Season 6 Eps 2: "Boundless Creativity" feat. Mada & Hugh Piano Duo on Love, Life, & Artistic Freedom

Music is the universal language. Well, if it's a universal language, we have a syntax problem because most of the people just don't understand what we do. I would say our mission as a duo is to bridge worlds and to make the world we connect to more beautiful.

We, we come from very different cultures, and the fact that we come together as a four-hand piano duo sharing one piano and we have to make things work and making music to share with people, I think, sends out the message that music truly connects people regardless of their background or cultures or—

I think the piano in particular is one of those unique instruments that has truly been able to bridge so many cultural barriers. This remarkable machine, 300 years of development, pieces of physics and art and engineering, has come to be so beloved by so many different cultures and peoples around the world, and that it's truly a piece of art that helps us to find a common voice.

Hello friends, and welcome back to Season 6 of The Piano Pod, our season of creativity and connection. I am so excited for today's episode because our guests really bring those two ideas to life. You may know them as Mada and Hugh Piano Duo, Romanian-born pianist Madalina Danila Korean-American pianist Hugh Sung. But let me tell you, they are so much more than a four-hand ensemble. Their performances are electrifying, their arrangements imaginative, and their videos pull you right into a world where tradition and innovation meet. What makes this conversation especially meaningful is their story. These are two artists from very different backgrounds who dared to take risks, reinvent themselves, and build something entirely new together. From Madelina's deep dive into George Crumb and her Romanian roots to Hugh's pioneering work in music technology, like co-creating AirTurn, and entrepreneurship, they have created not just a duo but a shared artistic vision built on resilience, creativity, and love, with their dog Zeus often by their side. In our conversation, you will hear about their artistry, their bold arrangements, the unique challenges and joys of four-hand piano playing, their entrepreneurial spirit, and what it really means to bridge cultures Through music. Before we begin, I want to pause and thank you for being here. Every time you hit the thumbs up, leave a rating, subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, or share an episode with a friend, it helps this work continue. It truly means the world to me, and I am so grateful for your support. And I also want to remind you about something special. The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song in concert at Stiefel Hall, presented in partnership with Mannes Prep at The New School, a pre-college music program offering comprehensive and nurturing pre-professional training. Please join us on October 4th for an unforgettable evening of music, conversation, and community. So with that, here is Season 6 Episode 2 of The Piano Pod with the award-winning Mada and Hugh piano duo. Please enjoy the show. You are listening to The Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the future and thriving in a complex, ever-evolving world. Madalina and Hugh, welcome to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Thank you for being here today, and you are truly captivating duo, and I'm so excited that you're here, not only for your artistry but for the way you've built your brand and life together, and performances that bridge cultures and generations and the repertoire spanning classical masterpieces to your own well crafted arrangements of pop tunes and so on. And your videos and podcasts, you know, we are fellow podcasters here and are super educational, that really invite audiences with clarity, warmth, and joy. I'm so looking forward to exploring your individual projects as well today, and then entrepreneurships also. So as we begin, I'd like to start with this question. If you were to describe your mission or passion in a few words or in a sentence or two, how would you describe it?

So for me, it's making music, living an artistic life, and sharing my talents and my gifts and what I believe in with people and making this place better as much as I can.

Beautiful.

Yeah, I think it's a wonderful statement. For me, I come from a place where I'm very conscious of the fact that what we do as pianists, as musicians, is very— how should we say— very disconnected with the modern world in some ways. So, and I remember very much as a child growing up not understanding the musical language at all and struggling with, you know, being forced into this world of playing and playing all these wonderful masterpieces, but having no idea what anything meant. So, for me, my passion, my personal passion has been to connect with audiences and really help them to feel welcome, to learn about what we do, to share how beautiful music can be, and to understand that there can be a lot to absorb. To try to make what we do as presentable in a way to— so that we are— so that our art is as welcoming as possible to as many people as possible, not just art for its own sake.

Oh, well said. Thank you. And would you like to say as the mission as two, as a duo?

I would say our mission as a duo is to bridge worlds and to make the world we connect to more beautiful.

Yeah, first of all, we come from very different cultures, extremely different cultures and backgrounds. I cannot emphasize different enough. And the fact that we come together as a four-hand piano duo sharing one piano. So it's not even, you know, two instruments. So two pianos, but one piano. And we have to make things work. We have to collaborate at all possible levels and making music to share with people, I think sends out the message that music truly connects people regardless of their background or cultures or ways of thinking or political ideas, you know, et cetera. And yeah, I think our goal becomes their goal. So it becomes unified.

I think The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song is one of those unique instruments that has truly been able to bridge so many cultural barriers. This remarkable machine, 300 years of development from Cristofori's first pianofortes to what we have today. It's just amazing to see how this complex, one of the most complex pieces of physics and art and engineering, has come to be so beloved by so many different cultures and peoples around the world. And that it's truly a machine for intents and purposes, a piece of art that helps us to find a common voice. So I would say, if we were to make it a marketing speak, maybe 4 hands, 1 piano, and 1 world.

1 world and 1 piano or something like that.

4 hands, 2 hearts, and 1 world.

Yeah, exactly. 1 world.

Yeah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Now, The hardest question of the day is over. So well done. Yes.

Yeah, that's something we really need to kind of spend some time. That's a great, great mission statement question that I think we still need to work through. But thank you for getting us to at least think about it.

That's a great question to think about. Exactly.

No, thank you. But, you know, it's nice to have intentions to anything we do. And actually, you both are actually doing it. So that's why I thought this question to start out with would be really appropriate today. But I can't help but notice this little baby here. It's my friend Zeus.

Can you introduce us?

We have, for those who are listening, we have this little puppy that on the screen that Madalina is holding. So can you introduce us?

So this is Zeus. He is a 10-month-old Coton de Tulear. I know that for many people this breed can be pretty unknown and it was unknown to us. Before we found out about it. And well, yeah, I think he is the glue between us. So I would— one of the many, one of the many glues. Yes. And I would say that he's also a very important part backstage in terms of our duo and in terms of our communication skills. And I would like to add that, you know, as an individual, that one of my life's goals is to have as many puppies as possible. I love puppies. Enjoy a life with puppies.

He was like, no, no, no.

But we do have Zeus on stage with us as often as possible. You know, it's interesting, as young as he is, and this particular breed is very friendly and very sweet, just got the most wonderful disposition, and folks are just amazed that he will sit on stage with us, just quietly. He enjoys the music. We take bows together with him. Travels on the plane with us. He's been a wonderful travel companion, stage companion. He loves it and he loves people, you know, and just the most remarkable, remarkable dog that we've— I've ever met. And so to have him in our life.

And he has a such a— I don't know, such a good look, you know.

He may say so. I think so too. He's just got this— he doesn't look real. He's like—

yeah, he doesn't look—

he looks like a doll.

Yeah, he's on batteries or something.

Yeah, that's true. Well, welcome, Zeus. So now I want to continue our conversation from your— you choose as a duo together. So, you know, forehand Duo playing is such a fascinating genre, you know, rooted in tradition. However, it's so innovative and creative at the same time, right? In your case, I've been taking the artistry really further, adding visual elements and one, you know, choreography with crossed hands, you know, and then even percussion effects like Katchatorian's saber dance. Oh, so tell us, Tell us about this Four Hand Duet thing, like the artistry of Four Hand Duet, why you were so attracted to do it. Well, you know, obviously it's more practical than to channel. Yeah, tell us.

Well, I mean, I think there will be opportunities for us to— and we're actually looking into doing a two-piano program later on. Again, whenever the opportunity is there, we can certainly fill that in. But pragmatically, for most of the concerts that we are booking, you know, one piano is just easier to, to get concerts for, just pragmatically speaking.

I think he wants you.

Oh, okay, it's my turn. So, um, certainly Anderson and Rowe have been very influential in terms of their physicality, and I think I, I just admire so much how they've brought a lot of innovative ways to, to, to blend a whole, you know, forehand technique on just another level that I had never seen before. And it's interesting, we're in the process of doing a retrospective on the history of four-hand piano playing music, you know, and it seems to have— there were some earlier works, but Mozart and his sister Nannerl were really the first to, you know, they wrote for themselves. They were the first to be the sensationalized duo as children, but, for so much of that time, that there were zones, polite zones, you know, the male secondo, the lower voice on the left hand would be in his zone, and the female primo would be on the upper part of the piano. They would stay in their places for the most part, and then it's not until we get into more of the Romantic era that we start to see naughty hand crossings.

So, you know, just to summarize what Hugh described, basically the development of the four-hand piano duo had to do a lot with the social environment and cultural environment and the changes that, a lot of big changes that came after the classicism, right? When Mozart was at its peak. And then like you said, when he was a child, he would play a lot of four-hand duos with his sister, who apparently, and I read something about it just the other day, was just as talented as he was. And Mozart, in many of his letters to his father, praised her a lot for her abilities as a pianist, as a composer. Yeah, unfortunately, their duo didn't continue. Right.

But it also had to do with the, I think, the physical development of the piano.

Yes.

You know, back in Bach's time, the piano was simply not wide enough. It wouldn't be practical for two people.

Not to mention that, you know, women had all those garments, just like impossible to, you know, be, you know, to sit So there were physical barriers to having four-hand duets. I mean, certainly there were multi-keyboard ensembles, like two pianos, there's the three, even four harpsichords, right?

Yeah, but, you know, in Bach's time, but in terms of two people playing on one instrument, it was really due to just the physical limitations of having, you know, 60-some keys as opposed to the 88 we have now, you know, and as the piano developed, then forehand repertoire developed really as a great marketing tool for Brahms, who recognized the power of it to have people in their homes to preview his symphonies or to preview larger works.

Even Liszt, you know, arranged for forehands also, you know, Beethoven symphonies, made a lot of arrangements, and then Grieg.

And as a great way of getting the word out of such and such an opera, such and such a symphony. People could try it out at home and then they could experience the orchestra version. So the four-hand repertoire was a great marketing technique. And of course, then Liszt, people like Liszt.

Yeah. And also, you know, if you think about it, four hands playing, so two people, four hands, all of a sudden becomes more achievable, right? To transcribe, to arrange an opera or a symphony for keyboard rather than two hands, right? It's just, right, it's logistics here, right? So everything, you can fit everything more easily into 4 hands rather than in 2. So yeah, people started to prefer that.

Yeah. What, maybe you already have answered, but what is it about 4-hand piano versus 2 pianos or solo that makes it so powerful and special to you?

Well, there are, I mean, I think for each category there's, special requirements. There are limits, of course. So, you know, pros and cons. I think when it comes to four hands to one instrument, I think four hands can easily bring out the potential of the instrument. So it becomes much more powerful than in the situation of just one person playing. And then for two pianos, Rachmaninoff, started to fancy the two-piano formula, right? Because, and also, you know, you have to think about that concert venues started to become bigger and bigger. So all of a sudden, like two pianos made more sense, right? To have on stage. And sonically it was completely different level than just having one piano. So four hands.

Yeah.

I think for me personally, even though I was trained as a soloist, you know, at Curtis, um, I always had more fun playing with friends. You know, my friend— all my friends would say, hey, can you help me with this lesson? That— and I, I loved it. I love— I had— I was more comfortable being with other musicians, you know. And I, I— something like, maybe I just— it was an insecurity, who knows. But I never felt comfortable just promoting myself, so I always felt like I would rather be part of a team. And I've always enjoyed that aspect of teamwork where if I could be around people that would inspire me, people that were different from me, that could challenge me, I felt like I could become a better person rather than living a soloist's life which can be very lonely and very challenging.

Be careful what you wish for in terms of people to challenge you because sometimes it's too much!

Oi, oi, oi, por favor!

Yeah.

So, but that's, I, I think for me it has been just the, the what, the ability to bounce ideas off of her, of, of somebody else. Um, and to, I, I, I love that extra added creativity of somebody else.

Yeah.

Working together. So for me it's the just that, that unique variety of teamwork and, um, and that just the forehand rep are so interesting.

Yeah. So I think the core of it, it's the idea of chamber music, right? Collaborating with people, forming micro, this micro society, right? Micro family, right? Either 2 or 3, you know, when it comes to trios or quartets. And as opposed to solo, right? This is very different. That's why I said before that there are different rules for each category. Of course, what I've learned from playing chamber music is very very much transferable to solo playing. It helps a lot, at least, you know, I'm speaking from personal experience. It helps a lot in terms of like how I hear music, how I approach music, how can I make my two hands sound not like two hands, but more, not like this percussion instrument, but like completely like a human voice or an oboe or a clarinet. So, you know, maybe one hand is playing an oboe line.

Yeah.

Or, and the other one is playing a bass, for example, like if you think of different textures and the way to orchestrate, right? Learning from a string quartet is very helpful for pianists, for example. So that's why I'm saying like chamber music can be so, so influential on solo playing. And indeed it's more fun to play with people as difficult and challenging it can be, as it can be sometimes, right, on stage, it is that back and forth game. It's like a tennis game, right? It doesn't make sense to play tennis by yourself. You can play, actually. I learned tennis with the wall, just bouncing a ball against the wall. But then, you know, it's no fun. It's very limited.

But I see this, you know, successful duo as siblings, you know, twins.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Also, yeah, and a married couple. Yeah, so it's really fascinating, but that's how much also it takes time to put that craft, you know, craft that artistry, right? And it just doesn't happen very, very quickly to coordinate.

No, it doesn't. And the fact that, you know, you mentioned siblings, playing together or a married couple, I think is similar because you live with the person, you live with that person that you also share a professional life with. And you, I think you learn about their idiosyncrasies and you learn about their way of thinking, the way they approach life. And even if you don't consciously think about all these things, I think it's just, they get somewhere, right? They accumulate somewhere. And I think it's easier in a way when we are, for example, in front of the instrument and start practicing. We know each other or we should know each other. And I think we can solve problems a little bit. More efficiently, or at least we're trying to, right? After some time, if you really want to make things work, you have to find an efficient way to save time and energy and sometimes even the relationship, the partnership.

One of the things you were alluding to at the beginning of the podcast was how challenging it is to play four hands on one piano. And just, again, you're absolutely right. The, you know, I do a lot of work in my— I still do a lot of work with collaborative piano, which is what I've done for most of my professional career, you know, 19 years director of instrumental accompaniment at Curtis. So I played with every instrument and helped a lot of the folks in the Philadelphia Orchestra get their jobs with the auditions. But somehow working in this capacity is the most difficult ensembleship that I've ever experienced, and I think a lot of it has to do with just the nature of two people on one instrument.

Yeah, two different entities.

When you have two different pianos, and I've accompanied other pianists, for some reason that doesn't seem as difficult, but one piano, wow. I mean, just the precision of making sure we land together, that we start together. It's much more amplified when you're both sharing one instrument.

So this is exactly the reaction that our dear Professor Orches had I remember when I told him, oh, you know, we're trying to develop this forehand. Oh, I don't want to hear about it. Like this, I find this the most difficult thing. And he's been a collaborative pianist almost his whole life. I mean, he's known for this, a chamber musician, phenomenal chamber musician. But when he heard about this combination, he's like, oh no, I've only done it like a few times and that's it. Because it requires a lot of energy and time and it is difficult. Like I said, two different entities in front of the same instrument to make it sound as one, right? To combine ideas and music making and make it sound like one. It is, I think, the most difficult partnership and ensembleship, I think, when it comes to chamber music.

Well, but when I see you perform and on the video, It just looks so easy.

We're talking about what's going on backstage.

I'm sorry.

We're talking about backstage stuff.

Yeah, I know, I know. That people don't know. But final product is just so beautiful and it's so fun. Yeah. Now tell me about your arrangements. Wow, Moonlight with Schubert's Serenade, Moon River. Oh my gosh, those combinations just blew my mind. And then, yeah, and then the, the iconic like rock song Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen, you know.

We didn't do that one.

We didn't do that one. Yes, we adjusted it a little bit.

We adjusted the arrangement a little bit, but yeah, unfortunately, I mean, the others we did.

Yeah, the other, the others with the, yeah, John Williams, for example, that we are particularly proud of that one. Oh, what? Oh, the, the very famous rock song Guns N' Roses, Sweet Child of Mine, right?

Yeah, that's the, that's yours. Okay.

I think that was, that one was the first one where we tried out some crazy choreography.

That was the most—

And actually it came, it started as an experiment.

Yeah. We did it in 3 days.

We threw something together really fast. Nothing to lose.

And Billy Joel's Lullaby, is that your arrangement as well? And the— My favorite is, of course, Suiza din Dobrogea. Yes. Yeah, and that's an incredible arrangement. I really enjoyed it. So this is the compilation of folk tunes from Romania, right? Certain regions.

Yeah.

Romania. And I know you in the video, you also explain the region and also how complex Romanian culture is actually. Can you tell us about the arrangements, but also the historical background and how also you guys arranged together?

Well, in terms of historical background, you described it very well. I mean, it was, um, it was a region quite, um, conquered.

Well, this is a region specifically in the south, southeastern part of Romania. Romania is in the shape of a fish right now. Right now, right now. And what's interesting about that particular region is that this is actually where a lot of Madalina's family comes from, the southeastern part. Um, and there's— it's close proximity to Turkey, and there are Eastern and Western influences that are commingled in that region, which lends to the spiciness of this sweet.

Yeah, predominantly Eastern. Yeah, it's predominantly Turkish because that region was for 3 centuries or even more under Turkish occupation. So a lot of the architecture, music, cuisine just came right there, of course. And before, way, way back before, it was under Roman Empire, right? There's still— we remember like 2 years ago, we visited some ruins that are still there from the Roman Empire time. Still there.

Right. But what's really—

it's really fascinating. I mean, I, you know, learning history as a child just didn't strike me as fascinating as it does right now, finding out all these details that constitute my country.

So, you know, of course, meeting Madalina, and I, you know, I'm South Korean heritage. I was born in the States, but my family came from South Korea. And I had never dated a Romanian before. I mean, instantly, there was this instant mystique, everything from Her accent too. And I, you know, want to know more about this beautiful, mysterious woman and where she came from. What is this place called Romania? The only thing I had reference to was—

You had to look it up on the map, huh?

Well, not just looked it up on the map. All I knew was, you know, for her teacher would say, ah, Ceaușescu, Dracula. This is, you know, the home of Transylvania.

All these are true, of course.

Of course they're true.

It's just stereotypes.

Course there's stereotypes. But, you know, I love the fact that, you know, they, they love it. They, they, they just laugh it off.

But sorry, I have to interrupt. Um, and you saw this the other day, I was rewatching some episodes of Seinfeld, of Seinfeld show, and there is one episode where Jerry dates a Romanian gymnast. This is an allusion to Nadia Comaneci, who won the perfect 10, right, in the history of gymnastics. And then he mentions the name of Ceaușescu. What am I going to talk to her about? Ceaușescu? I love the accent, by the way.

So I think the most interesting thing, as you know, getting to know her, I was interested also in her culture, you know, and so spent a lot of time. One of the things that I remember when I was first being exposed to South Korean culture, that I instantly wanted to understand the folk music. So I got a lot of CDs at the time of the traditional instruments, things like the kayagum, which is the equivalent to the koto, the Japanese koto stringed zither instrument, or the tegum, which is the flute that has the membrane, skin membrane, gives it a soul. Those instruments really struck my heart. And so I wanted to do the same kind of deep dive for Romanian music. So I just spent all— searched online. Apple Music is fantastic, by the way, just to look up as many authentic ethnic Romanian albums as I could find. And it just became this beautiful journey of the folk music, of the different dance styles and hearing different regions and how they all differed. And then suddenly I found two recordings of the same suite. One was recorded, I think, in the 1970s or so. Oops, hello.

It's getting tangled.

Tangled in here. One, the first recording's in the 1970s, and I think the more recent one was done either the '90s or early 2000s. And what was interesting was that it was thematically the same dances, but in a different order and improvised slightly different, you know? So, and different, just they, I recognized the piece like, well, that's a completely different way of playing such and such a piece. And I shared this with Madalena. She got excited, and then we started. I think the first step was just the base transcription, just listening. And since there were two different sources, just trying to decide which one we liked of each of them, because there was no printed sheet music of this. So it was really just simply laying down the raw transcription, and then from that raw transcription, um, we would— so the way I like to work is I like to work in kind of a three-staff system. I do the raw transcription in the middle, and then I add a staff above, a staff below for her part, my part, or whoever's going to do the primo, right? And then deciding which elements are more predominantly going to go to the primo, which elements are going to go predominantly to the secondo, and then finding fun ways to mix them, you know, to say, okay, well, this is boring, let's— and then she would come in and say, well, let's— I want to improvise this, this sounds boring, let's do that. So it was a very— maybe I would lay the framework and then she would come and lay all the Romanian sauce on top of it.

Yeah, I do. You know, when I do my arrangements and I've done some solo arrangements, I just, I don't know, my way of working is very different. First of all, I have to be at the piano because I want to try out things and I don't work like beginning till end based on whatever reason. I just, maybe I start in the middle or I start with the ending and I just sketch. First of all, I sketch something that sounds at the moment the most important. And then basically I fill out the rest. So we have different techniques of arrangement, arranging things.

But it went through several, I mean, once the framework was out, it really took a lot of playthroughs, experimentations.

Yeah.

Oh, she, and then she has a very improvisational, and that's the nature of Romanian music. It's very improvisatory. So getting her feedback in terms of we really should do this or that. And, you know, maybe she changed her mind, but we would annotate as much of that as possible too. It's just a fun, fun process.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, speaking of improvisation, there are two types of people, right? Some write their improvisations down before every concert, even if they do something different each concert, they write it down. And others just, well, I'll see what I feel inspired to do on the spot. You know, so, yeah, but I mean, I like to come up with different things each time that we play this piece, and we've been playing this a lot, and I think it has been featured in every single concert that we—

Recently.

Yeah, recently that we've had. And last year we played it in Romania for the first time, and we're going to play it again in September. Coming back there.

How was the reception?

Oh, it was very well received. First of all, no one seemed to know that particular suite. So I don't think anyone had ever heard that because there's no score for it. This is a very important thing. There's no score for it. I think any folk music has been preserved without any sheet music, right? Just the oral tradition. Yes.

And I think what's interesting too is that, um, the, the Romanian classical community, they have a very strong contemporary component, very, very strong contemporary composers. But I, I'm— there seems to be a disconnect. And there's a very active folk music community. I mean, people, they, they play weddings, they play, you know, parties, community gigs, you know, all the time. There's this there's not much overlap, which I found very opportunistic, you know, because, you know, again, one key thing about being a surviving musician in any age is finding what makes you unique, right? And I'm always trying to think of how can we find interesting gaps to fill. And I thought, you know, Romanian folk music in the classical sphere, I think, is a wonderful thing. The music is so good and not many people know it. So it's just a wonderful opportunity just to share that with the rest of the world and connect two different worlds together.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, which you're doing an amazing job. I really enjoy the video. Speaking of video, you know, you're venturing into the virtual world where, you know, the podcast and vlog and, you know, all the videos that you make, especially the one that I enjoyed watching was the sort of like a tutorial where you show us the squeegee thing that you used for, what is it?

The winter morning? The winter breeze.

Yeah. Oh, that was a, but you know, I really needed to see the video. It's, it's, I never knew where you were using the squeegee. I thought you were just using the hands and then obviously there was a reason. Yeah.

Well, I have to say, I mean, it was not our idea. It was Professor Orkus' idea.

Um, and, but it's also, you know, we do a lot of our shoots. So I'm actually vice president at Cunningham Piano, which is one of the oldest piano stores in America. It's been around since 1891. And we have the tremendous privilege of being able to walk into the store after hours to shoot on Bösendorfer pianos, Yamaha pianos. I mean, the top-end Yamahas, you know, rebuilt Steinways and Petroff pianos. We, I, we get our pick of the best pianos, you know, around in great condition, brand new.. But one key thing is, you know, I tell this to our customers, don't touch the strings because the oils in the palm of your hand can cause the strings to rust, which is why when she wanted to record this, I said, we can't touch the strings. We've got to find another way.

Hence, Professor Ortega came up with the idea. Well, you know, because he had played a lot of contemporary music, like a lot. And he knows, I think, every trick that's in the book for certain situations when you're not allowed, because in a lot of venues, presenters might be a little bit reluctant when you touch their pianos inside strings or put different foreign objects between the strings for certain effects. Yes, it sounds cool, but at the same time, it might damage the instrument. So he had this very good idea to use rubber, squeegees.

Yeah, it works. And then, but also you are explaining in such a way that it's so engaging. It's like, aha, you know, for those who especially are not familiar with classical music or even contemporary, you know, music, and how does that even sound? Does that sound coming from piano? But there's an explanation to how you do it. And also you talk about air turn. So we're going to talk more about the air turn. And then I actually have it In my hands. Ta-da!

I'm so proud of you. Oh, thank you. Bravo, bravo. Wonderful.

Yeah, we're going to talk more in details more. But you talk about how to use this air turn for two people. I never knew that. I thought it was an individual thing, and you showed us how to do it. So the video is really inviting. And even for those who do not know how to play the piano, people really want to see that, you know? How do these pianists do? Do you do all the music production, audio to visuals? I mean, I can see you are tech savvy, one of you, right? And then, so do you guys do all the production, like video, audio, and editing?

Yeah, starting with outfits and hairstylist and makeup and everything. She's putting makeup on us.

She insists on putting makeup on me.

Yeah.

Which I can't stand, but, ugh.

But you know, it looks good. And you know, recently we've done this short, this reel on our favorite video game music, Baldur's Gate 3. And yeah, we had to really go the extra mile there with costumes and makeup just to look as realistic as possible with certain characters. So that's a lot of fun.

Yeah, and then for me it's really kind of everything else. So yeah, I—

Yeah, everything else, yeah.

You know, I've been interested in making videos Oh gosh, my YouTube channel is 19 years old and YouTube just turned 20. So I guess gives you an idea how long I've been experimenting with videos. And that's just for fun. Again, just for fun. I just— it's— it was a hobby. I, I loved experimenting with editing software. And over time you start to pick up this piece of equipment, that piece of equipment, and, um, you know, nothing, nothing terribly expensive, but just, you know, I— you start to— and also the fact that I recorded so many albums, you know, with other musicians, so I have a lot of experience being in studios, being in production, and seeing the equipment that those people use, how they use it. And I— we go to the recording session, I'd be more excited to meet the engineer than actually record the music, you know. So I love learning about recording techniques, you know, how do they edit, you know, how do they keep track of all the takes and everything like that. So Um, the challenge though has always been— I, I've never— up until recently, I've only been in situations where we had a very limited window of time to set up the equipment, record the music, and tear everything down and get out of there, right? So, um, I have— you have to think about, um, planning out, and sometimes the space is very limited because especially if you were shooting in a piano store, it's crowded. There's lots of pianos there. It's not like a stage. You know, so it's very challenging to find the right angle, set up the lights correctly so you don't have shadows in the wrong place. But, you know, the beautiful thing about making videos is that every video you make, you learn something new. And that's definitely been the case every single time. I think, you know, maybe next time I'll do it this way. Maybe I learned a lesson that this didn't work, you know. And so that's been a fascinating thing to learn. And then Microphone-wise, I have the great fortune of again working with some other musicians. I worked with, um, one of the, one of the country's best piano tuners and technicians, and he, he happened to do also audio recording on the side just as a hobby. And he saw my equipment, he said, you know, can I make some recommendations on some other gear to get? And he made a recommendation on some microphones. And I said, I wish you didn't tell me that because now I'm gonna have to buy them. They're very expensive and there was only one set left. They're not in production anymore, but they happen to be just like the perfect piano microphones. And I've been using them now for a couple of years, and I think our production— it's just, it's just been really fascinating just to dive into bootstrap ways to make a video, to make it as, you know, look as nice as possible, make it sound as nice, and just having that creativity. In fact, tonight after we do our podcast interview with you, we have a video shoot. She wants to shoot 2 more pieces. And so it's nice to be able to think anytime we have a come up, have a musical idea, oh, let's go make a video.

Not only just musical idea, but, you know, something that a product that you've been working on and you want to share it. Yeah, right. And I'm actually more excited about the outfits, to be honest. Because again, it's part of the show, right?

Yeah.

It has to be.

Do we get to see the video later sometime?

Oh, of course.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We, you know, so yeah. It's always a combination of things that we do together or, you know, I'll shoot her solo things. She still does a lot of solo stuff.

Yeah.

So yeah, whatever production, crazy production. But, you know, I don't know if we want to talk a little bit later on. We just finished a production with a young composer, Christian Meckham, and this was the— for me, this was my dream video project, believe it or not, because as I mentioned, we never have enough time, it's always a rush, I'm limited with the cameras I can use, and for the first time we had a young composer approach Madeline about a piece that he wrote in memory of George Rockburg, Crum. George Crumb. Excuse me, George Crumb.

Very, very—

yeah, yeah, very big. George Crumb, who Madalina actually specializes in. Her, her doctoral work has been on George Crumb's Macrocosmos series. She did Book 1 last year, and this year she'll be doing Book 2. And somehow through the grapevine, this young man was reaching out to the music community, and they all pointed to her. And so he approached her to record this set of 3 pieces. It's called Three Omens, 3 little movements called The Rabbit, The Storm, Silence, and The Face. And, um, so he approached her with the idea of making a video project. He wanted us to work together because he liked the videos that we made. So he wanted her to be the pianist, he wanted me to be the videographer. And initially he was going to have his, his girlfriend create animations. So it's going to be a hybrid live video and animations mixed together to tell this visual story of the music.

It was a lot of brainstorming at the beginning. I remember we, we met for drinks, meals a couple times, and we just started throwing out ideas and see what, what sticks.

And eventually it turned out that, you know, just making the animations was just too time-consuming, was never going to get done. So, but the nice thing was that he gave me a blank slate in terms of however I wanted to shoot the video. And so my idea was, okay, let's get the audio done first. So we recorded the audio, you know, at Cunningham on, uh, Cunningham Piano on a beautiful 9-foot, uh, Bösendorfer 280 VC.

Imperial?

Not an Imperial. This is a 280 VC. Imperial's a different piano. But, uh, we recorded on that piano. So we got the audio down. And that was the backbone. And then I was able to use what we call pre-visualization software. So if you've ever seen documentaries on how they make Star Wars or how they make the latest Marvel movie, you'll see many times that they'll have these storyboards, you know, little— looks like cartoon strips where they draw in what the scene should look like and who— what they're saying at the moment. I did a similar thing using 3D software where I could have a a virtual model of her, virtual model of the piano, virtual model of the stage, place them wherever I want, set the lights virtually where I want, cameras. For the first time, like, I can use my best camera and I can have any angle I want, any lighting that I want, and shoot it just the way I wanted to, kind of measure for measure. And, you know, the music became a script, and I would lay out the cuts according to what the music was was telling me it would be, the changes, lay out the storyboard, sent the storyboard animated to the composer, you know, he approved, and then we shot it over 2 days, which is unheard of, you know, just to be able to have 2 whole days to get the visuals out. That was great.

He was also, he was also a big help for getting a stage to allow us to, to unfold like this. We shot that Millersville University. There was no one there. We basically had the, the stage for us for 8 hours for 2 days.

But, you know, being able to treat the recording very much like a movie set, it was very much a movie production, you know, with the way— and I loved it. I mean, for me, and I'm very grateful for Christian to giving us the opportunity. She played, of course, she played brilliantly. This absolutely brilliant performance. And then of course, she came up with different visual elements and ideas. The mask at the last one was her idea, which I thought was just genius. And just, you know, the collaborative process, and it really felt like we were making quite literally a movie with just music and a piano and lights. That's all.

I just, yes, that was a great idea with the mask, but the idea came from George Crumb's "Vox Palaeinae," of course, that the piece, the very famous piece that premiered in the '70s, uh, for 3 players, um, that, uh, requires for all of them to wear masks to depersonalize them. So, so George Crumb really inspired, really inspired the production, not just the music.

It seems like you guys both share, although coming from very two different worlds almost, but then they share so many things. One of them is the creativity. So, you know, before we— I want to focus on your individual work and so on, but I kind of want to know how did this duo come to life, as in did the playing together come first or the life together came first?

I think they, they went hand in hand, really. They went hand in hand. I never felt a separation. Um, no, I mean, it's kind of obvious when two musicians, even if they are dating or they're already together, and it doesn't matter if they're two pianists or different instrumentalists, I, it seems natural to start playing together at some point. Unless they really hate each other in terms of, you know, what they do professionally. Um, well, that would be really weird. Um, but we, we, we are not there. Um, I think it just, um, started as, well, let's play together. Let's just play together. Let's, we, we went, uh, one evening to Cunningham and let's just sight read through some stuff.

Well, there was— I, I remember I was— I received an invitation from a good friend of mine to come out to play a concert in Paris, and this is very shortly after meeting Madalina. I thought, well, rather than me going out, it's like, hey, hey, together.

Yeah, but that, that, that was not, um, that was not why it started.

No, no, it wasn't. But, but it gave us a good reason to give our first—

and it was not even— it was not even the goal of, oh, let's start a four-hand piano duo. It was not even that. Um, at least that's, that's how I perceived it. Yeah. I don't know.

Did I hear, did I hear, um, Dr. Buchner, uh, Sarah Davis Buchner have anything to do with your duo or— Yes. Because last year around, last year around this time I was interviewing her for—

Yes, I saw your—

Yeah.

That's who she is. She's wonderful.

So she's the GOAT.

She's unique. She's unique. She's unique. And I, you know, speaking of creativity, I don't think I've ever met such a creative person like she is. You know, I've been her student. I've been around her, I think, more than 6 years. Yeah, more than 6 years. And the influence that she's had on me as a person as a musician, it's just, I can talk for hours, really. I can talk for hours. And she's really one of the human beings that actively has been influencing my life. And, you know, I think yours too.

Yeah. So the story is Sarah Davis Buchner and I have been friends for many years, ever since she came to Philadelphia. We connected really through her needing a piano. And then we we were Yamaha piano dealers. We are piano dealers. And connecting with her initially there, and we just, we just hit it off. We became very, very close friends. And during the pandemic, I helped her a lot with helping her set up streams for her concerts, uh, and a couple other things. So everything— and if you remember that time, we were all streaming from home, so I set up cameras and microphones and helped her with a couple of productions. And then she was putting together a one-woman show in New York called On Pigs and Piano.

Oh yeah, that's right, that's right.

I thought it was of— whatever. On Pigs and Pianos. And, um, she wanted me to be the videographer, just to record a version of the show that she could shop around to presenters. So I came with all my equipment, and that was really just— I was— she basically hired me to be there for a week to do shooting and, you know, capture everything. And at the end of that week, um, this woman came to one of the after-show—

I was there for all the shows—

while I was busy editing. And then finally came out for the last show and met her, and that's how we met. So yeah.

Hi friends of The Piano Pod, I want to invite you to something very special. On Saturday, October 4th at 1 PM, we are stepping out of the studio and onto the stage for our very first Piano Pod with Yukimi Song in Concert at Stiefel Hall, presented in partnership with Mannes Prep at The New School, a pre-college music program offering comprehensive and nurturing pre-professional training. This won't be just another concert. It's a 1-hour, one-of-a-kind experience featuring 4 of our past guests, pianists who are reshaping the classical music world. Dr. Ji-Hoon Kerska, building opportunities for children through Keys to Success. Elena Bindman, opening doors to Johann Sebastian Bach's music with her bold and innovative transcriptions. Dr. Nana Ogboh, celebrating Black composers and honoring cultural legacy through Juneteenth LP. Donna Wang Friedman, award-winning pianist, producer, and filmmaker, creating projects that amplify immigrant and underrepresented voices. Each of these female trailblazers will perform then sit down with me for an intimate conversation before coming together for our panel that ties it all back to our theme— creativity connection and community. The Piano Pod has always been about bridging the gap between classical music and today's audiences. This event brings that mission to life! You won't just hear extraordinary performances; you will leave inspired by the stories and the vision behind the music. The concert is open to public, and it marks a huge milestone for us. Don't miss the chance to be part of this moment. Please visit thepianopod.com/live-events to reserve your seat and, if you are able, support this project so we can continue creating experiences like this together. Join us for an unforgettable afternoon of music, storytelling, and connection. So let's focus on, you know, the individual work. So I want to start with Madalina. You mentioned that, uh, the work of George Crumb's, uh, Macrocosmos, and I watched— I think, yeah, I— you, you have a YouTube video out there, right? Yeah, I watched. Are you still working on your DMA from Temple University?

Yes. Yes.

Is this part of your research?

Yes, it's supposed to be. So I'm entering my last year and it's wonderful because I discovered the music of George Crumb through Professor Orches, who known George Crumb intimately. He premiered Little Suite for Christmas They were very good friends. And in one of the modern music classes with Professor Orches, I first heard his music. I was not familiar with it. And I remember even now, I remember the shock that I felt. I was very intrigued because I felt that that music really spoke to me. And I think this is a very important key element when it comes to not just contemporary music, but any kind of music from any era. You know, if you, if, if, if people feel that the certain music speaks to them, they should trust that they should trust that, that instinct. And, you know, not to mention for, for players, if they really feel that, oh, I have this urge, this impulse to play certain composer, they should really follow that. So this happens with George Crumb, and looking around, I realized that there were not so many people, I would say no one, that were interested in his music. And I just decided to give it a shot and started exploring it. And I'm grateful and lucky that I have Professor Orkus as a mentor, you know, to show me all the tricks, right, in the book because he had played a lot of George Crumb and had talks with him. And we have also recently reached out to other friends of George Crumb who had known him as a composer and as a friend. And it's like, for example, Jennifer Higdon. She was one of his studio students at UPenn, interviewed as Professor Orchis. We tried to reach out to Robert Shannon. That's still pending. Another piano, favorite pianist of George Crumb. Who else did we— Mark Antonio Barone. Yes, we interviewed him as well. Also another promoter of Crumb's music. Yeah, so, you know, getting this direct information from people that had worked with the composer, it's also very useful in my own understanding of the music, right? Besides of my, let's say, you know, subjective manner, you know, what do I get from this music? I get all that knowledge, right? From the outside that contributes to the general outcome. And yeah, so far it's been a wonderful journey exploring that and it's still not done. I'm working on the second Macrokosmos book. And I've learned a lot about contemporary music technique in terms of, you know, what kind of sound effects can be obtained from the piano. How should I obtain that without damaging the instrument? Since we were talking about that earlier with the squeegees, all this, all these elements for extended keyboard techniques I think every pianist should know about. I think it's a very important slice of piano repertoire. Yeah. So I feel very fortunate to play this music. And, you know, when I've played it, I also played it in Romania last year as well. People love it because they understand it, you know, and I think it has to do with the fact that I love it and I understand it. And then, you know, I share, here's what I think about it. What do you, what do you think? And so far the feedback has been positive.

It's an incredible conceptual art. Yeah.

And it's very creative, you know, I mean, George Crumb was a complex human being, complex, although at first glance, you wouldn't say that. I mean, if you hear him talking, there are lots, lots of interviews of him on YouTube. But he had this diverse, colorful, even dark, I would say to a certain extent, universe inside of him, inside of his head. You know, I remember Jennifer Higdon, when I interviewed him, she was so baffled, you know, because knowing him, she said, well, he was very quiet. He wouldn't talk much. He wouldn't talk much. But then if you hear his music, where are all those powerful, violent sounds coming from? Because he's not like that. So there's a big difference between George Crumb as a person, George Crumb, the person, the human being, very gentle, very gently spoken. You know, I said that the tone of voice, very mellow. And George Crumb, the musician, George Crumb, the creator. I would say. He's a creator in the real sense of the word.

Now, you grew up in Romania, so your training, earlier training was in Romania. So, did you discover this sort of experimental avant-garde style of playing when you came to the United States or?

No, no, no, no, no. I had experimented with a lot of contemporary music. Before coming to the States in 2019, I had, if I may say so, I had been at that time for many years, I had been one of the primary pianists in Bucharest, which is the capital where I lived for 10 years. So one of the primary pianists that actively was actively involved in playing contemporary music. And I just, I like to do that, first of all. Also, from a pragmatic point of view, it was work that I could get, you know? And also because I like the idea of working directly with the composer, you know, how I wish to just pick up the phone and call Mozart or call Brahms or call, you know, Defaya, since we're playing that, and ask them, hey, what did you mean by this? What was in your head when you wrote this down or something like that, but we can't. So the idea of working with living composers, it's very appealing. You know, when I read about Brahms composing his violin concerto for Joachim, basically Joachim laid down the violinistic part, right? Right. It's an incredible bond between composer and performer, right? So yeah, I've always wanted to go through that. And it's wonderful when I come across composers that feel to trust the performer, they feel to trust me and they allow me, like Christian, for example, right? Christian Mekum with Three Almonds. He, remember he was not so pretentious in terms of, so I'm picky, not pretentious, but picky. In terms of, you know, how to do certain things. He trusted me and yeah, it worked out. He— I think it paid back quite nicely. And I'm honored when composers do that, when composers trust the performer, you know? Yeah. And also, I think it also has to go the other way around. The performer has to trust the composer.

So you've been in the United States not too long. It's been like 6 years. Yeah.

A little bit over 6 years.

Yeah. Yeah. How do you like it here? I know there's a lot going on right now, but—

Please talk with me.

There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. But I found a very refreshing— so if I had to summarize the whole thing in a phrase, I found a very refreshing point of view in approaching music through the people that I have worked with and through the people that I have encountered and have guided me. And I, we mentioned already two of them, Professor Lambert Orches, Sarah Davis Buchner. I can mention, for example, Dr. Joyce Lindorf in period instruments and harpsichord. I've done a lot, a lot of work on harpsichord and period instruments, and that helped shape— that actually has shaped a lot my perspective on, for example, music from classicism, like music of Mozart or of Beethoven, because of the exposure to period instruments and to reading materials and to audio materials and to other people that are considered specialists, like, for example, Robert Levin. He's a giant in fortepiano, for example. And I had the privilege to work with him for a little bit in a masterclass. It was powerful. I will remember that masterclass for the rest of my life. And just recently, speaking of masterclasses, we just 2 weeks ago, I think we were in Delaware. We were invited to teach a masterclass at the music school in Delaware. As part of their summer piano program. And we only had, I would say, about 20 minutes for each group, right? So it was a masterclass, right? But I was hoping, now I can confess, you know, before it started, I was hoping that at least for one group, at least for one people, we could make a difference, you know, because I think that's what masterclass classes do. They should make a difference. They should be influential.

Yeah.

So yeah, there's a, there's a lot going on. And, um, that's exactly why I came here. I came here to get a new life. And that's, that's how short I can summarize it, to get a new life, to get a new perspective. Um, and yeah, I think overall to be more creative. To learn to be more creative with my life. And by that, I mean to experiment, to be playful, to know what I want, to know what I want to add in my life and to what to hold on to, what to let go. I think that's what being creative, since we've mentioned this word so many times already, I think that's what it means, at least for That's actually one of the words for this season, creativity and connection.

So yeah, well, thank you, Madalina. It's such a joy to hear your story and how you get here and so on. So Hugh, now your turn. So your path has taken also many turns and from Curtis and collaborated with Hilary Hahn and so on to— and inventing AirTurn, the famous you know, pedal. This, you know, for those who are listening, piano pedal comes in the regular, you know, 3 pedals down at the bottom of the piano. Each one has a different function. And then now this is like the 21st century version of pedal, which we use this for PageTurn, right? So, and you are part of the co-inventor Right. Yeah. So how does this, um, entrepreneurial, innovative curiosity come from?

Well, I think a lot of it came from growing up watching shows like Star Trek. You know, it was my first love. I loved this vision of the world where technology was pervasive and solved so many interesting problems and was able to transport your imagination to different worlds. And I love that, I love that aspect, you know. And I've always been drawn to, you know, fantasy elements, you know, whether in books, you know, reading through The Lord of the Rings before the movies came out, you know, or any of those kinds of things. Just wonderful exercises in imagination. Um, and One of the curious things I can look back in— I think at first I was ashamed of it, but now I'm actually glad I had this— was this innate curiosity, you know, about how things work. I remember coming to Curtis very young. I was 13 when I started there and attended a couple of the recitals, and I was just baffled You know, I would sit there— I mentioned this at the beginning of the episode— like, I don't know what's going on. I would ask my friends, what do you hear when you hear music? And they had a hard time explaining. And then here's a great example. So when I came to Curtis, I was, uh, I came in with Eleanor Sokolov. She was my main teacher. But then George Boulet, who was teaching at the time, one of his students was not coming back. So he actually approached— he was the head of the piano department at the time— so he went to Eleanor Sokolov and said, I'd like to audition your students. I I'd like to take one of your students to add to my class. She wasn't happy about it, but she didn't have a choice. So all of the Sokoloff students played for him. I remember playing for him. And anyway, long story short, I became his student, but she wouldn't let me go so soon. So I had less— 2 lessons with her and 1 lesson with him every week my first year. Well, one of my first lessons, I brought a piece in, and then Mr. Bollett kind of like, who told you to do this or that. So, oh, Mr. Sokolow, no, no, no, don't do that, do this. He would change a couple of details. So I changed the details. Well, I went back to Mrs. Sokolow with the same piece, and she yelled at me, who told you to do this? Mr. Bollett, don't do that! And that, of course, became the very first conundrum. Who's right? They're both my teachers, and they're taking the same piece of music and saying completely opposite things. Who is right? You know? And that question really perplexed me. And I was probably a very annoying Curtis student because I kept asking that question. Well, why? Why are you doing it this way? Why are you changing your mind there? Well, so-and-so does it this way. Why are you doing it that way? And the puzzling thing was that many people couldn't answer that question. They would just say, just do it. It's just follow your heart. Just follow your heart.

What?

Why?

How?

Yeah. So for me, the— I think the entrepreneurial question came from seeing that there was an assumption that as a classical musician, you just know. You're just supposed to know everything. I didn't know everything, and I wanted to know everything, but nobody was giving me answers, you know. So I think a lot of that came from just being honest with my ignorance. You know, I don't know and I want to know. And eventually, I'm not ashamed of owning up to, "I don't know. I want to learn." Yeah. And so, that came from that, I think from that mindset. And that also helped me to see— well, I'll tell another story. The entrepreneurship, I think, came more out of seeing, number one, this breakdown in communication. Right, between artists and audiences, right? Yes, I hear— I heard all throughout my upbringing, music is the universal language. Well, if it's a universal language, we have a syntax problem because most of the people just don't understand what we do, you know. Again, pragmatically speaking, you know, I— and I experienced that. I would go to a concert, I'd be bored out of my mind, and somebody, somebody would play something suddenly and my heart would race and I didn't know why. And I wanted to really try to be better at explaining that phenomenon, first to myself, but then more importantly to other audiences. How can I make the music that I love so much, now that I understand it better, how can I pass that understanding to other people and get them to fall in love with this, this incredible art that hasn't— that is able to truly connect. But we just need to do, I think, a better job of conveying that connection a little bit more clearly. And the other parts of the entrepreneurship really came from practical things like being at Curtis. After I graduated, they asked me to come on faculty, and then in addition to becoming the director of instrumental accompaniment, I suddenly became the director of student recitals. When the person in that position died. Well, that's a full-time job. And this is back in the days when we were using electric typewriters to type out programs and make notes. And it was just horrifying, you know. And I thought, there's no way I can do this and still play with all the students. Luckily, at that time, computers were a new thing. I'm really dating myself here. So I was the first one to use a computer at Curtis because I just brought my own home computer there. Right? First I used— and then I thought, if I could figure out a way for the computer to automate the process of making programs, that would be great. So I, I can't— I tortured myself, but I learned how to make what's called a relational database. A relational database simply being where instead of me typing Beethoven's name and then typing his year, birth and death year, you know, dozens of times, or typing out and individually typing those pieces. These tables could refer to each other. One table would be Beethoven's table, the other table would be his repertoire table, the other table would be connected to a student name, instrument name, and all those tables would come together. And then I could— I found a way of creating programs instantly, and we I can go— I have— I can go into that for hours and hours. That was a transformational moment for me. Suddenly I saw the power of computers, how that could change the operation of, of, of an entire program. Went from do it being— this being a full-time job to something I could do in 3 minutes. Yeah, instead of spending 2 weeks writing a report, instantly just spit out a 300-page report. When I saw this, I realized, wow, now what if— now this is back way before we had anything called a tablet, right? We all had laptops, you know, but I was dreaming, wouldn't it be amazing if— because I was, you know, carrying lots of music in my bag and thinking, oh my goodness, I was forgetting music in my office, forgetting music at home. I can't tell you how many trips. One time I flew out to I was the pianist with Aaron Rossanne at one point for many, many years. And one time we flew out to St. Louis, opened up the bag, and it was missing music. There's no music store. There was no internet to download the music at the time. It was just paper music. And the smoke that came out of his ears and just the shame I felt of not having my music with me. My dream was, wouldn't it be amazing? This sounds like a crazy dream. Wouldn't it be amazing if I could have every piece I play in one device and just carry everything with me. That was my real dream, you know. And then when Microsoft came up with the tablet PC in 2001, this first time that a computer could show a full page of music vertically instead of just the half screen we see on a laptop, that was my aha moment. That was it. I bought one, lots of money at the time, put— may scan some music use the pen to draw notes. And it was like, this is it, my dream has come true.

But this was before iPad.

Oh, way before. Yeah, the iPad came out 2010. So now I'm thinking like, but how do I turn the pages? Because I can now only see one page at a time. Hmm, that's where the idea came for creating a pedal, a pedal system. I, I jury-rigged so many different pedal systems and And everybody at school laughed at me. They were like, who is this crazy guy walking on stage with these machines and cables and pedal contraptions and playing music? It just looked more like a science experiment than a classical musician. But you know, that led to somebody coming, sitting in the audience one day, seeing my crazy invention, running up to me afterwards and saying, we've been looking for you for 5 years. We finally found you. She flew me out to Colorado to meet my business partner Lester Karplus, and he said, we've been looking for you, let's make this, let's start a company. Just like that. It was crazy, you know. But, um, again, I think a lot of it was just this hunger to know, hunger to answer questions, and, and a hunger to think outside the box. The other thing I was always been very concerned about is, again, coming at it from an administrative point of view and seeing how, how dependent on the economy a lot of these nonprofits were. If the donors aren't there, that operation lights out, you know. And everything from the Philadelphia Orchestra to Curtis Institute of Music to any other institution, they're very fragile, you know, tenants, you know, holding on to whatever the economic situation of any given environment is, you know. And thinking, there's got to be a better way to— there's got to be a better economic model for all of this, you know. So for me, the entrepreneurship is really a quest to find a better business model, you know, for being a musician, for organizations, for presenting concerts, for connecting people and music and musicians. So it's just an ongoing experiment with everything involved with, uh, making what we do sustainable. And so, it's been an exciting journey.

Well, I personally want to thank you for creating this wonderful tool. And then, very welcome. Yeah, yeah.

I made it for myself.

But this is like my second one because the first one, living in New York, you just to and fro, you lose things. And one of them was obviously I lost this. So, then, I I had to just quickly buy something cheaper just in the meantime, and I tried that. So compared to AirTurn, this cheaper version was obviously terrible. You know what happens is like once you tap once and then just you go 10 pages ahead, you know, like that. But this one has this own, like, I don't know, the perfect resistance and super intuitive. And you told me in the video that, you know, by doing the Four Hand Duet, so you have two different tablets, but with this one, can you tell us?

Yeah, so that's what's really unique. And actually, this is something I discovered as the need was there, but apparently several app developers have built this in. The app that we use for our music reading is called FourScore, but there, I know there, the Music is another one, N-E-W-Z-I-K, French developers. They also have this capability where one iPad can be the master and it can actually connect locally directly to other iPads and change all their pages. So it's designed really for orchestras and ensembles and things like that. But we use Fourscore. It's an option called CUE, C-U-E, where one iPad can be the master and the other iPad's the slave. You can determine whether you open music together or just turn pages, and that's what I have it set to. So I'm the page turner and her iPad works with mine, and it's great because that way we— even with scores where we have both parts on one page, she can have her markings on her version, I can have markings, my markings on my version. So our scores are really our own scores and we can optimize that and we don't have to worry about page turns.

You know, speaking of page turns, in Delaware, 2 weeks ago when we taught the masterclass for The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, a lot of the time we spent on teaching the kids how to page turn. And none of them had any iPads. None of them, I don't think they had ever heard of AirTurn. But we got back to the old-fashioned way and we I think for every single duo, we emphasize that over and over, the fact that it's so page-turning, deciding who turns when is as important as playing the notes. Because if you can't do that, then really you can't play. I mean, right? And to me, it was a joy to teach that to them because I was taught to turn my own pages. And I know that he doesn't like that, but I do not use AirTurn. I have used it a couple of times and it was not a success. It always, it failed. Something happened on stage and I decided that I should trust my skills to practice the real thing.

Funny thing is, you know, she's younger. You know, and she's more old-fashioned than I am. I'm the guy that wants to get all the tech toys.

In some ways, yes. In some other ways, no. But it's funny to observe that. But it was, you know, I think it was quite interesting to go back to the initial, to the primitive, because this is where things started. You have to know where things started. You have to know history, right? You have to know the past. So it was quite extraordinary. I mean, at the end of the program, at the final concert, they all did a great job, you know, just turning pages flawlessly, I would say. And it just reminded me of the days when I was learning how to turn pages in such a way that it didn't disturb music. And it's a skill to be practiced. And yes, I agree that AirTurn saved a lot of time. And effort. But I'm just saying there are still people that prefer the paper.

The paper. Yes.

And yeah.

Yeah.

I remember, I remember a student.

Those days.

Long time ago, you know, young student come to my office and I had invented the AirTurn. She's like, but I love the smell of paper.

Exactly.

Oh, that's a good— Yes.

And I'm like, clearly there's a difference between where my brain is, where everybody else's Because it is great.

I mean, when you get a new book, right? I mean, this is what I do, and I'm not ashamed of it. I smell the book. It's great. The smell of new book, of paper.

So I think what's really interesting is finding ways of connecting the old and finding new ways of presenting that. And that's an interesting tension between us. But it keeps me on my toes. Yeah.

That's good. You guys are so cute. So now, This may be too personal. If that's the case, just let me know. But because, you know, I ask every guest to fill out the form, guest form, so that I can create meaningful topics of conversation.

And your questions are amazing. Oh my goodness.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, dear. But one of the things that you mentioned in the form that you both came from experiences where you lost everything and had to discover how to build a new life completely from scratch, a life where you had to develop courageous creativity. So that really stuck with me, and somehow I'm able to connect with you in very complicated ways. But, you know, this is not my story. So if possible, if you can share even just a little bit of what that means.

Sure. You want to go first?

Yeah. Um, I mean, when I first came to the States, I, all I had, literally all I had were two luggages and $500. That's all I had. Um, and I had to carefully select the things that I had in my luggage in terms of clothing and, you know, stuff, because I couldn't afford buying. And it was basically starting from scratch, literally. I knew no one here. I was 29 years old. So at that, at my age, I had former classmates that had married, even had kids, or were already with a job. Oh, and one year before, one year before The final move, I was a freelancer. I had never tried that. I had never been in the position of being a freelancer in terms of, you know, living off concerts, living off gigs. And that taught me a lot about keeping cool, about not freaking out, and about making connections. And this ability to make connections extended when I came here. And I learned even more about that. But I remember the feeling of insecurity that was there every day, you know, because wanting to make this big move made me give up the security of finding a job, the security of of settling, I guess. Like, for example, I started my DMA in Bucharest, but then I just decided I don't want to do that. I don't want to do this. And I realized that it was not me who started it. It was not me who was convinced to do that. It was someone, it was people around me. It was my teachers. That wanted me to go into DMA there. But that, that was not me. It was not what I wanted to do. And then luckily, opportunity presented itself and I met the right person to determine me to make this big move and bold move. And except my mom, there was no one to leave behind. It was just her. If I, you know, if I had to think of someone to leave behind, and that was just her. So, um, it was hard because coming to a new place where you don't know anyone, you don't have any friends, um, you are on an extremely tight budget and you don't even know how economy works. You don't know anything about dollars. I mean, I was like, what, what bill is this? I couldn't even, uh, figure out the, the coins, like what coin is 10, what coin is like, and I'm still having a hard time sometimes. But yeah, it was challenging. It helped me understand better how the world works and how I work and how can I adjust myself into this new environment. It taught me a lot about myself, what I can do, what my strengths, my weaknesses, not to mention that pandemic hit. 3, no, 4 or 5 months after my arrival, this pandemic hit. So I was trapped in my dorm room. And, you know, classes went on Zoom, of course. I had a very old laptop that didn't work whatsoever. So the one that I brought with me from Romania, it was 5 or 6-year-old, not even updated. I couldn't have Zoom on it. And so I borrowed a laptop an Air Mac, sorry, Mac Air from Temple, which offered that. So, you know, in a way, I could see that conditions to learn, conditions that Temple University provided were way better than what I had, for example, in Romania. Like, no one prepared me for this, right? So, and then I started looking around for churches, Romanian churches. And I found a church on Brown Street, I think 20 minutes or so away from Temple. And I started going there because I felt the need for Romanian community. I still wanted to, you know, be able to speak face to face with people, to speak my own native language with people. Yes. So that was helpful. That was helpful. But I remember the first probably 3 months or so were very, very difficult. I remember at some point after a month, um, we, we just finished, we had just finished, um, studio class night. Dr. Dr. Bugner, um, has even in now she, uh, she gathers all her students one once a week, uh, and we play in front of each other. And not to mention that the pace of learning things is more accelerated here overall. You have to really be quick. Like, there's no way to linger. There's no way to take it easy. After that, you learn and you adjust, and then you can slow down a bit. But at first, you have to, or at least that's how I saw things. I had to prove myself. There was no time to come up with excuses. And I remember, so after that night studio class, I don't know, I what I played, but it was, it didn't go as well as I wanted. And I felt that, you know, I'm gonna say that there was no encouragement. I just, I didn't feel that I was adjusting there as I had hoped. So, and I was on the stairs in front of Rock Hall building and I just, I started crying. I just lost it. I think it was the first time when I felt to just let it out, you know, in form of, in the form of tears. And I saw that at that point everybody had left home and Dr. B came out of the building and told me, what's going on? And I told her, like, I'm so sorry. I messed up and everything. And it was so late. I couldn't call anyone here in Romania. I mean, It was late because of the 7-hour difference. So it took me a while to, to find the pace. It took me a while, but as difficult as it was, and like I mentioned, there was a pandemic that added up to that. I would do it all over again because I think this is how you find answers, a lot of answers.. And this is how eventually, eventually you start feeling good about yourself. This is the only way, you know, just sobbing and staying in an environment that, that, that's just clearly doesn't work anymore because that's what was going on before. It was not working. Things were not working for me. You know, I think that's the only way, as, as paradoxical as it sounds, just take the leap, take the, take the leap and, see where you land. You have to land somewhere. You have to. And before that, the preparation for it, because Temple was not the only option that I had, I decided to— so I had tried 3 times to come to the States. So first time, I think it was Houston. They wanted to give me scholarship, but then Something happened and they just canceled it. And then I tried, I think it was Michigan, same thing, but I didn't go there to audition. I didn't audition in person. And then the third time I said, I'm going to do this right or I'm not going to do it at all. It was the third time and that's it. And I auditioned for 10 universities. I prepared, and Hugh still doesn't believe it, but I kept the notebooks and the planners and everything. I prepared auditions for 10 universities across the US. And I raised money myself and I prepared everything, like every single document that goes with it, you know, the TOEFL exam, the, you know, having your diplomas legalized and sent over and research for universities and program and repertoire. And it was a lot of work that I did by myself. No one knew, absolutely no one knew except my mom. She wasn't quite sure that I was going to do that anyway. So in a sense, it was very exciting, right? To prepare for something like that, like something big. And I was pretty much aware of what's implied, right? But like I said, you really have to be really desperate to do that. And I think Yeah, that's why I said I would do it over again. Just, yeah, because right now I'm very grateful for how things turned out because I've learned a lot, something that I'm sure I could not have learned being back in Romania. You know, at some point you just have to feel when it's time to move on. Really, you just have to feel and just have to go with that. And I was happy to discover similar situation that Hugh went through, you know, in terms of we could share and we could understand each other, you know, that there was a time when that was the bottom. Of course, very, very different experience, unique experiences, right?

Right, right.

But the core of it was was similar, you know.

So that's the common thing that you shared. Yeah, more than music, dual music. Maybe equally, I don't know, maybe equally.

And the fact that, you know, um, I, I grew up in the '90s, after, right after revolution, when Romania was opening up, and it was opening up very, very slowly. And for the first, I would say, 10, 15 years, it was, it was still the aftermath of of communism. Um, and I, you know, I, I could see that we do have more things in common, uh, than, than we think. You know, even if I'm younger, it doesn't matter, but we still have certain, uh, life values, uh, that make us think like, boy, it's like we, we grew up in the same place at the same time. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, thank you for being candid and sharing this beautiful part of your story. So now, Hugh, it's your turn.

Well, um, I'll share a story actually much younger when I was invited by a local orchestra to do a tour and perform Rachmaninoff's— uh, no, no, no, no, it's not Rachmaninoff, it was the Beethoven Emperor Concerto. They do a tour, local tour, And at the time I was studying with Seymour Lipkin, and I remember coming up to him. I was so excited. Oh, Seymour, or Mr. Lipkin, I'm going to play the Emperor Concerto with such and such an orchestra. And he looked at me and said, no, you're not. You're not ready. I was so devastated. And he just said, call the conductor, cancel the tour. You're not ready. I, I'm not going to permit it. I, I remember feeling so angry, so disappointed, and I was in shock. I mean, I was never told I can't do something. There's an opportunity, you know. And so I did something very interesting. I drove out to the local hobby store, back when we had hobby stores, I bought a model of the USS Enterprise. I stayed up all night. I didn't get any sleep. I just stayed up all night building this model Enterprise, the decals. I just, I was so angry. I, and the only way I could get this anger or this emptiness out was to build something. It sounds strange. By the morning, I had this beautiful model of the Starship Enterprise, kind of worked out my anger, and I decided, you know what, I'm gonna do it anyway. I played the concerto, I performed with it, and I've gone since, had a chance to perform that Amberg Concerto many times afterwards. And, and I'm really glad that as a youngster I had the courage to defy my— and in classical music, you never defy your teacher. I, you know, I just It was— I thought that was the wrong way to do it, you know. For me, I'd rather perform and make a mistake than— he was the kind of person, he was kind of teacher that was so afraid of— he, he would play a concert and we'd be just like, oh, Mr. Lipkin, that was incredible, that was one— and he was just like beating himself up and just couldn't allow himself to enjoy the beautiful music he made. I'm like, Where is this coming? The self-masochism, you know, right? And it just— I couldn't do that, you know. Fast forward, you know, many years, there have been situations where yes, and I've had my share of beating myself up too. But one of the patterns I've seen— there was one, there was one particular incident where, well, one episode of my life where just everything was gone. I was very— I was just living with kind of rock bottom. And I decided to go and start a business, another separate business, okay? Just all in this whole new business. And it was a collaboration, and at first it was great, you know, and then it just, you know, took my mind, you know, and focused my energies. And, you know, I felt a lot of loss, but I felt like I was building something new through this. Well, a few months into it um, we had a big, big disagreement in terms of how things should run. Clearly some miscommunication, because it was quite successful. We had this miscommunication, and then I— and again, here I am again, rock bottom. I'm about to lose this whole new adventure that I just spent all this time and energy investing myself in. What did I do? I started a podcast. This is my my old podcast called A Musical Life, and I went on to interview some pretty amazing musicians. I interviewed people like Peter Schickley before he died.

Peter Kubacki.

Peter Kubacki. And also, yeah, Time for Three when they were just getting started.

Yo-Yo Ma.

Yo-Yo Ma. Actually, yeah, Sony Productions actually reached out to me and just said, you know, they were inviting podcasters to come out and interview The Silk Road Ensemble, they were releasing a new album, so I thought I would be, you know, one of, you know, dozens of people in the room or something. But we— I went up to New York City, I was the only podcaster.

And yeah, it's a really new thing.

Yeah, yes, I was the only podcaster. I got to interview like 2 or 3 people in the radio station, then they brought me into the radio booth where I got to set up my camera and interview Yo-Yo Ma. Oh wow, that was kind of cool. Yeah, yeah, it is cool. He's a great guy. So, you know, so the podcast went really, really— so I've had these— if there's a pattern that I've noticed in my life, then that when I'm really just— when things are taken away from me or I'm very, very disappointed, my therapy is just to go on a creative binge. It's— and again, I, it's— I, I don't know, I, I don't know how I would teach this. But some of the best creativities have been when I've been forced out of absolute desperation or despair or just frustration or just, you know, just a feeling like I've hit a brick wall in something. And then my brain just goes and just latches on to, maybe I'll just start a new hobby. I remember starting to teach myself how to shoot a bow, you know, the recurve bow, just from scratch, out of, out of nothing, you And these kinds of creative— I think there's a lot of validity to some of the greatest art comes from our greatest loss or our greatest moments of despair, where we— they create— the creativity becomes a healing mechanism, you know, where something, you know, if you feel like something beautiful, something positive is coming out of all this desperation or all this frustration. That's just been the pattern of my life. I've seen this over and over again. Not that I welcome the terrible, desperate, awful times.

No one wants that.

But no one wants that. But when I think when you're an artist, and I'm going to even put this out there, even folks who don't think that they are artists, there are always artistic venues that anybody can reach towards. To channel, you know, channel this frustration, channel this despair, channel the loneliness, channel the loss. You know, we can do it destructively. We can, we can drink a lot, we can ingest things, we can, you know, really take things that, that either numb us, right? And I, I've been in the— I've been in that period of time.

I've been too.

Yeah. Or we can take that and then rechannel it into something that, you know, it can be learning something brand new for the first time.

Madelina, thank you so much. I mean, we are coming to, toward the end of the conversation. So what I want is let's promote. The floor is yours. So tell us what you have coming up and where our listeners can experience more of your music.

So, oh, so this is coming out the end, at the time of this publication, it's the end of September. We have— just to check our website. And one of the things that we are being more active with is, you know, certainly getting our newsletter ramped up. We haven't actually done a newsletter in a while. We're getting that back up again. So I encourage you to join our newsletter list and go to matahue.com. We've got—

you've got—

there's a whole list of the concerts that we have coming. We've got a number of concerts already booked at this point, and We're going to continue to be booking more things, more projects in terms of video projects, you know, that we're going to be doing more forehand videos and stuff. So there's always going to be something, but be sure to sign up because we may be coming to a town near you. So check out our concert tour list on our website at madahew.com.

Sure. And then you're also active on Instagram. TikTok. I mean, I got a message from you through TikTok.

He's on TikTok. I'm on Instagram for also. Yeah, we share that.

Great. And the Facebook and so on, so that people can connect with you. Yep. Great. Now, before the rapid-fire questions, is there anything else? Are we good? Can we move on to that?

I think we're good. I mean, I think the thing to be looking out for is we're going to be working on a series of educational content. So a lot of it's going to be—

that's, that's developed.

Yeah, so we're developing actually a history of forehand piano music. We're going to be looking at— I think partly we were just so inspired by, uh, being guest teachers at this piano institute and running into so many interesting compositions that were so expertly curated by Lotus Chang, who is the, the, the director of the program there. I mean, I was so impressed with how she was able to find such disparate pieces that matched levels of the kids. We want to do a deep dive to sharing more of the repertoire, not only from the classical period, but also what's being published now that's worth— for, you know, we want to become a resource for teachers so that we can help.

Oh, that would be amazing.

Teachers and publishers and composers. And so we want to try to be a nexus for folks who want to explore the foreign literature more. So that's going to be an ongoing project. So a lot of resources we're developing for that.

Yeah, and also new repertoire to learn. We have a work by Hungarian composer Peter Wolf, very good friends with Sarah Davis-Buegner.

Oh, I remember.

She mentioned— Yeah, she premiered some of his Wolf tempered clavier pieces.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Yes, very imaginative and creative music. And yeah, he wrote— I believe he wrote a four-hand piano piece for us that we have not recorded yet. So we have to do this. We have this little bucket list of repertoire pieces that we have to dive in.

Yeah. Any of your arrangements available as a score?

Yeah, actually, curiously enough, if you come to our Patreon page, our Patreon page is where we usually post our arrangements. Not all of them, but many of them. We were recently— we have to be careful because I know with the John Williams estate, we're not allowed to post our John Williams arrangements, but other things that we do—

to monetize, actually, or to—

right.

But if you become a Patreon supporter on our Patreon page, I mean, first of all, we would really appreciate it, and that's where we distribute all of our, you know, what we can. We distribute our scores there.

Great. Wow. Before I let you go, we have one more thing to do, The Piano Pod with Rafi Pijar questions. Now, we take this segment very seriously. You've shared stories and expertise today, but these questions, the upcoming questions carefully curated by my team, me, will give our listeners a glimpse into who you truly are. So let's do this. What is your comfort food?

Cauliflower pizza.

Uh, Korean ribs.

How do you like your coffee in the morning?

Medium roast with homemade almond milk, cinnamon, and cardamom.

Recently discovered this new mushroom coffee, so now it's going to be black coffee with her homemade almond milk. She makes an amazing homemade almond milk and mushroom coffee. All mixed together with some agave.

Wow, very specific, you guys.

Yeah.

Next question: sunrise or sunset?

Sunrise.

Sunset.

Summer or winter?

Summer.

Winter.

Oh, level 2. What, what skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?

Dance.

Romanian.

Romanian.

Oh, and we're still working on it. I'm still not very good.

I can, I can say one sentence in Romanian. I can say, "Ia este priete na mia." Oh, I can't believe it!

So good! That's great!

Did you understand?

Yeah, they are—

No, she is my friend.

Oh, my friend. Okay, cool. That's so cool. All I can say is, te iubescu.

Oh yeah, te iubescu. I had a Romanian roommate in college, so.

Oh, there you go.

Cool. Yeah, there we go, right? What is your word or words to live by?

Carpe diem, music making, you know, stuff like that. Depends on the mood and day.

Create something.

Favorite venue you have ever performed in? Carnegie. Carnegie.

Carnegie Zenko Hall, that's for sure. Yeah.

What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Creativity and craziness.

Sense of humor.

Name a composer you wish more people knew about.

George Crumb.

Mel Boni.

All right, two more questions. Name one piece in your current playlist. Doesn't matter the genre, is.

Wait, I, I'll retract my answer.

You, you go, you go.

I will think about it.

Hey Hey were the Monkees? I, I, I don't know.

Um, Thunderstruck, AC/DC.

Okay. All right.

There we go.

All right. Last question. Fill in the blank. Music is blank.

Music is the most expressive powerful tool to connect people.

Music is food.

Music is food. Oh, this is the first one.

This is very pragmatic. Yes.

Ding ding.

Congratulations.

Well, you know, it's something like I said, I didn't realize that those 3 years that I was in a drought. I didn't realize it until I was actually fed again. And then I realized how hungry I was and how much I needed. So yes, for me, music is food.

So great. Madalina and Hugh, thank you so much for joining us today.

Oh my goodness, Yukiko, thank you so much for the wonderful questions. So you're—

yeah, your podcast is just incredible. I think I don't know anyone to do this and to edit it and to do—

yes, this kind of depth, the depth of your questions.

Yeah, and discussion.

Yeah, but you know, just like what you do and creativity and so on, and then you just obsessed and you do it, that sort of thing. And it's the same thing for me. And then this is giving me a lot of, you know, many, so many things. So good. And just being able to talk to artists. I mean, without this platform, I would never have met you guys to begin with. And then this has been a really wonderful conversation.

Yeah, it was because of Dr. Bugner in a way, because she was, yeah.

But hopefully next time we were in Brooklyn, if we get a chance, we'd have to grab some dinner together.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Sounds great. We're not too far from each other, so we need to hang out. Yes, definitely. Yeah. So anyway, going back, so I mean, we really appreciate you being here and sharing your journey and really being candid with your stories and opinions. So to our audience, if you'd like to To explore more of Mada and Hugh's work, visit their website at madahugh.com and follow their YouTube channel at Mada Hugh Piano Duo for the latest performances, arrangements, and so on. And you can also connect with them on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and support their work through Patreon. You can find all the links in the show notes. And of course, a huge thank you to all of you, our faithful fans of for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up and subscribe.

I saw a lot of thumbs up popping out. I didn't know what they were.

I know, right? Like, it's just a platform thing. Yeah, I have to figure out. But please share and review this episode on your favorite social media platform and tag The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. It's one of the best ways to help our community grow, and we love hearing your feedback. For the latest updates, the guest news and stories that spark creativity and connection, follow The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song on Substack, TikTok, and LinkedIn. I'll see you in the next episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Thank you, Madeline Hu.

Thank you. Take care, everybody.

Thank you.

Say bye.

Oh, bye. Tschüss.

Bye.