Season 5 Episode 12: "Blurred Boundaries: Classical Meets Jazz" feat. Ophelia Gordon,...

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Welcome back to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Today I am thrilled to introduce a truly remarkable guest, Ophelia Gordon. A pianist whose artistry bridges classical and jazz with fresh energy and insight, particularly in the music of Nikolai Kapustin. Joining us from London, Ophelia brings a unique perspective on interpreting Kapustin's electrifying and genre-defying compositions. Her musical journey is anything but conventional. She began as a classical guitarist and double bassist, studying at the Brit School, before earning degrees in music from Durham University and City University London. Her passion for exploring different musical languages ultimately led her to the piano and to Kapustin, whose work brilliantly fuses classical structures with the rhythmic vitality of jazz. Now recognized as one of the most exciting interpreters of Kapustin's music, Ophelia recently signed with Divine Art Recordings and is set to release her debut solo album, Capustin Between the Lines. Through her performances and teaching and scholarship, she is introducing new audiences to Capustin's extraordinary music. As a pianist and educator myself and podcast creator, I've always been fascinated by artists who carve out their own artistic identity. My own journey navigating the classical world while constantly evolving as a musician and entrepreneur has shown me the importance of vitality, curiosity, and authenticity. That's why I find Ophelia's story especially compelling. Her ability to bridge classical and jazz traditions while championing Kapustin's music is a testament to the power of artistic exploration. In this episode, we'll dive into Ophelia's fascinating journey, her transition to piano, her deep connection with Kapustin's music, and how she blends two musical traditions that are often seen as separate. Whether you are a pianist, a music lover, or someone passionate about artistic individuality, this conversation will challenge and inspire the way you think about music. Before we begin, I want to share something new with you. Every Friday, I publish a blog on Substack where I go beyond the podcast, offering personal reflections, behind-the-scenes insights, and thoughts on music. Creativity, and the evolving role of classical musicians. If you enjoyed these conversations, I invite you to subscribe at thepianopod.substack.com for exclusive content and deeper discussions. Now, without further ado, let's welcome the extraordinary Ophelia Gordon to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Please enjoy the show. You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the future and thriving in a complex, ever-evolving world. Welcome to The Piano Pod, Ophelia. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show.

Yay! Thank you, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Thank you. So today, from where you are joining us? Yes.

So I'm joining you from South London, a small suburb called Dulwich.

Okay.

Yeah, it's very nice. But literally right from the suburbs of London. So quite far away.

Oh, how nice. I've never actually, I've never been to London, so I really love to. Yes, yes, I know. Right. So, but before we dive in, I'd like to give a special shout out to Blair Bumigura. Blair, founder of the Artsong Preservation Society of New York, for introducing Ophelia to The Piano Pod. Of course, for our listeners, Blair and the Artsong Preservation Society of New York are no strangers. They were our sponsor of the month back in November 2024. So Ophelia, I hear that you were in New York a couple months ago.

Yes, yes, yes. So I was lucky enough to have been invited to be the resident pianist for the Artsong Preservation Society, which happens at the Manhattan School of Music every June. And I'm— I became close with Blair earlier last year, and then he invited me out, and it was a fantastic experience working with, oh, roughly about 50 different singers, and I had to learn an incredible amount of repertoire. In a very short space of time. I think I probably learned up to about 60 different art song pieces.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah, in about a month. So that was very challenging. If my sight reading hasn't improved after that, I don't know what will. But it was fantastic, and it's a very, very special organization that supports the preservation of art song. So Um, that was actually my first time to New York. So what an amazing first time.

Wow.

Yes, that's great. It's made me hungry for more, so I can't wait to get back out there. And, um, yeah, it was a fun experience.

Will you be back for this summer?

Um, this summer, I'm not sure at the moment. Um, I've got quite a lot going on at the moment in London. And I think that— yes, yeah, it's taking up quite a lot of time. I'm sure we're going to get into that in the, in the chat. But, um, hopefully there will be more opportunities. And, um, yeah, I'm definitely going to be coming out at some point soon. So that—

yeah, you have to come back again so that we can meet soon.

Yeah.

Wow, great. But so today I'm really, really looking forward to exploring the unique style and legacy of groundbreaking Ukrainian composer Nikolai Katushkin, whose extensive innovative works have been performed by renowned pianists and cherished by so many. But surprised to know that his works remained relatively undiscovered until the later years in his life, no?

Yes. Yeah. As seems to be the way with certain composers, it's almost as soon as they've passed that's when they really come out of the woodwork. And that's been my experience with him anyway. So I only recently— I discovered him in 2022.

Oh, really?

So I'd actually never heard of him before. Um, and then through my research, I've obviously realized that he, he has kind of sort of from the '90s is when he was becoming more popular. Um, but from '38, you know, 1938, nobody really knew of him, and he's such an incredible composer, and I feel so lucky to be talking about him with you and exploring him. I'm just incredibly passionate about his music.

Yeah, and I can tell. And then I really also want to discover why your obsession, right? And then there's— I'm sure there are so many stories and explanations behind it. But before we go even further, I usually start this question with most of the guests. So the first one, the first question for our conversation is, if you were to capture the essence of your artistry, mission, and passion in just a few sentences, how would you define yourself as an artist today?

Yes, so I would say that I'm an artist who doesn't tick any boxes. I don't fit neatly into a style or an expectation. I'm very multifaceted, and my background, my education, my training, and now my work really gives this multi-diverse approach. And I think that as my artistry has been growing and changing and I've been maturing as a pianist, I'm starting to realize that it's being yourself and being authentic is what makes you an artist, and that's what gives you the strongest artistic voice. So it's a hard question.

It is.

But, but, and, and I could talk forever about it really, but I think it's just about realizing that I'm not a one-size type of artist, and I have had so many different experiences that actually that's beginning to shape who I am as a unique person, and it's about embracing that. Voice and that authenticity.

Wow. Well said.

I don't know if that answers the question.

Oh yeah, of course, because this season's theme is authenticity and joy on The Piano Pod, and it's just what you just said, just fits perfectly. So you said you don't quite fit in, but actually you fit into The Piano Pod theme. Perfectly. So thank you. Yeah, but you know, authenticity brings joy and happiness, right?

And I think that's it. I think, I think it can take a long time to figure out who you are, and then when you start realizing actually you're not, you're not meant to be another person, you're not meant to be another type of musician, you know, we can admire other musicians and we can, we can be inspired by them but really they are not us, and we will only grow as an individual if we embrace ourselves. And that's what I'm learning to trust more and more, you know. I'm still kind of at the beginning of my journey, um, although I've, I've achieved great things, I still feel like there's so much that's coming, and I'm still figuring out more about who I am. But the more I lean into that's what makes me me. The, the more my audience are connecting with me and the more my, my playing is improving as well, just by trusting. Do it your way and believe that, and take all the little bits that you've picked up with you along your way, put that in your music, and The audience responds in a very different way when you really are coming from that mindset. That's what I've been experiencing recently anyway.

Wow. Yeah, but to get there, to find your own voice, is not easy. It's challenging.

Yeah, yeah. And I think culturally, um, in Europe in particular, it can be very difficult because there are expectations of what musicians should be like, what they should play, how they should play. There's so much protected repertoire, you know, some of the most amazing repertoire— Beethoven, Chopin, Schubert— but it's so protected that if you ever want to try something else, you have to expect some sort of backlash in some ways, right? Um, because, yeah, because it's just been worship for such a long time. But I, I'm beginning to notice that if you trust your own interpretations and you really have a reason for why you're playing the music, it changes the perception of the listeners. It's very, it's very interesting how there is this shift once you get to that point, but it takes a long time to get there. And I think it really comes from having had life experience. And if you, if you understand what the music is about and how you can relate it to yourself, that is when your music can really change. And that's what I've been experiencing.

You've been saying trusting yourself, trusting myself, you know, oneself. That's, yeah, that's sometimes it's not easy because I, you know, we, like you mentioned, not only I think in Europe or in the United Kingdom, but also in the United States too, like classical music institution, what makes it classical music is classical music. And then so just to break a little rule here and there, just right? And then you almost feel like, am I, am I supposed to be doing this? And can I trust my gut? Can I trust my intuition, instinct, right? Yeah.

And we get told so many different things. So, um, you've at some point, you've almost got to collate everything that you've been told and then almost push it out the window, you know? So you can pick up bits in the way, but at the end of the day, it's you playing the music and you need to connect with the reason why you're playing Yeah, so it's getting to that stage and just trusting that everyone is going to have a different opinion about how you're playing, but they can never argue with why you're playing. And if you are able to demonstrate that emotional connection that you have, then it totally changes everything. But I think it leads into another point of being vulnerable enough to do that, because that That's the problem. I think that's, that's one of the biggest barriers here is it's almost like most musicians know, I want to play it because I love it, you know, or this piece reminds me of this, or, you know, I have a reason of why I'm playing this music, but I struggle to be vulnerable enough to show that in my playing, you know. So you have to be open to letting people really hear the music and where it's coming from and why you're playing it. And you don't have to explicitly tell people why you're playing it, but they will be able to hear. That's my experience anyway. That's been my recent experience.

Wow.

That's amazing. Now we can really talk more in depth. You already explored a little bit, but yeah, later, much later. But so I'm really sensing the reasons why you are attracted to Kapustin, because he is his own thing.

Absolutely, absolutely. So I first discovered his music on BBC Radio 3, which is a very popular radio station here. And in all fairness, I probably had heard his music as an encore before at a concert or something, but, you know, didn't, didn't sort of clock. And then when I heard this piece, it was within about 5 seconds, I knew immediately I have to play this music. I was like, who is this? What is this? I'm gonna go home as soon as I get home, because I was in the car at the time. I said, as soon as I get home, I have to find out what this is. So I went on to the listing, you know, the radio listing of what was being played and I saw it, I was like, oh my God, and I just listened to more and more and more, and I just became completely obsessed. So that's almost 3 years ago, and, um, I started just by playing, uh, the first étude. I thought, this is a good plot, where, where shall I start, you know? So I, I'd already played, um, varying different types of études— Ligeti, Chopin, you know, different, different ones. But I thought, okay, I'll start with what seems to be one of the most popular pieces of Capoeira. And it took, I'd say, like about a month to understand the language properly. But then after that, etude after etude after etude just became easier and easier. And now I'm doing an album. So it's crazy. It's going to be about 70 minutes of Capoeira. Wow, it kind of just exploded, really. Um, and, and now, you know, it's like, for me, it's the most comfortable repertoire that I play completely. Yeah, it— I mean, I feel so at home with it. And I knew that when I first heard, heard it on the radio. I knew that I'm going to be able to do this music. Like, it just spoke to me immediately. Um, but going back to what you said about how Kapustin doesn't fit into a box either, and I think that's— that must be what drew me to him, because it had the language, the harmony, the rhythm of jazz, but it wasn't— it's not improvised. I'm happy to explain a bit about my, my background and why it spoke to me, because I've had a very, um, very diverse exposure to music. And I grew up surrounded by jazz music. That was the sound of my home. So my mum is also a pianist. My granddad was a pianist. My great-granddad was a concert pianist based in Paris. So, wow, there's a big lineage, and it even goes further, further back. Like, my, my grandma's doing a family tree, and she's discovered even more quite prominent French musicians in the family tree. So that's very exciting. I hope to kind of find out a bit more about who's in the tree and how it all, how it all connects. Um, but I grew— yeah, I grew up predominantly to the sound of jazz because my mum, um, was also a saxophonist, pianist and saxophonist.

Oh my goodness.

Yes, yes. So she had— every weekend our home was basically a jazz club. Oh, and she'd have all her friends over and they'd play boogie-woogie blues, you know. She'd have all her other sax friends playing and they'd all just be improvising and jamming. So my memories of being young are hearing that music and watching these musicians play. And every night before I'd go to sleep, my mum would put jazz music on. You know, there is that saying, there's that belief that if you play classical music to a baby, you know, it makes them intelligent. But I think, I think this must have happened with jazz. You know, I've, I've kind of developed that taste. However, my training was classical. So when I was— as soon as I was old enough to be able to actually play, there isn't really an age of when I started. I just began playing. I was probably about 3 when I was actually tinkering away, and then started formal lessons probably a year later or something like that. Um, but the training was straight away classical, so very traditional, learning to read the music, you know, um, yeah, very traditional approach. And I just went through the grades and kind of continued with that. And I started also learning the violin, the guitar, double bass, the trumpet. Yeah, and I did them all to quite a high level. So, um, yeah, it was, it was a very interesting musical upbringing because I was constantly surrounded by music. And the interesting thing is that I was listening to jazz but playing classical music, which, which you'd think, oh, why did I maybe not express to play jazz? But I think, I think I was almost just doing what was shown to me, you know, or what my teachers were giving me. It was like, you know, I have that at home, but I'm doing this at school and, you know, and with my teachers and everything like that. So um, it was amazing when I heard Kapustin because it married those two things together. You know, it had the classical structure, and I knew that it was written. That was the other thing, although it sounds very spontaneous, you know, spontaneous. I knew this is something I'm going to be able to play because of the training I've had. Yeah, so that was a really nice feeling, but it was the jazz spirit that I had always been looking for and felt like, oh, I wish I could play traditional jazz, but I just hadn't had the opportunity to really study it and, and was so focused on my classical repertoire at the time. Um, yeah, it's, it's been a very interesting journey, and I spent 2 years at, uh, a popular school in London, the Brit School, where, yeah, where some artists such as Adele, Amy Winehouse, and some quite big names have come from there. And it was at that point where I started to realize, okay, I've had a lot of classical training at my educational places before, and then I arrive at the Brit School and it's totally the opposite. It's, it's It's almost like there's no classical. I've done all of this classical training and now I'm thrown in the other, other end where I have to do transcriptions. I'm learning about music from all over the world. I'm learning how to songwrite. It's totally different. But I didn't feel like I fitted into either category. You know, it was very strange. It was a very strange experience. And, um, even after that, you know, my education, I, I decided to go to university and, and focus on classical guitar. So I was— that was my, that was my main study, my principal study. And I was doing— so I did that for 3, 4 years. And then, uh, again I felt, is this what I should be doing? Do I fit in here? It's something— doesn't feel totally at home, you know. Um, I was kind of just doing what I felt was expected, I think. And I think that's quite an honest journey of a lot of musicians, is they just kind of keep going with the path that they're shown and go, okay, this is your instrument, do the grades. If you like it, just keep going, keep going. And, um, it was— it's actually really been since discovering Kapustin, or maybe a year before, where I started to feel like I need to start playing what's right for me, what feels right for me. So I would only choose repertoire really if it spoke to me, you know. And I think, I think it's that distinction between kind of doing what's expected and then actually playing really what connects to you and just going with that. And, and as soon as I started almost like rebelling in some way and not playing the repertoire that everyone was expecting me to play, my performing was improving because I felt this is really what I should be doing. And especially with Kapustin, because it speaks to me and it speaks to my education as well. It's made me feel very at home, and I have a very strong sentiment to playing his music. It's quite strange, but I can't really describe it in any other way, to be honest.

Yeah, but in a way, I can really feel you. I can really relate to you and the classical music. Well, let's just focus on classical music. It's just like this pyramid. You're supposed to reach this top of this, right? Tip, right?

Yeah, yeah, there's this sort of expectation, this huge expectation. And like, going back to what I said about, uh, how protected the repertoire is, there's almost no room for your own imprint in it, you know. If you do do something that's totally, um, personal, you have to be prepared that people are going to, are going to come up, come against it, you know, then they might not, they might not enjoy it. But I think that actually, if you find repertoire— so it doesn't even have to be, um, contemporary, it can be traditional repertoire— but it's, it's again connecting to just playing it completely authentically and trusting that, you know, it's about, it's about anyone can really play the notes, you know. We can all, you know, if you spend enough time, we can all learn to play the right notes at the right time. But it's really about the why and how you can, how you can demonstrate that. And I'm hoping with Kapustin that I'm able to, you know, show my journey through the album because I'm not playing his music purely because I like it, you know, it's for a very different reason. And I think the album has come exactly at the right time in my life, and it's, it's an album about a journey and it's not a finish, you know, it's not a perfect product. It's not, this is the pinnacle of my career. This is just a point in my journey and how I have found total, almost expressive freedom in his playing. So, oh wow, does that make sense?

Yeah, it does make sense. It does make sense. Wow. So the— well, we can talk more about the album later, but album comes in sometime in the fall 2025?

Something like that? Yeah, yeah, we're hoping, we're hoping. Um, so I've recorded the first half. I've still got a lot more to do. Um, but it's, it's all set to be recorded in the spring, which is really good. And then there's, you know, things that have to happen before it's released. But hopefully, hopefully in the next few months I should be thinking about a proper release date, and there'll be a launch party, and it's all very exciting. But yeah, this year, this year, definitely So very exciting.

That is very exciting. Yeah. Now I've also— because I've known Kapustin for a while, like, yes. Yeah, because I think he's bigger in the United States. Obviously his music was so influenced by American jazz music. So obviously if you live in America, United States, you hear quite a bit. And then Yuja Wang, she performed the, I think, 3rd Etude, number 3. Yeah, and that's famous. I've been to her concerts twice and at Lincoln Center, and then she always plays that as one of the encore pieces.

Yeah, and I think that's great because she's obviously this huge pioneering figure, and for even just that little glimmer, for that profile, for someone of that profile to be playing his music is fantastic. And I think that has started more and more people going, what is this? You know? Um, and, and I think it's fascinating that it's popular, or maybe even more popular in America than it is at the moment in the UK, because Kapustin never went to America. Yes. So, so it's, it's amazing how He's an absolute genius because he picked— the whole influence has come from the radio, really, and TV. That was everything. There were visiting American pianists that would go to Russia and play because he spent a lot of his time in Russia, although he always said he was a Ukrainian. So, you know, let's respect that and not say that he's, you know, Russian. But he Yeah, it's really special that he was able to pick up so much just from those mediums. Um, and I bet he would have loved to have gone to America and actually seen it and absorbed it, uh, in the flesh.

But the pure genius that he is, and you know, because I, I've tried several etudes. I, I tried the first one And I think I tried the number 4, number 4 Remembrance. Oh yes, so beautiful. And then yeah, number 5 Railery. Oh, that is just insane. But it has the blend of what, Rachmaninoff to Bill Evans, Art Tatum.

Oh, it's really incredible. So apparently Kapustin's favorite pianist was Oscar Peterson, and actually you can hear that in the preludes mostly. I feel personally, I think that that's the response I've gotten mostly from audiences as well, because every time I've performed his music, and actually almost for the last 6 months, all of my concerts have been all Kapustin. So if you come to watch me, be prepared to listen to just Kapustin. But people love it, and they just say— they almost are teaching— the audiences are teaching me even more as well, because they will come back and say, that sounded exactly like Herbie Hancock. Oh, you know, and I hadn't thought actually, yeah, that is a bit like Herbie, you know. So I love hearing other people's responses to his music because then he's educating me as well. And I, I think that's really special. And, um, I, I recently posted a video, you know, sadly so many artists now have to use social media, you know, to promote their music. And although it can be a difficult world to navigate, I think it's quite important that we try. To reach audiences through that way. And I posted a video, um, just a short clip of me playing some of the Kapustin, and it's had almost 35,000 views, which is fantastic. But it's the comments that I'm getting from it are incredible because the audiences are saying, that sounds like it's from a Japanese video game, like, where's this from? Or, you know, that sounds like Prokofiev. And it's, it's so amazing how there are all these little um, snippets of the music that people are picking up such different ideas from, but everyone is just loving it. I think that's the main thing, is that there are more and more people now discovering his music that instantly are like, what is this? Almost like the way that I felt when I first heard his music. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I felt the same way when I first heard it, and it was so shocking. And then Yeah, it's jazzy, but it's not quite jazz jazz because you hear all these classical elements. As a classical musician, you instinctively know that's classical. There's no way that's improvisation, but it's like—

so, yes, it's so interesting.

Yeah, so I want to know what makes his music so unique. I just— we just talked about it, but— and then unique and compelling for both classical and jazz pianists. Yes.

So if I, if I come from more of a jazz perspective, because what I have found very interesting is most of the people that have connected with me online have actually been jazz musicians, and they, they are the ones that— what is this?

Huh, interesting.

Are you improvising? Have you written that? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. But isn't that fascinating that actually more jazz musicians are picking up on the playing than classical. So it definitely speaks to them immediately. But there's hardly anyone really— I mean, it's becoming more popular, but most of the jazz musicians that I have encountered and worked with even had never heard of Kapustin either. But they're kind of like, they perk up, you know, they go, 'Hang on, who is this?' Like, I think I might need to actually find out who this person is because it really resonates with their language. And I think that's why they are now picking up more about it because of the use of the rhythm, because of the use of the harmony. And I'm currently doing a master's at a conservatoire called Trinity Laban in London, and I'm doing both classical and jazz.

Really?

Yeah. And amazingly, in piano? Yes, in piano.

Oh my God.

Yeah. So I— but what I'm loving is that I'm taking the jazz professors— the Kapustin, they'd never heard of him, but they go, oh my God, like, what is this? This is incredible. And they're very honest about the fact that they say, I don't know if I'd ever play this. I don't— they say, I don't know if I'd ever be able to play this. And I don't know if necessarily it would feel— I'd feel comfortable playing it. But they actually say to them, this is jazz, which is really interesting. So I've found myself in lots of interesting conversations about is Kapustin jazz or classical. And yes, it's very— it sounded really straight away, it is classical, you know, okay, if we, if we respect the tradition of playing written music, and also a lot of the interpretation, a lot of the composition has classical elements to it. But when I play it to a jazz musician, they say it's jazz. And then I open up the question to them, but hang on, what about improvisation? Isn't improvisation jazz? And there is so much jazz now that isn't improvised.

Isn't?

No, there's a lot. So, so if jazz musicians— if I think it takes a certain jazz musician to maybe talk about that, be happy to talk about that. And improvisation is a huge tradition in the jazz world. That is jazz to me. That is jazz. But I find it interesting that some jazz musicians are saying to me, I think boosting is jazz. And I think, oh, but this opens a whole other debate of what is what then, you know? Why, why is jazz only improvisation and why is classical only written? Because you also have classical improvisation.

Yes, because Bach, Bach's time, improv was a normal thing.

Absolutely. So it opens up this whole other you know, line of, of debate, really. And I'm, I'm not in any position to kind of put anything in any box. And I think that's, that's what I am about, is that actually it— I'm not going to be for or against either viewpoint, but I just find it fascinating how other people are responding to it and saying, no, I think it's jazz. And then you might take it to another musician, they say, no, I think it's classical. And it's like, okay, well, what is it? You know, and Kapustin himself was very adamant that he was a classical pianist and that this is classical music. But if he were alive today, I would love to say to him, but you must be improvising to get to your composition. Like, you must have been skilled in that art because your compositions are so dynamic. And, and the research I've done is that he obviously— it started off with an idea and then he composed on top of it, and that was why he said it made it so, um, you know, so perfect. It's because the improvisation in the early stage was refined. And so he, he says it can't be considered jazz because it's not improvisation, it is written. And I think that's really important to honour that, and I would never— I'd almost never advertise the music as jazz. But you can't take away that there is harmony and rhythm here that is of the jazz language. So it's a really unusual place, and classical— when classical musicians approach it, they're coming, you know, if they haven't had that kind of exposure to jazz before, they're playing it in a very kind of formal way of, 'This is just an étude and I'm playing it just as an étude,' whereas I think if you have a maybe a stronger understanding of the jazz sound, you can maybe pick up nuances that Kapustin would have maybe had appreciated, um, in the performances. Does that make sense? So I think, I think what's important, at least for my own approach, is that my understanding of jazz is just constantly being developed and, and enriched in a very practical sense as well, so that it's, it's constantly influencing my interpretations of the written score. So you've got to have both, really, I think, in this.

I'm hearing this in and out of either side, right?

Yes. Yeah, that's it. It's, it's very, uh, it can be a very debatable subject, very. And, and it kind of leans back to the protectiveness of, of people's repertoire and the protectiveness of genre and And I'm just finding that as I'm developing as a musician, I really want to cross those, or I want to challenge those ideas. And yeah, and very— and, and what's, what's really great is that I'm— because of my studying now, I've been kind of given this extra space to just have fun and explore, experiment with no kind of, uh, expectation, you know, it's like a playground, so it's great. So I'm just at the start of a Kapustin project where I'm creating lead sheets for jazz musicians of Kapustin's etudes, and I'm going to create a classical and jazz musician collaborative performance. So the idea is that the jazz musicians will be able to improvise with the classical musicians playing Capustin's music, and it's going to be expanded. And I think that that is something that needs to happen. And I think Capustin has kind of given this opportunity to explore this. So this is what I would like to do, and this is what I'd like to explore. So that's a whole nother thing.

I have so many questions. Wait, wait, wait.

I'm going off on a tangent.

So based on Kapustin's current, let's say, some etude number 1, something like that.

Yeah.

Then you are making a lead sheet out of it, right? So lead sheet is usually, usually there's a melody, single melody line, and you'll see the chord names on top. And then jazz has its own chord thing. Like you see the letter, kept the letter with a little bit of a different code to follow, like a C minus, C, M-A-J. I'm explaining to my listeners. So that's exactly what you're doing. And usually jazz musicians, when they do a big ensemble or something, they have this lead sheet in front of them. Then they're improvising. According to the lead sheet. So you're not supposed to go play the different chord.

Yes, yes, you have to follow. Yes, you have to, you have to respond to what the harmony is, is saying. And, and once you know what the harmony is, it then opens up doors to the scales that you can play within that harmony. So then that helps you improvise on top of the harmony that's been written out. So, so my, my project is really to analyse all of the harmony across the whole étude. That's gonna take— that's a lot of work, which is why I'm really trying to learn jazz as much as I can and understand harmony in that way, so that I can analyse that. And but what I want to be able to do is to be able to say, okay, classical musician, here's the score, learn the score, you know, do it as you normally would, but here's the lead sheet for the jazz musicians. And although the classical musicians, there might be a slight— there might be more space given, you know, I might put sections in where it will give room to the jazz musicians to improvise. So there will be slight arrangements. The whole point is that on stage or in a performance setting, we will be able to play together.

Oh my God.

And there won't be this, there won't be this, oh, well, you're only jazz, so you can't play this, and you're classical, so you're not allowed to play. You know, it's got— there's got to be a joining here. And we, we aren't all, you know, you only have to stay on that side and you have to stay on that side. And I think Houston is that, is that perfect platform to do that. He's almost given you the template for that. He said he's Here's the harmony in a classical structure, but why can't we improvise on top of that?

You just, well, unlocked the question, the answer to the question, the ultimate question. So basically jazz musicians, what makes it jazz is the lead sheet based on the freedom. Yeah.

The freedom of being able to say, okay, I do have a structure here. You know, I have to follow the harmony, but really I'm free. And I think with Kapustin's music, although it is structured and there is— you have to learn the notes like we would a classical musician, you've got to play it with freedom and you've got to have that jazz feel of the spontaneity of improvisation. And I think that's really important in—

but how do you do that as a classical musician? Yeah, if I may ask.

Yes. It's— I think it comes down to trust and actually, yeah, and actually almost saying, this is the way I want to play this phrase and I want it to be expressed in this way, I want to voice it this way, or I'm gonna, I'm gonna accentuate it in a different way. Which in the jazz world, you know, who says you can— you, you can accent whatever you want, you know, there isn't really like a set thing. You can, you can do your own thing, right? And I think that's what you have to trust with Kapustin's music, in that although you're playing the notes and it's written and you do want to see, okay, if Kapustin has put an accent on one of the notes, we should respect that because he's put— he's taken time to write that in. But Kapustin, in some of his scores, when he's actually— when we've been lucky enough that he's written a description about how he wants to play the piece, which you do find in some of his scores, he says, from his own words, play this as if it is being improvised.

That's what he says.

Yes. And he says it needs to be played not like a toccata style, uh, because then, you know, it doesn't— we don't want it to be even. It actually needs to be you know, alive. And, and it's amazing to have actually read that, and it's, it's almost given credit to— he wants you to play it like jazz and not so much in a classical way. And, and I think that that's really fascinating to explore. But going back to kind of authenticity, if you want to play it in a classical way play it in a classical way. You know, there's kind of no right or wrong, um, and it's— I think every pianist should try and play his music because I think you will learn a lot about how you want to interpret things, and it will give you that platform to do that. Sure, I think so.

And you know what makes his music so fascinating and attractive is that No, I'm not a jazz musician, and I tried, but jazz is a different language you speak, right? The way they— so going back to lead sheet versus the written work, so the way jazz musicians think about music and the way we think about— I think about music is different. So that's one thing. So when I tried Kapustin, some of the etudes, I was like, wow, I feel like I was a jazz musician.

Yes, because I've always wanted to be like that, you know. Maybe In the next life. I think that's why it's so special because it does connect a side of you that you might have always wanted or something that you've always loved, you know, an art form that you've always loved that you've just never had access to or never had, you know, it just hadn't happened. And I think that written out jazz, so not even just Kapustin, but any jazz that has been notated is really, is really special for people. And I, I think that it, it shouldn't automatically not be considered jazz because it's not spontaneous, you know. I think, I think that yes, jazz is a language and it's, um, it, it has its total own tradition, but there needs to be an access for people in a different way. In a different way. And I think it's very interesting just because I'm coming at it from a very different place, and I've had a very unusual upbringing musically.

And, um, that, that, yeah, that is your— because of that, because of your versatility, that contributes to playing his works. And also you would be the expert in his music, right? Because you, you can understand both sides.

Yes, and I think, I think, um, uh, you know, I'm, I'm just trusting my own vulnerability about it, you know, and, and thinking, well, there'll be other musicians that will play Kapustin in the, in the future, and there are other musicians that play his music now that might disagree with the way that I'm playing, but that's fine because I'm trusting that I'm doing it in a way that feels right for me. And, and based on my understanding of the two different music, the two different genres, that's how I'm playing it. And, and I think that's really how it— that's all you can do as an artist is just trust that I'm doing it this way, you know, and I'm connected to it this way. And, um, yeah, lean into that, I think. And it can be said for all, all genres. You know, all different types of music. It's really about if you trust, if you trust the way that you want to play it and you are able to communicate that, then it works, you know, or I'm finding it's working.

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But you know what, you're beaming. Your energy is just coming through the screen right now, and because You found your way because, you know, I love talking to people who are sort of like you, like in a gray area, you know, it's not black and white. I don't belong in this, I don't belong in that, but you are on your own thing, you know what I mean? Yeah. But then I understand. So when someone like you then finding— because of that, the challenge would be really finding your own voice or own expression.

I, I mean, whether that happens with most artists at some point, I don't know, you know, if, if people talk about that really. Um, but I mean, before, before Kapustin, I was playing a lot of Rachmaninoff. And I really loved playing his repertoire, and I still play, you know, I still play kind of in my spare time, you know, I still play his repertoire, and that's another music that speaks to me as well. And I used to have people say, "You play it so honestly," and I always wondered what they meant by that. And it wasn't necessarily about you're playing it honestly as you're learning, then that you're playing the notes honestly. You're actually playing it because it's— you're playing it honestly because you're playing it exactly how you feel you need to play. It's the honesty from yourself, which I think is what they were referring to. So I think all artists or any aspiring musician, it can, can feel hope in that and think, you know, if it's coming from an honest place and I'm really connected to the music it totally transforms the playing. And, and to trust that, that it's okay to be your own voice and that you don't have to fit into any particular category. And actually, as soon as you start becoming yourself, that's when people resonate with you more, or you connect even more. And it's, it's a very amazing experience when you start doing that because just even in performances, the kind of the response I get when I'm just totally playing myself and not, not sort of thinking, oh, I must make sure I do this, or, you know, that teacher's told me to do this, I've got to do this. You know, as soon as you just start trusting, I know what I want to do and I know I can do it, the whole game changes. So, and I think that's what's happened, and I think that's how the album has come around because I was so, I was so in love with Kapustin, and I just, I think at the time I'd only learned a few of the études, and the record label heard me play and they just said, we love this, we want to sign you and just do a whole album of it. And I was like, but I was just playing, I wasn't even like, I was doing a recording, but it wasn't like a commercial recording., and they were involved in the project. And, um, uh, I wasn't feeling particularly well on the day, and I was just like, oh, you know what, it's fine, it's— I'm just going to play my best and, you know, just kind of be myself. I can't do anything other than be myself, really. And they just absolutely loved it, and I thought, oh my God, like, I wasn't competing, you know, there wasn't any kind of formality I was just playing how I would normally play, and, or I was just playing me. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Yeah.

But, you know, it must have been really hard work to get there, I am sure. But at the same time, how fortunate that being able to find, you know, your ways. And it took, yeah, it must have took a lot of courage too sometimes.

Yeah. And I'm still, I'm still working through that, you know, and I think there might be a point I think where— I think as artists you'll always have to do that because there'll always be someone that might have something negative to say, which is very normal. We all have to understand that. And, you know, there'll always be people that will have expectations of what you should be doing or how you should be playing or what repertoire you should be playing. And I think you've just got to lean into the feeling of, of the music that you play. And if it feels right, if it lights you up, if it gets you out of bed, then that's what you should be playing, you know. And, and it's okay to do that, like, it's okay to follow that and trust that, you know. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I think— yes. Yeah. Wow, but that, that's amazing. So I can't really wait for the album to come because You know, thank you. Yeah, that, that's like the really one of the— you said it's not a pinnacle, it's just a, you know, one of the process. But I think, yeah, but at the same time, it's like the product, right? You produce, you're producing something with all the hard work. So I want to know what exactly you will be playing in the album, for the album. So you said, are you doing all 8 concert etudes?

Yes, I'm doing all the etudes, um, and I've recorded them now, so they're done. Yeah. So it took about, uh, it's interesting actually, the recording process. Um, there's kind of mixed, mixed ideas about how it should be done, you know. So some people say you should get it done in a day, try and do it in a day. Others are saying, no, no, it takes a week, you know, you've got to have a whole week. So I thought, I'll go for the middle, I'll go for 3 days. So I gave myself 3 days to record all of them and we got it all done and that was amazing. And yeah, kind of looking forward to hearing them all, you know, together and once they're mastered and everything and just hearing the final product would be fantastic. So I'm also recording 7 preludes. But yeah, I've—

yeah.

From, um, uh, ranging kind of from number 5 up to 23. So there's a mixture, a mixture of them there, and I've chosen specific ones, kind of back to my point of which ones make me feel— how do they make me feel when I really play them and really listen to them, and which ones am I most passionate about. But I also felt it was important to maybe include some that if you hadn't heard Kapustin's music before, these are good starting points. These are really— this is Kapustin, you know, kind of like the one that— for my own taste anyway, because some of his music can also become quite contemporary. There's a lot that's almost slightly atonal in style, um, like the tonal centre is quite hard to pinpoint. And I thought, I don't want to choose anything that's going to be too inaccessible for both jazz and classical audiences. So I've chosen some of, I think, my favorite ones. And then I've also— I'm also recording 4 standalone solo pieces.

I'm not really familiar with those.

Yeah, they're wonderful. I think if you want to first start playing Kapustin, they're probably the best repertoire to start with. I mean, the etudes are great, you know, if you, if you have kind of, uh, if you're ready for the challenge and the kind of the technical aspect of it, great. But if you want to learn more like songs or just nice pieces, they're really great to start. So, uh, there's one called Big Band Sounds, which actually was written— Kapustin originally wrote it for big band and piano, and I'm hoping to do performances of that soon.

So that, yeah, that was like literally the big band.

Yes. Yeah. Oh wow. Yeah. So that would be fantastic. But he, he then rewrote it for solo piano. So, um, that would be fantastic. And then there's also a few, um, slower, more reflective pieces, one called Contemplation, another called Ballad, which actually doesn't have, as far as I'm aware, doesn't have a commercial recording for yet. So that's really exciting. So that'll sort of be a yeah, premiere of that, which is really great. And I'm also doing a paraphrase on a famous Brazilian piece called Aquarela do Brasil. So totally different from his other repertoire. It's so, so Brazilian. It's a samba piece. And I again wanted the audience to hear so much versatility and show everything that he does— big band, preludes, études, Brazil, you know, samba, contemplate, you know, really contemplative music as well. And I'm give— I've given myself a bit of a challenge of also learning, um, one of his two piano pieces, and I'm recording both parts myself. And that is a paraphrase on Dizzy Gillespie's 'Manteca.' So yeah, that's really— that's a huge challenge, actually. I think that's probably going to be the most challenging one, and also one that I'm most curious to see how the audience respond to it, especially the jazz audience, because it is a very famous jazz piece by one of the biggest jazz artists that's ever lived. And it's going to be really fascinating to see what they think of that. And I'm studying really carefully the original recordings of The Manteca, lots of different recordings from Dizzy with different bands and, um, yeah, loads of different recordings from that to make my own interpretation as, as I would want it. Um, so that's really exciting. Yeah, but that's, that's quite a big challenge. So I think in total there's going to be about 21 tracks. Oh my goodness. Yes, I think so. I think that's everything. I'm trying to think if there's anything I've left off. No, I think that's about— yeah, I think it'll be about 21. So It's gonna be a lot of work, and it's crazy how it's all just coming together and just happening. And I think what I'm learning as well as a recording artist is that once you've actually recorded, you're still going to be playing this repertoire. But I'm also playing the repertoire in such a different way since the recording, and it's that evolution of your playing, of my playing. Yeah. And I think I think that's what's really fascinating to learn about this journey is that I— people will come and see my performances, and although they're still the same pieces, my evolution, my growth as a musician will be in a different place from when I actually recorded. And, um, it's, it's almost like they'll get a very different experience from coming to watch me live. And I think that's exciting though. I think that's a really nice thing to embrace that you can, you know, there's the product, there's the album, that's the tracks, but you'll get something totally different. So come and see me, you know. Um, and, and I'm actually just about to do a first performance of, um, uh, arrangements of the etus with drums and bass. So forming my own trio, which is, yeah, based on one of the etus. Yeah, yeah. So, so, um, when I first started learning the music, I obviously came across a great pianist called Frank Dupree, who's recorded a huge amount of Capustin.

Oh yes, I think I just heard his Piano Concerto, uh, number 4.

Yes, yes, yeah, he's just released a new album, and, and he— one of his first Capustin albums was his trio arrangement of Kapustin, and they're fantastic. And I think that's given again even more evidence of that this music can be played in such a different way.

And it's almost like a Piazzolla, makes me think of a sort of Piazzolla, right?

Yes, very much. And I think it's a really exciting feature, and although the album isn't going to have any you know, trio arrangements. I'm looking forward to putting that into my performances and giving the audiences a whole nother taste of his music. So it's amazing how artistry can develop so quickly, and you can constantly come up with new ideas. And already, you know, if you come and talk to me again in 3 months, I'll probably have another idea, and it would have changed again. It's just so exciting, really exciting.

I mean, even just learning, you know, Kapustin's music for the first time, I'm just like playing. And usually when it's like a classical repertoire, I can really hear it while looking at the score. This is— it's supposed to be— but Kapustin, I need a little bit more time. For one thing is because I don't have the jazz background, but also I don't necessarily hear it by just looking at the score. Does that—

yes.

Do you experience that?

Um, I think at first I had to work on that as well. Um, and I think the difficulty with it is because of the way it's drawn rhythmically. And because, because as classical musicians, we aren't sort of used to reading rhythm in that, in that way. And I've had to take his music to— I've taken his music to so many different jazz musicians, and they say to me, well, this is a funk rhythm, you know, this is how you need to play it, and you need to play it with a metronome on the offbeats, and you need to play it with a drummer, you know, you can't play it like a classical musician on the downbeats, it's got to be syncopated, and I think for musicians who aren't so accustomed to listening to jazz or playing any jazz, it can be quite disorientating, and they can't always settle into the groove and understand how to read that kind of groove. Puss in Boots, there's just so many notes. It's just— there's just so many. I feel like it's more of a rhythmical thing that people need to study more or kind of explore more, become more comfortable with, and then the notes kind of fall into place. So if I were to suggest to anyone how to start any Kapustin repertoire, because it can feel daunting, start by understanding what the rhythm is and almost write the rhythm out or clap the rhythm or write down 1 and 2 and, or 1 and 2, you know, all tiny digits, figure it out, understand what the time signature is. Okay, so if there are 16 semiquavers, but you're not going to want to hear all the semiquavers, you know, we want to divide that up, then that's when you get the metronome out. Then you say, okay, it's got to be on beat 2 and beat 4, and then get used to playing that, because as classical musicians, we would never practice really with an offbeat metronome. Um, it takes a lot of time to be able to feel comfortable with that, but as soon as you get it, it kind of— it, it sinks in and it really helps, really helps with your rhythm. So that's how I would— that's kind of my advice of how to approach it. And as soon as you start understanding jazz harmony as well— so I do think you need to study a little bit about jazz harmony, and you'll start noticing that the shapes your hands make are the voicings of what would be appropriate for the jazz chords. So try to play any form of maybe slightly easier jazz repertoire. Like, I love— there's a composer who is UK-based called Nikki Isles, and she's a fantastic jazz pianist, and her music is super It kind of ranges from sort of around Grade 3 right up to advanced. So it's really great for anyone that's not as advanced with jazz and wants to just start playing jazz repertoire that's written. If you want to look for something before Kapustin, that's a really good entry point. And then you can start sort of understand— once you've kind of worked on the rhythm, you can understand, okay, where is the melody? Is there a melody here? And how can I find that? But I think the amazing thing about Kabusin is that you can, in some pieces, you can just decide yourself where the melody is. That's what I felt. And yeah, that's what I've really felt. And I think there's so much room to just interpret it as you would like. And that's the joy of it. And that's what gives me the freedom. 'Actually, I think there's a voice here,' or 'I think there's a voice here,' you know, like, 'Why don't we bring out the thumb in the left hand like you would sometimes in classical repertoire? But why can't we do it here as well?' You know, there's nothing to stop me from doing that. So you can make a lot of choices yourself, and I haven't had anyone— I've had not very many professors say, 'No, no, don't do it like that,' you know. It's— yeah, it's, it's working well.

So tell me more of yourself, and we'll get back to Kapustin again, you know. But yes, yeah, yeah, it's interesting, like, because you were like, for college you were playing classical guitar, and I think you, yeah, you were also playing double bass, you know.

Yes, yes.

So that's a jazz, jazz double bass, or both? Both.

Yeah, so I was in jazz bands growing up and I was also a classical— yes, yes. So although, although I've had— it's funny because I still don't think I've had super, super jazz training, not as a pianist, definitely more as a bassist for sure. And also I'm starting— I think even just this week I was reflecting a lot on my background background and I'm trying to become more aware of my identity, you know, of just the type of musician I am. And I was thinking to myself, I actually did a lot of transcription, and that's a really big thing in the jazz training. So, so yeah, so, so when I was, um, when I was— oh gosh, I went to a music specialist Catholic girls' school when I was 11. And the music was amazing there. And I did— I was in every ensemble going. I was in all the choirs. I was in every violin orchestra, the principal orchestras. I was in the jazz band, the guitar ensemble, everything. I just, I just couldn't not do every, every ensemble they had. And, um, double bass came along because I'd already reached a good level on the guitar, and I was playing bass guitar You know, the double bass is a real endangered species. There aren't that many double bassists. I mean, obviously now in the industry you meet more and more, but growing up it's quite rare to play the double bass. And the school I was at at the time were very encouraging of it, and they gave me a double bass and gave me lessons, and I just kind of, you know, picked it up straight away because of everything that I had done before. And I'd love playing that. And then, yeah, when I was 16 15, 16, my piano teacher at the time passed away.

So he—

yeah, so I'd reached a good level. I think I was working on a diploma or whatever, and, um, and then he just— he passed away quite suddenly. And I found myself being really encouraged with the guitar and the double bass, and all my solo opportunities at school were all on the guitar. And I thought, okay, well I think I've had enough of the classical world though. I wanna, I wanna do something else, you know. And the Brit School was in my town and I thought, okay, I'm gonna go there. But it was such a transition from where I had just been and it was completely the other way. And I'd gone from this really quite strict classical— well, not mostly classical, but very traditional, uh, educational setting to total opposite. Everyone's smoking, you know, like wearing their own clothes, like really, whoa, okay. And I felt, oh my God, I don't know if I should be here. I don't know if I should be here. You know, like I've obviously gained a place. It's really hard to get in, like thousands of kids apply. And I was, I was really pleased to get to go. But then when I was there, I was like, I don't know if I fit here because I, I've come from such a different place. And then I decided, um, when I was 18, I thought, okay, I'm gonna go and study classical guitar at university, which I did, and I was still playing bass a lot. So piano had kind of just gone to the side slightly for a bit. I was still playing, but I wasn't having many lessons. Um, and then when I finished my undergrad in guitar and double bass, uh, because of my mum's connections with The Piano, I kind of found myself with a full-time job teaching piano, you know. I'd had so— she— there was so much work available for me as a young musician who's just finished, um, and it was great security. And then I realized actually I'd kind of neglected the piano a little bit. And, um, yeah, so when I was about 21, I was like, okay, I'm gonna kind of go back to my own studying of it and, and really focus. And then my whole, whole world just changed, really. Like, I, I kind of rekindled this love that I'd always had. But, but perhaps because the passing of a teacher, you know, you kind of feel a bit, uh, left, you know. It's quite a, quite an unusual experience when you've just hit that point and you're playing really advanced repertoire and then the teacher that you've trusted just goes, and you're— and I was also navigating a different school, and, you know, and my, yeah, my identity was changing, you know. You'd be like, I don't know who I am, you know, a teenager, it's really difficult. And, um, yeah, and then when I was 21, I kind of, uh, threw myself back into my own training of piano, and then now we're here. So it's just, it's just, uh been a very unusual, yeah, journey to kind of come—

journey. What a journey. But thank you for sharing your story because, yeah, but you know, I was thinking about double bass. I wish I had some sort of an experience with that because what I struggle, try to play jazzy stuff, or when I was even taking a few lessons from this jazz pianist in New York, Jim Riddle, whom I also interviewed in first season, season 1. And he's an incredible jazz pianist. And then what I struggled was the bass line. So he would say, boom, boom, boom, boom, you know, then he do this. I'm like, I hear it, but I can't do it. But when I saw somebody would play this, you know, humongous chords like Rachmaninoff and I play this, I can do it, right? I can hear it. But that bass line, I cannot improvise. I cannot do it.

Yes. I think that's interesting actually, because obviously with Kapustin's music, there is that bass, like, although there's chords, you know, and there's a lot of left-hand voicing. So you're not always just playing a singular note, but because I played so much bass in different styles as well, you know, so it wasn't just fingerstyle, it was also with the bow. I do, I really resonated with the lower register and I was also an alto, you know, so, so I was singing always the lower register and it's made me very comfortable playing all the, all the left hand really in Kapustin. It just kind of— I voice it as if it is bass, you know. So definitely having had all those years of bass playing helps, has helped significantly, I think. The only thing I really wish that I had had were drum lessons. And although I think my rhythmical sense, probably from being a bassist and playing with drummers when I was at the Brit, we— I was constantly playing with drummers. So I think I have— do have that, but I would have loved to have done that as well. It's not too late though, you know, maybe I could take some.

Yeah, never too late. Next time I— maybe you come back here and say, hey, I just picked up on Yes, yes.

I did have this crazy idea of kind of like recording my own trio ensembles of Paboustin and just teaching myself the drums. Yeah, yeah.

But, you know, idea of making this piano solo into this jazz band stuff, it just blows my mind.

Yeah.

Did somebody suggest you to do it or Is it coming from the inspiration of his music?

Oh, definitely his music. So, so I think what's really— what was really funny was that as soon as I started really studying Kapustin, I, I knew immediately I wanted to play this music with a live drummer immediately. So I did contact a drummer, like within a week. I was like, could you, you know, do you want to collaborate? Can we play this together? And it sounds incredible. And then when I was doing even more research, I then discovered Frank's album and I was like, oh, okay, so this is happening, this is actually happening. And it kind of gave me the courage to think, I can do that as well then. Like, you know, if he's— if Frank has done this and kind of set this, set this scene of you can do these interpretations, go for it. Obviously there'll be Frank's and these will be mine. So we won't do things, you know, in the same way. We have a very artistic difference, and I think that's what's really nice is that you can still do arrangements and they can be totally different. Um, but he was kind of that, that, um, confidence. And now we've become good friends, and, you know, we talk about Kapustin a lot, and I've said, oh, can you give me suggestion? You know, how could I maybe work on this interpretation? You know, what could we do? And spoke to his drummer and his bassist as well, and kind of getting more and more advice. And I'm playing his— I'm now playing capoeira music with different drummers as well to get different ideas. You know, I've gone to a samba specialist to learn really about the rhythm of Brazil and how to study that more. And I think that's really important as an artist to just keep learning. You know, it doesn't, doesn't stop just when you've, when you're doing concerts, when you've reached a point where you're actually doing concerts and doing an album. It doesn't mean that you can't still learn and network with other musicians who you could still learn from. It's just so much more, and I can't wait to see by the end of the Masters what more I've learned about different approaches and different interpretations and all the different musicians that will have different ideas. So it's super exciting.

And so what made you decide to go back to school?

Yes. Well, okay, so, so speaking very, very, um, honestly and quite vulnerably, um, I found myself, um, over the last year going through a difficult separation from marriage.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Yes. Oh no, it's fine, it's fine. And I'm, I'm, I'm in a place where I'm happy to share it, and I, I hope that, uh, it can help people who are listening as well, you know, just kind of, uh, deepen connection really. And so, so I kind of committed myself to just working as a professional musician and, and was performing, teaching, doing lots of accompanying, um, obviously started playing a bit of the capoeira as well. And then, yeah, found myself in this obviously quite difficult situation where I'm now, you know, nearly divorced and having to really rebuild my life a lot. And, and it was during that process where I thought, I think I want a few years to just focus on me and to, and to really do what I love. And at the same time, so in the midst of the very difficult separation, I had received the record offer, the contract, and then it prompted me, okay, well, if I've got this opportunity, I'd really like to be in a place where that's going to be mentored and supported. And, and I hadn't had those years just for the piano in an institution, it had been the guitar, you know. And I thought, I think I owe it to myself to really do what I would— what I want to do at this stage, you know, because my whole life had just completely changed from what I was expecting to happen. So that's really, you know, an honest answer, you know, that's, that's kind of how it's, how it's come around. And I never thought I would do a master's. I kind of did the undergrad and thought, I'm just gonna work, you know. I've, I've, I feel like I'm going to learn a lot from working. And I was very lucky that I've been really busy and really successful as a professional. But I thought, you know, when, when something like that happens in your life and it all just completely changes, you start thinking, what is it that I really, really want to do? Or, or what could I do now that I know is what I need to do for myself. I almost have— I've almost just said I need to put myself first, and I need to spend time reconnecting with my music, you know, reconnecting with myself, you know, finding out who I am. Because I was in— it was a very, very long relationship. Um, so it's interesting how Music, especially Kapustin, has really been there during this time as well. And, and the album is a— the album is a result of this period of my life. You know, when, when, when things happen and your life changes, sometimes there's only one thing that stays, and whatever that one thing is, that's the thing that you need to lean, and it was my music, you know. It was the only thing that was giving me comfort. It was, it was helping me process. And, uh, it's interesting that Kapustin was that music, you know. It was— it's almost like the, the structure of his music helped, made sense during a time that was complicated, you know, and the extreme focus that require— that you need to have when you play his music really helped kind of channel things for me. But, uh, I think what's interesting is that I play his music very emotionally, and it's not something that maybe you would immediately associate with Poustin if you'd only ever heard it for the first time. It's not like Rachmaninoff, you know, it's not heart on the sleeve music. Well, you wouldn't think it is, but for me it really is. For me, it's— I'm very emotionally connected to it, and it, it's carried me through some really difficult times. So yeah, sorry, it's quite heavy.

No, no, no, this is a very important thing.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's, I think it's, I think it's just important to be honest. And, and to, uh, you know, accept that music is this foundation for a lot of people, you know. And, and I know it's not just me. Like, I know that since kind of sharing this story with people, there's been so many people that have reached out to me and said, I feel like I've gone through exactly the same thing, you know. Like, I could Music has been so important to me during difficult times, and, and it can be really life-changing. So yeah, so The Masters was kind of a result, I feel, you know, the, the album. It's all— it all kind of came so organically during such difficult time. So yeah, I think, I think I just have to— that's why I thought I'm just going to follow this. And just see, see what happens. Like, not be tethered to an outcome, you know, not kind of have any huge expectation of, of, oh, I hope it does well. It's almost like, well, I'm playing it because I needed to play it, you know, because it's kept me going. And that, and that's it. And I've been able to connect with myself through the music. So to anyone that's listening, I think, I think I just, you know, would, would love to kind of offer that sense of, um, trusting that things like music or art or anything where you feel like you can really express something in words that can't be said, do it, you know. Just trust that that will help you. Because that's how it's been for me. So I hope that makes sense.

Oh, totally. Thank you so much for sharing this and vulnerability, showing your vulnerability, but that is the strength. And, uh, yeah, beautiful. Thank you. So like, no wonder the music of Kapustin really spoke to you in so many levels, right? It's not just one thing.

So Yes, yeah, yeah. I think, I think when you become deeply connected with a particular music, you, you kind of have to— it's, it's helpful to understand why, and it's helpful to understand the journey of yourself and why you, why you love this music. And, um, and as I've said, like, it helps you show that to people that are listening. And that they can hopefully connect to themselves when listening. And that's really what it is, you know. I think, I think when you hear a performer and you're moved by them, it's because they're doing that. It's because they're connect— they're so connected with what they're playing, and it's helping you connect with your own experience when you're listening to them. So I think that though that's that kind of special quality when you watch a performance that you hope to experience. And I'm hoping to keep doing that, keep learning about that. And, you know, I'm so inspired when I see musicians that do the same, that do that, so that have that quality in their playing. And, uh, it's just trusting that, that works. I've said the word trust so much.

I know, but you're doing it. That's That's amazing. So I want to know the title of the upcoming album.

Yes. Yeah. So it's called Between the Lines.

Between the Lines.

Yes. The Past in Between the Lines. Okay.

Where does this title come from?

It's— there were a few other titles and I kind of sat on a few things for a while and I thought, I've got to be able to, to say in the COVID that although this music is this cross, it is this fusion, so there's the betweenness there, but also let's read between the lines of what this music is about and also read between the lines of why I'm playing this music, you know, and it, it's really not just an album about here's the notes, it's actually about what's in between the notes, what's the story of my life that's been happening, and I want to show you in, I want to show you in that. So I think it was, it was almost like that phrase of read between the lines, you know, you, can you, can you pick up what else is going on here? And can you emotionally see other layers? I hope that will be the outcome anyway, you know. I think I'm just— I'm, you know, that's, that's kind of my vision, or how I would like it, how I would like it to receive. But, you know, again, I'm not kind of tethered to any huge expectation. I'm just enjoying the process. But, uh, I think the album title works well. I think it feels comfortable for me and and it's quite a personal choice, you know. I think there was the choice of like volume, you know, Volume 1, because then it could mean I could do another one, you know, Volume 2, you know. And I thought, oh, I could say something like that. Or jazz meets classical. I thought, okay, that's a nice one, but also almost quite too explicit. And I think, I think I like how Between the Lines opens up 'Okay, what does she really mean?' You know, I'm not going to share the actual cover yet, but the COVID also has that unusual quality to it, and it kind of leaves you wondering, 'Who is this person, and what is her story here?' And it's not your traditional classical album cover. So I'm hoping to share it. I, I don't want to share it just yet though, because I'm kind of waiting for it to be signed off and, you know, kind of with the release. When the release is out, then everyone will see it. But that's been a really exciting part actually of thinking, oh my God, you know, I'm gonna have my face on a cover, and how do I— what story do I want to tell here? Like, what do I want to say? Because your, your first album is kind of like your entry card into the industry, and it's, it's really, it is really like your business card of like, here I am. It's, it's, it's introducing you, introducing you. So, so it, you do want to, you do want to think about it and think about how, how, what do you want people to think, or how do you want to challenge people. And I definitely wanted to come away from just, uh, something more generic I think I wanted to, I wanted to do something that felt right for me. And, and the responses I've had so far, just showing kind of friends and colleagues, they have been like, okay, that's different. And I'm like, well, yeah, they're like, but it's, it's good. It's you. It feels very you. And I'm like, well, that's it. You know, it's, it's about me as an artist. So yeah, it's so exciting.

I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait to see it. So what kind of legacy, Kapustin's legacy, do you want to carry in your performance and also in the album?

Yes. Oh, that's a really good question. I think the— if we go back, right back to when Kapustin first discovered jazz, he was in his late teens. Jazz was pretty prohibited in, uh, I think at that point, I think he was in Russia when he first listened to it because he was studying. He was studying, so he had already moved from the Ukraine and he was at the Moscow Conservatoire. And I think it was when he was studying at the Moscow Conservatoire that him and his friends, um, were kind of illegally listening to an American radio station. And they first heard jazz through the station. And it was almost that like rebellious nature of Kapustin that I love. And through discovering him more and learning more about him, I realized that actually when he was young, he was quite rebellious and he was like a cheeky boy, you know, and he'd often want to go against kind of what was told of him. And although he was a very good student and he, he was a virtuoso pianist, there was that spirit inside him. And I think I would like for that sort of freedom and that slight rebellious nature to still be carried through. And that's what I would love to share in, in the album and kind of carry that spirit across of, yes, he is this amazing virtuoso pianist, but there is this essence to him, and that's why, uh, that's why his music is so fantastic, because he didn't do what everyone else was doing. Um, he was so authentic. He was just doing exactly the music he wanted to write, and people loved it. And I think it's keeping that spirit alive and not putting him in any category, I think is really important. I don't know how he would feel himself, you know, but it's what I would like to leave of his legacy for sure. Yeah.

Wow, thank you. Before we wrap up, sadly it's toward the end of our conversation, but let's take a moment to promote your work officially and then, you know, you can maybe mention about your upcoming concerts and obviously about the album too. So I'm sure our listeners will be really excited to learn more about you. So where can they find you? Maybe website? So yes, the floor is yours. So take it away, please.

Yeah, sure, sure. So, so at the moment I'm mostly performing in the UK, but hopefully when the album is launched, there will be more international performances and more international platforms. Um, but at the moment you can connect with me really on social media. I'm mostly Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, those kind of platforms. Okay, yes, TikTok. Yes, Kapustin is doing really well on TikTok. It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, the, the, the following I'm getting there is better than Instagram at the moment. It's really impressive. So, so definitely if your listeners are more interested in hearing Kapustin Czech you know, see what's on TikTok for sure. There's some great things there.

What is your handle?

Uh, it's just Ophelia Gordon, I think, on TikTok. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then on Instagram? Yes, yeah. And then I have my website, which is just opheliagordon.com. Um, uh, and, and my email again you can all find on my website and just reach out. And if you, uh, want to know more about Proustine, or you want to know more about me as an artist, or, um, yeah, you know, interested in collaborating, or if you have questions or anything, you know, I'm always open to meeting new musicians, new people, and just seeing kind of seeing what can happen. And yes, that's it really. Yeah. And then so the album itself as well will be released on Spotify, Amazon, iTunes, all the kind major streaming platforms. Um, and then also will be— you can— you'll be able to buy it direct from the record label's website, which is— so the label I'm, uh, uh, recording with is called Divine Arts Recording, and it's a— it's a subsidiary— subsidiary of, um, Naxos, which is, uh, they're kind of the distributor. So if you kind of follow that— that lead, you'll be able to find Divine Arts but they do specialize in lots of contemporary repertoire. So it's really, it's really exciting to be kind of one of— they have a few jazz albums, but they've obviously never recorded Kapustin before. So I'm really looking forward to being the first Kapustin album within their catalog. So that's really exciting. But yeah, I hope that gives people ways to find me.

Yeah, I'm sure. And then I will list all the links in the show notes as well. So yeah, now I didn't tell you, but before we go, we usually have this rapid-fire questions where I ask each guest silly questions and you have to answer them, each question in as short responses as possible, and no question— no explanation is needed. But before we go, do you have any last thing you want to say, or Well, thank you to you, Yukimi, for having me.

It's been so lovely talking, and I hope that, I hope that everyone has understood what I said, you know, because, you know, when you just talk, yeah, sometimes you think, I hope people are understanding what I'm saying.

Loud and clear, we understood you. And then, yeah, good, good.

And, um, yeah, and I'm just so excited for what's to come and And, uh, yeah, I hope I've connected with people that have been listening and, you know, and yeah, thank you again so much for having me. It's been so nice talking to you and, you know, you've been so warm and sorry I've spoken so much.

No, this is great. That's why I created this platform. I want you to speak and thank you so much for sharing all, all your stories, but also your expertise. I learned a lot. It was a masterclass. So, bravi to you.

Thank you.

So let's get into this rapid fire, right? Yeah. All right.

So we'll start with—

Yeah, we'll start with easy ones and then get to some more advanced ones. So question number 1, what is your comfort food?

Spaghetti Bolognese.

Yes. Good one. Yes. How do you like your coffee in the morning? Milky.

Yeah.

Great. Cats or dogs? Cats. Cats. Do you have a cat?

Um, no, actually I don't at the moment. I have a dog, but I can't wait to get a cat.

Oh, poor you. Poor dog. I know. All right. Sunrise or sunset?

Oh, that's hard. Sunrise. Sunrise.

Summer or winter?

Summer. Yeah.

What skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?

Should I say the drums? That's right.

Yes. To me, it's jazz piano. So yes.

Playing the drums.

What is your word or words to live by?

Just be yourself. I think that's the right thing. Yeah. If I'm being very Play. Yeah. Just be yourself.

What is the most important quality you look for in other people? Honesty.

Always. Yeah. Honesty, authenticity, honesty, for sure.

Name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead.

Okay. So I love a British pianist called Joanna McGregor. She's quite known for her Piazzolla and Bach interpretations. She's really inspiring for me. Oh gosh, who else? You know, David Bowie? David Bowie as well, for his artistry. I'm like, he's just, he's the most authentic kind of case you could think of. So hugely inspired by him. And, and Rachmaninoff. I would say, yeah, for that vulnerability, for sure. And, and kind of the, the way he rose and wrote the Second Concerto after his depression, like, what an inspiration. Like, his story of his life is just incredible. So I think those three people, yeah, which actually is not what I was expecting to say, but there you go.

Yeah, there you go. But you know, that was done with what felt Somebody just named David Bowie as one of the 3 people. So yeah, he's the reason again. All right. Name one piece in your current playlist.

Oh, um, oh my goodness. Oh, that's so hard. That's probably the hardest question actually. Um, you know, I've, I've been re-listening again to Rachmaninoff's Cello Sonata.

Oh, good one. I love—

yeah, I love, I love. I did start working on it and I hope to play that.

Yeah, actually, the last movement. Oh, The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with— then of course the cello, but gorgeous.

Yeah, yeah, so beautiful. Yeah, so that's on my list. I've got a big list, but that's one that stood out for me today. Okay, yeah, great.

Yeah, so the last question, fill in the blank. Music is blank.

Music is life.

Good one. Classic. Beautiful.

Yes, it is. But it absolutely is. It really is. You can't have life without music.

That's right.

Music is my life.

So wonderful.

You know, it's not just what you do, it is actually who you are. You know, lots of people's cases, in my case So there you go.

There you go. Thank you. So that concludes this episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Ophelia Gordon. Thank you, Ophelia, for joining us today and sharing your incredible stories and insights and expertise. To our wonderful audience, you can learn more about Ophelia and her work by visiting her website at opheliagordon.com and follow her on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok @opheliagordon. And of course, thank you to our faithful fans and listeners for tuning in. If you If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up and subscribe to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song on YouTube. And don't forget to share and then review this episode on your social media and tag The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. It's one of the best ways to help us grow, and we would love to hear your feedback. For the latest piano news and updates, be sure to follow The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song on Substack, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn. I will see for the next episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Ophelia. Thank you, Ophelia.

Thank you, Yukimi Song.

Thank you. Bye everyone. Thank you.