Season 5 Episode 17: "Inside the World of Górecki: Exploring Górecki’s Piano Music" feat....

Welcome back to another episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Today, I am beyond thrilled to welcome two extraordinary guests: Jarrett Dunn, an internationally acclaimed pianist, researcher, and champion of Henryk Mikulaj Górecki's piano works, and Anna Górecka, a renowned concert pianist, professor, and the daughter of Górecki himself. Górecki's music has held a special place in my heart for over two decades. I first encountered his Symphony No. 3 more than 20 years ago while visiting a friend's home. She introduced me to this hauntingly beautiful piece. The moment I heard the music, I was completely struck. I had never heard anything like it before. The raw emotion and simplicity, the weight of the soundscape—it was a revelation. And now, fast forward to today, I have the privilege of introducing you to a lesser-known but deeply moving side of Gretzky's music: his piano works. In this episode, we will explore the legacy of Henryk McWhy Gretzky beyond Symphony No. 3. Anna's personal memories of her father, his creative process, his philosophy on music, and what he was like as a person. Jared's journey—how moving from North America to Poland changed his artistry and deepened his connection to Górecki's music. The creation of their new album, Górecki's World of Piano, featuring a world premiere recording of an unpublished Górecki's piano works. The importance of intercultural collaboration and discovering new music. Henrik Gretzky is widely known for his Third Symphony, but his piano works remain largely undiscovered by the mainstream audience. So today, we're here to learn more about his vast musical contributions and legacy. But before we dive in, I want to take a moment to share something important with you. Creating this podcast, curating meaningful conversations, Producing high-quality content and growing our reach takes an incredible amount of time and resources. If you have been enjoying these episodes and believe in the mission of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, I invite you to support this work by becoming a paid subscriber on Substack at thepianopod.substack.com. Your support helps sustain and grow this platform, making it possible for us to continue highlighting diverse voices, exploring creative journeys, and expanding the conversation around classical and genre-crossing music. Even a small contribution goes a long way. This episode is truly a special one, so please sit back, immerse yourself in the world of Goretzky, and join me in welcoming Jarrett Dunn and Anna Goretzka to The Piano Pod.

Please enjoy the show.

You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest with the minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the future and thriving in a complex, ever-evolving world. Welcome to The Piano Pod with Jarrod and Anna. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show today. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here. So where are you joining us from today, Jarrod, first?

I'm in Montreal at home. And Anna?

I'm in Katowice at home. Yes. Oh, wow. Beautiful.

Far away, far away, far away. But you see, we can get together like this. It's just so— it always amazes me. But thank you for being here. So, Jared, we've been talking about this interview since last fall, and now it's finally happening. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you both. And Anna, your father Henrik Goretsky's music has touched so many lives. And then at the beginning of this episode, I shared my personal connection to his, particularly Symphony No. 3. Yes, a piece that left a profound impression on me when I was— when I first heard it decades ago, actually. And then when— yes, when Jared and I started planning this episode and I discovered that you would be joining us today as well, and then so You know, I mean, when I heard that you are Maestro Gretzky's daughter, I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, really, it's true. So having the chance to hear your personal story, insights, and experiences makes this conversation incredibly special. So as our listeners tune in, by the time this episode goes out, they are stepping into something extraordinary, which is your collaboration, new album, Gretzky's World of Piano, is officially out, right? Yep. Congratulations. Yes, I hope so. Now, it means so much that you chose The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song to share this news and talk about this album. So I can't wait to hear all about it. So before we dive into the details, give us a glimpse inside this project. What inspired it? And what journey do you hope to take listeners on through this music? Jared, would you like to start first?

Sure. Same story as you, Yukimi. The first time I heard the Third Symphony, I was overwhelmed. And the first time I heard the Piano Concerto, which was Anna's recording, and the Sonata, which I believe was also Anna's recording, I mean, I knew about this music from a young age. I feel really lucky to have known about it. And I wanted people— when I planned this album, I wanted people to have that same experience of hearing it if it's for the first time. From pianists who have really studied it carefully and know very much what's at the heart of each score, because the piano music is on the periphery of Górecki's music. We have the big symphonies, choral works, and chamber music. But the piano music is still really beautiful and really worth giving attention to. And actually, I think it was my first experience hearing Górecki was the concerto. The piano concerto was first, which is, which is not everybody's experience. But therefore, when I met Anna in person, I was kind of starstruck the first time, and I was really nervous.

And— I have the same, starstruck right now.

Of course, yeah, because I know she'll probably hate that I'm saying this, so I'm going to skip over that point. But when we met, we formed really quickly a connection through, I think it was Chopin ballads and the Liszt Sonata I was playing for her.

Yeah, it was Liszt Sonata, the first lesson was Liszt Sonata.

And I remember thinking, like I remember the details of that first lesson, which is more than 10 years ago now. And it made such an impression on me. It was the same like when I heard her recording. And this is what distinguished it for me, and I hope the listeners feel when they hear our album. It feels like you're hearing a live concert. It does not feel like a doctored recording. And the goal in playing it is to make sure the impression of giving a concert is maintained. That's what I love so much about recordings. I don't like so much editing. It's fine. Everybody at some point has to make an album with edits, but I vastly prefer just playing live and letting people hear the raw, unedited music. So back to the goal of the album, it grew out of my doctoral research, and then I got a huge grant to do it, thanks to the Canadian Arts Council. So I approached Anna, and I thought, gee, she's done this so many times, so much Gurevich, why is she going to want to do another Gurevich album? And to my surprise and delight, she agreed almost before I could finish the sentence, "Yes, we can play together." It was amazing. So that— the spirit of the cooperation has always been one of musical friendship and admiration for what music really is.

So I consider myself very, very lucky. Wonderful. Anna, would you like to add anything?

Yes, I remember our first lesson very well too. I must say I was really impressed by Uh, by his determination to change the whole life and to move to Poland. I was surprised because, you know, I don't think, uh, uh, here is something really worth ruining everything else. Yeah. But I was extremely happy because I felt during these lessons in Warsaw, it was a masterclass. I felt that we can do something together. Something nice and that he's very open-minded and he's very gifted and he's, uh, he would be a perfect student there. So that happened, that happened. And we had, uh, we had several nice years and, uh, and Jared's graduation was something really big and he played really big repertoire and really it was fun. Thank you, Jared.

Of course. Wow. So, you know, you guys have this special bond as what it started as a teacher-student relationship, and now you guys collaborate together. And that's something that I really want to dig into later in the episode. But now let's keep this conversation going with your father, Henrich. Gretzky, Mr. Gretzky. So I'd love for you both to introduce us to him. Maybe, you know, for some listeners, they may have not yet discovered his wonderful, amazing music. So not just as a composer, but as an artist with a unique musical voice. Anna, would you like to start?

Yes, thank you. It's very difficult for me because You know, I think most people start with Third Symphony. And I think it's a perfect way of getting closer to his music, of course, because it's— the piece is extremely important and very touching. You know, the basic thing, I think. Uh, but I would, uh, I would recommend also Second Symphony for people who already love Number 3 and want to have something more. I really strongly recommend Second Symphony, which for me is maybe his absolutely best piece. So Yeah, we are talking about piano music, and piano music is just a small percentage of his whole work. He was fascinated by the piano itself in his early years, and he dreamed about being a pianist, so he practiced a lot. There were, of course, some difficulties because of the family situation, and his mother died, and so on, so on, so on. We don't have to talk a lot about this now, but when he started his normal education, he started with the piano and that was his first love. So he wrote a lot, a lot of virtuosic big piano pieces in his early years. And all these juveniles are of course not published. But there is a big pile of music containing, for example, the full big piano concerto, very virtuosic one. Of course, it's far from his major style, but it's extremely important. A series of preludes, different program pieces, yeah, and this very big piano concerto. So maybe one day. Throughout his life, I think he considered the piano to be the closest instrument, and he always composed by the piano. He had a lot of favorite pianists, for example, Śliatosław Richter or Mata Acherić. Yeah, he was very fond of them. He watched all Chopin piano competitions in Warsaw. Every 5 years he was, yeah, 3 weeks only with Chopin. Uh, he played the piano himself quite well, so I remember him playing Chopin mazurkas, Szymanowski mazurkas, a lot of Mozart, a lot of Bach, really. Yeah, so piano was quite, quite important, very important. And I think in, in his piano pieces we can find the same tendencies, let's say, let's say it like this, the same way of shaping the form as in orchestral works. So I think there is the same tendency to use very distinct, sometimes even maybe extreme means to express himself, very similar way of building the very expressive whole block of music, very dense and full of tension and emotions. So I think it's quite close, piano music, to the rest. Thank you for sharing.

Jared, would you like to add anything?

I definitely agree with that tension and emotion and these blocks of music when it comes to things like piano sonata and toccata. This is the first repertoire that comes to my mind. But I loved researching all of this music for the purpose of the book that I've written, because these stories now coming from Anna are things that I've heard many times, and I feel closer to the repertoire because of it. And when I hear them told, I think it really makes a difference to the interpreter to know that information. Some composers, you don't want to know too much about their personal life. It helps you to just look at the music. And someone like Gretzky, you need to know where he was coming from. I think that's a different case. You can play it, I think. I'm not an extremist. You can play it if you don't know these things, but it certainly helped me to learn from a direct source who knew him and understood how he worked and understood what he was aiming for in the music. And I think it gets us closer to understanding this music when we look at the enormous mass that he wrote for orchestra, chamber music, and choirs, and then see that this smaller portion of piano music is really very tightly related to it.

Really? Yeah. And you are also— yeah, you mentioned that you're publishing the book very soon. And then that probably complements the album you just released, right?

I think it's kind of a funny coincidence that they both happened in the same year. I haven't been— I haven't been bored for the last few years. I haven't had a lot of extra time on my hands. Writing a book and planning and recording an album of this scope and size has been a lot of work in a very short time. But I'm lucky that they're coming out in the same 2-month period. I think the book will be out middle of the summer and the album has just come out a few weeks ago.

So it's a nice pairing. Yeah, that's just some really incredible— and I would love to read it. Yeah. Since especially you mentioned that knowing the person, knowing the composer himself helps us understand his music better, so.

Because Anna also wrote a book, but it's only, it's in Polish. It's not been translated. So my book decided, I decided to dig into that and translate the important conversation she had with her father to explain his points of view about things that we can analyze it from looking outside of the music, but Anna really takes you into the middle of it, to the core of what's there. And learning Polish as well certainly helped because I think Górecki really deeply identified with his Polish nationality, with Catholicism, with a state of the birthplace being Katowice, or being near Katowice and being rooted in Silesia was a big part of him.

Wow. Yeah. So how well do you understand Polish, Jared, by now?

I'm going to let Anna answer this. I can say he speaks Polish really well. Yeah, we can communicate in Polish easily. Yeah. So that's very great because Polish is one of the most terrible languages to learn. So yeah.

I hear that the Polish is one of the most difficult languages.

Yes. Like Chinese, something like Chinese. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Congratulations, Jared.

It helps when you, when they, when I moved to Katowice, right. I asked Anna, I remember when she invited me to her class. I asked her, is there some in English, because I don't speak Polish, some form of English studies? And there was an English program at the time where everyone spoke English. But several of the professors I also wanted to work with in chamber music and other forms of collaboration primarily only spoke Polish. So for about 2 of the 5 years there, it was just smile and nod, and when you catch on to a couple of verbs that mean, Listen carefully, you play bad. Then you understand what they're saying a little bit. And— but after a while, I think just being there all the time and operating there in life as well, buying groceries, going to libraries, going to athletic stuff, getting sick and needing a doctor, you can't always rely on there being an English speaker there. So I just determined I've got to learn this. Plus my first teacher, or one of my first teachers in pre-college, her name was also Anna. Came from Warsaw and immigrated to Canada during the communist time. And I remember her using words in Polish sometimes, usually swear words when I played. She didn't like it. So I feel like this culture was always there since my early teens, you know. And so coming to Poland felt more like a homecoming in some ways because I'd always wondered what it would be like to really live there, which it makes a huge difference, not only in Górecki, but also Chopin, Szymanowski, and there's no— it's so much easier to interpret them in Polish, I find. I just feel that much more.

Now, Anna, what is it about, you know, Maestro Górecki's music that really resonates so profoundly to listeners? Like, whether it is his avant-garde experimental chamber, you know, works to deeply spiritual choral compositions. And/or evocative piano works, right? And his music demands our full attention. Like, I have to stop from whatever I'm doing in order for me to listen to. Just by talking just gives me chills about his music. So yeah, what is, in your view, gives his music this undeniable impact? Well, another very difficult question.

I know, I'm known for it.

I'm famous for it. Sorry.

I think there are several things about it that we can define and a lot of things that are absolutely beyond any statements or definitions. So yeah, I think it's a combination of several different important factors like Yeah, maybe from psychological point of view, it's something like, um, yeah, maybe it's about just feeling and understand— understanding human feelings, this, the, the deepest ones, the most intense, uh, and, uh, and needs, human needs, and hopes, maybe some hopeless states too. Yes. And from the other artistic side, maybe it's the ability to— how to say it— to, to convey important, profound content into a strong, very bold form. Maybe this combination. Yeah. Strong, true feelings, just true feelings, true feelings and the perfect form. And if you combine these two things, maybe there is a chance that would touch people somehow. So he was always extremely, uh, careful while preparing, uh, the work. So before, before composing, there was a long process of of collecting sources, of making sketches, of reading books. Yeah, so sometimes it would last for years even. And when all that stuff was completed, then he started the real work. So he was really careful and he was really, he was working hard. Really to have all these components well combined. I wouldn't like to use the word measured, yeah, but they had to fit one to another. So yeah, there is a mixture of importance of tradition, of courage, of speaking with one's own voice. So Yeah. Mixture of different things.

When you talk about it, the word I get in my mind is like, it's very intentional. Yes. With every, like the deepest intention. I get that feeling when I play, especially the concerto. It feels so—

There's nothing like an accident or something that just happened. But there is a lot of intuition too. Yeah. It's not absolutely not calculated. It's not invented, yeah? It's not artificial, absolutely not.

So it's like the music, I think it's true that now the more I've played it and now we have recorded it, it feels like a real reflection of the intuition of the composer. And he identified very carefully what he wanted to say and what the real message was. And he worked really tirelessly to figure out exactly how to write it down.

Yeah, so he had a— there was a deep conviction that one must know their, how to say it, craft. Is there a word like this? Craft? Yeah. So the work you do, you must know very well. Yes. Just craft. Do your job properly. So you can't pretend, you can't just build an empty facade. And it can be maybe very attractive, but it has no meaning and no background. So music needs knowledge and music needs skills, really deep skills and craft and strong constructions. And if you have all this and you understand what's inside a human being, So maybe, maybe it would work, yeah.

That's amazing because it's so— I just thought of it as you were talking, Anna, that when I played the sonata, even the opening, just these octaves, well, not really octaves, but there's a 3-octave span for just these unisons. You can feel the beginning, middle, and end of every single note, even though it goes by really quickly. It's a simple structure. It's just one line. But there is something about every note that feels very real when it's happening, even at a fast speed. And I remember when I finished it, I texted you from the studio, my head is ringing after recording this sonata, like my ears are ringing. And you said, yeah, brain also is ringing after playing it. I think it's because—

Yes, I experienced the same, yes.

Really? Can you tell me, elaborate on that ringing part?

Well, first of all, just The Piano Pod is, vibrating so much from the amount of notes written in a very wide texture, highest soprano, lowest bass, or very close to lowest, and constant chord clusters that are written with forte times 5, and then crescendo to even louder. And I remember once in the lesson I asked Anna, why did he write this? And how are you supposed to play it? And Anna, do you remember what you said? I don't remember. Wishful thinking. Try to go from extremely loud, like the loudest you're at, to even louder, to just at the limit. But on a stage, I mean, I've played the sonata live now probably 20, 30 times, and now I recorded it. You feel this energy on the stage. You feel like, I need the piano to be 6 feet longer, and then I can do this crescendo.

This is real. That's true. I'm also curious, now that Anna, you're here, what was it like, Maestro Goretzky, like as a person and father? I, if I'm not wrong, he, he taught you first music lesson.

No, no, he was never my teacher. Oh, really? Okay. Oh no, never ever. Uh, yeah, but, uh, my first lesson was, uh, with my first teacher was a very famous, uh, Polish pianist and educator. It was Professor Wanda Chmielowska, and for a long time she, she was a head of piano department in Katowice, and my mother studied with her. So that was a very natural way when I was born and when I grew— that's when I was, let's say, 4, I think she invited me and started lessons. So it was It was just a private contact. It was, we had private lessons for several years. Um, and later, uh, yeah, but my father was never my teacher. He was really, uh, involved in our lives, mine and my brother's life. He was a present father. Happily, happily, he was really, uh, he was interested in what we were doing. And he was also very demanding. And, but I think it was, uh, that was a blessing because, you know, he didn't accept wasting time on nonsense. Uh, we had to work hard. Of course we had to make progress, but there was, there was nothing like a sick ambition, for example. That you have to win the competition or you have to win this. Never ever. He was never pushing us towards success, let's say, say like this. Uh, so it was just about development, about learning, about gaining experience. So I think it was very healthy, really. And he was happy with all these passions, our passions. Outside of music. So I was very interested in literature and I wrote a lot and he was very happy about this. He wrote, he read everything. So, so, so I think, uh, I had a healthy childhood. Yeah. But he was never my piano teacher. My mother was for some, for a short time.

Yes. Yes. She's a pianist. Your family has such a huge legacy of lineage of musicians, right?

Yeah. Yes. My children are the third generation now.

And I can say I'm glad that he was so demanding and wanting you to develop because I can speak now as someone who studied with Anna for 5 years, she is the same. Every lesson you feel it must be better. It must be honestly better. And there was also no sense of sick ambition or pushing toward, at least in my case, toward a million big competitions. And if you don't win, um, the teacher will lose respect for you or stop pushing you in the direction that you should be going in. Um, and I did a lot of competitions when I was studying with Anna, but they were all my idea. And she said, okay, if you want to do it, let's do it. Um, and I feel very, very lucky that I had that 5-year period because she also, um, every lesson I remember a lot of details written on my scores and spoken, but none of them were about anything but just being with music, practicing music carefully, listening carefully, being sensible in how you work on music, not going to the practice room and just playing through your repertoire and then stopping a little bit over a couple of problem spots. But I remember a lesson in which I had played a bunch of Rachmaninoff preludes, and she just said, "Okay, day of honesty, you need to practice much slower. That is it." and then she just listened to me play slowly. And it was a really— I'll never forget this lesson because I had to demonstrate just how many possible ways I could play slowly and still be deeply connected to the root of Rachmaninoff. And there was no discussion about how to play one of them faster or one of them louder or one of them more so that a jury will like it at the competition. But it was just being in music and I got the feeling, Anna, as you were talking, that this is something connected to also the way your father heard music and experienced it, because there was never this outside pressure coming into lessons. It was always just about the music.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm very happy to hear this, but I must say that Jarrett was always— yeah, to say that he was always well prepared, That's nothing. He was really absolutely conscious of everything he wanted to do. And he knew everything about the composer, about the style, about really, yes, yes. Thanks. So I remember this Prelude. Yeah. You played them really. Yeah. I remember this recital at the end of the year and this was really, really great. Yeah. I was happy to have you as a student.

This is the perfect situation. Yeah. Yukimi, how many people can say, looking back after knowing a teacher for that long— I've known Anna now since 2013— and we remember such details? Like, it must have something really worked. Yeah.

And also, you know, getting compliments from your teacher, this is the place to do it. Otherwise, during the lesson, you don't hear it.

Exactly. That is something that is It's very rare actually. I do not remember a bunch of fake nice words, but I remember 5 years of solid work and when it was good at the very end, the result is good, of course Anna would say, but there was in the lesson, there was none of this, oh, so fantastically talented, great, let's go to the next piece. It was, if it's good, let's work harder. And I always, it's funny, not a series of 5 years worth of compliments, but a series of 5 years worth of criticism and input and suggestion and engagement with the real art of playing. And yet I never felt disrespected or put down by the, it was just objectively, this is what we do next. This is where you take a Brahms concerto. This is what you do with a Mozart concerto. Here's how you practice Rachmaninoff. And I loved that element of it, because, I felt Anna must be more on fire for this music even though she has a bunch of other students to deal with and concerts. She goes to Asia every year a couple times and has a million other things to do. And in my lesson, she's all there with the music too. And it was crazy. There were moments where she just said one simple thing, like, "This is the leading line of the whole piece." And it was like a little thread that went for a whole concerto, and my whole mind would be on fire for the next hour. And I absolutely, I think that this is the right way actually of teaching because it keeps you engaged so deeply in the music. That's how you know you're studying with a master.

So Anna, as his daughter, do you feel a sense of duty to continue his legacy in some way, and do you see your role in that sense? Yes, of course.

I think my job would be maybe bringing his music as close to the listeners as is possible. Of course, nowadays it's not easy because so-called new music, even if it's written 60, 70 years ago, or even 100 years ago. Yeah, people are, yeah, often people are just against it. And if there is a famous name, if there is a festival, if there is a special occasion, okay, new music is tolerated. But yeah, that's a sad truth. But if we don't have a lot of possibilities to play music like this, so every occasion like this one, Jared, your idea of recording this or some strange different places we can play it in. That's a blessing, of course. And what can I do? I think my greatest dream was to prepare his unpublished pieces and to prepare them to be printed and prepare them for the recording. So I was, I had a moment of hesitation because it was a question: should I do this or should I not do this? So when I was preparing my, uh, my book, I dove into these archives and I found a lot of short pieces, completed, complete short pieces, and some fragments of music that later created a cycle, for example, Spashegovina Zda or something like that. So of course, there was a question, would he like it or would he not like it? But I think there were some pieces so important, of such an importance, like mazurkas, for example, a very important piece that was the first one from a— planned big cycle. Unfortunately, this cycle was never completed, but we have this first long piece that gives us some insight into his intentions. And this is a perfect piece, just a complete piece of music, 9 minutes of beautiful music, simple but very, very dense. Yeah, if you just notes, but you are so tired playing this.

Yeah, it's exhausting.

It's so exhausting.

I was less tired playing all of Chopin's mazurkas, and you play one piece. I think I play it in 7 minutes. I might be faster, which might be bad. I don't know. But maybe because I was already thinking I'm going to be too tired. But it's true. There are some moments in Gurevsky's piano music where you feel the space happen in real time. Yes, and this can be exhausting.

There is a piece for violin and piano called Little Fantasia, and this Little Fantasy I played many, many times with the fantastic Polish violinist Krzysztof Bonkowski. We played all Gurecki's music and all Lutosławski's music and Arvo Pärt and so on. So we had a very big repertoire, and this Little Fantasia The— it lasts, uh, for, I don't know, 13 minutes maybe. It starts with just, uh, very simple thing. Yeah, just a few notes to play.

G, D, D, just a series of fifths over and over.

Yeah. And he was so exhausted after playing this. It was so— and me too, me too. I was absolutely, yeah, so tired. So it's about intensity and about this concentration. Yeah. So everything is visible. Everything is so open and so clear and so obvious. Yeah. Time stops. The time just stops sometimes. Yes. And there is nothing like a normal second or two seconds, nothing like this. Yeah, so this is, this is very special.

I have to say, Anna seems to be, because of the opportunity to record this, she seems to be doing this job of continuing Gurevsky's legacy and his music. And the piano album she edited very beautifully, it's clear exactly what you should do and exactly what you should not do. The timings of things are clear. And through my research for my book, she provided the right types of data, like when I was choosing, should I publish this story or that story about the composer? She has a really good view of what actually links to the music and what the practicer, what the artist really needs to know. And in that respect, you couldn't ask for a better expert. Thank you.

I'm happy I could help. We were always talking a lot at home about music, about performances, about musicians. So yeah, he was a very talkative person. During interviews, sometimes he said just 3, 4 words, but at home it was a constant flow of ideas, thoughts, emotions. Yeah. So we talked a lot about music and we were listening together, so many performances. So I think he managed to pass on me his ideas about what he expected from musicians. So what he expected from performers of his music. Sometimes it was, yeah, not very polite, but it was very clear. It was very clear. And yeah, yeah, now I will try to be serious. It was very clear and in terms of the structure, about tempi, agogic, about the quality of sound, about the just the touch needed to play it in a proper way. So yes, I hope I could touch some of his— of course, I'm not sure I'm able to pass it forward or just to make it. I'm trying, but of course it's very difficult. But I think I can imagine what he was expecting from the performer.

Now, can you take us through this new album? So what's in the album? So what pieces you're playing? I believe that Jarody, you're playing solo works.

I did all the solo.

And then also, so what are the pieces that you guys are playing together? Is it four hands or two pianos? We played two pianos. Two pianos. Okay.

So we start with the Toccata for Two Pianos, which is an early work, and then Five Pieces for Two Pianos, which is a serialist work, which is very interesting because when we sat down to rehearse it, we were on a jury of a competition, and in the evenings we were talking over dinner about how to play it, and we were writing out all of the interesting rhythmic things we would have to use to count this piece because it's not really possible. At least we both agreed it probably would not be possible without having a something metronome clicking in our ears through the performance, because some of the ways that Górecki divides the rhythms, you would have to be able to be in the other pianist's brain to make sure that you're going to land at the right time. So this piece initially, it looks very forbidding and very, very thorny to understand and to even begin to practice it. I had the impression the first couple of times of playing it through that I have worked for 3, 4, 5, 6 days and then I take one day to practice what I have to do for my next recital. And on day— the day I come back to these 5 pieces, I have forgotten everything I was doing and how to do it all. It was like a black magic of some kind. I really didn't know what was going on.

Yeah, it was pretty much the same because there is nothing like a conventional form or melody or rhythm that could be, that could lead us to the piece. So it's nothing that helps. It's sort of a puzzle. Yeah. Sort of a puzzle and sort of very difficult math. So we count all the time and we must remember all these different places we need to touch in a very short time. So the structure is extremely demanding and it's so easy to forget everything that you learned the day before. And there were places almost impossible to play using the score. So I had to memorize, for example, all this solo ending. It's almost impossible to play it properly in tempo looking into the score. And the text is abstract, yes, so nothing that would help. But it was fun. And when I was— yeah, it was fun really, because when I practice by myself, of course, yeah, very demanding, very interesting. But that was not everything. And when we started playing together, all these pieces became, you know, just rich, just interesting. It was like sort of a painting with colors, with different points, no obvious shapes, no flowers or dogs, but just colorful points and spots. Yeah.

So it gave me totally new ears as well. I feel like my ears are not the same after doing that because, you know, it's kind of like the basic piano teaching thing. You go back to learning your first polyrhythm, like 2 against 3 or 4 against 6 in Mozart or Chopin, and you think as a kid, gosh, nothing could be more difficult than this. Nothing as a kid. And then you look at the score and you think, I have to subdivide a series of polyrhythms that are in not only my part and each of the dynamic points on the highest level of the keyboard, the highest range is pianissimo. And then within the span of 32nd notes, you're playing fortissimo in the lowest bass. And then you have to move by a random interval to piano and then to mezzo piano at another interval and then wait a second while the next piano does something and then come back and put a chord there that has nothing to do with what you previously played.

Yeah, almost every single note has its own dynamic. Yeah. So, exactly.

And within a chord, there are multiple dynamics per voice and multiple articulations. So there were points in the studio where I thought, I think my eyes might be crossing and then going the other way just to check like the coordination of this thing. And my ear is still clicking mercilessly. This 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 or 7 or 9 or 652. Like you never really know. Until you sit down with the other pianist and work all the details out of rhythm, exactly how much it will demand of you. But it's funny that other than playing the sonata, which is long and very dense and aggressive in places, my strongest memory in the studio is of that piece. Not necessarily every single detail, but I remember several points where we both thought, I need a break because I think I'm losing my mind here.

Yes, I think the biggest difference is in time. Because this is like Sonata, for example, or anything else we played or you played. So the normal musical time just flows in a normal way. And here the time is so strictly defined, is so strict that there is nothing like normal breathing or normal phrasing or just, you know, transition from one phrase to another. There is nothing like this. So sometimes, sometimes you feel like part of a machine. Yes. But you must be this machine, but still you must create some, you know, some space, some colors, some— Yes.

Well, this is very difficult. I liked when we started with— It was fun.

It was really fun. Yeah.

In the end, it's one of my most memorable experiences to date because the first time we rehearsed in Katowice, I said, look, I don't know how we're going to do this. I don't know how I'm going to do this. And when Anna said it's like a modern painting, like something very much pointillistic or just a splash of color here and then some other dots, it was this whole painting metaphor. And it reminded me of being somewhere like, uh, Centre Pompidou in Paris, like where all the modern art installations are. Um, because when we started playing it, you listen differently when it's just going to be one splash of color for that moment and that's it. And you look differently when you observe art this way as well. When you know that there's not going to be a continuous narrative like the Nanoufara of Monet, you can watch forever and it's all lilies. But a painting like this, or a sound painting like this, is a totally different approach to sound. And Goretsky did it very, very rarely, right? He didn't— the only other thing was the 3 Dodecaphonic pieces and some other serialist stuff for orchestra, but it wasn't his main expression.

Yeah, this was, uh, um, in the '60s. Yes, that was a very strong wave of pieces like this. Scontri and so on, First Symphony, realistic. The first version of Songs of Joy of Rhythm was also very strict in terms of time. So segments that you should play, let's say, 17 seconds. Yes. And the second version of Songs of Joy of Rhythm is much more free.

It's just, let's say, normal. That's interesting, the paradox in this music when the time is more tightly controlled down to the second, You feel it afterward when you listen. You can sit back and for some reason, when I listened to our recording of this, listening to Piano Pod with the 5 pieces, I felt so relaxed. Yes, me too.

Listening to the sonata. The effect is different, totally different from the process. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Extremely complicated and difficult and demanding. And when you just listen to these pieces, you see all these colors and shapes and shapes. Yeah.

That's good. I have the feeling also, I have to give credit here to our sound engineer, Anne-Marie Sylvès. She's from Quebec. She's amazing. And she knew exactly what to do with this. And right down to the last moments with the files before the album went to print. She was checking with me, and I don't know if she was checking with you, Anna, that the space between each piece, which is also calculated, is exactly the number of seconds that Górecki wrote.

Yes. Yes.

So that in the end, the total time—

yeah, 3 or 2 or 5 in between.

Yeah. Yeah. And these are also calculated and it gives this incredible effect when you listen to it that you can feel your brain being pulled in different directions to listen to different things and you feel the gymnastics of your listening. When you're doing a jump up and then way down and landing on the ground. It's something— I don't know. I wish I could have spoken with Gretzky about exactly what he was doing in his— like what he was thinking when he wrote it, because some of it, as you practice, defies normal interpretation, let's say. It's not— you can't read it like with a narration in mind. It's not a Schubert sonata or even something like Messiaen, like the Vision de la Main or the Vingardes. These have images associated even with highly dense and sometimes awkward textures. But this piece is totally outside of all of that. And that made it the most interesting for me because I have never done anything like that. This was very interesting too, playing alongside someone that I studied with for so long, and I understand what she expects of me and what she— how she wants my development to go. And then when we worked together, I started to understand also what she expects of herself. That was very interesting because Anna plays on an incredibly high level. And then as a student, you look at your teacher and go, wow, okay, that's amazing. But then when you're working with them, you realize, whoa, it's actually much higher than I ever would've realized as a student. So it's, it's much higher that they're expecting of themselves that they're going for. So, 'cause as a student, your mind is more on yourself and what you need to do. And your teacher's there. Their role is to point out all the insufficiencies and to get you past all of that stuff. So of course on a higher level, but the transformation of it into actually collaborating and playing together, not as, you know, Anna's playing the orchestra part of Brahms Concerto for me, which is really very nice. I'm lucky, but I'm the student. This was fun. And, and now, oh wait, it's an equal partnership. We are playing together and we have to find a way to complement what each other is doing and make the music work. I didn't notice it fully until we were rehearsing together exactly how hard Anna pushes herself and how far she goes to work so the music comes out exactly the way that it's supposed to. That's a hard task.

Yeah, I'd say our rehearsals were quite fruitful, let's say. I think so. Because they were not very long and they were not very exhausting, but they were— I think we understood each other well. Yeah. And we had a common view of things we want to do. So that was fun. Thank you.

Interesting too that I would have thought going into this that I had to form an opinion that was exactly the same as yours because it's your father's music. You know him best compared to any performer, certainly compared to me. But when we would talk about it, I was in shock sometimes at how open-minded you're also about the— of course, I'm not saying we should play it in the wrong style or in some, you know, really radically different way. But I felt welcome to share, this is my impression of what's going on here. Can we consider it? And we would practice different ways until we found mutually a solution to a musical problem, particularly in The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. And that was a really, really transformative process for me.

Yes, I, I, I think your approach and your insight was very precious, uh, because we can never say that the pianist is just a tool and the composer is programming us somehow as a computer, let's say. Yeah. So yeah. Of course, my father, yeah, he expected right tempo, right dynamic. Everything should be like he intended, like he put it down. But what was very funny when he was conducting this, let's say his Third Symphony himself, this performance is 10 minutes longer than the standard and than the time indicated in the score. So he himself felt that the music is something that lives. Yeah, it's nothing, uh, nothing done once for always, like a picture, for example. Yeah, so, so I think of course we, we need to follow all these, all instructions. We can't play lento allegro, allegro lento, but we need to to be ourselves somehow, because we'll create some fake situation if we are not.

Yeah, and I think Gretzky's music particularly— I think about this in the Sonata and in this, um, also Preludes— there are fermatas sometimes at the end of the movement that will allow you to spend a lot of time thinking between one movement and the next. And some performers, for example, for Sonata, take only 12 minutes or 12 minutes 30 seconds I know I took something like 13 minutes or 14, almost 14, I think. But I liked to let the fermatas live for a while. And it doesn't mean the tempo— it's interesting. It doesn't mean the tempo of the allegro is slower because the pianist struggles to play fast. There are moments where you want to let the sound just sit there and register in real time with your listener and give them the sensation that what they just heard, they now have time to absorb it.

So much depends on the acoustics, the amount of people, the instrument. So all these things change. So we can't just stick to one pattern and just reproduce it.

Well, thank you for sharing all these. So just to be clear, so you put— the first piece was Toccata, Two Pianos. And then followed by your solo pieces?

Your— No, next piece is the Five Pieces. Next piece is called Five Pieces for Two Pianos. Okay. So that's— there are two pieces on the album in total, Toccata and Five Pieces for Two Pianos. These are the two piano pieces, and then all the solo after that.

So there is— what are the— all the solo pieces?

There are four preludes, Opus 1, the Sonata, Opus 6, Um, a bird's nest, Opus 9, uh, Lullaby, um, Moment Musical, uh, Sundry Pieces for Piano, various works, which—

yeah, because I, I, I listened to Anna's album, you play that piece too.

Yeah, and it's this interesting set that has a funny little waltz at the end that was like a sarcastic gift. For the family friend, who's, yeah, piano professor who was practicing and her neighbors were complaining it's too much noise. So Gurevsky wrote this really brash waltz. It's a very quiet, brooding opening, and then suddenly it sounds like a child slamming the piano with the fist. Yeah, it's really interesting. And he wrote it as a gift to this professor. Yeah. So in total on the album, there's, I think it's 30 3 or 34 tracks in total, and it's, uh, 9 pieces.

Wonderful. As, as this episode is going out, your album is available, uh, to purchase and also music streaming services as well? Yes, that's right.

It's, uh, released by the label Atma Classique, uh, and it's available on all streaming services.

And yes, it's available on the Atma website for Okay, so I'll make sure to link everything in the show notes so that our listeners can have the access and then for purchase and also for listening. The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song is now on Substack. If you're wondering, Substack is an all-in-one platform where creators like me can connect directly with you. Share exclusive content, and build a thriving community. By subscribing, you'll get behind-the-scenes updates, early access to new episodes, and special perks designed just for our audience. Your Substack subscription helps us create more of these meaningful conversations and support initiatives that uplift the classical music community. So join us on Substack and be part of this journey. Please go to thepianopod.substack.com/subscribe or click the link in the description to subscribe today. Thank you for your support, and I look forward to sharing more joyous and meaningful experiences with you on The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. So Jared, so what were you thinking abandoning everything in North America to go to Poland. I'm teasing. So, you know, you, you are originally from Montreal?

Uh, I'm originally from Ontario. I was born in Niagara Falls and I grew up in Toronto, and now I live in Montreal. Got it.

Yeah. And then you have— and then you also studied in New York, correct? That's right. Yeah. So basically your childhood and the extensive, you know, studies or done in North America, although Canada and of course America is two different countries and two different educational systems too. But then you moved to Poland and what led you to study? Well, you mentioned briefly, but was Anna the deciding factor for you? Yes, she was.

Um, that's an easy answer. Um, her first lessons, not only mine about the Liszt Sonata and some Chopin ballads, But watching, watching her teach other people at this masterclass convinced me that this is what I needed and it would be good for me. I was very, very happy with my life. I had always planned to move to New York. I was very happy to get to study with the teachers I worked with there. And now I'm very lucky that on occasion I get to be back there teaching the, for example, my last year, my first engagement of the year was teaching The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song at Juilliard. That's a huge honor to be invited to give any kind of teaching there. And I talked about this exact question that you said, how do you build a career and what do you do? And the answer that I like to give is you take the unexpected opportunity that is not the obvious way forward that you always planned, because maybe there's a deeper reason in your heart, really deep, that or something you really want to do that you just don't consider possible. And I never had considered it possible from my early years in Toronto that I would ever meet Anna Goretzka because I'd heard her albums and I knew who she was. I knew— everyone in the musical world knows who Goretzka is because of Third Symphony, right? So it's just unfathomable not to form sort of a complex that like this family is a celebrity, you'll never even get close. But that first masterclass in Warsaw, I knew if she would be even halfway interested, I'm moving to Poland in the fall. And so when she offered a place in her class, I, I don't even remember other than thinking, I've got to call my teacher. And I did. I emailed her and we chatted on the phone and she said, you need to go. It's a fantastic opportunity. And then I took— I moved out of my apartment, which was in the North Bronx, on Pelham Parkway, and I thought next year I'm just going to be going down into Manhattan for my lessons every day and planning to do competitions in Europe. And so I would always be going to JFK to get to Warsaw anyway, or to get to London or to Dublin or whatever. And I thought honestly, economically, it'd be better if I was just taking the train from Katowice rather than flying from New York City. So I asked Anna, I remember our conversation was in Warsaw, right outside of the Chopin Academy of Music. And she put me in touch with the admissions department in Katowice, who sent me all the paperwork. And then I wrote to her from Hungary. I was in another program that summer with Jano Jando. And I wrote to her 2 weeks later and I said, okay, so I'm coming to Katowice, you know, and she wrote back, you're really fast. You're like some kind of high-speed train. But there was no question in my mind after hearing her teach and feeling— I remember the first thing she said about Liszt Sonata and the first thing she said about Chopin Fourth Ballade. She said, you understand the piece really, really well. And now let's work on— she listed a few things that I could work on technically, and she had them solved within the class. And that's always interested me very deeply about piano teaching, that if you really know exactly what has to be done in order to make something work, you can solve issues that have plagued the person's playing for years in 5 minutes if you know how to do it. And I walked out of those classes a different pianist. So I knew, I can only imagine what will happen if I spent 5 years. At that time, I think I was only thinking 2 years, master's and finish and then see. But I stayed for another few. And, you know, it's difficult to really compare it to anything else because nothing like that had ever happened to me. But when you know it works, you just know you have to do this. You're not going to get another opportunity. Like, they don't come along every day and they don't last often if they do. And the minute I put my bags down in the dormitory in Katowice and I felt, this is very different than New York City. Not everyone here speaks English. I'm going to have to learn the language. I was a little overwhelmed, but then at the first lesson, we played through B minor Chopin sonata. And the minute she started teaching again, it was exactly like I'd remembered in Warsaw. This person knows exactly what to say to get my interest in the music. I want to run to the practice room and try everything she just said. In fact, I remember that first lesson in the academy. She told me, "We need 50, at least minimum, 50 different ways of playing every phrase before we just choose one. So don't rush. Go to the practice room and find as many possible ways as you can think of to play the B minor sonata." So it's not this long, boring 40 minutes of the same thing you've practiced over and over again. I love this kind of teaching. And it just worked. I mean, obviously it did, otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here at this point. I think as it develops, right, it's a long evolution. But when you know it works, you just feel something and you do it. And I was very lucky to have in my corner at the time my beloved teacher, Veda Kaplinsky, who said to me, this just sounds right. It just sounds right. You need to do it. And that's also very rare because when you build a life in our sort of North American direction with big names and big schools and the idea that your career needs to go in a certain direction in order to be successful, a 10-year trip to Europe isn't necessarily the way that we advertise, go do that. But it was the right thing for me and it was good for me. I mean, it built, it built my life now as I know it.

But looking at you like, because I also teach too, and young students, and the way this North America teaches or system, like competitions and everything, right? As opposed to what you gained in 5 years in Poland. Yeah, I'm looking from here, it's like, wow, I can envy you, you know, I envy you.

I did get very, very lucky. What do we tell our kids? And I teach kids too. We tell them to do their exams, to apply to big name conservatories, that they should look at Europe's competition world. But the idea of going to live in Europe and to imbibe the culture of it and to feel like you're not rapaciously looking for the next experience you need to build your resume, but you just want to sit with someone who knows music and get to know what they know and to be in that space for a long, long time just to absorb. This is a very different narrative. And this is how it looked for me going to Poland was just to be around other musicians who we're just musicaholics and don't want to talk about the business and the agents and the career side of things until you absolutely have to. But for now, our work in the studio that I remember so clearly was that every composer we were studying was our obsession for that period. And we just, every detail of it and every sense of how to touch the keyboard, how to make sound, how to listen to sound. Of course it changes you. It transforms not only as a pianist and as a musician, but it— you get the feeling that this teacher really cares about you, cares where you're going, and cares what's going to happen to you when you get there. So you better be ready. And the teaching goes in that direction, which I think is the right one.

Then you've described yourself, your pianism, as unrecognizable compared to where you started. So tell me.

I went to Katowice feeling like if I'm not immediately taken to the highest level of competition technically, then it means I'm not a pianist. And Anna set that one in the right direction within the first few lessons. You have to be a musician. And she started coloring it all in with the way you make deep, rich, beautiful sound and feel the interpretation. And time everything you do on the stage according to the real sense of the feeling of the score and a deep understanding of how it works. And after the first year, I couldn't remember my technique being better, um, and my musicality being present all the time. There was never anything explained technically or practice-wise about how to play the instrument that was excluded from how to think about sound and how to hear music. And I mean, for that reason, Anna was fantastic for me because she could sense exactly where I was thinking too much schematically, too much mechanically, and put into the sound a kind of color. And there was never any direct criticism of me trying to be a better pianist or trying to just focus on technique. But I remember thinking after one lesson on a Chopin étude, it felt more deep and emotional and riveting. Than the last time I had played a Schubert sonata or a Beethoven sonata. It was just something really, really invested in the electricity of every single note and the feeling of playing it. That's something special. I don't think a lot of teachers spend time practicing with their students, but Anna will show you how to practice it so that you can feel the way she's thinking it and you can see the way the score works. And that's something— there's just more time for lessons there as well. I love that in Katowice. It wasn't just 1 hour a week and you're done. Sometimes 2, 3 hours. This was incredible. And I used to think, my God, now I teach all the time. I practice with my students like Anna taught, so I teach. And I used to think she's probably getting really bored of sitting through another lesson on Arachmaninoff. We did the second concerto and she turned to me smiling. I can have 100 lessons like this where we just practice careful and touch the piano perfectly and think about the interpretation. And this was fantastic. Do you remember this? On Rachmaninoff's second?

Yeah, I'm really ashamed here to listen to all these things you are talking about me. Thank you so much. You're a perfect student. Yeah, so everything you, you say now, uh, is just a perfect example of someone who, who knows a lot about playing the piano and, and the music itself. So yeah. I must say I was blessed with great teachers, me myself. I had really, really great teachers. So first I had this old lady, Wanda Chmielowska. She was already retired when I started with her. And she was just an expert in teaching. There is a big book written by her, very important book used nowadays. About the method and everything. So yeah, all this, you know, positions and that. But I must say these lessons were very interesting because, yeah, I was very small. I was 4 or 5. So it was dancing, singing, repeating after her, some improvisations, some technical exercises, some memorizing, uh, without the choreo. So it was really nice. And later I had two great ladies. Later I entered a regular school and I had two very good, perfect ladies. And later I started, I studied for 5 years in Katowice with Professor Andrzej Jasinski. And of course, this is of course a person that every pianist, almost every pianist knows because he's a teacher of Kristian Zimmermann and he's very active. Teacher, and he goes to master classes and so on and so on. And this was really great because he was someone who showed me how to organize the whole process of preparing a new piece, how to work technically, stylistically, formally. So everything was really well organized and very wise and very smart and very practical. And my last teacher was, uh, was a fantastic Russian teacher, pianist first of all, and teacher, Victor Mirzhanov. Uh, I went to Germany to study with him for 2 years, and it was he who opened my eyes to new perspectives, and he forced me somehow to look, to look for both solutions, not to be afraid of doing different things, not to calculate, not to think about what someone could say about this, for example. What I learned from him is that you can't calculate artistically. You must, of course, calculate acoustically, technically, or yeah. But you mustn't calculate artistically. If you do this, you are done. Nothing will help you. If you make some artificial puzzle or calculations, that's not the way. So he was great, yes. That was someone. Very important to me. And I must say, maybe, uh, something that is also slightly different than in U.S. or Canada is the whole, uh, the whole system of musical education in Poland, because I must say it's pretty well organized from the very beginning, um, because we start early with a full professional course. So we have, uh, 8 years of elementary school, then we have 4 years of high school, and later this university level, academic level. So this gives you 7, 12 plus 5, 17 years of professional education, and We have two kinds of musical schools. So one, the first one is the general music. I don't know, general music school. So that you have everything, math, biology, harmony, solfeggio. Yeah, everything together. Physics, chemistry, and yeah. You go, you start at 8 o'clock in the morning, you have everything together. And so that's the, this general music school, and it lasts 12 years. And there is another sort of schools that you just go in the afternoon and have just music, so solfeggio, harmony, uh, yeah, instrument, choir, orchestra. And, um, all teacher, all teachers must have a full master degree, so So no accidents, no mishaps should happen. That is, yeah, some level of professional courage.

Even some students are getting the very good fortune to study with you in high school. They had this opportunity. Yes, I do. So you're a professor of the academy.

I like, I really like, I really love teaching, yes.

What we would call pre-college, which is basically like a privatized form of education, is in Poland part of the option for you to go to high school, basically. So you can go to a pre-college where for, like what Anna is mentioning, and when I practiced with some of her students as like an assistant when she would go on tour, some kids are bringing Scriabin Concerto to their normal high school piano lesson or Beethoven sonatas.

Yeah, that's— high school level is quite high, yes. Yes. Yeah.

And this is just normal public music school, and then there's specialist music school as well. And these are options that you don't have to pay extra for the way you would pay to go to pre-college here. So this form of education is just baked into the culture for you. I know there are some—

a lot, a lot of competitions just for students from music schools, foreign music schools.

Because from where I stand, so I'm teaching this one gifted child, but it's, you know, music student, it takes a village to raise one student. It's not just one piano lesson or one aspect of things. It just takes so much. But in order for this child to grow up to be a good musician, great musician, you have to have theory, this and that. So I have to outsource this student to different teachers because it's not in the system, you know what I mean? Yes, I know. So which means only the privileged can have the access to things, or it costs also, right?

So I don't want to complain too much, but there is something special in Poland like this because music education is a very important part of the educational system. Absolutely.

Yeah, but I must say it's just this musical little tiny island because the rest of the whole nation is absolutely not, let's say like this, not interested in artistic music. Yeah, it's not, the whole world is like this. It's like this everywhere. Yeah, but teaching is fun. Teaching is really nice. And this is funny because, yes, indeed, I'm teaching. I have been teaching for ages now. If I think about this, it's a very long time, but I still have the feeling that it's the beginning, that I'm starting. I really can't feel all these years. So, um, I think it's, uh, the more I teach, the more I like it. Because at the very beginning, sometimes maybe there was a bit of frustration. I wanted to achieve something quickly. I, I was hoping to teach everyone everything. It's impossible. It's impossible. And now maybe, uh, the expectations are different. My expectations are different and I can enjoy the process itself, not the result, but the process is nice. Even if the lesson is difficult, even if someone plays really, let's say, it's a poor level or something like this, the process is interesting. Finding solutions or trying to understand the student or trying to find the way to reach him somehow, him or her. So this is, this is really an interesting job, nice job.

Yes, although it could be really difficult sometimes, but it is a wonderful job.

Yes, but when students like Jared, it's Pure pleasure. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Oh, that's good to hear. I'm glad. One always thinks, you know, I, I drove myself really hard. Like, I worked a lot and practiced a lot, and I now I teach a lot, and I have a lot of empathy for other teachers. Um, and you realize how much work goes into understanding a student when, especially if the level is not what you want to be working with, like, and you ask yourself, how am I going to reach them? How am I going to make sure they get something out of this? And I think to teach really well, you have to be able to come out of your skin somehow and live for the other person.

Like, basically, the reason is the most important thing. Yeah.

So where— when does this teacher and student become the collaboration? The—

you, you know, I actually really want to know the answer to that because I met Anna when I was much younger and looked at her you know, huge larger-than-life figure of contemporary music, and now I'm playing an album with her. It's a huge change for me. So I'd love to know what tipped the scales in my favor on this one.

I think it came very naturally. It came out very naturally, and we just started playing together, and it was— yeah, first we had some fun playing this Brahms, and some— we played not only Brahms. What did we play together?

Brahms, Beethoven, Mozart, and Rachmaninoff. Of course, E-flat major.

Yeah, yeah, fifth Beethoven, of course. That was the first one. D minor Mozart, and later Brahms for your graduation.

Yeah, and some in— yeah, and in first year was the Rachmaninoff second at the very beginning.

That's right.

Yeah, so we already knew something about each other's playing, but I never would have considered that this album, for example, would develop this way. I'm just, I'm, again, I'm very grateful and very lucky. But yes, it developed over this 5 years. And then I did my doctorate on Gritsky. I was writing on this. And then it became a more intensive focus on just this composer for quite a few years.

It's amazing that the teacher-student becomes this collaborator and then playing Anna's father's pieces and So, and then which became this beautiful album and you're publishing the book and all just coming all to a circle, right?

Yeah. Yeah. That's the story of a circle. Yes, that's right. Cool. Yeah.

Isn't that what teaching is all about? I think so.

Yes, you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, we are almost coming to an end of our discussion, but Hmm, Jared, moving to Poland completely changed the trajectory of your career in a most wonderful way that you couldn't even imagine at the beginning, right? I'm sure. But so what advice would you give to young musicians about stepping outside their comfort zones and embracing artistic risks, for example?

It's where all the fun really is. And all the adventure of life is there. I never would've dreamed of this conversation. If you told me the day after I heard the recording of Piano Concerto by Gurevichky the first time, someday you'll be sitting with the composer's daughter after you made an album with her, talking like friends and artistic colleagues, I would think the person was on some very strange drug. And that's not possible for a little child living in Niagara Falls, Canada. It's not an artistic mecca. And I never would dream of this in my wildest dreams. But when the choices come up that you can feel life is really calling you in a certain direction, and it's because it's unexpected, I mean, provided it's safe, take the risk. Because I never would have dreamed of this conversation. And yet it's now something that defines my artistic life. And I really think to focus on something this closely and with this degree of specialization on one composer, to learn the language, to meet the family, to discover new pieces of music, and then to get to record it for a good label with a really great artist you get to work with, this cannot happen without those risks. It's just not— it's not part of the normal narrative of life. As Anna said a little bit ago, it's hard to imagine why someone would move to Katowice and uproot their whole life from living in New York and where you're going in a certain direction with a certain group of people, maybe Katowice is not exactly the city everyone thinks you're going to go there in order to build your life. But I kind of looking back on it and now based on where I'm at, I love that it works this way, that this city that I'd heard so much about because of Zimmermann, because of Górecki, because of very, very famous Polish school of composition, came from the Katowice Academy. I wouldn't have known that that was possible unless I had opened my mind to a new narrative and a new way of thinking about how my life could work. Incidentally, how did this interview come about? My fiancé wrote to you, and he's from Bielsko-Biała, which is near Katowice, and he was the one driving us from Montreal to the recording studio in Domaine Forget, a few hours from here, and he was just so interested to hear this conversation happen that he— Patrick wrote to you, right? Um, so, um, I mentioned this often, of course, and I know it's not precisely connected, but if I hadn't moved to Poland, I wouldn't have found the love of my life. I know I wouldn't have because that's where he was. So if it wasn't for Anna's, uh, invitation, there's a lot of my life that wouldn't look the way it looks now, and I would be not probably half as happy or as fulfilled. Um, and so when you take those risks, your whole life goes with you. And when you— I mean, I couldn't have known just how wonderful and generous a person Anna is until getting to know her over a long, long time. This didn't happen overnight. But I'm very lucky because finding colleagues like this doesn't happen every day. And when you get them, and this is true of every one of my most important musical mentors and now colleagues, they seem to stick for life. They appreciate loyalty, they appreciate skills, they appreciate a good human connection as well. So don't be afraid of doing this when it's like a huge risk-taking, scary-seeming decision. It can be the thing that makes your life really happen.

And also, it really speaks volumes about your dedication, hard work, Jared, and your talent as well, right? So not a lot of people want to use the word talent, but it's true, right?

I think it's not possible without having some need. I needed to do this. The minute the opportunity came, I knew I have to do that.

And then Anna, so similar question, what advice do you have any for students, young students who want to embrace, well, tradition and innovation? Because you are also an advocate for contemporary music.

So I think everything is combined. So the problem of performing contemporary music is combined with goals that young people can have, and sometimes a lot of disappointment or hopes, ruined hopes, comes, come from, from, I don't know, maybe ambitions, maybe, um, not realistic plans. I don't know, a lot of people come and say they want to participate in the biggest competitions, of course in Chopin Competition and so on and so on. And if we talk more, if I ask why, what is the deepest reason, it comes out that maybe that's not the best way to choose. So I think the simple answers are the best answers. So I think if a young person wants, really wants to be a musician, so the only advice is try to be the best possible musician and try to be the best possible person, because life and music is connected. You can't divide it, and you can't be a perfect musician and not to be a decent human being, I think. Maybe there are some exceptions, I don't know, but I don't think so. So that means try to know all about your art, try to just work hard and smart, and try to, try to build as many connections with other people, other musicians, uh, not in terms of career, of course, that's also important, but in terms of, uh, no, self-development, of self-consciousness, of some, I don't know, reasonable insight, whole process. So yeah, I don't know if it's a wise choice now to start this musical education and to start this professional career. I don't know, the world is changing and who knows what will happen. Who knows if what will happen in 5 months, I don't know, even 5 days. In 5 days, right? Even looking into our musical bubble, little bubble So yeah, this musical artistic bubble is very small, and there are even smaller bubbles with contemporary music. So these tiny, tiny, tiny bubbles that are the whole world for us, they almost, they almost don't exist in the world. Yeah, so we are somehow blessed, somehow happy that we have this very special special work and special time and love. Yeah, something we really— we do something we really love. But I would be in trouble if a young person asks me what to do, what to choose. I don't know. I really— nowadays—

difficult to give this advice because it is connected with real life. It's not— people often ask this of professors and we tell them, you know, what about your real life though? Because it's no longer just a simple narration. Go do this competition, get that agent.

Years ago it was much easier to say, okay, just go practice, learn your pieces, go for a competition, find a nice teacher. Yeah, everything will be okay. But now it's much more complicated, I think.

So, um, this kind of conversation we're having now is amazing to think about. It's happened over the last, you know, 12 years, it evolves much slower than it looks. We go to conservatories and we're told how to compete and how to get as fast as possible to the highest level, but real life doesn't happen this way. It takes time to develop this kind of thing. And this is very important for young students to remember. It will not come as fast as you can scroll for it on your phone. And it doesn't look like what you scroll and see on your phone when it does happen. The reality is somewhat different.

And the reality is that you can be very gifted, very talented, you can work hard, you can achieve a lot in terms of development, repertoire, and there is absolutely no guarantee you'll succeed in a competition. Absolutely. It's a lottery, no? It's a lottery. There is no guarantee you will have a career. So the only answer is do what you love and try to organize your life in the best possible way. But don't imagine you'll be the second, I don't know, Yoon Chan Lim or something like this, because it's true, it's not possible.

And when you focus your time after you know that and accept that's the reality, you find real art that you love and it fulfills you more.

It's your way, that means it's really—

yeah, yeah, absolutely. It takes time and takes a lot of, but you know, active work, but at the same time reflection too. But yeah, you're finding your own way is the best way, just being true to yourself and listening to your own voice. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. This has been a really wonderful conversation, just flowed so much, so, so, so well. So before I let you go, Jared, would you take, uh, over and promote your upcoming or already released album plus the book and anything else?

Well, first of all, I want to thank very much Atmo Classique and the sponsors that we've had and the Canadian Arts Council for putting their faith in us to play this album and giving us so many wonderful opportunities vis-à-vis performing in good hall on good pianos with a wonderful engineer, and for their process of releasing it responsibly and letting us have artistic control of the content. That's great. We've been followed up with frequently about how we want things to sound on the final version. So this album really does, I feel, represent what we wanted. And it's not always the case when you do an album, you get what you want out of it, but I feel it is a good representation, a fair one, of Górecki's music, and it's been exciting to play it. And I hope everybody listening to it enjoys being brought into the world of Górecki's piano music, because this is something that is very enriching and very beautiful to listen to, and it provokes new ideas, like we were talking about in the chamber music, the two-piano music. And then my upcoming book is called Górecki's Solo Piano Music, and it is published by Roman and Littlefield/Bloomsbury Press. It's coming out in a couple of months. And that is on all the solo piano music, a commentary on the sources and translation of Polish primary sources about Górecki's music. And I feel that it will really add something new to the research landscape about Górecki, his music, and piano literature in general of the 20th century. So thank you very much, Yukimi Song, for giving us the opportunity to speak with you today about our work about Gurecki and for sharing with your audience all the work that we've been doing. It's a great pleasure and an honor.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for joining. That wraps up this episode of The Piano Pod with a heartfelt thanks to you, Anna and Jared, for joining us today and sharing your incredible stories and insights and expertise with such joyful and authentic vibes. So to our wonderful audience, you can learn more about Jared and his work by visiting his website at JaredDunn.com. It's all in one word. And to learn more on Goretzka, please visit Goretzka.pl. And please start listening to their newly released album Gretzky's World of Piano on all streaming services. And of course, thank you to our wonderful listeners for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up and subscribe to The Piano Pod on YouTube. And don't forget to share and review this episode on your social media and tag The Piano Pod. For the latest piano news and updates, be sure to follow The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song on Substack, TikTok, LinkedIn, and Instagram. I will see you for the next episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song! Thank you and bye everyone! Thank you so much! Thank you!