Season 4 Episode 5: Michelle Lynne -- Classical Pianist, Entrepreneur, and Co-Founder of The...

Welcome back to another episode of The Piano Pod. Here, tradition meets innovation. We bridge the timeless beauty of the piano with the dynamic pulse of today's world. I am your host, Yukimi Song. So during the summer, I was searching for some incredible talents in our industry for the new season, and after posting about it on social media to help us find guests to interview, I was able to create quite an incredible guest lineup for this season, thanks to our faithful listeners like you who took the time to fill out the nomination form. Well, one of my dear colleagues and good friends, a classical pianist and educator and a web designer for fellow musicians, Poki Huang also took his time to fill out the guest nomination form for the show, and today's guest was nominated by him. A huge shout out to Poki. Thank you. Hope you are listening. By the way, the guest nomination form is still up on our website. I will list the link in the description as well, but I would love to invite exceptionally talented artists and educators and entrepreneurs who are pioneers in our industry for captivating interviews. Whether you are recommending someone or it's a self-nomination, we sincerely welcome insights into why they or you would be an ideal fit for the show. No story is too small and every individual's voice is valuable. So get in touch with us by filling out the form. Look for the link in the show notes. Let me finally introduce today's guest. She is here to dive deep into a super timely topic. Classical musicians, and entrepreneurship. We'll also be exploring her program, The Fearless Artist Mastermind. Michelle Lin is an artist who enjoys a wide and varied career, whether on stage performing, delighting audiences across Europe, speaking at events, or giving lectures on entrepreneurship. Michelle is a Canadian pianist and singer entrepreneur and a lecturer of entrepreneurship. She co-founded the Fearless Artist Mastermind, a professional development program that guides clients to cultivate their careers and achieve financial stability. Her zone of genius is getting to the root of the real problems and asking hard questions in a kind way. Michelle is full of enthusiasm and optimism and believes that artists deserve to earn a good income and should never be their own ceilings. She holds positions as lecturer for music entrepreneurship at Conservatorium Maastricht and Codarts University for the Arts in Rotterdam. She graduated from University of Montreal with a master's and artist diploma in piano performance. Before starting this episode with Michelle Lin, I want to welcome all our first-timers to The Piano Pod. I'm a classical pianist and educator from New York City. Whether you're diving deep into a piano career, working professionally in the classical music scene, or simply have a passion for piano tunes, this podcast is your backstage pass to the fascinating piano world. I also want to welcome back and thank you for amazing TPP fans and faithful listeners for tuning in today. Please rate and review the show on your favorite podcasting platform because every rating review will help people find my show. So dear TPP fans and listeners, I can't wait to interview Michelle to discuss practical topics like how we make a decent living as musicians and learn what the Fearless Artist Mastermind is all about. Stick with me till the end of our conversation as it will lead to a more reflective discussion on how we trained classical musicians should keep our industry relevant and thriving in today's rapidly changing world. So here we go, dear friends. Please enjoy the show. You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century. Welcome, Michelle, to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. I know you're— yeah, thank you for being here. I know you're originally from Canada, but you're currently— you live in the Netherlands, right?

That's correct. Yeah.

What's like living in Europe? I, I'm sure it's nice to be able to travel around, you know, to different countries on the, in the, on the same continent by train.

Yeah. Living in Europe is a blast. I always say that when I grew up in Grand Prairie, Alberta, I had to drive 5 hours to get to the next city. And here, if I go anywhere within 5 hours, I'm either in Amsterdam or Paris or Brussels or Cologne or Italy or, you know, it's, it's it's, it's wild and I really love it.

Oh my gosh, it's a dream come true as an artist. So I checked out your Instagram account first of all and came across this post: being a musician is not only about being good at your instrument, it comes with a whole set of complicated situations that can arise and that maybe the people around you won't understand, which can make you feel alone and isolated. So there's a lot to unpack here, right? And then what is your thought on our unique situations and challenges that regular people, as in people outside of our industry, who can't really relate to? What do you think?

As creatives, we are a special breed of person, you know, and a lot of people who do the 9-to-5s, as you're saying, just maybe won't understand our lifestyle that, you know, if we have performances, it requires an enormous amount of unpaid preparation. Um, we do this because we are passionate. We do it because we love it. There also is a lot of, uh, fear that may come in that we're dealing with on a daily basis that people don't know about. And so when they ask uncomfortable questions, sometimes out of curiosity, oh, what do you do all day? Well, that can be a very triggering question for someone who's trying to figure out what to do all day in order to build a career. Or, you know, people say, oh, how do you pay your bills? And maybe you had a lower income month because you're freelancing. And so. People who maybe have a perfectly healthy intention of just getting to know you can unintentionally push all your buttons. And I think that's what I found early on when I was starting out trying to build my career, trying to figure out what life could look like if I had made the right decision not pursuing a doctorate in the University of Montreal where I did my master's degree. Um, I chose to come to Europe instead and, and then there, it just comes with a lot of questions. I mean, we're doing our best to figure it out as we go. And that's why I really believe in the importance of community and finding other creatives to surround yourself with because they understand what we're dealing with. They're not gonna ask you, do you really sit at the piano all day? Or how are you gonna make a living? Or, you know, and, and then you can actually talk about, uh, obstacles that you're facing and, and find solutions together.

Yeah. And I also checked out your website for the, you know, Fearless Artist Mastermind, which you co-founded with your colleague, and it says We help ambitious musicians earn more money and build a career they love. I love it. So straightforward.

Earn more money.

E-M-M. I wanted to scream because it's like really such a simple thing, but mystery for many musicians. And then as you said, you know, our lifestyle, like prepping time is not being paid. I feel like sometimes just by sitting in front of the piano or computer to create something, not getting paid, I feel like although I'm working hard, I feel so lazy because I am not earning money.

Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So debunking the stereotype of musician, you know, being poor or musician's life is so important. And also not just debunking the stereotype, but I think our mindset, I think that's more important toward our lifestyle, but also toward money.

So yeah, I love that you're saying this. I, I teach entrepreneurship at, um, at a university here, and I tell them almost every class, we are not starving artists, we are thriving artists. And you're going to learn to look for opportunities. You're going to be fearless. That's our, you know, our brand name, of course. But it means you put yourself out there without worrying about what people might think or how they're going to judge you. And you look for the opportunities and you pursue them, and you pick up the phone You don't wait for the phone to ring. And by doing that, by default, you will earn more money. So when we say we're going to help you earn more money, what we're really saying is we're going to help unlock the fear that you have and how you have been your own ceiling and how you have told yourself you're not good enough and how you haven't tried to even reach out to that person because you're scared that they're going to reject you. And we're going to coach you through that mindset, as you just said. And then once you get there and you start to believe that what you have is so valuable, you need to go out into the world and share it. Then you, you are the one seeking out people that you can work with. And of course, when you have a good fee and you set your prices, then money comes, right? It's not necessarily about the money, but we want to create a sustainable way for artists to live because without the money you can't pay your rent. So, you know, it's not that it's about the money thing, but it's just that we want to be able to continue to make good music and good art.

Yeah, but why not money, right? Why can we talk about— can we talk about money? Because it's very important to— we're not asking for billions of dollars, we're asking for decent income that can sustain a decent lifestyle.

I've learned to kind of temper my response because I know people get offended so easily about this thing, so I'm like, well, you know, we're not, we're not saying you have to see it as a business, it's not for profit, you know, but it is, of course, that yes, we deserve to earn just as much as any other working professional does.

Yeah, sure, right? So I would love to know your program, the business. So the, the Fearless Artist Mastermind, I love the name and it's very straightforward. So what is it? And then when did you start?

Yes, uh, The Fearless Artist began in 2020, one month before lockdown. We had no idea what was coming and ended up launching this online virtual, essentially professional development for classical musicians. So we work with our clients in a variety of ways, either through our membership, which is group calls, group coaching, and a community. Uh, we also do shorter programs, a 6-week program called, uh, 6-Week Sprint. And that's when you have something that you want to do, need to do, but you've been putting it off because you're overwhelmed and busy with everything else. So it's like, I need to write this press release or this grant or release this album or prepare this recording, and it's just not happening because I'm too busy. A lot of our clients have ended up building their website, for example, in those 6 weeks. And then we do a longer, uh, version of that called the Mastermind, which is 4 months of just giving people structure. I think a lot of freelancers lack structure and having that accountability accountability and checking in with people and saying, this is where I'm at and this is where I'm going. And it just really provides a framework for creatives. So through that, we've worked with hundreds of clients all over the world in the last 3 years and just continue to develop these online sessions, which have, I think, been a wealth of encouragement, support, learning, and just like a very healthy community, I would say.

So what exactly is the mission? Maybe you're, I'm repeating the question, but I want to know. What was missing from the industry that made you start the business?

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, for me, when I finished my studies, I had learned how to play the piano really well, and I had learned history and, uh, harmony and how to write counterpoint. But no one ever said, uh, here's how to find students and here's how to pitch for a concert and here's how to create an online, uh, digital space where people could find you and be interested. And like, I knew I had to have a headshot and bio, but it was always a little bit like, ooh, that ick feeling of like, oh, I don't want people to judge me and I don't want to be seen. And I don't wanna be so vulnerable and why do we have to be in the spotlight? And you know, I'd rather just do my thing and quickly learn that if you wanna build a career, that's just not gonna work. So Deanna is my co-founder, as you mentioned, she studied at Juilliard and was living in Paris for 10 years. And, um, we just realized there's so much out there that musicians don't know how to do. We were not taught this in school. We're sitting around waiting for the phone to ring. So we were like, we need something to help teach people how to take initiative. And, uh, through that we had, uh, done a mastermind with some of her Juilliard colleagues, loved the concept. And we, I had had some experience facilitating already, so we just thought, let's see what happens. We'll put out an offer. And I made one Instagram post and we had 10 signups like right away. People were just like, there was like a need for this. They were like, yes, get me into a community where I can just be accountable to someone and talk through what I'm going through. Because again, as we started this, alcohol, most people don't understand us. You need people who understand you. So from there, it's really just built and developed. Yeah.

And then also interesting because you're, you are from, not from Europe, but you live in Europe. And then also your partner, Diane or Diana?

Diana. Yes.

Diana. I'm sorry. Diana is also from the United States.

Yes. She's now relocated to Minnesota where she's from, but she was over here for 10 years.

Yeah. Oh, so your partner is not in Europe.

She just moved 3 months ago, so we're still adjusting to time zone differences and, you know, all that great stuff. But yeah, she's just moved back.

Wow. But the starting point was, you know, you both are foreigners in Europe, and so probably that contributed, that perspective contributed to the business or the reason of starting the business, you think?

Yeah, we definitely connected because of our shared expat, common, you know, we met, uh, because I'd went to Paris to audition to play in her quartet. And from there we just really connected. And I think as an expat, when you find another expat over in Europe, definitely you're, you're more likely to become friends. And just because we understand each other culturally, we just instantly had a lot in common. So I think that definitely contributed. A lot of our client base is in US, Canada, but additionally many have come from Europe as well because this, this entrepreneurial mindset is growing and developing, I think rapidly over in Europe now too. Especially in the Netherlands. You know, I'm teaching this course now at two different institutions, and I think that that's a really great sign that it's starting. The tide is turning and good things are coming.

Wow. You know, I just didn't realize. I picture myself, you know, being in Europe because I studied there for once, two summers, actually Austria. And it feels like being a classical musician, musicians being very respected in the community, in the country. And then I don't know about Canada, but, you know, in the United States, there's the issue with the healthcare. I mean, every single thing you do, you have to earn. It's not— the government isn't— oh, there's grants and everything, but it's very difficult to get, right? And so, but in my imagination, in my impression was that in Europe, it's so much easier to live as a classical musician or freelance musicians, right?

But yeah, depending on where you live, I know in France they have, um, an, a program for artists where as long as you show that you have a certain amount of, they call them cachets, uh, so gigs, uh, per year, you apply for this program and you show that you have work, then they will subsidize days that you don't have any work so that you have like consistent income coming in. And some of my friends applied for that. It takes a time to build up your portfolio just to demonstrate that you're at that certain level. Um, but it is there. And then, um, in the Netherlands there's definitely, uh, subsidies for low income and housing subsidies and healthcare subsidies, cuz we pay for healthcare here. It's quite expensive. And then I think that really helped me in the beginning to be able to establish myself and start to figure out how to do it while building my teaching studio. I taught Canova. 7 or 8 years full-time for income stability while pursuing other projects so that I knew that I could pay my bills because you need to be able to figure out the baseline.

Right, right, right. But so that's why I was surprised because with all these, you know, uh, support that you, you are able to receive from the government, but still then people are now more asking for the lifestyle of entrepreneurship. Like, uh, they want to learn in Europe too.

So yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's about creating opportunities that fulfill you, intrinsic satisfaction, right? So I mean, a lot of people are looking for that fulfilling career, and I think that's why we chose art in the first place, because you have a passion and you want to connect to something deeper. So, um, yeah, I can't speak for every country because I only have experience with the Netherlands and France, but, um, I think definitely it would be, uh, more doable here than um, maybe in the States, how your situation is there.

Let's talk about your business itself. You told me about the 6 weeks and also other group sessions as well. So can you tell us, walk us through in details? So do you also have solo coaching as well?

Or— Yes, we do have one-on-one coaching. Um, I have a few clients on one-on-one, and I really love that because then we can go really deep and say, you know, what is it that you're going after? Really get clear on goals. Look at any possible opportunities that you have and how to— I think, you know, time management is one thing, but energy management is a whole other ballgame when you're at a certain level of, of success. Um, because then the opportunities are coming in and you have to start to make decisions. Am I going to say yes to everything because I'm used to saying yes to everything because I really needed the money? Or am I going to start to say no to things that don't interest me as much in order to make space that I can say yes, you know, and then there's a certain level of risk involved in that. So I think that's where coaching can be really helpful cuz you have someone on the outside giving you perspective and also just helping you clarify what you're actually going after. Um, and then we have our membership, as I mentioned, I think we have, uh, 15 members right now currently, and we meet twice a month on a group call and discuss different issues. We usually have a coaching exercise that we walk people through, whether it's setting your next 2 weeks to look like your ideal 2 weeks, or, uh, you know, what are you struggling with? Any discussion that might arise. Um, and then people have individual hot seat where they can bring a very specific problem or obstacle and share that. So, you know, some, all sorts of things come up, you know, relational difficulties in an orchestra or how to set your fees or finding more students or getting stuck in a certain, um, tech area, not knowing how to start a podcast. I mean, any, anything that can come up and then the group kind of jumps in and helps steer that person. Also, a lot of emotional stuff will come up too, you know, dealing with difficult colleagues or. Finding healthy routines while traveling has come up recently as well. That was a good one. And then it's just really interesting. I think you learn so much hearing people discuss topics like this that can also benefit you.

Yeah, but it's so nice that you're providing the platform because usually, like I said before, you feel very isolated from the rest of the world. That's, uh, professionally in many ways, especially, especially as a pianist, right? Because We are not part of any group, any orchestra, any chamber. Well, sometimes chamber, but it's sometimes it's temporary thing. And mainly we are really focused on our instruments. And so, you know, having to have that platform, be part of it, and then feel like you're not alone.

That's very important. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I am definitely a people person. And when I was in University of Montreal, you know, we would all practice on the same floor. We would have lunch together. We would chat in the hallways. So you have your people, you've got your bubble, you've got your, your, your crew. And then to leave that all at once, it was a shock to the system, you know, and it was kind of devastating to me personally as a very extroverted person. So you need that, like, walk down the hallway and you say hi to everybody kind of thing. And so this is a virtual way to do that. And I always leave the calls feeling really refreshed and like, okay, I'm so glad we got to connect with these wonderful artists.

So how exactly are you helping fellow musicians?

Um, you are. Maybe mentioned a little bit, but we do teach and give information, but we're much more about execution in The Fearless Artist. We are way more interested in making sure everyone leaves with something very specific that they're going to take action on, like today, because I think a lot of musicians are sitting on a wealth of information. They actually do know what to do, but there's some reason underneath why they haven't gotten started on it, whether it's overwhelm, not knowing where to start, or fear. So I would much rather that you glean one thing from a workshop with us and that you go put it into practice than if you have like a beautiful PDF slide that gets lost in your computer that you never look at again, right? So, um, also with my classes, this is really the approach that I'm taking. I've learned to give them less information and ask them way more questions. Where are you at? What's helpful for you right now? Where are you thinking about this? And I think that's what we really do with our coaching is asking people, what specifically are you struggling with? Because we can talk all day about content strategies and finding more followers and getting fans and starting a concert series. But unless we know why you're not taking action on that, it doesn't matter how much to-do lists we create for you, you know, you're still going to be stuck. So I think that's really something that sets us apart.

That's, that's really great to know. And I think usually it really comes from the fear, but also not knowing who you really are sometimes.

Or yeah, definitely, like what sets you apart as an artist, you know? And we're kind of all taught you need this unique selling point, and that kept me paralyzed for years. I'm like, oh no, I need to think of something special about me. Like, what is this special something? And then finally I realized, and now I'm teaching this to my classes, it's like, you are already unique. You already have strengths and skills and passions that no one else has. So if you can discover what's already inside of you and then develop it and pursue it and craft it and then combine it with your passion at your instrument instantly set yourself apart in the market and you'll discover a wealth of opportunities that fit that role. Um, for example, you have your podcast. I've used you as an example in my class before, you know, you're a pianist who's a podcaster. Now you're not fighting against 5,000 other pianists. You're differentiating yourself immediately by saying, this is what I do. And this is how many people you've been able to connect with because of your podcast. So it's a great example of how when we choose something and find a problem in the market and step into that as a solution, instantly find our place.

Oh my goodness. I just feel like I, I'm empowered by your encouragement. I needed to hear that. You know, no matter how many times, you know, you try to encourage yourself, sometimes doing these kind of work is usually by yourself and it's like one episode at a time. And as much as we believe in delayed gratification, but we're human. So We want to see instant gratification as well.

So I get that. I mean, it's very hard, you know, the drop in the ocean and to say, okay, one more drop today, but it is that consistency over time that people start to recognize who we are, what we stand for, talking about the same subjects and over and over until the message gets out there. You know, there are people who need to hear this.

I want to really find out how we can earn a decent income. What's your advice? I think I, I see, I saw somewhere, uh, you mentioned that diversifying our income. So can you elaborate on that?

Yeah, it's, um, something we like to call a portfolio career. So just as when you have an investment portfolio, you're investing in different stocks and different, you know, gold and, and whatever. It's the same idea for your income. Can you think of or create 5 income streams for yourself? And when I first heard this concept, it was like, whoa, like you just instantly, you feel your mind kind of expand. And so at the time, all of my income came from, you know, I was accompanying in a singing studio. Okay. That's a few hours a week. Then I had a few piano students. Okay. Then I had some gigs, uh, background gigs, and then I had concerts, which I separated in my head. And then I was, I think I was trying to figure out the fifth one, like, okay, what else can I do? Oh, then I started teaching singing lessons. Okay. Well, there are 5 streams of income, so. You know, just by starting to look for it, trains your brain to look for possibilities. Then there can be things like, you know, renting out a room in your apartment as an Airbnb. Well, that's a couple hundred a month. Or then you realize that you know multiple languages and that there's someone who needs translation help, or you're really good at tutoring math to high school kids for a few hours a week, or you can teach ESL online, or, you know, we really encourage our clients looking at your strengths and skills because we're creatives. You have so many things that you're good at. Is there a way to earn from that? And then things like, you know, buying, putting a little bit aside every month into stocks. If you can do that and you start young enough, uh, well, just start now anyway, if even if you're not young enough, but by the time you're 67, that compound interest is going to be very much on your side. And then for those of us who are creatives, you know, we don't have pensions, for example, you know, my parents are always so worried about my pension. Then it's like, well, don't worry because when I'm 67, if the compound interest, you know, we can look historically at the stock market. It'll be, it'll be there. Just lock it away. Don't touch it. A few, like $100 a month or whatever it is that you can put aside now. So I'm teaching this to my students too. I'm like, you guys are 20, get in on this because that, that's a way to set yourself up future you, you know, I think this portfolio career is also about looking at protecting and taking care of the future version of you and an artist. We learn scarcity mindsets, like we're grabbing at our pennies and we're looking at right now and we can't think ahead and we don't know how to plan for long term. And I think that also comes from a lot of artists who do different programs every year. Well, I'm going to do a master's here, then I'm going to apply to this school. I'm constantly moving around. I'm jumping from teacher to teacher. And so we never learned to really settle and put in roots and grow. And that was also, even after I chose to live in Europe, I was still kind of thinking, well, you know, I don't know how long I'm going to be here. And then it just prevents you from really grounding yourself. So yeah, all of those things combined, I think. And, and so then, for example, it, when you look at your other strengths and skills, like, you know, I realized quickly leadership was something that I, uh, had as well as speaking. So then workshop facilitation, I actually started in a different industry doing a few hours in this and then quickly realized it was something I enjoyed. So then changing it and bringing it into my music world just seemed very natural. And now we have a whole business around it. So giving artists the possibility and permission to look outside of their immediate focus. And seeing how money can be coming in. It's like giving four legs to your table, provides stability. And there is no shame in earning money outside of music. And I think it's smart to earn money outside of music and it has nothing to do with your artistic status.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, um, there's like, um, sort of, uh, misunderstanding of the word business. And, uh, every time I talk to my colleague, some colleagues and say, you know, they use the word business. Oh, and then they said, oh, I don't do business, I'm an artist. They try to separate, right? So, but then I said to them, the word business is, it's just a simple financial transaction. You provide certain service, whether that is a teaching or performing, and then in return you get paid for. That's a business transaction. So I'm not saying, I'm not trying to sound like a snake oil businessman here, but You know what I mean? So that's actually the start, I think, to demystify or debunking that sort of mindset.

Yeah. You said at the beginning, like getting rid of these mindsets that don't help us. I mean, I think the connotation behind that is that if you think about art as a business, then you're taking away from just doing art because it's something that the world needs and it's human and it's about connection and all of those things are still true and we would like to continue being able to do them. So therefore it would be nice if we could pay our rent and live. So, I mean, it's kind of nice to just have both in mind. And I think it doesn't have anything to do with your intention over why you're practicing. And we are still practicing very long unpaid hours. So, you know, there you go.

You are also teaching this entrepreneurship at university currently in, uh, in the Netherlands.

Yeah, two conservatories in the Netherlands.

Yes. Finally, I wish I learned this when I was in graduate school because nobody taught me about how the real life is, does look like as an artist, right? Freelance. Do you teach throughout the semester? I don't know if, if the semester terminology, semester makes sense to you in Europe, but yeah, our, um, the two conservatories have the curriculum set up differently.

So one of them just has 16 lessons and we just kind of go weekly through a curriculum that we've created, uh, with 7 pillars. The pillars include things like marketing, setting your fees, negotiating freelance basics, um, IP, copyright, which is, you know, maybe you don't touch on so much for classical musicians, but we also have pop and jazz students that are being taught. Um, and then we have a mindset pillar, which is of course extremely important. And then, you know, kind of the entrepreneurship mindset, like how do you start thinking like this? How do you start being someone who's training yourself to think in opportunities and not just say everything that's going to go wrong?

That's very impressive. And so there is a sort of lectures, but also there are some practical exercises that you provide throughout the semester. Yeah.

I mean, as I shared about the coaching, I really take the same approach with teaching the students. So we have assignments that they need to do, but kind of in the class, I'm talking to them. I'm asking questions. We're having discussions and I'm also learning from them, you know, hearing from how things are on their end and if they are where they are at in their mindset. And I'm finding very happily that a lot of them are further ahead than our generation was. So they are like, well, yeah, of course a musician has to be an entrepreneur. Like, of course we need to think about how we're going to earn a living. And, and we're like, okay, awesome. Like, keep that. Oh, that's, that's great.

So what's the reaction from students by taking your class?

I just finished yesterday an intense 2 weeks, uh, Basic Course it's called, and it just finished on a really high positive note. I was just buzzing when I left because At the beginning, they may be unsure, but what I really love to do is I have a whole list of what I call limiting beliefs. And I'm like, you might be thinking, dot, dot, dot. I don't have time for this. I need to practice. I'll figure this out when I'm done school. I'm not a business person. I'm a musician. I don't like putting myself in front of people and I'm uncomfortable. I hate social media because it's cringey, or I compare myself. You know, I've got this whole list of things and then I say, okay, who believes anything on this slide? And then of course, like All the hands go up and then we talk about it and we say, okay, why do you think that? So it's much more than me telling them like, you shouldn't think like this. It's saying like, okay, this is how also I thought for a long time. Some things I still struggle with. Then we talk about, you know, fixed growth mindset. Fixed mindset is that like all or nothing, black or white, right or wrong, good or bad, not good enough. That's part of a fixed mindset. Like an entrepreneur needs a growth mindset because you're going to have to look at there's room at the table for everyone. I don't need to get a piece of this pie. I'm gonna bake my own pie and I'm gonna find a place in the market that suits my skills and strengths. And so then when I start kind of giving them these mindset shifts, you can see their eyes light up. And then we talk about their individual strengths and skills. What are you good at? What interests you? We bring up the concept of ikigai, uh, fulfillment of purpose. Um, then I get them to share in the class and, you know, then they're just kind of bouncing off each other because again, that community aspect, community learning, I think is so crucial. And then the classes can be really fun because now we're just having a conversation about how exciting your life could look like as an artist and how you're going to be able to sustain that and being around people who understand you. And I think it's really this feeling of connection and belonging.

Wow, thank you so much.

Yeah, I mean, you have to ask them. I mean, maybe this is just my impression, you know, you can ask them on the feedback form, did you actually like your class? I don't know. I should let them talk for themselves, but yeah, maybe that's the next step.

Like, you know, asking for what is a Google Form and yeah, exactly. But that's great. But how did you get into this teaching at university? Was the university open to this idea?

They actually had the position open up, so they had the course running for a few years already, but to my understanding, it was just very basic in the sense that they were teaching taxes and how to send invoices. So the course had a little bit of a bad reputation as being just super dry and boring. And then, um, my current colleague, uh, started building a different curriculum. Uh, she's in marketing for an opera studio in Spain. So then she brought in a lot of curriculum around marketing and branding and, you know, Seth Godin's work on The Purple Cow, for example, and, uh, started teaching that. And then it just became bigger than a one-person job. So they opened up the position and I had two people send it to me and said, this is you, apply. And I, I was so excited. I would like, I was teaching a piano lesson and I just like ran out and I was on the phone and with someone who had called me and I was like, what? I can't believe that the job's open. And, uh, I fear The Fearless Artist had been running for about a year. So with that in mind, I could just show them, look, like we, this is our work with our clients. And then it was just a really good fit for both of us.

Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. I, I would love to sign up for your Uni class.

Yeah, we used to teach exclusively online, and then I could just let you sit in on the Teams call.

Yeah, I mean, I would love that. And then I hear that there are some classes or course open up at, you know, higher education here, like music institutions, like, I don't know, Juilliard, or I don't know about MSM, about entrepreneurship or music business.

I actually was just on Chris's podcast Honesty Pill. Maybe you know him, he's in LA, and I saw he was giving a guest lecture at Juilliard in their entrepreneurship class. So I know that there's something going on there.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's time, but also having to have this internet access to, uh, especially Instagram, Facebook, that sort of thing, allowing us to be more independent, right? Uh, you don't have to have an agent to represent you. You can be your own agency.

And yeah, yeah, actually you might be familiar with Bernhard Karras. He's, um, over here in Vienna, but he has an entire— his business is called Be Your Own Manager, and he's got great courses for musicians. Um, he actually taught the class that I teach at now too, done a workshop for us. And he's really talking about how to differentiate yourself as an artist and pursuing what you love and building a career that you love. And he's got a great book, and it outlines everything that you should be taking care of on the business of music. So I really recommend that.

Now I'm curious to know you as a musician. You're not only a classical pianist but also a singer too. And I watched the videos playing traditional piano repertoire, like Mendelssohn and other pieces, but also I've listened to your original songs on Spotify. So Did you grow up in a musical family?

Yes, definitely I did. They would not say that I did, but I did. My dad played drums in a country band for 10 years, and my mom started me at the piano when I was 4, and my dad and I were always singing. Um, so music was always on in the home, and I, I grew up like— I can sing every lyric to every country song in the '90s. Um, and then just years and years of doing music festivals and performances and recitals, and I had a great teacher that started me, very encouraging. Wonderful. And then she handed me off to someone who was more advanced, who, who pushed me and, and got me going into this, you know, more intense version of piano playing that we both know. And, uh, yeah, from there it just continued. But I also took singing lessons, classical singing, until I was 14. But I remember when I was young, I told my mom I wanted to be a country singer when I grew up. So it's always been in me to be this, you know, kind of other genre singer. And so it's coming out now.

Oh, that's sweet. It's that I like the contrast between the classical music and the country songs, but country music as in, I don't know if, is it a country music that I'm thinking of?

Oh, like typical North, like American country music.

Totally. Yeah. Oh yeah.

Wow.

Yeah. Okay.

I mean, no, I'm writing songs that are more in like a contemporary pop style, I would say, but just knowing that that was my upbringing, it's just fun to think back now.

Yeah, that is very interesting. But somehow, you know, you are not really separating your identity like that. You're trying to merge everything together because that's who you are, no?

Yeah, well, that's actually like a recent discovery because I think in the past I have tried to hide like, oh, my singing side, I've just kind of pushed it to the side, or it's like this other thing that I do. And now I'm learning much more like, if we're going to talk about what makes you stand out, you know, it's not every pianist who can also sing and play. So that's something that that's an individual thing and I love to do. So I'm learning to embrace it. I'm learning to embrace, even though it's a different genre and you have all of these limiting beliefs about what would people think, you know, if she's doing pop songs. So I've learned to kind of let go of all of that and just be like, you know what, this is giving me a lot of joy and I want to pursue this as well. Yeah, coming against a lot of mindset things or, or just hangups we get stuck on, you know. But in the end, I'm, yeah, I'm learning to let go of all that.

I think, uh, inclusion in, um, or in diversifying literature in piano has become big. And as you mentioned, uh, I interviewed Asid at The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with me in the, in the previous episodes. And then really diversifying the literature is so big, and I really love that. So I think it makes sense that now you can put you in classical music world, right? Instead of just playing good old white male, you know, composers. Dead white guys. Yeah, right, right.

Yeah, definitely. No, I loved that episode with A Seat at the Piano, and I think the work is really important to show what else is available. I was at a Piano Portugal, Piano Festival in Portugal, and there was a, I think a Chinese girl playing a piece from China that I'd never heard that was just fabulous. And then you're like, what is that? Like, I've never, nobody knows these things. It was a great piece. I mean, this music deserves to be heard and it deserves a platform. So it's great when we can bring in other, other things. And also it just feeds our creative soul to hear something outside the box, as you're saying. If we're gonna learn how to think like that, then we also need to listen to as many different styles as we can. You know, that's something my vocal coach really encourages me to do. He'll make me listen to all sorts of stuff just to kind of fill your tank and to give you new ideas and new sounds and new impressions so we're not always in the same vein. And I think that will enrich our classical interpretations.

What do you offer as a performing artist? Like, do you just play solo piano pieces, or do you also sometimes do your country singing during the concert, especially in Europe? I'm very curious to know.

What I can really offer audiences is I really like to talk to the audience. I like to be in connection with them. I'm playing for Candelae concerts now, and that's a space where I can take time between the pieces and really share some thoughts or stories or about the music or something funny that happened to me, or, and just to kind of engage the audience that way and get them maybe to laugh or to listen in a different way. And then at the end, I'm finding a huge response of emotion that people will come up to me and they'll, they'll share stories with me about their families or people who have passed or difficult things that they've gone through. Or they'll tell me, you know, I came in here, I had a really rough few weeks and this has really helped me. And I was very astounded at the level of intimacy that people share with me also in Instagram messages afterwards. But then I realized, I think it's because I, from the piano, share something about me with them. So that kind of creates a space where they feel that there's an openness there. And so Candlelight is much more in like kind of a pop style. So there I have sang some of my own songs as an encore, for example, at the end. But in my strictly classical concerts, I run a series over here, Chamber Music Series. I'm learning how to kind of maybe approach the audience like that too, where I'm going to be more personal with them. But I still feel myself snap back into this very strict version of me where I'm like, I walk on stage and I have to be serious, I'm gonna bow. And like, now I'm starting to open up a little bit more as I get more comfortable. But again, you don't want to— like, you know where the lines are and you don't want to bend the lines too much because you want to be accepted by everyone in your genre and your industry, and you want to show that you belong. And so it's again coming against all of these things that we've learned to be true. And then, yeah, it's, it's an interesting journey, I think.

Yeah, it is. And, uh, I think a lot of, uh, some, some artists that I've interviewed, they started doing that talk and tried to engage with audience with not just the music, but the way they present the music. So they would have a microphone on the stage and then talk to the audience, that sort of thing. But when you do, what do you share? Do you talk about the piece you're about to play or is it more thematic or?

Yeah. So it depends what program I'm playing. So actually, for example, I just did a concert yesterday at Day of the Piano, it was called, and I played a variety of Chopin, Ravel, Beethoven, and then Gabriel Dupont, a French composer, and then some Hans Zimmer at the end. So there I really went deep into the music and I explained, you know, there's a Hans Zimmer piece. Where it starts with the marimba and then it comes in with the electric cello and then the electric violin. And then layer upon layer, he creates this soundscape and then a choir comes in. And then I say, you know, I'm happy to tell you all that the choir part will be played by you today. So everybody laughs, you know, and just kind of relaxes. They don't sing, but, and then, and then I play this piece for them. And so I've kind of explained to them, I think it's like teaching the audience how to actively listen is what I would say. So then with the, you know, the Ravel. I played Pavan, Paul Rénault fondé-fils, and I explained the, you know, the layers of sound that he's using as well as the colors. And I related that to an impressionist palette of color that you visually see. Well, now you're about to listen to that. So listen for how the sounds are different. And then I talked about how my hand has to touch the keys in a different way to create different sounds. And I just kind of went more deep because it was supposed to be more of a detailed explanation concert. It was like an outreach event. Um, but if I'm playing like a Candlelight show, you know, I do Coldplay for them a lot. So then I just share about the lyrics or about the story behind the song or why Fix You, Chris Martin wrote that when Gwyneth Paltrow's dad died, and that was his way to support her. So I share that and then I read some of the lyrics and then the audience is like, oh, we get why. I think if you can tell the audience why about the music, they instantly have this deeper connection to it. And then, you know, the one story that I love to tell is when I play a Ludovico Einaudi program, and I once had a a man come up to me at the end and he said, there are two pieces in the world that make me cry. And one of them is this piece by Inaudi. Do you know it? And I was like, yeah, I know it. I can play it for you. And I said, why does it make you cry? And he said, well, I'm dreaming of the day that I will walk my daughter down the aisle to this piece. I said, oh, that's so beautiful. Congratulations. When's the big day? He said, oh, she's 12.

I thought that was so funny.

And now I've told that story, I don't know, 50 times. So I'm just thinking if this poor guy ever knew, like, you have to be very careful what you tell me now, cuz I might tell the stage. So I don't know, just anything to make the audience kind of laugh. And then that's what they remember, you know, they'll say, oh, I love that piece about the dad and the daughter. And what was it again? And I'm gonna go home and listen to it. And then you're just seeing how when we can connect on a human level, the music just makes much more sense and they get it.

Music comes alive, right?

Yeah.

I know. I know. So you mentioned Coldplay. So yeah, do you, do you do piano arrangement of that?

Yeah, so I have an entire program for Coldplay that we do. I think they do them in the States as well, but in Candlelight. So Candlelight is a concert series and they put thousands of candles surrounding you on stage and they book these insanely beautiful venues. And so I have 8 different programs for them that I play, and one of them is Coldplay.

Wow. And that's your arrangement?

I found a bunch of the scores that were printed and then I just kind of go with my inspiration as I'm feeling, you know, some I'm like, I need more octaves here, I need more bass, so I just— yeah.

Oh wow, that is cool. Yeah, I need to think about that kind of, uh, transcriptions too. Yeah, people can relate to you better that way. Yeah, even my students are playing more pop songs but in a nice arrangement, nice piano transcriptions. Yeah, yeah.

So I guess you could say it's like classically arranged Coldplay is what I'm playing for these concerts and, uh, and It just goes really well. It's in a very aesthetic, atmospheric, kind of emotional setting.

So hey there, TPP family! The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song is now into our fourth season, and it's all thanks to you. Since 2020, you've been with my journey with the TPP, exploring this burning question: how do we make classical music resonate with today's audience in fresh and captivating ways? Four years in, and the journey has been is nothing short of magical. The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song isn't just a podcast; it's a movement, a space where pianists, composers, and educators brainstorm, debate, and reimagine classical music's place in our fast-paced world. We're together on a mission to ensure classical music doesn't just survive but thrives in our modern age. But here's the thing: to keep bringing you these insightful biweekly to do so, I need your help. Every bit of support goes into the podcast's essentials, from hosting to high-quality recording tech and the countless hours behind the scenes. So, do you want to be part of this journey? Click the PayPal link in the show notes or head to thepianopod.com to donate. And as a token of appreciation, I will personally mail you The Piano Pod's snazzy logo sticker. Sticker. So hit the subscribe button, spread the word, and let's continue our mission and journey as classical musicians. Now let's continue with the show. You released several solos on Spotify. I found them, and then one was Empty Promises, another one is Let Me Heal, and I'm Here. So can we talk about that a little bit? What are those songs? These are original songs, right?

Yeah, definitely. So most of us went through a terrible time in 2020, and mine was especially difficult personally. So music was just, it was the only way that I was knowing how to kind of process what I was going through and releasing all of the emotion, grief inside. So I, I sat down at the piano and I just, my writing process is finding some chords and maybe singing a melody over it. The words usually come later, and then I hit, you know, voice record on my phone and I'll get a little segment and then I'll forget about it for like 5 months and then I'll get something else and I'll piece it together and. And then I met a producer and I always knew that I wanted to kind of release songs, but I was, you know, stuck in a lot of fear and perfectionism. But I met my producer and he's like, show me your stuff. Like, what do you have? And so I gave him a few pieces and he's like, oh, this is great. We can work with this. And then he kind of just put his magic touch on things and then we worked together in the studio and, and then I learned, you know, I have a great vocal coach. I learned how to record and it was like a whole new world for me. This other side, you know, it's like you're a musician your entire life and you actually know nothing about what it takes to record and distribute a single. So I had to learn that cool side, which is what we teach to, like, you know, the pop students. So now I'm trying to teach the class as well in case they ever want to, like, release their own music. And, uh, I've released, uh, 4 songs. I have one coming out this Friday, it's the last single, and then I'm going to be recording a few piano pieces to add to kind of make my first album a compilation of my 2 genres. Like, here's the classical and pop version of me, and I don't have to choose because we're outside of the box artists. We're not, we're not stuck anymore.

Well, tell me about the song, the newest one that's coming up this Friday.

Yeah, I'm so excited about this one. It's called In the In Between, and it's that season of your life where you've made it out of the valley and the worst is over, but you still don't know where you're going and you don't have any answers yet, but you're okay. And you have a lot of trust, but you just really wish that you could know for sure. But it's just kind of about accepting that It's not there yet. I think there's like, you know, maybe it's the American culture of like, everything's great, put a smile on, you're gonna be fine. You know, you fall over and it's like, are you okay? Um, and I heard, you know, the Russian equivalent of when you fall over, somebody says, are you hurt? Right? But we're all just like, you're fine, you're fine. You're not bleeding. You're fine. And so I had people telling me that, you know, you're fine. Don't worry about it. You're gonna get through this. And it's like, no, I'm not fine. And I need someone to like, I need to be okay in saying this is where I am and I'm gonna be really honest. And I'm not going to pretend that I'm not bleeding. And so then, uh, in between is just saying like, I don't have the answers. And I— people say, what are you gonna do? Where are you gonna move? Where are you gonna go? What's happening? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. Like, I'm doing my best. That's what I can tell you. And I'm, I'm doing my best to, to steward everything that I've been given and to take good opportunities and to manage myself well. But I know that I have faults and I know I have weaknesses, and I'm just gonna accept myself in this weakness and process and who I am today. So I think the song has a lot of self-acceptance themes in it as well as, and, um, letting go of this, I have to keep this perfect image up all the time. It's like, no, I don't. I can't. It would, it'll break me.

Thank you for really being so open about it because nobody wants to talk about that. You know, people think that that's a negative thing to say. You know, they say that I should be more open. So when I started speaking about like the reality or something that I've been through and I overcome, and then people really reject it, right? Because it's a connotation of negativity, but it's not. I overcome. So here we go. It's positive.

But people are uncomfortable with vulnerability, I think, because nobody wants— everybody likes to have a mask and just pretend, you know, everything's great. How are you? I'm great, you know. And, and I'm not saying you need to tell a stranger on the street your deepest trauma. But I am saying that sometimes to ourselves we can lie and pretend like you're fine, and then there's a disconnect inside. And as I've learned to grow as an artist and learn to, you know, treat my inner artist with respect and kindness, which is part of overcoming perfectionism— you have to learn how to let go of that inner critic that we hear constantly— and okay, if I'm going to learn to love myself and to speak with gentleness and self-compassion and kindness and all of that stuff, then I guess I better get to know who that person is and why have I been so mean, and, and is what's actually going on inside. And it's Oh, she's really hurt and she needs to express herself at the piano. So like, that's what I did, and then we recorded it, and now it's out in the world. And the first 4 songs I made was very vulnerable to release them. You just kind of like, you do this, you're like, you're pushing it out in the world, and you just like, don't look, I don't want to hear it, don't tell me what you think, I don't want to know. Um, so that's a little bit how I felt, especially with Let Me Heal. That one's a very intense, um, personal song. But the people have been great. There's been a great encouragement coming back to me. And you know, the streams are not huge numbers, but I don't need them to be huge numbers. I just needed to at least what was inside of me. And, and who knows, I'm sure I'll keep going because I have more things to write.

So wow, but it's so wonderful that you can actually use music to express yourself because as a classically trained musician, that's not easy to do. But I think your upbringing and a love for country music and these things, I don't know really, and maybe you had some training of writing songs too.

Yeah, I actually did a songwriting course during COVID and it was in the States. So, uh, I was at 1 AM, I was on Zoom trying to learn how to write a chorus, but that was another really fun adventure. And that's what we were talking about with, you know, helping artists discover their full potential. It's like, well, look at your other interests and, and learn and educate yourself on that, because you're right, your classical training was probably very limiting in the fact that you don't even know how to improvise. Like, right, we, we don't even want to sit down and play if we don't have score. And you've practiced 4 to 6 hours a day for how many years and you won't play unless you have it memorized? Like, I'm sorry, something is very wrong in how we've taught people to approach the instrument, and there should be way more freedom in it.

Absolutely. So I interviewed these people, experts in that too. So, oh great, yeah, I will listen to that episode happily. Yes, it's a theory called music learning theory, and then they're really changing the way we teach students not just notes on the score, but to think of it like learning language. You don't start out by learning letters, right? As a toddler, they, they, yeah, they started speaking first, right? So the same thing, same goes with music. It should be taught that way.

So I completely agree. That sounds wonderful.

So speaking of music education, so you are an educator, so I want to ask a few questions about that. So How has the music education evolved over the past decade and what are the most significant change you've observed?

Well, I, I saw that question in, in your, in preparation and I thought how it's changed would be a shift towards embracing entrepreneurship. I think the fact that there's even courses being starting to be offered is a huge shift. And I would say that is in the last decade, cuz when I was in school, I don't remember hearing anything about it. In Europe, I had, you know, a girl from Spain yesterday, she said, we have nothing like this in Spain. So I don't think it's everywhere, but you know, I think it's varying per institution. And as it's becoming more talked about, also our work at The Fearless Artist is about getting visible and just sharing the message. People are like, oh yeah, we do need to talk about this, and why did I not learn anything about this in school? So I think that's a great shift, uh, embracing, you know, people like motivational speakers have helped me so much with the entrepreneurial mindset, following people like Gary Vee who talks about How to create opportunities, how to create income, looking, all of that stuff relates to us as creatives. Um, and, and other creative influencers. Uh, there's an artist that I follow, I think her name is Josie Lewis Art, and she shows how she's creating and also selling. And then I don't, it's just like a really beautiful, clear way of this is how I earn a living doing what I love. And when somebody breaks it down for you and gives you an example of what it could look like. It gives you a lot of ideas and it brings clarity and vision. And I think that's how I've really inspired myself is by looking at other people who are achieving a level of success and saying, okay, like they're doing it. There's a way to do it. Like, let's find the way.

How relevant is classical training in today's diverse musical landscape?

I think our classical education is the foundation. I think it's so crucial to have our harmonic understanding, our technical understanding. I mean, we, we have a facility, we have an ability, we have so much about my training. I did not recognize how good it was until I got older and I saw people who hadn't had, you know, I did the Royal Conservatory of Music in Canada, and I know your guest, um, from A Seat at the Piano also mentioned RCM. And, you know, I had like ear training exams and I had sight reading exams, and sight reading is one of my biggest assets now. So I think it's due to RCM. And because I had this kind of rigorous upbringing, now I can play anything. You put anything in front of me, I can play it. Like, I've played for churches, I've played for con— like pop concerts. I've played background gigs. Like, I can, you know, I can do it. And I— there's a lot of pianists who maybe didn't have that training who then don't have that skill. And so I think, yeah, the more and more I've valued that upbringing. And then you can translate to any genre, right? Because like, I just saw an ad this morning for this guy, you know, those stupid ads we could get on YouTube about Simply Piano or whatever. And he's like, if you have 1 hour this week, you can learn 100 songs because you only need 4 chords. And I'm like, you know what, he's right. You can learn a hundred songs, but like, okay, fine, you know. So I'm much happier that I started classical and then I can like have more added to my plate than if I started limited with 4 chords and then now I'm trying to learn scales or something.

Yeah, absolutely. Yes, thank you. I— that's exactly what I wanted to hear. So how can educators prepare students for this rapidly changing musical world, even musical world changes, you know, very quickly.

Yeah, I think the first thing is staying relevant and staying informed, talking to other people. How are you teaching this concept? What's your tech setup? Uh, what's going on with this new platform, software, app? I mean, tech, tech is changing so fast. Um, and especially with COVID like we all kind of learned way more about video and audio editing. I mean, I had very, very little skills. I still don't have very many, but I have more than I used to. The fact that we all started recording and posting or playing online or doing a livestream concert, which I did from my living room, that was a Vancouver series. That was a cool day. An educator needs to have a flexible mindset, an open mindset, willing to continue learning the latest editions of the books that are coming out, willing to keep up with the rapid change in technology. And TikTok is a huge deal for a lot of independent artists. They are able to get visibility and break through the market. They don't need a label. And so many people are like, ugh, TikTok, I would never download that app. It's like, okay, but like, there's so much opportunity here that you just dismiss because maybe a lack of understanding or, or I don't know. So I think it's important that we just try and stay aware of what's going on out there and staying in the know.

Now we have to go into a little bit more deep conversation. So I want to ask more philosophical questions. So it's the vision of the classical music industry. So let's start with this. So we touched a little bit of pandemic impact. So what did the pandemic teach us, us as classical musicians? Do you think it was— there any big shift in our industry? Was it a long-term change? And is it about the way we reach out to the audience? Or maybe is it about classical musicians' perspectives on our career? I mean, You know, we had nearly 3 years to think about, meditate on these thoughts, right? And then, or are there, is there any new emerging genres, you know, mixed with classical music due to those times or any, or maybe our mindset toward this traditional image or perception of being a classical musician, music has changed, but what would be the biggest change that you feel?

I think one of the positive things of COVID was bringing people together in an online, in an online sense, and the tech that changed so rapidly. I mean, that people were now being able to give online lessons, for example. So, you know, Zoom sound is, is obviously not great, but there were a lot of new platforms that emerged, external microphones being used, or like new ways to reach, um, teacher-student, and many university professors were teaching now exclusively. So I don't know, it, in that sense, it kind of provides more possibilities, you know, less travel time, less commute time wasted. My entrepreneurship class was taught exclusively online for an entire year, and that just meant that, um, once the pandemic was over, I could be traveling and still teach my class. So in a sense, there was a lot of possibilities there. I also had something where I started doing online concerts, which I had never done before. And only after the pandemic did I realize I could be playing for a lot of people in Canada online who want to hear me. And I could have done that way before lockdown, but I never thought to put an offer together like that because I didn't have this closed door of you can't leave your house. So, you know, I like to share with my grandma, she was in a care home and I felt very far from her, obviously. And then as soon as lockdown happened, I realized we can FaceTime and I can play for her over FaceTime. Well, why was I not doing that the entire time that I've been living in Holland and she's been in the care home? But that just like wasn't even a thought because we didn't— limitation brings direction. When doors close, you are forced to say, what is now possible? And I found that there were kind of two mindsets among people, classical musicians that I was talking to. One is like, everyone's panicking, like the sky is falling, it's going to be over. We're never going to have concerts again. Like I did hear people say this, will we ever return to the concert hall? You know, I mean, I thought that was a pretty bold statement, but I, I also didn't have any certainty over what was happening, so who knows, right? And then things were being dealt with very differently in the Netherlands compared to France. And so there was so much uncertainty about how things were being dealt with that we went into lockdown for, you know, we'd go in for 3 weeks, then we'd come out. I could play a concert for 30 people. We had to be sitting one seat in between every single person. So we'd have like a full theater with 30 people in it. Then we'd go into lockdown again, everything canceled. It was just like this back and forth. So I think a flexible mindset, being open to change, being willing to adapt are all like really things that helped people get through that. And then with the other, the one side was saying everything's over and then the other, the other side was saying, okay, what's possible now? And so for us, we were focusing on the Fearless Artist. I started doing online concerts. I think I did 40 of them. I made like a couple Instagram posts. I called it for your ears only. You and the loved one will get to choose from a menu of like easy listening pieces, Chopin, Beethoven, Ravel, insert list piece, whatever here. And then I just had wonderful connections with people, conversations like this, you know, about the music in online from my living room. And I put my concert dress on and I took it like a serious concert. And, and I don't know, that brought a lot of joy. And I thought, this is interesting. This is something I never would've done if I hadn't been forced to. Think about it. So yeah, I don't know. It was a little, it was thought-provoking that season.

Yeah, but I love the way you shift your mind toward that. Like when we are going through adversities, you don't go, oh, this is impossible. Uh, I'm done. I'm, my, my life is over. My career is over. You think, oh, what's the possibility here? What can I do? What, what, what's missing? And then, oh, I can learn this. I can learn that. I love that sort of mindset.

Yeah. And having Diana to, to help me with that, of course, like I think on my own it's easy to not have that trippy wake up in the morning and look for the possibility. But when you're able to talk to people who are close to you and share vulnerably and then say, okay, now what? Like, yes, we can complain and we're scared and we don't know what's happening. And like lockdown, she wasn't, you know, Diana couldn't leave her Paris apartment for more than 1 hour once a day, 1 kilometer radius. I mean, it was just, it was insane. But then it's like, okay, well, let's work on our workshops and facilitating and finding new clients and posting on our Instagram and let's see what happens.

What's your thought on keeping classical music relevant? And you already mentioned, but you know, this industry thriving in this fast-paced society. You know, I struggled as a piano teacher living in New York City and teaching young children to start with back in 2006 or 2007. And I was quite shocked of, you know, their, especially parents, their knowledge of music. What it takes to learn music. So I want to know.

You mean limited knowledge, right? Just to clarify.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

So if they treat it like a hobby and it's like a once a week thing and they don't practice in between.

Right. And to many, many, so many things. I mean, I can talk about this forever, but I feel like as a job, as a piano teacher was more than just teaching music. I think of educating so much more and educating the parents to many things. So what do you think? Keeping classical music or music education relevant and this industry thriving.

I have been thinking recently about adapting to audience needs and making— I think part of our job as performing artists, which we also maybe aren't taught about in school, is to become educators of the music. If you want to have new audiences who have, let's say, zero classical music training, you cannot expect them to come sit through a symphony, which is 1 hour long, quietly, not move, not cough, not rattle their wrappers, and then come out and have like this profound experience. Like they have no idea what they just listened to. They don't know what to listen to. They don't understand where it came from. They don't understand anything about the composer. Like, okay, they can read the program notes, but that still takes like a highly, you know, there's like a certain level of intelligence or trained person who's gonna sit there and have the patience and, you know, with the, social media ruining our attention spans, I think that we have to kind of learn to bring the music to the people. And I love this concept of sitting at the piano with a microphone and talking the audience through what you're about to hear and sharing, you know, the story or connecting with them. And then, and then they are, as we already said, they're much more willing to listen, but they also know what they're listening to. And the example I like to use is when I go to a museum, I look at these paintings, I'm overwhelmed. They're beautiful. I'm highly impressed. I still don't know what I'm looking at. I don't have so much art history education, so I don't know what the symbolism of this color means or what this, uh, you know, this vase that they're using represented. So I get the audio tour and I pay the $5 and I walk around with the, with the little receiver in my hand and it explains the painting to me. And then I'm like, wow, this is amazing. So like, I think that for our audiences, it is our job to say, this is what you're about to hear, and to help them, because it's, it's on us to teach them, it's not on them. And to also present concerts in maybe a more relaxed setting, you know. And so Candlelight, just coming back to that, that's why I just really love this concept, because I think that they are a bridge from another genre concert where people— by the way, if you go to a festival, they're drunk and they're yelling and they're talking and they're listening to the music, but are they really? I mean, you To the other extreme of everyone is dead silent like a mouse. So then Candlelight comes in and they're like, we're gonna give you the wow factor. You're gonna have thousands of candles. It's in this gorgeous cathedral and you're gonna listen to an hour of easy listening music that you already know cuz you already know the band or you know the composer, whatever. So then people are like, oh, I've had so many people come up to me and say, that was my first piano concert. Thank you so much. I loved it. I'm like, how much more likely are these people now gonna go to the symphony or to the concerto performance? Because they have some understanding of what it's going to be like. And they're not freaked out by the elitism, you know, of the fancy gowns. And I just had one of my friends go to a concert in Norway to the symphony, and she got side-eyed by an older lady because she was in casual clothing. And so there's still this idea of like, you go to symphony, you need to dress up. And like, okay, but let's just let people be people. If it's about the music, then let's bring them to accept people how they are and, and introduce them to what we do. And then, and then many of them would like it and they would stick around, you know, and then I, it helps dismantle this classical music is dying. It's like, well, maybe you should just change the, the packaging of your messaging.

Yeah. The whole, whole entire branding needs to be really updated, upgraded. I think we're working on it, but yeah.

Yeah. There's new, there's new concepts that are coming through that are exciting. Or like, you know, some friends in Montreal had this concert series in a restaurant cafe for a while and people would get up and they would play a piece or two and then, you know, it's much more casual setting, but we're still enjoying this great music and it doesn't diminish or dumb down the music to do it like that. Yes, I think that's some of the fear behind like, oh, we have to be very serious because what we do is very serious. It's like, yes, but like you can say that our work is excellent and still be more friendly or kind or casual or just like, like relax a little bit. You could still play to a very high level and be chill. So I don't know.

Amen to that, because dumbing down never works because, you know, the, the audiences are not dumb. Right? And they want high quality.

Yeah. And we don't want to diminish the art either because like we're trying to aspire to something greater than ourselves, so we don't want to bring it down to our level. But I think that there is a way to make it maybe more palatable for people who have no introduction to it.

Then what is your thought on our duty or gift as classical musicians to society at large?

Um, I say a lot to people, you have a gift that needs to be seen. So, you know, a city, a light on a hill cannot be under a lamp, uh, under a, is, cannot be hidden, I think is the saying. So if you have a light and you have a gift, you maybe also have a, a duty to put it out there. And whether that's through letting people in through your process on, on social media or starting a mailing list or a blog or finding ways to reach people. You know, people always argue, well, word of mouth. Like, okay, fine. You can build your career in a local word of mouth sense. Like word of mouth, of course, is extremely powerful. But I think it's only amplified with our online presence. I mean, you and I would not be talking right now if it was word of mouth that I relied on to build my career, right? So like, right, right. I mean, it just gives you so many opportunities if you could share with people, hey, this is what I think and this is what I do, and maybe it's interesting to you too, and we could connect about it. And so I think that we have a duty to share what we're doing and to find the audiences who need what we have to say.

Well, Michelle, we can talk about this forever. I'm really thoroughly enjoying our conversation. But we're coming to an end of our conversation. So I have a few more questions, uh, if that's okay. So definitely, what's the next phase, next goal for you and for your business, The Fearless Artist Mastermind?

The Fearless Artist Mastermind, uh, we are currently growing our membership community. Um, I would love to see that where we have multiple pods, um, for, you know, different time zones. So the North Americans can join something that's maybe in an evening, because right now we can't have any evenings because I'm over here. In Europe. Um, so I think expanding that, uh, we've brought in a number of great guest workshop speakers. The Bulletproof musician Noah Kiyama came in and did a workshop for us. Um, my great colleague in Rotterdam, um, came in and did a branding workshop for us. So I would just love to get outside influences coming to speak to our community. And, um, personally, I'm, I'm releasing this fifth song and going to be recording the rest of the album to release and, you know, learning the marketing side and overcoming any, any limiting beliefs about constantly having to put yourself out there on socials and building a fan base. And I think just continuing to pursue excellence in performing and, and scaling that.

Just a quick shout out to our audience about your coaching program and also your release on Friday, the song.

Yeah, thefearlessartistmastermind.com, and you can also find us on Instagram and everything is there for how to join one of our programs.

Great. And then your personal website is michellelynpianist.com, right?

Yes. And on Instagram, I am @thisismichellelynn. Great.

Thank you. So before we— I will let you go. We have one more thing to do. It's called The Piano Pod with Rapid Fire Questions, where this part of the show where I get to ask fun questions to each guest. And here's a little twist. As silly as these questions may sound, your answers may reveal who you truly are. So, ready or not.

All right, let's do this.

Yes, yes. Okay, please answer them with the shortest responses as possible. No explanation is necessary. Level 1: What is your comfort food?

Spaghetti.

How do you like your coffee? Black. Oh, cat or dog?

Dog.

Oh, you have a dog?

He's on the couch right now. Here she is. Oh my goodness, so sweet, so cute. I love her so much. She's my best friend. What is her name?

What's her name?

Her name's Hannah and she's a rescue from Cyprus. Oh wow, really? Hannah.

Oh, how sweet. Okay, so next one. Sunrise or sunset?

Sunrise.

Summer or winter? Summer. Okay. Paper book or ebook?

Paper book.

Hmm. Interesting. Now, level 2. Level 2. What skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?

Dancing.

Hmm. Oh, wow. What kind of dancing?

I don't know. I would just like to be more flexible and, like, coordinated in general.

Okay. Sounds good. What is your word or words to live by?

Laughter's the best medicine.

Ah, that's great. What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Compassion.

Hmm. Name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead.

Mel Robbins. I was talking about her this morning. Um, Brené Brown and, um, Obama.

Which Obama? Uh, Barack or Michelle?

Yeah, Barack.

Barack. Barack. Okay.

I mean, both, both of them obviously, but Yeah, yeah.

Great. Now, if you could meet your future self, what question would you ask?

Did you make it?

Yes. Good. All right. Name one piece in your current playlist.

Oh, Mumford Sons, Little Lion Man.

All right, then next level, which is the top tier, level 3. What do you believe is the key to a fulfilling life?

Did you serve the people that you were supposed to serve?

Oh, wow. That's beautiful. Now, last question. Fill in the blank. Music is blank.

Healing.

Hmm. Wow. I think that's like the first time I ever heard somebody says healing. Oh yeah. Out of all the episodes I had.

Great.

So this concludes the episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Michelle. Thank you, Michelle. That was beautifully done. And thank you for joining my show today and sharing your stories and insights and expertise. You can learn more about Michelle and her amazing work through her website at michellelynpianist.com and her co-running business at thefear— uh, thefearlessartistmastermind.com. And all the links are listed in the show notes. And thank you to my wonderful audience and fans for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast platform. Remember to hit the thumbs up button and subscribe to my channel if you're watching this episode on YouTube. Follow The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song on social media to get the latest piano news via Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. I will see you for the next episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Thank you, Michelle. Bye everyone.

Bye.