Season 6 Episode 16: Joy Luck Trio -- Groundbreaking Pipa-Erhu-Piano Trio

Welcome to another episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. This season, we are exploring creativity and connection, highlighting artists who are reshaping what it means to perform, create, and inspire through piano in the modern era. Some episodes introduce a great artist; others introduce the beginning of something new. Today's episode is one of those moments. Donna Whang Friedman needs no introduction to our listeners, A returning guest and longtime friend of the show, Anna has built a multifaceted career as pianist, producer, filmmaker, and creative force behind numerous cross-disciplinary projects. Now she returns with an exciting new venture, Joy Luck Trio. Joining her are two internationally celebrated artists. Gao Hong is one of the world's leading pipa virtuosos acclaimed as a performer, composer, educator, and recipient of multiple major honors, including McKnight Artist Fellowships. Her work has brought the ancient Chinese lute to concert stages and collaborations around the globe. Karen Han Ottoson is a world-renowned erhu virtuoso, composer, and vocalist whose playing has been featured in major film scores including The Last Emperor, Memoirs of a Geisha, Mulan, Kung Fu Panda, Star Trek, and many more. Together, these three Chinese American artists are creating a rare chamber ensemble for piano, pipa, and erhu rooted in heritage and shaped by contemporary expression. In this episode, we explore how the trio first came together, the rich histories of the pipa and erhu, what these instruments can express beyond language, and why this collaboration feels so meaningful at this moment in their lives. We also talk about identity, belonging, representation, reinvention, and how music can honor the past while creating something entirely new. Before we begin, thank you for supporting The Piano Pod Your listening, sharing, and encouragement help sustain this growing community of artists and thinkers. If you are watching on YouTube, please like, subscribe, and share. If you are listening on podcast platforms, please follow the show and leave a rating or review. Here's Season 6 of The Piano Pod with Joy Luck Trio. Please enjoy the show.

You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the future and thriving in a complex, ever-evolving world. Welcome to The Piano Pod with Joy Luck Trio. Thank you all for being here. Yay! Donna, you are a familiar face and familiar voice to our audience, and you joined us in Season 2, and since You've been such a generous supporter of the show, and you were also part of our live event in October, which meant a great deal to me. So it is wonderful to have you back, and this time with your incredible trio partners. I would love for you to briefly introduce your colleagues to our listeners, their names, where they are joining us from, and the instruments they bring to this incredible ensemble.

First of all, thank you so much, Yukimi Song with The Piano Pod with for inviting us back, inviting me back, and for everything that you do for musicians. You highlight not just their artistry, but their stories. And you know what that means to me. That's everything. And this is really what Joy Luck Trio is about, because we are 3 Asian American, Chinese American women, and we play 3 different instruments. Gao Hong is a virtuosa pipa player, and she will explain more about that later for those of you who may not be, you know, knowing this. And Karen Han is a master erhu virtuosa, and that again, she will explain. But I will say that my father's favorite instrument was the erhu. He loved it so much. And so the three of us together, since I'm a pianist, we come from different parts of China. And we have different stories and different backgrounds, but our shared passion for the music— and it's not any kind of music in particular. What we do and what we want to do is share our traditional instruments, our traditional Chinese stories, folktales, our own stories of heritage, and we want to combine it with Western music. So it is East meets West in a very new, fresh way. I don't think there is or ever has been an ensemble of this nature. And so I think that our sound, it's going to be very different, but I think it's going to be surprisingly beautiful to everyone, whether or not you've ever heard these incredible instruments before, because My colleagues, their heart and soul like mine are in the music. They put everything, their feelings, their emotions, their stories, everything goes through and into the music to the audience. So I'm really excited.

Wonderful. So Karen and Gao, welcome to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. It's truly an honor to have you here, and I've been learning about your careers and listening to your recordings and soundtracks. From films and everything. And I'm very much looking forward to discovering even more about your artistry and these beautiful instruments. So, but how did the three of you first come together?

Well, I'm going to, I'm going to step in because Karen, I just was going over our Facebook messages. That's how we met all. Well, the two of them, they will tell their story, but Karen, sent me a Facebook Messenger back in 2024 congratulating me on my film, Never Fade Away. Her husband is in the film world. I mean, he's really— he's won 3 Academy Awards. He's an audio engineer, recording genius. And anyway, so she sent this to me because we are Facebook friends and she congratulated me and It was really fortuitous because I was just thinking about trying to collaborate more with different instrumentation. So then I started thinking about that, and then I started seeing Gao Hong. I mean, she is the most prolific musician I've ever seen. She's everywhere. She does everything. And I was listening to her music, and the two of them I mean, I was just amazed by their artistry and the beauty with which they present their music. And so I reached out to Gao Hong, and then I said, you know, I'm such a fan, and I'm a fan of— I don't know if you know Karen Han, but, you know, I would love the three of us to do something. And then Gao Hong tells me that they've known each other Right? For years. And then we just started having these wonderful conversations and very lively, very funny, very charming, and very, you know, we're really aligned on the same page. And that's how we started out. I'll let them tell you about their stories.

Sure. So either Karen or Gao, you want to add something to that?

I think Donna is our— the firecracker in our three groups. And she is the soul of the gel and putting all three of us together. And Gao Hong and I, we were back in the college schoolmates at the Conservatory of Music in Beijing. So, but she was in her area and I was in the West Coast. So we basically didn't get a chance to collaborate since we moved to the States. And when Donna gave me this great idea and I said, that is fabulous. And then 3 of us has a Seems like we come from different area, but we are somehow it's in one tune that we are all Asian, like Donna said, and we love, love what we do.

Gao Hong.

Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to emphasize that we really respect each other. I'm so admire those two, is absolutely my idols. And Donna, You know, I saw her, the movie. I saw her play with so much passion. And Karen, for me, when I first went to Central Conservatory, I was a freshman of undergraduate. And she was the first, the very first, only few to the master degree of the art. I would look up her, say, "Oh my gosh, she's amazing." That's how I always know. And I saw her performance. So many incredible performances while I was in school. I watching her, she didn't know, because even though my age is a little diff— where I may be older than Karen, because I— yeah, I think I worked 4 years as a teacher at the Happy Arts School as a pipa teacher. Then I went to the Central Conservatory. So I think we may either where I'm older than you, either we're the same age. But at that time, I look up her like, oh my gosh, she's an angel. And Donna's personality, just absolutely adore. I love that so much. I've been telling many people, I say, three of us is three different characters. But Donna is the one to hold it together. And her, yeah, her, for everything what she does is always put up with art. That's exactly what I like too. So, and so is Karen when she played the Ah Ru. That's my dream come true because I love Ah Ru so much. And I think our Hu Peipa and The Piano Pod can create such beautiful— I can hear it in my mind. That's why I'm so, so excited. It is such a great honor to have this opportunity to work with two incredible first-class, world-class musicians.

Yeah.

Well, thank you.

I look forward to it, too. So let's focus closely on these Chinese traditional instruments. Pipa and erhu, and the voices that give this ensemble its unique identity. So, Gao, let's start with you. You are widely recognized as one of the foremost pipa virtuosos in the world. For listeners who may not know, you know, this instrument yet, what does the pipa look like, and how is it constructed and played?

Okay, the pipa actually— thanks for your compliment— so the pipa actually, the 4 strings And originally came from the Barbary, Middle East, through the Silk Road. And then like they became the oud, then they went to East, became a sitar, a pipa, went to the West, became a lute, guitar. So we're kind of the roots of the Barbary in the Middle East. Then later we develop, it's about 2,000 years old. And the pipa is kind of like a plucked because we're same as the lute and the guitar family. So, you can imagine sounds like a guitar or mandolin or other thing you were thinking. But the difference is I— we will have 5 fingernails that also we can tell stories because the Chinese music always telling stories. So, you can imagine sound like a flowing water, bubbly water, horse trotting, horse neigh, and— geese talking. So it's literally, you can speak Chinese into like Karen's article, the same thing. So if you want to, I can send you the clip of one of her viral videos. It's 6.1 million views now. So that's the one thing I always do is to before either, and Any concert, small concert, big concert, I always introduce what pipa was. So that video, I think, will be very helpful.

My name is Gao Hong. I'm a Chinese pipa player and composer. I come from Minnesota in USA, and I play the Chinese lute called pipa, P-I-P-A. Everybody thinks the Chinese pipa like a guitar because it sounds like a guitar or banjo or mandolin. Actually, Chinese pipa, it's none of above, it's between. When you play the guitar, you pluck your string like this. But the Chinese pipa play opposite way. We flip out. Start index finger, middle finger, ring finger, pinky, and thumb like this.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

That's how you play the Chinese pipa. Also, Chinese music always tells you stories. Example, I will make sounds like flowing water. Or like Chinese people talking, "Ni hao ma, hen kao xin jian da ni." How are you? Nice to meet you. Or I can make people laughing.

Hahaha.

Yeah.

But you know, it sounds— although it's plucking, it doesn't sound like it's been plucked, you know, because it's so fast and then it just becomes like really like a creature. You know what I mean? It's incredible. I think it's due to your performance too. But you know what I mean? It's very, very fascinating instrument.

Thank you. It's a tremolo. The tremolo, just for years, that's how we do it. I've been playing for 53 years.

Oh my goodness. Wow. Lifetime.

Wow.

So, same question to you, Karen. You know, you are also one of the leading erhu virtuosos of your generation. And for listeners who may not know, so tell us about the instrument, please. Yes.

Like Gao Hu mentioned, my instrument is also originally from the northern China, like Hu. We will see like a Mongolia area. So the original name is the Huqin, not the erhu. It is about Less than pipa, we probably have 1,600 years history. And with the two strings, originally that from like Tang Dynasty, Song Dynasty, they have those poem and they mention about this instrument. The funny part is when I was in school, I dig into this instrument. Originally, it's also a plucked instrument, so you don't use a bow, but you use your finger pluck. However, gradually they developed using the horsehair, similar like a violin, viola, cello, and we use the horsehair and bamboo as the bow, and originally the string was silk, made by silk. So it is impossible to collaborate with our greatest Donna because she is in tune with it, and you too, Yukimi. So gradually, when the people are connected with Western instrument, we are changed the silk string to the metal string. And now we use metal string, and my instrument is 2 strings, no fretboard, and basically is really asking people just do your ear and your practice to make it tuning right. Yeah, and in very beginning, erhu is as like the poor time that people are starting play on in the street and standing, you know, put the erhu standing and walking around making like street musicians. And until like 100 years ago, we finally made it up to the stage as a concert hall, and we have concertos.

In the movies, you hear them in movies, and we just briefly talked about with Karen, you know, about that. So I look forward to dig into more, but wonderful. So then going back to Gao now, having trained at, you know, Beijing Central Conservatory of Music and carry this instrument on to major international stages, you represent a long lineage of tradition. So what makes the sound distinct from Western plucked instruments?

I think the pipa became popular because everybody can relate with the guitar. So then they can easily accept it. There's like a guitar, the tremolo, they will— especially classical guitar, you'll be so suffering because so difficult. But when the pipa can do It's opposite of the other way, so we can play faster and connected. So, the texture of the pipa and the color of the pipa really stand out, especially with the Western symphony. And because you don't hear the brightness, but also can be so deep. We have a lot of left-hand bend. You can literally bend 4 steps instead of the— Guitar only can do little tiny. We can go up big one because of the instrument, instrument made the way. So, we can pull. We can push. So, that also add a lot of flavor of Chinese tone into this. I think that's why I think the pipa is very special. It's storytelling, too. Like, we have 4 style of pipa. One of Pacific ones called the Pudong style, which means my teacher, Li Shicheng is one of the most famous pipa player. And he passed away, but I was very lucky. Was his student. Actually, was the only student beside his son ever recorded a CD and toured in the U.S. So, I was very lucky to have that. I wanted to continue to use the storytelling, the Chinese flavor of music style to pass on this traditional music to have more people accept and used to this kind of sound.

Now, Karen, how about you? You are also, as you said, you met, you guys met, Gao and then Karen met at Central Conservatory of Music in Beijing. So, and Karen, you were the youngest person to receive a master's degree with honors. Oh my goodness.

I was lucky. It's just because my mom, you know, she want me to go to school early. So I went to the first grade when I was 5 years old.

Oh, so now I know you're younger than me. You didn't know I know that.

So that's why I just gradually, gradually, and even I get into conservatory music at the middle school, I still the youngest one. And then Yeah, so I was lucky. This is just because of my mom.

Yeah.

But what makes your instrument so distinct from, you know, Western string instruments, in your opinion?

My opinion, as I mentioned, first of all, it is no fretboard. And it's— I always compete with my violin friends. So I said, my instrument is harder than you because of why?

I only have 2 strings.

Yeah, I only have 2 strings and with a little bit of bigger octave, and I have to jump up and down, up and down to make it happen. That's first. Second, I think it— Gao Hong just mentioned, we can I can bend my string. The violin cannot do. And so I bend my instrument, can make me sad, cry, or happy, or something that can more like you're talking about use my own soul. I remembered one time in Columbus, I had a concert. And I ordered in, and I was sitting inside the hotel, and I said, you know, just order in before your concert with the concerto with the Columbus Symphony. And I ordered in, and the person coming in, and before he left, he said, by the way, you sing so beautifully. I didn't sing. I played. I practiced. But it sounds like you're singing. I think that's because my dad loves singing, and also he told me, "Ah hu," in the very beginning. So everything coming into your— musical-wise, it's singing. So the breath changing and how you feel, everybody's different. So that's what I feel.. And I played a little different. Even I play classical erhu pieces, I play different than other people. So that's just what I feel.

That's very special. Well, yeah. So how were these instruments introduced to you, both of you? You want to start with Gao? You want to start with you?

Yeah, that's the— everybody ask it, that's the answer you don't want to hear it.

Oh no.

It's not the one, yeah, I love music, My mom forced me.

Of course, of course.

My mom literally forced me. And because she was a music teacher and I was 8, my first instrument was accordion because at that time with the Russians or Big Brother. So I was so skinny, my mom said, no future. Okay, go change something. So I changed it to a 2-string monk guitar. It's a Yueqin. But because of 2 strings, only 3 weeks I was on the radio, my mom said, too easy. Okay, change it to a 3-string. It's a Liuqin, it's kind of like a mandolin. Then after that, oh, too easy, change it to a zither. So I played the zither, I played the erhu, I played the violin, I played the piano. Until later my mom said, because my mom wanted me to avoid the Cultural Revolution, because during the Cultural Revolution, you had to go to the country. She said, "If you trying to find an instrument so difficult, your competition will be less." So, said, "Okay, pipa is the most difficult one. Okay, go learn pipa." So, my mom was right. After 4 years, at age 12, I became a professional musician. But I hate it. When I was young, we didn't have a Christmas. If I ever had my only wish, just never play the pipa ever, would be my favorite. Or no, no, it's in my blood. I, I couldn't let you take my pipa away. If you do that, I'll be very mad at you. No, it's like in my blood. It's— I love so much. But in the beginning, my mom locked me in the house 8 hours a day at the practice. I I hate it so much. That's why I always say when people ask me this question, I say, that's what you don't want to hear.

But it became your life. Where's the pivotal moment, you think?

Now it is. Now it's because my English is not good. I always tell people I'm speaking Chinglish. But when I hold my music, I can purely use my heart to to talk to. That's what I try to do. All my audience like my friends in my living room. I wanted them to be my friend. I wanted them to use my heart to tell you story. That's now is really part of my huge life in my life. I mean, it's a huge part of my life.

Yeah, thank you, Gao. And Karen, so what about you?

Similar.

That's why we're together.

When I was 4 years old, I love dance, I love singing, and so I can dance to the kitchen to grab a plate for my mom or something like that. And my dad at that time, he is more— now I say versionable, so he's a versionary. He said, "I don't think you are the dancer." And it's just like my mom.

My mom would never say I'm good.

"I don't think you're a dancer. I'm not sure about your singing. So why don't you learn this Arhui's, you know, I know how to play and you learn from me and see if we can find your job." That's amazing.

We're so much alike.

Yes, yes, I hate it. Like Gao Hong said, I hate it. And even I get into Conservatory of Music School, I feel honored, but I still feel very pressured. That means like all the best the best erhu player in their school. And how can you become the best erhu player? And my teacher never tell me anything I play good. They only say, "Bar 3, you short a little note." And, you know, "Bar 5, you supposed to change your bowing, but you didn't." So I never feel I got appraised. That much other than the school keeping sending me to, you know, like to the college, to the master's degree. At that time we only have 3 master's degrees. Now of course it has a PhD. But anyway, it was honored, so I played, played until one day that the school, our whole country started to only enjoy pop music outside of it, you know. And then I saw that I have to go. I, I can't stand and stay here. And then so after I had a concert in the States, I had 15 cities. I have tour, concert tour. And after that I said, here is my USA, is my, you know, second home. They love my music. They follow my concerts from city to city. Actually, that time from Philadelphia, where I'm living now, Philadelphia to New York, there's fans drive to New York to listen my concert and people crying in the concert. And I started know this is where I can, you know, blossom my instrument.

Incredible story. And you all are serious, I mean, amazing, accomplished, award-winning musicians, but you guys don't take yourselves so seriously. And then that's what I love about—

No, we have a lot of fun. We have so much fun. The first time we had a Zoom meeting because we were in 3 different time zones, Karen was living in LA, And Gao Hong's in Minnesota. I'm in New York. And I guess we never got the communication about the time zone. So I logged on, nobody was there. And then I started texting them, where are you? Where are— and it was so funny because the three of us are not very good with technology. We're very good with what we do, instruments, but technology is not. So we just kept saying, what's going on? What's going on? It was, it was so funny, but we have, I think having a sense of humor as an artist is so important because it's not about we don't take ourselves seriously. We take what we do very seriously, but the music comes first. We don't come first. And I think that that is what makes it charming and relatable. But I just want to add on my part, I only started taking the piano and I mentioned this to in season 2 because my pet parakeet died. And that's why I started piano, because I was so upset. They got a piano, I started playing piano. But I think the difference between our cultures, my being born here, is that after 10 years of winning competitions, performing everywhere, my mother said, okay, you can quit now.

That's a big difference.

That's a huge difference. So that's why I I didn't— I went to Juilliard Pre-College. I didn't go to Juilliard for college. I went to Princeton. I studied economics.

Now that I hated.

And so, so I actually was the opposite. So that after— and I loved my college experience. Afterwards, I went back to Juilliard for master's. But still, my mother says no. You have to be a real estate agent because then you can make money. So I got a real estate license and for one year I worked. I never sold anything because I have— I'm an artist. I keep saying, why would you spend so much money on such a small apartment? You know? So it wasn't until a friend of mine took me to Barge Music, to a concert at Barge, and I heard David Shiffrin, Paul Neubauer play the Kegelsatz Mozart. Trio, and I cried. And that's when I realized how much I missed playing, how much I needed to be back in music. And this is why Barge Music has always been a very important place for me. And I am so thrilled that the Joy Luck Trio is going to perform at Barge Music on May 3rd.

Yes, yes, wonderful. Yeah, we're gonna talk more about that all the future events and everything. Wonderful. Thanks for sharing, Donna. So going back to, well, I want to, you know, I want my audience to get to know Gao and Karen more because this is your first time ever at The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. So let's go back, Gao. In, you know, in addition to being a master performer, you are also a composer with commissions from leading orchestras and, you know, including Minnesota Orchestra and then the President's own U.S. Marine Band. Oh my Goodness. I've been listening to your album Symphony of Self. Oh, recorded with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra under Michael Paul. And wow, it's striking. And so these are your compositions?

These?

Yes. Oh, I composed everything. I orchestrated everything, every note. I played it too.

I know.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's, uh, that's really wild. It's a dream I never ever ever saw. If I'm still in China, I remember one of my classmates from Central Conservatory asked me, "Will you be a composer if you are still in China?" I said, "Absolutely not. That's impossible." So, the reason I became a composer was when I first came to this country in 1994. When I played in Denver, they announced on the radio, said, "Please come to see the Chinese woman play the pipa." 5 minutes later, somebody called, how could this Chinese woman play the pipa? They thought I would play the vegetable. So that's the reason. Doesn't matter how big a concert, how small concert, I always introduce what pipa was, what pipa is. So then, 1994, not many people know the pipa, so people give me this say, I give you an opportunity, you can play 10 minutes. So it's not respectful, say you're a musician, they just say, I give you an opportunity, you play 10 minutes. But Chinese people has two major style. One's called Wen style, is to describe the scenery, emotional, very soft, very elegant. The other one called Wu style, which means for battle. Storytelling, it's very powerful. So if I only have 10 minutes, there is no way I can play both. So if I only play Moonlight Over the Spring beautifully, just describe the scenery, people will think, oh, The Piano Pod is boring, you know. If I only play the ambush, which all the horsemen, the people screaming, and all the sword fighting, people will think, oh, people noise. So, then, I decided to say, "You know what? I'm going to write a piece in 10— less than 10 minutes. I can combine Wen and the Wu style in one." So, that was 1997. I became— I wrote my first pipa solo called "Flying Dragon" based on my true story. Because, like I said, the Chinese music always told you stories. So I talk about my story, how I— my mom took me. Fortune teller said I would be a flying dragon because I was born the year of the dragon. How I traveling, how my struggle, how my sad story. I hated the people, you know, with all the story, the struggle. So I just kind of use my heart, played. So after play, the people really say, oh my gosh, you're such a good composer. You should I do more. Then people start commission me from a string quartet, piano trio, guitar quartet, and then the symphony orchestra, then the choral band. My gosh, we have 5,000 years history in Chinese instruments. There's no brass instruments for 5,000 years. I never heard of a band in China. So, when they ask me to— when the President Ohm commissioned me to write, I even didn't know how that sounds like because I even never went to a band concert. So, I was brave enough to say, "Yes, I would do it." But so, that's really opened a huge door for me. Now, I really fall in love with band music. I just premiered last week. 2 weeks ago, February 12th, at the TMEA with the band, with the People's Concerto. That's never— no, yeah, that was so stunning, the color. Oh my gosh, so excited. So that's my story. I didn't think I will never be a composer, but I think if you use your heart, just think about it. And people all will ask you, how you do the composition? I'm not the trained professional people go to the computer, here's the chord major, here's the chord minor, here's the 7th, and that. You know what I do? It's always in my mind first.

I can hear it.

So the minutes went down, I say, Pippa and Arhu and The Piano Pod, oh my gosh, I said, I can't hear it, I can't hear it. I'm I'm so confident. So this is so good. So that's what's my— became a composer now.

But that's really what the great composers did. They heard it in their head. They didn't have computers.

And then we are so lucky and so honored to have an in-house composer.

That's right.

Oh, so of course Gao is going to compose and arrange all pieces for you guys, or she's already done?

We already, I already have one. It's going to premiere. You're gonna have more? Yeah, we'll have more.

Yes, we're going to talk more about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, great.

Wow.

So, well, and then also, you know, you're from Minnesota, so this, this town of St. Paul is like celebrated you for, and they're making a day of Gao Hong Day or something like that.

Amazing.

That is incredible. I'm so proud as a fellow Asian woman. I'm so proud. That's right. That's so cool.

I didn't expect that either.

Wow, great. Well, thank you. So, Karen, now I'm going to talk about you. I was just talking to you before you all joined, and, you know, I was sort of awestruck because you have the list of incredible film soundtracks that you're the soloist in those. You know, The Last Emperor? Oh, every time I hear that title of the film, just gives me chills because sort of that's the story of my basically ancestors, right? Because I'm an ethnic minority growing up in Japan. It's the product of that era of imperial time. And the movie is just You know, the memoir of the last emperor in China. And oh, and every time this emotional scene comes, it's your solo.

Wow.

And then you're also in movies like The Hurt Locker. I just saw it a couple weeks ago. Yeah, because I wanted to see it again. And then also Memoirs of a Geisha, Mulan, and Kung Fu Panda. Pirates of the Caribbean and Star Trek. Oh my gosh. I'm just name dropping. But wow, that is incredible. So just can I— so I saw Ryuichi Sakamoto. He's the composer of The Last Emperor in the West Village a couple of— 10 years ago, just before he passed away or something like that. And he was sitting there. And it meant so much to me because He was— he played an antagonist in that film, right? It meant so much, you know, as a minority. And then here's a big name in Japan, this artist, brave enough to play the part. And I wanted to say hi, but I couldn't. I didn't have the guts to say. But so that's like the really one of the many regrets of my life. But yeah, but it's just what it's like to be playing in those iconic films. I mean, you know, became iconic films later, you know.

Oh, thank you.

Tell me the story.

Yeah, well, it's a long story. Like what Gao Hong said, we've been playing this instrument for so many years, decades. The last emperor was a gig when I was still in school. And one of the composers for the film, Xu Chong, is our schoolmate. So he just come to our school and recorded that. This is for my— it's like extra money. And I never thought this is huge, that become as absolutely iconic film. And it's beautiful film by all the filmmakers together to make this happen. As again I said, every each piece I play when people hire me as a studio musician, I play, I use my heart. I try to enhance the film. I don't want to say I want to show off my erhu or, you know, technique or something. But I do want to watch the film and to go with it. And lots of— many of the composers writing the pieces, like John Williams, and he invited me to his studio. He said, "I never saw erhu before. I wanted to learn your instrument." And he used his pencil and on his piano and writing down while I play for him which part is better. You know, that it's just incredible, that touching me. Of course, there's many composers said that you can do improvisation from the films. I'm proud to be part of this, just to bring this little instrument, two strings, into our, you know, like music and film and the world. That's many of the people love lots of songs. And for, for you mentioned that The Heart Locker, the director Catherine Bigelow, he originally didn't want to have any music because he, she wanted to make it the whole thing It's very pure, organic. It's like a real thing happened. You don't have music. So, and then somehow that she went to one of my concerts I played, and she said, I just love this instrument. Can we put this in? So, and then after I saw the music sheet, I practiced at home. And my husband told me, said, "Do not use your band. It's not your Arhu music. Don't do your regular Vaborrato. Just use it, you know, East, East, you know, and then the style of whatever that we needed to be." So I said, "Okay." I tried that way and I did it. So made it become winning like 8 Oscars that night. And every each night when they said the winning, the Oscar goes to, and my music is coming up because of that only solo part. So it was really fun. And then, and for, for I mentioned that the Kung Fu Panda and the Kung Fu the sifu, Wu Gui, when he depart. And the composer Hans Zimmer think my instrument can go more philosophy and more deeper, more calm. So I had that solo for that part that become as adopted to many pianist and cellos and play that whole thing, becomes very popular film music now. And I feel so, so blessed. And in all the way, I have to say, because I live in LA at that time, so it's much easier to be recognized and to be a musician, an erhu player over there. As you know, I got The house was burned in LA, so, and our son come to UPenn for study and move it to Philadelphia. Now we have another door opened, so I have this Joy Luck Trail. So I'm so blessed. It's a new life, new music life for me.

Wow, thank you for sharing.

We're so lucky.

We're so lucky.

You're so lucky.

Joy and luck. We're joyful. We're so lucky. Oh my gosh, I love it.

Oh, we need both joy and luck right now so bad.

Absolutely.

Oh, thank you. Bring us more, please. Yeah, but I can already feel it. So before we go to the next one, but you know, Karen, what do you think the sound of Erhu resonates with? You know, so transcendentally, right?

It's your soul. No, nothing else. It's your soul. Think about it every time. So music is a universal language. So when you all inside, there's the same language and everybody has a different kind of experiences. You have a happiness, you have a sadness, but Arhu can bring you the deepest of your heart, your soul. To let it open, let it out. And many times it makes people cry a lot. Even in Japan, I had a concert in Japan before. A Japanese man normally is very strong, and they cried during my performance. So all those, I feel like, resonate something is beyond language, beyond that you can express that with the words. Is that way answered your question?

Yes, yes, yes, perfectly.

Thank you.

Well, you know, my father, as I mentioned, that was his favorite instrument. And he told me before I ever heard it, he said, when you listen to it, you'll think it's the human voice. And the first time I listened to it, it really sounds like someone is singing. And singing with such passion and depth. And it— there is that— the quivering of a voice when you are on that emotional brink. Oh my God. So it is— it is— yeah, it is quite extraordinary.

Yeah.

So Donna. Yeah. So what have you done? Before—

before I—

yeah, go ahead. I—

before I would get to that, I want to say about the pipa, because here I am I was born in this country and my father, my mother, they would introduce me to all the Chinese culture. When I was a little girl, it was the first time I heard both the erhu and the pipa. And this is what I told them. I said, the pipa makes me feel like there's just bursts of light. It's brilliant. And it gives me so much excitement. And that's really what it's like. And because of the plucking, even though it's a lot of plucking, I know that, that Gao Hong says, oh, it's too much plucking. But the plucking is, is that sparkle, and it creates so many different colors. And the erhu is that soul, is that incredible depth, the singing soul. So together, and then hopefully with The Piano Pod that has a broad range of warmth as we all know, and color, I think that this will be something— it'll create a new sound world that people will really, really gravitate towards because we've got— we covered the stories, the emotions, and the color.

Thank you. Now, Donna, so, you know, we collaborated last October at the Mannes School, and then so here we are in February. So Can you give us a snapshot of what this recent chapter has looked like for you?

So my short film, Never Fade Away: My Father's Story, I'm very, very proud and excited to announce that it is now on Apple TV and Prime Video. And that is something that never in my wildest dreams that I expect anything like this to happen. I mean, I never even expected to make a film that, you know, would touch so many hearts. But this is what I think our world needs now, is to share stories of heritage, because these are the stories that connect us, right? And, you know, we all have stories to share. And so when I started sharing my father's story, people would come up to me and say, oh, that's my father's story. That's my uncle's story. It's my, you know, And that to me, that gives us hope, you know, that we can get through the craziness that's going on in this world. So that's with that. But then, you know, after that, I think, you know, we did speak kind of through Stefanie DeKennessey, the composer who is on your show. And we had this wonderful album, Microverts. And so that was a wonderful experience working with Stefania, with Curtis Stewart, and now with the Joy Luck Trio, because they're going to improvise to a couple of the miniatures on my micro vids. And then I took one of those miniatures and I created a music video, A Silent Cry, and I did it just because I love the music so much. That music just— I became obsessed with it. It was in my head day and night. So I figured, well, let me see what I can do and create some visuals to go with it. And I, again, I was just shocked that it's won over 33 awards from film festivals. And it just last week, it premiered at the iconic Regal Union Square movie theater. And watching it on the huge screen was kind of overwhelming. I was filled with emotion, and Stefania was with me, and it looked beautiful, it sounded beautiful. And yeah, so that, that's been wonderful. And so now I'm working on a new film, and hopefully I'll be able to raise the funds to, to see it through. It's a very difficult time as we all know, funding for the arts. But this is another story. I mean, basically, these untold stories of extraordinary women of color really deserve to be told and heard. And so I will do everything I can to see this through. And then, of course, my beautiful Joy Luck trio. So lots of wonderful things to look ahead to. And I think that as long as there's music and love and laughter and stories in our hearts, you know, I think that we will be okay.

I think just the three of our stories already fascinating for me. I think we should just have a little movie called Joy Luck trio movie because— because, yeah, it is such an incredible combination. Three or four Chinese Americans have all different background and has all the passion, the same passion of use heart. That's the reason I love this so much because I can tell both of them with the passion with music. I love when I make music, even when I teach, I couldn't do without a heart. Even do a little, like, an example for my student, I have to use my heart. So I love this. I think you should think— you're so talented, Donna. You should think about a documentary or stories.

Yeah. Well, I want to share that, you know, we live in different cities and different parts of the world, so we haven't actually all been in the same city. To rehearse together, but we did do a trial run virtually on one little piece, Clouds, where they sent— I sent my piano part and then Gao Hong sent an audio part and Karen sent it. And this is just for fun. This is not for public sharing, but it is quite amazing how these three instruments blend together. It is— I was in shock. It turned a piece that, you know, I know in a certain way, and with this unique instrumentation, with this unique bringing of our stories together, it has a whole new different world created. And I think that it'll be very interesting for our, you know, audiences to listen to. So, you know, in our program, we are putting in some, you know, piece, a piece by Gao Hong, but also a piece that's very, very famous that they would recognize, but then they may not now because it's going to be a little different.

Oh, great. So, tell us more about the repertoire, right? So, Gao Hong, you are going to compose, you already did, and then Also, something to do with folklore, Chinese folk songs, or arranging those pieces, or?

No, my composition is not the folklore, but it's based on the Chinese Midwest. I mean, East Midwest, because when I compose, I don't want to lose my identity. So, have the Chinese musical flavor, Asian musical flavor. At the same time, I don't want to be taken from the old melody. So, I use the flavor of that to combine two together. So, but we are going to do some improvisation with folk tone. Then, when— that's what— but my composition is not folk tone. It's newly composed. It's a composition.

Yeah.

And it is so— Incredible.

Beautiful.

It is called Nostalgia, which is a beautiful name. It really captures what Gao Hong is trying to share. But it is— I think of this piece constantly. Be careful, I might make a movie out of it.

Yeah.

But it is, it is so incredible because there are two very contrasting parts of nostalgia and it really captures very much the Chinese style, but also bringing it to a more contemporary jazzy feel.

Oh, thank you so much. I'm so honored.

No, we are the ones who are honored to play it.

Yes, we are the honored ones.

So this "Nostalgia" is the first piece you're going to premiere?

Uh, the second and last.

Okay.

Yeah. So the first piece was actually Karen's idea, and she said to me, you know, I can play The Swan in G major. And I said, oh my God, that is the perfect piece to open the program because who doesn't know The Swan? So we're going to open with The Swan by Saint-Saëns.

I will be improvise. I will be sneak underneath.

Yes.

So the pipa will improvise. The arhu is going to play the cello part in, but in a very different way because it isn't, you know, the cello, it is the arhu. And then the piano part will be the piano part. So this is going to be our opening piece without us saying anything. We're just going to get on stage and let people experience The Swan like they've never heard it before.

That is wild. That's so beautiful. Sounds so beautiful.

Wow.

And then— Oh, I'll be there on the 2nd. So tell us, where is that debut concert be?

That's at the GLOW Cultural Center in Flushing. And in Flushing, there is a very, very, very robust Asian community that, you know, the night market is there. And so I, I also, I was born in Flushing. I was born in the Booth Memorial Hospital. So it kind of has a little bit of a sentimental feeling for me. And so when I spoke to the director there and it was like an instant connection that this was going to be the perfect fit for, for their series, and they have a special series about heritage stories. And so they are going to also screen "Never Fade Away" first before we do the musical performance. But after the swan, Gao Hong will talk about her instrument and she will perform two solo pieces. So why don't you talk about that, Gao?

Yeah, I will play one of the Pudong style, the signature piece by my teacher, Lin Shicheng. Is the Dragon Boat. That's the perfect, exactly the best example how the Chinese music integrated with the imitations of the sound, like a cheering sound, firecracker, and the people percussion band. You can hear the Chinese gong, Chinese drum, all together. And the second piece, of course, is "Tell My Story." It's a flying dragon. It's about my childhood, how I grew up. You can hear the sadness with uncertain. So, that's my two solos.

Wonderful. Karen, are you—

Yes, I will play two very iconic erhu pieces by Liu Tianhua, who actually learned Western music, a Western composer. At his time, and he really developed the erhu technique from one octave to three, four octaves. So I will play several. Like, one of them is called the Candle Flimming. So it's more like a, you know, like little jazz and like dance and with the candle flame. I love candle. So I love the flame and I twisted a little bit about the music. And so I played it a little bit differently. So I hope that the audience will like it. And the second piece, it's Birds Singing in the Empty Mountain.

It's also by—

Yeah. Thank you. It's also by Liu Tianhua. It's a little bit showing off your technique. It's like a jump down, jump down, jump down, jump down. And with a bird singing.

Oh, you can hear real bird there.

Yes. And then you have to make sure that you're in tune. So that is lots of a challenge.

Yeah.

But I hope that the audience will enjoy that too.

Yeah, yeah, that will be for all of us, right? All of us will do a horse race.

No, no, no, the two of you, only two of you are going to do horse race.

You will join us.

No, I'm not joining you.

Yes, you will.

No, I, I, you, you do the two of you, you two do the horse racing, you two do the horse racing, just the two of you, because it's, it's, it's great to have two after individual each one.

Yeah, we want to play piece to bring the people happy, and, you know, for the horse, always a good sign of a horse, Year of the Horse, right?

Right.

Yeah.

Then, The Piano Pod with Makrovids.

Then we will do 3 pieces from Makrovids with improvisation by Gao Hong and Karen, and it's going to be fabulous. Yes. So we will do that, and then followed by "Nostalgia" by the great Gao Hong.

Yes.

And then we're going to end with "The Three Maries" by Villa-Lobos. Now, this is a piece that's based on a Brazilian folktale about three little girls who grew up on the countryside of Brazil. Their friendship was so pure, and each one had a different personality, like the three of us, that the gods turn them into three brightly shining stars so that they may guide friendships all over the world. And I love this piece. It's a piano piece by Villa-Lobos, and the two of them are going to improvise to the piano. And the, the first one is Alnitta, the second one is Alnilam, and the third piece is called "Mantika." And I think each one of them really does represent each one of us, but you'll have to find out when you hear it which one.

Which one belongs to who?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, that's fantastic. So I thought that was the perfect way to end Joy Luck Trio with us.

Sure, wonderful. And then so I'm curious, like, the name Joy Luck Trio comes from the movie Joy Luck Club?

Yes, yes, yes. I read the book many, many times. I read it with my daughter, and I went to the premiere with Kari Tong, and we were there laughing and crying and laughing and crying. And after meeting with Gao Hong and Karen and talking to them and feeling so connected and with our stories, our mother's stories, you know, I just said, oh my gosh, we're like the Joy Luck Club. And that's how we came up with the name Joy Luck Trio.

I remember in the middle of the night, I think you said that. I got it, I got it. So when she said to say Joy Luck, I was overjoyed. I said, oh my God, that was So perfect. I was so excited. I see that just the name sold.

Well, the Joy Luck Club was my golden key to come to Hollywood. So I was— yeah, so it's just so nice to reconnect with this name.

Yeah, and it is basically so connecting to us because we are full of joy because we are so lucky to be in music. And so the joy and the luck is there, but also the three of us, because we are from very traditional Chinese families, we are superstitious. So we like the luck, you know, so we wear red and on the, you know, we announced our trio on the first day of the Chinese New Year. Now we all share that. I mean, I may be born here, but I've got all of that. You know, that's all part of my— Yes, we do. So that's why it was It really is the perfect, you know, the perfect name. And then, and of course, we assume that people will connect Joy Luck Trio with Joy Luck Club. I think it's a very fun way to get to know us.

So. Yeah. So where does this trio take you then after, you know, debut concert? And you also mentioned the next day there's something going on and perhaps the recording session as well. So anyone can— Yeah.

Well, you know, this is just— we're beginning a journey together. You know, this is the beginning of a beautiful journey where we are learning about each other, our musical tastes or musical styles. And, you know, we're going to grow together and flourish and keep sharing what we love with our audiences. So where it takes us, who knows? I mean, when I started Never Fade Away, I had no idea where it was going to go. So I'd rather not even plan about where we think we're going to go. I just want to enjoy every second with these two incredible artists. And for me, Being born here, I think it is a very deeply cultural meaning for me. You know, my identity as a Chinese American woman has been growing stronger and stronger. I have to say, since the pandemic, you know, with all the— it's funny, it's an odd thing that with all the racist and the anti-Asian sentiment what it's done, it's made me feel even more powerful as an Asian American woman. And having this journey with these two wonderful women, I think it just makes me feel so much more solid as a Chinese American woman. You know, I feel like I'm being accepted, you know, from, from you know, all sides. You know, it's always— I've always, you know, grown up, no one's ever really been racist against me. But sometimes you kind of fit— you're not sure where you fit in. You know, you growing up here, sometimes, you know, am I American? Am I Chinese? I can be both. And I embrace my Chinese side so much much now. And with, with these wonderful artist friends, I think that I'm very grateful, very grateful that they accept me and my stories. And I just can't wait to begin our journey together.

Great. What do you think?

Yeah, yes, since 3 of us not live at the same time, so that's why after a flash concert. The next day we're going to a barge music. So that's the— we'll perform there. Then after that, we'll perform— we'll be going studio to recording our first journey together. I think it's very important to have this moment to be recorded. I think that, like Donna said, we don't know what it would be, but at least we live at this moment. Our goal is to put our heart there, to express our feelings, express our music, to share to the world. And hopefully everybody can— we can move the people, we can touch people's heart. That's our goal.

Well said.

Yes, and 3 of us enjoy to, you know, collaborate each other and enjoy each other's character. And we also want our music to be, you know, confirmed by our audience. We hope, you know, many more people will listen to our music and will feel our, you know, hear and feeling our stories. And we definitely wanted to move on. And as I said, it's my next journey after I move into East Coast. It's a very beautiful journey just beginning for us. Let's dream big and hopefully everything is going to be fabulous. And thank you for interview us and thank you for letting our story to let your listener to listen this.

Of course.

Yeah, my pleasure. What an honor.

Yeah, and this is our first interview together. You are our first interview with Joy Luck Trio.

So yeah, yeah, I feel honored. Thank you.

So, and if you're in New York on May 1st, you can go to Times Square and there'll be a little, you know, celebration for AAPI Heritage Month. Joy Luck Trio will be smiling on one of the billboards once every hour for a day in celebration of AAPI Heritage Month.

Wow, that is incredible. Really? So the May 1st is the billboard at Times Square, and then May 2nd will be the debut concert in Flushing, and then May 3rd will be another concert, same program?

Yes.

At the iconic Barge Music venue in Brooklyn. And then hopefully one of those days you'll be recording at the recording studios.

We're going to be doing it right after Barge.

Right.

Yeah.

Guess what?

We're also trying to interpret with the music with the concerto. So 3 of people on our whole pianos together with the orchestra. I think that's the— our next big dream.

Oh my goodness.

And thanks to Gao Hong. Thanks to Gao Hong because she's writing it.

So yeah, that's right, our in-house composer.

Yes. And then that becomes an album, and who knows where that album will take you. I'm so excited.

And just being a fellow Asian American to be with you in this meeting together, the interview together, so Well, just want to wish everybody a happy Year of the Horse and, you know, for good luck, good health, lots of joy and beautiful music to everyone.

I hope our Joy Luck Trio will bring the joy and the luck to everybody.

Yes, happy forever. That's right.

And of course, thank you, Yukimi Song, again for inviting us. And The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song is, you know, an extraordinary series where, you know, we get to learn so much about so many artists from all over the world and so beautifully interviewed by Yukimi Song, who is truly one of a kind because she also is a storyteller and an artist. So, yeah, very grateful to you, Yukimi Song.

Thank you so much.

I'm a big fan.

Storytelling is everything, especially with the rise of AI and everything. What makes us human is the story, right? So it's a— yeah, I love what I do. So what's the best way to learn about your trio? They just to go to your each— Donna, your website maybe is the best way to— for the people to get to know.

Well, I think they could learn about all of us on our individual websites. On Facebook, we do have Joy Luck Trio Facebook page now.

Yeah.

So that we will add everything there. And then of course our individual Facebook and hopefully we're so busy, the three of us are so busy. Hopefully we'll have a moment to start planning a website, but right now the Facebook page will be the Joy Luck Trio's, you know, home, uh, and our individual websites.

Great. Well, thank you, Gohan and Karen and Donna, for sharing your artistry with us. And please keep bringing us joy through your music and your collaboration. So before I let you go, we have one more thing to do. It's called The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with rapid-fire questions. I didn't explain this to you before because it's a surprise. So we, we take this segment very seriously. So And then there, all the questions are carefully curated by my team, which is me, and it will give our listeners a glimpse into who you truly are. So let's do this. Question number 1: What is your comfort food? Go, Hong.

Chinese noodle.

Karen?

Noodles.

Donna?

Wonton soup.

Mmm, great.

Especially in the winter.

Yes. Question number 2: How do you like your coffee in the morning, Karen?

With milk, um, very, very hot.

Donna?

With milk and a touch of cinnamon.

Oh, cinnamon. Donghan?

I don't drink coffee. If I drink coffee, I wouldn't sleep for 3 days. I only drink hot water.

Okay, next question: cats or dogs? Donna?

Dogs. I have a dog at home. I used to have cats too, but I'll have to say dogs.

Yeah.

Gahan? I don't have it because I always out for the town, so I never had it, but I love cat.

Ah, I have a dog.

Of course, dogs.

That's great, wonderful. Next question: What skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?

I love to do a photographer. I love to take a picture.

Yeah.

Karen?

Drawing, art.

Oh, drawing. Donna?

Tennis. Pianists are not allowed to play tennis because of the wrist. And I did. I actually took off a summer to do tennis and I couldn't play piano. So, but I, God, I would love to do that. Yeah, I would love to play tennis.

Okay.

Next question. What is the most important quality you look for in other people, Karen?

Heart.

Donna?

That's a tough one. I think, yes, I think honesty.

Great. Gao Hong?

Kindness. I love kindness.

Kindness. Yes, great. Then the last one, fill in the blank. Music is blank.

Donna?

Music is my world.

Gao Hong?

Music is my heart.

Karen?

Music is my soul.

Oh, beautiful. So thank you, Joy Luck Trio, for joining us today, for sharing your artistry, your journeys, and then thoughtful reflections. It has truly been a joy to have you here. To our listeners, Joy Luck Trio will make their New York debut on May 2nd. Be sure to read the press releases and learn more about the ensemble. The links are in our show notes, and I encourage you to follow Gao Hong and Karen and Donna individually on social media to stay connected with their upcoming performances and projects. And to everyone listening, thank you for spending this time with us. I hope this conversation lingers with you. If this episode resonated, I would love to hear from you and leave a comment, share your thoughts on social media, and tag us @ThePianoPod with Yukimi Song. We'll see you next time on The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Thank you everyone. Thank you, Karen, Gao Hong, and Donna.