Season 4 Episode 16: “Piano, Pedagogy, Pioneering” with Irina Gorin - Founder of The Gorin Institute

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Ah, you like this song? Okay, so feet flat, right? Big arms, strong body like a horse, right? Rider, feet in stirrups. Closer to the black keys. And it starts on D. Good. And which finger is this? What finger? 2. 2. Meow. Deeper.

Meow.

Zzz. Cat.

Bow. Wow.

Says, said, dog. Oink, oink. Says, said, pig. And squeak, goes the mouse. You did such a good job. But, Milica, look, what did you do like that? Remember when we use monkey swing? You still have your monkey. Which part of the arm is moving? Which part? The wrist. We don't move the whole body or the elbow, right?

See?

No, no, no, no, just the wrist, honey.

See?

That's it.

Welcome back to another episode of The Piano Pod. Here, tradition meets innovation. We bridge the timeless beauty of the piano with the dynamic pulse of today's world. I am your host, Yukimi Song. The title of today's episode is Piano Pedagogy Pioneering with a very special guest, Ms. Irina Goran, educator, creator of Tales of a Musical Journey method books, and founder of the Goran Institute. She has become one of the most sought-after pedagogues and speakers at music educators' conferences, masterclasses, and workshops, sharing her expertise and passion for teaching music and mentoring fellow piano teachers worldwide. We've wanted to interview her since Season 1, but we were not able to book her till really recently. Ms. Goran is in such high demand. Finally, I decided to get in touch with an old friend of mine from college, Amy, amazing pianist and piano teacher based in the West Coast, and she came to my rescue. She was able to connect me directly to Ms. Goran. So I'm very excited to invite Irina Goran and hear her story today. And also, I asked you guys on Facebook and Instagram if you have any questions for Ms. Goran, and I received several questions and feedback from you. So thank you for participating. I added your questions to the list of topics we will be discussing during the show, so be sure to watch or listen to this special episode till the end. Before getting started, let me read a brief bio of today's guest. Ms. Irina Goran is renowned for her pioneering piano teaching techniques, particularly for young children and beginners. Born in Ukraine and carrying over 30 years of teaching experience, she has made significant contributions to children's piano education globally. Her instructional series, Tales of a Musical Journey and Musical Journey, merge Eastern European and Western teaching methods to effectively introduce beginners to classical piano. These books have been translated into 14 languages and are utilized in over 90 countries. In addition to writing, Ms. Gorn actively engages with the piano community by conducting workshops, master classes, and serving as a judge at competitions. During the COVID pandemic, she established the Gorn Institute to further support and enrich piano pedagogy worldwide. This institute offers a variety of educational programs that continue to influence piano teachers globally with her innovative teaching approaches. So in this episode, we'll be diving into a discussion with Ms. Goran, exploring the core of her Tales of a Musical Journey method books, the reasons behind their creation, the key to her successful teaching approach, and how she supports the fellow piano teachers globally through her organization, The Gorny Institute, and more. But before we dive in, a warm welcome to new listeners and a big thank you to our faithful TPP fans. Don't forget to rate and review the show on your favorite podcasting platform. Dear TPP fans and listeners, I am thrilled to welcome today's guest. To start our conversation, please Enjoy the show. You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century. Welcome, Irina, to The Piano Pod. Honored to have you, and thank you for being here today.

Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm very honored and excited.

Oh, thank you. So I have been wanting to interview you since the start of this show in 2020. So finally, my dream as a podcaster came true today, and yay! And we have a lot to cover in such a limited amount of time, so let's get into it. So a colleague of mine introduced me to your method books, Tales of a Musical Journey, years ago, and I was instantly captivated by the illustrations in the book. They reminded me of the old fables and children's stories from my childhood. I've gained some young beginner piano students recently after letting go of my high school students for college, so I decided to research, and then I decided to use your books with my beginner students and made me realize the importance of engaging them in the world of music and piano in a more imaginative way from the start. And the kids love the storytime, and I appreciate how the books introduce new concepts through characters and stories. It's really made my teaching beginners a lot more fun and encouraging. You know, it encourages imagination and creativity to children. So what inspired you to create your Piano Method book series?

It probably will not sound very exciting, but what inspired me was desperation when I immigrated from Ukraine. And I've been already— I had been teaching there for 13 years before I came to the United States. And even though I was a young teacher and made lots of mistakes, even though I had a very intensive pedagogy, not only piano performance, but piano pedagogy training, which included 9 years of weekly group classes and teaching under supervision of my own teacher. Um, I, I loved teaching it. It's a passion since I was a child. And in my mind, I was the best teacher before I started teaching my own students. And then I realized that all my knowledge and all my experience as a college student teaching with my teacher worth nothing when it comes to beginners.

Yeah, it's a little— yeah, totally different ballgame.

Yeah, absolutely. We had only a few method books back in Ukraine. They didn't upgrade. There were no much new materials coming up. We still use those that I used as a child. But with time, children change, technology changes, and of course those books I learned with were not as good for kids I was teaching. It was new generation. They seemed bored, they seemed uninterested. I, I didn't know how to fill the lesson with with things, with activities, because I wasn't taught that. I, I read tons of books on piano performance, on piano technique. Uh, we worked on musical form with the student on analysis, but with 6-year-old child, you can't do these things. And especially I couldn't do them with existing method books, but because, um, piano education in Ukraine was quite different. It wasn't private education. It was a system. It was a school. We had certain requirements and, um, we had at least 2 individual lessons a week, 45 minutes lesson per student, plus tons of group lessons like solfeggio, theory, music history, accompaniment, ensemble, choir. So it was very different. So I just went with the flow and I actually, besides feeling not excited about teaching beginners and looking forward until they pass this first stage, I had good results. Let's say. And when I arrived to the United States, of course I wanted to see what teachers, uh, teach with. And I went to the music shop where I experienced a real cultural shock. Hundreds of colorful, beautiful, amazing books. And I spent all my budget for a month, my family budget, in that shop in that one day because I, I was hungry for these things. And I thought it was amazing. It was, uh, it had artworks, it had lyrics to the songs, the font was big, it was only one song per page. Archer in Ukrainian books, we had like 5, 6 songs per page, no artworks, no anything, very small font. And I started teaching with these books and I tried probably everything we had in '90s here in the United States, every single one. To my dismay. The results were terrible. I expected my students to get excited, to get interested, to, to be loving piano lessons. After a few lessons, it all went down. It was worse than with my old books, which of course I couldn't use here. The old books, it was out of the question. So I started during the lessons creating some kind of games. Um, trying to get kids to listen to music, to use their imagination, trying to make up little stories for the pieces they were playing. The problem was they were in method books. They were not actually pieces, they were 5-finger patterns. How many emotions or feelings you can put in 5 notes that go in different order? Uh, it was a real struggle, but the biggest challenge and puzzle for me was why my students in the United States were so crippled physically. There was so much tension in the whole body, in the hands, in fingers. I read in one of the method book, I think, Monster Claw. And they, they hands looked like monster claws, especially younger kids, because they had to stretch all their fingers over 5 piano keys. And pianos are not designed for children. They're designed for adults. But even my hand, I, I have huge hand. I can reach interval, 11s easily.

No way. Really?

Even when I put my hand in a relaxed position on the piano, I don't cover 5 keys easily. I do have to stretch a little bit. So imagine 5, 6-year-old coming to the lesson and you immediately show them how to stretch and this way accumulate tension. It was absolutely new for me. As much as it seemed logical and it, it seemed like it would give instant results because it's very logical. You put 5 fingers over 5 keys, move your fingers and you get Ode to Joy by Beethoven. But with time I realized how crippling it was and how children didn't learn how to use their wrist. Either of the function, because wrist is one of the most important joints in our body for playing the piano. But with 5-finger position, when hand is stretched, you can't really use your wrist in any direction— not vertical, not horizontal, not circular, not rotating— because fingers are glued to the keys and you just push them with the whole hand, which brings even more tension. And, um, another thing that happened to me within the first 10, 15 years of teaching in the United States, that kids start piano lessons much earlier than we used to start in Ukraine. For example, I started as 5 and a half year old, but my sister was teaching me at home at first. In, in the music school, you could enter only after you turn 6. 6, and then you still have the whole year of preparatory, uh, level, and then you go to the first grade. Here I got students who were tiny. They were 4 or 5 years old with small stature, and, um, I couldn't even imagine doing this, stretching their fingers, especially with 4 or 5-year-old How you can start lessons saying quarter note has 1 beat? What does it tell a child? And half note has 2 beats. And that's how most of the method books start. And then you start playing and of course they don't, they have no idea about relationship between 1 beat and 2 beats and they count it, they count, they learn to count, but it doesn't sound right because no still sense of the rhythm. And in 2010, uh, one of my existing students brought her little sister to the lesson, and this tiny 4-year-old— she just turned 4— said, "I want to take piano lessons." And I couldn't say no to her, but she was so little, so tiny. It was right before summer break. And I thought, at least I have these 3 months or 2 months to think about how even start piano with her. And in summer, it's always easier schedule because a lot of people are on vacations. So I just sat down at one moment and I started kind of thinking through what can I tell, how can I introduce her to piano and what to do and use the technique I used in the cream, which wasn't 5-finger position. It doesn't have a name. In fact, I call it finger number 3 approach, where all the beginning, uh, tunes, melodies, pieces are played only with finger number 3. And this way, the students inevitably, without forcing them, learn to use their wrist and switching from tension when they press the key to relaxation when they release the key. With balancing on finger number 3, they learn all the functions of the wrist. They learn how to support their weight from the upper body when they go to the keyboard through the fingertips. So it happens naturally. Then they easily transfer to finger number 4. 2 and 4, and only then— and for children it usually takes different time— we go to finger number 5, which require a lot more of horizontal wrist motion, and then much later thumb. And even though at first the process, the progress seems slower, uh, by the time they play 5 fingers they already absorbed all the fundamental skills. And that's what we call non-legato. Unfortunately, and I tried to raise this question in many piano teacher forums and at all my workshops in the United States and around the world, except Eastern Europe, people have no idea about this articulation. They think it's not existing. If it's called non-legato, they think it means it's not articulation, it's just no legato, not connected. We actually had different word in Ukraine. We use the word portamento for the articulation, which is fundamental and it has to come before legato and staccato. But here it means a violin articulation. It doesn't apply to piano. So it was struggle for me to find. I did very long and deep research on all these things and came to the conclusion that it is in fact called non-legato. So non-legato, naturally, when kids master it, it naturally evolves into two-note slurs and more to legato eventually and staccato. That comes very easily and quickly and with good sound and without any tension. Preparatory stage: breathe in, wrist goes up. Main stage: breathe out, gently drop natural body weight in the key, support by a finger. Listen to the beginning duration and the end of every sound. Third, final stage: breathe in, Release tension, restop. This little girl, her name is Chinyao, inspired me along with all my previous years of desperation to write the book. And I wrote for each lesson with her, I wrote a story that would introduce her to certain concepts. And by the end of her first year, She just turned 5. She was able to play simple pieces from children's repertoire, even from Anna Magdalena Bach, short pieces by Diabelli, little etudes by Czerny. She, and she started developing very, very well. And that was the year I actually started posting my videos on YouTube. And I posted videos with her. Me teaching her. And I started receiving tons of emails from teachers. What methods, what method are you teaching with? And I didn't even have a book. I had just papers. And that would, um, I never even in my wildest dream would think it will become a method book. That, that's how it happened.

Wow. And then Basically, you revolutionized the, uh, really early childhood education in piano teaching.

You know, it wasn't the purpose to revolutionize. Um, in fact, I didn't invent the wheel. All I applied is something I learned from my own education, from my own experience, through my struggles. And what I actually did, I adapted it and, um, made this good sequence of how to teach and what to teach after. And also adapted it for a young age, created stories, created lyrics. It wasn't very good in the first year because I'm not a native speaker. So it took two editions and a lot of helpers. To finally have it in a good shape, but at least all my students understood me. That was good. And parents. So I wouldn't say it revolutionary method. It's not something that comes out of nowhere. It just thinking through and bringing out what needs, needs to be done at the first lessons. Especially what difficult thing about all the resources I studied and researched, uh, all the works of famous pedagogues, none of them actually worked with ordinary children. They all had gifted kids because they were big names. If they wrote a book about pedagogy, they definitely were big names, pedagogues who would never work with the childhood who doesn't practice, who doesn't have talent, or at least brilliant ear or natural velocity. And that's the biggest challenge because for all my 40 years of teaching, I probably had 4 or 5 above average kids. I never even experienced huge talents, you know, from, from nature that were born pianists. But with Tales of a Musical Journey, I could develop ordinary kids in outstanding ones. And that, that's probably the biggest pride I take because all my students can play well. I, when, when I watch my own recitals, I know what these kids struggle with. I know their challenges, but no one else can tell it. On many occasions, I was accused of being elite teacher teaching elite students, that teaching only gifted kids. And I know for sure that this is not the case.

Really? Because I'm watching. I usually refer a lot of pieces through your YouTube channel, like how you're teaching, and then they looked like a gifted student.

Yes. As I told you, I, I always do an initial interview with the family who inquires to take lessons, and I never ever choose a child by their abilities. In fact, I love pedagogical challenges. I love to see those changes in the students. But what is really important for me, I choose parents. Actually, I choose family who trusts me, who would follow my suggestions, who would not question my intentions. And If we are on the same page, then I don't care how much or how little the kid is talented. I can do a lot. I'll play for you now. You quickly turn around and play this note.

I would like, love to discuss this amazing book now. So, uh, let's just get in into the inside of this method book. So can you introduce us to fun characters in the book?

Yes, when I prepared for lessons with little Qing Yao I, uh, that summertime I took to study how kids learn, young children, preschool ages. And what I've learned, they don't get things from explanations or demonstrations, only through analogies, through images, through stories, through artwork. They need to see, they need to hear, they need to imagine. As they need to feel or experience. And all of that I try to use. So when I created the stories, they're not just stories. They have characters. Each of those have their own con— theory concept. For example, Fairy Musicalina is a magic creature that comes, she has wings, so she can fly in anytime anyone has any musical trouble and help them. Other characters are King Meter, one of the main characters. So with him, his character, I introduce kids to the word meter and to the concept of the beat, along with Withered Metronome. Who work together. Prince Rhythm introduces the relationship between short and long sounds. Princess Melody brings a concept of melody. Um, Sir Grumpalina is the evil magician who muted the notes and turned them into rests. I have many animal characters who first they introduce the notes. For example, I have them in this box.

I have them too.

Cat C for middle C, deer for D, and so on. But also they teach us some very important technical skills. For example, when I introduced the kata, Freddy the Frog and It's already our beloved character because it's note F, but it also was very talented in jumping. So when we learn staccato, we put Freddy the Frog on our wrist and have him jump far away and try and do this, they immediately learn a good staccato. Of course, now it's If you try it on the first lesson, it's not gonna work. Of course, to come to that point, they need to learn all other prior skills to that. But, uh, all these characters— or we have a song about butterfly, and also we have a butterfly that we put on our wrist and it teaches us vertical wrist motion. The butterfly flies from note to note. Uh, and then I don't have to tell them, you need to relax, relax your wrist or lift your wrist off or float off your wrist. I just say, where's butterfly? And immediately they start floating. Or there is another very hard concept as horizontal wrist motion, which a lot of students lacking, again, because of 5-finger position, because they're so stuck and keep their thumb always on the certain note that they don't move your wrist toward 5th finger as we have to. So we have another character, a little monkey. We put it on the wrist It has Velcro. I'll just hold it. And when on the key, we sway a baby monkey and say, "Wee, wee." And he's doing it on long notes, on the whole notes first. And then we can add it to playing 3, 4, and 5 fingers, or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Again, I don't— need to explain them. In fact, music is such an abstract thing, and movement is— will be different for each individual student. We can't measure it and say, move your wrist half an inch to the right. We can't tell it to children. But if I say monkey swing, where's our little monkey? And it immediately becomes natural. And what their body feels like doing. Some other props I have, especially with transfer kids, I use this little rubber elastic band to teach them to relax, to feel the weight of the hand. I use that to help them to transfer from note to note. So I try to find things that are close to them, that they don't find it weird or, you know, foreign, and they love it because it's fun. It turns into a game instead of really like instructional, do this, do that.

Great. Because, you know, I think one of my audiences, they had a question. So, you know, when I am trying to teach piano technique, their reaction is, you know, like, oh, like rolling their eyes because it's boring to them.

I never even say the word technique.

That's smart.

We only play games and we use all these props and stories because if children have a vivid image, very vivid image in their head, it's so much easier for them to do certain movement or gesture or even produce a sound, find certain way to produce a sound because they can describe what they want. To be able to play on the piano and do it well, you need to know how you want it to sound. If you have no idea, if you have no image of that sound, it will not sound good.

So thanks to American students that you learn from where you felt like, you know, at the time they're really tight, rigid in their posture and whatever. So that's one of the inspirations. And then so that's the reason your book method books and your method of teaching really focus on piano technique.

Yes and no. I don't think piano technique, uh, is the most important thing in piano teaching. Imagine box of tools, like tools for house repair, and you don't know which tool is used for what. Would they be a lot of help? Of course not. You need to know why you need those tools and how to use them. So for me personally, and actually right now I'm reading amazing book called Famous, Famous Masters, I think, and Their Technique, written by a jeweler, former professor Reginald Garrick. Absolutely amazing book. And the first chapter is called What is technique? And the whole chapter is filled with quotes of the most famous and amazing pianists, pianists and pedagogues from around the world, world. And they are all, I would say, opposite. Some say the technique is the most important thing. The others say no, musical, uh, the sound is the most important thing. For me personally, and again, there could be other opinion, technique is the tool to produce beautiful tone. That's the goal. That's why we learn all of these, to be able to express ourselves and feel comfortable while doing that. Feel rhythm. Otherwise, you don't need technique. That's what I think. And that's why in my books, the stories, the songs, they all work for developing students' imagination and making them active participants in the lessons rather than passive observers. So they participate, they want to experience. Experiment. They want to try, uh, they want to learn, they want to know what's next. Because all the stories, like in a chapter book, it's not separate fairy tale. It's like in a chapter book, they go, they start in the beginning, they go through both levels, um, and that creates the thirst for what's next. And kids, sometimes they come to the lesson and say, oh, I already read next chapter.

Yes, same thing happened to me. That is, which is so fascinating. Using your book, they're actually, you know, some, a lot of students are like, I already read the next chapter and I already read even next after that. So they know the story already. So that's, that's great.

Makes my work so much easier.

How many levels are there? So I have this, you know, the basic one, and I also have different Musical Journey Etudes and Duets and many more.

Yes. So Tales of a Musical Journey come in two levels, Level 1 and Level 2, which should— teachers should be able to cover first year of lessons with this book. Books. And then I feel that children do not need method books anymore. Everything else could be introduced while playing good pieces, which there are a lot of them in the world written by big composers, small composers, pedagogues, and folk songs from different countries. No, I mean, in Five Finger Position Method, you probably could find few traditional songs, and maybe one arrangement of a classical song, but I want them to get into the world of real music as soon as possible. So Musical Journey, not Tales, but Musical Journey is that purple series. I'll have already 4 different levels of those. These are collection of those amazing pedagogical and classical pieces. That I start actually while in the second book of, of tales. I use them for the recital, for extra sight reading, for extra duets, and then children smoothly transition. And thanks to another teacher, Ek Mar, who created activity books for all tales and Level 1 of Musical Journeys, they have activities, theory activities to do with that, and some creative activities like composition and improvisation, ear training things. We— I always incorporate all of them in my lessons.

Really? Not just a traditional note reading, but—

No, no, no. All my students in almost every lesson, we do something to give them excitement, feel of accomplishment, develop their creativity, develop their ear. So many teachers ask me in my conferences and courses, students don't like polyphonic music, how to make them like Bach? They hate it. And I, the teacher, saying, I don't like it either. It will not happen if we don't develop the ear for that. When students from the first lessons learn to listen the sound, single sounds, and to listen to a motive of 2 or 3 sounds, then they hear 1 sound in the left hand, 2 sounds in the right hand, they start developing this polyphonic ear, and then they will love polyphonic music when they they come to it, especially playing a lot of folk songs which are all written in polyphonic imitative style. But unfortunately existing method books— that's another very big disadvantage— they introduce children practically at once to homophonic style of music, and of course then the teachers have trouble with balancing right and left hand because students don't understand how it all works, and have trouble playing chords because it's so tense. So working on composition, uh, working on improvisation, on ear training, it's an integral part of every lesson, especially first year.

So it's so good that you incorporate all that very important essence of music into a book, because as a music teacher, it's really overwhelming, right? And although we have the training and knowledge, but it's like, it's too much information and I don't know where to start. And the kids need a structured and step-by-step instruction. Before continuing this fun episode, I'd like to take a moment to highlight The Piano Pod's valued sponsor, PH Media Studio, whose generous support helps us make this episode possible. Attention, The Piano Pod fans! I have exciting news just for you! Our website has undergone an incredible transformation. Ta-da! Welcome to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, the newly revamped website featuring exclusive interviews with celebrated pianists and educators, showcasing podcast episodes, and captivating YouTube content. There's a lot to discover for every piano enthusiast just like you. With an intuitive design and smooth navigation, your journey through ThePianoPod.com is more fun than ever. And meet the creative force at the heart of this transformation— Poki Wang— with his latest venture, PH Media Studio. Poki has reimagined The Piano Pod's digital space into a sanctuary for all piano lovers. So head over to our website to immerse yourself in the piano universe in Discover the magic firsthand today. And if you are an independent artist like myself and want to elevate your online presence, look no further than PH Media Studio. Trust me, you won't be disappointed. So go to phmediastudio.com to see his amazing portfolio. So get in touch with the amazing Poki Huang today for more information. By the time they finish, let's say, first 2 method books, where are they at level? Maybe you mentioned a little bit the girl that you first— you taught, uh, she was able to play maybe minuet.

Yeah, everyone is a different level because of different abilities, different practice ethics, different amount of lessons per week, different ages. I never try to categorize my students So by the end of level 1, you have to be here, or by the end of first year. By the end of second year, you have to be here. Everybody develops differently, but my real goal is to immerse them in real music as soon as possible, as soon as they can. Usually in the second year, I start introducing some simple etudes, and that's all in Musical Journey. If you look inside, you can see that most of these pieces are still very short because usually when kids start at 4 or 5, by the time they finish, still, they're still very young. They're still 6 or 7, right? And all of the pieces, I feel like they have to be short to give children opportunity to learn a lot of those. Because when I get to sheet music of level 1, let's say, of American composers, they are 2 pages long. Even in method books starting from level 1, a lot of pieces are already 16 measures long, 32 measures long, 2 pages long, and sometimes it takes months just to learn the notes even though they are in the same finger position, but it's It's, it's, it's not fun. Kids forget how to read notes. So my goal was to compile this book of pieces that are super short, that are easy to learn the notes. So we have time to really work on musicality, on developing new skills, necessary skills to play it musically. Right. So some kids go through this Level 1A very quickly. For some kids, it could take a semester or even two, and it's okay as long as they don't stay on the same piece for too long. I would say for after first year, they still need to be able to learn a few pieces every 3, 4 weeks. And this, and it's very important to, I actually, in my pedagogy courses, I have the whole session about choosing the right repertoire. For children. It's so important to give them something for technique, like little etude, folk song for developing polyphonic hearing. And we are talking about the youngest. Some classical homophonic piece, like maybe Tiny Deer Belly or Turk pieces, or Leopold Mozart. Some minuets by Haydn and Leopold Mozart, and of course contemporary pieces, some with jazzy styles, which usually I teach the youngest ones by ear. Yes, because again, they can't understand jazz rhythm in such a young age. It will take ages. They will hate it. They will still— until you know fractions really, really well, until you understand fractions, how can you understand these complex rhythms. But when you have a nice accompaniment and repetitive pattern, they get it really quickly. Even I'm teaching now my 5-year-old granddaughter. Yes. And I, I can tell how happy she is to learn those things that it would take months for me to explain to her, and she can play them with is just by ear. So I don't really like the term by rote, which a lot of teachers use these days. I never even heard this word before I— before the past 10-15 years. I really, um, do think teaching playing by ear is very, very important. Teaching to transpose teaching to pick up the melodies. And with my students, I usually have like each month devoted to certain activity. Like this month we transpose something, this month we play by ear something, we pick up, I pick up for them. They want, I want them to play by ear. This month we compose and so on. For me, by rote, it just, imitating or copying teacher's hand without actually involving the ear. Or a lot of teachers who love 5-finger positions, which I think because they don't know the other way. Uh, for me, it's easy to say because I experienced both and with my level of education, I don't think I did something wrong with 5-finger positions. To not appreciate them. But experience in both ways, I can tell how many, you know, advantages, disadvantages each one has. So even when they play only with finger number 3 and I ask them to pick up by ear, they will not use the sequence of fingering to find the next note. They'll use the ear to do that. But when you introduce certain things in 5-finger position and ask them to play by rote, it's just learning the finger pattern. It's involving the ear. Sometimes I help my students. I don't say I never show them anything. If they have trouble, I don't mind to help, and I, I can tell them, here you move a little bit up, here you can skip down, but the rest they find themselves. So I want, again, I want them to be active. I want them to take initiative and be curious.

Yeah. Yeah. Can you share any success stories or anecdotes from students who have used your method books to learn piano? I'm sure, I mean, thousands of them, but maybe one or two that struck.

You know, kids say the darn cute things in the lesson. That's why I enjoy these young ages so much. They are probably my favorite age to teach, even though I, of course, I like all, all my students. I love teaching them, and especially when we get to a real repertoire, it's amazing. But, uh, these kids, they never filter what they say, and it's really hard for me because every lesson brings something. And it's not— it doesn't have to be connected with Tales of a Musical Journey. Like, some kids, their focus is so switching, and that shows how important for us to keep changing activities often and get them curious and interested and participating in the lesson so they don't lose that focus. But I had a little boy And in the middle of my explanation, or in the middle of just doing things, his eyes suddenly catch his feet and he says, I have new socks. I lost my old ones.

Those are classic.

Yeah. Yeah. Another, I have now a girl client. Player who cracks me up every lesson she has. Anything I say, she adds her own interpretation. And it's so funny. The other day I was explaining to her, she played and put her thumb flat on the side. And I say, you know, your thumb looks so sleepy and tired. It should be awakened. It should be alert. And she says, right, not like it wants to fall asleep. Like, I want to go party at 9 o'clock in the morning.

Oh, that's funny.

Very early I introduced students to playing duets, practically from the first lessons. At first I play with them and then I start putting them together back to back. And one of my other students, Jerry, because he's like tall boy, and I didn't have other boys at the time, and I always put them with girls. So he used to play second— seconda in duets. And it's not because I wanted it. It just happened mostly because he was more advanced And the seconda is like a teacher's part. And once he said, why should I do all this work and no one even sees me? Because I always play seconda. So I said, okay, I'm playing with you and I'll be seconda, you'll be prima.

So. Oh, cute. Yeah. They are the best. Yes. And then, you know, honestly, they are so, so lucky to have you as a teacher.

Oh, thank you.

Oh.

Blessed with all my students. Honestly, I love them all.

But really, honestly, they're learning from the get-go from the master, right? I mean, that's so special. I took a little, like, 3 months of violin lesson when I was a kid, and then, you know, at that time you record yourself on a cassette tape and then you send it to the Suzuki headquarters, and then actually Mr. Suzuki recorded his comment on the other side of the cassette tape. So that's how special it was. And that's how I think your students feel special learning from you.

You know, I don't really want them to feel like, oh, I'm— even though I did have some kids who would come to me with my book and my pictures and, is it you? But I'm trying to build a very trusting and warm relationship with each child so they don't feel that much of a distance. I want them to be able to share things with me. I want to not to be only their piano instructor. I want to be their mentor, their friend, their piano parent. And only this way we can really hope for really good results. If, if students are afraid of a teacher or feel, oh, I'm so little, she's so, so big, I— it will not work well. So my students come give me hugs, when they leave they give me hugs, and They don't mind when I touch their hand and try to show with my hand. They trust me and they feel close to me and they share things that bother them. And I always ask at the lesson how their day was or their week, anything that bothered them or anything exciting happened, and they love sharing.

Hey there, TPP family! The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song is now into our 4th season and it's all thanks to you. Since 2020, you've been with my journey with the TPP, exploring this burning question: How do we make classical music resonate with today's audience in fresh and captivating ways? 4 years in, and the journey has been nothing short of magical. The Piano Pod isn't just a podcast; it's a movement, a space where pianists, composers, and educators brainstorm, debate, and reimagine classical music's place in our fast-paced world. We're together on a mission to ensure classical music doesn't just survive but thrives in our modern age. But here's the thing: to keep bringing you these insightful biweekly episodes, I need your help. Every bit of support goes into the podcast's essentials, from hosting to high-quality recording tech, and the countless hours behind the scenes. So do you want to be part of this journey? Click the PayPal link in the show notes or head to thepianopot.com to donate, and as a token of appreciation, I will personally mail you The Piano Pod's snazzy logo sticker. So hit the subscribe button, spread the word, and let's continue our mission and journey as classical musicians. Now let's continue with the show. Your books are so loved by not just people in North America, but worldwide. So at this point, how many countries are you reaching out to? How many languages this method book is being translated to?

So it's been, it's been translated to 15 languages, but now it's in work in 2 more. Or even 3 more.

Now, so, but what would be the challenge? Because, you know, you speak multiple languages, so do I. So translation is tricky because you think of one sentence, but in other language you have to sort of explain in different ways. And of course there's a cultural context as well that you have to consider. What are some challenges like that?

Uh, to tell you the truth, I never translated it to any of the languages. Uh, and I never asked for translation. Teachers asked me, they contacted me and asked me if they can translate my book to different language. In fact, very interesting story. After 2 years of just introducing this as a method book, or even the first year, I get an email from a young lady in— from Colombia. And she said, I'm sorry, I took a liberty, but here are your books in Spanish and attached files, completely new artwork and all done.

Wow.

Uh, her name is Juliana Reina, and we are big, very good friends now. And this year she is organizing Tales Festival in Colombia on May 22nd through 26th, where kids will have to play pieces from Tales and Musical Journey with orchestra. Wow.

So What do you think the attribute to this success, your teaching method, and what aspects of your books do you believe resonate strongly with fellow piano instructors worldwide?

You know, I, I can only convey what teachers told me, not what I think, because it's hard for me to think for other people. But what they say mostly when they see, uh, my students and the process of my teaching, which I post a lot of my lessons, just entire lessons on, on YouTube. When they watch it and try even some little things and see immediate results, they never want to go back to the way they taught. And It's just word of mouth. I haven't ever used any marketing, uh, tools. I never paid for any advertisements. All the only things I did, I posted my videos on YouTube and I started my own Facebook group, and I also participate in other Facebook groups and sometimes post my videos. But when teachers see how my beginners play and compare to those kids who really struggle with 5 Finger Position Method, they become curious and they try it and then they feel, okay, if this— they think if this works, then maybe other things will also work. Maybe I'll try the whole book and they get the book and I don't know real percentage But most of the teachers who once try the book, they, they continue using it. I have lots of requests for a book for older beginners because kids who are older than 7, 8, 9, they might not receive well princess and prince, you know, this stuff. So right now I'm in the process, I'm almost finishing the book for older beginners. And hopefully design— the main work is done, uh, and designing will start now. So hopefully maybe a few months and it will be ready. It will not have stories, uh, or colorful artworks. It will be targeted toward kids above 8, 9, up to adults. But the sequencing and musical material will be the same. A little bit more detailed explanation of why we need this technique, why, for example, wrist is important, something I don't use with little kids. But for older kids, they— and especially adults, they want to know, they think logically. They want to know why I need to use wrist. This way or that way? Why I need to lift fingers not that way but this way? So I try to work a little bit with that logic and give them a little food for thought and way to experience and experiment. But hopefully it will be helpful for those teachers who want to try non-positional method.

So, I mean, I have a lot more questions with the piano technique, but that's another, another time. I think you have to come back and just— we just need to focus on one topic at a time, I think, because you're so resourceful. But I'd like to know who Ms. Irina Goran is. So you basically, you know, explain that you're from originally from Ukraine. That's where the training happened. But by whom were you influenced to become a teacher today?

You know, I think I was born with desire to be a teacher. Even when I was 5, 6-year-old, I remember myself playing school with my friends, having a journal, putting grades to imaginable students. My mom was a teacher. She was teaching, um, Russian language and literature in school. She was amazing storyteller. She introduced me to all the writers and painters and explained how painting and literature work together while my father was ballet dancer. And I practically was born in the theater, almost. So I, I used to watch all the performances, ballet and opera. We had a big theater in Kyiv, and my father was one of the leading, um, dancers. So I, I was raised in very cultural family. My older sister took piano lessons, uh, so she's 10 years older. So when I was born, she was already quite advanced in piano playing. So I remember myself falling asleep, and we lived in such small apartments The Piano Pod was in my bedroom. I remember falling asleep with the sounds of Greek sonata, which was very hard to fall asleep.

Wow. I hope you had a good dream.

So I had all this music sounding all the time in my head. But I also loved young kids, little kids. I loved to babysit and Since when I went to college, of course, of course, I was very ambitious to become a pianist, but with time I realized that being on stage is not my passion, especially by myself. I loved accompaniment. Uh, I accompanied singers and other instrumentalists and choirs. I loved it. Not solo performance, but by the end of college, I knew I wanted to be a teacher again. I, I dreamed of being a teacher in my head. I was such a great teacher that kids would love to practice. It will all destroy them in one. Yeah. I, It's, it's my life. I can't even say it's my job. It's, it's practically my life because I don't think there is a time in my day when I don't think about music or my students or teaching. Of course I have family and I, of course I want to spend time with my own children and talk to them. But between that, I live by music and teaching.

Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm sorry for what's happening in Ukraine right now. It must be so heartbreaking. But in many ways, you grew up in really cultural balanced life. Yes. Yeah, that's beautiful. And, you know, as this country, United States, as rich as it is, to go to the concert hall is actually, like, you kind of have to make an effort to get go, you know, it's not quite surrounded by it. Although I live in New York City, but it's an effort, right? And even like when I tried to encourage my students.

And a lot of money.

Oh, definitely.

When I was in Ukraine, I can't even remember the weekend that my parents wouldn't take me either to museum or theater or concert hall. It was kind of like a routine, very inexpensive. And it was, we had it, it's just our life.

Yeah.

Wow. Wow.

And we had so many theaters.

Yeah.

I can't even count. We probably had several drama theaters, opera and ballet theater, opera and ballet for children's theater, where my father worked late years of his life. And, uh, we probably had 10 or 15 orchestras, and we have musical, uh, comedy theater where my husband, uh, worked in. So yeah, it, it was the way of life.

I know you're influencing a lot of millions of people out there. You, you yourself even can't imagine how many people are impacted through your methods, through your videos. So, uh, the Goren Institute, so can you provide an overview of the mission and goals of the institute? Who is this for? What educational programs or courses this institute offer to support professionals?

Absolutely. It's, it's another interesting story, which I never thought would happen. I didn't have any idea. If you ask me if I thought it would happen 5 years ago, I would say never. But the circumstances, the life just happened. It just happened. So Since, uh, more people started watching my videos with Tales of a Musical Journey, they started asking questions. And of course, it's really hard to answer all the questions through like a comment or even email. And, uh, I started visiting— I was invited to give short presentations and workshops in different universities. Then I started organizing workshops in my own town, Carmel. I had lots of teachers coming. I was invited to work for a week in Boston in music school at Piano Camp and gave workshops. So I had maybe 5, 6 big workshops per year. But in 2017, I was contacted by a musician originally from Austria, Patrick Lechner, who invited me to come to International Week to China. Their university was, um, organizing this International Week where they would invite people with workshops, with masterclasses. And even though it was very scary for me, first of all, to travel alone, not knowing anything about the country, never been there before. But as my husband says, I was very brave and went and it changed my life. I'm so happy I did because it's completely changed my life. While being there, I was invited to 10 different cities with workshops and amount of attending, the number of people attending was mind-blowing. And at the same time, I was invited to work in the university. And next year, my whole family moved to China. Uh, not, not the whole family, my youngest daughter, my husband, and I moved to China for me being able to work at the university and continue doing those workshops.

Really?

So you're moving away from the United States?

Yes. I, I lived for 3 years in China.

Oh my goodness.

Yes. I've met amazing people, amazing teachers. I'm still friends with so many of them. I loved it. Um, just, just loved it. And then COVID happened. It happened while winter break when my family came back for 4 weeks and we never were able to go back to China. I still taught for 2 more years at university until my contract ended. And then I didn't renew it because I don't feel teaching online was fulfilling for me or very helpful for students. And I, I finished my contract. But when I came here, people, teachers, when COVID happened, everyone was a little bit in despair. What to do? We couldn't teach. Teaching online was terrible, especially the early days, and people just started asking me, why don't you organize some kind of workshops but online? And that's how I started learning about Zoom and about all these online things. And I organized the first mock-up of courses. And in the very first time I announced it, 250 people signed up. And as I did it for first 3 months, I realized that that type of workshop has a lot of advantages. First of all, people don't have to travel. They can watch the recording at their own time. They don't have to sacrifice their schedule, their time with children or families, their students. To be at the session. And also they always get a front row seat because when you have 200 people in the room and you try to show something at the piano, only few people can actually see it. But when I do it and I have my side camera next to me and I can show everything and they can do it on their side and I can give them a tip feedback, it made all the sense. And after I did it once, they said, "We don't want to stop. You have to continue." And for the first 3 years, I worked on creating a really, uh, deep, comprehensive curriculum for piano teachers. Starting from the first year of piano lessons, going step by step through every technique, through every activity, having them practice it, send me videos. We actually have a— for each level, we have a private Facebook group where teachers post their videos of doing that, and I comment, and other more experienced teachers comment. Now I have teachers who who are in their 5th year of these courses, and they became my helpers, and they help with new participants. And I have teachers from, uh, starting from probably 19-year-old up to 70-something years old. I have one teacher who's 85. Oh wow, from New Zealand.

Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Especially for those who are far away. I have a lot of teachers from Singapore, from Taiwan, from Japan, from Europe, many teachers, Australia. I just—

That's incredible. Wow, Irina. That speaks a volume about you. Yeah.

Continue grow— continues growing. I try to update the materials a little bit. And every month we have, with each level, we have a live Q&A, just like we have with you, when they ask me questions. They can show their students' videos. I can pinpoint what they need to work more, or what the actual cause of the trouble, the challenges, and how they need to change. So We do a book club where we read together some very important books. And we created such a great community of teachers from around the world. We are best friends. I had teachers from courses coming to Carmel just to see me. Uh, and we spent several days together. So it's, it's amazing. And, um, It's— I don't have really, uh, employees. The Goran Institute is basically me. But again, through the courses, I have several teachers who are helping me. They also participate in the courses. And for example, I already mentioned Juliana from Colombia, who was the first translator to Spanish. She, she has 2 music schools. She is director of 2 music schools in Colombia, and she trains now, she trains her, all her teachers with Tales. Uh, so that way I would say the word institute works when teachers grow, understand, and start training other teachers.

So far, we have explored the rich insights of Irina's teaching philosophy and some practical tips. Let's now see her impact in action. Joining us in the next segment is Willette Neumeyer, a veteran piano teacher and music studio owner from Saskatoon, Canada, and a proud graduate of the Goren Institute. She will share her personal experiences and the profound influence influence Irina's methods have had on her teaching career. All right, so thank you for joining us, Willette. Uh, the reason for including you to this episode is your affiliation as one of the many graduates of the Goren Institute and your advocacy for Irina's methodology, along with your usage of her Musical Journey series. And I'm so excited to get to hear about how Irina's method books and methodologies and courses at the Goren Institute have truly transformed and revolutionized your approach to piano teaching and impacted your students. So tell us about your current status as a piano teacher.

Well, I've always been a part-time piano teacher. I worked in the school system as a home economics teacher, but I never wanted to drop teaching music students. I've always loved it. And I started when I was 19. I had my ARCT level from— that's in Canada— for teaching, and I've always maintained a small studio. So I have a lot of experience, but always with a small group. I never had to deal with burnout of big groups. The largest studio I ever had was 28 students. But when I was working full-time outside the home, I had 3 to 6 students on average in a week because I would just work a couple evenings a week. So that prevented a lot of burnout. It was just a wonderful uplifting thing to do in the middle of the rest of my life. My training is from the Victoria Conservatory of Music. I had some really wonderful teachers there. I had some pedagogical training there for 2 years and it has, it always served me well, but I always felt I was missing something. There was something more that I just couldn't grasp. It wasn't part of my training. And that's when I discovered Arena.

Okay. But before we get into the challenging part, how many courses did you take? Did you do them all?

Arena started during COVID And she has 4 levels at the moment. And the 4th level, I'm in it for the 2nd year running because we create it together. We decide what we wish to explore and learn. We set the subject matter. We can post videos of things we are learning ourselves or our students. We're teaching our students advice. And it isn't just Irina that helps us. It's the whole group. We have this amalgamation of these incredible teachers from around the world who gather and we We're like hive mind. We, we contribute all these ideas. It's, it's a wonderful growth opportunity because as most piano teachers know, it can be a very isolating experience. So, and during COVID when we were so isolated, her course saved us. Her course saved us. We made friends from all over the world and we were there once a week online working hard and learning so much.

Wow. So, You know, let's get into how Irina's methodology at the Goren Institute impacted your piano teaching journey and, you know, changed the course, I'm sure, of your teaching career. So where were you as a piano teacher before meeting Irina, or before discovering her methods?

I've always enjoyed teaching. I didn't feel stuck, but I felt I was missing something, that it was limiting. I was doing a good job, but I knew there was more. And then as I discovered her name, came up through YouTube and everything, I was watching how she was working with these very young children, 4 years old, and I knew I would never dare to work with a 4-year-old. And I, I just didn't know how. I didn't have the tools for it. And the freedom and the emotional maturity with which they played was astonishing to me, and I wanted that for my students. I just wanted to be a teacher that could do that for my students. So, when COVID came and she was offering this course, this online course, I wrestled with it a bit. I wondered, well, am I going to do this? Am I going to pay for this and do this? And my rationale for it was if I even get 2 really good ideas that will help my students in the future, this will be worth it. And I had to laugh at myself because after the first session, I had written down 17 tools I could immediately apply to my teaching that I use to this day. Each one of the times we get together are packed full of ideas and different approaches and wisdom and encouragement, incredible encouragement. You no longer feel alone as a music teacher. And so how has it changed my teaching? I would definitely feel comfortable teaching young ones now. I will never teach a 5-finger approach again. I love her non-legato approach to playing and starting with the 3rd finger. It has allowed my students to develop a natural hand shape, free their wrists, their arm weight, and they're learning to really listen to their sound, not just the middle of the sound. They're learning to listen to the edge, the first edge of the sound and the last edge of the sound, like to train their ears to really listen. And what I love about her methodology is the quality of the music. They are short pieces for quite a while. So students get a lot of repertoire. They're learning a lot of music because it's short and they learn it quickly, probably 2 lessons, sometimes 3 lessons. And, um, they're— it's so pedagogically rich, all of the items she's picked, and they're so carefully scaffolded that, you know, the whole first book is Non Legato, and it's quality music. They have duets with it, or you can have recorded accompaniments with it. Students love it. Such variety. And it really trains my students for classical music. It is so rich emotionally. And it uses the whole imagination landscape of a child. So they are expressing a picture with their sound rather than just playing notes and feeling a rhythm. And so for me, it's just such a rich musical start for these young children. And I haven't found any other North American music methods that use this approach Before I started with Irina's course, I was using Music Tree, which I loved for the way it taught students to read music. It stayed out of positions and they— but it got into legato far too soon. So, um, yeah, this is just a much, much better beginning for my students. So, wow. And they're just more involved. Um, I see more enthusiasm. I, it's just, a more enriching way to teach. Hard to describe, but when you see the sparkle in your student's eyes or they start chuckling with you because their sad kitten did not sound very sad, it sounded mad, you know, and then they changed their whole body posture and their whole approach to the sound. And suddenly they've got this very sad kitten in this piece and it's just remarkable to see it. So.

Wow. Now you, uh, you just told us like specific things that changed the way you approach teaching young children. But overall, what stands out by, you know, taking her classes, courses, and that are different from others?

She's a master pedagogue, and I never got taught polyphony the way she teaches it. So things in the Baroque era, I'm looking at in a completely different way, teaching them in a completely different way. It's all about quality of sound, efficiency of movement, tension and release. It's just become so refined. It becomes very detailed as we progress further in the course. So it has changed my own playing, and I can help— like, I get transfer students. I— it's rare for me to get a student because I have such a small studio to get a student right from the beginning. I've only had one student since I've taken the course that I could start right from the beginning, but I transfer those skills and I use some of her slightly later level books with my transfer students so they get to review. And it's usually about hand alignment and gathering the hand into a more natural position. Those are, those are some of the things that I often have to remediate, as well as they're usually terrible at reading or they're not following the fingering, or they use the fingering to read the notes. And that doesn't work in her method. Because when you move from a 1 to a 2, you're not moving a second. You might be moving to a 3rd. And so they start to have to read the notes. And they become very detailed. They start paying attention to slurs, ends of slurs, and how do you finish a phrase? What is the sound you want? They start noticing when you're bumping a phrase. So it's all this refinement.

Yeah. So like, sounds like it's an ideal way of approaching young children teaching classical piano playing, but not in a strict way.

Oh no. Irina is so gentle and loving with her students. She never accept students based on talent. She will accept any student if they have the proper family support. If they have a proper piano, they're willing to help the young child practice, this sort of thing. And she'll take on transfer students as well, as long as they're really keen to be there, she will teach them. And she is so kind and she encourages all of us to be kind and respectful because we have to understand when a child is struggling or may possibly even misbehaving, what is really going on with that child. And it always, always comes from a place of respect. There's also authority there.

Wow. Yeah, that's a, like, a really ideal character as a teacher, right? Yeah. So tell us about Irina Goren herself. What qualities— you mentioned a little bit— what characters does she possess that make her an exceptional person and mentor to you?

She is very, very humble. She is open to discussion on anything. She is incredibly generous with her time and her knowledge. Um, I often find music teachers are very territorial and they want to hold their information close to their chest and they want their studio to excel and they've got students competing. And she is about helping everybody.

Bloom.

And she wants to help teachers who can help then those students. Her goal with teaching music is to create more empathic human beings who love music and who are self-expressive. That's her goal. And it, it really hurts her to see children struggling with tight hands and, and, you know, claws and, and sitting improperly and banging the piano and, you know, very percussive sound. She knows what children are capable of. So her generosity stands out, her kindness, her respectfulness, and she has this amazing ability to zero in on the one thing that will make the most impact in someone's playing. And I was lucky enough to visit her. She just welcomes us with open arms. We go to visit and she gives me some lessons and, um, In the hour and a half, I was playing Bach and Debussy and Mendelssohn, and every piece that I played for her, she would find 2 or 3 things that were so impactful that would raise it to the next level. It was remarkable.

Wow. You also get to take piano lessons from her.

Well, I did. I did. I went down one summer for a few days and learned from her and watched her teach. And you are able to have Zoom lessons with her online if you wish. I've only done one of those. It was very, very helpful. But yeah, no, she's so generous with her time. And again, humble. I can't recommend the course enough. If there are piano teachers out there who are feeling stale or stagnant or struggling, saying, how do I deal with certain issues? If they even just take the first level, it will solve so many problems. So many issues for all the future years of their beginner students. It is such dense, rich material that is easily applied. It's a huge learning curve, but it is so worth it. It will make their lessons so much more joyous and involving. They will get far better results with their students, greater involvement with their students. I can't recommend it enough. I think people hesitate sometimes because they either don't want to pay, and the courses are priced very reasonably, we can't believe what we get for the money, or they just feel like they can't keep up, their lives are so busy they can't keep up with the course. But everybody that's joined, some of them say, yes, I can't keep up, but this is so good. And everybody says they've just never encountered such a worthwhile course before in their lives.

Well, thank you again for joining this testimonial segment of Irina's episode. Now, what are the common struggles and challenges, or sometimes misconcept, misunderstanding you see from teachers?

Very individual. Individual. Uh, some teachers are just tired to be not happy with the results they see in their students. Some teachers are just curious. Some teachers struggle with certain techniques and they see how easy, for example, my students do that. They want to learn. It's, it's really hard to pinpoint. Everybody has their own reasons. Some teachers started using Tales books and they don't understand the real background, so they want to learn it even though they see results, but they wanted to go in depth. A lot of teachers, actually, those who started, who found Tales first, then they found my courses and they joined them.

So where can we sign up for your course?

So there is a website called thegoreninstitute.com, and there are all the levels. Teachers can sign up anytime to any level they want, uh, because some teachers might feel comfortable with beginners. But for example, in Level 2, uh, our main focus are techniques such as scales, etudes, some technical skills as Alberti bass Choosing the repertoire, the process of working on musical composition, um, supplemental, um, repertoire, pedagogical analysis, uh, starting to learn polyphony. Every course has 20 sessions and 10 Q&As. And Level 3 is more advanced, uh, We work on sonatinas and other larger forms. We work on little preludes by Bach, inventions and symphonies. And we work on Romanticism in music. We work on Schumann Album for the Young, My Kaparr, some other composers. So every level is a little bit like— they are I would say the most useful would be to go through all of them, but if teachers don't want to spend the whole year, even though I offer intensive options, or if they pay for the whole course, they can watch in one sitting everything and go to next level. I think it's helpful, but it's not mandatory.

I see.

Okay, they can join Level 2 or Level 3, then go to Level 1. The only thing, I have Level 4, which we call alumni level, and that level where teachers who went through all my courses can join, and that's where they have lots of benefits, like having free access to all the videos, to all the Q&As, been able to attend all the Q&As of our levels, but it's, it's like a cherry on the top. You have to go through 3 levels to be able to join.

Wow.

I have like 50 teachers in the alumni level.

Amazing. Wow. That's so fantastic. So that's, uh, thegoringinstitute.com, right?

Yes.

Okay, great. Now I know I have so many more questions, but it's almost, you know, toward the end of our conversation. So I have one thing that from our audience that who asked me to ask you, how should we as piano teachers enlist parents in facilitating regular practice for young beginners? So meaning, you know, parents, how should we encourage parents to participate in their practice?

It's a really good question. And unfortunately, there are a lot of arguments about importance of parental involvement, and some teachers don't even allow parents in their lessons. I think, and it's— I learned it from my pedagogy teacher, Victor Makarov, who also wrote a book about piano pedagogy. He had a little catch of a bird, uh, flying, and the child sitting on the bird with one wing being a teacher and the other wing being a parent. And the question is, if one wing is missing, will the bird fly? Will the child continue flying? Of course not, it will be a big fall. And on my initial interview, I, again, as I mentioned before, I don't choose a student or choose student by their abilities. I choose if I can work with parents and if they follow my instructions, my directions, and my main request, my main demand for parents to be involved. How involved? I explain them right away, but I also continue educating them through all the years of piano lessons. And the ways are through newsletters, through articles. There are tons of articles about importance, through little suggestions. I, at least twice a year, I, um, do piano, um, teacher-parent conference where I discuss with parents the progress. We look together at the schedule. We try to tweak things around to give a good time to piano practice, to make it a routine. Of course, it's very hard even when parents are present at the lesson. It's very hard to answer all their questions or tell them everything, especially in front of the child. So I do it without children. One-on-one, but they are also active participants in the lesson. If they become too much, and that happens, it also takes some training and education. I just tell them, the child gets distracted, so you need to sit a little bit farther and ask questions only after the lesson. Don't— I don't allow them to correct the child because I am the one to do that. If we pick on the child from two different sides, it's not gonna be good. So in the lesson, I'm the one who teaches. They observe and learn and record. I actually video record every lesson not only for the purpose to post it on YouTube, but it's for parents to watch the lesson, not for students. They, they will not be interested to look again at the lessons they, they were, but parents can always go back and see what was emphasized, what's important. Sometimes, you know, when parents are involved, the big challenge is, uh, arguments at home. You don't know. I used to tell my mom, how do you know? I'm taking lessons. You can't tell me what to do. And my teacher is not here, so I know better. But having the video, they can show them, look, your teacher told you to do that. And that really helps. I require parents to send me pictures, videos from their home practice so I can catch mistakes early. So they need to be aware of the process. And the thing, when children know that parents are involved, it truly helps them to feel support and they do something that is valuable. Because if child is dropped off at the lesson, then picked up, and then at home go practice, they feel grounded. They feel unprivileged. It's, it's punishment. And especially young children, they can't be alone. They don't feel the piano as a friend to communicate with, like grown-up people might feel, right? We need to go grow that relationship. We need to teach them. And if parents are there, if they support, if they encourage— not argue, not scream, but support and encourage— and make sure the schedule works so the child is not too tired when they practice the piano, when they go to the concert together and can discuss, those are the best ways. To work.

Well, thank you. Thank you for this, your wisdom, and I'm sure my audience members are really happy to hear that. Now, um, it's time for us to go. So for those who are listening and watching this episode, please check out irenagoren.com for her method books, uh, Tales of a Musical Journey series, and also please join her Facebook Facebook forum, Passionate Piano Teacher Community. And also you can check out her pedagogy courses, The Goren Institute, at thegoreninstitute.com. So Irina, thank you. This has been a really fun and inspiring conversation. But before I let you go, we have one more thing to do. It's called The Piano Pod Rapid Fire Questions. So this is part of the show where I ask, I get to ask fun questions to each guest. So here's a little twist: as silly as these questions may sound, they may reveal who truly you are. So get ready. Um, yeah, let's start. Yes, let's start with our fun, easy questions. Okay, so level 1, question number 1: what is your comfort food?

Ice cream.

Great, me too. Right, number 2: how do you like your coffee in the morning?

Black coffee with sugar.

Cats or dogs?

Um, I had a dog, so probably dogs.

Sunrise or sunset?

Sunset.

So this is going to be level 2. What skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had the chance to?

Dancing.

Oh, what is your word or words to live by?

Never give up.

Yes. What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Honesty.

Name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead.

My parents and my teachers.

Level 3, 2 more questions to go. Name 1 piece in your current playlist.

Oh, oh my goodness. You know, it's always been probably Rachmaninoff's Concerto No.

2. Of course, the best. Yes. Now, final question. Fill in the blank. Music is blank.

Music is a life.

Great. Beautiful. Thank you. So that concludes this episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Thank you, Irina, for joining my show today and sharing your stories and expertise. So for The Piano Pod listeners and viewers, please visit thegoraninstitute.com to learn more about Irina's organization and connect her on social media. All the links are listed in the show notes. Thank you to my wonderful audience and fans for tuning in today. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review it on whatever podcasting platform you use. Remember to hit the thumbs up button and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Follow The Piano Pod social media to get the latest piano news via Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn. I will see you for the next episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Bye everyone, and thank you so much, Irina.

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, and thank you for our audience for listening.

Thank you.