Marriage Therapy & Pickleball - Courageous Conversations - Session One

I'm gonna begin today with a story, a story about a guy named Kevin. So Kevin, his organization, when he first came into it, he— his organization had lots of different identities. His organization's identities many times seemed to lack some consistency across their identities. Customers of his organization felt that the brand sometimes was fragmented. Fragmented. There was a lot of times that the creative decisions of the organization seemed disconnected, and many leaders thought the idea of Kevin's organization being fully connected and aligned was really unrealistic. It was very risky. They felt that it was one that customers wouldn't embrace. And what was interesting is that the biggest obstacles that Kevin faced was not actually competitors. It was not industry dynamics. It was actually these very intentional conversations that he needed to have internally with coworkers, with people that didn't report to him, with people that worked in different parts of the world, different parts of the country, different parts of the organization. Some people even outranked him, and he needed to have these conversations that were very purposeful. That were very intentional, and he had to have these conversations to push back on assumptions, to push back on kind of cultural norms, and to really push back on just this fragmented thinking that existed. He really had to advocate for vision of the organization over short-term comfort, and he had to repeatedly say this phrase that if we keep operating independently, people are gonna feel it. Now, you can imagine these conversations were not easy. Some of the conversations maybe even created a little bit of discomfort. Sometimes they created even a little bit of friction at times. And some honestly, leaders in the organization even resisted the conversations. But over time, what happened was, is that these difficult internal conversations caused something to happen at Kevin's organization that really transformed it. And what that thing was, that outcome, was this really increased sense of organizational alignment that had not existed in Kevin's organization. And now that sense of alignment has created one of the most powerful brands that many of you all will recognize. If Kevin's story is not familiar to you, or if Kevin's not recognizable to you, you may know him as the president of Marvel Studios. Kevin Feige. So Kevin leads a small little creative firm called Marvel Studios. He's the president of them, and that is who our story is about this morning. If you don't know, a couple fun facts about Marvel Studios: they have generated over $30 billion at the global box office. It's estimated that 30% of the North American box office revenues in recent years have actually came from Marvel Studios films. And one study showed that 63% of US adults actually consider themselves Marvel fans. So is 60% of this room Marvel fans?

Yeah.

So, okay, awesome. Rob, appreciate that. Okay. Doesn't surprise me. So, and by the way, for the true Marvel fans in the room, did anybody see the Doomsday trailer that came out Monday?

Yeah.

Please tell me. Thank you. Okay, yeah. So if you have any inclination about Marvel films at all, you know, there's been lots of debates about which was the best one and Endgame and all that. But there's one coming out December the 18th. It's Marvel Avengers: Doomsday. And in my opinion, it will be the best one ever. So that's a little teaser for you. Feel free to Google the YouTube trailer. Now, while Marvel Studios still has its challenges, as many of us maybe know, It's one of the most successful storytelling and branding achievements in modern history. And a couple things about Marvel. If you don't know this, back in the 2000s, so about 25 years ago, around 20, 25 years ago, there were some things that were happening at Marvel Studios that many of us today maybe not have— don't have enough information about. The different studios actually owned different characters. So many of you guys maybe know some of that, that history. The movies seemed to lack a lot of consistency across the films, and their brand identity was fragmented to a lot of people who were like customers and fan bases. Creative decisions were disconnected, and internally many people thought the idea of there ever being this kind of fully cinematic universe, they just thought it was really unrealistic, right? But Kevin believed something different. He believed that every story He believed that every character, he believed that every creative decision, and every audience touchpoint needed to feel this sense of connectedness across the brands. And not because it was easy, and not because it was even comfortable, but because he was willing to keep initiating these courageous conversations we're going to talk about today around vision and around collaborating, because he really wanted to just help his team. Take his organization to that next level. And that's really what we're here today to do is how do we go to the next level as UT System by leaning into some of these moments that I'm gonna talk to you about. So just like Marvel in the early 2000s, part of what we know about many university systems is that we've got different audiences across the university institution. We've got multiple priorities to support. We've got diverse communication goals and independent communication efforts across units. And there's a lot of campus-specific needs and approaches. So does this sound relevant? Am I in the right room here?

Okay.

All right. So like Marvel, it's not necessarily that there's a problem, but part of why we need to lean into these moments is because if we don't lean in when these moments happen, Our students can feel it, our faculty and staff can feel it, our donors can feel it, our legislators can feel it, and the public feels it, right? So any of you guys ever had a moment where you know that maybe others in the room are doing really good, talented, very well-intentioned work, but maybe it isn't quite the right message at the right time in the right way, and all of a sudden you realize that maybe something on the screen here that somebody's going to feel that, right? Right? And so part of what we have to do as communicators is lean into those moments so that we can help take ourselves and the organization to the next level. Now, to be really, really clear, today, this workshop is not about solving a problem that exists. So this is not about we're here to fix something. Today is about elevating ourselves, elevating our team, and elevating our organization. Does this make sense? And the way that this happens is, if you say, okay, we talk about courageous conversations, my assumption is, is that some of you all, if not many of you, have been in some sort of training or workshop like this where maybe you've covered things like Crucial Conversations and that kind of stuff. And this is a little bit different slant because this is more about how do we as colleagues and professionals not just accept status quo, but when something isn't just done exceptionally well. How do we lean into those moments and look for ways to be even better? Right? So that's the idea behind this. So some examples of when these courageous conversations might be helpful is if you ever are at work, and you sense that something you just saw, something you just heard, something you just experienced might be maybe a little bit more disconnected than what I thought, then this might be an opportunity for a courageous conversation. Or maybe You sense that the teams might be just unintentionally competing, right? Not by design, but just by default. We tend to have a little bit of competition between ourselves. Or maybe we sense that maybe we might be protecting a silo instead of serving our audience, right? So when those things happen, that's what today's for. It doesn't mean that someone's bad. It doesn't mean that someone's doing something wrong. It just means that if we're going to be exceptional, that we have to lean in and have better, more effective conversations at that moment. So fair enough. Alright. So today's learning objectives, couple things we're going to do by the end of the time, our time together, is we're going to elevate our conversation skills. So I'm not here thinking that you guys never even had these conversations before. I'm here thinking that you probably already are. So the question is, is are they happening as effectively? As you want? And could you leave here today with a little bit more skill sets around those conversations? The second thing is, sometimes it's not even the conversation itself. Sometimes it's just how you approach it that's going to make the difference. And so we're going to talk about some things that can help you with that. And then the last thing is, is how do you really focus your conversations on the observations and the impact of those observations instead of making conclusions about someone's intent or promotive. So that's really what we're going to really drill into today. My commitment to you all as a presenter and facilitator is I will make today as fun as I can. It's going to be interactive. There's going to be opportunities for you guys to do some polls on your phones. So get your phones ready. I'll have you scan some QR codes. There'll be some opportunities for you to not only take some notes, but I've got a couple of deliverables on your tables in front of you where you'll actually have a chance to kind of journal with yourself They're not tests, they're not things you have to turn in to anybody, but they're an opportunity for you to reflect. Part of what I've learned over the years is that adults learn best not by listening to me, but by writing, by talking, by discussing. So I'm gonna make a lot of space for that and have you guys reflect on things we're talking about. And at the end of the day, leave here being just a little bit better than we are when we got here. So, sound good? All right. So today also is about taking your B1UT values to the next level. I was prepping for this and I was thinking about how do I make sure that this doesn't feel like kind of an odd, just record scratch kind of piece of content, but how does it feel like— make sure that this is actually really well aligned to who you are as an organization. And there was two of your B1UT values that really jumped out at me. One of them was around embrace differences and the other one was around transparent and trusted. And when I think about the content that we're going to walk through today, those two are really going to be really come to the surface. And if we're really good at these courageous conversations, you're going to see that those two values are not only important in those conversations, but these conversations are also going to be a great opportunity for you to live out those values as well. Alright, so we're gonna tie it to those values. And the other thing I want you to appreciate is that if we're going to be here together for a couple hours, it's important that this work that we do actually contributes to advancing the organization itself. So I don't know if you guys know this or not, but you all have this strategic framework with 4 strategic priority areas and 4 priority enablers. So if I was going to do a pop quiz, how many of you guys could answer what all those are? Anybody? Okay. Melissa's like, y'all better raise your hand. Okay. So I will give you a tip on some of them. So some of them that specifically connect to today is number 1, is you've got this strategic enabler called developing talent to advance our mission. And so by the time we're done here today, we're going to make a meaningful contribution to this idea around how do we get better as an organization of attracting, retaining, and developing exceptional talent and anchoring those things in the values. And so that's our meaningful contribution. And then we're also going to contribute to things that are measurable because as you all know, there's things that we're looking at from a metric standpoint about how are we measuring our mission, how are we measuring our values, and so we're gonna look at how does this work contribute to moving the needle on things like your faculty net satisfaction score, your professional development rate, some of the things that Tommy and Kelsey talked about, and so this is all gonna be tied together and you guys are gonna see how this really actually is helping not only you be better, but help the organization be better. So that's my intro. So let me tell you a little bit about myself. So I have been a Tennessean for 40 years. 49 years. That is exactly how old I am too. So you can be thankful for that. I did some postgrad work at UT, but I did my undergrad at East Tennessee State University. That's where I met my wife. And my first real leadership job was actually at the University of Tennessee Medical Center, one of your sister organizations. And I— they, they made a horrible mistake there. I was actually not clinical by any background. But I found myself at some point being responsible for about 150 FTEs at UT Medical Center. I think they were really bad judgment of character. And I led clinical and non-clinical areas there. But that was really my big kind of launch into like supervisory leadership roles. Learned a lot of lessons. I'm gonna share with you some of the big mistakes that I've made here in a few moments. Right now, you heard Melissa share, what I really spend most of my time doing is working in healthcare. So I am what's called a human experience executive for healthcare organizations., and I currently focus a lot of my efforts around physicians and how do we make the healthcare world better for physicians. And so if you guys are interested in that topic, happy to nerd out with you on it. I do do a lot of executive coaching, speaking, small business owner in Knoxville with my wife, and we did have the nonprofit. If any of you guys ever heard— any of you guys ever watch the show Matter of Fact with Soledad O'Brien? You ever seen that? So our nonprofit got a chance to be featured on there. It was a really cool opportunity for, for some local organizations to be highlighted on a national level. I'm also Katie's trophy husband for 24 years. She would, she would agree with that. She would not. And father to Team Linkous. I've got 6 kids, as you heard Melissa say. Madeline, my 22-year-old daughter, her and her husband live in Brooklyn, New York. Julia, her and her husband live in Knoxville. And then you've got Elijah and Gabriel. We just sent Gabriel off to Morehead State University. Up in Kentucky. He'll be playing football up there. And then we've got Bella and Jeremiah, our two adopted kids. So big family. We do lots of work with them and travel extensively with them. So if any of you guys want to talk about kids or pets— I don't like pets. My wife has dogs. I don't have dogs. So, and then the other thing is, I know you guys have your leadership t-shirts on.. So if you'll notice, my leadership t-shirt is Roadhouse. So if you guys have any, any movie favorites there, I will tell you about this a little bit later in my content. So more to come. That's a hook for you. Alright, so let me tell you about some of the times that I messed up. So early in my leadership career, I was not as intentional, not as purposeful about some of the things we're going to talk about today. So I did things like, I used to avoid and delay a lot of the courageous conversations that I should have had. I used to put them off. I dreaded them. And so I didn't do them well. I also found that instead of just having conversations, I found myself just becoming like critical and contemptuous towards people instead of just leaning in and having those conversations when I needed. I also used to get really defensive when someone tried to have some sort of courageous conversation with me. And sometimes I would even withdraw if someone had tried to have that conversation with me. And then the last thing is, is I did not realize early in my career how important just intentional and purposeful relationships were. I thought that, hey, these people are my coworkers and, you know, we don't necessarily need to build this like deep relational, emotional, you know, connection with each other. And fast forward today, relationships are everything. And so I spend a lot of time just intentionally building relationships with people because I realize how important, how valuable, and how meaningful they are. So, those are some of my big mistakes that I made. I don't know if any of that relates to you all, but part of what I want to ask from you all, and this is where I want to invite you into the conversation, if you guys will grab your cell phones and scan the QR code, and this is where we'll start getting a little bit more interactive, is when you think about courageous conversations at work based upon what you know so far, If you had to describe how you feel about those courageous conversations, what word would you best choose? So we'll see your answers come in there immediately and have a chance to unpack them. I can— you can see up in the upper right-hand corner how many people have responded. So we'll give a chance for majority room to weigh in. I appreciate your all's Responsiveness and urgency. So we have about 40 people responded, and it looks like our results are kind of normalizing here. So nervous, I love that because that's honestly how I feel most of the time around them. It's a little bit of anxiety, a little bit of nervousness. Some people say, hey, it just depends. And my guess is, is that when I say it depends, it probably depends on the history with that person. It probably depends on What kind of relationship I already have with that person. Probably depends on, you know, when I've had maybe conversations with in the past with that person whether I've been the initiator or the receiver, how have they gone. So, some of that depends. And then curious to improve, I love that. One of the values that I try to live by is to always be humble and always be curious. Is try to figure out any moment like, how do I realize that I don't know everything and that I could be wrong? And And so how do I always show up in that way? So curious is great. A small group of you say confident. And what I would just ask for you, if that's you, is by the end of the day, is look for a nugget of how you could maybe be even more confident, right? Like how can you be even better by the time you leave here today? So hopefully this content today will meet you where you're at. Small portion of you say, hey, I just like avoid them, right? And I can relate to that because that was definitely part of my background as well. So, here's where I want to ask you to kind of take your own reflection of this topic to the next level. If you'll go to your handout, and the first handout I want you to think about is what's called this Business Case for Courageous Conversations. Now, this is not a group project. So, it's also not a test. You don't need to cheat off your neighbor. This is an opportunity for you by yourself to just take a few moments and write out your thoughts to these questions. Now, I know you can read, but just to have us kind of thinking about this, I'm going to read these out loud, and then we're going to make some space for you to walk through them. So the first question is, is why do we as a team need to be better at this idea of courageous conversations based on what you've heard so far? The second question is, what are the positive impacts that would be experienced as a system if we get better? The third question is, what are the costs and consequences to the system if we don't get better? And the fourth question— you got to pay attention to the words— is, what must I change about myself so that we can get better? Make sense? So take a few moments, write down your answers. You will not have to turn these in, so you can be as unfiltered as you need. I am going to have you in a few moments share some of your reflections with your neighbor, and then we'll hear from a couple of you guys out loud before we move on. So take a few moments, fill that out. I'll give you about 60 more seconds to finish. 20 seconds. I always hear people don't need more time, we just need a deadline. All right, 5 seconds, 4, 3, 2, 1. So here's what I'd like for you to do is pair up groups of 2, 3, no more than 3, and just have some discussion about what you wrote. So have some discussion about what you wrote, look for similarities in what you wrote, look for differences, and then in a few moments I'm gonna ask about 3 of you to be brave and share collectively with the group, okay?

How are you?

It's good to see you again, Tommy. I was just going to say hi to you. I had a chance to meet you, Tommy. Clay Linkous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give you 2 more minutes. 2 minutes.

One more minute. 30 seconds.

10. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Okay. I'm confident that I'm interrupting incredible discussions, but I do want to keep us on track. So if you guys could rein it in. So the next phase of this is for for us to learn from each other. And so do I have like 3 brave people that would be willing to just share kind of a summary of what you and your pair person, you know, talked about, maybe some of the things that you captured on your paper? Anybody want to go first? Brave volunteers? You want to go? Okay. And would you mind, can I bring you the mic? Okay. And you're welcome to share anything.

So kind of summarizing what we talked about is that we are one UT system. So having these conversations, like, we can open up transparency, we can streamline conversations, we can share resources. But if we don't, then that can help create silos and boundaries, and we could be missing out as a whole.

Yeah.

And just understanding Understanding where we are now, where we are in the future, and being able to better communicate that will help everybody across all of our campuses.

So good. Thank you. Stephanie, right?

Yeah. Great.

Thank you. Somebody over here? Yeah. Did you just get voluntold? Yeah. Can I bring you the mic? Is that okay?

She had good— that's why. If she had goodness, I wouldn't be able to hear her. Okay, so just start with—

just whatever you want to share.

Yeah. Okay, um, so I'll talk about costs and consequences of not being able to have these courage conversations. So I think if you don't have them, it can create misalignment, um, judgment of others, um, which can then lead to an inability to get things done efficiently. Yeah.

It's good. Did she miss anything, Kelsey? I'll cover it.

I know that you all have heard Randy write about big, hairy, audacious goals. Like, when I think of the one on the top left, we're doing really incredible work, your team specifically, to enable those— that goodness. So with as aspirational of a direction that we're trying to chart for you all, not being able to have timely conversations that are difficult just get in the way of the number Yeah, I think of his voice. I'm like, big, hairy, audacious goals. What's getting in the way of it?

So good. So good. Help us move fast. Help us achieve big things. One more person. Anybody?

You go.

Okay. Kylie. Is it Kylie?

Yeah. Okay. So I'll talk about the— what we talked about when we about changing ourselves for the conversations. We're both new, um, newer to our team, so we kind of talked about just having the confidence, um, of having those conversations and being a part of those conversations. Um, and just, we're here for a reason, so just believing in our ability and skills to lead and have those conversations.

So good. Thank you, Kylie. I appreciate it. Will you guys give your colleagues a round of applause? Melissa, I had not planned on doing this, but can I put you on the spot and maybe have you just share anything else that might come to mind around why these conversations are important?

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. I'm always willing to be put on the spot. Most of the time. What we talked about, Kenzie and I, That I think having the courageous conversations are important because it can help avoid any future toxicity within a work environment. For example, avoiding things like the meeting after the meeting, also known as backchanneling. So if I can't, if I can't have that conversation with you as a colleague and I backchannel, that's very toxic. To the organization and it doesn't really move us forward. So we talked about that. Am I going through the whole chart?

No, no, that's perfect. That's perfect. Yeah, thank you so much. That's great. I had a leader one time. Melissa's comment reminded me. So I left a meeting. I was really frustrated with somebody's, like, what they said and shared during that meeting just seemed really distracting and kind of disruptive to what we were working on. And so I told my leader about my frustrations about so person, right? My leader gave me the best coaching ever. He said, well, what did that person say when you brought it to their attention? And I was like, well, I haven't yet. And he's like, oh, okay, don't you think you should do that first? And I was like, noted. So that's, you know, that's not necessarily, you know, the exact example of what we're talking talking about today. But it is important for us to have the courage to, like, lean into the person that we need to talk about and not go talk about them, or, you know, go have that backchannel conversation or the meeting after the meeting, but just lean in. And so let me talk a little bit about courage. So I have found that leadership at its heart, or at its best, is really a matter of the heart. Does anybody in here have a really good French accent? Anybody? Rob? Okay. We will. Okay. So I love it. Croissant. I went to France last year with my family, and I tried forever to speak a couple French words, and my kids just mocked me constantly. So I try to not do that because I'm not good at it. But if you don't know, the word for heart actually comes from the— I'm sorry, the courage, which is the— we're talking about here, it actually comes from a French word for heart. And that French word for heart is this word, I think it's pronounced "coeur." So it's C-O-U-E-R. But you got to put that like French thing on it. So Rob, you want to try it? Her?

Her!

Yeah, there you go. So, I love it. That's amazing. I'm taking you on the road with me. So, Winston Churchill observed that courage is rightly esteemed the first of human qualities because it is the quality which actually guarantees all others. The point is very simple. Courage is both moral and practical. It's not sentiment or bravado. It's the willingness to face what is real, to invite challenge, and repair trust. And if you look at the story of every great leader from the business to the arts to education, government, sport, they seem to be written like in these moments of choices that this individual has where they ask themselves, do I just accept what is comfortable or Do I ask for and embrace what is true? And do I protect myself and my own comfort, or do I serve the enterprise and the organization? So we know that when courageous conversations are avoided, that situations can fester, misunderstandings can happen, relationships can be frayed, and if they're left unattended, issues can grow out of hand. Everyone suffers for it. And but courage really prevents that drift. It keeps relationships healthy, keeps them resilient. It ensures colleagues are capable of sustained excellence. And what I found is that really good leaders and good communicators have the courage to make these courageous conversations pretty easy. And courage is not about being combative. It's not about being confrontational. It's really just being willing to disrupt your comfort for the sake of greater alignment. So That's what we're gonna talk about. So let me talk about some times that we need courage. About 7 years ago, we, my wife and I adopted a couple of kids, Bella and Jeremiah, brother and sister. And Bella and Jeremiah come from a lot of trauma backgrounds. And so I don't know if you guys have any familiarity with trauma, but I did not. And it's been one of the most humbling learnings that I've had to ever go through. And part of what I learned about trauma is what happens inside of Bella and Jeremiah's brain when they get upset, when they get frustrated, when they get irritated. And one specialist I was talking to, they said that, "Hey, what you need to understand is that when this happens to Bella and Jeremiah, or they get upset," they said, "It's like the equivalent of this guy bursting in the back of this room here and all the doors are locked and the only way out is to go past the bear." Like, and they said, They said, you need to understand, like, what they're experiencing is you're thinking about that bear in a moment. But Bella and Jeremiah are actually worried about that bear all day long. Like, they're worried about that bear all day long. And is that bear going to show up?

Right.

And so that helps me a lot. Think about it. At times we need courage. And then they said another way to think about it is like if this guy fell through the ceiling right now, that would take a lot of courage. Like, we'd probably be a little bit scared. Is there a story here about snakes and ceilings? So, okay, okay. You're not a fan. And, but what I found is that I was doing all this learning around trauma and neuroscience and what was happening with my kids. And at the same time, I was doing a lot of these leadership workshops. And I realized that in the same way that Bella and Jeremiah, and I'm not trying to discount trauma, but in the same way that they fear, you know, like a lot of things that can happen, and it's this heightened level of anxiety. What I also found is that leaders actually fear conversations the same way. Like, we have kind of the same trepidation, same anxiety, same kind of nervousness around having these conversations with each other. So, um, so times we need courage, sometimes it's just doing the right thing at work, right? And it's not, not just going through the motions, but it's stepping back from that observation, stepping back from that experience, and going, hey, would things be better? Would things be even better? Would we be even stronger if I just took a moment and had a courageous conversation with that person? And many times the answer is yes, and just not accepting things because that's the way they've always been. So if you don't know, a couple things about how your brain works. You have this little thing in your brain called an amygdala. Now, have you guys ever heard of the phrase amygdala hijack? Okay, so amygdala hijack is where You experience something and your amygdala kind of takes over and you go from being this well-thought-out, very thoughtful, mindful human being to going to what many people call lizard brain where you can't talk, you can't formulate your thoughts, can't formulate your words. And a lot of it has to do with how you're experiencing this thing, right? So what happens is, is that I want you to think about your work experience experiences every day, right? Everything from driving into the parking lot, getting out of your car, walking into the office, seeing that colleague you see every morning, getting a cup of coffee, sitting down, opening your computer, opening your inbox, going through your emails, going to that meeting you have every Tuesday, seeing that one person you see. I want you to think about all those little micro moments. And I want you to realize that every single one of those moments, something's happening inside of you. So even right now, you're interpreting this moment either in somewhat of a positive way or somewhat of a negative way, right? And if you're interpreting that in a positive way, what happens is, is that your amygdala, you're releasing some positive neurotransmitters like dopamine, right? And for those of you that are familiar with social media, you know that there's a thing called dopamine hits where basically People will get on social media and what makes social media so addictive is every time you get a new follower, a new engagement, somebody likes your photo, all that, all that is a dopamine hit, right? And so that's why people find themselves just sucked into it all the time because it feels good, right? On the opposite side of the spectrum is you have these negative experiences. And when you have these negative experiences, that same amygdala will release things like cortisol which basically is a stress hormone. Right? And part of what you've got to learn how to do is not only to be aware of this but to also recognize that some of it also depends on your choice on how you perceive things, right? I always say that you're always going to find what you're looking for. So, in other words, like even this morning. Like if you come this morning and you're like, "Hey, I'm going to come to this, you know, this retreat this week with communicators and I'm going to walk away with some great information, some new skills, some new relationships. Like, my guess is that's what you found, right? But if you came here and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe I have to go to that retreat." Like, you know, I'm not sure there's not anybody in the room. But like, if it was more of like a regret or like a burden and like, "It's going to be a bad use of my time and I'm going to really like dislike all of that." You probably found that, right? Like, you're always going to find what you're looking for. And so sometimes, if you can actually reframe even these conversations, it's going to help you be better. Because if you look at them as a negative thing, then they're probably going to be negative, right? But if you actually think of them as a positive thing, then many times that's how they're going to show up. Alright, so let's talk about what kind of leader you are. So back in the '80s, there was a movie that came out written by author Stephen King. Movie was called Cujo. Anybody ever watch this movie, Cujo? Alright, so if you don't know the story about Cujo, Cujo was actually at one point in time this like lovable Saint Bernard, right? Very lovable. And then he got, you know what happened to him? He got bit by a rabid bat. All right. And the bat gave Cujo rabies. And then Cujo becomes this monstrous, terrorizing, murderous dog. Right. And the whole book's around this dog. Right. Crazy, crazy story. Right. So that's Cujo. On the other end of the spectrum, you have Lassie. I'm sure some of y'all at some point in your life have encountered something related to Lassie. Lassie actually goes all the way back to the '30s. So the original Lassie stories are back in the 1930s. And then there were books, there were children's series, there were TV series, there were movies. For some of you younger generation, you can like go to YouTube and find all about Lassie if you want to. But Lassie, on the other hand, was like this lovable, dog that everybody enjoyed seeing. He was always helping. He was always rescuing people. Everybody just really, really liked seeing Lassie, right? Lassie was super, super nice, right? Cujo was super, super tough, right? So you got really, really nice, really, really tough. I will tell you, as a rule of thumb, in working with just like thousands and thousands of leaders, I find that most of us are usually more like Lassie or more like Cujo, right? Let me help you out here. So, the more like Lassie leaders are ones where you like everybody, you want everybody to like you. You're like really good friends with people. You're like create this great environment with everybody you work with. And like everybody just likes seeing you coming, right? The Cujo's, the ones that are more like Cujo's are like you You maybe at one time was like maybe somebody that really people really like, but if something happened, maybe you got bit by a rabid bat, I don't know. But now like you get really good results, you get a lot of impact, you make a lot of movement, like you get things done and there's like a wake of dead bodies in your path, right? So here's the thing, I don't want you to point at anybody, but my guess is that like you're probably like, probably relate to one or more of like Lassie and Cujo, right? And I usually do this quiz where I ask leaders and I'll say, hey, what do you think is actually the more effective form of leadership? Do you think it's better and more effective to be more like Lassie, nice? Or do you think it's better and more effective to be like Cujo? Okay, like tough, right? And I'm not saying that you need to have a wake of dead bodies. I'm just saying like, Is it better as a leader to be really nice, or is it better as a leader to be really tough? Okay, so that's the question. Now, my guess is if I polled you all, you probably have some answers. If you're anything like most audiences, most audiences, about 70%, 80% would say nice, and others would say tough, right? I'm not going to ask you for opinion, but can you just give me a nod of your head and saying that you have an opinion? Like, do you have an opinion on which one's right? Well, here's the secret, is that your opinion's wrong. Is that the answer is actually both. Answer's both. And this was really hard for me because I'm actually more like Lassie, right? And I'm like, I can't believe that person's so tough, right? And I would be a little critical, a little bit judgmental. But Zinger Falkman did some research, and what they were looking at was which leaders were actually most effective. Most effective not only at getting results but most effective at creating great cultures, creating great places to work, most effective at driving engagement of team members, retention. And what they realized, what they came to conclusion was, is that it wasn't the nice leaders and it wasn't the tough leaders. It was the ones who actually figured out how to be both. And if you will for a minute, think back over your whole life. Think about leaders and bosses you've had, maybe parents, maybe coaches, people in your life who— maybe it's teachers— people in your life that you didn't just like, but you really respected them. All right? My guess is, is that if you think about the people in your life that had the biggest impact on you, not just people that made you feel good, but people that had the biggest impact on who you are today, there's probably a really good chance that when you think about them as a whole person, you probably could describe them as both nice and tough. They weren't always somebody that told you everything that you wanted to hear, right? So that's the nice. But they also weren't somebody that you were scared of constantly, right? They were somebody that they knew that they would tell you or you knew that they would tell you when something wasn't good. But they also created a great relationship with you, they created a great dynamic with you. You felt good about interacting with them. And so it was a both/and, right? And so part of what we need to do as communicators is figure out how do we show up each day and try to be both. So if you're more like Lassie, the invitation is to try to be a little more tough, right? And if you're a little bit more like Cujo, the invitation is to be a little bit more nice, right? So that's the invitation. Now, let's talk about this. Which part of courageous conversation feels most challenging to you right now. So if you had to go out right now and have some of these conversations, what would feel most challenging? Alright, majority of you responded. Most of you are saying just simply trying to figure out the right words, right? You're not uncommon. Most audiences would say something similar. And some of you say, hey, how do I even start the conversation? How do I make sure I stay calm? How do I make sure I hear the feedback? And then following up? All those are important pieces of it. We're going to help you with all, every one of these. And I'll make sure that we spend a little bit more time on using the right words, since that seems to be an important topic. Okay. So, and words matter. Words matter, not only what you say, but how you say it, when you say it, how fast you say it, what volume you say it, like, it all matters, right? You got you guys can appreciate this as communicators, it all matters. So, so we'll spend some time on that. So let me talk about this whole idea of conversations. So I'll share with you a couple of quotes that have been really impactful for me. One is, the bond of all companionship, whether in marriage or in friendship, is conversation. That's from Oscar Wilde. And there's another one I think many of you have heard. I know Melissa likes this one is the single biggest problem with communication is Illusion that has taken place. That's from George Bernard Shaw. And the reason I want to share this with you is my, my wife and I, we both are, you know, you heard Melissa read my embellished bio. I don't know who wrote it. And, you know, like, we're both considered leaders, like, in our community, like, we're both considered communicators. And, but what's interesting is how different my wife and I are, right? And one of the things that happened was in 20— so for most of our marriage, what our lives look like was we either, we either both worked different shifts. And so one of us was like home, and one of us was working and like taking care of kids. And so we juggled that back and forth, right? Or there came this season where I started traveling professionally, and she stayed home with the kids. And I did that for about 10 or 15 years. And so there was a lot of just space there. And then something happened in 2020, this little thing called COVID, right? And all of a sudden, I'm home a lot, right? All of a sudden, things— the world's changing. And I actually went from traveling a lot to in 2023, we actually started working together. Okay? So, we went from spending most of our marriage like— like I would parachute in on the weekends. We'd spend 3 or 4 days together and then I go back out, you know, on the week. To all of a sudden like we're together every day, all day, right? So, this happened in like 2023. And what happened was is we're working together. We both think we are pretty good at communicating. We both think we're pretty good at conversations. We both think we're, you know, decent leaders. And but what we started to understand more than ever in 2023 was actually how different we are. Okay. And I don't know if you guys ever experienced before, but like, I was married to this person. And I'm like, hey, like, I thought you were like me. And then I realized, like, we're complete opposite people, right? So, let me give you some examples. So, my wife, she is entrepreneur. She's a former ICU nurse. Anybody— Do you know any ICU nurses? Okay. Like, they have a stereotype. Okay? So, it exists for a reason. Okay? So, that's my wife. I'm a coach, consultant, speaker. Has our own stereotypes, right? Any of you guys familiar with the DiSC profile?

Okay.

My wife is like— If you got a book on the DiSC, and they said, "Hey, show me a person's face that was a D," my wife's picture would show up. Okay? She's like dominant, direct, like a high red. Every personality test that has like the red color in it, like it's like her only color. Okay? So like, like that's her. Alright? My DISC is Steadiness, blue for those of you familiar with that. What about the Enneagram? You guys familiar with the Enneagram? Okay. My wife's Enneagram is the Challenger, the 8. Okay? I am a 3, Achiever. Some guys are like, "Okay, I'm starting to see what's going on here." Any of you guys familiar with the Entrepreneurial Operating System? Ever heard of that? It's a neat little model that a lot of small businesses use, but my wife is considered the visionary. I'm considered the integrator. My wife is very decisive. She's very direct. I'm analytical. I'm indirect. My wife uses very few words. I use lots of words, okay? My wife is very big picture. I am detail-oriented. My wife's philosophy in life is ready, fire, aim. Okay, I am plan and let's plan some more. Okay, and my wife is more of a Cujo. I'm more the Lassie. Okay, so you get the picture here. So it's 2023, we're working together, and all of a sudden I'm like, like, why, why are we like having all these like challenges and stuff? Like, what is this? And so we decided like, hey, we got to get some like extra help with this. So we went to see a marriage therapist. You're like, okay, here's the title of the session, right? So, I went to see a marriage therapist and I learned so many things from that person that helped me. Her name was Emily. And she helped me really understand so many things that were so helpful for our relationship. But what it actually helped me with even more was not even just my relationship. It actually helped me with this work because I started to realize that the things that are— were happening in my relationship were actually happening in many work settings as well. And so I wanna share some of my learnings with you and help you understand what some of my big takeaways were. So the biggest thing that Emily helped me understand was that when you're trying to stay in conversation, when you're trying to stay in dialogue with someone, when you're trying to have this kind of courageous conversation with somebody, you need to understand that there are 4 enemies who are working to sabotage those conversations, right? So if you have awareness about those 4 enemies, that's a great start 'cause you can always go into a conversation before you even have it and know that those are the 4 things that you're trying to either avoid or defeat, okay? So let me share with you what those 4 enemies are. So the 4 enemies of courageous conversations are this. Number 1 is there's 2 of them when you are the initiator of the conversation and then there's 2 of them when you are the recipient of the conversation, right? So I want you to think about something that happens at work and all of a sudden you've gotta have the conversation with somebody. So the first enemy you've gotta avoid It's just criticism, right? And here's what I mean by criticism. Criticism is when you are not just addressing an observation, you're not just addressing a situation, but you actually are forming a negative opinion or feeling about the person, okay? And so that winds up being conveyed in the conversation. So, that's criticism. The second one, you you have to avoid is similar but a little bit different, and it's what's called contempt, okay? And contempt is when you actually don't just have an opinion, you've got this belief that someone or something that someone did is actually absurd, either incompetent or beneath dignity, right? And what happens is, is that if you have contempt for that person, it will be conveyed in the conversation, right? So you need to know that if you're the initiator of the conversation, the first 2 things you've got to do is make sure that you do not allow criticism or contempt to be conveyed in what you're— what you're going to talk about. So, that's the first 2 things. The second 2 things are when someone tries to have a conversation with you. And the first one of those is defensiveness. And defensiveness is when someone shares something with you and instead of just stepping back and saying, "Hey, thank you for that. That's something for me to consider." Your immediate reaction is to try to justify or explain why or why something did or didn't happen, right? So it's not making space for that to actually be even a possibility. It's this compelling urge that I've got to explain and defend what I did and why and how I did it, right? That's defensiveness. And it's shifting the blame onto someone or something else instead of just taking a chance to say, hey, thank you, I'll consider that, right? So that's defensiveness. The 4th one is actually called stonewalling. And you're like, "Does that really show up in work?" Well, it does. And let me help you understand what it looks like. Stonewalling is in personal relationships. It's when someone just completely withdraws or shuts down. But in a work relationship, it looks like people ghosting you, not showing up for the meeting you scheduled, not returning emails for a couple weeks. Like, it shows up in those kind of forms, right? And you're like, You're like, how does he know that happens, right? It happens everywhere, right? So know that that stonewalling is many times happening because someone tried to have a courageous conversation and that is their professional reaction to it, right? So just like in personal relationships, these things show up in work relationships. And so the first thing we have to do as professionals, as leaders and communicators, is be aware of these and make sure that we are not only being aware of them, but know how we actually can defeat them. So here's a question for you. Once you think about your world, your ecosystem, your universe that you work in, which of the 4 do you think shows up most commonly? And this could be maybe in yourself, maybe it's in others, maybe it's collectively as a group, however you want to frame the question. But just give us some feedback on which one shows up the most. Most people have responded, and it looks like the overwhelming majority would say defensiveness. And so I'm going to suggest that you're either thinking, hey, that's also two things. One, that's how maybe sometimes I respond to the conversation, or in my experience, when I've tried to have a conversation, that usually is the response that the other person person has with me. So either one of those will tackle it. I will tell you kind of the pro tip out of the gate is that one of the best ways to lower the risk of someone being defensive is to avoid those first two things, which is criticism and contempt, right? If someone, if someone approaches a conversation, and especially I'll just use myself as an example, if you're approaching me with a courageous conversation, and I do not sense criticism or contempt, but I feel other things in that moment, I'm much more— I'm less likely to be defensive. Does that make sense? Now, I've got to take ownership of not being defensive. I'm just telling you that you're going to reduce my likelihood of being defensive if you're approaching it without those two things. So that'll be some right out of the gate. So let's work through all four of these. And hopefully by the time we get through this, this first session before we take a break, I'm gonna try to take a break around 10:30 if you're you're wondering, is you'll have some tools and some skills on how to best defeat all 4 of these. Okay. So I'm going to start with this quote. I think it's by Abraham Lincoln, the internet attributes to him. So we'll assume it is, internet's always right. I do not like this man or that man, I must get to know him better. Okay, love that quote. Anytime I think about settings where like, I'm like, man, that person really bothers me. I always remind this quote, I'm like, you know what, I probably should get to know I know you a little bit better. You know, because something there, there's something we can connect on. So, we'll start there and we're going to go to criticism. And we're going to talk about how to defeat criticism. And I'm going to surprise you because what I'm going to ask you to do is that the way you actually defeat criticism is by taking what you're trying to say and formulate and converting it into what is usually considered more of a complaint. Now, I know whatever background you have, it could be like, "Hey, people told me not to ever complain. Like, I'm not supposed to be a complainer. Like, my parents told me not to be a complainer." And so just for today, just know that the words we're using, what we're trying to say is criticism is saying something one way and complaint is saying something in a more effective way. Just for today, okay? So criticism is when I have conversations in a way that shows up and it conveys to the person that I've got negative feelings, negative opinions about them. A complaint is a very structured way that I'm going to share my observations and feedback without conveying any negative feelings or opinions I have. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna talk about the situation, the observation that I had, okay, the experience. I'm gonna talk about how it made me feel or the impact on the situation or the organization. And then I'm going to talk about solutions, right? I'm going to make sure that nowhere in that moment am I conveying a negative opinion or feeling about the individual, right? So this is how you defeat criticism. Now, let me give you some like— these are probably like extreme examples, but they at least kind of bring to surface what I'm talking about. So example number 1 is criticism would sound like this: Why can't you remember anything? I told you how to do this 1,000 times and you still didn't do it correctly. You're always so careless. Right? Now, would anybody in the room feel good if that was said to you? Okay, probably not, right? But the complaint is, hey, I'm upset that I don't have the document I need for this project. Could you please do this today? Now, just in a word or phrase, tell me the biggest difference between the two. What do you think?

Criticism, you're addressing the person.

Yep.

You're addressing the action.

I love it. It's great. Charles nailed it. Criticism, you're addressing the person. Complaint, you're addressing the action, the experience, the observation. That's the biggest difference, okay? I'll give you another kind of extreme example. Why do you keep avoiding my emails and phone calls? I always come last on your list. Are you avoiding me? Notice how personal it is. Notice how much it's pointed at the person versus, hey, I'm hurt that you haven't responded to my emails and phone calls yet. I understand things come up, but it makes me feel that our working relationship is not a priority. Can you find some time to respond to my email today?

Right?

Now, there's still a little bit of like, "Hey, it's still direct to the person because you know that that is the person that's not responding." So there's not a way to like completely eliminate that. But it's also not about jumping to a conclusion about why the person's not responding to your email, right? So it's— a lot of it is how you say things and making sure you frame it in the right way to help reduce criticism and reduce the contempt.

Okay?

Now, that's how we defeat criticism. I'll recap this in a little bit. But before I go on to the next one, does anybody have any questions or comments about this whole idea of defeating criticism?

Yes. Yep.

Yep. Yep. So, so use this, and I'm thrilled you brought this up. Is it Peggy? My sister's name is Peggy. So what if you use a different word than upset or hurt? What if it was like, hey, I'm confused, or I'm puzzled? Like, the reason is what we have found is that it's still helpful for the person to know that their action did create an impact, right? So it's still helpful for you to have some sort of word. And we're gonna talk about this a little bit later today is like, how do I actually build up what I call like my emotional vocabulary, where I've got words to pull from, and they need to feel good to you. Like if you— if hurt and upset are not the right words, I definitely don't use them. But there needs to be a word that conveys to that person that what you did did impact either me or somebody, right? So hang on to that, because we'll come back to it. But I appreciate you shining a light on it. And you definitely want to find a word that works for you. And we'll give you some words a little bit later on. But if you just address the action, and you don't tie it to how it's impacted, the conversation itself is not going to be as effective, right? That's the point I want to try to make. So thank you for highlighting that, Peggy. Let's keep moving. And we'll come back to this in a little bit. So I want to go to the next thing. And the next thing is around contempt. So I was telling you about just my journey with learning around trauma. If any of you guys want to learn more about trauma, the best book I've read is this book called The Body Keeps the Score. It's the whole idea that things that happen to you never really leave you. Your body kind of experiences them, lives them. And so, but what the book taught me more than anything is that when my kids— I'll use them to start with— when my kids do something that seemed really odd, when it seems atypical, when it seems not like a normal, like like neurodivergent behavior. When I first became an adoptive parent, my reaction was, what's wrong with you? Right? Like, what's, what's wrong with you? Why aren't you doing this the way that like a neurotypical kid would do it? Right? And I realized how wrong and how damaging that question was. And I've shifted my language more, not just for my kids, but for anybody is, hey, what's happened to you? Like, let me give you an example of this. How many of you guys have ever had a colleague show up at work and you've worked with them for a really long time and then— but you notice that something's just off about them today. Like something's just off, right? So, maybe they kind of show up weird in a meeting, show up weird in an email exchange, something like that. So, the best question you can have with that person is not, "What's wrong with you?" The best question you have is, "Hey, has something happened? Like what's happened to you?" Right? Because there's a likelihood that if someone's not showing up, they're not doing something in the most effective way, something has impacted them, right? If you've got a history and a track record of that not being the norm, then something maybe is going on there. So the tip around contempt is that what you want to do is to always assume positive intent. So the way you defeat contempt is to always assume positive intent. Okay, defeat contempt by assuming positive intent. And contempt can look like things. So contempt can look like sarcasm. It could look like a little mockery. It can look like mimicking, even offensive body language at times. If you guys ever had that coworker that sighs or roll their eyes, you know, that stuff. I know that doesn't happen at UT, but other places I go. So all that can be like contempt. And what you need to appreciate, and I appreciate, I remember a word Melissa shared earlier, is that Part of today is not fixing something. It's just making sure that we put in place skills and cultural things that are going to help us also prevent— she used the word toxicity. Remember that? So contempt is toxic because ultimately it is always perceived as a form of disrespect. And if you talk to most relationship specialists, they will tell you that it is the number one predictor of failed relationships. If contempt enters relationship, even at work, it will be likely that that relationship's not going to be successful, okay? So, you want to try to figure out how do I avoid contempt. I'll tell you guys, there was a Wharton Business School study back in 2011. And I found this really interesting. So, what they did is they set up all these people in the study and they would did this project together. And they then gave each of the participants feedback on their work. And they had 4 different categories of feedback on what kind of feedback they received. And what was interesting is the first category was what they called just kind of neutral feedback, and it was just kind of like an appreciation gesture. It was like, hey, thank you for what you submitted, right? That was considered neutral. So it was like very benign, nothing really meaningful to it. The second group was what they called angry feedback, and that's where the person said, hey, your work is really starting to anger me, right? I'm sure you didn't like that, Peggy. So like really starting to anger me, right? Right? And the third feedback was contemptuous. And this was the feedback where the person said, hey, you know, I expected really quick thinking, but so far I haven't seen it. Okay? And then the fourth feedback was failure, where they literally graded the person objectively on a numerical scale and then gave them that feedback in the form of a number. Right? And they basically said, hey, you got a 3.8 out of 10. Like, you did not pass this. Right? Here's what was interesting. The big aha from the study is that the one category, the people that received the contemptuous feedback, were the only ones who showed increased aggression. Okay? They were the only ones. The ones who got the angry feedback didn't. The ones who got the failure feedback didn't. The ones who got the neutral feedback obviously didn't. But I was really surprised. The only one that resulted in the other person having like some increased aggression was when the person felt contempt in the way that they said, described their project, right? So, we have an opportunity and responsibility as communicators to make sure that we don't show up with contempt. And the way you do is by always assuming positive intent. I'm gonna come back to the whole motive thing in a little bit. But one of the things we're gonna move on to is this whole idea of defensiveness. And I really like this idea, Henry Cloud's a great, author, communicator, really does a lot of work in this space. And he says, instead of getting defensive, just say, hey, thanks for letting me know your thoughts. I'll consider them, right? And I have learned, and I'm not great at it, but I learned to try that as much as I possibly can remember it. And it has helped me so much. Because, you know, let's just say, like, after this presentation, I will definitely ask, you know, Melissa, I'll ask Yvette, I'll ask Ellie for feedback, and I definitely want it. But let's say I didn't do that. If I didn't ask for it, and let's just say that, you know, they came up and said, hey, you know, here's some things you did well, here's some things you should have done differently, right? The defensive part of me might try to explain, like, here's why I did that, here's this and this, right? But that's not the point. The point is just to step back and go, hey, you know what, thank you for that. Let me consider that. I appreciate your thoughts, right? And that would be the more effective way to manage that. It doesn't mean that what that person is sharing with you is accurate or best. But if I don't do that, the problem is, is that if I get defensive, then I'm less likely to get that feedback in the future, right? But if you're open to it and you're like, "Hey, thank you for that. I appreciate you sharing that. I'll consider that." That's going to invite more of that down the road. Especially if they see you make adjustments on that later on. Or even start circle back to them and close the loop. So, The way you defeat defensiveness is by always having a growth mindset, okay? You defeat defensiveness by having a growth mindset. The best way I can talk about defensiveness is defensiveness shows up when we make excuses or we redirect the conversation to focus on someone else's shortcomings or we point out the mistakes of the person giving us that feedback or we blame somebody else for it. Or we change the subject to what we did well, right? Well, I know you wanna talk about this error, but let me tell you all this good stuff I do, right? Those are all forms of defensiveness. And it's easy to feel like we've been attacked, but what you ultimately need to understand is that defensiveness will shut down that conversation and you'll be less likely to get that feedback in the future. It's gonna create frustration. So growth mindset is this, is growth mindset is approaching your work every day, all day, with these 2 questions is, "What was my contribution to this? And what can I learn from this?" And it's always having this idea of like, there's got to be a spirit of curiosity, there's got to be a spirit of humility. And always realize that there was something you maybe could have done better, differently next time, etc. Right? So, that's a growth mindset is how can I get better? How can I grow from this? And I'm going to open myself up to people, sharing from them, right? So, that's the idea behind a growth mindset and that's how you defeat defensiveness. And again, I'll come back and recap some of this. Now, we'll talk about the 4th one which is stonewalling. And I love this. Words may sting but silence is what breaks the heart. And if you've ever had, you know, a colleague who just weirdly like doesn't respond to your emails or doesn't show up for meetings anymore or that kind of stuff or kind of avoid you in the hallways. Like that's part of what— part of what that looks like. It doesn't sound like that's a big of an issue here. So, I'll go through this a little bit faster. The way we defeat stonewalling, if you're the one experiencing stonewalling, like you're the one doing stonewalling, is by literally giving yourself a break. Like giving yourself a break and space. Because what happens is the reason you stonewall is it's actually this idea that like you've had this kind of like emotional flooding and I'm doing this stonewalling to either do 2 things. I'm either doing it to hurt I'm trying to hurt the other person, or I'm doing it as a self-preservation. So like I'm avoiding the situation, or I'm trying to like get back at that person because of what they did to me, right? Neither of those things are helpful or healthy or effective. And so what we wanna do is to make sure that that's not showing up in our professional careers. It leaves both people feeling defeated, problems unresolved. So how can you take a break? Honestly, just imagine a place that makes you feel calm and safe. Practice focusing on your breath. And there's some good tips there at the bottom. So that's how you defeat stonewalling. So I want to recap the 4, and I'm gonna give you a chance to talk about this with your neighbors. So you defeat criticism by turning criticism into complaint. You defeat contempt by assuming positive intent. You defeat defensiveness by having a growth mindset. And you defeat stonewalling by taking a break if you need it. So those are your 4. So here's a group discussion I'd like for you guys to have. Don't worry too much about the times, we'll adjust as needed. But what I want you to do is in your small groups, so groups of like 2 or 3, is just share an example of where you have allowed one of those 4 enemies to maybe limit your effectiveness. So you've either given criticism, conveyed contempt, maybe gotten defensive, maybe stonewalled. Like you've been the person responsible for one of those 4. And Using the example that you share and knowing some of the things we've talked about today, what could you have done differently? If you had that to do over again, if you had to repeat, what might you have done differently to make— to not limit yourself and to make that situation a little bit better? So, have that conversation. I'll give you about 3 or 4 minutes in the interest of time and then we'll pull you together and recap some of the things that you share. 2 more minutes. One more minute.

30 seconds.

All right, 10, 9. 5, 4, 2, 1. So in the interest of time, I'm not going to do what I was going to do with some expanded discussion. But I do want to make space. Does anybody have any just things that they want to share with the room around that exercise, like any ahas or questions or questions for me before I move on? I'm going to take us to break here in a minute. Many members of my team, we talk about assuming positive intent. Yeah, good. Awesome. And talk about when there is a conflict— probably too extreme of a word— but when there are moments, it's like, can we please assume that the person who came to this is coming to it with the right intentions? Yeah, yeah. So good, so good. Yes, go ahead.

Will you also address how to deal with colleagues who are on the other side and they are stonewalling?

Yes, yeah, yeah, a little bit later we'll talk about what are the most common reactions to when you're trying to get feedback, even if you're like the master level skill person at delivering it, like you're still gonna get, you know, some opportunities and we'll talk about how to best approach it and do all that. So yeah, great question. Yes.

You talk a lot about how it's a different dynamic now from being in person versus all the virtual that we have, about how we have to communicate a lot of this in writing and how you phrase things versus in writing versus just a general conversation.

It's a lot different approach. Yes, 100%. We're going to talk a little about that too, about even the forum for the conversation matters. So like, you know, are we in person? Are we on Zoom, Teams? Are we doing a phone call? Is it all electronic? Is it all digital? You know, what does that look like? How to make sure we, we think about those things. So any other just closing thoughts before I wrap us up here? So let me share with you the answer to the question about my t-shirt. So, alright, so 2024, 2024 movie came out, I think it was on Amazon called Roadhouse. Did anybody see the 2024 Roadhouse? Jake Gyllenhaal, Rob? Okay, should have known you saw it. Okay.

Yeah.

So that was 2024. If you guys are from my generation, the greatest generation, you all remember in 1989, the best version of this movie came out. Little-known actor again, Patrick Swayze, one of the best, best movies ever. Actually, it's not. It's a really bad movie. But it's an iconic movie, right? Like, I made my kids watch it and they were like, Dad, this is horrible. It's horrible. But it's iconic. So the story, if you don't know, is there was this bar in the Midwest called— Rob, what's the name of the bar? Do you remember?

Double Deuce.

Double Deuce. Thank you. Who said it? Yeah, you're right here. Yeah. Double Deuce. So this bar in the Midwest was Double Deuce. It had this owner. And this bar had attracted this really rough crowd. And they were just always causing fights. They were always breaking stuff. And the regular good patrons didn't want come there anymore. So the bar owner recruited— I didn't know you had like a recruiting pipeline— but recruited this like expert world-renowned bouncer named Dalton, okay, who was Patrick Swayze, right? So Dalton came, and his actual title was not even bouncer. Do you remember what he's called? He was called the cooler. Thank you, Jay. So he was the cooler. He had a team of bouncers. He was like the bouncer manager. Okay, so he was the bouncer manager, and they already had a bunch of bouncers in the bar who weren't like doing their job effectively, so they hired Dalton. Dalton also bought his— brought his best friend Wade Garrett, who was played by a famous actor. Anybody remember? Sam Elliott. Thank you. And Sam Elliott and Patrick Swayze, they go to the Midwest, and one of the best scenes in the movie is Patrick is giving his management philosophies to his team. Okay. Now, I'm gonna come back to that. What I'll also tell you is that fast forward about 9 years later, this movie inspired me to become a bouncer. Okay. So 1997, this is me. Okay. I was a nightclub bouncer. I actually worked, I don't know if you guys remember any of the nightclubs in Knoxville Old City a long time ago, like the Underground, places like that. So yeah. So yeah, maybe ran into you there, Tommy. So yeah, she's like, I thought he looked familiar. Yeah, yeah. So that was 1997. I did— I worked in nightclubs for a long time, and that was part of my story. But the movie inspired me, and some of it carried over into my management philosophy, and here's why. So Patrick, when he's given his like management philosophy to his bouncers, He says, "I've only got 3 rules." Anybody remember his 3 rules? First one was— that's the second one. So first one was— you're with me though, I love you, Rob. We're like this. So his first one was always expect the unexpected. Like, always expect the unexpected. Never assume you know what the other guy's gonna do. Always expect the unexpected. I was like, "All right, noted." Second thing was, was take it outside. He said never start a fight in in the bar, always take it outside. And his third rule was the most thought-provoking. Do you remember what it was? Be nice. And like, that makes sense for us in this setting, right? But you could imagine the look on his bouncer's face when he was like, be nice? What are you talking about? Like, is this Disney? Like, what? And they're like, be nice? He was like, yeah. And they're like, well, what if the guy's like mean to us? And he's like, be nice. He's like, well, what if they like, you know, yell at us? He's like, be nice. He's like, what if we have to escort him outside? He was like, get some help, escort him outside, and be nice, right? Now, you do realize that later on in the movie, they switch gears and they're no longer nice, and they're crashing skulls and doing all kinds of stuff, right? It's incredible. At one point in the movie, it's completely not HR appropriate. They like— I wouldn't tell you. OK. I'm going to get fired. Career-limiting move. OK. But here's the thing I would tell you. There's another line in the movie that's one of my favorite management philosophies. And it's Patrick goes— he was teaching some guys like some moves. And he goes, hey, he goes, if you take the biggest guy in the world and you shatter his knee, he'll drop like a rock. So I use that leadership every day, right? So, but my, my, my whole idea around the leadership philosophy is this, is that be nice until it's time to be tough. Okay, so that's my leadership philosophy. You guys take 15-minute break. We'll come back.