Season 3 Finale: Maryam Raya -- Concert Pianist & Entrepreneur

Welcome back to another episode and the last episode of Season 3 of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. This is the last one until I return for Season 4 in mid-September. For this season finale, I interviewed Ms. Maryam Raya, concert pianist, entrepreneur, and once described as a complete artist of the 21st century. I wanted to invite her as a guest speaker for the Season 3 finale episode because I thought it was timely and appropriate to finish this fantastic season with a pianist like Maryam, who is not only an incredible artist, but also she is an entrepreneur. Has a degree in literature and also another degree in business management from Italy. She also collaborates with professionals from the film industry. Yeah, she is living the life. Anyway, you know, I first started this podcast with my colleagues at the height of the pandemic, and in the last 3 years, I got to interview many incredible pianists and composers, educators, and entrepreneurs who are thinking outside the box. To engage with 21st century audiences creatively. Honestly, it's been interesting because each season has its own sort of theme, and Season 1 was mostly about how we could get through isolation, right? And what we were learning through unusual circumstances that were happening globally. We were in survival mode at the time. Then Season 2 was mostly about what they discovered Through the Pandemic Life. And now at the end of Season 3, this entire season has been a growing experience for me as a podcaster, educator, pianist, and most importantly, as a person. I've learned so much through each guest and content creation. Anyway, this season's theme, without much intention on my end, has been all about audience engagement. I guess 3+ years of pandemic really forced us to think about who we are and rediscover and redefine our mission as artists and music educators. So to complete this series of audience engagement, Miriam is the perfect guest to end it on a high note so that I can reset the mindset for the next season, which is Season 4. And I cannot wait to meet the future guests of The Piano Pod through interesting conversations and learn how they will lead the new season's pathway. So before getting started, I want to welcome everyone who is listening or watching The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song for the first time. I'm I'm a classical pianist and educator from New York City, passionate about creating a thriving and meaningful community of the classical music industry through this podcast. Please visit yukimisongstudio.com to find out more about my work. In each episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, I interview a guest speaker who has been breaking exciting new ground in the industry. Before getting started, I want to thank everyone for tuning in. Please rate the show and review it on wherever you get your podcasts because every rating and review will help people find my show. So here you go, dear friends, the season finale of The Piano Pod with a guest, Mariam Raya. Please enjoy the show. You are listening to The Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century. I am honored to welcome Mariam Raya, American-born international concert pianist, entrepreneur, and Complete Artists of the 21st Century as a season finale of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Miriam. Welcome, Miriam. Thanks for being here.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. I'm very excited to be able to interview you and then really hear your stories. So your videos and photos showed up in my social media feed quite often. I think obviously you're both pianists and we're both from New York City, so probably we have quite a lot of mutual friends. And I noticed your performances on social media, photos, very beautiful professional photos. And then also, from what I understood, I think you went to NYU or you taught there.

Yes, the kind of professional certificate. And then yes, 2 years teaching there, about 20 hours a week, I remember.

Oh, yeah, I did the same thing, professional degree at NYU. So I don't think we crossed paths each other because I think I graduated first. Much older. But yeah, I think that's one of the reasons I see you quite often and I knew of you. Then also, you used to be, I think, a fashion model, and then you were into visual art. That got me really interested because I love visual art too. And then, for example, even like fashion, you know, to me, fashion designers are artists. And people often associate fashion with luxurious things, but actually they're artists. And like, any other art form like paint and sculpture. And so they're basically displaying their art on the human bodies. But I can talk about fashion forever.

But anyways, you can talk about fashion as much as you want.

It's really fun. Anyway, so you were described as a complete pianist of the 21st century by this French magazine, and I really love that. And then I usually ask this philosophical questions toward the end of the show, but I wanted to start with with you with this. What is a complete pianist of the 21st century like? I'm looking at her right in front of my eyes through this computer screen right now, but in your words, how do you describe it? What does it mean to you?

I think kind of going back to that interview I had with that magazine, I remember talking a lot about how piano is sort of the medium with which I feel I want to not only express myself but be able to achieve a sense of craftsmanship. I think that piano and music in general is such an abstract art form. And I think part of that contrasting to something that's, you know, visual or like going to a gallery is that when you're— when you're kind of looking at something visual, it's a lot more immediate. And as pianists, we have to think about how do we make this abstract form that immediate? And so for me, piano is just the starting point to achieve that. And the sort of completeness that I really strive towards as an artist is being inspired by like You are fashion. I'm also very inspired by fashion, also literature. And I think that's very much in line with the tradition of these great composers that we play, because they were in their own respective times very much impacted and very much in conversation with other artists of their own times, um, in every single time period and all of classical music history and, you know, other types of music as well. So I think it's really important in the 21st century that we keep that tradition of being open and always using the text as a kind of starting point to think about, okay, this was, you know, written maybe a couple hundred years ago or 100 years ago or maybe 500 years ago. How do we reinterpret that for today? So I think I never really think about— I mean, of course, being— it's interesting because we talk so much as pianists about being honest. To the text. But funnily enough, part of that is also being honest to the context of the text and realizing that we are constantly reinterpreting every time we perform. I mean, I know you as a performing artist as well. I'm sure you've had pieces in your repertoire that you've played for many years. And for me, you know, every time, every time I practice, every time I prepare for a new performance, it's totally different. So it's a completeness of— these works are very much alive.

And I think that's really the job, one of the jobs or responsibilities as a pianist, right? Like what this piece of music from 300 years ago, for example, means to us, or how we can relate to this piece of music written so many, you know, decades or hundreds of years ago.

Absolutely. And I think even, you know, especially in 20th— with 20th century compositions, a lot of these composers dedicated their compositions to pianists who were living. They were written for pianists to perform at the time. But even then, even though it's, you know, so close, it's within the same context, the pianist is still interpreting. Everything is really an interpretation. And for me, that's part of why I respect teachers so much, because it's so difficult to be able to teach that sense of continual discovery. To a student. I mean, I know it's so difficult to, as a performer, to embody that. It's almost like you have to live it, right?

Right, absolutely.

And living in the tradition, right?

Living the tradition but in the 21st century time zone, right?

Yeah, definitely.

That's the challenging part. So for my listeners, let me reintroduce Miriam Raya by citing her brief bio. Miriam has performed at world-renowned concert halls such as Carnegie Hall, the Kennedy Center, Lincoln Center, and among many others, dazzling audiences with her virtuosity and exuberant energy for the arts. Her passion for the interconnectivity of all art forms has led her to perform in places outside of the traditional recital halls, such as art galleries and museums and film festivals and fashion festivals as well. And additionally, she has collaborated with New York's leading industry professionals in the film. Alongside with her studies at The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Miriam has obtained degrees in literature with honors, and recently she completed her business management degree from the Bocconi School of Management. Miriam is passionate about making classical music accessible to younger audiences. With upcoming performances and exciting new projects on the horizon, Miriam is enthusiastic about connecting with audiences around the globe through her performance and social media. So here we are continuing our conversation to learn more about Myriam's adventurous life and exciting career as a concert pianist and entrepreneur, which will later lead us to a more philosophical discussion about her vision for the classical piano industry. So Myriam, let's start with this: How did you discover the love for piano? Is your family musical?

It's funny you ask. When I saw that first question, you know, my parents are not musicians. I am the first musician in my family. My parents felt that it was very important for me to have an early childhood music education. They felt that that's part of the general education. They felt that artistic and musical education can help in so many other subjects and that the discipline it takes to practice piano every day can really translate to everything in life.

Right.

Absolutely. So they started me at a very young age. I think I was maybe 4 years old. And I kind of took off with it, which is something that they never expected, but they were very supportive. So that was very interesting for them. And now they're very much into classical music. My mom loves opera, Broadway, and my dad loves classical music as well. So it's been a journey for us all. Let's just put it that way.

You seem to have bases in multiple locations worldwide. You are a world traveler. Like, every time I try to connect with you and you're like, oh, I'm traveling. So did you grow up in an environment where you travel quite often, like your family business?

Well, I, so I was born in Washington, DC, and I did do many performances, especially in my teenage years that were in also many festivals. I had the opportunity to travel for those. And then I guess more recently, because I decided to do my business administration degree abroad in Milan, that was a really fantastic location to study because it's very central to Europe. So that gave me the opportunity to be able to easily travel, especially for concerts from there. Born in DC and now based in New York City. So totally East Coast.

That's right. Tell me about your musical training and maybe your mentors.

Yeah. So as I mentioned, I studied quite early, started quite early. Actually, my parents first put me in a group class called Music Mind Games. I'm not sure. It's, I think, Suzuki Method.

Okay.

And that was when I was 3 or 4. And then they started me with private piano lessons. And as a teenager growing up in the sort of DC metropolitan area, I was very lucky to study with a piano faculty on the University of Maryland campus. His name was Michal Walczak. So I did my pre-college studies with him. And then I went to the Eastman School of Music for my bachelor's and master's, and I studied with Natalia Antonova. So I'm very much of the Russian piano school, and that's— I love a lot of Russian pianists. I play a lot of Russian composers. So those two were really my main teachers after my master's in At Eastman, I moved to New York 2015, and I've been pretty much solidly based from here ever since. I've had, you know, I've had the opportunity to study, especially through youth festivals and kind of competitions. I've had the opportunity to study with so many, you know, living concert artists through master classes. And it's always so inspiring to, from an early age, just gain the wisdom from someone who's doing the thing. And just like my mentors, I was always very inspired by those teachers in my life. I mean, larger than life personalities.

And also, you are interested in different things, not only music, and probably you excelled in them too. So, for example, literature. So you are a literature enthusiast.

And I love literature. That's actually why I went to Eastman because it was very difficult for me, uh, when I was 15 because I really wanted to study both. Mm-hmm. And, you know, so I was looking at a lot of dual degree programs, but you know, more importantly, I was really looking for something not that would be 95% conservatory, 5% academics, but I was really looking to have a solid like BA in literature alongside my piano studies. And what I really loved about Eastman was that it's this program with the University of Rochester, uh, really enabled me to study, you know, piano obviously at a very high level with Natalia Antonova, who was just incredible, and then also have a really solid education, undergraduate education, in something academic. So that's, that's really why I was, I was very, you know, grateful to have had that opportunity because I really wanted to have, especially as an undergraduate, that kind of base.

Right. Now, do you ever marry these two together, as in musical training to your your knowledge and interest in literature?

I do, and it's— in terms of marrying them, that's really reflected mostly in the sort of repertoire that I choose to play. I can maybe give an example of that. Liszt has his Years of Pilgrimage that were, you know, inspired by his travels and also the literature and the artwork of so many different cultures. And I performed the Italian one more— most recently, and I really enjoy sharing, uh, when I perform you know, for audiences, I really enjoy sharing that this, for example, the Petrarch sonnets, this is based on these poems. And it's, it's not even that it's just based on them, it's literally the musical version of them. Like, he wanted to be so honest with the literary source. And so this, the way I married my two loves of life, my two passions, is that I go back to what we were talking about earlier, that everything is just so connected. And embodying that is, I think, our challenge as artists because it's so easy to split them apart, but that's not entirely honest, right?

It's very easy to split them apart because sometimes we have to shut off some noise to— in order for us to be able to practice for hours, hours, right?

So, oh, that's— yeah, that's a whole other conversation we should actually have because, you know, as pianists we're so— it's like it's a high barrier to entry just from the beginning, because, I mean, vocalists, for example, I don't think they can practice more than 1 hour or an hour and a half, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Very physical. But as pianists, it's so much time just to be able to master the medium. And so to go further as an artist and really to realize that the piano is a medium and it's not just the end, but it's actually just the tool to express something so much larger is really difficult when mastering the tool itself takes a lifetime and more than a lifetime.

I know we can never accomplish all the piano literature out there in one life, right? Yes.

Well, that's— yeah, it's a blessing and a curse. I mean, I know that's super cliché, but there so many works that I just randomly will discover on YouTube played by also new pianists that I've discovered that have fortunately left recordings. And I'll be able to— it's just completely something new every day, not only with the pieces in the repertoire that we've been playing for years, but just in general. It's like very vast.

Yeah, absolutely. In continuation with that conversation, you know, as being pianist, basically being stuck in the practice room hours and hours. And also it takes certain personality to become pianist, right? Because if you are always outgoing and always with people, that's very difficult. It's a very difficult profession. However, however, I feel like we have to be engaged with more people, more audience engagement, which we will discuss in a minute. So after graduating with music degrees and in literature too. What was it like to be in the real world as a concert pianist? Was it like red carpet ready? Everybody is ready for you?

No, I don't think that's the case for— No. When you study something, and this is the case, I think, in any field, that when you study something and then you want to apply it to the real world, it's like a total wake-up moment. Because in school, in any conservatory or any, obviously, university music program, you're really working on from, in my case, it was 1 or 2 serious programs a year preparing for a jury. And as pianists, I mean, most of us are naturally extremely detail-oriented, so that's great. We really get to go deep into these works, and we usually graduate after bachelor's or after master's with this kind of serious collection, I should say, of, you know, serious works of the literature that we can play really well. And then when we go out in the real world, we don't necessarily realize that sometimes, sometimes those super serious pieces are not necessarily accessible naturally to an audience. I definitely went through a huge learning curve, and I don't think I'm the only one, trying to figure out how to learn to adapt, because it's like, it's kind of just totally different muscle that you have to learn. And I'm still, I'm still learning. You know, I had a, I had a concert recently that I didn't realize just, just in terms of the venue, like I needed to make a last minute change in the program essentially because sometimes you don't realize like, oh, this, this program maybe is too heavy for the occasion or maybe I need to add something else or, you know, it's too much virtuoso stuff or it's too much, you know, Chopin Waltz, like mellow sentimental stuff. So you just never know and you have to be so flexible. Flexible, right? And it's very, very difficult because I think even pianists who have been performing for 3, 4 decades, they still have their surprises. And I think the most challenging thing about it is that no one can really teach that. I mean, like, so much in the real world, like, nobody— you just have to go out and you learn, like, every occasion, how to program, like, how to— I know we're going to talk about marketing, but how to sell a program, what to say. Even with talking to audiences, what's interesting to me about a composer might not necessarily be interesting to the audience.

Right.

So it's this constant process of seeing what you're doing objectively. And in the same way that we kind of listen to ourselves in the practice room to figure out, like, okay, this details, this needs improvement, et cetera, et cetera. We do that all our lives, you know, and like constantly just getting outside ourselves and trying to figure out what works.

Sure, sure. But that's a, I guess, interesting part of actually going out there and become the person, right? Rather than just stuck in the practice room and hoping for something to happen. So now let's talk about your career as an international concert pianist performing at venues you know, from, let's say, Carnegie Hall, Kennedy Center, and also you do perform at venues outside of these traditional recital halls. So tell me, do you have any interesting experience?

Yeah, so actually today I just was looking at the Facebook memories, and so one year ago today was a favorite experience actually, and that was in Italy. Where I got to collaborate with the Stained Glass Museum. And it's Venetian stained glass. It's like a very much Italian craftsmanship. Yeah, it was a conference with this glassmaking artist, and they really wanted to have that complemented with just a short program. So that was so inspiring because it was a pretty good-sized audience of just interested. It was like a cultural kind of organization. There were about 60 people there, and I— they put the piano in the center and just these kind of tables with the open books just showing the glass art, and you can read about it. And the glass artist was there, is originally from, uh, Venice. That was so moving to me because something I really like to talk about and like to think about is the fact that pianists were really just craftsmen. And it was so inspiring to be alongside someone and just contribute to a conference where they're sort of showing how valuable that is, especially now when everything is slowly becoming so much more digitized. I think it's really important and really precious when we can just appreciate what's actually done with the human hand, literally.

Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, but you're really living the dream. You get to perform in these interesting venues, and, you know, not just in Italy and New York, but also you performed in Dubai, I think. No?

Yeah, one. I was quite young. I got the opportunity. I'm thinking along the lines of DC. I got the opportunity in the Polish embassy to play Paderewski's Piano Pod with him.

Wow. Really?

Yeah. I played the Third Ballade of Chopin. I remember it because that was my first time performing the Third Ballade, and I was very nervous. When we're younger, I think I would have been even more nervous now because when we're younger, we don't We don't know what we don't know.

Exactly. You seem to also play not only the regular well-known pieces, but also I've seen your performance of, let's say, Joseph Hoffman, which, you know, not a lot of people would play those pieces. I loved "Elegy," "Vision," and some other pieces by Hoffman. What's your obsession or attraction toward Joseph Hoffman?

Oh, it's an obsession. I'm worried I'm going to talk too much.

Okay.

No, no, no.

I actually want you to talk a lot. Yeah, I want to.

Okay, good. About Hoffman.

Hoffman. Yes.

Okay. So my first experience with Hoffman was actually during my undergrad at Eastman. It was in Kilbourne Hall, which is one of the recital halls there. It was a concert, a guest artist, and he came out and just didn't even wait for the audience to stop clapping and just started this piece that made such an impression on me. I mean, people looked at the program obviously, but nobody recognized the piece, and what it was was Hoffman's Kaleidoscope. If people know that Hoffman composed, they probably know it from 'Kaleidoscope.' It's the most played of the not-very-much-played, and his student, Shura Cherkassky, has a pretty famous recording of that, which definitely helped increase the attention, increase the marketing, if you will. I think he had been a formal pianist, a former doctoral student at the school, he had such a command and a freedom that was so inspiring to me. And so I never really started studying Hoffman's work seriously until 2020, when all of a sudden so much of us have a lot more practice time. And I remember I was, I was reading a lot about him because I knew that, of course, many pianists know that that even Rachmaninoff himself, when Rachmaninoff would be approached and, you know, told, you know, you're just the greatest pianist ever, like, of all time, and all of these, you know, compliments, Rachmaninoff would be just like, actually, there's one above me, and that's, you know, Joseph Hoffman. I was reading so much about his life, about his inventions, and his—

he was a, yeah, innovator. Like, he invented a lot of things, right? I know. And, you know, I got to interview this artist Hannah Reiman. She is actually the advocate for narrow-key piano. Oh, wow. Yes, it's called stretto piano, and there's like a really strong, like really firm community of this small-sized keys and the digit. And then some people get piano degrees using stretto pianos.

Really?

Oh, yes, yes. There's a community now. And then the background of this piano being this size, you know, the one octave is 6.5 inches, has its own story. It started around Franz Liszt, him being the 6-foot-tall, you know, male, then as opposed to, you know, because piano keys used to be narrow anyway. So Joseph Hoffmann, I think, I believe he was a small-sized man, right?

Compared to—

Yeah. So the rough finding of being really big.

You know, that's an interesting contrast. Yeah, I never—

right? Yeah. Then the Hoffman— actually, Mr. Hoffman invented or created this narrow key, reinvented this narrow key piano. Yeah. So it's interesting. Yeah.

The thing I like so much— I know we're going to get into the kind of marketing and making, you know, classical music sort of accessible, which is always a touchy topic, depending on how you kind of phrase it. But the thing that I do like about Hoffman, the first thing that struck me about his compositions was that they're They're generally miniatures. I would say generally 5 to 7 minutes. I mean, his Elegy is like 2 and a half minutes, but they're generally shorter, smaller scale works. And they have these titles that are so— like, I recently, um, for a live broadcast, I recorded his Penguins, which is so humorous and so quirky.

Wow.

Yeah, and it's just— it's— this is like— this is even the compositions themselves, you know, their titles are evocative of something else. So this is something that in a way is kind of not surprising because he was primarily a concert artist and he probably performed, I mean, like crazy. I mean, I think he had some of maybe the most concerts of any pianist ever. So, of course, he would understand that, you know, what works and what doesn't because he's out there, you know, doing the thing. Yeah, he's— there are some, you know, technically difficult ones, but in general, they're very pianistic because they're written by a pianist.

This episode is presented in collaboration with our good friends at Forte, a free alternative to Zoom purpose-built for music teachers. Forte offers features optimized for classical music lessons, including audio quality far superior to existing platforms and allowing you to hear every nuance of your student's instrument. Their colleagues at the Royal College of Music, Aspen Music Festival, Curtis Institute, and Berklee College of Music have even used Forte in their own programs. Forte's mission is to radically expand access to high-quality music education worldwide. Forte always puts teachers and their students first. This means you can use Forte with your own students for free forever, and Forte will soon introduce paid features allowing you to connect with new students around the world. Sign up for free today at fortelessons.com or click the link in the description. Let's then talk about pianists, classical pianists, being creative. Creative process. Now, first of all, I get this from students' parents a lot. Oh, you classical pianists, you just read notes from the score as opposed to pianists of other genres. They improvise, so they are more creative. So classical musicians, you guys are not. That's what I hear. So that's why some of the parents shows a little bit of a resistance or hesitant about putting their kids into classical music training. So are we classical pianists creative, or can we, or should we?

I think we should be, and I think that inherently we can be, but that the tradition was more improvisatory. For example, when I was just listening— not recently, actually, this was some time ago— I was listening to one of Liszt's students playing his 12th Hungarian Rhapsody, obviously very old recording. And the way he improvised on it, and he improvised on it so much and he took so many liberties that it was almost as if the text itself was just a skeleton, wasn't— that was not supposed to be the finished product. And the finished product was supposed to be done by the performer. I don't know if I would say that it needs to be brought back in its entirety, but I think the thought behind the tradition is essential because going back to what we were talking about earlier with pieces we've had in our repertoire for so many years, I still— I never like to be locked into the mindset like, oh, I'm just bringing this back. I'm just bringing this back for another performance. I had my teacher when I was, I think, 11 or 12 told me, every time you look at the score, you need to see something different. Like, no matter, like, you need to find something different. You always need to go deeper. So we, you know, we are improvising because we're recreating in the moment, but it's just, again, so much more abstract.

Yeah, even the interpretation takes imagination sometimes. Of course, you get information from the score, but also information from reading the biography or all this research that was made by, you know, scholars and everything. But in the end, as you say, it just— every time you see the score, every time you go through the passage, it's different. That is actually the creative part of being a musician, right?

Totally.

So, you know, I've been doing this podcast for 3 years, and then last season, I think most of our conversations with most of the guests went toward this interdisciplinary work as a pianist, classical pianist and collaboration, how important it is. And then, you know, when times like this during pandemic made us really realize about the importance of connecting to other people, and then especially that's when we realized, oh, connecting to people that are not just within our industry or within the classical piano industry, but, you know, beyond that. So you are interested in many things and you, without even collaborating with others, you have your interdisciplinary sort of work and maybe even genre. I want to know, but also you do collaborate with film and visual artists. And I watched actually this video, you play Stravinsky etude, and then I think you collaborated with a videographer.

Yes, it was one of his études, I think, if I'm remembering correctly.

Yes.

And yeah, a friend of mine. Yeah, it's a very early Stravinsky to me is quite mystical. And I think I uploaded a video of me just kind of practicing it. And I have a friend at the time, videographer, really into nature. I think that video featured a lot of water. And he wanted to sort of set that. And I was really inspired by the way he set that piece because for two reasons. One, I think any sort of collaboration always, you know, adds to the, adds to the greater impact. So I think it made it much more effective than I playing alone ever could. And two, because in the same way as when you have, you know, you're, you play something for a great artist and you walk away from that meeting with this just so inspired with this new perspective. That's also possible with these kind of collaborations because the way he felt that piece made me see it in a completely new light. So I really value when I can learn. Ultimately, it's about learning from other people regardless of the medium, and I think the challenge as artists is to just make sure we remain open.

Hey TPP friends and listeners! The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Thanks to all of you for watching or listening to every episode its launch in 2020. I started this show with a simple question I had in mind for quite some time, which is how can we as classical pianists and music educators present the beautiful classical music tradition to the 21st century audience in a fun, contemporary, and engaging way. It's been an incredible journey for the last 3 years. I love what I do through this podcast, providing a platform for pianists and educators to reflect, and discuss freely how we can keep the classical music industry thriving and relevant in this rapidly changing world. Now more than ever, I need your support so that I can continue my work by bringing you highly valuable content biweekly by interviewing groundbreakers in the industry. Your support will go directly to all the costs of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, such as a yearly subscription to podcast hosting platform, the software I use for high-quality recording sessions and tech gear, as well as all the hours I spend researching and audio and video editing. You can make a one-time donation or monthly pledge by clicking the PayPal link in the show notes or going to TPP's website at thepianopod.com. As a thank you, you will receive The Piano Pod Pod's fun logo sticker in the mail. So please support my show today and don't forget to subscribe, continue listening, and tell your friends and colleagues about The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Let's now talk about music business. You went to school in Italy, right?

Yes, it's a— Stabiconi is the business school in Milan.

It says one of the 5% of business schools in the world to hold a triple-down accreditation. So what is this triple-down accreditation, first of all?

Uh, so it's, um, it's a very international school, so fortunately, you know, the, the program was in, was in English, so I had a little more time to learn my Italian off hours. But it's, uh, one of the best, one of the top 5 in Europe in terms of business schools. And so speaking of, you know, collaborating and meeting other people, my, the students from a very international background. I wasn't the only American, but there were also, you know, many other nationalities represented. So it was a great learning experience.

Did you go to this school during pandemic?

Uh, so kind of. I went from 2021 and I graduated in 2022. So not 2020, but it was still, there were still some restrictions, I think, in New York City and, and some in Italy, although as we know, Italy was hit the hardest.

Right. Yes, I remember. Now, what made you decide to pursue a business degree? Did this idea come during the pandemic where we all had to think about our future? It did.

Yeah, that was, I think, for all of us a time to really reflect. I felt the first thing, I felt I really need to broaden my skills. As much as I love being at the piano and as obsessive of a practicing person I was, you know, during my teenage years and during my undergrad and my master's, I felt like there had to be something more. I really wanted to learn the sorts of skills that would essentially help me, you know, whatever I end up doing. And the good thing, the reason I chose Stile Bocconi was that they have kind of specializations within the school. You can specialize in the luxury sector, for example, if you want to work for luxury companies, or you can specialize in the cultural sector, which is what I did, even, you know, hospitality. So they have these, these ways that you can make it more targeted or customized to ultimately how you want to use these skills, right?

What specifically you felt like you were missing out from your life that ultimately pursued this degree? Because it's very different from music itself, playing the piano, right?

It is. So music has such a large impact as a medium. However, the market itself is extremely small. And for me, when I saw, you know, classical market had already been struggling even before the pandemic, and when I saw how many changes needed to happen during the pandemic, I mean, especially digital-wise, recording industry, whether or not live performances would even be consistently possible again, you know, we were all thinking that in 2020. I just felt like I to have the option to broaden and to be able to see, okay, how do other markets work and how can this be applied to classical music? We talk so much about in business school about like, you know, the actual product, right? And that really applies to every field. And I think that if you understand the business side of things, you can ultimately make a better product, make a better experience that will reach more people, right? I don't subscribe to the view that classical music, just because of tradition, is immune to, to market forces. I think we all, we wish it would be that way, but it's not.

Yeah, uh, very interesting. With this 2-year, I guess 2 years of being abroad in Italy, this International Business School, what did you gain?

So in terms of the program, it was very accelerated, so I really learned how to balance a lot because I was also playing, uh, not so much in the beginning, but towards the tail end, that was, that was difficult. It was very very concentrated with many projects, uh, and many projects not only that were individually based, but many projects that were group-based. And so I learned just working with people. I equally got a lot of the experience in things that were sort of extrinsic to the program, just living abroad and ex— just being immersed in a totally new culture. I mean, I had to learn Italian very quickly, being forced to adapt is what keeps artists creative. Absolutely.

Absolutely. I agree. Yeah.

I actually wanted to— there's just an anecdote. So we had this CEO, or I guess I think technically the term is superintendent of La Scala, come to talk to the business school students. And one thing that he said— Dominique Meyer is his name— one thing that he said to all of us was almost to force ourselves to kind of change our surroundings. Because we learn so much when we just keep active and keep moving. Not only as creatives, but just as business people. I thought that was really, really inspiring, especially from, you know, someone who stands at, you know, the greatest opera house in the world. Because that really does apply not only to us business school students that he was talking to, but also to artists.

So let's talk about really business itself and marketing and branding. So let's start with this word business. So among our fellow classical musicians, when I use the word business, sometimes people correct me, oh, I'm not doing any business. Or let's say, oh, you're such an entrepreneur, as in I was complimenting this person because she has done so much with this, you know, creating this organization and But then they often express themselves as such, like with such a disgusted expression on their faces, then they deny. And then some of these people say, I don't do business, I'm an artist, and music is a holy thing, and making a business out of something so sacred like playing Bach is not my thing. And so what do you think about this?

I understand their perspective. Because the way I see it, if you're looking at, I guess, products and markets, classical music is something that's such a human experience that it's— you cannot really— it's incredibly subjective. You obviously cannot quantify it. At the same time, we live in the real world, and I think we have to be able to communicate that I would say unique selling proposition, that, that like incredible value, we have to be able to communicate it to more people because there is a market for it. And it all depends on how much we can adapt the sort of experience we provide, if that makes sense.

Yes.

I, I have so much respect in general for, you know, just obviously classical musicians, you know, being one, I know how much, how much work it takes. And so I really, I respect the hesitancy because it's almost like it doesn't feel sort of pure to think of it from a business perspective. And I think that's probably the source. Yeah. That when you talk to like the examples you're giving me, that's probably the source that they feel like this is something that's so much higher. But, and it is. Yeah. It absolutely is. But nobody's gonna know that if it doesn't reach the real world.

Right, right, right, right. Absolutely. Yeah.

Nobody's gonna know that if just in the practice room.

So when the pandemic started, I started thinking— well, even before, I just felt the huge disconnect between the general audience and then the classical musicians. This is one of the reasons I wanted to start this podcast, just to really explore and discover what's missing and how we can fill the gap. Is that part of the branding, marketing in general?

So it's different to brand an artist versus branding the actual music itself. One thing that makes me really happy to see, that's a lot of progress, is that more musicians are more comfortable talking about the works they play. I think that that's, in terms of a movement towards change, from what I can see, that's the number one change that's been happening. And I think people love it because, you know, as performers, I mean, it is even— we're actors in a way. I mean, our— we have the piano as a medium, but essentially we are actors, we're communicating something else. And I think that if we can actually talk directly to an audience, that contextualizes a lot. And that's something that's a very— it's effective and it doesn't require so much more than just 2 minutes before a piece, you know, or before like a collection of pieces. But in terms of branding, I think the challenge really relates to a lot of what I was talking about at the outset of the interview, which is programming. Figuring out what pieces work when and for what occasion. For example, some Hoffman pieces are so virtuosic and so difficult, and maybe an audience just wants to hear, you know, Moonlight Sonata, right? And that's fine, you know. I think there's a reluctance among pianists to— it's like, it's like almost like it's too cliché to play. So I think that we, we have to be aware of how the incredibly high value of our art can also distance ourselves. And that— it's, it's, again, it's always a double-edged thing.

Yeah, but I also feel like giving the audience some sort of a context, right? Rather than just playing those obscure pieces or pieces that are just too high-end. But then we can bring that high-end piece to the place where it's approachable. By giving them the context, do you think?

Right. And it's, yeah. And again, it's, it's much more difficult with music because for example, with a museum, you know, I could see in a collection some really unknown artist using a really sophisticated and incredible technique. And I just see it and I form an impression. It's like, that's amazing. And I move on. With music, because it's something that's more abstract, that's unfolding in time, it's almost like we have to work harder to make a statement.

Right.

We have to work harder to make it more accessible. And I really admire so much artists that know, really have a really strong grasp on how to program for different people and not just about what the artist likes to play, but what the audience might appreciate and is able to kind of navigate. It's almost like a chef. It's very much— it's like you have to curate a menu in a way.

Definitely. Well, that's a good analogy. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think this is something that that, you know, as the 21st century pianist, we all have to do, you know, because the audience are not really created for you anymore. You have to go and get them, don't you think?

Absolutely.

Yeah. By getting this venue to perform doesn't mean the audience will come automatically. You actually have to go out and get them. And they are there, as in, like, audiences are waiting for you, right? Somewhere in the world.

They're there. And I, I mean, but it's, it's the same in any, even, okay, like look at technology. Everybody uses technology. Yeah. There are always tech products coming out. Even if a tech product is amazing and great and stylish, it still needs to be sold. It still needs to be marketed.

Mm-hmm.

We all know Apple. Mm-hmm. We all, like a lot of us, you know, have like iPhones, love iPhones, but we wouldn't know about how incredible it was unless it was marketed, unless it was sold. It's not just because of its superior design and superior quality that we're just gonna go out and experience it, right? So, you know, that's what I mean by the fact that it's like, yeah, classical, you know, classical music has this incredible tradition, and as pianists, it's almost like an elite sport, but we also live in the real world, and we need to, like, we need to work within those parameters in a way, right?

So what's the secret there? Where does the magic happen? When you finally discover your audience and really sync with them? You know, just like you mentioned about Apple, it's— they're not just this wonderful, highly designed products, right? But there is a magic that happened, and it's like, whoa, I have this Apple iPhone or Apple products. How does this magic can happen?

Well, I think the one thing, uh, and this maybe is a controversial opinion, but I think piano artists need to not be so reliant on— how do I say this— the infrastructure of the industry, like not be reliant on agents, managers, venues. Social media has been something that I've found really great success with. When I say venues, I don't mean— I mean, I think artists need to be able to just contact on their own. So many times we think that that an agent, if we play, you know, amazingly, an agent is just going to kind of pick us up, or a manager will pick us up, or I mean, even like if we win a competition, even, you know, winning an international competition, I mean, it does not guarantee, right?

Absolutely.

A career. And the reason for that is because careers aren't made by competitions, they're made by other people.

Amen. Yeah, absolutely.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. It's really by people, right?

Yeah, everything is a people profession. That's like, this is like the revelation I honestly had, like in the pandemic, because we go to school and we're sort of boxed in in music school to think like, this is what the career is and this is what the career is going to be. But we don't really realize that the career is made by people who are the same as us, just on the other side of things. And we need to be able to communicate as people, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. What our product, as much as I know, probably some people hate that, but— we need to be able to communicate what that is. It's not going to speak for itself is basically what I'm trying to say.

Right. So, you know, by doing our work and playing beautifully is just a display of the product. But to connect this product to the general audience, that's another— that's the marketing, that's the branding, right?

I would say so.

Now, I want to know your thoughts on being present and having a footprint in the digital world. You are very much active on social media. I enjoy your posts. Hosts, and I do as much as I can too. And then I'm gaining some momentum right now. It's not about popularity, but creating your own audience. Some people are hesitant about still having to have the footprint in the digital world. So, you know, including music streaming services and of course the social media from Instagram to TikTok to, uh, so many others.

So it's interesting you mentioned, sorry, social media, because I honestly wish I started earlier. I, again, I didn't start until 2020. Two reasons. I, well, the first reason I was taking videos of me playing is because I needed to hear myself objectively. And the second reason was like, okay, I should probably share this to someone because I have no live concerts anymore and I want to feel like I have goals. Sometimes, especially with livestream, it's great to have the pressure of people watching in real time to just keep you in shape. So that's kind of how it started. I'm not as consistent as I probably should be. I mean, I really admire people who are able to post even every week, let alone every day. I like to kind of just post a lot of my favorites and some kind of more famous pieces. One thing I love to do is, especially with pianists who follow me, is I love to post something that's a little bit unknown and have people kind of guess, you know, just make it really interactive. That's always fun. But the most rewarding thing about social media for me actually goes back to Hoffman because I had some pianists tell me that they never knew Hoffman composed and they really like his pieces and they're starting to look at his pieces. And that just made me so happy because it makes me feel like I can— it's not just about the fact that I like it and other people like it too. It's about the fact that I shared something that was new. And so that's been really, really rewarding.

Yeah. And I think it's really more relevant these days to have this as one of the ways to create your community and audience, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah. So what are you going to do with your music business degree? Are you going to build your own business? I mean, being a pianist is almost like having your, to have your own business anyway, but what would you like to do with your degree?

So it was definitely more strictly a business degree. Not really music business, but I definitely feel—

Oh, that's right. I'm sorry. Yeah, it's a business degree.

No, no, I'm just— I was going to say that I definitely feel that being a pianist is already very entrepreneurial, be able to create your own opportunities. So ultimately, I feel that the business skills I learned, and especially like the sales and the marketing skills, are kind of going to help me in their own vein, but also going to help me sort of figure out how to contextualize my piano playing into sort of more broadly what I want to do. It's funny because I feel like I'm starting to see, especially since the pandemic, a lot of musicians are getting business certificates and that kind of thing. And so if you're listening, I highly recommend because I learned a lot.

You know, honestly, I was studying during pandemic about marketing, so I read, you know, all Seth Godin's book, you know, Purple Cow and everything. And then also So I took some free courses online, like Coursera offers free courses, like intro classes. And also I had so many marketing coaches. I don't know how much money I spent on learning about marketing because—

For your studio.

For my studio and for my own sake. And then also—

That's fantastic.

Yeah. And then I learned a lot. And then it really— because learning from scratch. So I went through this. Ups and downs of learning curve, right? If you know what I mean.

Yes.

Yeah, it's completely a new territory for me. And then I thought marketing, I thought of one marketing with this way, but it was completely different. It was really about people. It was all about, you know, having them understand what you do. And wow, boy, I, I, it was an eye-opening thing.

So something else I wanted to say that you're actually, that might be interesting for our listeners is that I think part of the reason that it's especially especially difficult is because our art and elite artists are so perfectionist. And so what we do is we spend like 3 years before performing a program for the first time. And this is the opposite to more business, like more business-oriented fields where you just have to like learn on the go. Like there, I mean, you, you can try to prepare for 3 years. You can try, you can try to do as much as possible, but you're never going to get all the information. You're never going to have all the data. You just have to adjust as you go. And that is the absolute opposite of piano playing, the absolute opposite of classical music. And so that's— it's, you know, it's so— and then sometimes when I think about it, and maybe this again will help some of our listeners, when I think about it, sometimes I learned the most when I performed a piece that was not I'm not that ready, you know, like I gave myself permission to fail. I gave myself permission to fall flat on my face. Just leave the ego out of it. Just, this is a learning experience and nobody cares in a way. And that's kind of the attitude that you have to, that you have to have. That's so difficult. So that's just something I want. I, yeah, I wanted to say when you're talking about the marketing learning curve, right?

But also, yeah, once again, you inspired me to say this, but I feel like we practice so much and perfect our artistry so much that we forget about audience. We are really constantly concerned about our performance, right? You know, make it perfect to play this phrase, this fingers, this tempo. Then we forget our audience. Then, you know, I ended up being just play, bow, and leave and not thinking about them, not engaging them. Them at all. You don't have to necessarily speak to them, but there's got to be some sort of like, um, web and flow in a relationship to your audience, no? Rather than just— right, yeah.

Well, reminds me of a comment, uh, my teacher made when I was, I was running through a master's program, and I remember this was actually a master class, and something that the artist said that was very insightful was that, you know, I understand, you know, you have a more more, sometimes more introverted interpretation, introverted approach. And I, it's some people, they don't believe this about me, but I am very introverted, you know, like I, I mean, I can talk a lot, I can talk to people, but at the end of the day, that's just my personality. And so one thing he said was that you need to remember that you're playing for people. It's not about changing your interpretation, but it's just about playing for them, playing to impact them, not just to, not just to live in your own world. Of ideas. And so it's— yeah, that's something that's very relevant. I mean, if we forget about marketing and business for a second, that's very relevant to us as performers, for sure.

Now we're really getting into this philosophical question. So first one, what is your thought on keeping the classical music industry or classical music itself relevant and thriving in this fast-paced society? And then especially in this post-pandemic era?

I think that house concerts are going to become a lot more relevant. They already kind of are. I think that people are going to be less inclined to sit through the official concert hall experience. I mean, still, if it's like, you know, especially, I mean, we're in New York City, like, there's still Lincoln Center, Carnegie Hall. I mean, they're still bringing in people, but I think a lot of patrons are wanting to host people independently. And they want more intimate experiences. And two things that are going to be really necessary for artists with that, one is the programming. Okay, so 1A is programming. 1B is being able to play with people 10 feet away from you. The whole like state, I mean, the idea of really the venue and the stage. I mean, I'm not saying it's dying. Like I'm not, I'm saying people still go to concerts obviously, but there are so many more house concerts, that are going on than before the pandemic. And so many more opportunities with that. A lot of these people want you, like the artist, to pitch to them, to pitch the program, to pitch, you know, everything. So that's gonna be a lot more relevant and that's gonna push a lot of artists to definitely become more entrepreneurial. It's, you know, it's, it's also, you know, a collaborative because you're collaborating with the presenter more closely. Like, again, a lot of this, I, I call it like infrastructure because it's just so like, it's just the way you think, the way you're taught to think things are supposed to be with like winning a major competition and like just touring. Like you expect, I mean, you expect someone to, you know, when you get to that level, just take care of that for you. But that just doesn't always happen. So, um, but that, but that's a great thing because that house concerts give more, you know, performance opportunities for, mm-hmm. For artists. I, I think, I think cla— I think classical music will never die. Classical music will always be in fashion. It's classic, it's timeless. But I think that artists are going to have to be a lot more flexible in order to reach the kind of audiences they want.

So maybe you already answered this question, but how can we as classical musicians reach out to the 21st century audience in a creative way?

Can I just say something funny that I was thinking about? I think so often, like, artists, they don't want to cut their pieces into like 15, 30-second segments. But something that I was thinking about is that, I mean, how long are the auditions we go through? They're like 10 minutes and we play like 5 pieces. The jury is like, you know, listening, you know, you can tell so much about someone from just 30 seconds. So I really don't understand this like hesitancy to post just excerpts on social media. It's just kind of— I, I really like, I really like what you're doing with in terms of the podcast, in terms of, you know, outside of The Piano Pod, just accessing people. I did an interview series during the pandemic that was a written blog pod with Yukimi Song, just interviewing other pianists who did things outside of the piano. I had a pianist who worked a lot with dancers. I had a pianist who was also a magician.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, it was really awesome. So that was cool. So I think taking ownership of the conversation is what I think, and that is so much outside of the piano and what you're doing and what I'm doing. That's very important.

Right. Well, thank you. What sort of skill set is required as a pianist of the 21st century, and particularly in the, yeah, once again, post-pandemic era?

The ability to spot opportunities. I think that's for anything though. I think I would say more broadly an entrepreneurial skill set is really essential. And in the same way that every day we practice, we have to look at the text like it's new. Every day we have our own endeavors. I mean, there's so much that's just changing in our world and in the market that we have to be able to be flexible.

Right.

Advice for younger musicians from a musical point of view, learn as much as possible because literally everything I learned from before the age of 16 is like, I wish I learned more.

Absolutely.

Because we have so much to literally learn as much as possible. From a more life standpoint, don't be afraid to study something else in college or in conservatory. I think conservatories are doing such an amazing job of adding sort of these peripheral programs. Like, a lot of conservatories now have programs to, like, teach musicians how to record themselves, sort of like audio engineering programs. A lot of music schools now have these entrepreneurship departments, just things that are more— that really place what we're doing in the practice room in the broader context. Don't be afraid to do that because I remember as an undergrad, I was very stressed because I was really the only pianist that was doing a dual degree, and I was very insecure about feeling— I really felt a little bit judged for that. Like, I wasn't as serious about just doing piano, or like, I didn't think that I would quote unquote make it, so I was taking another degree. And looking back, I'm really glad I did that. And so I think just you have to be able— you have to be able to see what other skills you have and how that can sort of broaden your impact as a musician. Does that make sense? Yes.

Yeah, totally.

And I just think that you shouldn't Like, we're so hard on ourselves, especially as pianists. And I think that the amazing thing is that if we look at ourselves as a person, all the combination of skills that help us to play so well, if we nurture some of those other skills, that can actually lead to a more fulfilling career in the long run, both as a pianist and as an entrepreneur. So don't ever feel like you have to be put in a box is kind of what I'm trying to say.

So What's your next step?

I have a lot of music to learn. I have a lot of music to learn this summer. I have a couple, actually. The very next step is I have a couple of video collaborations. I work with a couple wonderful piano centers, one in Manhattan, one in New Jersey. So I'm just producing video content, which obviously helps my portfolio. So I'm always preparing for that, and it's a little bit stressful recording for me. I definitely prefer live, but we're in the digital age, so, so I've been practicing a lot.

Um, wonderful. Miriam, this has been a fun and inspiring conversation, and likewise, thank you for inviting me. Oh, thank you. It was very educational too. So, but before I let you go, we have one more thing to do. It's called The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with rapid-fire questions, and this is a— yes, this is a part of the show where I get questions to each guest. Now here's a little warning: as silly as these questions may sound, your answers may reveal who you truly are. So are you ready?

I think so.

All right, so please answer them with the shortest responses as possible. No, no explanation is needed. Question number 1: What is your comfort food?

Coffee.

All right, well, next one: How do you like your coffee?

Black.

Oh wow. Cats or dogs?

Cats.

What is your word or words to live by?

Make the most of today.

You might—

yeah, today is all you have. Let's go.

Now, what is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Authenticity.

Name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead.

My parents, that's 2. My piano mentor.

Now, name one piece in your current playlist.

Mendelssohn Scherzo.

This is the last question, so fill in the blank. Blank. Music is blank.

Fabulous.

Thank you. So this concludes this episode, the season finale of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Mariam. Thank you, Mariam, for joining my show today and sharing your stories and insights and expertise. You can learn more about Mariam through her website at mariapiano.com and her social media at Mariapiano. And you can also find her music on YouTube The links are listed in the show notes. Thank you to my wonderful audience and fans for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review it on whatever podcasting platform you use. Remember to hit the thumbs up button and subscribe to my YouTube channel if you are watching this episode. Follow The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song on social media to get the latest piano news via Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. I hope to see you for the next Well, next season of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Miriam. Bye everyone, and thank you so much, Miriam.

Thank you for having me. Pleasure to speak.

Thank you.