TPP S1 E11: Selena Pistoresi -- Neurodiversity Specialist

Welcome back to another episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, Clara Zhang, and Eric Hunter. Happy spring and happy April, everyone! Hope you're enjoying the season of renewal, rejuvenation, and warmer weather outside. There are a lot of reasons to celebrate during this month, and one of them is that April is National Autism Awareness Month, and, uh, which was launched in 1970 to promote autism awareness and assure that all affected by autism are able to achieve the highest quality of life possible. To celebrate this very special month with you and promoting your diversity and inclusion, today we're interviewing Selena Pistorazzi from San Jose, California. She's a pianist, piano teacher, creator of Notable, and neurodiverse inclusive specialist. So everyone, let's welcome Ms. Selena Pistoresi. Welcome. Thank you so much for coming.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk to you.

Yeah, same here. Now, I found you on Instagram and I happened to stumble upon one of your videos you were posting, and you were teaching on the video to this young student. I believe he has— he's the— in the autism spectrum, according to your post. And you were so sweet, you were singing a song. This little boy was really into music, I could tell. And then with his mom's assistance— I believe that was his mom— and he was raising his arms and waving his hand. It was just sweet video you posted, so I couldn't help but liking the video and then following your Instagram. So thank you so much for coming today, Selena. I'm glad you enjoyed the videos. So we have a ton of questions today, so let's just get into it, right?

Let's get it.

So, um, just to be on the same page for everyone, can you please define the word, uh, neurodiversity for us? What does it mean?

Yeah, so neurodiversity, which by the way, I didn't make that word up, but neurodiversity is, it is the idea that, simply the diversity of human brains and minds. So it's kind of the biological fact that there are infinite variations in cognition and brain function in humans. So the neurodiversity covers what is referred to as neurotypical brains, as well as a bunch of neurological differences that can include autism, ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia, dyscalculia, Tourette's syndrome, and some others, depending on who you're talking to. There's not, um, you know, an official neurodiversity body that tells you what is included and what is not, but it's really just the recognition that, you know, the human experience and human brains can manifest in so many different ways. All right. Yeah.

Wow. Thank you so much. Now, sorry about the horn outside. Anyway, now I also am very curious about the terminology, you know, disabilities versus special needs. Which is the correct word, or is there such a thing? Or—

Yeah. So first I would say, you know, I'm I think it's important to have compassion for whatever terms people are using. And, but I do like to try to let people know about what the, what the disability, what the disabled community is asking us to use. And so special needs, you'll hear a lot depending on your region. It's used a lot in the United States. And I think it came from, you know, trying to— it came from a really good place, you know, like people with disabilities have dignity and we don't want to see them as disabled. But the disabled community is saying Actually, disability is very real. It's not a dirty word. It's just, it's just a fact of life. And not saying it actually makes things a lot harder for us and further stigmatizes disabilities. So I've been using the term disabilities and disabled, you know, people with disabilities instead of special needs. And it depends on, you know, where you live and who you talk to. It's a little tricky as piano teachers because I find a lot of people are searching for you know, special needs piano teaching, or even like parents are, you know, piano teacher for special needs. And so I think that it'll be a little while to get the ball rolling and get everybody on the same page. But the majority of the disabled community is asking us to use the term disability.

Really? Wow. But, and I— yes.

So I'll also say that, you know, it does come down to individual preference. So if you meet someone who is disabled and they say, I don't want you to say that I'm disabled, of course, let's not, you know, so It comes down to that.

Of course, yeah. But by using the disability, the word disability, the word itself becomes more inclusive. So I think it might be a good thing to use disabilities, that terminology more.

Yeah, exactly.

So how many students do you have in your studio right now?

So for the last 5 years or so, I've had a running constant of about 50 students. Actually, just this year I pared it down to 40 because I'm doing all this other teacher training stuff and I just can't do it all. So I have about 40 right now.

Really? So, uh, do you have like a waitlist?

I do. Yes. I have a waiting list and yeah, uh, that's part of the reason why I started training teachers because there's so many students and I could never possibly teach them all.

So, and do you teach all of them private students?

All of them are one-on-one.

Wow. Really? And then, um, how are you doing teaching on Zoom or online? Right now with, uh, students with this, um, you know, uh, neurodiversity?

Yeah, um, I honestly, it's way better than I thought it would be. Not, not as in like it's better than I thought I could do. Uh, the transition was a little bit hard for everyone, I think, just getting used to something new. But, um, as long as the parents are there to support, a lot of times, um, it's going really well. I would say some students are even doing better than they were in person.

So really amazing. That's great. Now, do you all— do your students have all disabilities?

Most of them do. Um, some of them I, I actually, I don't usually ask for a diagnosis. Well, I, I don't ask for a diagnosis. Parents often, you know, bring it up in the beginning, but sometimes they don't and I just run with it. So I'm not quite sure, you know, the, the level of, uh, diagnosis. With everyone in my studio, but most of them do have a disability.

How did you come to specialize in this population of students? Do you have any special training? I know you studied piano in college, so—

Yeah, so I studied piano in college. I got a degree in music and psychology. And actually, late in my junior year of college, I got a job at a nonprofit inclusion school in the Bay Area. And that was my first taste of the world of disabilities and neurodiversity. And so the school was really small. It was actually brand new when I started working there. And so I had the chance to dip my toe in everything. And I was doing admin work, but then I had also been teaching piano since I was in high school, so since 2008. And the director was like, you know music, you teach piano, would you like to develop a music program here? And so I did.

And—

It was great. It was, it was, um, a bunch of different students with different diagnoses and different ages all in the same classroom. And so I really, you know, got to figure out what works for each student and how to include everyone and what's going on and how to level things. And that was my main training, I guess, just being in that experience.

And so— Selena, can I jump in for a second? That just sounds like a huge challenge. Like so many of us struggle with just teaching one student with disability, maybe even a mild disability, how are you able to manage an entire classroom of kids with different levels like that?

I mean, I will say I don't even know how classroom teachers do it in general. Like, I, I am now— I'm a private teacher because one-on-one is my thing. But, um, yeah, it was— I mean, it was difficult at times, um, but there's so much more that you think you can do, or you can do so much more than you think when you take the time to sit down and figure out each student and A lot of times, you know, one activity can be scaled in a bunch of different ways. So it's not like I had to reinvent the wheel for every student. It was just, you know, we're going to sing this song together. You who, you are non-speaking, you're going to answer me on your, with your, you know, picture choices, or you over there, you're going to participate by moving your body this way, you know? So it worked out.

That just sounds terrifying to me. You must be so creative, like especially at the beginning of your career to be faced with that kind of challenge. I feel like I would have drowned. So kudos to you.

Thank you. It was a lot of Pinterest.

That's very interesting. Actually, can I jump in? I have one quick question. When I first moved to New York— and I see, and I think you're still quite young, so that's just really inspiring. When I first came to New York, I just came out from teaching at UMass Amherst. So I was teaching in college, and then all of a sudden, I got this full-time gig teaching in the middle school, and it was like a specialized music school, really. But I did realize I have— I had a couple of students that might have special needs or, you know, disability, but they were not diagnosed. And I mean, I don't know, I didn't go to school like middle school at this great school in this country, and I just came here for college, so So I remember it was so difficult and then it was like, I didn't know. So are all your students, they were private students from the very beginning or, uh, in my studio currently they were all private students. But when you first start teaching in the school, they were in a group as well, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

How did you manage that?

You know, I will say that it was a very small school. I think there were, you know, like no more than 13 students in a class. So I did, and I did have a lot of support. So there were one-on-one aides with some of the students who needed more support. And I did have a lot of support from the director. You know, it wasn't just like me in a room with 13 different kids of different ages running around. Like, so I had the luxury of support, I guess. A lot of like, you know, public school teachers with a huge classroom, it's a lot harder to give that student the attention they need.

But were there any, um, like behavior issues?

You know, I've come to see behavior a little bit differently now, especially, but if students, if the environment was, it's not always the environment's fault, but sometimes if the environment is overstimulating for a student or, you know, if the student really wanted to do one thing, but everybody else was doing the other thing, there could be, there were some behaviors. A lot of times it was helpful to have an aide there to help the student get back into a, calm their nervous system down and get back into a zone where they're ready to learn. So there were, I mean, there were behaviors. Yeah, there were some hard days, but I don't want to say that's like all on the students either, you know, there was—

Of course, yeah, no, it must be, uh, that's amazing. Bravo to you. That's so great.

Thank you.

So what are the most common disabilities you encounter in your students? Can you describe the characteristics?

Yeah, yeah, so most of my students are autistic. And just a little note, I love to talk about terminology. Sure, go ahead. Just a little note on terminology. Some people, if you have any training in autism or anything like that, you might have heard it's super important to say person with autism or people with autism and not say autistic people. Again, what we're hearing from the majority of the autistic community, especially the adult community, is that they would like for us to use identity-first language. "autistic person" because they see autism as part of their identity that they can't be separated from. So it's like not a disease, like a person with, you know, X disease. So I'll say autistic. If it makes you cringe, I'm saying it on purpose. And then again, it comes, it comes down to individual preference, so of course I'd respect whatever people want to use. So the majority of my students are autistic, and you know, there's a lot of ways to describe autism. It's considered a developmental disability. People with autism have different levels of connectivity in the brain, and so, you know, it can come with some areas of weakness. It can also come with some huge strengths that I see all the time in my piano lessons. So, uh, one of the, one of the things I see the most challenge-wise is dyspraxia. So that, that can also be a part of autism or diagnosed with autism, and that is a disorder of like of movement basically. So trouble with fine motor skills or like those little finger movements or those gross motor skills, large movements. It can also really affect the muscles that you use to coordinate speech. So because speech is a motor function. So those are the big, big ones that I see a lot. So there can also be things like sensory differences. So, you know, oversensitive to certain stimuli or undersensitive. So not always knowing what, what you're feeling in your body or needing pressure because you don't sense the pressure of the atmosphere as well, or, um, trouble with balance, like that vestibular sense. Um, so, but then of course it's not just like a list of deficits, you know, I, I, a lot of my students also have perfect pitch, um, and are extremely creative. Yes.

Is that part of the characteristic of having to have neurodiversity, or I mean the autism to ADHD maybe, or—

Yeah, so there is research. It's hard to do research on this because of the way that research is currently done. So, you know, you, when you test for perfect pitch, you essentially ask people what the note is, right? Like, right. Um, and so if— or you ask them to play the same note that you played or something. But if you have motor challenges, you you can't— or speech, you know, you can't answer and you can't coordinate your hand to play the right thing. So it's a little bit hard to know until students have developed those motor skills, which we do in the lessons. But, um, I mean, in my experience— so there have been some studies that have found higher rates among people with, like, autistic people and people with ADHD. Um, in my experience, almost every autistic student I've ever worked with has perfect pitch. So, I mean, I won't say that they all do because of course I can't make that, that claim, but I always assume that they do when I meet a student first, just because I'll teach them a little bit differently if I have that in mind.

Wow, that's amazing, because I had this impression of especially, particularly children with autism, they are very sensitive to sound or any sensory things that they're very sensitive. So I thought they wouldn't like music, for example, because they're so sensitive.

But yeah, I mean, I've encountered students who are very sensitive to sound. I've actually never encountered a student— and I guess piano lessons are self-selecting for students that like music— but, um, I've never encountered a student who, you know, was— their sound sensitivity affected their ability to enjoy music. So a lot of times it's more like just like the, the sound itself being, you know, new or scary, and then also like a little painful. So like soft things, you know, playing softly or listening to music that they can control and that they know, that can, that can mitigate that.

Okay. I'm curious about students with ADHD. Uh, can you tell us a little bit? Have you taught students with ADHD or do you currently have?

Yes, I have, and I do have students with ADHD. I'm sure if you're a teacher, you will encounter students with ADHD at some point in your career. I think it's like 1 in 5 children are now diagnosed with ADHD.

I feel like a lot of musicians, you know, as musicians, they all have a little bit of that, right?

Yeah, so, um, there are some, some studies that are saying that, you know, musical creative traits can be found more in, or a little at a higher rate, in people with ADHD and autism. Um, so yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think more research needs to be done into that. Not that research is— I mean, in my experience, I believe it. But, um, yeah, so, so I guess if you are a teacher and you encounter students with ADHD, um, you know, some helpful things to know are that there are really brain differences The brains look different, they're different, some slightly different chemical things going on in the brain, and, you know, different areas of activity. So it's not just like students being lazy or, you know, students being wild. So, so students with ADHD can sometimes have executive functioning challenges, and that's also with autism. Um, okay, and so that means that they need support when it comes to breaking things down into smaller steps and, you know, knowing like the concept of time— like, you have 10 minutes left— that might be too abstract. Um, also like the ability to switch between tasks. So it can be really like off-putting to have to suddenly switch tasks without warning. Those are just a couple of the things. But again, a lot of times they score higher in divergent thinking, which is how creativity is measured in scientific research. So like Wow. Different ways of doing things that other people don't think of because they're not limited by this, you know, standard way of thinking. So that's why music study can be so amazing for, for people with ADHD and other forms of neurodiversity.

Yeah, I have— I used to have— I still do have some students with ADHD or that within that spectrum or family. Tree, I guess. And they actually tend to be very creative. So if I give them one thing, they can just create 10 different things. But it took me some time to discover that. I thought, you know, for the first time, I, I wasn't aware of maybe he or she doesn't like music because he or she is fidgety and not listening, or So, so as a teacher, what do you think we are— how far can we go? Because I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a trained psychologist, so— but in some ways we can see the difference because we teach different students on a daily basis, and this child is different. Right, overly sensitive, or but also has this amazing gift of being creative or perfect pitch or maybe other traits and characteristics. So what do you think as a piano teacher we can do to help to those families?

Yeah, so that's a great question. The answer is we can do a ton. You don't have to be a trained psychologist or, you know, I mean It's important to be flexible as teachers. I think that's the most important thing that we could do. And so if you see a student who, and I've really struggled with this, but if you see a student who, you know, isn't responding well to the way that you're teaching them, so, you know, if my typical traditional way of teaching is like, you know, you come in, you sit down, we're gonna play a song that I tell you to play, it's gonna be great, we're gonna have a good time, but that doesn't work for a lot of students. With, you know, neurodivergence. So, um, it's important to, to see, okay, is this— if this isn't working, how can I give the student more control over what they're learning? That's usually a really big part of it, is, you know, can I give them options instead of just telling them what to do? Can I let them lead more of the lesson and then extract from whatever they chose what I wanted to teach them today? Um, also, is it, is it so important that they follow this exact path? Like, Or, you know, can I just explore their interests and then let that eventually lead them into a path that they'll enjoy? I mean, if, if children and humans are not enjoying themselves on some level, then they're just not going to learn. I mean, they're not going to take that in. So if, you know, if we're getting them to sit still and listen to us and like mechanically play what we say, what good is that really doing? You know? So, um, yeah, I think being flexible is really important and I mean, running with that creativity, you know. I have students that just like to make up songs for most of the lesson. I don't— that's fine. And I find that as you build that relationship— I'm really big on like relationship-based approaches— so as you build that relationship with the student, they will come to trust you more and decide that you are a person worthy of their attention. Plus, they'll developmentally get to a place where they're able to pay attention longer and longer as they as they get older. But, you know, it's up to us to really earn the students' trust and attention and show them that, right, that, you know, but this—

yeah, but that approach is something that I had to learn also because I'm coming from very traditional background where teacher is the master, and then we, uh, we bow down and listen to the teacher. Whatever he or she says, we have to do that. Kind of upbringing I was brought up. So to reverse that, you know, the student, especially with ADHD, he or she is in charge of the lesson, and, you know, I let them decide what they do, especially, you know, for the period of time I have to earn trust from them. That is a really learning curve for me as a teacher.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me, I mean, me too. I came from a very traditional background. I still feel I feel that way about my teachers. Like, you know, I worship the ground they walk on and I will do whatever they say. And then as a teacher, I still have to, you know, meet my student where they are. I would say, you know, I don't encourage teachers to just throw their hands up and say, okay, whatever you want to do, child. But you know, it's more like a partnership as opposed to like a, you know, one person up here and one person down here.

Sure. More negotiation, right? Yeah. Yeah. But that's, That was new to me.

Yeah. It can be a huge relief for teachers when they are able to switch to that mindset because you don't have this, like, you don't have to control everything that's going on and you don't, it's not your responsibility to make them listen to what you're doing. You can come up together with something that will work for them and then just relieve the burden of, you know, trying to force things to happen. Right.

Yeah.

Selena, I have actually two questions for you. The first one, just in response to what you were saying, you know, I was having a conversation with another friend of mine last week who's also a teacher, and we were talking about this particular area, teaching kids with ADHD. And for me, sometimes compared to teaching a kid without ADHD or without a disability, it feels almost like I'm teaching a different subject, and I have a little bit of difficulty with that trans— uh, transition. Maybe I just need a little bit of validation for you, but because, um, like if you take for example a student that responds well to traditional training and having like a very structured approach where they do the next piece in the book or they, you know, follow the syllabus or whatever, and then you have an ADHD kid where you really have to let them be the leader to like follow their impulses, you know, within reason, and maybe they end up writing their own song. To me it almost feels more like teaching composition or something rather than piano as we traditionally think of it. So do you think it'd be helpful to just have a completely different mindset, like these are two different things? Because I feel torn between that sometimes.

Yeah, that's a great point. I definitely had to get way better at composition and improvising.

Yeah.

Because I didn't know anything about improvising about, I don't know, 10 years ago, and I just grew up doing only classical. So it's pushed me out of my comfort zone as a pianist to be able to support my students in the way that— and I have some students who are prolific composers, like they're really good, way beyond my level. I need to pass them along to a composition teacher actually. Um, but yeah, I mean, you could— I don't want to say like, you know, rule out teaching sight reading and like traditional piano things, but yeah, it can definitely help to have that mindset. Um, if that's your student's interest.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, my other question for you is ADHD is an area of particular interest. To me. And so I hope I don't offend anybody with this question, but for me, I'm always trying to figure out— we know there are, there's definitely a genetic component, right? And like you said, the brain actually looks different. But I'm always trying to figure out, like, how much is biological and how much is environmental? Because certainly in the way we approach, for instance, giving them some tools to help them, it comes down to training them to work with these tools. In order to be able to help themselves and become independent. And maybe if they would have had these tools before they came to us or had just more support in various ways, things would have turned out a little bit differently. So how do you see that, just that division?

Yeah, that's a good question. It's a little hard to answer because kids could be in an environment outside the piano lesson that makes it hard for the learning to continue.

Exactly.

People say that like the parents do the best they can and kids do the best they can, and a lot— and so many, like way too many kids have ADHD for it to all be environment. So, you know, it's— it is really like a, a component that's going on like inside them. And it's— I always assume, and like, you know, innocent until proven guilty kind of thing, I assume that this is an issue that I can support the student within the lesson, and I'll try my best get parents on board. Of course, like, and they usually are. Of course, you probably run into situations where you feel like the things that the parents are doing at home is just counter to what you're doing in class.

Right.

Um, but, but yeah, I mean, I think it's helpful to know also that the way that we grew up with both piano and probably parenting and like environment, people have often expected things of us that we're not developmentally ready for. And we often expect that of students too. And so there's more and more research coming out now that there's this like expectation gap between what kids can do emotion regulation-wise and like behavior-wise. There's a gap between what they can do and what we, what they, what we think they can do. So, and it depends on the kid. There's different, you know, milestones, like average ages that they can do certain things, but you know, some students take a long time to develop. That ability to like control themselves. And so, you know, you could have a 12-year-old student with ADHD who hasn't gotten to that part where they're able to name like that abstract thinking, they're able to name what's going on inside them and tell it to other people. So it's helpful to keep in mind. I mean, we could do a whole podcast on that, like just, just recognizing. But I think it's important to keep in mind like developmental stages and, and know, you know, the student really might not be capable able to do what I'm asking them to do. If it's this like thing that keeps coming up over and over again and you're like butting heads, then it's probably really a matter of something that's going on inside them.

Right, right. Yeah, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, I have a 3.5-year-old and an almost 6-year-old myself, and, uh, and I've had to learn kind of the hard way that a lot of times when they're having a meltdown, it's because of me, you know. I did not recognize how they were feeling, what was going on in their heads, And, uh, you know, I squeezed them too hard. I asked them for something they weren't ready for. They'd already been having a rough day. I didn't realize it until now, you know.

Um, yes.

Yeah. I mean, it's very tricky. It is. And that's such a great realization to have in, in teaching and in parenting. But I, I will say I had my students used to have way more meltdowns than they do now. Uh, and I think that's because of experience, not not necessarily experience. Like if I had made this mindset switch my first year of teaching, then maybe I could have avoided all those meltdowns. But yeah, a lot of times it's because I'm pushing too hard. It's, it's my fault. Um, and I think that's a good thing for teachers to know if you're able to stomach that little ego hit.

I'm guilty of that.

Yeah.

I'm guilty of that as a teacher.

Right.

Well, related. Yeah. Yeah. No, related to this though, we have, oppositional defiant disorder, right, which frequently is found with ADHD. And again, I'm, I'm not an expert, I'm sorry, I'm just talking off the top of my head, but what is opposition? Let's say just take a kid without disability, like, you know, like I see in my sons, okay, I'm just gonna speak from personal experience. They get oppositional when I'm pushing them too hard. Now, if this happens repeatedly in a kid's life, and they're frequently under a lot of distress, then it can develop into something where they start to overreact, right, you know, or they feel out of control. And so this is what I'm interested in exploring, like, you know, and again, as teachers, um, how, how we help them with this is to give them back some of that control, right? So that is kind of environmental and socializing and Yeah, oppositional defiant disorder.

I hear that being asked about so much in piano teaching circles, and I think it's important to know that it's a, it's a label. It's not necessarily a helpful diagnosis because it's just like, this student is oppositional. Okay, cool, what do we do with that? It's not, you know, it's also not really like a its own brain thing. It's just a description of symptoms. So, um, students with oppositional defiant disorder or with that diagnosis often don't respond very well to behavior interventions, um, like those kind of reinforcers that you might use to increase a desired behavior or consequences to decrease an undesired behavior. Because they're— like you said, the reason that they're acting like this is not because of like an intention, it's because their, their nervous system is in a state of distress. So I mean, there's a really good book that I recommend to everyone who's interested in this. It's called Beyond Behaviors by Mona, Dr. Mona Delahooke.

Okay.

It's completely changed my life, honestly. It's the kind of book that like keeps me up at night. It's so good. But she talks about like, or she, you know, condenses research that's been done on the nervous system and how our nervous systems are always keeping us— their job is to keep us alive, right? Generally, right?

Make us aware of danger.

Yeah, so, and like from an evolutionary level, like we're either in the social engagement mode, which you can think of as like green, the green zone, which is what we are doing right now. Like we're all not really under threat, we don't perceive a threat, we're talking to each other, everything's fine. Or we're in fight or flight, fight, flight, freeze, that kind of thing. Or sorry, fight or flight, which is when you might see students with those like big emotions and they're like lashing out in some way, or they might be in like what she refers to as blue, which is like shut down. So that, that's just, you know, hopelessness. That's usually if like red has persisted for so long and nothing has happened that there's just no hope anymore and you just shut down. So if you see a student, you can kind of tell, is my student green, social engagement, you know, are they And this isn't labels that we teach the kids. This is for us to, to notice. Are they engaging? Are they smiling? Like, or, you know, are they able to listen to what I'm saying? Or are they lashing out and they're in like this hyped up red zone? Or are they shutting down? If they're in red or blue, we can't teach them. Like, we're— nothing is going to go in. So we need to— that's our responsibility, to get them back into the screen. And you can do that by— I mean, giving them control is a good one, but also just like engaging in general. So what does the student love, even if it's not music related? But if a student is like in this, starting to get into like this red zone in your lesson, you know, it's time to like stop what you're doing and, you know, just pull up a YouTube video of their favorite song or something that just will get them back into this zone.

Yeah, and this applies really to all students, not just students with disabilities, right? This is something I'm still learning, still working on. Yeah, that reminds me, you know, sometimes some teachers and psychologists use this kind of emotional regulation chart where you have the red, blue, green, yellow, and you ask the student at the beginning of the session, okay, where are you today? Um, uh, are you familiar with that?

Yeah, so, so many, and that can be a really helpful tool for those students that have gotten to that developmental stage and that are able to name what's going on inside them and tell it to other people. People, right? But I would say for like the majority of the time that that's used, especially like in, you know, a kindergarten classroom, kids aren't even doing that yet. Like, they don't— they'll be like, I don't know, green, and they don't really know what's going on inside them. So, um, well, I don't want to say don't use them, but just be aware of if your student or child is capable of, of doing that yet, because—

right, yeah. So if you try that out and it doesn't seem like they're responding, they're probably just not developmentally ready.

Yeah, and but once, once they are, they can be really helpful and useful to do that. And especially if you get the student to describe like their zones in their own terms, you know, like, so when you're feeling like, when you're feeling green, you know, how is that for you? And they might say like, I don't know, cozy with my teddy bear or something, like just having them name that. And so you can eventually come back to like, how can I get you to feel cozy with your teddy bear? Or right, you know, get them to Yeah, right.

Let's get back into the teddy bear zone.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay, this is so informational and educational for me, you know, because this is still, I would say, relatively a very new subject. Uh, I haven't really had too many students, uh, you know, I can probably count with one hand how many students. But what I'm curious, uh, Selena, is that have you had any adult students with autism I heard earlier you say that some of them had a perfect pitch. I would tell you this much. I still have a teacher, you know, across the street, and he actually had a couple students that were adults. I think they were about my age, I would say. And they both play so beautifully. And one of them I actually subbed for a while, and we even somewhat became friends. Even though, you know, she has autism, so we are the exact same age, but, you know, sometimes I feel like when I talk to her, I almost feel like we're in the kindergarten, but like in a really great way, you know, she's just really kind. And they're really, really musical. And so that, you know, I was very fortunate to have that experience. So for me, I guess my question is that, see, I always have this dream that I think we are teaching music to teach the world to be a better or more peaceful place. Imagine these young students that have some disability. How would you— well, first of all, have you had students that are adults that have these symptoms?

Yeah. That's a great question. I just realized, I think no. Some of my students are like 18, 19, 20. I haven't had anyone my age, right, who's, yeah, autistic. I've had adult students who, you know, I've noticed maybe what I think to be some traits, but I like, of ADHD or maybe even like on the spectrum. But I, I've never had an adult like, you know, older than me on the spectrum actually.

Got it. And the second part is that all the all the students, you know, I know you've been teaching for a while, like, so you say some of them are already 19, 20, you know, that do they continue with music? I mean, my goal is always like, I wish like most, so far it's been doing okay. Most of my students, they start with me and they, some of them are in college and they're still going. And I have some adult like 80-some years old and they've been playing for 60-some years and they're still going and that just melts my heart. Right. Like, but how do you keep on going? You know, it's not easy. Right. I, I see.

Yeah. That's a great question. I have, I know a lot of other teachers who have had students that have gone on. I actually just, it turns out that I specialize in working with kids. So that's why I haven't.

Yeah. Yeah.

I know a lot of other students or teachers who have students with, you know, like autistic students who have gone on to play in college. Or even if they, like my students, if they don't play in college, they just keep taking private lessons. And that's, it's really just comes down to like, if they like it. Right. And if they've like, by the time they're 18, 19, 20, you know, it's usually more of an independent hobby. And, you know, if they, if as teachers we've done the best we can to instill that like sense of independence, then yeah. I mean, I, of course they're still with me, so I would say yes, they continue, but I'm sure there are some that don't as well.

Right.

But I'm sure you're a great teacher. Once they find you, they probably don't ever want to leave. You know, it's like, you know, yeah. Do you ever find that?

Yes, I do. And I, um, yeah, I don't want to say that it's a problem because it's a great, it's a great problem, but that's actually why, like, again, one of the reasons why I've started training teachers, because I just want more like options for students. Um, you know, I don't, I'm not going to be around forever and of— I'm not saying I'm the only one that can do this, but like, there are so many students out there that want teachers.

So yeah, no, I want to take your class now.

Yeah, yeah, me too.

Yeah, same. I have two more questions for you. So, um, uh, especially as a teacher, you're not just teaching your students, and I know you were training teachers as well, but Sometimes you have to teach the parents, right? Yeah. That's number one thing that I noticed as a piano teacher of young students. It's not just the student. So do all the parents come to you with their children already diagnosed, or what do you do if there is not a clear diagnosis and you discovered something different about this? A particular student?

Yeah, that's a great question. So most of the time they do come to me with a diagnosis or a clear diagnosis. And then if they don't, I've never outright asked about a diagnosis. If it's something that is really relevant to like piano learning and it's somehow like something I'm not able to get around, I would say, or if I just think they benefit from support in this area, I'll say something like, hey, I noticed that, you know, Erica has a, has a hard time with blah, and, and just tell them, have you noticed that too, or have they noticed that in school? And that is about as far as I'll go as far as asking about a diagnosis. That's my personal preference. Um, to be honest, I don't really care what the diagnosis is because like even autism, it can, it can manifest in like infinite ways. So it doesn't really help me if the student, you know, if the student is a certain way then they're just— they are that way. If they go get a diagnosis, they're still that way. So, sure, you know, but of course I think it is important for them to get a diagnosis if it will help them get support, right?

Yeah, exactly. Not to differentiate them, but to get the help, right help.

Yeah. So I mean, you know, if I, for example, if I think a student is dyslexic, that might be something that really pertains to like their school. And so I might say something again like I— that script. I said, I noticed that she really struggles with, with this. Have you noticed that anywhere else? And, um, you know, but there's only so much we can do as, as teachers.

Okay, so what are— uh, last question for me is, what are some common misconceptions about students with disabilities?

Yeah. Oh, I love this question. So my— the biggest one I think is that a misconception is that, like, the way that a person moves or talks is an accurate indicator of their intelligence. That's a misconception. So, uh, again, with motor challenges and speech challenges, we don't know, uh, what is really going on inside their mind. And so a lot of times, you know, for example, a non-speaking adult autistic student or person, they might, you know, only be able to say a few words verbally But that could be because of their motor issues, their dyspraxia, and not necessarily, you know, language acquisition or like a language disorder. And it is— it's not— autism is not an intellectual disability. People can be— they can have an intellectual disability, but it's not that, um, you know, by definition. And so I think that's something that, that teachers run into a lot is just when, you know, they meet a student who is, you know, non-speaking, or they can't get an accurate gauge of intelligence, they'll just kind of assume that this person is like— they are intellectually younger than they are. I hear that a lot, like intellectual age, but there's really no way for us to know. I mean, unless you spend a lot of time with someone, um, you know, I'm not a speech therapist, so I don't know like the nuance of figuring out why someone has trouble producing speech, but I just want to say like it's, it's not always an intellectual disability. Um, I honestly have come to find that even when a parent told me that a student has an intellectual disability, I— it wasn't, or it didn't seem like it was after, you know, the student's motor skills improved and they were able to like, you know, execute what they wanted to execute. So that's a big one.

So you mentioned training other teachers. Now you've actually developed a course, right?

Yeah, I have.

Could you tell us a little bit about that?

Sure. So the course is called Unphased because that is what teachers will be after they take it. And yeah, um, so right now it's, it's running right now. Uh, the course is full at the moment, but it will become available again around May or June of 2021. And so teachers can head over to my website, which is notablepiano.com, and and check out the course. It is video modules as well as handouts and recordings of trainings that I've done. And depending on, you know, when you, when you find the course, there will probably be some kind of live component, like a group call, either monthly or weekly.

Mm-hmm. Sounds good. And so not to give away all your secrets, but can you tell us a little bit about the content? Like what topics you cover and— Absolutely.

Yeah. So We— the first half of the course is really setting the foundation as far as your mindset and your understanding of different diagnoses. So we do get into kind of the standard, like, definitions of diagnoses and a little bit of the science of what's going on for certain, you know, disabilities. We talk about a lot about presuming competence and what that means, environmental considerations, like sensory things, and then we get into the nitty-gritty of actually teaching piano, which is— oops— which is I'm sure why you're here. And so different methods, like the method that I've developed, as well as a couple of other ones. And, um, there's a whole section on, you know, non-method book but like enrichment activities— ear training, rote teaching, um, all kinds of movement games. And then we do get into online teaching, lesson planning, assessing a student for the first time. Oh, okay. I also just added two new modules, which I'm super excited about. There's one on challenging behaviors, and there's one on what's referred to as autism learning styles and strengths-based teaching.

Okay, great. Now, you've actually written your own method book, right? You mentioned—

I have.

Oh, okay. What's that like?

Yeah, so it's actually based on an approach or like a, a way of presenting information that I learned from a music therapist in the Bay Area named Susan Rancer. But it is a way of teaching note reading to— and, and developing motor skills in students. It's designed for like autistic students with perfect pitch, although I have used it with all kinds of students including adults. Just a great way of laying out information. Um, but yeah, basically it's starting with letters and not like note symbols students do start out in one position, like C position. I know that can be like, you know, there's like heated debates on whether that's good or bad. I typically don't do that with my other students, but when students have motor challenges, it is good to start in one position so they can start to develop their fingers and then move their hands around.

Okay.

Um, so yeah, it's, that's what it is.

Okay. Uh, do you have any like tips or tricks that you can give us for some of the teachers listening? Particularly, well, teachers who are not trained and are struggling with students that may or may not have disabilities?

My first tip, and I hope this doesn't sound like a cop-out, but my very first tip is presume competence. So that can actually go a really long way. When a student comes in, instead of waiting for them to prove that they understand, they understand you, just assume that they understand you and then talk to them that way.

Okay.

They do. I'm sure they do, especially if you're talking to them in an age-appropriate way with age-appropriate songs. So that's the biggest one.

Okay.

All right, great. Yeah, that's actually a really good tip. Thank you so much.

But I'm curious, as a young entrepreneur, music entrepreneur, I mean, which you are, right? And I noticed you on Instagram, and it's just so impressive. What is your day-to-day like? Like, how do you motivate yourself? And, you know, it's not easy, right?

Yeah.

It's honestly the biggest emotional rollercoaster is being your own boss all the time.

Right.

Um, but yeah, my, my motivator, I guess what my day-to-day looks like, you know, I, I know about myself that my, um, my creativity time or my time to create is like, is in the morning. So yeah, you're an early person. Yeah, I wake up and I do a little movement and then I make things. So the course or the Instagram content or blogs, that's what I do first thing in the morning. And then I teach all day after that. So I've, I've, if I am slacking off a little bit one day and I do something else in the morning and I'm like, oh, I'll save it for later. I won't do it later or I won't do a good job on it later. So, got it. And then, you know, to stay motivated, um, the only thing that works for for me is staying very close to my why. So I just am always keeping that in mind. My, my purpose in life is to get more students with disabilities playing piano. And so however I can do that, um, I mean, there are my own students that I have, but really the way I can do that is to train other teachers. So I just keep coming back to that. Like, although I do enjoy making money, I don't make decisions based off of how much money will I make. It's more like, can I get more students with more teachers?

Right.

So that's what helps me stay really aligned.

Wow.

That's just really amazing. That's really amazing. What is your favorite part of your job that, you know, after all these years of training teachers and yourself and your students, I mean, must be very rewarding.

Yeah. So for the teaching side, my favorite part is seeing the, of course, seeing the musical progression, but also like the non-musical progression. A lot of times these students come in and they've never had a hobby before, and their parents aren't even sure if they can learn, um, just because they've been told, you know, by teachers or other therapists like, oh, this is what they're capable of. And so I love seeing that like confidence build, that trust build. Um, you know, I've had parents come to me and say, oh, they played a song in their talent show at school, and now they have a ton of new friends who are really impressed their piano, you know. So that's my favorite part.

That's really great. Thank you so much.

It's time for the infamous The Piano Pod rapid-fire questions. This is pure fun. Are you guys ready?

I am ready.

Ready as I'm gonna be.

Yeah, we're gonna start out with the easy fun ones. All right, question number 1: What is your comfort food?

Dark chocolate.

Good answer.

Good choice.

Choice.

Cats or dogs?

Oh, dogs for sure, but I am a cat. Okay, okay, I identify with a cat, but I love dogs.

I could see both.

Yeah, I got it. What is your, uh, word or words to live by?

Right now it's surrender and abundance.

Wonderful.

Wow. Okay. What is the most important quality you look for in people?

Authenticity.

Good answer. That's the same word I chose.

Oh, really?

What is the worst quality in people you want to stay away from?

There's a word for this, but like complaining a lot.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, so name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead.

Okay, uh, Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

All right, good choice.

Uh, there is a UFC fighter named Amanda Nunes. She's all right. Yes, I think I've heard of her. Yeah, and Jacob Collier. Do you know who he is? He's a modern-day musician and he's amazing.

You should check him out. We're going to list him out. Yes, that's great. Which historic figure or composer do you want to learn or take lessons from if he or she were alive?

That's a good question. I think Chick Corea. He did just pass away, so he counts as a historical figure. Or can I pick another one? Yeah, Amy Beach. She didn't get a chance to teach much when she wanted to, so I would love to take lessons from her.

I love that choice.

That is great.

Awesome. And which historic figure, composer, do you wish to hang out with at the bar if he or she were alive?

Chopin. And I would love to just give him a hug and say, thank you for getting me through my teenage years.

He could probably use the hug.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Did he drink much? I'm not sure, but he's Polish, so he has to, right?

Selena, what's one piece in your current playlist?

Oh, it's a good question. I'm not listening to too much music right now, um, but I have been listening to a lot of, I mean, Chopin nocturnes when I'm just like relaxing.

So great.

Yeah.

Uh, what about books you're currently reading? Name one title.

Right now I'm reading The Power of Now.

Oh, that's a good book. It's a good one.

Who's the author again?

Um, Eckhart Tolle. Oh yeah, I don't know if that's right. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I've read it. This is my third time, but I read it a lot. It's really good.

Excellent.

All right, um, you only get one song or piece to listen to for the rest of your life. What is it?

Probably nothing, but if I had to choose, probably a Brahms cello sonata, like maybe number 1, E minor. Love that one.

Great. Okay. So for this last question, we're going to mix it up a little bit. Usually we say fill in the blank, music is blank, but I'll give you a choice. You can choose either music is blank or neurodiversity is blank.

Ooh.

Okay. How about neurodiversity is very real and beautiful.

Wonderful. Wonderful. Beautiful. Thank you so much. That concludes this episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Thank you, Stelina, for joining our show today and sharing your wisdom and expertise. And thank you to our audience for tuning in. We want to remind the listeners and viewers of this episode that notablepiano.com to inquire for her teaching and also for her coaching.

If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review on whatever podcasting platform you use. If you're watching it from YouTube, please hit the thumbs up button. Where is my thumbs up? Right here. And be sure to subscribe to our channel. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. The links are in the description below.

And as always, if you have feedback for us, please leave it in the comments, send us a DM, or you can email us at thepianopodnyc@gmail.com.

Hope to see you for the next episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Bye everyone!

Bye!

Thank you so much!

Thank you, Selena! Thank you so much!