, as I'm not familiar with what really goes into the production of ballet programs. And I enjoy listening to ballet music and attending shows, and to be honest, I did a few years of ballet lessons as a kid for 5 years or so, and my experience and knowledge of what it takes to put together ballet program stops right there. So I can't wait for you to take us to the backstage of David H. Koch Theater, which is home to New York City Ballet, and to be exposed to the ballet world and hear what it's like to work with the most celebrated dancers and choreographers and what it takes to be a solo pianist at one of the most celebrated ballet companies in the world. So, Alan, I want to start with this question. Oh, by the way, where are you tuning in from today?

Oh, this, this is the, the Koch Theater at Lincoln Center. And it's— you can see there's a ballet bar behind me.

I know.

And then there's a piano next to me.

Oh, wonderful. So, you know, you use for rehearsal.

Yeah, this is one of our— this is a very small rehearsal room. The ballet company is really lucky because we have rehearsal rooms in the Rose Building, which is where Juilliard is, also huge, huge rehearsal rooms. When I do gigs with some modern companies on occasion, they'll come into the studios and they'll just be like, I can't believe this. You know, it's like the most beautiful studios with also gorgeous light and huge 15-foot windows throughout. It's really gorgeous. But the dancers really deserve it because it's, as you know, it's an incredibly difficult career for them. And they've made it a long way to be here. And so we want them to have the best possible conditions to work in.

Well, thank you for showing me the room. It's gorgeous. I mean, it's such an exciting— excitement happens in that room, so that's incredible.

Yeah, yeah, I think so.

What is the job description of ballet pianist of this major ballet company? What are the responsibilities?

Well, we have a really large repertoire here, and a lot of it is is quite complex. We have 30 active Stravinsky ballets in the repertoire.

Oh my goodness.

So obviously Stravinsky can be complicated, and we play them all or virtually all of them in rehearsals for the dancers on the piano. So I would say one of the primary job descriptions is to be able to realize piano reductions and hopefully imitate the orchestra sound. Also, you need to have or develop a kind of sophisticated sense of rhythm because the dancers are very sensitive to the speed of music and There are other parameters in music also. Well, just talking about the rhythmic parameter, they need a lot of steadiness, a kind of steadiness that is a kind of default position. And as we all know as pianists, rhythm is one of the things we study. Rhythm is a living thing. It's flexible, it's rooted in dance and it's rooted in our bodies.

And we—

but it's something we always need to work on, but it's something dancers need, a sense of predictability in the rhythm.

How are you going to be able to match the orchestra? Because, you know, after the rehearsal with pianist, like yourself, then they're moving into orchestra. So what's the transition like?

Well, that's one of the pedagogical problems with rehearsal with piano versus orchestra. And I think it's important for people who do this job to constantly listen as much as possible to the orchestra version of the piece they're playing. Because in specific ways, like what instrument is prominent, but also in subtle ways, like the type of rhythm an orchestra plays. Like, I can give you a good example. It might be fun to play a little bit. So this is from one of Tchaikovsky's well-known pieces. It's called Serenade for Strings. So that piece I was practicing The other day, and I realized that, you know, the way I play it, it sounds nice. It's like a Chopin nocturne almost. But, you know, orchestras have a broader kind of sound. So then I think a little more careful— not really careful, but play on the more subdivided way, like orchestras, you know, have to line up vertically. So you can't do like as much. They would do, you know, this kind of thing.

So instead of playing with fluidity, you want to be more metronomical. I don't want to say that term, but musical.

But, but, but a kind of a more— you could— it's kind of more classical rhythm in a way. And also, you know, orchestras, orchestra music is, is by definition has a public sound. So when you're dealing with a public sound, you're going to be dealing with things that are easier to understand, that everyone can understand in a nice way. So if you play this— it's very beautiful, but it's intimate. The public might want— You hear the difference?

Mm-hmm.

You know, it's very hard when you play ballet piano not to get caught up in, like they say, if I played it the first way, they might say, "Oh, that's beautiful, that's great." Or they might say, "You know, it feels a little too fast." So it's important not to get caught up in the fact that I did something wrong. I just didn't do it in the best possible way for them at the moment, because once you get into it, it's very easy to get into self-criticism of your rhythm in ballet. So it's better to forthrightly play what you feel and then adjust than to always be like, what do they need? What do they need? What do they need? Another thing I was practicing, there's a beautiful And the other morning I was listening to the orchestra version. I was like saying, well, maybe better. It's different.

So speaking of that, how about playing like, you know, that those are orchestra reductions. So during rehearsals you're playing orchestra reductions most of the time, such as, you know, rehearsals.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that must be really challenging. I've done, you know, accompanying for, you know, violin concerto and everything and playing the entire score.

Well, not, I mean, not, I left out a lot of notes. But it is a little different than playing accompanying a violinist or a singer because you tend to pick and you've got the melody is generally being carried by another instrument. You have to play the melody and you have to indicate as much of the sense of the orchestration as possible.

Wow.

Which is wonderful if you accompany people too, but doesn't always happen and isn't even always desirable, partly because it almost requires you to play the piece as if you're a soloist.

Wow, you're right.

But what's the secret to playing them well?

There are a lot of different ones, different elements. Listen a lot to orchestras, try to think about what orchestras, what the emotional effect is of hearing an orchestra, which is very different than hearing a solo pianist, although there's a lot of overlap, of course. Also, I learned there are very few books on the subject, but there's a very good book on accompanying by Martin Katz, who was a famous, famous vocal accompanist for Fredericke von Staad, and lots of Marilyn Horne. I mean, he was a great, great— and I studied with him a little bit, and he wrote a book about accompaniment. I can't quite remember the name of the book, but he did have a chapter on playing orchestra reductions. I've never seen any other book. I think there's a Robert Spillman book also that has a chapter on playing orchestra reductions. He was a— he taught at Eastman for many, many years and was also a spectacular vocal accompanist. And I actually studied with him as well. But they both wrote good books. Probably Bob Spillman's book is out of print, unfortunately, and it was an amazing book. I wish I— I'll have to look on one of the websites and pay $300 to buy the out-of-print book. Which, to be honest with you, I almost would, because that's how good it was.

But do you come up with your own piano transcriptions as well?

Well, I mean, I can show you what I was just playing off. You know, most— for most of music history, there weren't recordings, so almost everything written up to about 1950 has a piano version, which is kind of fun to know if you like piano music. If you like orchestra music and you're a pianist, you can really find on, you know, online or IMSLIP, you can find almost any of your favorite Beethoven symphonies or Brahms symphonies companies in piano arrangements, or at least in forehand arrangements. So, so that's where we get our reductions for the most part. If it's a contemporary piece, someone has to make one, and it could be another pianist, or we could hire it out to, to someone who does that thing. I've, I've done some myself. I probably have played close to 100 ballets here. Most of them are about between 35 and 60 pages long. And, you know, I could probably get through pretty well 50 ballets, just sit at the piano and play.

Oh my goodness. So what does your day as a solo pianist for a major ballet company look like? How does your day start? Like, are you with dancers at the piano all day long?

I rehearse between— generally between 3 hours and 5 hours a day. Usually it comes in about 4. I start usually at 11:30 or 12, and there's a schedule that comes out 2 days in advance. It says who is rehearsing what, who the pianist is, who the rehearsal director is, and also all the dancers that have to be in the rehearsal. The schedule, and it shows one of 6 or 7 studios, or not, I think 5 or 6 studios that we can rehearse in. So different pieces, today I have to rehearse a piece called "Camera Music" by Hindemith, which is a piano concerto. It's from 12:00 to 12:30. Then I have to rehearse this piece, which is Serenade, the piece I was just playing, Serenade for Strings, from 1:00 to 2:30. And that rehearsal is actually with the corps, because in ballet we have different categories of dancers. As you see on stage, there's a soloist, a principal dancer, dancer often. So you've got the corps generally is more the background, for want of a better word, and then you've got the people that are kind of leading the troupe, those are more principals. So you— they don't always rehearse together. At 1 o'clock for Sérénade, it will be a corps rehearsal. So even though it has principal dancers in it, I'll just be rehearsing with the corps for an hour and a half, and they'll be going through it. It's a lot of responsibility because we're going to Madrid next week, and this piece hasn't been touched by anyone for, I don't know, 4 months. And so there's going to be 2 of these rehearsals, and then tomorrow I'm playing what we call a complete, where the entire company will be there, the conductor will be there, the directors, Wendy Whelan and Jonathan Stafford, will be there, and all the dancers in the ballet, and we'll play the ballet from beginning to end, which is the hardest thing we do. Wow. Playing with a conductor also is different than playing by yourself. Yeah, that's kind of a bit of an art form unto itself.

What are the advantages, not to mention having a full-time paid job as a pianist, which is sort of rare, right? Because pianists don't usually, unless if you're teaching, you don't get to have that luxury. Now, what are the advantages of being part of this company? And maybe you have more performance opportunities.

Well, yeah, in terms of, I mean, it is a reliable job at different kind of levels of the job. I mean, you know, just as with any part of the music business, there are different places you find yourself in. You can be a Pianist who plays for ballet class around New York. There are probably 100 ballet classes every day in New York.

I've done that before.

Yes, they need pianists. Oh, so you, you know about that. I also play class. I know how to do that. Then you can play with the company. That's also, that's maybe you'll be paid more money. And you'll have more regular work, and then you can play, you know, hopefully if you like doing that sort of thing, you can play with a major company, and then you get a more full-time kind of job that resembles a regular job, you know, with benefits and insurance and—

Yeah, sure, but more I understand that part of, you know, full-time job, but more to do with more than that. What are the opportunities as a pianist that comes with this?

I mean, we, because we have such a large repertoire and because the music we work with is so complicated, we can do any of the range of music at all. I mean, we have, we do the Prokofiev Fourth Concerto. 5th Concerto. We do the 2 Shostakovich concertos, all 3 Tchaikovsky concertos, Beethoven 1st. We do Ligeti etudes. We do, you know, we have at least 3 hours of Chopin music that we perform on stage. We do the Ravel sonatine. We do Miroir.

So you get to really perform, perform, not just the rehearsal, then.

No, no, no. We play plenty of stuff on stage with the dancers.

Wow.

And then dancers are being, of course, choreographed with that music. That is really fascinating. I never knew that part of your job description.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the great part of— well, all these other parts are also great parts. We do get opportunities to play big pieces that all pianists enjoy playing. And we play with a very fine orchestra and very fine conductors. It's kind of an unbelievable privilege.

It is. Wow, that is fascinating.

I played— the last really big piece I played was in the spring last year. I played a piece called Piano Pieces by Jerry Robbins, and it's a 40-minute piece of solo Tchaikovsky piano music, ranging from children's pieces that are, you know, of course, always which is a little more difficult than people think, to very hard virtuoso pieces that are recorded by, you know, well, all, everything's recorded now, but, you know, virtuoso piano pieces. And that was really great. And you, generally we play on the apron, they call it, which is on the side of the stage. The pianist comes out and takes a bow for the audience. That's how the piece always starts. And then the lights kind of go down and then they open the curtain and then you play. And that piece has, I think, 13 pieces in it. I try to make a little story. It helps me and it makes it more fun, you know, like every music piece or choreography piece, generally there's some sort of structure, some sort of subtext or story, and that helps you kind of organize all these pieces and have fun telling the story that you think should be told with this music. And it also helps you get the tempos. That's really, really important because Like I was saying about the serenade, you have to be able to get kind of specific. You know, you can't just go— it's not all about you. You know, I mean, if you're— if you're, I don't know, Puccini, you can sit and you can play. You know, you can play whatever you want, but maybe the choreographer, maybe the story of this dance is a little more neutral. Even though it's Chopin, you might play— You might play something a little more broad, you know, so you can make a picture, so the listener can make a picture. Instead of being involved with your emotion, maybe you want the listener to be able to dream. So that's the kind of thing, but if you say it is a kind of intimate communication with the dancer, and so that changes the tempo. You might play— Which is poco rubato. So, you know, poco rubato is something you can remember, or you might do the broad moonlit thing that, you know, the picture, which you might write semplice. Those are different tempos. The intimate one is slower. More in eighths. And the— as I found in the second measure, as I was thinking about it, the Moonlit one is more in two and has a slight larger rhythm that moves. And every possible variation. And I mean, these are the things we think about. We're privileged as the pianist to play complete pieces. We're the only musicians that, you know, play so many complete pieces. Violinists only play half the music, you know. And so we have to— we have to— we have a lot of fun, but we have a lot of responsibility to make decisions about characterization. And dance forces you to.

Mm.

Wow. Must. You know, it's not just anything you feel. You know, it is important to realize that all the things you feel have validity, but you have to eventually decide what is it. Is it agitated? Or is it defiant? You know, what is it? And it's fine if you're playing by yourself. It's not even fine really, because you really have to have this— I feel strongly you have to have this language of emotion in your mind.

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My teachers were, uh, I had wonderful teachers. I had Richard Goode for many years. And also the son of Schnabel I studied with, Karl Ulrich Schnabel. And he taught me, he said, to begin a piece, you should find— you should play it in many different characters, like, you know, every character you can think of. So you can get this language that connects the head and the heart or the body. And it's very useful in dance because then you can remember a tempo in more than just an abstract, you know, an intellectual way. Although you do— dance pianists do get a good sense of metronomic exactness, like, you know, 63. 63 is different than 66. I don't want to test myself and embarrass myself, but, you know, one thing that helps sometimes is some pieces you just sort of know the tempo. And so, like, I know I could be wrong, but this little Scott Joplin waltz. I believe it's 96. 1, 2, 3. Actually, I think that was too fast. So you remember that, so maybe I have to play, uh, some some other piece that I decide is 96. You know, you remember a piece, you know the tempo of, oh, that was 72.

So yeah, develop this metronome in your body. I'm sure especially with, you know, playing with dancers forces you to be more aware of those things, right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's fun. You have to look at it as fun. If you you look at it as terrible and, you know, how dare you play, you know, my, you know, sonata, you know, at 50 when I wrote 54. I mean, you're not going to do too well. I mean, and then I think it's interesting, the two approaches to tempo in the studio, you can play the tempo that you think the orchestra will play all the time. That's one approach. That's a good approach for some people. Also, you can look at the dancer and the situation. Where are they in their preparation? Are they remembering the piece that they've played a long time ago? Are they amazing dancers and they— if you don't give them something to chew on, meaning a really healthy tempo, they're going to fall asleep. They're going to— they're going to not— it's too uninteresting for them. Um, you know, you have to get into the personalities.

Interesting.

Working with, like, uh, and that doesn't even just involve rhythm, it can involve sound also. Um, you know, say I'm working with Tyler Peck who's a complete virtuoso. She probably has the greatest ballet technique of our time, you know, so, and she's played Don Serenade a million times. So, so, and say we're doing like a rehearsal right before, she's totally on it, she knows it, you know, if I play like for her, which is Serenade for Strings. You know, that's more of a tempo you would play when a dancer is trying to remember something. They're in the room and you don't want to impose too much. You want to remind them, remember this, you knew this last year. So they have space. So you knew this last year, so just remember, jog your memory a little bit. Then you might have a dancer who's very tall, so they need the characterization, but they also need maybe a slower tempo. That's a bigger body. And so all these things also, these are words like characterizations of a Beethoven sonata. Is it aggressive? Is it stately? Is it— what's the difference? I mean, there was a big long Schnabel article in the beginning of Opus 111, what's the difference between maiestoso and larghetto? You know, there is a difference, you know, and it doesn't mean you're locked in, you know, to this terrible odious pedanticism, but, you know, you want to project some specific In order for an audience to read your music or for a dancer to read your tempo, it has to be specific.

Wow. Now, all these things are very fascinating, but what attracted you to start this career, and especially as a full-time soloist at a ballet company? Did you start as like an internship or apprentice?

No, not really. They kind of throw it all at you at once. It's sort of a little sink or swim. It's— they're kinder now. They— but when you come in, when I came in, I think I had to play Suite 3 by Tchaikovsky, which is a big orchestra piece, complete, what, on stage with the conductor, the the entire company, and within a couple weeks. And then I played the second act of Midsummer Night's Dream, which is about 40 minutes long, on stage with the whole company. And that's the way it used to be. It used to be a really, really challenging, to say the least.

You went to Juilliard for master's, right? And then for doctorate, you went to Stony Brook? Great schools. Now, did they prepare you to be the ballet pianist?

No, not really. I mean, I, you know, like, I think that one of the main things that helps me is that I started as a jazz pianist.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

And so, and I was, I was very good. I was, I was, I studied with very famous jazz teachers, and I was New York State in high school, the first, you know, the, I don't know what they call it, all-state pianist, jazz pianist, 2 years in a row, New York State, which is a lot of jazz pianists are in New York. You know, my sense of music is very, in a sense, it's kind of conceptual. Like, the piano is just a part of what I do. What I do, you know, it's just the expression of what I do. But I just play music. And so, and when I see music, because I was a jazz pianist, I just see harmony. And, you know, so when you're playing reductions, there's a kind of quick analysis of what's going on in the music. I mean, this is not only true of jazz pianists by any means. But it helped me to be less orthodox. Like, you know, I'm not like, what fingering am I? What finger am I going to put on the note? I'm like, okay, you know, this is a serenade. So it's, it's slow. It's 6/8. It's, it's A minor. It's, it's, it's moving to the dominant, you know, like, you know, like these little, almost like cue cards, you know. What you know in the music. Now it's changing tempo. Now this phrase is 8 measures. This phrase is 6 measures. Also, I studied composition with Howard Boatwright, who's a wonderful composer and a pupil of Hindemith. So I had really good composition training. And, you know, really, I mean, my musical life, I mean, the main thing I do is play the piano, but I mean, it's like all day, you know, it's listening, uh, you know, thinking about structures, thinking about, um, reading about music history.

And yeah, wow, but that's, that's very different from traditional way of learning piano because, because you had this background of jazz and also the training of composition, so you see music differently. So I think Yeah, then obviously playing for dancers also give you different perspectives about playing piano, right? Yeah, right.

And also, I'm— well, you mean playing itself, um, for example, you know, compared to—

I've done a ton of work collaboration with singers and instrumentalists, right? So as opposed to that, playing for dancers, right?

Well, you have to give them the structure more because they're, they're going to be dancing to people— actually, for one thing, they're going to be dancing to people that can't really see them while they're playing. So obviously, they're dancing to the music, so you can't follow them in the same way that you follow a singer. I want to say that with a caveat: you can follow them also, but as a rule, you have to keep in mind that they need structure. You can't see them, so that is— so you can't really like you know, connect in that way. So that's why what you do has to be involved with them but defined. Kind of very definite, you know, like this is, this is what it is. So they know where the music is, right? Yeah, they need to know where the music is. That's, in a way, your primary responsibility is a structural responsibility. Now, when you're playing for singers, you know, I studied with Gil Kalish also, who was a great vocal accompanist, and he always said the pianist provides the structure in that to. So I, I, my career is not a vocal accompanist. Maybe you do more than I do. I used to do a lot when I was in school, but when I was accompanying voice, a lot of it was in the studio, and a lot of it was about a kind of following or connecting, which is what made it so enjoyable. But I have to say that, you know, Gil, who was a great vocal accompanist always talked about providing the structure.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I think it's more so for dancers. I guess they have to really keep the beat, right?

They keep a beat and they need to know where they are in the piece.

In the piece, yes, and it's impossible to sort of feeling each other, although you may, but because they're on the different, you know, you can't see them.

It has to happen after. I mean, and it's when you play a solo piano piece like the Robbins piece I talked about, the Tchaikovsky, or Dancers at a Gathering is an hour-long Chopin piece by Robbins with hard pieces like the B minor scherzo and all sorts of crazy stuff. You know, when you play those things, you can connect more. But still, there's something that's agreed upon prior, really.

Right, right, right, right, right. That's why you spend so much time on rehearsals.

You spend time in rehearsals, like the things I was showing before, different ways. And then once that way is established, you can connect. That's the wonderful thing. But until that is established, and I suppose there are some dancers that are just spontaneous, and maybe you just throw the book out the window and just connect. And, you know, that's great if you can see them. Yeah, if you can see them.

But, uh, uh, hey, TPP friends and listeners, The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song is in its third season. Thanks to all of you for watching or listening to every episode since its launch in 2020. I started this show with a simple question I had in mind for quite some time, which is How can we as classical pianists and music educators present the beautiful classical music tradition to the 21st century audience in a fun and contemporary and stylish and engaging way? It's been an incredible journey for the last 3 years, and I love what I do through this podcast, providing a platform for pianists and educators to reflect and discuss freely how we can keep the classical music industry thriving and relevant in this rapidly changing world. Now more than ever, I really need your help. I need your support so that I can continue my work by bringing you highly valuable content biweekly by interviewing groundbreakers in the industry. You can make a one-time donation or monthly pledge by clicking the PayPal link in the show notes or going to The Piano Pod's website at thepianopod.com. As a thank you, you will receive The Piano Pod's fun logo sticker in the mail. So please support my show today and don't forget to subscribe and continue listening and tell your friends and colleagues about The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Let's continue with the episode.

And I, I just love, uh, dance because dance is, is another way that music can reach people because some people are more visual. Like they say, there are 7 types of of learning, right? Some people are more— they learn with their eyes, and if it's friendlier for them to hear a piece of music with choreography, it helps their imagination. They connect with the— seeing someone move makes you feel your own body. Seeing a stage set evoke— stimulates your imagination. You were talking about reaching people before we started the conversation, and one of the things that I feel really strongly about, you were asking, what is the relevance of music in society and stuff? Music and all art, it's a much more, in a way, it's a more specific language than the words we use, because it combines ideas ideas and emotions in a way that's much more sophisticated than we're able to. I mean, maybe if you're Shakespeare or something, you know, you can communicate those ideas in words. But people, you know, people in the world has problems, people have problems, but they go to see a dance performance and it puts them back in themselves. In a way that's tremendously healthy, even practical. We really need that in the world. And art people say, "Oh, you shouldn't be an artist because how are you going to make money?" and stuff. But it would be a terrible world, just terrible, if no one tried to do it. It is very, very hard, but it would be terrible. We would have more wars and we would have, you know, we would have more, probably more diseases, maybe even, you know, because the scientists wouldn't be as good because they would be unhappy people.

Absolutely.

Art is wonderful. It's like the best medicine. Our old boss Gordon, who was one of the, probably one of the great ballet pianists in history, Gordon Belsner, was Balanchine's kind of right-hand man. He was the man at the piano when Balanchine choreographed all the masterpieces, Nutcracker, well, not Nutcracker, but he was a little after that time, but you know, all these Stravinsky, you know, it was Gordon, Stravinsky, and Balanchine sitting in the room.

What makes them, these people, the great ballet pianists and soloists?

Well, the music we do is really hard. So you kind of have to be a concert-level pianist, of course, to play here, more or less. I mean, that doesn't mean you're András Schiff, but you have to have gone pretty far, played big recitals. And so Gordon was a wonderful pianist. That was the start. He was supremely gifted, beautiful sound, warm, approachable, fantastic technique, immaculate kind of musical thinking. He was a student of Michelangeli. And also, but in a way, something that is maybe a little like me in a certain way, he was a a composition student of John Cage.

Wow.

He had like this kind of funky, creative, you know, cool aspect to him that was— that opened him up, you know. You know, he would talk about David Lynch movies and, you know, all these— he had all these interests that were so interesting. And so he was an amazing pianist, but he was also like a a wide-ranging person. And he never would have been satisfied, I don't think, with just struggling with, you know, fine-tuning his Beethoven sonata. I don't think that was his— you know, it's— he wanted to be more with people, I think. And that— I think you have to be not so— maybe not so single-minded about piano. But you have to start to play here. You have to start with being basically concert-level pianist. I mean, one of our pianists now, Steve Gosling, he's probably one of the 10 greatest performers of contemporary music in the world. He's incredible. I mean, he, you know, he has like 30 records and, you know, he's played all, you know, this impossible music, you know, you know, Adas and Crazy stuff. Stockhausen, all the stuff. And we've had really Susan Walters, who was one of our pianists. She's a fantastic pianist. Elaine Shelton. And so anyway, you have to be a good pianist. But then you have to have this little— you have to be a good musician. And if you have to choose between the two, it's probably better to be a little bit— if you can even divide these things, which is hard— a little better musician than you are a pianist.

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You have to care more about the music than you care about, you know, being Mr. Perfect, which is kind of a relief and a certain way. If you think about it, it's music is fun.

It sounds like also being musician means it requires more flexibility, versatility, you know, it's not just about what's on the score, but you also have to read the room, what's going on on the, you know.

Exactly, read the room is a really good skill. Read the room is saying a lot. You know, I was thinking about that yesterday in my rehearsal. I was, you know, because I was playing Sérénade and I was thinking, oh, well, the ballet rehearsal director said, oh, it's too— it's too fast. They're just remembering it. And but it's hard because I was at this part in the music which I have trouble playing. And so I was like, is it me or is it— which happens every day.

Wow.

And then I— so at that point you have to make a decision. You have to decide, am I going to slow down my tempo? Or if I'm going to slow down, you also have to a little bit ask yourself, was I actually wrong, or were they wrong? It's important to keep your sense, your center, you know, like you can change for them but still think they were wrong. It wasn't too fast. Maybe it wasn't too fast. Maybe the dancer— because sometimes they get behind, you know, they're doing fine for a while and then they have trouble with the step and they're like, oh, it's too fast, So what are you then if she's like, oh, maybe I rush, you know, and they can say you're rushing when you're sometimes you're not rushing, but you know, sometimes you are, right?

Yeah, pianists, we all tend to rush.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Now, I, you know, in your bio, you are saying that you worked with this amazing the most celebrated choreographers such as Alexei Ratmansky, Jerome Robbins, Justin Peck, and all the wonderful, wonderful choreographers. So even I know of, I've heard of Jerome Robbins, the name, and also he did the choreograph for West Side Story. So you worked with him. Can you tell us how was it like to work with this amazing choreographer?

Well, I mean, all right, I have to say I worked with him at the very end of his life, and I didn't— I don't think I really experienced the full Jerry Robbins. He was famously hard to work with and critical, you know, unbelievably unbelievably critical, apparently. It was a different time. It was an old school. I'm sure things that were done in those days would not have been done the same way now. But by the time I worked with him, he just left me alone because I don't think he had enough energy to bother with me. And, you know, I was the pianist for or one of the two pianists for choreographing his last ballet, which was Brandenburg. And I also worked with him on a couple other pieces, but that was my main experience as to movements from several Brandenburg concertos and a couple other pieces, I think, that aren't in Brandenburg concertos. And, you know, he— so I don't have any of the great stories. You can read biography and tell the great stories, but he was famously difficult. But the only funny thing I remember, I remember two really funny things about him. One was that, you know, to give you an idea of how I stacked up in his hierarchy of people in his life, even though I spent, you know, probably 30 hours with the guy. You know, he'd just say, "Hey you, play!" And so I'd play, you know, and apparently he thought I was okay. He told the people on the fourth floor that, "Oh, he's okay." I was— I had only just started. I think I had only— I think I had only played for 4 months. Then I rehearsed Another couple things, Suite of Dances, I played the, which is actually Bach cello suites, but we rehearsed it on piano and then we brought in Wendy Sutter to play it. At that time it was Wendy, now it's Ann Kim a lot. And so that was funny. But I remember I had one moment with him where he was sitting at the piano next to me on the stage of the theater here. We're at the Coke Theater here, and he was just playing some notes and he just started reminiscing how he used to play the piano. And it was kind of sweet. He was in his mid-70s then, and I don't think he quite made 80. I'm not sure.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

But people— he was a stressful guy. But obviously a genius. He had a special— I think I should say for the people who aren't ballet fans but might be interested in going and checking out, he created a special kind of intimacy on stage between the piano and the dancers in his piano ballets. In particular, the Chopin, also this Tchaikovsky piece. It's really hard to define, but you kind of have to see it. But it was like this kind of very almost quiet theatrical space that you'd feel between the solo pianist and the dancers. I think it had a lot to do with the fact that one of his— I know this for a fact— that one of his inspirations was the ballet studio itself.

Wow.

So the connection, I'm sure you felt being playing for dance classes at some point. Anyone who's played knows that there can be a special quality in the room. And he was able to do something like that with these, these Chopin pieces. What was interesting is they often had no set. They were often just dancers on stage and piano, kind of pared down, you know. You know, and had a particular quality.

Wow.

And even in the fast pieces, like, jeez, I forget it. But, you know, just it was very special. It was very, very special. Different. Totally different than Balanchine. All choreographers have a different relationship with music. Some people illustrate the music more, like, lead the audience to understand the music. Some composers respond to the music with their own— how do I— okay, here's the music, how do I feel about this? What— this thing I'm confronting? Like, so they could have beautiful music and they could even express something angry sometimes. Maybe, maybe, maybe they're like, Well, I didn't get any of that.

Let's talk about New York City Ballet. How exciting is that, this ballet company is? And you've been working for them for 20 years, 28 years.

28, I think.

Yeah. And what's so special about this ballet company?

Well, it's just, I mean, it's just got a lot of great dancers, you know? I mean, you know, it's, it's the top or one of the very tops, and they're just wonderful. And that's, that's the main thing. And then we've had the best choreographers here. I mean, there are other great choreographers, but we've had probably the main ones. Robbins, Balanchine, complete genius. I mean, Balanchine, without Balanchine, a lot of those Stravinsky scores, in my view, don't even really work. I mean, one of the most interesting things about Balanchine, there are a lot of interesting things, but there's some music that almost needs the dance. And not Rite of Spring and not really Petrushka, but you get Stravinsky post-1930, the dance helps. It helps you. Without the dance, there's something about it that, I mean, why do great orchestras not play all that music? Very rare to hear even a performance of Symphony in Three Movements, which is an exciting piece, dramatic. Hardly ever. We play it here. I play it on piano. But when you see it with the dance, you know, it puts you right back into the, you know, you're there in World War II and the boats are floating around the Pacific and, you know, there's bombs flying and, you know, it just helps. It's— but it's not— somehow Stravinsky sometimes is not enough. It's like there's something suggested that maybe is not fully realized. But still, it's great. It's great stuff. We do tons and tons. I can't tell you how many Stravinsky pieces.

Yeah, but how many— how many programs or how many different programs do you have at New York City Ballet?

Well, I mean, You know, different seasons are different.

Right, right, right.

I mean, and, you know, believe it or not, we used to do seasons regularly with 50 ballets, 50 full-length ballets a season.

Oh my goodness.

I mean, it was insane. And, you know, that also had to do with the fact that, you know, the subscribers wanted to see the great Balanchine ballets. They were just hungry to to see them. And some of them honestly were sometimes like kind of thrown on. You know, they, you know, the dancer, our dancers are really fast. We, I mean, we can put, I've taught people, I've sat in the piano room in like Tivoli Concert Hall in Denmark. You know, someone gets injured, you know, a principal dancer. Joaquin learned Jeu de Cartes by Stravinsky. One of the most complicated Stravinsky scores. He learned this principal role in 5 hours and went and performed it that night. You know, and we just, we just hacked away at it all afternoon. And, you know, he did it. It was great. And that happens not infrequently. Too much repertoire, but, but tons and tons and tons of great stuff. I mean, you should see you should see the music cabinet in the music room. I should bring you into the music room and just take out the scores. You know, what's there would just, I mean, you know, there's, there's Webern scores, there's, you know, there's scores by all these great living composers. There's like, you know, 10 Philip Glass scores there. You know, there's, You know, I just can't even tell you. There's, you know, John Adams was here for a while. We play like, I think we play 5 John Adams scores. I play often Hallelujah Junction for 2 pianos. You should play it if you like that sort of thing. It's really one of his best pieces. It's really fantastic fun. Beautiful. We do Fearful Symmetries, we do Harmonie Léaire, huge pieces. And, you know, like, for example, we play Fearful Symmetries, we play it on the piano in the rehearsals. I mean, I haven't played it in 15 years, but I, you know, play the whole, you know, 30 minutes of, you know, John Adams, you know, it gets really hard.

Wow.

But so many different repertoire that you are using in the ballet.

That's fun. It's fun. If you're that kind of musician, you should definitely work here. You should definitely. And if you're someone who just likes music and has a lot of facility at the piano and, you know, like it's, you know, they need you. These days, you know, people get really like, piano is so hard and people really get into their box. And I know that, you know, the new generations are expanding a lot. Even a lot of classical musicians improvise a little bit now.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

It's changed. I mean, it used to be when I was in Juilliard, it was like, holy, holy cow, you know, believable, you know.

Yeah.

You know, like you just, you know, every practice room, you know, like people are trying to get those fingers moving and, you know, and yeah, it's good, you know, if that's what you want to do, great.

Right. And, but I think, you know, I mean, we need to talk about how we're going to bring this industry forward, right? So then especially this post-pandemic era, and then you mentioned as pianists, we tend to be in the room practicing all the time and not communicating with others, not collaborating with others, but that sort of culture has to change. I know we have to practice on our own, but your job, your career is all about working with others, working with people, in the people, and that's something that I want to encourage new generations to experience and You know, don't just get stuck in the practice room all day, but experience the life, and that's how you experience music too.

I completely agree.

So, let's talk about your career and life outside outside of New York City Ballet. So you have this ongoing project with a painter, right? Her name is Karen Kapke.

Okay, well, years ago I decided that to focus my energies outside the ballet, my energies that had to do with me as a recitalist, I decided to focus it on late works, pieces that composers wrote toward the end of their lives. And I was inspired by a book called Late Style by Edward Said, who's a philosopher, was a philosopher at Columbia, and it was very famous in that field. And he was also a friend of Daniel Barenboim. Oh, he was very involved with Israeli-Palestinian issues. And in fact, that was, I think, the basis of how they got together, because Daniel Barenbaum was Israeli. Mm-hmm. Said was Palestinian. And, and I think that he may have had to do with the founding of this East-West The Piano Pod with the orchestra that exists where they have Palestinians and Israelis play together. They've done shows around the world. Anyway, he's a very interesting— and he wrote about late Beethoven and late Strauss and late Mozart. So my project is to learn and perform the last 3 Beethoven sonatas, the last 3 Schubert sonatas. And the Prokofiev War Sonatas, but I don't like the 6th Sonata that much.

Oh no.

So I'm not going to do it.

Okay.

And I don't think I'm going to do it. And so I substitute the Copland Piano Fantasy, which is a very late Copland work.

Mm-hmm.

It always meant a lot to me. So based on those pieces and and surrounding them with lots of other pieces, late Ligeti etudes, late Arvo Pärt pieces, Philip Glass etudes are fairly late, I play those. So that's the music part of the project. And then, Karen created paintings as a result of our conversations. About the music. And we've done 3 of these recitals, recitals/art exhibitions. You can see when you see— hear me playing the Copland Fantasy, you can see there are people sitting on the right and left of me and there are paintings behind them. And then in back of the piano is a projection of the painting that is the Copland Piano Fantasy painting. But the other paintings actually were from other parts of the recital and had been projected onto the wall, onto the screen. You know, when I played the other pieces, I played a Bach piece and I played Opus 111 and even a Bill Evans transcription, transcription of jazz, uh, jazz solo, and she painted that as well. So that's a perfect example of what we did. And then, so we did that in different places, you know, 3 recitals. They're very complicated to put together, especially as most musicians know when you do these things, you know, there's— my job is at New York City Ballet, it's very satisfying, but when I do these other things, There's no management. There's no stage manager to greet me. Everything is, you know, there's no one to make my programs.

Right.

You have to embrace it if you want to do those things. And I have. I get inspired by— maybe this is too heady, but there was a great visual artist, conceptual artist named Christo. He died recently. Maybe you know him. He made environmental art. I think they called it that, something like that. It's kind of a silly name, but he would— years ago, he made something called The Gates in Central Park. I think maybe before you were born. But I mean, my daughter was like 2 when he did it. And what he did is all the paths of Central Park, there were like these kind of curtains that fell over the path and on these little metal constructions and they were orange. And it was very beautiful and it was through the whole park. And he did this all over the place. He did it in the mountains of California. He did it in Japan. Different things, not just curtains. And he was really great. And he said that the thing that interested him was how he had to work through the bureaucracy to get the permits. And, and it wasn't just the art, it was about the process of producing the art. So I like to think, when I get depressed that I have to call too many people on the phone when I do my own projects, I like to think idealistically that you're really in the world, you're finding out how, how, how things work, you know, you're you're relating to people, you're talking to secretaries, you're talking to, you know, heads of Opera America, you know, you've got to be personable, you've got to be, you know, you want to work together with them and enter these other worlds that are a little more cut and dry.

Right, right. Yeah, yeah.

So, it's a challenge, but it's It's an interesting challenge. And ultimately, if we can't operate in the world, no matter how high our ideals, it's very important to be able to operate in the world in a way that's consistent with your values, not to sell out, but as an act of connection and even being generous to yourself. You want to feel that you're connected and you have a meaningful way of interacting with colleagues, with your bosses. All these things are really important. And I do think that, and maybe I get this a little bit from Gil Kalish, because Gil Kalish was like super mensch. Like super great guy, you know, like, you know, he was a musician, but he was like, you know, it was like everyone said, oh, Gil, he was like a regular guy, you know, and, you know, like, but he was, he was very, you could tell that he paid a lot of attention to people. And that was like the main thing he taught us, I think, was that, you know, it's just, it's not just about you and your piano playing, you know, it's about, it's about more than that. And, and your life, and that's a really important thing. No matter who you are, no matter where your gift placed you.

Yeah, absolutely.

You want to have a good life, and generally it makes it easier to communicate something so precious if you have, you know, if your environment is fulfilled in a way, full.

Absolutely. And then you're really living the beautiful life surrounded by people and then surrounded by beautiful art. And now, are you— do you plan to do this project with the painter Karen soon?

I think we might be done with the paintings actually. Now I'm looking for— maybe you know somebody. I'm looking for actors.

Okay.

To recite poetry. And probably I'll bring it all together, but I, you know, this is one of my things is what I was talking about, about dance is that I think when there's another medium that's set against music, it helps the audience. You know, I'm very frustrated because I like some very esoteric music like late Beethoven and stuff, but I want the audience to get it. I want them to enjoy it. I don't want them to go, "Oh, that sounds really complicated." You know, and so when they have a painting like in the Copland or in the Beethoven, you know, they have this painting of what I think is a picture of a kind of feminist message actually of, a kind of disturbance, you know, helps. You know, it's somehow, you know, it helps the audience. They connect, you know, oh, this is disturbing.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Awesome. I'm not— it's not beautiful. It's beautiful in its disturbingness.

Right, right, right.

You know, and so they see a painting— in other art forms, people understand that. But in music, sometimes people, they just want everything to be beautiful, you know.

Yeah, everything to be pretty, right?

Pretty.

Yeah, pretty.

Pretty.

Ah, yes.

Yeah.

Right. We want to stay away from prettiness. We—

Well, a little prettiness is okay. You know, like Fauré has a lot of prettiness.

That's right.

But on a high level.

But sometimes we need grotesque in beauty, right?

Absolutely. Otherwise nothing means anything. Otherwise there is no beauty.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Really. And that's what's great about collaborating with other art forms. So you get it. I mean, it's just such a damn relief too. Because it's like, you know, you just, you want to play these solo pieces, but, you know, you, you, you're not, you're not, most of us are not famous pianists, you know, who get to play them many, many times. You want to make it special for yourself and you want to make it an event for your audience, and otherwise it's just, it's not fun.

It's just, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you for really sharing your wisdom. So I want to promote New York City Ballet. And is there anything that you want to say about upcoming events or program?

Well, we're having the spring season coming up that starts in April, late April. The great thing about New York City Ballet now is we have gotten Alexei Ratmansky as our artist in residence. Alexei is, you know, along with Justin Peck, who's really amazing. He actually did the new West Side Story movie. He was the choreographer. But Alexei is arguably the greatest choreographer of our time. And in my opinion, and a lot of people think that. He is so great. He is just so great. And he also choreographs really great music to really like Shostakovich concertos and things. And we are just so fortunate to have him coming here. I mean, it's just, it's, you know, this is the company of Balanchine and Robbins and, you know, Alexei Alexei is a really— and Justin too, but, you know, Justin's really amazing. But Alexei is, I mean, getting him is just a wonderful thing for everyone. The dancers in particular, they love working with great choreographers like Justin and Alexei. They just love it. You know, it's like when you worked with your greatest piano teacher ever, like Leon Fleischer, whoever you played for, that's the way they feel when they're in the studio with Alexei.

Wow.

Wow. And that's what you want them to have. You want that for them.

Wow.

So for those who are listening and watching, please visit www.nycballet.com to learn more about New York City Ballet and their programs and their new season coming up in late April. So this has been a really fun and inspiring conversation, Alan. And I, uh, unfortunately I have to let you go very soon because your rehearsal is coming up. But before I let you go, we have one more thing to do. It's called The Piano Pod Rapid Fire Questions. I didn't warn you, but this is part of the show where I get to ask fun questions to each guest. Now here's a little warning: as silly as these questions may sound, your answers may reveal who who you truly are.

So, yes, I'm pretty good at hiding that.

So, okay, good. So please answer them with the shortest responses as possible and no— yes, no explanation needed. Okay.

Oh God.

All right, so question number 1: What is your comfort food?

The restaurant across the way from, uh, us, it's It's a kind of African-influenced restaurant in the new renovated David Geffen Mall. Anything they have there is my comfort food.

Great. I need to try. I need to try that. Now, how do you like your coffee?

With half and half and no sugar.

Sounds great.

Or in Starbucks, what do they say? A light splash. Light splash.

Cats or dogs?

Both.

What is your word or words to live by?

Freedom.

What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Understanding.

Name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead.

Abraham Lincoln, Schubert, Ratmansky.

Sounds good. Name one piece in your current playlist.

Horace Silver's Song for My Father. It's a jazz.

So last question, fill in the blank, music is blank.

Fulfillment.

Yay, ding ding ding, you won. Thank you so much, Alan, for really joining here today.

Thank you, Yukimi. I really appreciate the opportunity to share these things with you, and I hope that, you know, everyone will find a good path for themselves, either as professional musicians or transforming that dream into something beautiful.

Well said. So this concludes the episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Alan Menken. Thank you once again, Alan, for joining my show today and sharing your stories and insights and expertise. And you can find more information about New York City Ballet. Please visit nycballet.com. And thank you to my wonderful audience and fans for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review it on whatever podcasting platform you use. If you are watching us on YouTube, remember to hit the thumbs up button and subscribe to my channel. You can also find my show on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. The links are listed in the show notes. I will see you for the next episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Alan.

Bye everyone, and thank you, Alan.