Season 6 Episode 7: "Between Worlds" feat. Mirna Lekič - Pianist, Recording Artist, & Scholar

I think for me, I experience music as a powerful antidote to suffering and to ugliness, and I feel a strong desire to help create beauty. And as a pianist, I find beauty in variety, in new ways of seeing and hearing, and in exploring the full capabilities of our instrument. Playing new music for me is like being a part of a living process. Something new has to come out of something old. It's the only natural way, and I think new music does this for me. And I enjoy also the community of new music. It becomes less about us, I think, as performers, and more about what we are presenting.

Welcome to another episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song.

This season, we are exploring creativity and connection, highlighting artists who are reshaping what it means to create, teach, and inspire in the modern world of classical music. Today's guest Dr. Mirna Lekić embodies that spirit through her multifaceted artistry. Born and raised in Sarajevo and now based in New York City, Mirna is a pianist, scholar, and educator whose work bridges intercultural dialogue, historical performance practice, and contemporary creativity. Her performances have taken her to major venues worldwide, from Carnegie Weill Hall to St. Martin-in-the-Fields in London, and she is equally passionate about nurturing the next generation of musicians as a professor at Columbia University and Queensborough Community College. In recent years, Mirna has released acclaimed recordings available wherever you listen to music, earning praise for her intelligent, sensitive interpretations and recently being named a laureate of the American Prize Piano Competition. She also took part in "11,000 Strings" at the Park Avenue Armory, a monumental sound installation that gathered musicians in a celebration of resonance, collaboration, and the collective voice of strings and piano. It's a project that truly reflects her commitment to the artistic intersections of sound, culture, and community. Before we dive in, thank you to our listeners for tuning in and supporting The Piano Pod. Your engagement, whether through sharing episodes, leaving a review, or simply listening, helps sustain this growing community of artists and thinkers who are redefining what it means to make music today. Here is Season 6, Episode 7 of The Piano Pod with pianist, scholar, and educator Mirna Lekić.

Please enjoy the show. You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the future and thriving in a complex, ever-evolving world. Welcome to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Myrna. Finally! Yay! Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. Thank you for having me, and thank you for creating this Piano Pod community for us.

Oh, thank you. Thank you for saying that. And, you know, I've been wanting to have you on the show for such a long time, and so I'm so happy that you're here. So for our listeners and viewers, Myrna and I actually go back a few years. We first met through Madeline Brewster's Art of Practicing workshops back in, I think it was around 2020, 2021 or so. And of course, Madeline was one of our wonderful guests from Season 1, actually. And then Mirna also came to The Piano Pod live event this past October, which truly meant so much to me. So, you know, you recently participated as one of the pianists in 11,000 Strings at the Park Avenue Armory, a monumental large-scale installation by German composer Georg Friedrich Haas. And this North American premiere unfolded over several days and featured 50 upright pianos. Wow. It was all microtuned and everything. So, but let's start with that. Can you tell us about the project, how you participated, and what was it about, and so on? Sure, sure.

It was really a wonderful surprise. And a gift. And the opportunity came unexpectedly late last spring when Park Avenue Armory disseminated a call for 50 pianists. So seeing this, I was intrigued and I submitted my resume and got to participate as a cover. So I attended the rehearsals and performed in 3 shows. And I was curious to hear what the composer Gerhard Friedrich Haas had done with this unique setup, which includes 25 musicians of Ensemble Klangforum Wien and those 50 upright pianos tuned 2 cents apart. So in a circular setup that was used in rehearsals and in performance, the piano that you are sitting at sounds 2 cents is higher than the piano to your left. And all the pianos from piano 0 to piano 49 cover the distance of a half step. And this allows for wonderful tuning that makes possible intervals and harmonies that are alive and sparkling, and one really feels alive and one with the sound. It reminded me that live performance cannot be replaced. For me personally, the piece itself felt like traveling through a forest of sound. At times, the pianos alone sound like a brass choir or like an organ. At other times, there are these fragile, glassy arpeggios that have a soothing effect. And other sections were more violent, so they would stir up so much sound, um, you would feel that it could sweep you off the ground. And it was interesting that all of this was created using acoustic instruments only. Right? There was no synthesized sound. So both the creativity of the composition and the great work that The Armory did in advertising, you know, we played sold-out shows of new microtonal music. That really made me feel hopeful about what we do. And I think given the times, that we live in, it was really much needed and greatly appreciated.

Wow, what an experience. I wanted to go, but the ticket went up so high that I couldn't in the end afford it. Yeah, but I saw the advertisement on social media a lot, and you know, not only you but also my colleagues, several of them participated. So I was like, wow, this would be a lot. I'm sure once in a lifetime opportunity, you know. That's wonderful.

It was one of those rare moments when so many pianists get together.

Right. Yeah, that's right. We don't do ensemble so much. Wow, that's great. So I know, well, I mean, that whole event project sounds like something that, you know, how you approach with the artists, like imagination and openness and deep sense of connection to people. So now I usually start out with this prompt, this question for each conversation. So let's start with this. What would you say is the core of your mission and your driving passion behind your work?

Yes, I thought about that. And I remember thinking about this before I decided to follow a degree in music. But I think for me, I experienced music as a powerful antidote to suffering and to ugliness. And I feel a strong desire to help create beauty, or at least not stand in its way, and to allow or help the conditions that allow beauty to emerge and to exist. So I strive for this in life and in work in general. And as a pianist, I find beauty in variety, in new ways of seeing and hearing, and in exploring the full capabilities of our instrument. So this has led me to seek out repertoire with a variety of compositional and performance techniques, and also to consider music at the intersection of different traditions. In the process, I feel that I deepen my relationship to the instrument, to myself, and also to our shared musical language.

Thank you for saying that. Now, I was going to talk about your background first, but because you mentioned about, the sound and also, you know, you mentioned something about variety. So let's start with your album, which, Mirage, which came out in 2023, a captivating exploring of sonic illusions and transformations. And, you know, the album celebrates the piano's extraordinary ability, like you said, to, you know, imitate echo and morph into other instruments. Yeah, I can't believe it was a piano album. Some of the pieces you hear didn't sound like a traditional piano music. So featuring works by familiar composers such as, you know, Debussy, Prokofiev, Gdański also. And then though you chose some of their lesser-known pieces, as well as 20th, 21st century composers like Alan Hovhannes? And then also, how do you pronounce this Azerbaijani composer?

Frangis Alizadeh.

Oh, wonderful piece, music for piano. Wow, it's incredible. So can you maybe take us, take our listeners on a fascinating journey where the piano becomes both a traveler and polyglot?

So yes, yes, that was the idea, right? It mirrors some of my life experiences, right? And oftentimes when I program, I deal with this aspect of variety thematically, right? So when I worked on my first album, Masks, it combined lesser-known works, 20th-century works, and revolved around this ballet that Debussy wrote for children dancers or marionettes called La Boîte à Joujoux, or The Toy Box, and then it included pieces inspired by other masked characters. And so Mirage kind of grew out of that. It's more of a multicultural tapestry than masks, and yes, it focuses on piano's imitative capabilities. But I think more abstractly, both of these albums explore the nature of adapting and crossing boundaries. And so you have these masks, languages, you know, behaviors we acquire as we navigate different environments. So I was curious to see how our instrument could do that. And I'm not sure how it all began, but it started during the pandemic. I was thinking about what to do next. And I had played some of this music before. For example, there is a piece inspired, or that sounds to me like bells very much. By Ukrainian composer Igor Shamol. That was the first, let's say, contemporary piece that I played. At Eastman, they had this requirement for your senior recital to include a piece written after 1964, and that's what I had learned back then. So I kind of went back to that, and then I had played several compositions by Frangise Alizadeh, whose music I really love. I recorded one of her chamber works on another album called Eastern Currents. And I looked, you know, I searched for, you know, works that could fit this theme. So I have— I was familiar, for example, Martin Scherzinger is a composer who was my music history teacher at Eastman. And I had listened to some of his extraordinary music. He's a scholar of African music. So the— his piece imitates the sound of mbira. Then there is another recent composition by Natalie Draper called Fractured Bells that goes into the bell category. And the album is organized really into chapters of sorts. So you have, as if you're traveling, you know, east, from the east to the west and then south. So there's some Spanish music, and there are, there is Armenian tradition. And Alan Jovanes, I was not familiar with his works much, but once you start reading about him, This was his life's work, writing music that crossed cultural boundaries. And what else is on the album? There's a short piece by Prokofiev, Imitating Harp.

Yes.

Obviously there's Cowell, his famous Aeolian harp.

Oh yeah, that was incredible.

Yeah. I think, um, this was A very exciting, very interesting project for me. And even though it seemed— it might seem random, all the pieces were really chosen as if it's a travelogue. Maybe at a time when I thought of it in pandemic, we couldn't do much traveling, so it was a way to experience that.

Oh, so you wanted to include compositions and composers from different regions, I guess. Yeah. Oh, wonderful. Yeah, I totally enjoy the music for piano. The first one you were playing by yourself, right?

I was playing— yeah, that's a solo piano piece and it requires minimal preparation. She asks that you place a glass bead necklace onto the lower strings of the piano, and the musical language blends traditional Azerbaijan Mugham music and Western classical tradition in which the composer was trained. So the scales are drawn or constructed like that, and the necklace helps imitate the sound of Azerbaijani tar, a string instrument. So you get these overtones, and that's where the effect comes from. It's not out-of-tune piano.

No, but at the beginning I thought you were— this was, oh, maybe she is doing a duet with someone, some traditional instrument or something like that. It sounded like it.

Everything is played on keys and it's that simple glass. I went through several necklaces trying to find the sound that gave it that shimmering effect. So, you know, the size of the bead, mattered, but that is the only preparation that you have. I had worked with my husband, who does some visual arts as well, on presenting it with video, live video, and we would present some pieces more as a narrative and others with just a series of images, and I think that also helped kind kind of unite the whole.

But one that inspired you to, maybe you mentioned already, but curate this particular program, you know, because I hear folk music, gamelan, you know, folk motifs to, yeah, different musical languages and really non-Western traditions. Were you always interested in that sort of folk music that is, you know, scales are not, in the traditional classical, I guess, palette or sound?

Well, I think there are two parts to that, you know, two ways that I can answer that. One has to do with this desire to seek balance after being so thoroughly immersed in Western classical tradition. And perhaps I was seeking that balance because I grew up with a lot of folk music, listening to folk music. So when I was a child in Bosnia or in former Yugoslavia, that is something that was really easily accessible. And there was a great variety of folk music in that region, or there still is. You can find things like Bosnian sevda music, which is something that grew out of the Ottoman period, but in spirit is very similar to Portuguese fado. You know, it's intense emotionally, it speaks of love and longing and loss. And then you have, um, multi-part a cappella singing from the Dalmatia, which is the Croatian coast, which has these Italianate harmonies and functions somewhat in like a call and response fashion. Then you might have Macedonian dances and songs. And I think maybe here it will be for the listeners, it's kind of similar to Bulgarian. Music. And you might even have epics, like long epics that are accompanied on a single string instrument called guzle. So, you know, you hear all this growing up. And there was a lively pop and rock scene as well, especially in Sarajevo. So it's there. And somehow I think, you know, I think when you receive formal training, at least the way it was in Yugoslavia. It is rooted in Western classical tradition. And then as you step into the real world, you look for those things, those other things that are also part of you. Um, last year I did a presentation at Columbia for a class, and one of the students— it was a presentation on prepared piano, and in particular the music of Alizadeh, because another work of hers called Three Watercolors that I had played involves some actual preparation of the strings. And one of the students asked me, how do I, or how did I deal with phrasing in this piece? And, you know, I stood there for a moment a little bit because I had dealt with it completely intuitively. And there is— this is not 8-bar classical syntax. It is very much, you know, kind of non-Western. It seems flexible. So I think I subconsciously approached it just as I would a folk tune. And that's what I told the student. I really came just intuitively, and I felt connected to this music. Now, when I look back, I think maybe this is the reason, having grown up with, you know, folk music that in some ways was similar.

Yeah, but to put that into this one album, it takes a lot of work and thought, thoughts, you know, thoughtfulness. And so, but yeah, I really, I, I think I listened to a few rounds because once you start it, like, you have to really go all the way till the end. Otherwise, yeah, I mean, each piece is beautiful, but yeah. And then I like the piece, Guero. Guero.

Oh, yes. Yes. Guero is on it. That was, you know, chosen out of my desire to learn a completely new language. So that piece involves you know, sliding and across the keys, kind of swiping in different fashions. The score, I wish I had it nearby here, but the score looks nothing like traditional notation. It's a series of gestures that are explained. So the challenge is finding direction and how do you build a crescendo in these gestures that you are not familiar with? How do you, you know, construct the story? So that was a wonderful challenge. And it takes patience at first with any— with new music in general, I think, but especially when it's an entirely new language.

classical musician, classically trained, we don't think about sound so much, surprisingly, you know? Like, I've been doing this podcast for a while, and then when I speak with contemporary composers, that's when I realize, oh yeah, we are actually sound. We deal with sound, but we think of tone. We think about phrases, just like your student said. Think about rhythms, but sound is a very different thing. And then, yeah, but the album, throughout the album, as if this was not performed on the regular piano, like there was like a sound engineer almost creating the sound, you know. I felt that way. Amazing.

Yeah, that was the challenge, was to select pieces where no electronics or technology was needed. Right. That's kind of the challenge I posed to myself. Partly because I'm not so good with these, but with new technology, but this, because this fascinates me. How do you do something with just given this instrument?

Right.

Yeah.

And I think the Alizadeh piece was the only one that had the necklace, right? That was the only preparation.

Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah.

But even like the compositions, like, you know, Fractured Bells, it did sound like bells, you know.

It's a beautiful— that's traditional notation and traditional performance technique.

For my audience, please, the name of the album is called Mirage, and you can listen to this album on wherever you listen to the music, Spotify, iTunes, and all that, right? Yeah, great. Now, is there anything else you want to add to this album, about this album?

I think the listener will decide how effective these imitations are, you know, and what works, and maybe think about why or why not.

You talk about promoting and preserving cultural diversity through music, and You know, it was really there. The word culture itself carried so many, you know, layers like language, faith, food, upbringing, climate, geopolitical nonsense sometimes or many times, and to even daily rituals. So here in this, we are, you know, both live in the new city of 8.5 million people. We are surrounded by countless versions of cultures. However, I find that not everyone is truly cultural, you know what I mean? Like, where we might live side by side with people from every background, but often culture is defined by zip code, lifestyle, also social circles, you know what I mean? Yeah. So when you think about culture and being cultural, what does that mean to you? How do you connect to your own heritage? We're going to talk about your heritage, but yeah, while staying open to the diversity that surrounds you, how Does the philosophy inform the way you make or teach music?

Well, yeah, you speak about people kind of being separate, right? And I think for us as artists, we aim to cross boundaries, right? I think that's just part of being an artist. And so when we think of cultural diversity, like you said, it can look like a place like New York City. It can also look like a single institution or a single teacher who chooses to educate through the lens of diversity. And I think that particular one, the last one, um, is especially important because it affects young people and it takes place in a school setting, which is one of those few places where where we mix, right, where we can cross the fences that keep us apart, whether these are educational, cultural, economic. And I think when you think about a single institution or an organization, you know, doing work, cultural diversity also exists within Western classical music.

Right?

But it needs to be more fully acknowledged. So when I work with Nana Ogwo and we put together programs for the new music series run by the Leschetitsky Association here in the city, we keep in mind this diversity, but we do not advertise the concerts as diverse. Per se, because we consider this the norm, right? And one other way that I think of diversity is through our curricula. For example, this past June, I attended a conference at NYU that was dedicated to the pedagogy of music theory, including global traditions, popular music, underrepresented composers. And at one point we examined 7 college theory textbooks. 99% of the material covered Western classical music, and very specifically from the second half of the 18th through the 19th century, and there was a heavy emphasis on harmony, right? So I think This can be a little problematic, as wonderful as it is to delve deeply into something, because it can leave us isolated once we leave conservatories. And then we, you know, my colleagues and I, we need to self-educate and keep a broader musical worldview in mind. But for me, you know, cultural diversity is always driven by this motivation to discover something new and interesting.

But tell me a little bit about— you use the word isolated, feeling isolated. Did you feel that after you graduated? And feels like, oh, I'm just curious about that.

Yes, I think, well, yes, I did because of the environment in which I taught. Right. So you imagine that you would be perhaps just teaching piano lessons in a school, much like the one that, you know, many of us would have attended. But my first job was at Queensborough Community College. And I've been there for, I think, like 15 years now. So I started working part-time as an adjunct, and then in 2016, I got a full-time position there. And so this is a community college setting. It was, it has been a wonderfully supportive community, which is why I've stayed for so long. And Also, it's very much representative of Queens. I think there are over 100 languages spoken there.

Yeah. In the, in the borough of Queens, right? Yeah. That's right.

And then in addition to this, um, variety, there was the variety of what I was assigned to teach. So the experience, our primary experience is with one-on-one lessons, but there I teach class. The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, Introduction to Music. These are courses for non-majors and a class called Musicianship, which is, let's say, music theory fundamentals with some basic piano and ear training. So I think in a setting like that, you are forced to adapt because you need to reach your audience. And in this case, the audience, you know, could be students who have had lots of experience and students who are entirely new to music. And you need to reach them through some common language or through something that they have never seen and they are oddly fascinated by. So I think this kind of adapting has been a trademark of my teaching because I had every year I had revised what I taught there depending on what I saw and how the students responded.

Wow, your students are lucky to have you.

Yeah, thank you.

I want to take classes from you now. So Then let's talk about your personal story. As much as you can, I want to hear your story of resilience and reinvention, you know, crossing borders not only geographically but musically. You've shared that your multicultural background and experience as a war refugee from Bosnia and Herzegovina deeply informed your commitment to cultural diversity through music. You were born and raised in Sarajevo, right?

Yes.

During the incredible turbulent time in the 1990s. So am I correct?

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. Could you take us back to that period? I mean, not to dwell on the hardship or anything, but to help us understand what it was like to live through that time. Because I was on the other end, right? I was watching the news every day. About that. So, and then, you know, you pack up everything and to begin again in a different country, and then how those experiences shaped your outlook as an artist and human being.

Yeah, well, my first piano lessons took place in the primary music school in Sarajevo, and I think that was when I was 8 or so, because one could attend a regular school and a music school where you would go twice a week for piano and solfège. And like all education in former Yugoslavia, these were— this was free education. So that's something that I have come to realize the value of, you know, after coming to the United States. And I don't come from a family of musicians. So, you know, studying piano gave me a sense of independence and a sense of identity. Then 4 years after that, everything was interrupted with the start of war, and Yugoslavia was no more. My city came under what would be the longest siege in modern European history.

Like 3, 4 years, right?

That's right. Longer actually.

Yeah.

Oh, oh wow. And so my mom, my brother and I became war refugees at that time. Most of my family stayed behind, including my dad who was able to join us later when we arrived to the United States. States. And I was 13 at that time. The town that we resettled in, Glen Cove on Long Island, is one of the most diverse places on Long Island. So that kind of fits into the story, you know, coming from Sarajevo, which was very diverse in its own way, to Glen Cove, and having one of these teachers like the one that I mentioned to you when speaking about cultural diversity in high school there, who introduced us to a lot of things that New York City had to offer and also introduced me to American music. And then of course, later I went on to Eastman, so I spent a little time in Rochester. And I returned to New York for my graduate studies. So oddly enough, all of my time in the US has been spent in New York State.

Wow. Okay.

Yeah. But luckily for me, through the turmoil of these war years and refugee life, my, the way that my family maintained a sense of stability and normalcy was by helping me continue music studies in whatever way that was possible, whether that was in former Yugoslavia or when we resettled in New York. And this is when I really benefited from music and realized its power and its value, because many people would consider music study unnecessary and completely impractical. Especially for a refugee. But my mother understood that for me and for my brother who also played, music was a healing presence. It was a steady friend, um, and a steady ground in new environments. And practically that meant, you know, making hard decisions about where you put your resources. But today, when I play and when I teach, I am very much aware of this important connection that one can have to music. I'm aware of the sacrifice, or rather devotion would be a better word, that music study demands, and of the role it can play as a lifeline and as a source of support. For someone else.

That's a powerful statement, especially someone like you who went through that time period of your life and such a, such a critical age, people say, right? 12, 13, right? And made that move and family moved out of oppressions. So it's clear that you have transformed your life experience into a profound creative force? How do you— your memories and heritage continue to shape your artistry, the way you play and teach and connect with audiences?

Well, I think the important thing is always to remain true to yourself, to be honest to yourself. And I encourage my students to do the same. So you do this by selecting repertoire that you can connect deeply with. And I also aim for this sincerity in the delivery of repertoire. So I think, you know, in one way, the heritage and all this innovation that comes are just a natural process for me. That's how I have experienced it.

Every artist encountered some kind of struggle at different points in their growth. Were there moments in your early training, whether physical, artistic, or philosophical, that you only later understood as struggles that shaped the direction you eventually took?

I'm not sure that it was a struggle for me, those, um, in that sense. Um, for me, it always seemed like a series of things that needed to get done, and if this is what was presented to me, that's what I learned. So it only came later with reflection that I decided to seek out some new things. And it's only really now that I'm also learning, like you say, are there different scales? Are there different things? There was a book I discovered called Other Classical Music. Or music.

Oh, I wanna read it.

I wanna read it. Other Classical Musics. Yes. I have to look for it. So, you know, this exploration continues, but, you know, some of the struggle, for example, can come from the fact I have a relatively small hand. And, you know, if you are studying with people who come from tradition of Rachmaninoff and Liszt, you know, in some way, yeah, that is a struggle. I mean, you keep doing what, you know, what is assigned. I will never forget the moment I was at Cornell at one of Malcolm Bilson's programs there in the summer, and I touched a forte piano and all of a sudden it fit my hand perfectly. So, um, that was one of those wonderful moments when you actually realize that you might have been struggling without knowing. Right. Yeah. I'm thinking if there were other moments like that. I think it also has to do with having a teacher who might allow your voice to exist more fully. A lot of times in instruction, you will be corrected constantly, right? You will do something and you will be given an alternative or some way that this music should be, you know. And I remember when I came for my doctoral studies at the Graduate Center, Ursula Oppens was this kind of teacher for me. She would kind of look at me and say, well, what do you think? You know? And you're, you're, at first I was like, well, you tell me what I should think.

You know?

Like, yeah. But, so that was really, really freeing. And I think I find that same freedom in new music because it's something where I feel I can bring myself, where I can focus on creating a story in sound without too many preconceptions, that I can go through the discovery process myself without shoulds, you know, this should be this way or that way. I think it keeps it incredibly alive and I'm grateful to my colleagues at the Graduate Center who introduced me to new music. You know, I told you at that point I only played like one piece from 1964.

Yeah.

But it's playing new music for me is like being a part of a living process. A lot of the times, you know, I'm thinking of this word struggle that you mentioned. We are, doing a kind of archaeological process. You know, we are excavating, we are preserving. And while that's worthwhile and needed, something new has to come out of something old. It's the only natural way. And I think new music does this for me. And I enjoy also the community of new music. The, you know, this, the open-mindedness, um, the interest in creating, connecting.

And in a way, it's like, like a healthy, uh, relationship, don't you think? Like, it's not much of a competition, like, because you're not really aiming to play this one famous piece performed by thousands of people, you know what I mean?

That's right. And you're not placed in that line. You know, a lot of audiences in our kind of insular world will go to a concert and evaluate for the sake of placing, ranking somebody in this long line of people who had played a particular piece. And you don't have that in new music. It becomes less about us, I think, as performers and more about what we are presenting, and I really appreciate that. I'm not a big fan of the spotlight. I think all my life I have preferred to practice more than perform, um, until I really discovered new music, because there was a spontaneity that I did not feel I could always achieve. So maybe that's That can answer your question about struggle, you know, that for me, this lack of spontaneity perhaps was source of struggle because I was thinking we could fix it by composing our own music. We could fix it by like what I've tried by relating to these less confined folk traditions. Or maybe not fix it, address it, you know, explore it in this way.

Right, right. Yeah. And also, if I wanted to go, you know, perform or learn contemporary music, then, you know, in my time when I was young, it was all about 20th century atonal. And so although I loved, but then I can't just play them all the time. I need to go back to tonal music or some sort of— I want to hear cadence something. So in that sense, do you think that 21st century, this contemporary compositions are sort of coming back to tonal and also, you know, blending of folk music like we talked about? Do you think?

Yeah, I think the palette is just so incredibly wide. So you never know what you're going to discover. And also what I like is that I can always find something that I truly enjoy. Mm, I think that, yeah.

The next day, Taro asked Kaguya, "What troubles you, my dear daughter? It is said that one should never look at the moon for too long. I have seen you several times these Past days kneeling, looking at the moon. So you hinted about storytelling, so I want to get there because, uh, you explore the storytelling through visual mediums, combining sound and imagery and motion to create immersive experiences. You've collaborated with shadow puppeteers and other visual artists, and I saw a little bit of a behind-the-scenes kind of a YouTube clip that you posted on your website. Wow, incredible. Tell us more about that.

Yes, so as I was finishing my doctoral studies, the final recital included this piece that I mentioned earlier, Debussy's La Boîte à Joujoux, The Toy Box. And Debussy indicated that this is a ballet for children or marionettes. So I thought that wouldn't it be wonderful to present this using shadow puppetry? And a friend of mine, a wonderful artist by the name of Zahra Partovi, introduced me to Caroline Borderies, who is a French shadow puppeteer who has worked in New York for many years and lived in New York for many years and done many shows, especially at the Metropolitan Museum. So I got to meet Caroline and our first collaboration was on this Debussy ballet. So we told the story, right, of the ballet, and there is a solo piano score accompanying it. Then after that, we did a few productions where we used shadow puppetry to really clarify the action. So it was more like a recital with shadow puppetry visuals. And then more recently, we have done a lot of work with the Charles B. Wang Center in Stony Brook. Caroline had been performing there for some time, and usually we're asked to create original stories that relate to their exhibitions. So, so far, I think we have done 6 original productions. And this has also been a wonderful way for me to discover new repertoire because we're primarily dealing with Asian cultural or artistic traditions. So discovering, you know, some music by Chinese composers, Korean composers, Japanese composers even. I played some music by Komitas, you know, depending on what the story is. And this has been the segment that you refer to, the behind the scenes. Yes, that's one of our favorite parts, and it really shows. It's a way to connect to the audience. So we, after the show, there will be a Q&A. And the audience, many of whom are children, are invited to go backstage and see how this ancient art form works. So this is the most contact I've actually had with an audience post an event, and I think it's really effective. There's something very intimate about this medium, you know. We cannot perform it because of the size of the screen, We cannot perform it in a, you know, very large hall. There is usually a single instrument and narrator oftentimes. So it's been a joy for me to do this, and I think it draws upon a childhood dream of working in Disney, at Disney Studios, and writing or selecting music for their animated shows. So I have so much freedom. They are wonderful to work with. I get to explore repertoire I never would. The stories are educational. They're fun. They're really moving. And I have, you know, I've been really blessed to have found this as an out— as a creative outlet.

Wow. And then, um, what sort of stories do I get? Do you pick a modern story or do you create a completely original, or was there a writer?

So I remember we did a show that was based on some of Rumi's poetry, so we would take poems and then retell those stories. Then we had done a show called Xiang Niang Tricks the King, and this is based on a folk character from Laos. And really, these are stories about how this little, you know, Xiang Niang gets to a better life by tricking everyone along the way. So this was one of the humorous ones. We have done there also some holiday presentations like Nutcracker with piano and shadow puppetry. We have done stories about traditional ways of making textiles, um, so we would create a story perhaps of a mother teaching her daughter this and what this means. So it depends what the exhibition is. Before that, we had done a show that was all about water. And so it was a bunch of piano pieces inspired by water and then the stories, you know, that they told, or a lot of them, you know, would just be suggested by the title and we would elaborate on that.

And then you get to pick pieces that you want to play according to the story? Yes.

Yes, exactly. Absolutely. I'm— it's just me and I get to do all this as I like. So yes, I, I really enjoy it.

And how do you pick these? Um, you, you have to— you must spend so many hours of research, extensive research, to find the right pieces, contemporary pieces mainly, or do you use some—

yeah, at first I start, you know, I would draw from what I knew. I would be thinking about pieces and thinking, oh, what could fit in this scene, et cetera. So a lot of those were like impression, a lot of impressionistic music. But in recent years, yes, it has been a lot of research. And I do one of my favorite activities, which is go down the YouTube rabbit hole and, you know, search and try to be authentic, you know, so it doesn't look like some sort sort of parody of, especially if it's a tradition I'm not familiar with. They have another show coming up this year. I was busy because the show was earlier on, and usually it's a December show, but they have it on November 9th. And this time my husband is doing live electronic music for the show.

So your husband is a musician?

Yes. He is. So I've asked him to take over this time and— Wonderful.

Oh, wow. What a collaboration. Now then, you also have this another project that you do. Like you are the founding member of Ensemble 365. So can you tell us about that?

Yes. That was something I did in the past. Several years right after graduating from the CUNY Graduate Center. I formed a group with some of my colleagues and we worked together. One of our projects which fits this theme of multicultural music were a series of recitals and the recording that came out of it called Eastern Currents. So that was all dedicated to contemporary music. Work from Asia. There were some trios, duets, some works featuring composers from the Graduate Center. And since then, most of us have kind of gone our individual ways and life has gotten busy. But I continue— I'm looking forward to doing something again with my flute and piano duo. This is with, again, with another colleague from the Graduate Center, Roberta Michel, who actually introduced me to real new music and showed me how not to be frightened by it. So I hope that in this coming year I'll be able to do something with her. Again, there's always a kind of multicultural slant to the programming. But that's in terms of collaborative work. That's where I am now. Last year when I was on my sabbatical from Queensborough, I worked on a two-piano program with pianist Vladimir Vayyarovich. And this was a program dedicated to music that was influenced by the sound of bells and other metallophones. So it was titled Tintinnabulations. And there was a more recent work by Nina Siyoung that was inspired by the bells, that Danilov bells that hang at Harvard. There was Poulenc's Sonata, a work by Crumb and, um, at the first moment of his otherworldly resonances, and a transcription of Balinese gamelan by Colin McPhee. So all this was the program, and I'm hoping that we're working on doing video recordings of this, so I hope I can share this with the viewers soon.

Oh, wonderful. As you mentioned that you're a professor at Queensborough— you, are you still a professor at Queensborough Community College?

Yes, I am.

And then recently, was it recent that you joined Columbia University as a faculty member?

Yes, this is my 4th year at Columbia. Yes.

Oh, wow, that, that's a, such a big position. So, and you have also taught pedagogy at Mannes as well. Right? And then you also contributed the groundbreaking volume, Humanistic Pedagogy Across the Disciplines: Approaches to Mass Atrocity Education in the Community College Context, which explores the use of music and arts to foster empathy and social awareness. Tell me more about this writing.

Well, that came out of a series that we did several years ago in collaboration with the Kupferberg Holocaust Center, which is located on Queensborough Community College campus. And, um, it was a program funded by the grant, um, the National Endowment for Humanities grant. Uh, the goal was to help our students become aware of history and, um, current events and to develop better listeners and active participants in today's society. So in terms of the musical activities that were tied to that program, there were a series of presentations, study units, assignments, and we wanted to help students translate the history of genocide displacement and exile, which was the theme of the whole project, into personal stories told through music. And this, you know, I think the whole experience based on the responses that we got and the artifacts that we collected was that students got to Thanks to music, students got to experience and vividly live someone else's music story, right? And that music became a medium for healing and reflection. So in one of the projects, students collected personally meaningful repertoire And they noted how music served as a mirror also that can hold all of us accountable, you know, for things that happen. And it works very well within the community that is Queensborough. And the chapters that we wrote and that were assembled and edited and put into that volume came out of that particular program. In terms of adapting, like, one common thing that guides all my teaching, because of the bumpy road that I myself have had, you know, with interruptions, with, you know, having other interests, and at times, you know, career in music did not always seem like it would be likely. I try to make a learn— for my student— to make the learning process for my students easier. So with fewer corrections, with fewer things to fix later on, and I really believe in self-directed education. So that's something that would be the common thread between all of these places where I teach. And, you know, amazing. The thing is I teach different things there. As I mentioned earlier, there are courses, you know, group courses at Queensborough and at Columbia. These are one-on-one lessons at Columbia. When I read student comments at the end of the semester, oftentimes they focus on the satisfaction of personal achievement and the fact that music was that kind of safe oasis for them amidst all their other, other things that are going on in their lives.

Oh, how wonderful. So at Columbia, you also— are they non-music majors?

Correct.

That take lessons?

Currently I have a studio of 8 students. In the past, I would have 12. It depends how we, you know, are able, you know, how many students there are and how we divide them amongst ourselves. But yes, I think I have 2 students who are music majors and others study other things. Some come with quite extensive prior experience and Some are beginners.

Oh, how fun.

Yeah.

Yeah. It really is.

It really is.

Yes.

And I appreciate the one-on-one because we get to really become, you know, friends.

Let's get into some philosophical conversation here. Like, in a time when the role of classical musicians is constantly evolving, you know, and what do you see as the artist's responsibility to society today?

Well, you know, we have to be that mirror of our world, but at the same time encourage people to see things in new ways. I think in that way we cross all these boundaries, always, you know, seeking that best of humanity.

Then also because you are teaching at college and there are some major music majors, piano majors, so, How do you encourage those young pianists to find their authentic voices while, you know, remaining rooted in the classical tradition?

I mentioned earlier that I believe in self-directed education, right? It's really the only kind of education that we can have when you think about it. Yes, we can offer so much to our students, but unless they take it in their own direction and apply it to how we, you know, in ways that matter to them, you know, it needs to be continued this way. So I think our job as teachers is really just the beginning of that journey. So it needs to be a lifelong journey. And I think studying classical music really gives a great foundation. We learn to understand this language, its vocabulary, and with these tools we can then understand something else if that's what we choose to do. And obviously, like, as a tradition itself, it's full of beauty and wisdom and creativity. And I don't know, I think it— I don't know, it sets a standard, you know. It's not something that can be created, um, quickly, right? It requires skill, it requires reflection, it requires knowledge. And especially in the times that we live in, um, it is really good that it cannot be consumed in 30-second bites, right? So I think this is what it— this is the strength that it gives us.

What do you think the role of educator now? Like, you know, because people have access to many things, like they can listen to music almost free, for free, right? That which wasn't the case before internet. And I had to go and discover the music at the store. And then even this one store can't have everything. But now it's a plethora of music of any genre, right? So if even it comes in a video format as well. So then some adult students would come to me and say, oh, I learned Chopin Scherzo No. 2 by watching a video. I was like, what? And then he's like super beginner. So there are so many. Wrong finger numbers to the technique and everything, but you can hear the music, you can hear the scherzo at the beginning. I was so impressed. So in a way, people can learn from videos and so on. So what do you think the role of educator these days?

Well, you have to help them sift, right, through all the material that's there. So there are guidelines you can suggest. Oftentimes, you know, in my classes, I will draw from certain YouTube channels and tell them, okay, these are sources I think that will be helpful to you. And if you mention this kind of learning, which we have all encountered, then, you know, you can show, like sometimes I would show, for example, Irina Gorin's videos, you know, where she would do a short technical demonstration. And you have students try this and then decide, you know, which, which do you think you would rather do? So it becomes kind of their own decision, and you are helping, helping them find a way through this jungle of everything, pretty much, you know. And if you say go listen to a piece, then you have to say please find a few recordings, you know, tell me what you listened to, why did you pick this. I mean, that has been there also before, I think, you know, we might have had students, you know, who heard Glenn Gould and then decided, oh, I'm going to imitate Glenn Gould, right? That's something that I could imagine happening before. Yes. So I think what we give to our students really is our own experience in which we have shed all the things that did not serve us. And so we can offer them this filter in a way, like, listen, you know, I've changed my technique many times. And like I mentioned, I tried to save my students from this process, right? So I can share my own story and say, yes, please do not play this way. Even if your body is somehow able to withstand this, don't do it because there is a better way. Um, or, um, you know, and I think sometimes I think about this because they will make their own mistakes and it will push them in one direction or another. So personal experience like this is valuable. I think what you offer— yeah, what we offer is our own and kind of advise them this way, try to help them navigate the many things that are there, ask them questions, ask them to reflect. I always begin when I see my students, especially when I meet my new students, it's always like, what is your goal? What would you like? You know, and then we kind of build from there.

We're almost coming to an end of our conversation, but before we wrap up, I'd love to hear what you're currently working on and any upcoming performances or recordings or any projects maybe you can reveal to us today.

I have these upcoming video recordings that I would like to make of that program, Tintinnabulations. And so I'm working on that as my, you know, teaching schedule allows. And I am trying to put together a program of contemporary flute and piano music with my friend, flutist friend Roberta Michel. So that's kind of what I'm keeping in mind for the next few months. Wonderful.

Now, when you think about your journey from Sarajevo to New York, from performer to educator, what do you hope your legacy will be? I know you're still very young, but both artistically and personally.

I would like to be remembered as someone who helped create moments of beauty with my community. Maybe be remembered as kind of that annoying person who insisted on high standards. Maybe. Other than that, you know, just being a good parent, good daughter, good partner. Good friend. It sounds like the pioneer pledge I gave when I was 7 in former Yugoslavia. I promised to be a good student and a faithful friend. Yes, you did.

Really? Wow. Yeah. And which I'm sure you are. And I mean, you were because you were supportive. For coming to the live show about a month ago and really meant a lot. So yeah, thank you.

It was really wonderful, and I'm so glad that you're bringing us all together and showcasing the variety and really amazing work that's being done.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I really wanted to showcase that, you know, 4 different stories, but just contributing to the society and the communities, different communities by, you know, music and music education.

So yeah.

Bravo.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, bravo to you too for your dedication. So for our listeners and viewers, please go to mirnalekic.com, which is M-I-R-N-A-L-E-K-I-C. Lekkic.com to learn more about Mirna's amazing albums and also the shadow puppeteer that she mentioned today. And also you can listen to her music on iTunes and Spotify and so many other music streaming services. All right, then the rapid-fire questions segment is here. Now we take this segment very seriously. You've shared your stories and expertise today, but these questions, carefully curated by our team, which is me, will give our listeners a glimpse into who you truly are. So let's do this. Now, please answer each question with the shortest response possible. No explanation is necessary. Are you ready?

Yes.

All right. Level 1, fun and light. Number 1, what is your comfort food?

Chicken soup.

Oh, so good. How do you like your coffee in the morning, Mirna?

I don't drink coffee. Oh, just water.

Just water, not even tea?

Sometimes, yes, I drink tea sometimes, though not in the morning always. Coffee gets me too hyper. Oh, I love the taste.

Cats or dogs?

Dogs.

Sunrise or sunset?

Sunset.

Summer or winter?

Summer.

Level 2, it gets a little difficult.

Okay, now I'm nervous.

What skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?

Oh, there's so many, but musically related, maybe composition, improvisation, things like that.

I know, right? Yeah, me too. Yeah. All right, what is your word or words to live by?

I would say persist.

Favorite venue you have performed in, or maybe dream venue, but favorite venue?

That is an Excellent question. I once auditioned at the Performing Arts Center at the University of Maryland, and I remember the light in the venue and the wonderful piano. I think it's the Clarice Smith Performing Arts Center.

Really? Wow, that's very specific.

Maybe that one. I love venues that have light. Lots of light. And this is why I thought of this one.

Now, what is the most important quality you look for in other people?

I would say sense of responsibility.

Name a composer you wish more people knew about.

Frangise Alizadeh. Also my husband, my husband, André Brejéjère. Okay, André Brejéjère.

Okay, I will look. Look him up on Spotify? Is his music on Spotify?

Yes, there should be some there and on his website. And he does mostly electronic music these days.

Okay, cool. I'll check him out. Now, level 3, 2 more questions to go. Name one piece in your current playlist.

Oh, you know what? I don't have a playlist.

Oh.

I don't. It seems like I have music with me throughout the day, and I don't listen to it when I walk.

I know, right? That's like the last thing you—

Yeah, usually I just seek out things as I need them.

Yeah. I found that a lot of musicians are like that. And then I thought of myself, I don't have it either. I don't listen to music in such a pleasure way, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's a part of our job. So I'd rather listen to podcasts, actually. Yeah, the words.

Absolutely right.

I miss listening to words. All right, the last question. Fill in the blank: Music is blank.

Music is essential.

That's the first one. Yeah, no one said that before. Mirna, thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your artistry and spending time with me like this, and your thoughtful, thoughtful reflections and insights with such openness and creativity and grace. And to our audience, if you would like to explore more of Mirna's incredible work, please visit her website at mirnalikic.com and Listen to her acclaimed recordings available wherever you listen to music. And of course, a huge thank you to all of you, our dedicated listeners, for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up and subscribe to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song on YouTube. And also share and review this episode on your favorite platform and tag us @pianopod with Yukimi Song. It's one of the best ways to help us, our community, grow, and we love hearing your feedback. For the latest updates, guest news, and stories that inspire creativity and connection, follow The Piano Pod on Substack, TikTok, Instagram, and LinkedIn. We'll see you in the next episode of The Piano Pod. Thanks again, Mirna.

Thank you so much.

That was wonderful. Thank you.