Season 4 Episode 12: Tim Topham - Founder and Director of Top Music Co and Author of "No...

Hi, I'm John Schmidt from The Piano Guys. Hi, I'm Forrest Kinney. My name is Christopher. I'm Tim Topham.

My name is Melanie Bowes. Hi, this is Andrea Voll. I'm Jennifer Fox.

I'm Glory St. Germain.

My name is Christiana Lopriori. I'm Leila Vith. I'm Lindell Kennedy. Hi, this is Sarah Campbell.

I, Fraser Mize, will be your host.

Technique foundations. An introduction to SEO. How you can set up your Greek lessons.

And one of those tools is notation software. I'd like to share with you a lot about chords.

We want to get teachers off on the right foot.

Playing by ear and improvising. Growing a group teaching studio. Pop music. The 12-bar blues. How to build a website from scratch.

We didn't want to follow just one particular technique, ideology, or methodology, or philosophy.

Just get to know them before you do anything to do with music. I think it's one One of the most important things, it's fundamental, and it's about building rapport and a relationship with your students. How to make the most popular chords, how to style them in a variety of ways, how to add color tones to them, how to use them to reharmonize melodies in fresh ways. You're going to have the clear understanding and the resources you need to develop your own aural skills and help your students to do the same.

We're going to look at the different kind of business aspects of setting up group lessons and how they differ to your private lessons.

I use it for all my students, classical, contemporary, any student at all, Circle of Fifths is absolute gold.

Welcome back to another episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Here, tradition meets innovation. We bridge the timeless beauty of the piano with the dynamic pulse of today's world. I am your host Yukimi Song. So for this episode, I invited Tim Topham, founder/director of Top Music Co. Music educator and author of a recently published book titled "No Book Beginners: Step-by-Step Framework for Creative Piano Teaching Right from Lesson 1," a leading text demonstrating the many benefits of delaying reading in beginner piano teaching. Tim has been helping to reshape and recharge the traditional landscape of instrumental music education since 2010. Tim's vision of a more creative, modern, and integrated approach to teaching has seen him speak on stages from US to UK and Australia. Tim is the founder of Top Music Co. and when he is not in the studio, he enjoys cycling, coffee, and traveling with his family. Before getting started with this episode, I want to welcome all our first-timers to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. I'm a classical pianist and educator from New York City. Whether diving deep into a piano career, working professionally in the classical music scene, or simply having a passion for piano tunes, this podcast is your backstage pass to the The Fascinating Piano World. I also want to welcome back and thank you to amazing TPP fans and faithful listeners for tuning in today. Please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform because every rating review will help people find the show. I am thrilled to welcome Mr. Tim Topeng to start our conversation, so stick with us for a reflecting discussion on keeping music education relevant in today's changing world. Please enjoy the show. You are listening to The Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century. Welcome, Tim, to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song.

Thanks, Yukimi Song, for having me. It's great to be here. I've been a listener of your show, and the thing I really love as another podcaster is that you have all these guests who I've never heard of. So I'm learning so much about, from new people, which is great.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I am learning so much from, by doing this. And I also listen to your podcast. It's great. We're going to talk more about your podcast as well. Anyway, thanks for really being here and participating in the conversation today. It means so much. And you're right now in Melbourne, Australia, correct?

That's right. Yep. Nice warm summer.

Oh, how nice. I'm jealous. Today is a really bitter cold winter here in New York City. So I'm very, very envious of that. Anyways, congratulations. On your new book. You sent me actually the copy of it, but I actually bought it because I'm enjoying reading it. So I was like, instead of reading on PDF format, I really wanted to get the copy. So I downloaded on my phone and I have it in the Kindle, you know, honestly still need to finish reading it, but it's the sort of book where I feel like you can just go back and forth, you know what I mean? Like you, and use it as a resource instead of just reading it through once. So, and it covers everything from the inspiration behind from writing this book to the current state of music education, focusing on, you know, obviously piano and musical instrument instructions and lessons. And, and also you're providing a historical background to explain how we got where we are in our industry, and it's very interesting. I love that sort of thing. And then also a practical framework for teaching beginners without relying on typical method books. So I kind of briefly explained what that book is all about, but in your words, in a nutshell, tell us what this No Book Beginners book is all about.

Sure. Well, I'll answer it perhaps slightly unusually in saying to your audience, when you had, and to you, Yukimi, now, when you had your first piano lesson, if you think right back, if you can remember, Did your piano teacher open a method book and point to middle C and show you where to put your thumb on middle C? And they were probably held for 2 counts each and you would be playing middle C. 1, 2, 1, 2. If you're lucky, you might use your left hand. 1, 2. And that was kind of lesson 1. Was that lesson 1 for you?

Oh, yes. So I wanted to get out of it. And I did, actually. I moved to a grip lesson. And that was actually— they didn't teach me how to read notes. So that was really fun. But the first lesson was really the traditional reading-based.

Well, if I asked that question to— I was in fact speaking at a conference yesterday, it was about 35 teachers and it's about 90% of their hands went up to say, yes, that is how I was taught. And so my question in answer to your question is, well, keep your hand up if you think that's the most imaginative, creative, musical, fun, exciting, enjoyable way that you could possibly start a music lesson with a student today? And of course, all the hands go down. I mean, no one in their right mind would think that's a good way to engage students and excite them in this journey they're starting when they are the most enthusiastic they'll ever be in that first lesson. So the book answers the question, well, if we all agree with that, and most people do, what do I do instead? And so I know that most teachers If they've had some formal training, it'll be fairly traditional, fairly classical. And they will generally teach to some extent how they were taught, which will tend to be quite traditional as well. And so while teachers might listen to what I've just said and go, yeah, that I could kind of get on board with that. It's probably makes sense. I could probably do something different. The question is, what do I do? And so that's really the fundamental part of this book. It's to say, well, we're all on the same page together. My goal for the book is I want more students in the world continuing their piano instruction. I want more teachers enjoying the process of teaching so they do more of it and they have fun with it. And I want these students to stick around because they've had this incredible experience at the start. So here is your framework, here are your lesson plans. Go for it. Have fun with it. You can do it, by the way. Anyone can do it regardless of how little creativity you think you have inside you. You can do it. So, that's what the book's all about.

So, the title is No Book Beginners, literally, like you're going to start without a book?

Correct. Yeah. Well, the only book you're going to start with is my book, which you're all going to have on the side. You're going to be preparing with it. But yes, the goal is to not have a method book for anything up to 10 weeks if you want to, or more or fewer. There are many teachers who've used this approach and maybe just use it for 3 weeks to kick off the right lessons with students, and then they'll start adding their method alongside. So, it's really, really flexible. I don't call it a method. I call it a framework for that fact. The fact is you as a teacher are in charge of your lessons and you can choose to use this how you want, for however many students you want, for how long you want, alongside the method you want, before the method you want. It's really up to you. But I hope, I guess, the first half of the book, which really explains the reasoning behind it, helps teachers understand the power that they could have by implementing this.

I actually really enjoy reading that first part of the book, like the reason behind it. And I couldn't agree more in many, many aspects because I've been teaching too. And also I feel like reading notes comes to me much later. I'm saying this, I'm a classical pianist. Okay, so I don't want to get kicked out from the industry that I'm familiar with and I am, you know, I am in. But the thing is that for a beginner, especially for those who are just really starting out and getting to know this black and white instrument, and then thinking, you know, as a teacher to start from the notation, it just sounds really horrible. And then that's not how you learn the language anyway. And the music, we usually associate music as one of the languages.

And so I'd be really shocked to hear you say, I don't want people in the classical area to sort of be against this or my approach if I was to use it. Because in actual fact, what I want to make clear is that this approach will help students build their musical skills that will help them in whatever way they take their music, whether that's a fairly classical route, whether it's more of a pop route or composing or whatever it is. But we don't know, we're not going to know for a few years if we take on a 7-year-old where they might end up, what their passion actually is. This just lays the groundwork for the musical skills and fun and enjoyment, but primarily the musical skills which method books so often leave out, which are things like the singing, chanting, clapbacks, playbacks, rhythm tapping, singing tonic and dominant, feeling home keys, understanding the difference between 3/4, 4/4 meter, uh, and, and the list goes on. These are just critical musical skills that students should have, but unfortunately, when we just go straight to Middle C and a book, we miss out on that opportunity. So this will help classical students in the future, and it has done, and there's no question about it.

Absolutely. You're right. So why did you write this book? It seems like you've developed this sort of like framework and then you have a company which we're going to talk about later, and you have a course that you offer, but you decided to write a book which was written last year. So, yes.

The reason is I'm passionate about it. I, it, it really saddens me to hear of students quitting too soon for no other reason than the way they were taught or a lack of connection with their teacher or teachers just not understanding some of the things that they can do without much change to, to, to really appeal to 2024, 2023, you know, modern students and their learning and their need for a slightly different approach. So, yeah, I really wanted to, I mean, I've been writing the blog. I started blogging in 2010 and podcasting in 2015. So I've been doing this all for a while. And out of that came this concept. I tested it. The first time I tested it and I share the story in the book was 2015. And it's been tested by Well over 1,000 teachers now all around the world who've used this, and there's a lot of testimonials you'll read in the book about the ways that they've seen this impact their teaching. So the long story short is really, I just wanted to get it into the hands of more teachers. I want more teachers to know that there's an alternative here.

You said something about this modern teaching, modern, let's say, market or students. The different, I'd say, ways of learning, or I don't know, what do you see in them? What's so different about this modern teaching or modern students?

Well, I mean, there's so much that's changed in 10, 15 years. Family dynamics have shifted, have changed. Students' leisure time has changed. Technology has impacted everything. And it's changed things like students' ability to focus and what students expect of their learning. And this goes to classrooms as well. Classrooms are having to shift their approach away from the teacher just dictating everything and students writing it down. That doesn't happen. That happened for our parents' generation. It doesn't happen anymore. Well, if it does, it's not working and it's starting to shift more to inquiry-based learning. And, and so one of The key factors we believe at Top Music is one of our pillars is, and I'd encourage all teachers to consider this, is a student for having a student-first approach, giving students autonomy and agency in their learning. Now, that's going to vary. If they're a 6-year-old, the teacher's going to have most of the autonomy, going to be directing most of what's going on. If they're a 16-year-old, then that is flipped around right around the other way because a 16-year-old comes to lessons for a very particular purpose and you need to know that purpose and help them with it. Or they're going to quit very, very quickly. So, we believe really strongly in this student-centred or student-first approach. And that's just one sort of element of what I believe has changed more recently. Another one is just students crave interactivity. So, the integration of technology into lessons, even if that's just recording, you recording them and playing it back in slow motion and watching movements and things like that. I mean, there's very easy ways to integrate technology. Again, it's not a whole rebirth of your teaching. Just adding things in can be very powerful. And there's a lot about collaboration that students really value these days. There will always be, Yukimi, the 1% of students who will sit alone at a piano for 2 hours a day and practice and move up through the grades if you're in a grading system or work towards the advanced literature. But My experience is that the 99%, they won't respond in the same way to that. And so we have to look, okay, how can we get collaboration happening? Where's the social element, particularly for piano students? Oh my goodness, piano students are so alone and solo. Let's work ways to get them together, to play together, to play at least with a backing track or with you in the studio at a second piano or duetting or anything. That means that they're playing in a collaborative sense. Because of course that gives them a much stronger sense of rhythm. I mean, not only is it social and that's positive, but it helps their musicality. They're listening better, they're following, they're getting balance. I mean, so many things come from it. So I think, I mean, there's just two examples or three of some of the changes that I feel we need to consider in our studios.

When I was a child, compared to that time and then now, as a music educator, our responsibilities have completely shifted. You know, my teachers probably, uh, I mean, they were all traditional way of teaching. And, um, you know, if it's the piano lesson, it was just everything was focused on piano playing, from piano technique to notation to everything. And then obviously I you know, I'm one of those people that who wanted to study piano, so it got more serious. And so, but then these days, you know, I'm teaching serious students. Some perform at Carnegie Hall several times a year. But then, yeah, as opposed to, I have other students who, one, I'm proud to say she wrote a song when, during COVID shutdown, and then collaborated with her friend. So she produced a song and then available on Spotify.

Oh, that's amazing.

I know, but you know, it's, it's, it's interesting. So which means I feel like I am required to know a whole lot, lot more than my traditional way of teaching, or, you know, the, the traditional way of learning, uh, or, or the traditional way that I was taught. Right.

And then it was kind of easy. Let's be honest, it was kind of easy teaching back then, right?

Yeah.

If you knew the repertoire and could play it and could teach it, everyone came in, expected you to help them with the notes, correct their mistakes, and go home and practice and repeat. Yeah, great. And maybe again, that worked for some students, but it's working for fewer and fewer students with all the work and the conversations I have around the world. But you know what though? I would have found— sorry to interrupt you. I would have found that so boring. So boring. Oh my goodness. Same method, same pieces. I can picture that they're going to forget that C# in that scale and they're going to miss the E-flat in this Bergmüller piece. I don't want to even teach like that. So dull.

That's the missing part in our industry. And then you decided to write a book?

Well, yeah. I mean, it's obviously a bigger picture. Because we can improve teaching at all levels of ability and have an impact by taking this student-first approach. But I really wanted to write a book that focused on those first lessons because they are just so critical. And because most students will start between the ages of 6 to 10, I wanted a framework which would really suit that age category. And so, yeah, I really wanted to go back to the beginning and say, okay, how do we get this right? And you'll, you may have read in the book as well, in the first part, I also say really clearly what the goal of this is. What are the skills that we want students to have at the end of their first 10 weeks with us? And that's probably something that a lot of teachers don't think about. And so, I challenge them in the book to think about it. There's a space in the book to write down before you read my ones. What do you want your students to do, be able to do, and what do you want their mindset to be at the end of their first 10 lessons? Write them down. And listeners could pause this and do that right now. You know, what would you write down? And then come and have a look at the book and see what my ones are, which is where this framework takes students. Because I just— yeah, it's just so critical to get that right at the beginning.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, What does this book ultimately provide?

Yeah, so teachers getting the book, the first half of the book is the background on why, how this came about and why you should consider whether this might be something that suits you and your teaching. So really the goal was to make the case for it and also to explain to some extent how we got to where we are right now. And then the second part is the TRU framework, which is to say, I provide you in the book the first 5 weeks of this framework, dot by dot, step by step. Here's what to say, here's what to do. Everything you need from that first lesson up to the 5th lesson is in the book given to you. And I give an overview of lessons 6 to 10, and we have a companion website where there's more information. So there's videos of me actually teaching all of these steps. There are backing tracks and accompaniment parts that teachers can play and practice instruction. So what does the student actually do week to week at home? So all of this is provided. That's what the framework gives you. And I call it that framework again because you can choose how long you want to try this out for. We have a lot of teachers who might just try it out with one student, you know, for 3 and commit, okay, I'm going to do 3 weeks to start or 5 weeks just with one student and I'm going to try it out and see how it goes. And then very quickly, most of them will start integrating this and using it for the rest of their students as well.

In your book, you mentioned your discovery of late Dr. Edwin Gordon's written presentation because he, I think he wasn't able to attend the presentation at the time or something. And then about, of course, about music learning theory, which is his, uh, you know, theory. And then I got to learn about MLT through podcasting. And then, uh, one of the MLT specialists, Krista Yadrow, I got to interview. And then that's when— yeah, yeah, that's when I actually learned about MLT. Before then, I never knew of this theory before. So, and you mentioned in the book, it says, "It affirmed everything I knew about the music teaching landscape." What does that mean?

That's a great question. I think listening to this presentation, and we can go into what that means if you'd like, or like what the content of MLT is, but listening to it, aligned with what I subconsciously knew. I knew the way I was teaching these first lessons and reading in particular, I knew there was something that we could do better. I just had a feeling. It's such a struggle. Music reading is a really complex brain activity, really complex. One hand alone, but add two hands and pedals and, oh my goodness, I don't know how any of us have ever learned it. I mean, it's so difficult. But I just, I felt when I was teaching students, it just seemed like drudgery and hard work. And I'm like, why is this so difficult? And so that's what I meant by kind of affirmed. It affirmed in me that there was potentially something wrong with what we're doing or something that could be improved about how most of us were teaching reading. And so when I heard about this language model of learning or sound before symbol, as some people call it, I'm like, ah, that makes sense. That makes so much sense. And that's when I started to go, all right, I think I can restructure what I'm doing with one of my students. And I think I talk in the book about Josh. I actually found a picture of Josh. He was the first, the guinea pig student, which, and yeah, I talk in the book about the story of how I basically compiled everything I had learned over the preceding 5 years of blogging and interviewing and masterclasses and all of that stuff. I went on a true deep dive. I got so obsessed by piano teaching. I went to every single thing that I could possibly go to. I took notes, I read books, I learned about Suzuki and Orff and Delcroze and Alexander Technique and Kadaï. All of these I had experience. I went to courses. And then music learning theory came along. I'm like, aha, I think this is going to pull it all together. And that's kind of what it did.

But what can you like specifically what attracted you to me? Let's say I compare MLT like learning a language. Let's say, you know, honestly, obviously English is my second language and I didn't learn to speak till I came here as a college student and I was already 20. Yeah, I was already 20 years old. And, you know, I, aced everything in English classes in Japan. I'm originally from Japan. I'm Korean. But then, you know, I got all A's and— but, you know, I couldn't speak a word of English. What a shame. I was able to sort of read, you know, I was able to sort of spell things and I got A's and I was prepping to go to really good school to major in English language. But, you know, I struggled to speak, and I really wanted to say one sentence perfectly to express my feelings, but that didn't come till I came and jumped right into college classes as a college student. So then when I really learned about MLT, I was like, aha. So like, just, you know, it made sense about music learning too. It's really not about learning to read the notes because these black dots just don't say anything much because, you know, it all really depends, depending on the context, right? If it's a treble clef, obviously this line, this dot changes that, you know, and if it's the bass clef, obviously same note on the same line changes. So, right.

It's so abstract. Yeah. I can imagine that the immerse— the, you went, once you were immersed, in the language, that's when it started to click and when you're starting to speak it. So, and for those listening and perhaps have heard it on your previous episode with Christian, the simple premise is that we should match the way we teach reading to the way language is acquired by a child, which is to say that the first thing they do is speak and make sounds and babble and what we'd call improvise on the piano or the instrument. And then they'll start to, well, hopefully get them listening. So, audiation. So being able to hear music inside their head before it's, or without it being sounded out loud, but just being able to hear and understand before they get to reading. And you know, where do method books start? They start that process at step kind of 4, reading. The only other step after that's writing, but all of that beautiful immersion has been missed. And that's what the No Book Beginner's Approach is based around. So I took these concepts and went, okay, well, how do we get to this desired goal in 10 weeks' time? All right, let's start. Let's look at these activities. Okay, so we can do some pitch matching where we play on the piano and they have to hum it, or they hum it and they have to find it on the piano. Simple activity, something that's really missed. Lots of singing. Singing is so, so important. For musicality generally, regardless of your instrument. And most piano students are not encouraged to sing. In fact, they're almost discouraged from singing. And it's such a skill. It's such a helpful skill for phrasing down the track, for being able to play by ear, being able to sing what you hear before you can play, all of those things. So I am so passionate that we normalize singing from the start. First lesson, let's sing as a natural part of music making. And of course, Suzuki does this and Orff does it. Kadaia does it. There's chanting, there's tapping, there's singing all the time. Body movement. So feeling the music in your whole body and in your voice, even just speaking rhythms, which is an Orff technique. All of these things are just fundamental and so, so helpful for the future development of the musician. And that's why I brought it into these first few lessons.

Now, what do you think about music learning theory? Like, so I got to listen to several, you know, podcasts about MLT and I read some books about MLT. So, and then you talk about in your book, one author, Paul G. Woodford, Gordon's— he says Gordon's system is too prescriptive and proscriptive.

So yeah, it was just interesting as I was doing my research for the book, I wanted to try and give both sides of the story. And one, I like the concept behind music learning theory, but the implementation of it was much harder to get my head around. So I found very quickly Music Moves for Piano, which is the method created by Marilyn Lowe for— based on music learning theory. And I tried desperately to use this, but it was a step too far. It was too hard. It was too different to how I'd been teaching for me to understand. I tried so hard. Oh my goodness. I interviewed her, other people. I practiced. I got all the books and the the DVDs and the backing tracks, all that stuff. It was just a bit too hard. And then as I was researching, I did find that quote from Paul Woodford that it's almost too prescriptive. It's too proscriptive, which is why I've taken the concept, let's use the language acquisition model to teach reading rather than the— because he outlines in as much depth as you want to go to the to the nth degree about how you should go about teaching the language acquisition model down to tonal centres, the syllables you use, all of this. And if you're happy with that and you can do it, fantastic. I'm not disparaging at all. It's great if you can do it. It just didn't work for me. And I knew that if it didn't work for me, it probably would be a step too far for a lot of other teachers as well, which is why I thought I'm going to use the concepts and I'm going to put all of those other approaches, the Suzuki's and Kodai's and things, in a melting pot. And I'm going to come up with something that I think, having worked with teachers for a long time, that they can understand and feel confident using, because there's no point having a theory if the practice of it is too hard to understand.

Yeah, I don't oppose MLT at all. I love the concept of it. But do I want to go back from scratch and learn to teach?

Hmm.

You know, I am getting older.

Big ask.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I want to do that. So that's the struggle for one thing I had. And then to me, it was very specific, as you said, the method. So I got lost in the middle. So I really, I felt like I, I may have to go back to college and get a degree in MLT or something. Otherwise, I don't think I can catch up. And I listened to some of the podcasts and they were saying, do they, do they, do they?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you've hit the nail on the head. I was hearing that from other teachers as well. Lots of other teachers who were listening to my podcast about, because I got all excited. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to interview everyone about MLT and see what I can learn, which is probably what you enjoy doing as well about podcasting. And I just kept hearing from teachers, it's just, there's something about it. I, like you've said, it's a step too far. It's a bit too hard. I don't quite get it. And Krista's, you know, been creating courses about it, which is great. So helpful. So yeah, I agree. I think the concepts are great. And if it resonates with you and it feels authentic, which is super critical for any teaching approach you use, Does it feel authentic? Because students will know instantly if it's inauthentic. If it's authentic for you and you understand it and you like it and you're getting good results, then fantastic, go for it.

As much as I have advanced students who perform Carnegie, but then I have little kiddos too, like 6-year-old, so cute. And then it's like, you know, brand new student. It's just starting from scratch. So it's really my responsibility to responsibility to expose them to good music, musical habit, to everything. I also don't like so much starting from reading notes, you know, opening the first page. Of course, I cover the basics— how to sit, you know, how to form a good way to play the piano, and so forth. But then, so, but where do I start? So that's the question. So although, you know, I can teach them playing by ear, I can use the lead sheet eventually and playing, and I teach them chords, but they're not there yet.

And that's exactly why I've put this together. And I also hear from teachers that there is an overwhelm of information coming at them about all the different things that they can do. And in some ways that's great because 20 years ago there wasn't much about creativity in music education. Now there's almost too much. And in fact, one of the things that teachers have loved best about the book are the self-assessments. I'm not sure if you tried one of these out. Basically, you get to rank yourself. I give you about 20 check-in statements in 3 different assessments, and you rank yourself, yes, this applies to me, or no, this doesn't describe me. I saw what you did. And one of them's about How student-centred is your teaching right now? Another one is just how creative are your beginner lessons? And you add up your total and I put you into one of 3 buckets and then explain what I think is happening and what you should do. And one of them for that first, you know, how creative are your lessons or what are your beginner lessons like? One of the last ones is if you're in the last bucket, I tell you to watch out for shiny objects because It's really easy. You're quite creative, probably, if you've ended up with this score. But the challenge is actually that you can be so enthusiastic and you want to learn and try new things that you try too much and you completely overwhelm your student. And as I describe in the book, that this actually happened to me. I almost lost an amazing student because I was just trying to do too much. So, I guess there's that balance that we try and find as teachers. Between keeping current and following the traditions at work without overwhelming students. But it's really hard to do that without a structure. And again, that's what this, the book tries to do. Each lesson builds upon the learning of the one before. We revisit things from the week before. So, I hope that it helps teachers not have to worry so much like you're doing, you know, what do I actually, like, I know I should do this and that and How do I structure it? Don't worry about it. I've done it for you.

Oh, that's great. You know, also I don't necessarily want to abandon the things that I already have. Does that make sense? Like as a teacher, I've been teaching over 20, 25 years. Oh my gosh. Then it's like, do I have to break all these things that I've developed? And then, you know, that's, that's the impression I got from MLT. That's why I was like a little bit depressed. It's like, do I have— I felt like all these years of blood and sweat. And I thought I did my research, I did my work, and then do I have to abandon everything and start from scratch? That is quite overwhelming and devastating. I did what I know the best. Yeah.

And it's unnecessary, I really think. There's also— I interviewed the founder of Simply Music, which you may have heard of. Some time ago now, and that's another— that is a method, and it's a very structured method, and it's a licensed method. So it's really, if you choose to go down this route, then you are not to teach any other way. And so you learn a new approach, and that, again, that works for some teachers. That's fine. I didn't want to produce something like that though, just as I didn't want to produce something that meant you had to revolutionise your teaching. So any of the activities in there teachers wouldn't be like, well, I don't— what is that? Like, what is this? These syllables? Or what is audiation? Or whatever it is. It's all really doable stuff that any teacher can do without, again, revolutionising or going back to basics.

I really want to talk about you, your background and everything. But before that, do you have any other things that you want to talk about from your book?

Well, I'll mention just two concerns I get from teachers, which I do speak to in the book. One is teachers that say, I can't do this, I'm not creative. And it's so sad to hear that. And there's a lot of teachers, maybe they don't say it, but perhaps some of you listening are thinking, I'm really, I'm just not creative. I was traditionally trained. I can teach beautifully how to phrase and pedal and play Bach and Beethoven, but I'm not creative. So I— there's no point trying. And I just want to speak to you guys and say, well, I believe that's rubbish. Load of rubbish. You and everybody else out there can be creative, are creative. Uh, it's just a bit latent or dormant. You would have been as a child incredibly curious, full of imagination and creativity. And unfortunately, just as adults, particularly in music, uh, we lose it over time. And I want to bring that back to you and prove to you and show you how you are creative. You are innately creative and can have such a large amount of fun doing this, having— doing these creative activities with students. And if you're not convinced, grab the book because there are examples after examples of teachers who thought they weren't creative, who have used this approach and then gone on to make it even more creative. So, they've taken an animal improv story or our Around the World improv activity, which is a multi-week program where they get a motif from different parts of the world and they create stories around it. And I've had teachers then go steps further to create videos around it or headdresses and outfits to go when they perform these things. I mean, it's a great— the book and the framework is a great spark for most teachers' creativity. I'll challenge you and say, I reckon you would be hard-pressed not to go, hmm, what if we did this? And go off on a little tangent, and that's great. The second concern is what are parents going to think? Because so many parents have been brought up with this method book approach. So what am I going to say to them when they're not using a method book? How do I reach them? And so there's just one quote I'll read, a short quote in the book. About this when Elisa Milne, she's an Australian pedagogue, talks about this, you know, just being modern and progressive and creative and imaginative in your teaching. And she says, if parents find this strange, tell them that it's much more important that you explore rhythm, pulse, creativity, and improvisation before they start reading. I've never had a parent anything but thrilled to see their child exploring lots of sounds on the piano, using all the keys and pedals, and having a ball. And in fact, there's another teacher I quote in here who says that the parents of the child she was teaching this to couldn't get the child off the piano because they were having so much fun. I mean, isn't that exactly what we want?

Wow. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, it seems like you're really thoroughly researched and studied and you invested your time and even money to books and courses. And so I would like to know your background. So how did you get to where you are?

Well, it's a very roundabout story. I had a very not normal route through music education. And in fact, any of your listeners who are members of the MTNA in America, I was interviewed and featured in there about the upcoming conference coming up in March. And the title of it was something like Sliding in Through the Side Door, How Tim Topham Came to Be Doing What He's Doing or something like that. And it's by my great friend Lila Visse, who's an amazing teacher in Colorado. And anyway, long story short, yeah, it was a very unusual sort of path. I studied music. I learned, started learning piano at age 8. With an amazing teacher called Miss Mack, who I speak about in a lot of my videos. She was an incredible influence on me, but drifted away very quickly from the traditional music. I did sort of my, a couple of grades up to grade 6, and then I went into jazz. And then I also did some study at school before I finished school. And then I went in a completely different direction. I wanted to be a classroom teacher, but I wanted to teach what we call over here outdoor education. So, it's taking students away out of doors, outward bound, maybe more relevant term, where you're abseiling and climbing and canoeing and cooking and all those kinds of things intense. And I just, I loved that. And that was what I did for the next 6 years or so of my life.

That is super Australia, it sounds like. That is awesome.

It's part of the curriculum over here. It's a choice. Yeah. And all schools run camps and I just thought it was a cool way to live my early 20s. Like, who wouldn't want to do that?

I want to do it. Yeah.

So I did that for many years. All through that, I was always still playing piano, but I never taught it. But I would accompany musicals. I would conduct a few musicals. I would accompany singers who were friends. So I always kept in with the music side of things. Anyway, long story short, I kind of had enough of all of that outdoor ed after, I don't know, 6 or 7 years of it. I was getting old. And so I thought, right, I'm going to be a music producer, which meant for me becoming a DJ, effectively making music that could be played in nightclubs. And I gave myself a year. Was it a year or 3 years? I can't remember now. But look, I couldn't make money from it. And so I started teaching I thought, well, why don't I start teaching? And the teaching, I just became incredibly passionate about. I just loved it. It was heaps of fun. And then so I reconnected with Miss Mac, who had long retired, but who was only too happy to help me. And she mentored me for a year or two, taught me everything she knew, gave me all her resources and gave me the confidence to go, alright, I haven't been formally taught. Piano pedagogy. I've been taught how to teach in a classroom setting. I have a teaching degree, but not pedagogy. But I'm going to go out there and I'm going to share what I know and what I've learned with the world, and I'm going to do things differently. And that was how the blog began. And I just kept— I just deep-dived. I just kept learning and learning and learning and sharing. Importantly, I think that's— I mean, there's lots of people in the world who go on deep dives into topics, but I started sharing it on YouTube and on the blog. Every book I read, I'd review it. Every masterclass I went to, I'd talk about it. And slowly that got traction from people. And that's how Top Music came to be.

Great. So we'll talk about Top Music Co. So what is it? Who is this for?

So Top Music Co. is for music teachers. Predominantly piano and guitar teachers, but I hope we do serve teachers and will serve in the future teachers of all instruments. It's a place to go for community and content learning and a place to, I guess, to have as a hub or a home. That's what I want it to be. Even for teachers, we have a membership site as well, a paid membership. The core of our organisation. But for those who aren't in that, we have our YouTube channel, lots on social media and our blog, which still gets many, many views and lots of downloads. The amount of free things I've given away. I mean, we have, I don't know, well over 100 free downloads, you know, how to teach modes, how to teach the blues, all of these things all over our website that people can find through Google and about 600 or 700 blog articles. I did 5, 7 years of podcasting. There's almost 400 episodes of podcasts. So I've just wanted to, I just wanted to give people, just give, give, give, give content because when I started teaching in school, so soon after reconnecting with Ms. Mack, I started teaching in schools. So it's not really done in America so much, but students will come out of a lesson, like their maths class, and have a one-on-one piano lesson for 30 minutes and then go back to class. And that happens in Australia. That's the standard way. And England for people to be taught. So I started teaching in a school in that way, and I would just get teachers sort of knocking on my door going, what are you— that is so cool. What is that? You got to show me what you're doing. And that's when I really started going, okay, maybe there's something in this that teachers aren't doing. And my studio, the numbers at the school built, I had to hire another teacher. It just sort of confirmed with me that there's a lot of need for information. There's teachers out there who want to get better and they want to do things differently, but it's really isolated, as we all know. So, hence wanting to bring everybody together in a community.

Wow. I'm impressed, really. And what a resourceful person you are. With all— I think it comes down to your curiosity, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm just as curious about business and marketing and how do I attract teachers? How do I get in front of them? How do I help them? As for helping my students and developing these resources for teaching. So, yeah, I am a very curious person. I am quite entrepreneurial. I like asking questions, solving problems. Connecting, networking, you know, all of that stuff. So yes, that's always been part of my DNA, I think.

Oh, wonderful. Now, so then your company offers a membership site and also a course as well?

Uh, yeah, over 50 courses actually. So it all, it all started with one course. So, so I mentioned earlier I was building up, uh, content. I was just sharing content and I was collecting people's email addresses and I eventually emailed all these people and I think there's maybe 1,000, between 1,000 and 2,000 people on the list at that stage. And I said, you're following what I do, what would you like me to create? What is your biggest problem? And the biggest number one pain point was how to teach a student a pop song because no one teaches that in pedagogy school, if anyone even goes to pedagogy school, like no one knows how to do that. And there are some tricks to it because teaching it via notation is more often than not impossible, but also frustrating, but also not very musical. There's so much more you can learn by teaching it through the chords. So I put together a course at the end of 2014 on that to answer that question because I knew it was a burning issue. And that led to the start of the membership because I started after I released that course and it did very well. Started getting lots of questions from teachers going, oh, you know, how do I do this? Or what did you mean by that? I'm like, I can't keep up with all these one-on-one emails. So how about I build a community and everyone post your things to the group so that I can share with everybody. And then that developed into, well, I should probably, what course should we do next? And that has just built over time. And now there's courses from lots of other specialists, not just me.

Wow. That's incredible. I tried, but building a course is Maybe it's not my thing. It's hard.

Not for the faint of heart.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. It's hard. Anyway, through your community, what's the common struggle you see from your members?

That's a good question. So people come in, one of the challenges we have in serving our members is that they all come in with different challenges and different goals and different approaches and different everything. So to pull on a couple of common threads, I would say isolation is a big one. So a lot of our teachers come for the community aspect, just having a place that's a hub and a home where they can ask questions without fear of reprimand, which does happen in Facebook groups, sadly. Get support, be looked after, and also in that space, be able to find ideas, fresh ideas. So, I think a lot of teachers just, they know perhaps, and I've heard from them in testimonials before, they've said, look, I was just close to quitting. I was just, I'm just bored. I'm burnt out and I was bored. And we came in and my eyes were opened and I'm like, oh my goodness, I could do that. Oh, okay. I'm going to go and try that. I didn't know that was allowed, you know, giving them almost confidence. Yeah, definitely confidence that they not only can do something fresh and new, but that it's okay to do that. You know, you're not breaking any rules, you're not upsetting anybody, it's okay. And people do say, oh, I've, you know, I've found my group. I finally feel like I've found my group because you're making me feel like it's okay that I do things a little bit differently to the traditions and the norms. So that, yeah, it is hard to find like one or two really strong threads that go through everybody because so many people come in at different stages in their career. Some want to build a big studio and hire 10 teachers and have 1,500 students. Others want 5 students and they're really happy doing that as just a hobby. So, yeah, we try and cater for everybody.

Right. What are the trends you see or hope to see in piano teaching?

Trends. Okay, so I think we are seeing a trend that creativity, that adding creative aspects to lessons. And that could be anything from doing some improvising to helping students write a song, to taking out the left hand of a piece and playing chords instead, to any of those aspects. I call all of that being creative. We have seen since I first spoke at a conference, which was 2015, which is when I heard the MLT speech, we've seen a huge shift towards people and organizations embracing creativity and the explosion in podcasts and blogs and people creating resources around this. So that is a trend that I'm super delighted that is happening because I really do believe that only good will come from being more flexible and adding more creativity into music lessons. So that's been a great trend. There's definitely a trend towards group teaching. I don't know if you've seen that as well or people that you— Yeah, people that you've interviewed there, you know, there's now quite a few different conferences based online and in person based on their own group teaching. And there's a lot of teachers who I think are looking at this for two reasons. One is because I think we mentioned that before, that social aspect of student learning is so important and group teaching is a great way to do that. Secondly, income. So when I created Top Music Pro, I didn't want it to just be a pedagogy resource. It is pedagogy and business. And we have always included resources on both those topics because ultimately, if you're not running a sustainable business, you're not going to do this for very long and you'll burn out and you will quit. And then we've lost all of that great goodwill with all your students. So we want to support teachers to run a business. Better to have enough students. And group teaching is an option for that. And even if it's just 2 people with a 15-minute crossover having 45-minute lessons with 15 minutes shared, there's so many different ways that you can structure group lessons. So, if you're kind of new to this approach, when I say group teaching, don't necessarily picture a room with 8 students all at keyboards. It can be 3 students with different variations of overlapping. It could be buddies, so 2 people at once. There's— or it could be a classroom of 8 people, and there's plenty of people in Australia who— and I know Texas is really strong on this as well— who do that. So that's definitely a trend that I'm seeing at the moment. And I think for teachers who are keen on it and happy to do it and it works for them, I think that's fantastic. And it definitely does have an impact, a positive impact on income if if you'd like to go down that route. So there's two trends anyway.

Wow. Now I'm sold. So help me sign up for whatever you offer. So what's the— where's a great way to start? A person like me who's been teaching for 20, 25 years or so, and then, you know, maybe want to belong to the community or maybe want to follow Some of the blog posts you do. What's the best one?

Yeah, well, we're kind of on just about any platform that you might want to hang out on. So if you're a Facebook kind of person, then search for Top Music Co, find our group. We've got a group called Teachers of Beginner and Intermediate Students or something. We do link that from our website if I got that wrong. So if you'd like that, yes, come and do that. If you want to just check out the blog. Go to topmusic.co. At the top, there's a number of menus and you can choose to learn and have a look through our blog articles, or you can search for something. Or if you have a particular question or concern or something, then just Google that question with Top Music in the search and you'll find whatever we might have on it. So maybe you're like, how do I teach a pop song? Or how do I get group teaching started? Or how do I best teach beginners? Whatever it is. And we'll, it'll, it'll lead you to any number of downloads. And yeah, jump on our email list. If you download something and put your email in, you'll be on our email list. And we keep up to date with our people every week with sort of what's new, what's happening, any sort of trends, as you say. And upcoming webinars that we've got. So we try and do training, free training webinars every month or so. We're releasing a course this month in February all about teaching neurodivergent students. So we've had a course already on this for some time, but we've got a completely updated and, and rebuilt course. It's amazing, it's so epic. And we're doing a webinar on that so teachers can ask questions and we can answer their questions. So Uh, yeah, that's a hot topic. Yeah. And we want to, we want to give confidence to teachers on that because yes, there are challenges involved, but if you've got a few strategies and you've, again, you've got a framework behind that you can work towards, uh, you can have so much more success and confidence in that area. So our course is called Unfazed: How to Teach Neurodiverse Students Confidently. Um, so you can look that up, but yeah, go just explore the website. And if you are interested in, in joining our community, It's at topmusicpro.com.

Topmusicpro.com. Okay, we'll do that. Yes, and I will list all the links in the show notes as well. Hey there, TPP family! The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song is now into our 4th season, and it's all thanks to you. Since 2020, you've been with my journey with the TPP, exploring this burning question: how do we make classical music resonate with today's audience in fresh and captivating ways. 4 years in, and the journey has been nothing short of magical. The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song isn't just a podcast; it's a movement, a space where pianists, composers, and educators brainstorm, debate, and reimagine classical music's place in our fast-paced world. We're together on a mission to ensure classical music doesn't just survive but thrives in our modern But here's the thing: to keep bringing you these insightful biweekly episodes, I need your help. Every bit of support goes into the podcast's essentials, from hosting to high-quality recording tech, and the countless hours behind the scenes. So, do you want to be part of this journey? Click the PayPal link in the show notes or head to thepianopot.com to donate. And as a token of appreciation, I will personally mail you The Piano Pod's snazzy logo sticker. So hit the subscribe button, spread the word, and let's continue our mission and journey as classical musicians. Now let's continue with the show. Now, you're a fellow podcaster, so how am I doing as a host so far? And how are you feeling on the other end of this podcast?

I really— yeah, it is. I really enjoy actually being on the other side sometimes. Yeah, for sure. And I've been interviewed about the book a few times recently, and it's good because it forces you to think and clarify. In fact, writing the book itself was one of the best exercises I've done in clarity of thought, formulating ideas, and structuring things. And so now being interviewed about it just sort of backs that up and supports it. So, No, you're doing an absolute, yeah, cracker job, as we might say in Australia here.

Cracker job.

Well done.

Oh, me? Yes. Oh, that's very kind of you. It means so much. Yes, go ahead.

And I can tell you've put, you know, you've put a lot of thought into it. You've read, you know, read the book and, or parts of it. And I think that's really important for anyone that's interviewing and doing a podcast.

So tell us just briefly about your podcast.

Yeah, so my podcast is called the Integrated Music Teaching Podcast, and it's actually on a pause just at the moment. I got to episode 370 or something, and I just needed to have a little break. So we've actually launched a new podcast called the Top Music Piano Pod with a new host, specifically to look at piano. And my show will— I'm sure it will come back at some stage, and it will be more general music music teaching, instrumental music teaching, but not necessarily piano because we also have a guitar podcast too. And I use the word integrated because I believe that creativity is, and creative activities are best done or explored in lessons when they're connected somehow with a learning outcome and a concept that you're trying to teach. So it's super fun just doing some 12-bar blues at the end of a lesson. But I want teachers to start thinking, is there a way that I can connect that work that I'm doing on the 12 Bar Blues with their understanding of theory or history or whatever it is? And that's the sort of integration that I try and talk about and have done for a couple of years now. So it's going one step further. It's about not just being creative, but it's about integrating creativity and not just creativity, but connecting multiple parts of a lesson together for a student. So I'll just give you one example, which would be I have teachers come up and say, how do I, my students hate playing scales. How do I make scales more interesting or valuable? Have you ever had students say that or have you heard about it?

Oh, yeah, yeah. All the time. Yeah. Yeah.

So my question is, what is the purpose of learning scales? And most teachers will say, well, it's a technical exercise. Builds agility and finger independence and blah, blah, blah. And all of that is true. But, and here's where the integration can be really powerful, students should know, or you should help them understand, that the notes of a scale are built around the key area. So if you're a D major scale, you're in the key of D. And pieces of music are also in keys. So a piece of music in the key of D will use the notes in the melody of the D major scale. We're simplifying, of course. We're just talking nice, fairly simple music, but that's the basis. Most students won't know that. So having them know that is one step, but that's not really the integration. The integration is finding and asking yourself, okay, what activity could I do that actually cements that for a student, that makes it come alive? And so a really easy way to do that, to make this connection between scales and key, would be to say, all right, let's use the notes of the scale that you've learned, the D major scale. We've been playing it for weeks. You know it inside and out. Let's now use that to make up a melody over a simple chord progression in D major so that they can start going, oh, okay, now when I'm learning a new piece, okay, what key is this in? I'm gonna— that's gonna be the first thing I ask myself because I should probably know that scale. Oh, I've got a key of a piece of music in G. I better learn the G scale. And wow, wouldn't you know it, the notes are all the G major scale. There's an F sharp there. Why is that there? Because it's in G major. You know, so we start unpacking connections for students. And this does— the research says it, and I've talked about it. There's information on integrated music teaching on my site if anyone wants to look at it. This does strengthen and solidify knowledge for students, making connections. With unique creative activities.

Yeah, absolutely. That almost like really giving them the context of why do I have to learn this sharp keys or how many keys in certain scales?

Yeah. And you know what? And you want, that's what you want students to do is ask you those questions. So, you know, the key of the piece is G. All right. Now the left hand has moved to E. E, and it sounds sad. So what's going on here? Well, it looks like we're in the B section and maybe we're in E minor and those two keys are related. Why are they related? And off you go. Circle of fifths comes out and let's do some chords playing. And I mean, there's just, if you can open your mind to possibilities like this, you can have so much fun and just build such deep connections and knowledge for students. And I just sort of want to say as well that if you do take up some of these ideas from the no book approach, you will naturally be more inclined to think this way for your other students as well, because this will get you thinking a little bit more about beat and meter and harmony and tonal centers and those things. And next time you have your student who's doing some early intermediate work, you'll go, I did this in the no book thing with my beginner the other day. We should just tap out this rhythm or we should play this chord progression because this is an A minor. And you'll start to think a little bit differently. So if what I was saying about the integrated music teaching is like, oh, over the head, that's, whoa, I don't, that's a step too far. Totally understand. But if you do take on some of these ideas from the no book approach, I think it'll become a little bit more natural for you to think in those ways.

Well, thank you. Wow. You know, I'm learning so much from this conversation. I don't want to stop, but it's, you know, we are coming to almost close to the end of the, toward the end of the conversation, but I have a few more questions. So just bear with me. What does it take to be considered a 21st century music studio? Or how can a music studio be recognized as a 21st century music studio, you think?

Well, I think the first thing you need is a website that wasn't built in the '90s., and is mobile responsive, looks great on phones, doesn't use copperplate, uh, Gothic fonts, uh, like, so you need to present yourself. I'm talking— this is putting my business hat on— you need to present yourself as a modern, positive, practical, fun, uh, studio online and on social and wherever else you choose to spread the message about your studio. So that's one super critical factor. I think another critical factor is just in your pedagogy, having the flexibility and the student-first approach. These are all, they're just really a given now. Teachers listening, again, for the 99%ers, you need to be flexible. You need to have your students have some autonomy in what they're learning. You need to, as much as you can, bring in some of these concepts that the students are listening to? So, can you add elements of popular styles and things into lessons without sort of groaning and making it like the 5 minutes at the end? Because if you haven't already sort of picked this up from what I've said, I'm a very big believer in the power of using creative things, popular styles, pop music to teach fundamentals of music. This isn't the junk food of music lessons. Yes, classical music is important. I love playing classical music and I love teaching classical music 100%. But I tell you what, a student will learn more about harmony and chord progressions through an Ed Sheeran song than they will through a Beethoven sonata or something like that. It's too complex. We need to use some simple music. And yeah, maybe it's only got 4 chords. That's okay. That's actually a really good teaching point. So I have a course and a program for another framework called Four Chord Composing, which I highly recommend. Anyone listening can try it out. You can try it out for free, topmusic.co/chords. Check it out. Try it out. This is part of being a modern studio that you do bring in these elements of new music. And it doesn't matter if you don't listen to it yourself. That's what YouTube's for. Jump on it with your student. Go and explore it. YouTube. Let's talk about YouTube for a second.

Yeah, sure.

YouTube is not your enemy. YouTube is your friend and needs to be your friend because every student is on it. And in fact, you know what? I don't know about you, but when I was a kid, Miss Mack was very open to teaching me things that I wanted to learn, even if it was too hard for me. But I still mucked around. I played stuff on the radio and recorded it on a cassette and played it back and over and over and tried to play it. And I had a synthesizer. I tried making things up. Like, we all do this. Lots of students will do this anyway. They'll be on YouTube. They'll be teaching themselves stuff. So use it, bring it into lessons, get them to show you what they're doing. Help them improve the fingering because it's probably going to be a mess. Help them improve the musicality and the dynamics. There's so much you can do. So that's another element, I think, of of being a professional studio now. Yeah, yeah. Oh, look, there's probably lots more, but hopefully that's a few to get started.

Oh, yeah. Oh, well, thank you for that. Yes. I don't necessarily teach Ed Sheeran, but I use Taylor Swift. Plenty of Taylor Swift.

Perfect. Yes.

Oh, yeah. She's timeless, though.

I've just started recording videos of me reacting to a pop song that has been listed by one of our members. And then working out how on earth I would teach it. And so these are called pop song solutions. These are videos inside our membership so people can just sort of scan through or just search for, oh crap, someone wants to learn Ariana Grande something, type it into Top Music Pro. Oh, there's Tim teaching it. Okay, I've got some ideas. And that's something that I really enjoy doing. I've got to do some more actually. I think we're about time for another batch.

Okay, I'll make sure to follow. Now, so why music education? So how does music education contribute to our lives?

Well, it just enriches everything, doesn't it? I mean, imagine the world without— with all the music gone. I mean, and I think students may miss this fact because they've got headphones in all the time, but there's music everywhere behind movies. For advertisements in shopping centers. I mean, music, we're absorbing music all the time, and I'm really glad that we are because it's just such a magical thing. And so to, you know, we're in a very lucky position to be able to bring this experience to students. We're really privileged. And it's another reason why I want to support teachers to do this, because if you have made this choice, you're not doing it for the money. There's no way. You're doing it for the love. And the passion that you have and the belief that music can change lives and the belief that there is power in music. And that's not to even start on the research behind music learning, which we— I was at this conference yesterday and one of the speakers, Paul Myatt from Australia, who's an amazing teacher and pedagogue and consultant, he gave a quote. Oh, I wish I could remember it exactly, but it was to say the power of music learning. So students that learned a musical instrument, on average, I'm going to bungle this, but on average achieve 90% better results or something in exams across the board or something. It's not quite right, but I hope your listeners will understand. The point I'm trying to make is that there is lots of research about the power of music learning to enrich and strengthen students' abilities in other subjects. And it teaches resilience and it teaches perseverance and it teaches repetition and practice and thinking and all so many different areas. So yeah.

What advice do you have for someone starting to build a music studio?

Oh, that's a good question. I think when you're first starting, you're going to teach just about anybody, and that's great. And you should, because you're just starting out. You're not going to quite know who you want to teach. But over the course of time, I want you to start thinking about how you can specialise and differentiate yourself from other teachers. Who can you be? What's going to be special about you? Is it the fact that you do use a particular method or approach or backing tracks or that you are the best competition preparation winner, or are you the teenage transfer student, which is what I was? Send me your transfer students. That's what I love doing the most. So try and start as soon as you can when you begin your studio to refine who you like. And go back to that word authentic. What is authentic to you? What gives you the most joy in teaching? And try and work that out and then use that as your, the copy on your website and the posts that you do on social media to try and attract more of those students to you. Make sure you've got a good website. Make sure it's modern and up to date and looks great. It's got smiling, happy children on there, preferably ones that you've taught with their permission. And that you've got a relatively structured approach to how you go about teaching that, you know, works and is successful. And can be repeated. And there's, look, there's lots of different ways that we all teach. There's lots of different resources around it. But yes, I think they're the crucial ones. Oh, and I would just say on the business side, if you're just starting out, make sure you look at what you're doing as a business. That means have a separate business account. It means thinking business-mindedly in regard to marketing, knowing that you're in charge of things. You need to make a profit. You're not doing this just because it's fun, although some people do, of course. Most people need to make a profit. So think about it as a business because you are a business owner. And good luck, I say. And come and join us because we love helping beginner teachers. We've got courses. Beginner Teacher Blueprint is one of our most popular courses.

Oh, wow. Yes. Great. Now, any message, advice for young piano students and their parents?

Oh, okay. Yes. Stick at it. Keep it up. I know it's hard. I was a bit of a bad student for some of my time. If I was enjoying the music I was playing, I tended to work really hard on it. And so I would say to parents of students, try and work with your teacher. If they're not the kind of teacher that is flexible and has this kind of modern approach, then try and encourage them to do some research and to look up some of the articles that we supply and things to make sure that they're going to be covering what your child actually wants, what their goals are. Because ultimately, a teacher will have a goal in mind, the student will have a goal in mind. And if there's not crossover and alignment, then that's when we have student drop-off. So we really have to make sure that there is alignment between those two things. And parents, I've been a parent. I think I'm a bit of a failure as a parent in some ways because my child, both my children have stopped learning music. Breaks my heart. But we know that my younger one is incredibly musical and he will pick up any instrument and can play it and he can sing. And it's really annoying because he's really good at all this stuff. He doesn't try. But the thing I do notice is that he will wander around and just pick up a guitar and start playing it for a while. So he's not having lessons, but he's still musical and enjoying it. And so to the parents, I would say, last comment, there's going to be times when your child isn't going to want to practice and may want to quit. And I can't give you the advice as to which way to go, whether you keep pushing them or whether you let them quit. It's so hard, and I feel for you, and I know it's really tricky, particularly if you are a musician yourself. But hang in there and keep encouraging and keep helping the teacher as much as you can to keep your child engaged.

Yes. Without mom and dad, we teachers cannot do by ourselves.

It's a, it's a definitely a triangle.

Oh, definitely. Well, thank you. So for those who are listening, so Tim has a book, No Book Beginners, available on everywhere. Amazon Kindle. Yeah.

And if you want the— you can grab a download of it if you prefer a PDF and you just want to flip through it on your iPad or something. You can get that at topmusic.co/book. And if you grab that, you can also get the audiobook. So I have recorded the full audiobook as well.

Oh, my goodness.

Listening. So that's all. Yeah, that's all on the website. Or yes, as you said, Amazon for Kindle or paperback.

Great. And then also Tim's podcast. Well, it used to be the Integrated Music Teaching Podcast, but now it's The Piano Uh, The Top Music Piano Podcast.

So search for The Top Music Piano Podcast. Great.

And also, of course, topmusic.co to learn more about Tim's business and community. So this has been a really fun, inspiring conversation, Tim. So, but before I let you go, we have to do this TPP rapid-fire questions. It's a ritual. Oh my. Oh, and then these are the top, these are actually really silly, but tough questions, so get ready. So we'll start with something easy. So level 1, what is your comfort food?

Roast— Mum's roast chicken.

How do you like your coffee?

Strong cappuccino, so with some milk.

Okay. Cats or dogs? Cats.

I've got 2.

Oh, how sweet. Sunrise or sunset?

Oh, I'm a morning person, so sunrise, I think.

Okay. Summer or winter?

Definitely summer.

Paper book or ebook?

Ooh, ebook, I think. Yeah.

Okay. Now level 2.

Oh gosh.

What skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?

Oh, easy one. Helicopter pilot. I've had like 2 first lessons and I've never got any further because it's too expensive.

Well, you know, maybe you'll—

One day I'm going to do it. I will.

Okay. What is your word or words to live by?

Uh, try anything once.

What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Kindness.

And name 3 people who you— who inspire you, living or dead.

Okay. Um, my parents, most definitely. Uh, my husband David, and I'm going to choose a business person because my whole business started on the back of one book, uh, which was a book called Dotcom Secrets by a guy called Russell Brunson, who some of your listeners may know is huge in internet marketing circles. Uh, and he— without his book, I'm not sure I would have got where I am.

Now, name one piece in your current playlist.

Oh, okay, that's easy because it's on my stand. Um, which one I'll choose? I'll choose the Fantasy in F minor by Chopin.

Now level 3, 2 more questions to go.

So I'm getting scared now.

If you could meet your future self, what question would you ask?

I would ask— oh my gosh, I really don't know because I was thinking like I would ask, how do you feel you lived your life? And I'd like to think that, yes, I've had an impact and I've left a legacy. No, maybe that's probably the thing that comes to mind. Yeah.

Great. What a great answer. Last question. Fill in the blank. Music is blank.

Could be so many things, couldn't it? Well, the first thing that came to my mind is music is life.

That's like the favorite answers.

Is it?

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Well, you know what? With no book beginners in front of you, music is fun.

Oh, ding ding! Great. That's a perfect answer. So that concludes this episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Tim Dodd. Thank you, Tim, for joining my show today and sharing your stories, insights, and expertise. So for The Piano Pod listeners and viewers, please visit talkmusic.co to learn more about his community and courses and check out his insightful and resourceful podcast. And of course, you can purchase his book book on his website as well. So all the links are listed in the show notes. Thank you to my wonderful audience fans for tuning in today. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review it on whatever podcast platform you use. Remember to hit the thumbs up button and subscribe to my YouTube channel if you are watching this episode on YouTube. Follow TPP on social media to get the latest piano news. I will see you for the next episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Tim Ray. Thank you, Tim. Bye everyone.

Thank you so much, Yukimi Song. Bye-bye, everyone.

Thank you.