Season 5 Episode 18: "Bach Reimagined" feat. Eleonor Bindman - Pianist, Arranger, & Recording Artis

Welcome back to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with today's guest, a true visionary whose artistry has captivated piano enthusiasts around the world—Eleanor Bindemann, pianist, arranger, recording artist, and passionate advocate for bringing the music of Johann Sebastian Bach to life in ways that are both deeply meaningful and refreshingly accessible. Described by Pianist Magazine as "breathtaking in its sheer precision and vitality," Eleanor has reimagined Bach's orchestral and instrumental works for solo and duo piano, creating beautifully crafted transcriptions and recording each one herself so piano enthusiasts of all levels can play the music explore the recordings, and find inspiration in her interpretations. Her Brandenburg Duets have been celebrated by professional musicians for illuminating the intricate counterpoint and inner voicing already present in the original orchestral scores. Through the lens of her piano transcriptions, these details often emerge with greater clarity, offering fresh insights even to those deeply familiar with the works. Meanwhile, her solo piano transcriptions of the cello suites, along with her most recent project, Absolut, an album accompanied by a set of transcriptions of the lute suites, have opened up Bach's genius to adult learners, educators, and pianists around the world. Oh, by the way, if you are an intermediate pianist, looking for beautifully arranged versions of Bach's most beloved tunes, or a teacher whose students struggle to connect with the two-part or three-part inventions, for example, I highly recommend checking out Eleanor's "Stepping Stones to Bach," which features accessible arrangements of Bach's iconic non-keyboard works. So, in this episode, we explore the artistic choices behind arranging Bach's orchestral works for piano solo and duet, how Eleanor empowers intermediate and amateur pianists with rich and playable repertoire, common myths around interpreting Bach on the modern piano, and the creative process behind her educational YouTube projects, and more. But before we dive in, just a quick note: If you have been enjoying the past episodes and believe in the mission of The Piano Pod, please consider becoming a paid subscriber on Substack at thepianopod.substack.com. Your support, big or small, helps us keep bringing you meaningful content that bridges the classical music world with broader communities. Now let's welcome Eleanor Beinmann to The Piano Pod. Please enjoy the show. You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the future and thriving in a complex, ever-evolving world.

Welcome to The Piano Pod, Eleanor. It is so wonderful to have you here.

Yukimi, I'm so happy to be here and so look forward to discussing so many interesting questions that I know you're going to ask. I'm very excited.

Oh, me too. So one of our faithful listeners, Opoku Boadu, he is actually also a big fan of yours. Like, he's been watching your YouTube channel and then listening to your recordings. And he actually is the one who recommended that I should reach out to you. And then I'm so glad I did. And then I didn't realize we are fellow Brooklynites and we're pretty close, right? Yeah.

Yes. That's amazing. And I'm so grateful that you told me about Daboko. I actually thanked him. He took one of my mindful memorization workshop classes on Zoom. So we know each other that way. And I'm glad that he was inspired by it.

Yeah. Oh, wow. Really? Yeah. He mentioned something about the memorization. Maybe we can talk about that later, but Yes, many. So I've been listening to your recordings and absolutely, absolutely loving your transcription of especially Bach's Brandenburg Concertos. And that's transcribed by you and for Four Hands and brilliantly performed with Jenny Lin. Yes. Yeah. And also, what's that? You just released an album called Absolute.

Yes. I just released my latest project, which is the 4th set of a cycle of Bach's works not for piano. And in it, I transcribed 3 sets of Bach's works, which were written either for lute or for lute harpsichord. It's not really clear according to the existing manuscripts. But they can be played on both. And to date, the recordings of the complete cycle exist either on guitar or on lute or on harpsichord. But this is the first piano recording of the complete 3 sets.

Wow. And congratulations. They're so available on all music streaming services. Yes, absolutely.

They were released by Orchid Classics on March 7th, a little less than a month ago. And, um, they're streaming everywhere and sold everywhere and distributed worldwide and actually already doing very well. I'm very happy. Um, yeah, we also made, um, the Apple Music playlist. Uh, we were the first track. Well, we, um, one of the tracks was the first track on Bach in the Baroque on Apple Music and also women in classical music. So that was really helpful in, uh, the initial kind of push.

Oh my goodness, that's a huge milestone. Yeah, and really, I love all the pieces that you transcribed, but we'll talk more in detail with the album. The album is called Absolute, right? Yeah. And then, yeah, but before we begin, I usually ask this very important question. So let's begin with this. So if you were to capture the essence of your artistry and mission and passion in just a few sentences, How would you define who you are as an artist today?

Um, I was thinking about this, um, and, um, I guess something that I try to do lately, um, today, as opposed to, let's say, 10 years ago when I started earnestly transcribing Bach, um, because it kind of happened to me and it felt very important. I think it's very important to try to get a fresh perspective and a fresh look at pretty much everything in life because it helps appreciate it and helps us shed, you know, old beliefs. But especially as far as Bach's music and the way it has been, in a way, preserved, all in the best sense of the world— word, but also perhaps maybe, you know, in the sense of just being put in the jar with some kind of a protective, you know, liquid around it. So lately I find that partially because I've been doing it now for so long and so intensely, it became important to me to focus on a new way of looking at Bach's music. And that by virtue of the fact that I transcribe for piano, And it's really a different way of seeing his music because as a musician who played several instruments himself, he obviously approached whatever he wrote with the particular instrument in mind. Yet his music is so universal in language and so easily translatable. So I really feel that in the past year or so, I've become a little less hesitant, um, and a little more, um, I don't want to say fearless, but, but less inhibited in just trying to go where I feel. And, you know, doing ornaments that do not agree with any particular conventions, or sometimes even if I seriously feel that the score has something that maybe is a mistake, I'm not, you know, scared to just play it that way. So I think we all need a new perspective on Bach and a new perspective on his music as kind of a tool for enjoyment and calmness and centering and how it can feed the brain of, you know, amateurs and children and just lovers of musical life.

But first, what sparked your connection with Bach's music? I know you've played many other composers. I've listened to Mussorgsky and Tchaikovsky as well.

Well, you know, I started studying music as most of us when I was very young. And I went to a school in the former Soviet Union in Riga, Latvia, where one needed to pass a certain amount of tests every year in order to remain in the school because it was a school run by the state. And there was a, in the fall of every year, there was an exam that we have, which was called Bach-Études, you know, it was Bach and studies. So before anything else, we had to work on our technique and to work on Bach. So there was no way to avoid Bach as far as playing, And I guess I got positive feedback on my playing of Bach even then from my teacher. I actually remember I sneaked a look at her notebook when she was away, my piano teacher, because it was a school of many subjects. But my piano teacher was in the true Soviet fashion, you know, very phlegmatic, serious person. It wasn't like she never told me, oh, this sounded great, but you have to change this. It was always like, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. Um, but she walked out of the room once and the, I guess it was time for evaluations and I, you know, I sneaked a peek at her notebook and, and she wrote, um, on my page, she wrote, plays Bach well. That's all I remember. Um, so, you know, that was probably, um, one of the small pieces of positive feedback I even got from her, you know, so, um, explicitly, so maybe. Thinking back, that gave me a confidence and more of an affinity to play Bach because I felt I'm good at it. I don't know really, I guess there's some kind of an essential understanding that maybe came through when I was younger, which, you know, comes through if you have a connection with the music of any composer.

You mentioned that, you know, you want to approach Bach's music in a new way. You want to have a new approach to his music. So speaking of that, now some listeners, especially, especially young students— I have quite a few young students, and then there are several that are really serious about, you know, pursuing this piano and hoping to maybe go to college majoring piano or something, but Whenever we have to, we talk about Bach, "Oh, Bach is boring. I don't want to do Bach." You know, "I want to do bare minimum of Bach." But maybe they're not truly introduced the music of Bach in an engaging way. I'm trying, right? But how do you respond to that? How do you reveal the true beauty of his music?

Well, I think just before focusing on that, It is true that not everyone may be great material for loving Bach. Bach is a serious composer and we're all different. And to me, Bach is kind of like jazz. I love jazz, but I know a lot of people who just don't kind of get it. There's something that's missing in the connection with the brain or the body or whatever processes the music that doesn't give the person that Oh my God, this is great. You know, and with Bach, I think frankly, especially as a young student, the available material is wonderful, of course. And a lot of people, you know, have asked me why would we need more Bach that is not that difficult when we have the inventions, we have the minuets, and that's all true. But I don't think those are his most inspired pieces. I think the inventions are wonderful, but they are a bit dry, right? So they may not appeal to everyone, you know, at 5, 6, 7, 8. And the minuets, in my opinion, the dances, again, they're wonderful, but the minuets are more, you know, they're more Mozart to me. When I hear, you know, the G major minuet of Bach, it almost, it's not Bach. It doesn't have the complexity. It almost doesn't have the genius kind of shining through it. So that's all obviously with a grain of salt. It's wonderful work. But I think if you're talking about young students, for example, who may not be disposed to analysis because to analyze an invention, I've had the experience as a teacher, of kids who can understand that this is a little puzzle. And if you spend 20 minutes showing that it's a little puzzle, I've had, you know, 10, 11-year-olds say, oh wow, this is really cool. You know, and once they say that, they will play it with a completely different mindset and a completely different level of interest, just like the adult amateurs will, because many adults don't really go through this analysis of Bach. So One way is to analyze if the person is ready, you know, abstractly and mentally. And I also think that now that I have produced, or I'm not the only one to, but for example, the cello suite prelude from the G Major Cello Suite, which has been transcribed by other people because it's such a big hit. I think if they played something like that, because frankly, it sounds a lot less like Bach that we think about, but it's, you know, it's kind of meditative, contemplative. It sounds like pop music, right? In a sense. I think they would enjoy playing something like that more than the minuet, let's say. I just think it's less boring, right? Then again, forgive me for saying minuets are boring, but I don't think they're the best Bach pieces. Or to play even, versions of music that's great music, maybe not written for piano, like the Badinerie, for example, from the last, sorry, from the Second Orchestral Suite. Tan, taran, taran, taran, taran. You know, everybody loves that. And since my transcription, I've had piano teachers telling me, oh, I play this for my piano students. They love it. They wanna play it. So, you know, I don't think it's a sin to try to introduce some of Bach's greatest hits, so to speak. Into the repertoire because, um, you know, the genius comes through there. Um, and then I think people will be more ready later to play, uh, more serious works.

Oh, I, now I understand. Yeah.

It's one point of view. You know, obviously there are kids like me who at the age of 7 got Bach. Right. You know, it was just, I have that kind of a personality. I'm an introverted, you know, person who likes serious things, you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and, and, um, that's, I think, is very important. And, and the other thing, just briefly, um, I remember as a teenager listening to the St. Matthew's Passion, uh, hearing the first chorus to St. Matthew's Passion, and this is after more than 10 years of having played Bach pieces. And, um, you know, that was my first truly my first emotional surrender to Bach because I thought, wow, this is so great. So also more exposure to non-piano works because Bach obviously approached his piano works as tasks for his students. You know, there's no way that he could have been thinking of the inventions the same way that he thought of the oratorios or the cantatas, right? It's just, he was a businessman. This is for the little kids. This is for the church service. And the Brandenburgs are, you know, for the court orchestra. And the partitas are for my soul because he actually himself published the partitas. So it's nice, you know, once you familiarize yourself with the output, not just as a pianist, but not just as a piano student, I think it will be a huge boost in the interest in Bach.

Ja, if you think of Bach that way, it totally makes sense. So what makes Bach music so timeless and relevant even today, and how do you see it resonating with contemporary musicians and audiences?

You know, I think that Bach, um, as most people who are musical professionals will tell you, he's really in the category of his own. And, um, you know, there's almost like music before Bach and music after Bach and all major composers, um, despite some historical, supposedly there were some gray areas where Bach wasn't played. I think most, uh, you know, Beethoven had the famous quote about Bach not being, uh, a brook by an ocean. Um, you know, Schumann did some sketches of a cello suite, uh, transcriptions that I saw. So major composers, you know, Chopin wrote the 24 Preludes. Major composers were always aware of Bach. It's not true that, you know, just Mendelssohn revived the St. Matthew's Passion and then everybody remembered Bach. Maybe as far as the general public, it's true. But the question why, what makes him so special, I think is a wonderful question that I'll never stop thinking about. And it has been brought up to me a lot recently. And I think that one of the answers is that, I mean, first of all, it just seems like it's a source of, comes from a greater source than just one person. I think a lot of artistic output, artists are just filters through some, you know, natural forces or ideas. And of course, take their ideas from nature. So he was definitely to me a filter of just an incredible amount of some kind of information, for lack of a better word. And his music, since it's largely characterized by patterns and structure, and structure is a Rosalind Turek kind of a quote because she, I like her a lot. And she, I think, has a great grasp on how to talk about Bach. His music sounds great no matter what instrument you play it on, and even no matter what tempo you play it on, broadly speaking, what tempo you play it at, because it is structured on very basic patterns that are very clearly manipulated. And there's something about that that I think appeals to our brains because we react to symmetry and structure, and we somehow see it as something akin to beauty. We are, uh, we're very satisfied with something that makes sense, um, as far as repetition or order. So, um, and that is very much a part of his language as far as the musical structure and, um, the basics of it, like I think no other composers. And also there is complexity at the same time. There is the layers, yet there is simplicity and there is this organic whole that makes sense on some level, you know, and those of us who can analyze things, we're like, oh my God, how could he even do this? And those of us who can't analyze but are receptive to it, they're like, wow, this is amazing. It makes me feel, you know, centering. It makes, it just makes me come to myself. People say all kinds of things like that about Bach. So I think that that is something that sets him apart. And that's something that will never be in any way old or out of context because we are wired the way we're wired as far as the perception of music. And we also, we like to have this feeling of calmness and kind of this attention to something that doesn't distract us, like maybe some romantic music that, oh, this is sad. Oh, I can relate to it. You know, but this kind of music really brings us to a part that understands like it's a universal kind a language.

We briefly touched upon your new album Absolute. What was your process in, you know, adapting these these suites to modern piano. So there are lute suites and also, uh, what is it, Prelude, Fugue, Allegro. Yes, I remember you just released a video of Allegro on the piano on YouTube.

Yes, actually this morning.

Yes, I watched it. It's fantastic. Yes, it's so, so rhythm-driven and so, you know, like, uh, really it sounds like a dance suite from like one of the partitas or something like that. And yeah, a lot of hemiola going on, and I, I love those. Oh, same. And you played so beautifully. So, but what would be the challenging part where you transcribe a piece from, you know, originally written for lute and Lautenberg?

Is that how you call this? Lautenberg, I think, is— that was the general name in Bach's times for these types of instruments that were a lute, you know, strings with a keyboard. Yeah.

Interesting instrument. Has that lute-like quality of tone, but then, but the instrument is keyboard instead of, you know.

Right. It was roughly speaking like a harpsichord with gut strings. So it sounded a little bit more gentle. It was a different tone, like a warmer tone, they say.

Right, right, right. Did you have to alter anything for this to apply to this modern piano?

Well, I think every time you go from one instrument to another, there's considerations and choices. In this particular case, actually, I probably had the least amount of questions and decisions to make because it was partially intended for a keyboard, unlike my other, you know, transcriptions. So mostly what I did there was I tried to enhance the possibilities by, for example, holding a bass note, right? Because the Allegro that you heard this morning is a part of you know, a trifecta, 3-movement work, which is very unusual for Bach. But in the prelude, for example, of that set, the original score just repeats an E-flat at the downbeat of every measure, let's say, in the beginning. Now, obviously, when one goes to the piano, one needs to look at that and think, well, Bach repeated the E-flat every time. Because neither the lute nor the lute harpsichord could actually hold that note. But it's clearly a bass that is meant to be held. So on the piano, to me, it made sense to just play an octave and sustain it by alternating the octave sounds, but to have one long bass, because conceptually that's what it was. You know, so I needed to think about what is it that I can do on the piano without adding, you know, obviously I don't want to change the piece. And that has been one of my very important criteria because I'm not a transcriber who adds anything of myself, you know, beyond something very basic or beyond ornaments going the second time around. Specifically because my purpose is not to be able to play this on my own. My purpose had become to make this accessible to people. So one of my criterions is I also, I don't want this to be very difficult because I don't want 3% of the existing pianists to be able to play it. I would like, you know, more than 50%. To be able to play it. So I'm always wary of adding things that are very difficult. Um, but in the case of the suites, it would be prolonged notes or just being able to hold notes, which is the same thing, except in the case of the prelude I mentioned, it would be just a bass note that's held for 3. But let's say in the Allemande, for example, There are also not many held notes and not many polyphonic sounding elements because the lute or the lute harpsichord cannot hold the note for 4 beats and still be heard. But on the piano, you can. So I did enhance the polyphony a little bit just because I've played so many alabans on the piano. I needed to approach them as a pianist.

Interesting. That takes a lot of thought into it and experience as a pianist and arranger too. You've been arranging or transcribing Bach's pieces and other pieces for a long time. So what level— you mentioned that these lute suites also are intended for maybe 50% of so-and-so-called pianists. Or some of the pieces were hard, I think, in the album.

Well, that's, and you know, it depends, depending on the piece. I mentioned 50% just as a, you know, I pulled it out of the hat, just trying to make a point that there are many intermediate pianists, you know, early, late intermediate pianists who could play this. Um, it really depends on the movement. You're absolutely right. Some movements are hard. And one of the challenges for me, especially as a recording artist, right? Because recordings get scrutinized and reviews, et cetera. I kind of need to show that I can also play the piano. And a way to show that you can play the piano on a very basic level is show that you can play fast, right? So some of the movements in this particular recording and also on the cello suites, I play much faster than one could play on guitar or harpsichord because on the piano it's possible and it sounds good and it makes people think that, oh, she can play well. She doesn't just transcribe. So even this Allegro, for example, I was— it is actually quite difficult just because it's in E-flat major. It does not pianistically make a lot of sense for the right hand. But I had to look. There is a recording of that particular set has been transcribed by actually Busoni in also a very simplistic manner like mine and by someone else. So there's actually a Richter recording of that set. And I wanted to— I made sure that I didn't play any slower than he did just because that's the academic, you know, standard. But some of the movements, the Prelude that I mentioned, the Fugue also from 998, is not difficult compared to Bach's other fugues. And, you know, the Allemande, many of the movements are not difficult. No more difficult than, let's say, a French Suite movement.

Yeah, yeah. So are the scores available, your transcription?

The scores are available. I usually finish the scores after the recording is made because they're making the recording helps me refine any new thoughts or, or that I have. And then of course I need to go over and edit things and, you know, check for misprints and because I know the music, but then I have to look at it with the eyes of someone who doesn't know the music and then I find the accidentals missing, et cetera. So I just finished the score in February and now it is ready. And actually I brought some with me to England when I just did my record launch party and I was very gratified because they just, you know, flew. Everybody loved them and they started asking me, and what are you doing here? And it was very nice. Oh, wow. They're available from my website at the moment.

Oh, okay. Wonderful. It's so wonderful that most of your transcriptions are synced with your recordings, like, so people can have the reference to, right?

Yeah. Yes, I think I'm very fortunate because record labels are interested in my work because it's new. And for me, that's really the only way to introduce my transcriptions because otherwise people will not be interested if they don't hear what they sound like, right? Anybody could transcribe anything. It doesn't matter that, you know, you don't know that it's good. So I'm very lucky to be able to record and to have people, you know, shazam and then write to me and ask, "Oh, you know, this is great.

Can I have the score?" And also I want to talk about your Brandenburg Concertos for Four Hands. Oh, I love them so much.

And yeah, thank you so much. That is, to me, that will always be my most, you know, my biggest accomplishment. The Branagh and Birkin shared is no question.

Sure. So, I mean, where do I start? How long did it take for you to complete all 6?

You know, it took nearly 3 years. I started with one and, you know, I always tell the story, me and my piano partner at the time, we tried Max Reger's score many times and it was just not viable. So what he did wrong was It was kind of like he just put all of the high notes in the primo part and all of the low notes in the secondo part. So in effect, the primo part looks like this Amazon forest of notes, which completely obscures any counterpoint. So they're just clusters of chords because you have the violins playing, you have the oboes, and sometimes you have the trumpets. They're all scored differently. So it's impossible to play up-tempo and really convey the different lines converging, which is what he did for the orchestra. And secondo part, the bottom part, very often just has octaves doubled because by virtue of it being low, nothing else was happening in there. So whoever's playing primo is completely frazzled and frustrated, and whoever's playing secondo is also frustrated for a different reason that they're barely doing anything. So I just transcribed one of the concertos of 2014 because I was presenting a series of Bach concerts and I wanted to do Brandenburg II. And first I thought that I could just change it a little bit looking at the score, but then I realized that I need to redo it because it— you need to enter things into software and it just wasn't viable to change. Um, so I did that one. It took me about 3 months. It was not one of the complex ones. And then after doing that and playing it at a concert, then people were saying, well, are you going to do all 6? Are you going to do all 6? And I was like, oh my God, am I going to do all 6? It took me a few months to get my, um, readiness level to, uh, to a point where I said, okay, I'm going to start working on this. And then it was about 2 years. It was an extremely difficult and involving process. And I'm still frankly amazed that I've done it because everything subsequent was not nearly as difficult.

And these are written for advanced pianists?

Well, again, I don't know what the designation would be because I just transcribed the music the best way I could for 4-hand piano. Some of the slow movements could be done by the intermediate pianists. But the fast movements are just, you know, the first 3rd movements, they are very complex. And those are definitely not for, you know, students on the lower levels. Now, I didn't change anything. You know, I really tried not to eliminate anything except double notes and maybe the viola parts, you know, because everything there is so important. So a lot of them are quite complex. And I made the counterpoint very clear, and I gave a lot more to the bass, even to— we cross hands a lot because— not the bass, the secondo. I wanted the secondo to have melodic material. So that is the most difficult set by and large. Some concertos are more difficult than others. But they're definitely also more difficult than the orchestral suites. Quite, quite more difficult. Yeah, I'm really, you know, I really need to get some more people to play them because they're not easy.

I would love to play them. Speaking of orchestral suites, that's Bach's orchestral suites, and I listened to the album. There are many iconic pieces in the orchestral suites, and then that's also transcribed for four hands. Now, what do you think about four-hand duo? Like, I just performed a four-hand duet with someone, and Oh, that's great. Yeah, I really, I love the format.

I like it. Maybe we should try to get together in Brooklyn and play through some of these. I would love that. Oh, really?

Oh, let's do it. Yes. There's something about forehand duet, the intimacy that you feel. And also, I don't know, it can be also written for solo piano, but obviously with 20 fingers, you can do so much. But at the same time, because it's 2 people, you have to sing together. It's so challenging, but I love doing it. Yeah, I agree.

I love doing it. And I've done it literally. And I wrote a piece about this for someone in England after doing the Brandenburg Duets. When I was studying, when I started to study piano in Riga, If you look at the most commonly used book in the former Soviet Union, it was called The School of Nikolayev. All the Russian kids, you know, Soviet Union kids started learning from that book. Literally, on I think the third page, there's already a duet. Because, you know, there's a very simple one note at a time line for the student and the teacher does chords. And I actually remember, I think I remember, when my teacher did that with me very early on, because for the first time it sounded like I'm playing, you know, I'm making music with someone. And it's a great tool and the Russians knew it and know it. I mean, the Russian school, you know, which is very well, the oldest kind of piano school, even though it evolved from the Germans, but they know how important it is to foster musicianship and to foster synchronized playing and sensitivity. At beginner's piano lessons, that's always done. I don't think it's always done here, not as much, but it is also, and it should be. But the feeling of making music with somebody so close to you for a pianist is no, unlike any other. Of course, we can play with violinists or with cellos, but somebody sitting right next to you on a bench and you need to, first of all, you need to be polite and navigate the piano together. So there's the logistics of that, which is helpful. Then you need to match your sound very often or listen to the balance of the sound. So it's really conducive to just becoming a much better pianist. And you're right, as opposed to two pianos, which is also a wonderful medium, it's a different type of synchronization. Because with two pianos, the synchronization, just playing a chord at the same time is almost the biggest issue. And it's almost a 50-50 chance very often, you know, because I've recorded on two pianos as well. So I think the duets is a very underrated pedagogical tool. Although I understand that for teachers, for logistical reasons, it's hard to do duets. Different students at the same time because it's scheduling, et cetera. But I think it's very important to start in class with the students to give them the opportunity of duets. And as far as two pianos, just as an aside, because somebody in England just asked me, a very nice lady came who actually plays my Brandenburgs. And she said, well, no, I have to ask you, my partner and I tried this on two pianos and she was apologetic. You know, she was almost asking my permission to play these on two pianos. And of course, needless to say, I'm all for two-piano renditions of the Brandenburg Duets. It's just that at the time that I was making the transcription, I thought that practically speaking, it's just a lot harder to have access to two pianos in the same room for any of us. And of course, if I wanted to make a transcription for two pianos, it would have been, you know, a hell of a lot easier to write than to try to understand how will this work, you know, how will my left work, my left hand work with the right hand of somebody else. That was the main difficulty in the forehand transcription is the logistics. But it's actually easier to play on two pianos because you don't need to worry about sharing that, that prized space in the middle of the piano.

Can we talk about your Cello Suites for solo piano and then maybe Stepping Stones to Bach, both? Of course, of course. So Cello Suite, these pieces are iconic, and as you mentioned, there are other composers or arrangers who transcribed for solo piano. But, um, and you graciously sent me both Cello Suites and Stepping Stones to Bach scores, so thank you so much. And then I showed it to one of my adult students, and he was so excited because he loved the iconic, of course, the G major Cello Suite. And the— yeah, so, um, he, he said he's going to purchase the book, and he— we're going to try The first one, but yeah. So what makes yours unique, uh, from others, other transcriptions? What was your intention?

What makes my cello transcription unique is that I actually, um, worked on all 36 movements of all 6 suites. And I approached them really with the least amount of alteration because I wanted to preserve the sound, the register, and I don't know, the universe, if you will, of this very interesting one voice, kind of one line focus that we pianists often don't have. So I really got my inspiration from the Russian transcriber and pianist Alexander Zulotti. Who was a student of Liszt's and who's responsible for many, many virtuosic transcriptions, including Bach in octaves. He did some really crazy things that only he and Rachmaninoff and others could play. But interestingly, I stumbled upon his transcriptions of 4 of the movements from the Cello Suites, including the first suite prelude. But then there were disparate, like random movements from the rest of the suites. Which really, other than a held octave and some, they really did not change anything and they were intended for students. So that gave me almost the courage to do something like this because it seemed like for a pianist, this would be just too easy. And especially for me, the thought of recording that, I thought that people would laugh at me while she's playing one note at a time. You know, like what, you know, it was a lot of, there was a lot of insecurity. And as a matter of fact, writing the program, the booklet notes for the Cello Suite album, I literally, I had like, I developed a, you know, I had a skin like itching or something. I was so nervous because I felt the need to justify doing this. So seeing Ziloti do this, it kind of gave me strength because I said, well, he did it. He thought it was worthwhile, so I can do it too. And just all 36 movements just give such an incredible glimpse into a smaller— it's like you're zooming into how Bach wrote because you're only looking at one voice at a time and dividing the music between two hands pianistically, which, you know, I'm equipped to do because I'm a pianist. And that enables me to show the hidden polyphony and the structure better because it's now divided. And then so I can show the first, let's say, the 4 notes of the main pattern, and then I can show the hidden polyphony notes that change or don't change in the other hand. So it's visually almost like a guide to how Bach wrote his themes. So I think in that sense, it's an invaluable resource for study. And also, to be honest, when I was recording the cello suites, I felt that I'm in better shape than I'd ever been because when you play these, they almost have a better effect than like a Czerny study. They really are a great exercise for fingerwork. They're so different.

Really? Yeah. Oh, okay. So I should try them, not just as a teaching tool.

Well, as a warm-up tool, you know, many of them, it just, you know, I'm sure that Bach is great for your fingers as well as Czerny and definitely a lot better than Hanon. But just, you know, it's very digital. There are some very lyrical movements, the sarabands, but It's really a great workout and it's wonderful music. There is no better finger exercise music, let's say, than the cello suites on that level. And there are some wonderful movements which are not that well known. For example, some movements from the 5th and 6th suites, which are more polyphonic actually, were written for a different— a cello with an extra string. And the Fifth Suite has also been transcribed for the lute in the lute harpsichord as well by Bach himself. So there's one sarabande, for example, from the Sixth Suite, which just sounds like a Brahms piece. It sounds like a Brahms intermezzo. They really give a glimpse into the different sides of Bach, or the very famous sarabande from the C minor Suite, from the Third Suite, which is very simple, very contemplative. It's very different from what we pianists think of, again, you know, of Bach. So I think it's very, very helpful also. I know I'm giving these long answers, but there's really so much benefit from this. The idea of us as pianists, you know, as advanced pianists looking at a fugue or an invention with two voices, we're automatically already reconciling everything we need to do. But when we look at something with just one voice, um, the understanding is very different. So when we actually focus on an Allemande where there's only one voice that we toss around between two hands, when we then look at an Allemande written for the keyboard by Bach, um, we all of a sudden understand it a lot better, you know, because we, we simultaneously see each part a lot more clear.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. As I was sort of playing the Allemande from Cello Suite, the G major. Yes. I love that one. Yeah. It's, I can really see it, although it's, you know, because it's Cello Suite, it's one line, but I see the, you know, two voices, separate voices. And then I was like, oh, wait a minute. Yeah. Even within one voice, you can do that. Huh. I didn't think of Bach that way. I didn't think of Bach's music so, I don't know how to say, 3D, 3-dimensional almost.

Wow. Right. Exactly. This is very interesting because looking at one line in a way opens up the 3-dimensionality within that one line. It's like it's a little microcosm, which, you know, then when he has an oratorio, he had 12 things going on at once, which is incredible. But you do understand that better. And also that gave me, you know, after I'd done the cello suites, I really feel it gave me the greatest, you know, new understanding of Bach on some level. And it also gave me a new understanding of ornaments because by looking at, for example, some of the gigs in the cello suites, there could be parts where there are some eighth note triplets, but then he inserts a couple of 16th notes like a running up pattern or some kind of pattern. And then I understood that these little insertions that he makes are perfectly legitimate and natural, um, seeds for ornaments. So when I play the second time, I make more of those. Do you know what I mean? It gave me the confidence in seeing it that way and using his own material because his material became so much clearer. And the elements, I learned that the elements can be used in repeats, which is, I think, a somewhat unorthodox way of doing repeats because usually think of— people think of ornamentation and trills and so on. But after doing the cello suites, that became a very important part of my development as, you know, let's say, an interpreter or embellisher of Bach, if you will.

Wow. Wow. That's a, that I've never thought of playing Bach that way. Hmm. Okay.

I haven't either until I did that. So. Wow. And you know, it's a shame that transcriptions in a sense are not, you know, validated by people. For example, somebody in Germany asked me for music of the Brandenburg Duets for a duo piano competition for their students. But they weren't accepted. The judges wouldn't accept them because it's not an authentic work for forehands, it's a transcription. And obviously, they don't know or didn't know, not that my transcriptions are so great, but it's just an unquestionable authentic, it has to be authentic. And they don't think to maybe question or to hear a new transcription, let's say. But even The cello suites as a pedagogical tool, people have so many method books and so many established routines of what they teach that, you know, I don't think it will be easy for me when I try, and I'm planning on trying to introduce these to teachers because it's just a matter of, you know, trying to make them understand how different this is and how worthwhile, but they can't really understand until they look or they're interested in. How valuable it would be for their students as opposed to so many other things that the students play, you know, even though they're so easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, tell me more about it. So what are some of the challenges you faced as an arranger, as a transcriber? Like, why don't they respect your work?

Well, they don't, you know, I'm not famous and, you know, I just think it's, It's routine. Don't you think that a lot of us teachers, and I include myself in that, you know, we sometimes just do things our way and we have, uh, our lives get in the way and we have so many other things to do that to constantly think, oh, what can I do that's new? Or what is out there that's, um, you know, things need to be approved. You know, you, um, not everybody is a forward-looking progressive. Piano teacher, you know. Sure.

Oh, but, you know, I guess it's me. I want to be progressive and open-minded and yeah.

Yes. And you are and you have a, you know, you have a podcast and you're doing so many things. Yeah. You're that kind of person. That's wonderful. And I feel lucky to be talking to you about this, but I have certainly met a lot of piano teachers and I've, I've, I've toyed with the idea of doing presentations at conferences, but it seems like they're all these, you know, it's almost like they're gatekeepers for all of these things. And, um, you know, to do a presentation at a conference, you know, you have to become a member. It just seems too much. Um, but when I send out, for example, a newsletter offering a discount or, you know, PDFs for, for them to try it, very few people are interested. For now, but it's a matter of time. You know, there's certainly, with time, there's a Russian edition of music, the main Russian, you know, almost the only one that has existed for over a century called Jürgenson or Musiker Edition, which unfortunately now because of the political situation is not accessible to anybody in the Western world. But they have published my cello suites. And they have published my Brandenburg Duets and orchestral suites, and they will likely publish the Lute Suites. And they're doing well in Russia because the pedagogical value of that, they're very serious about Bach, and they appreciate, you know, what I'm doing. And I'm very happy that, you know, people in Russia in the time of war right now at least have some more music to play. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I think that's why we're here, right? I really would like for my listeners to check out Eleanor's wonderful transcriptions and recordings of them, and also Stepping Stones to Bach. That's also their total of 48 arrangements of Bach's non-keyboard music. Right?

Choral. I would say 85% or 90% is not keyboard music. I do have some excerpts from the concertos. Okay. Just as, you know, the design for the stepping stones was mostly to have literally a one-page piece. And I know it seems silly, but there was a format that I wanted because I wanted people to look at a piece and think, I can play this. And I think one of the first seeds for those were actually the Cello Suites because, or was it the other way around? I did the Stepping Stones before the Cello Suites. Yes. There were some movements that I thought of maybe making an exercise book from Bach's excerpts. Um, because they're so good for the fingers as we talked about. Um, not as something that's of my authorship, but just to present excerpts so that people can use them. And then on my website, I do have a couple of exercises which people can download for free, which are based on Bach's E minor, um, Toccata, or, you know, the Beethoven 3rd movement of the Appassionata, where everybody struggles with, you know, the octaves. Staggered octave. So I make a little exercise with that. So I started with the stepping stones, was just finding an excerpt of something. And one of the excerpts is just the very beginning of the D minor Concertino. Da-da-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum. Because I think just playing that, the very beginning, is just so empowering, such a wonderful feeling. So that theme, it's an octave and and it's not difficult to play if you're a beginner. But I think the feeling of playing that can bring such satisfaction and then maybe listening to the entire concerto and the student can appreciate listening to that concerto. Let's say, you know, an 8, 9, 10-year-old, if they play the first theme, then listening to the concerto will be a completely different experience and level of interest. So for me, that was the impetus. Behind the stepping stones, and I think that was one of your questions, it's almost the opposite sides of the coin that for a student, it's a way to kind of feel as a part of participation in the larger output of Bach and then listening in the larger output of Bach, like a keyboard, you know, harpsichord concerto or a flute sonata. Or an aria from a cantata. And for the adult beginners who normally already know and love this music, it's a way to play something they love without struggling with the polyphony and without, you know, struggling with the self-doubt because, you know, adult pianists, amateurs, most of them and a lot of them are my students, and that's why my heart always went out to them when I'm doing this. They're just always so critical of themselves because they're comparing themselves to Yuja Wang or to Horowitz or Rubinstein, which is understandable. But the piano is as easy as it is in the beginning to play the right note, but the repertoire is vast and the stars that the amateurs compare themselves to and listen to, which of course they need to listen, they're just light years away and, you know, 30 years of practice away from the ability of someone who is maybe 60 and picking up the piano that it just results in this, the negative part of the experience and this lack of relaxation is so detrimental. To the experience of somebody like that, that I really felt that it would be great to create something that may be unusual, but will enable people, you know, for 2 minutes to really enjoy playing one of their favorite pieces. And I've been very gratified with many, many emails that I got about that particular set. Because, you know, I get emails from people who, have arthritis and say, you know, I just picked up the piano. I can barely play anymore, but thank you so much because I can play the prelude from the Cello Suite, or I can play the little aria, and they can enjoy themselves, you know, and it's so important for us to do things that we enjoy these days especially. So during COVID for example, I had the stepping stones and I sent out a new— every week I sent out a PDF to my newsletter people of a new stepping stone to kind of keep them interested in playing the piano. And that was really very well received.

To be able to play something that you hear on, you know, from the movie or from anywhere else, like a familiar Bach piece. And just being able to do that in such a simple way, but it's still beautiful, is— I'm sure it's so meaningful for, especially for adult students. And then for, as you said, mentioned, for kids, that's a great way to introduce to the world of classical music where you learn something simple on the piano and then later on, oh, I know this piece, right? And oh, there's something that such as Miss Such-and-such introduced me to when I was a child. Little kid and they, oh, this is the, oh, I didn't realize that was the orchestral piece.

And to go step forward, this is my piece. There's a little bit of that. And that goes a long way in internalizing and appreciating music, which we so much need to instill in our kids. And it's so difficult. Right. Yeah, it is.

And then, you know, since January of this year, the inquiries— because I now, I'm based in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, where I used to go to my students' homes to teach when I was starting out. Now I'm getting older, so I'm here. I want to open my home as a piano studio. So I get a lot of inquiries from adults. But last 3 months has been crazy. Oh yeah, I don't know what ticked, but it's quiet, quieting down right now. But till 2 weeks ago, almost every day I get emails, I want to take lessons. But most of them, as much as I want to, you know, include them, but it's difficult because some of them think that playing the piano is like pressing the button. You know that idea? Yes. So the reality when they come in there, how difficult it is, but I try to be, you know, very, very simple and everything. So most of them cannot, but some of them do continue. But it's just so curious to see this Gen Z that are popping up in this neighborhood and they, I don't know, they're trying to find something. In music, I guess something meaningful, something beautiful, something healing. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Yes.

And they do listen to music a lot. I mean, I have teenagers, well, 20 and 18 at the moment of our interview. And they're always, you know, they're always listening. They always have their headphones on. So it could be a mix. I mean, my children, My daughter listens to a mix of music, um, and my son, not as much, but I know that because they were exposed to classical music as children, they will always, um, be receptive to it. You know, and, and I'm just going to segue into a different topic, which is very important to me because at some point I would like to spend more of my energy when I'm done with transcribing and probably I'm not gonna be doing it forever. I think there's a very simple tool that we need to advocate as music educators, which is streaming. I think that listening to classical music, as you know, has been kind of put in some kind of a box. It's hard to understand, or it's elitist, or I don't know, they're dead white composers, all kinds of, things. And I think that, and I did a survey about this with my newsletter and on Twitter, the people who listen to classical music as adults are people whose parents listen to classical music in the home. There's just no ifs, ands, or buts about that. I mean, by and large, obviously there are people, you know, who as a teenager maybe had a teacher who turned them on to Bach or anybody else. It's all that. But these days with streaming, it's so simple to just press a button, you know, talk, not learn an instrument. I'm talking about fostering future audiences, you know, the people who will listen to my CD, the people who will support whatever's left of the classical or jazz or, you know, any music with, without words, right? Which people think, oh, they won't understand. And parents think that their children won't understand it. Because they don't understand it. But that is, as you know, completely untrue. And, you know, we're all receptive to music as children. And all that needs to happen is it needs to be playing in the background. You know, I don't think we need to talk about it. It's helpful to discuss it, but, you know, kids don't always want to discuss what's going on and, you know, their eyes will glaze over. But just having it there, you know, when they're, um, having breakfast, when they're drawing, I'm talking 3, 4, 5-year-olds before they can say, no, I don't want to hear that. I think that will keep them open to listening and to inquiry later. And I think people don't understand that, you know, and going to concerts is expensive and taking lessons is expensive. It's not accessible to everyone, but streaming is accessible to overwhelming majority of people. And that's, I'm hoping that more people will be doing that and actually have made some playlists on Spotify and on Apple Music, but I haven't had time to make more. They're called Classical for Kids, where, you know, I have different, you know, I categorize them by pastimes. Like I have Saturday morning music, which is mostly kind of up. And I also include some jazz. And I started lately including some jazz and some folk music because I think that comes under the general idea of you don't need words to understand music. But that's something that I feel very passionate about and would like someday to try to promote that in a more organized fashion. Yeah. Yeah.

Only if we have time, but you know, it's interesting because I also Through my podcast, we, I create a playlist, playlist of pieces that we talked about during the season, uh, through episodes. But I think creating playlists is a way to do, way to educate people. And, uh, even when it's like a little, I don't know about this playlist, but I think, you know, these days with algorithm, one thing to another would lead into this piece and that will lead into playlist. I think it's very important that every artist, especially, uh, those who are composers, even like with, uh, performing artists, I think in order for them to promote themselves, their work, I think playlist is the way to do, don't you think?

Yes, and that's, I definitely, I'm guilty of inserting my own tracks into my playlist. No, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, you know, I think for kids specifically, one can tailor things slightly, you know, but you're right. And it is a way that, um, the only way, you know, to really reach a wider audience these days because very few people own CDs anymore, CD players and You know, with all the retro movements right now where, you know, there are LPs now and even cassettes coming back, but it's really the streaming that gets the exposure. Unfortunately, it gets very little earnings to the artists, but, you know, we as artists know that we need to continue for art's sake because making money, you know, it is not easy.

I know, I know. Then you also have a very extensive YouTube channel, and I also watched you in the costume with the whole makeup from the Baroque era.

That was so much fun to do. Yes, I was obsessed with that for a week.

Wow. Where do you usually, um, do the recording? Is that your home in Brooklyn, or Yes. Yes. That's a beautiful studio with a beautiful—

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very lucky. Yeah.

Yeah.

I actually have recorded my last 4 albums in my home. Really? Yes. As a matter, it started with the cello suites because I own the Bosendorfer piano, which I just absolutely love. And the cello register on it is so beautiful that I think If I didn't have that piano, I wouldn't think of recording the cello suites because, because it's just the singing tone and the warmth and the expressivity of that particular register.

Wow. Yeah, it's just a beautiful piano. And then your channel is beautiful. Now, did you— so you have a sort of like a sound system or something, recording system?

Well, no, I mean, with my actual recordings, the albums, I had somebody come to the home and we were just doing it on the weekends in between, you know, takes in between the planes passing by and children playing and the birds, etc. And it worked because it was quiet enough. But the videos that I make on YouTube, I just mostly do with my iPad. I mean, once in a while, depending, now I have, I think, about 250 videos or so, which is mind-boggling. But I started all of this to promote the Brandenburg Duets. You know, I was told when I started doing them, and my goal was to make a recording, was that I need to get on social media in earnest and I need to start posting. And I had this idea of Monday morning Bach post. So in 2017, I believe, I started every Monday, I posted, um, on social media and then the same video went on YouTube. And that has been my kind of main tool in building up my social media following. And I'm still doing it.

Yeah, it's educational and you are actually quite natural at it on camera.

Well, I guess I became so, but I love making those videos because they're a great way of practice, you know, because you usually have to do quite a few takes and Every time you play it again, it gets better and better, so you practice up the piece really well and you memorize it.

The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song is now on Substack.

If you're wondering, Substack is an all-in-one platform where creators like me can connect directly with you, share exclusive content, and build a thriving community. By subscribing subscribing, you'll get behind-the-scenes updates, early access to new episodes, and special perks designed just for our audience. Your Substack subscription helps us create more of these meaningful conversations and support initiatives that uplift the classical music community.

So join us on Substack and be part of this journey. Please go to thepianopod.substack.com/subscribe or click the link in the description to subscribe today.

Thank you for your support, and I look forward to sharing more joyous and meaningful experiences with you on The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song.

What do you think about teaching polyphony? Maybe you already covered, but what I sometimes do is especially even like the advanced ones, because as a pianist, playing polyphony is not easy. You know, it is not. And then because we— sometimes I hear Bach Prelude and Fugue, especially fugue, I hear students playing in such a way that you just hear the harmony vertically, vertically, right? It's very hard to hear 3 or 4 different voices independently. And that's very difficult to do.

Yes, I think it's ear training. I think, again, the analysis is very important. It's very important to look at not only, you know, in a fugue it's difficult because there are many layers, but to look at the theme itself. To try to understand that as a unit. And then obviously, you know, to show wherever it occurs and so on, which I think most— is not difficult. You know, what we used to do, I used to do as a child studying, I used to actually rewrite the fugue in 3 different colors. I'm not saying that needs to be a method, but it helped. And certainly playing through each voice, it helps see the continuity of it. But it's certainly not easy. And again, I don't think everybody can do it justice. It's just one of those things. As you know, as a teacher, your students come with different natural abilities or different natural difficulties or weak spots. And Hearing polyphony and playing polyphony is just, not everyone can do it equally well. So you can definitely develop it by trying to go over each voice and analysis. But beyond that, I'm not sure. You know, structure, understanding the structures is most important, I think.

Yeah. I do a lot of color. Use different colors to, first of all, you know, divide that into different sections. Like, you know, this is the theme and then this is the section, the bridge section. So episodes, is that how you call it? Yeah. Yeah. That sort of things. Yeah. It helps, but it's not easy. Now, another thing would be articulation and pedal, right? So people argue about it. And then sometimes I hear students play so dry. That there are a lot of staccato going on. Yeah. So what is your take on those articulations and the pedal?

I think variety is key. You know, I like many ways of being able to play Bach. And of course, as, you know, as pianists, we often play the same pieces after we put them aside after an interval. And I find that with me, very often I find myself playing something, especially after putting it aside, in a very new, different way. And with Bach, it is possible. So I agree that certainly a specific way that people feel is proper for Bach is maybe historically informed and valid, and one needs to be educated and understand where that comes from. Yet again, sometimes it's just gimmicky, you know, and Glenn Gould certainly did a lot of new and interesting things with his recordings, but at the same time, they didn't always, you know, pay off necessarily. And then he, you know, would re-record things as we know. So I think it's important to use the resources of the piano, which can sound like a harpsichord with a certain touch and can't sound like an organ with a different touch and can sound like a piano. And as a matter of fact, in my last recording, the Absolute Lute Suites, I distinctly try to treat— I treat the first set as a pianist, a second set as a more of a harpsichord idea and touch, especially in the prelude, and the last one more as an organ. And I actually hold in the prelude, I hold some notes to create the chords because the music lends itself to that. So there is no one way to play Bach. I certainly use pedal. Again, one needs to listen and apply it in places where the harmony can be blended. There are plenty of places like that. So we need to use our judgment and certainly stop saying that one cannot play Bach on the piano. Bach used all the instruments that were accessible to him during his lifetime. And I'm sure he would've approved and would really enjoy playing on the piano or even on a synthesizer like Wendy Carlos or on the theremin like Rosalind Turek actually made her Carnegie Hall debut playing Bach on the theremin, which is a an electronic instrument that you don't even touch anything. It's completely energy-based. And, you know, it works. Yeah.

And then, do you know a pianist, Chris O'Reilly? Yes. Yeah. He did the whole Book 1 and Book 2 of Well-Tempered Clavier on virtual instrument. Yeah. That was interesting. You know, connecting the keyboard into his computer and then So each, you know, well-tempered clavier, every single one had a different temperament. That was interesting. That was an interesting concept.

I mean, there's, you know, everybody does their own thing and it's wonderful that Bach is a source of so much inspiration. You know, I think it's another thing that needs to be reconsidered from, you know, and departed from the historical period instrument ideas is the ornamentation and the once treatment of repeats. I actually just spoke to somebody who's writing a thesis on the well-tempered clavier and performance practices, and it was a very interesting young lady from Belfast in Ireland. When I was in London, I met with her, and she was questioning this stickler attitude toward ornaments and this whole historic instrument, you know, practice. And I think it's important. One thought that I had was new for me was that people who perform on period instruments by and large are not pianists, right? Obviously, there are keyboard players who play in period orchestras and they're trained and they're harpsichords and they certainly belong in those ensembles. Yet most of the people who thrive in the period instrument, you know, milieu, are usually string players, you know, some wind players who in a way feel that they are a more active, full-fledged, more lively member of an ensemble, right? Compared to a normal orchestra, you know, where there's a conductor that comes, tells you what to do. So I think for string instruments by and large, and, you know, oboes being a part of a, period instrument ensemble is a wonderful experience. For us pianists, it really is, we're not a part of that. And we play Bach a certain way that we're used to, that we're taught. And since we mostly play on our own when it comes to Bach, we have a lot more freedom to improvise or to do what, you know, Chris O'Reilly did, or to do all kinds of interesting things with Bach. And I think the treatments of repeats is very important in that I think we need to depart and be a little bit more freer with what we want to do right now, as opposed to do things the way they were done in 1750 or, you know, 1800. So I think it's also a very creative endeavor for pianists and a very liberating one. And to look into the text and see what can I do and how can I repeat things. And I find that listening to recordings, for example, I listened to probably 15, 20 recordings of the cello suites when I was doing the transcriptions. And, you know, as an aside, that was a huge, huge element of transcribing for me is the listening to prepare, because I need to do a lot of listening to everything extant for every one of those pieces to educate myself to different interpretations. And it's really, it was mind-boggling to me how few cellists did anything when they played the cello suite. You know, the iconic Pablo Casals, Rostropovich, they barely embellished. They do nothing, literally. They would repeat exactly the same way, even Yo-Yo Ma. And I was thinking, but why? They're repeating, they're playing 6 suites. They're not doing anything. And why is that? You know, I think people are afraid to ruffle feathers or they just don't think about it. But repeats were such an important part for a performer to showcase their creativity. Nobody in Bach times would play a repeat exactly the same way. And why should we just do a little trill when there's so much material in the music that can be a point of departure? So, and I write about that in my booklet notes, and I certainly do a few unorthodox repeats in my Lüt suites, you know, intentionally, because I want to show people that nobody's gonna fire them from anything if they do that, you know, and it just sounds a lot more fresh, especially for amateur musicians who are not secure in what they should do. You know, people who look at the score and, think that this is what they need to play, even if the score is edited by someone that perhaps wasn't even that educated, you know, but this idea of trying to experiment with repeats to me is very important.

Yeah. Thank you. Yes, that's true. And in that sense, like, as pianists, we are more creative, no? Because when we repeat something, whether that is Bach or Clementi— excuse me, not Clementi, Scarlatti sonata, even with the second repeat, or Handel, you know, suites. When they repeat, they have to do something else. Like we change the ornaments. That's how I was taught. So I guess we have more sort of sense of freedom and improvisation in mind. Yes, I think so.

And we are not a part of an ensemble, you know, at least There are pieces for solo cello and solo violin in the repertoire, but not that many from that period. And, you know, I once played with a violinist, the Bach sonata, and, you know, he literally did not understand that at some point I actually have the theme. You know, he's like, you're playing too loud. I'm like, I have the theme. You know, sometimes orchestral players, they're not trained to really try to listen to the whole. They know what their part is. I mean, obviously most are not that way, but we pianists, you know, the part of package of being part and parcel of being a pianist is to consider many different voices and to consider what to do and to have more choices. But I think it's important for other instrumentalists to, at least when repeating, you know, solo Baroque music, to do a little bit more. And I'm still not seeing it on recordings.

That's a very interesting point.

Yeah. Yeah. Even when you listen to recordings of, you know, Andras Schiff or all of the contemporary Bach specialists, Angela Hewitt, whom I love, you know, I admire both of them greatly, but I have heard them in concert playing, you know, all of the partitas and, you know, they do the series and It's just very surprising at how little is done with repeats.

Maybe, I don't know, it's a trend because Bach's era used to be more— the improvisation was encouraged. Yeah. And somehow that sort of disappeared, but it's coming back, the philosophy of of improvisation or introducing improvisation to music lessons or piano lessons, or even as a pianist, I think it is slowly coming back. Do you think? Yes. Yeah.

I think so. And it would be nice to also cross over a little bit in the actual performance of a repeat, even if it's, you know, I think people are, they want to ruffle feathers, you know, because they're critics and, Well, why is she doing that? Bach is sacred. A lot of people look at that as some kind of an effigy, some kind of a fossil that needs to be dusted off periodically. They don't see how Bach looked forward. And Schoenberg called Bach the first 12-tone composer. We all know that Bach is very jazzy. So, and especially if we consider by and large his music for other instruments, we see how much he was looking forward. And yet we treat him as somebody who liked to wear that wig.

I don't know how that happened.

Well, there's a lot of respect. There's a lot of respect and I'm not, I'm saying that I know, I don't know either, but I find again, in the past 10 years, I have grown a little bit less timid just because there's a part of me that's perhaps, you know, a little full of itself that says, you know, you worked hard at this, you transcribed the Brandenburgs, you did this and this. So if you want to do something a little crazy, people are still going to say, okay, well, Yeah, we'll let her, you know, we'll let that go because she, you know, she worked hard and she obviously respects Bach, you know. So, so I grew a little bit less afraid, as I said, to do some strange things and some jazzy things and repeats. But I think it takes a long journey for somebody to become a little bit less afraid and, um, coming from a different perspective like I do, because I, I'm certainly not a part of the establishment, you know, of the classical music. I'm not. You know, a widely concertizing pianist. You know, I come to it from, I've come around through this lens of transcription. So it's a different perspective.

Sure. But where did you get this love for, or bug for arrangements or transcription? Oh, those creative, that's a very creative side of music making, you know?

Yeah, it was always from wanting to play something that I loved. My first transcription was Night on Bald Mountain by Mozartsky. And I— Incredible, incredible transcription. I love Mozartsky. Thank you. And I was playing pictures at an exhibition and I was like, I wanna play this. And I was still in college and I created, and that was before the internet. And then, you know, I wanted to play a Tchaikovsky waltz from Eugene Onegin, a piece that I associated with my childhood. And I made that transcription and You know, at some point I did take, I was well-educated in high school and in college. I took orchestration courses. I took figured, you know, I took polyphony courses and I played four hands piano. So I felt, you know, and I do have perfect pitch, which helps in listening and analyzing what you're about to transcribe. So, you know, I felt like I was somehow qualified with my education to do it and came out well. But always in the Brandenburgs I wanted to play. And again, there are people who understand that whatever exists was unplayable because there's no famous pianist or duo that have been playing the Brandenburgs. How is that possible? You know, how is it possible that we've had for 100 years the Reger transcription of the 6 Brandenburg Concertos and we don't hear them in concert? From Martha Argerich, who constantly plays Four Hands, from anybody except Anderson and Roe, who played, who themselves transcribed the Third Brandenburg. And that's the easiest one to transcribe because it's the smaller strings only orchestration. You know, how is it possible that we have this music and nobody played it? Because it's unplayable. So, you know, to make it, I wanted to play it so badly. It's Bach. You know, so I ended up doing it. That's, you know, and fortunately I felt qualified because I have been playing forehands for over a decade and I have, you know, I can do that. But I'm not a composer, for example, although I'm trying to just do that a little bit just for fun because I like the process of creating a composition. But, you know, I'm not somebody who wants to, adorn what's written. Yeah, embellishments and repeats are one thing, but, um, I don't want to change something like the Brandenburgs.

It's been a really fun conversation. And so, yeah, so for folks who are listening today, please check out, uh, Eleanor's wonderful, wonderful transcriptions and recordings. Uh, you can go to her website at eleanorbindman.com. And also, you should check out her wonderful YouTube channel as well. And also, she has her page on Facebook and so on. Then I will list all the links in the show notes. Now, what's your next project? What's something you're cooking up right now?

Well, it's actually something that has been mostly cooked already. And again, it's a byproduct of the past 10 years. During my transcriptions of all of these places, actually all of these pieces, I also created some what I call stray transcriptions of Bach for piano solo. For example, I made some slow Brandenburg movements that are playable for piano solo because most of the Brandenburgs are impossible to do justice with just one piano. So I have some slow movements, I have some more arias, Like I included one track on the absolute on this latest recording of an aria from St. John's Passion, Betrachte meiner Seel, which originally was scored including a lute. And it's a very beautiful, but a more romantic sounding arrangement because again, a lot of Bach transcribed on the piano sounds very romantic because of the harmonies. And, you know, not written. He didn't write the aria for piano. So on piano, it sounds like melody with accompaniment. So I have about 8 or 9 of these pieces already done. And my plan is to do a few more, which are in the works, and then to try to, you know, sell it to a record label. Wow. So that, and that could be my last kind of Bach compilation because People have been asking me to do the violin suites, but for some reason I don't find myself interested in that. Okay. I don't know why.

Yeah, it's okay. So then you have, maybe you're going to move on to, who knows, Handel?

I don't know. I don't know. You know, I don't know. I find that this whole Bach thing came about gradually and it unfolded gradually. And, um, I didn't plan it. Certainly when I was done with something, sooner or later something else came. So I think as in any artistic process, one needs to maybe take a little break and just kind of tune out and then the new steps will become more visible in time. So I don't find that I have a concrete plan other than this next set of pieces. But I also, you know, I want to travel more. I want to experience more different things because my second child just moved out of the house. So I find myself a lot freer as far as my pastimes.

Now, I think this would be a perfect question to ask you because you are such a trailblazer. So how do you think, yeah, classical music, especially Bach, can remain relevant in today's world? How can we, as musicians and educators, engage with broader audiences with such a, you know, gem of beautiful classical music?

Well, I think that something that we already talked about, which is streaming, and streaming at home is probably the most practical thing to do. And, you know, that's, I think maybe we need to try to devote ourselves more to that question of creating playlist listening, somehow engaging educators and just kind of pushing the listening part as opposed to the, you know, music is good for the brain, so take a music lesson. I think we just need to promote listening and, you know, listening is a quality that we're losing a lot anyway because we're so bombarded by different stimuli. So I think the fact that Bach is so, it speaks so closely to some part of us that pays attention, I think it will probably go on. I don't really, you know, I think if it hasn't lost its relevance and so many people are doing all kinds of manipulations with it, I think it will be fine. I certainly don't think going to church, you know, is going to help the young generation to hear Bach. So any crossover, anything, any mixed playlists will be, you know, will be useful. But especially just listening, just getting used to that language and not treating it as some special occasion elitist, class-related thing at a—

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Now, what would you like your legacy to be as an artist educator?

No, I like the idea of the reconsideration of who we are as musicians of different levels and at different levels of recognition or fame. And this going back to the amateurs, and I certainly for the past few years, I have been trying to help adult amateurs feel more empowered, more comfortable with being who they are. And Being, you know, an important part of the classical music business and the classical music world and being the audiences, you know, the stars of the classical music world are wonderful people who work extremely hard and who deserve all the recognition they get. But there is a kind of a corporate feel to everything we're doing. You know, the famous people are such valuable real estate that, you know, even publicists, everything is invested into them and they're being literally worked to a level which they probably, you know, find difficult. We don't really think about how difficult it is to be Yuja Wang and what is her life really like and, you know, how is the day-to-day existence. I think there's this gap between people like that and then people who are not famous. And then they're the amateurs. So I think what I try to do by now is just to try to at least bring some more literature, some more works to the amateurs where they can feel that they're good. And I, you know, I'd be very happy if that would happen because having taught so many people and having sat there and had to assuage them and say, it's okay, I know you made a mistake. You don't need to explain to me why. Let's just get on and enjoy the music. I think that's as much as one person can do at the moment. But I also would like to, as I know I'm saying for the third time, I would like to do something more concrete with the streaming and listening at home idea. And maybe you and I can talk about it later. Sure. Yeah, yeah.

I would love to hear that. Yeah. And you're doing such an amazing job. It's engaging, educational. So that's exactly what the channel needs, right?

Yeah. Thank you very much. I think we all do what we can.

Sure. Well, this has been such a fun, inspirational conversation. But before I let you go, Eleanor, we have one more thing to do. It's called the rapid-fire question. So this is the part of the show where I get to ask fun questions to each guest. Here's a little twist: as silly as these questions may sound, your answers may reveal who you truly are. So ready or not, let's do it. Okay. All right, number 1: what is your comfort food? Potatoes. Oh yes, do you like mashed potato or a specific I love roasted potatoes, fried potatoes, French fries. How do you like your coffee in the morning?

I like a regular drip brew coffee with a little bit of oat milk.

Ah, oat milk. Nice. Cats or dogs? Dogs. Sunrise or sunset?

Oof. I guess sunset just because I'm usually awake for that more.

Summer or winter? Summer. Now, what skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?

Japanese language.

Oh yes, I'll teach you. Oh yeah, great. Yes, yes, that's my first language.

I'll teach you Russian. Oh yes.

What is your word or words to live by? Honesty. Honesty. What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

At this point, I have to say it is a calm disposition. I find that it's easier for me to be with people who are calm.

Name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead. This is hard, I know.

Well, I have to say Bach, I'm sorry. Krishnamurti, Jiddu Krishnamurti, a big influence in my inner life. And, um, gosh, there's so many. I have to say Rosalind Turek because she's, you know, she's occupational, but yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Wonderful artist. Yes. Name one piece in your current playlist.

Um, Enter the Aguas by Paco de Lucía. Oh. And I love flamenco.

Okay. Oh, okay. I need to check it out. Okay, great. Now, last question: fill in the blank. Music is blank. Music is life. Great. Now, that wraps up this episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Eleanor. A heartfelt thanks to you, Eleanor, for joining us today and sharing your incredible stories and insights and expertise with such a joyful, authentic manner. And to our wonderful audience, You can learn more about Eleanor and her work by visiting her website at eleanorbeinman.com and start listening to her wonderful albums on all streaming services, especially the latest one. And of course, thank you to our wonderful fans and listeners for tuning in today. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up and then subscribe to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song on YouTube. And don't forget to share and review this episode on social media and tag The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. I will see you for the next episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Bye everyone, and thank you, Eleanor, once again.

Thank you, Yukimi Song. Thank you. It was wonderful. Thank you.