Afraid of Open Water Swimming? How to Go From Panic to Confident with Author Hilary Topper

All right. Welcome back to the Find Your Edge podcast. I am your host, Coach Chris Newport, and I have a guest who is back again with another book. Hillary Topper, welcome back to the show. Another book about triathlon. I love it. How's it going?

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Chris. Oh, it's going good. It's, it's a little bit, it's a little busy over here, but otherwise it's good.

I cannot imagine. Okay, so this is your 3rd book. The first one was Couch to Triathlete, right?

It was called, yeah, From Couch Potato to Endurance Athlete: A Portrait of a Non-Athletic Triathlete. That was more of a memoir of a 10-year journey from me, like, not doing anything until I was like 53, and then getting into triathlons and all the adventures. Everything in between with life and all that.

Yeah, that's so cool. Okay. And then the second book, which we'll be sure to link to below, that was what we had our session on. So, which was a great book. So tell us about that and then we're going to get to the—

Yeah. So that was called Unlocking the Triathlon and that was the beginner's guide to competing in a triathlon. And it gives you like all the nuts and bolts you need. You know, besides having a coach, of course.

Right, right.

You know, but getting— but having that in your head.

Well, we all have to start somewhere and we're all— the natural start is not always gonna be, and probably most people will not always be with a coach.

You know, it's interesting, Chris, because when I first started in triathlon, my running buddy, you know, we had run the Brooklyn Half Marathon and she said, I don't wanna do this anymore. And I said, let's do a triathlon. Not knowing that it was a swim, bike, run, not knowing that I had to learn how to swim, you know, all of that. So, you know, at that time she was like, oh, we have to get a coach. There's just, there's no questions about it. And I thought that was like the norm to get a coach.

Yeah.

But as I'm learning and as I'm seeing, and as I'm volunteering at some of these races, I'm realizing a lot of people don't have coaches. They just wing it.

Yeah.

You know, they'll sign up for a 70.3 and that'll be their first triathlon. One and done, you know? Yes.

Or one, and then they call us. That's when they're like, okay, that was really hard. I got my rear end kicked and I don't want it to be that hard. And because this is so challenging and rewarding, and that's when, that's when they call us and like, please, can you help me not die again?

And they look, some of them look really like they were gonna die after like a sprint triathlon. Like, oh my God.

My preferred mode of triathlon is off-road and I've even run into experienced on-road triathlons at an off-road triathlon and they're like, I've never mountain biked before. I'm like, what? So, you know, but we all, I, I don't know. I, I think sometimes when you fumble through things, that's when you're like, Oh, okay. Maybe I need a little support. But again, when I started in the sport, I was going, I was pulling all the books off the shelves, like diving into all the training plans and like, what do I wear? I mean, you know, so your book is so valuable for everybody.

There was so many questions.

Yes, for sure.

100%. And the thing about the book that really makes me very proud is that it talks to anybody. Like, anybody could pick it up and say, oh, I could do a triathlon. Like, it's not just for these, you know, buff athletes, you know. It could— anybody could do it.

Totally. I, I 100% agree. And if you are listening to this and you are like, oh, I have a neighbor who I would love to do a triathlon with, but she pooh-poohs the bike, or he doesn't think that he can swim, or whatever like that.

This—

that book is 100% for them.

Yeah, it is.

It is totally possible.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I wish that was around when I was— Right. Yes, I know.

I wish I had my own book.

That would have been okay.

Yes, absolutely. Okay. And your third book, this is the most recent one. It like literally just hit Just hit the bookstores.

Show it off. And it's called Unlocking the Open Water Swim, and it's the beginner's guide to success in open water events. So this book is for triathletes, right, who maybe want to do a 70.3 or a full Ironman, but they feel like they're, you know, this is the weakest leg and they're not really sure how to do it. Or maybe it's a pool swimmer who says, you know, I'd like to go tap into the open water and do something a little bit, you know, outside my comfort zone. Or it's for a beginner triathlete who, you know, is doing a sprint triathlon. I do have training plans in here.

Oh, cool.

And the training plans are more for, you know, the Half Ironman, Ironman, And, you know, 5K swim, 10K swim.

Ooh, okay. Going big.

I love it. Yeah, going big. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, and the thing about the open water for me, you know, I just started swimming at 53. So, you know, I've only been swimming about 10, 11 years at this point. And there's something to me when I go into the open water, It's so special. Like, I feel like there's this freedom that I don't get anywhere else. I mean, I get it a little bit on the bike, but this is much more like you could just go anywhere. There's no black lines. You could just do what you love to do and get out there and be in your happy place.

Yeah, totally.

But that's not, that's not the case for a lot of people.

No, I think that that is, I mean, I'd have to look at some of the data, but I would argue that that's probably one of the number one reasons why people don't get into triathlon.

100% agree with you. 100% agree that they're nervous, that they panic, that maybe they didn't have access to the water when they were growing up. Maybe something happened to them as a little child. You know, I have a story in the book about this woman, Melissa, who was actually in my swim group. She was in my course.

Yeah.

And I didn't know this at the time. She told me this later, a couple of years later.

Yeah.

That she, you know, was a swimmer as a child, but when she went with her husband on a vacation, they were— he talked her into going diving, and she had a panic attack with the tube in her mouth, you know, when she went down. And she would never get— she wouldn't go back in the water. And, you know, and then she— I mean, it wasn't really, you know, made me feel good. She joined my group and we started out really, really slow, like behind the ropes, you know, just get used to the water. And every time that we met, we built up to the point where at the end of the session everybody swam a mile. And she was— I can't even believe how kick-butt she was. She was fantastic. That's so cool. swimming fast. And, you know, you'd never know that she had this fear inside of her, you know?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, and that's why I do what I do, because you see grown adults who are literally terrified like a child. And that is a very vulnerable place to be. I mean, I know you were saying get out of your comfort zone, That's terrifying for a lot of people to, to be like, I literally feel like I might die.

Yeah.

And I usually am joking with people like, please don't say that. But that, that's how they, that's how they feel. Like it's, it can be incredibly intense and terrifying to go from that to holy smokes, I just did a triathlon.

Absolutely.

In the open water. It is next-level, mind-blowing, life-transforming.

Absolutely.

That you have to do it. Like, you have to get Hillary's book. You have to find a group that you can train with and get over it because you can. And it is— it's so transformative.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

So, you know, so in the book, right, I talk about, you know, going from the pool to the open water, like what kind of drills you should do in the pool. You know, things like that. Like, I get very granular. I mean, I do talk also about some zones and stuff like that and how to pick up speed. But then I also go into like adventure swimming versus competitive swimming, right?

Yeah.

And I really enjoy the adventure swimming. Like, I, I just did last year, I swam around Mackinac Island in Michigan. It was an 8.2 mile swim, okay? And it's, it's current, like, you know, it's in a lake, but you know, you're getting the current because there's a lot of, um, the big Great Lakes, they're, they're, they're next to each other, you know.

Yeah.

I think it's, you know, so, so you get that like turbulence going. And, um, that was an adventure swim, you know, it wasn't timed. I mean, they did say you have up to a certain amount of time to finish it. But it was plenty. I mean, I think it was like they gave, they gave everybody 8 hours. It was plenty of time to do 8.3 miles, you know, 8.2 miles.

Yeah.

Yeah. And, um, you know, I mean, it was, it was really well organized and amazing experience, you know, for somebody like me. I mean, when I was 53, I Hired a coach and he said, you have to take a master— well, first he tells me I should get in the pool and swim 1,600 yards. 1,600 yards? I was like, I don't even think I could swim 25 yards, you know? And I couldn't—

Just get me to the wall.

I couldn't really. So, um, so then I, um, he said, well, you have to join a master swim class. So I did. And I just couldn't get across the pool. Like, I was throwing up. The water was going up my sinuses. I mean, it was like I was a mess. And the lifeguard jumped in the water with me and he says, come on, let's blow bubbles. You know, so, so just, you know, visualize, like, here is a person that, like, almost 10 years ago I didn't even know how to swim, and last year I swam 8.2 miles. You know, I mean, so, so What I'm trying to say is not that I'm so great, but that anybody could do this.

Yes, it's totally possible. Wow, that is— that's so awesome. So again, going from nothing to open water is totally possible.

Totally doable, totally possible. You can't think, oh my God, there's like fish in the water, or There's sharks in the water or whatever.

People here are like, are there alligators? I'm like, no. In Florida, different conversation. Like, it depends on where you are.

It does.

But not, at least not here in North, in the central North Carolina. You are not going to have alligators, but people have legitimate fears.

Yeah.

Right. Of, are there, are there fish in the water? Absolutely. Do they want to have anything to do with you? No. Unless you stand still and then they're going to be like, what are you? And then they're going to take a little nibble and be like, nah. I'm good.

So cramps, you know, the little cramps, they nibble on your toes.

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, that's a good segue. Like, there are things in the water. So do you have anything of whether in the book or just in general of how to overcome that fear of the creepy crawlies?

Yeah, I mean, so a lot of— so I have like a, you know, a couple, actually a couple of chapters on this, like On the whole mental thing, you know.

Yeah.

And, you know, it gets to a point where you first need to visualize yourself swimming out, just not even like in your home, you're lying in bed, just think about yourself, visualize yourself swimming. And then once you're in the water, just take it Nice and slow and just look around and experience the beauty of nature because it's gorgeous. It really is gorgeous. I mean, we are so blessed to live on the East Coast. I mean, I'm sure the West Coast, they've got great beaches too.

Yeah.

But on the East Coast, we, we just have so much water and it's so beautiful here.

Yes.

Um, you know, and, and I have a whole like checklist of what to do and how to, you know, how to kind of overcome that. And, you know, people have told me that it's really helped them, so that makes me feel really good.

Yeah.

You know, and then I also have other, like, inspiring stories, like, throughout the book. I did it very similar to the triathlon book, Unlocking the Triathlon. I had a ton of stories either elite athletes or, or age groupers doing their first triathlon. In this book, it's more about like, there was this one guy who lives in Egypt and he was a runner and, you know, they, the doctors told him to stop running because of his knees and all of this. And he's—

Right.

They said, you know, get in the pool, you'll love it. And he ends up getting in the pool and somebody told him about an open water event and You know, he didn't think he could do it, and then he did it. And, you know, so it— to me, like, these stories are so motivational. There's another woman in this book who did the 20 bridges around Manhattan. Oh my God, I think it's like 28.5 miles.

That is nuts.

Yeah, you know, and she, she just— she had COVID. She like— I mean, like, what? You And she did it. Like, she just, you know, to me, like, seeing these people, like, have the courage, because that's— that too is very scary, swimming around Manhattan in that water. I don't know.

Yeah.

You know, it's—

We could argue that's not so beautiful.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it looks pretty from—

well, from afar, maybe. Yeah.

Yeah.

I must feel really close, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's a real thing. And we do have folks, at least locally, who, when they swim in open water, which I would, I would much rather swim. I, this finally didn't dawn on me until probably about a year ago that of all 3 disciplines, I swim the least and it is probably the lowest on my list, even though when I'm in the water, certainly in a race, I'm like, oh, I love this. This is so great. And it finally dawned on me that I just don't like swimming inside in a pool. It's inside. The reason why I chose triathlon is because it's outside.

I love that.

So we have an outdoor pool. When I swim in the outdoor pool, I'm like, oh, I do like this. Or swim in the open water, which is a little bit more logistically challenging, cuz please, you guys don't swim by yourself.

Right.

You know, have a kayak or a paddleboard or swim with friends. Like, you've got to have some sort of like backup plan.

But, uh, tow buoy.

And it's— and a tow buoy. Yes, yes. Uh, so that you're visible to boats, to all the things depending on where you're swimming. But swimming around Manhattan, that's next level.

That's totally next level. Totally. I swim— when I swim, and it's really funny because we swim at this place called Tobay Beach, uh, which is on the base side. So it's like Very narrow inlet. You get like a bay on one side and the ocean on the other. So, and it feeds from the ocean, so you still have a lot of current there. It's not— but it's a little bit more protected anyway. So when I go and I swim, I swim with this huge duck, okay? And I put all my stuff in there. Like, I put my hydration in there.

Snacks. Yeah, go have your snacks.

Somebody said to me I should, I should just swim around and ask people, like, put beers in there and say, hey, you could be like a roving—

yeah, it's like a roving, uh, you know, like drink business or something.

Maybe I could make a little money on this side, right?

Oh my goodness, that's so good.

Funny.

Yeah, so be visible, I think, is, is certainly one of the tips. Do you have any other Tips for folks who are, you know, also know your limits.

Like, you know, if you're tired or you feel like you just can't keep going, like, don't push yourself. Like, get out of the water.

Yeah.

Um, you know, besides the tow buoy, I also like to wear like a bright swim cap so that I'm visible. Like, that I think is really important, you know. I think that a lot of people like to go in the water, in the cold water, you know, like now it's cold. Now we're getting, you know, it's no longer in the 70s anymore. And the water we're getting in the 50s, like mid-50s here. Yeah, it's cold. And it's just going to get colder. And some people go year round. But for those, you know, like they moved Jones Beach, which is our big race over here, to the end of October, which is Really gonna be freezing. It's gonna be chilly. It's gonna be— I mean, it was cold. I went out today, it was 45 degrees. It was cold. It was cold. Yeah, I mean, I was wearing a little down jacket and I was thinking, it's time for the winter coat, like literally. Yeah, so it just happened so fast because like last week was like 85. It's just nuts.

I know, this weather is so Bananas. Yeah.

But though, but when you're swimming in the, in the cold water, you know, like I was telling you earlier before the, the interview that I was, I volunteered this weekend at a triathlon.

Yeah.

And the open water segment was in a pond in Montauk, which is all the way on the end of Long Island. And it's, it's chilly out there. Very chilly. Like, it was, it was 50 degrees when we got there. It was cold.

Yeah. And to clarify, in the air, not in the water. No.

Yeah, exactly. The air is cold. So, so, um, I had, you know, so I was volunteering, I was walking around transition, and people were asking me, like, one guy came up to me and he's just wearing like a little, you know, first of all, the tri kit that he was wearing was too big for him, which I'm thinking to myself like, oh yeah, yeah, you know. Yeah, yeah. No, it's— yeah. be skin-tight, right?

Yeah.

But, um, he says, you know, I don't have a wetsuit and I haven't done open water swimming yet at this point. And I said, well, what did you sign up for? He said, well, the sprint. He said, do you think I should drop down to like a duathlon? And, you know, I'm a little bit more conservative, right? So I told him, I said, you know what, I really think you should. drop down to it. Because if you've never been in the open water and you don't have a wetsuit and the water is cold, it was like, you know, low 60s.

That's very cold.

Yeah.

For never being in the open water and no wetsuit.

And, and, you know, you could get that— a lot of, a lot of these swimmers on these Ironman events and stuff like that, even we just had somebody who passed away during an Olympic event here on Long Island, and they had CYPE, which is Swimming-induced pulmonary edema.

Mm-hmm.

And that comes from the cold. So the thing to do is to, you know, wet your face, wet your neck, make sure that you're acclimated to the water before you actually go in the water, you know. And I think that's, you know, a huge tip. If at any point you're in the water and you're swimming and you're choking, or you're like, you feel like very phlegmy, or you're like spitting up like a pink forth kind of thing, stop.

Stop immediately. Yeah.

Yeah. Because that— I just feel like people don't really know.

And yeah, they're— We are trained as lifeguards to look for that. If somebody ends up on your board or on your kayak doing that, that is an immediate— you're out. Yeah. That is not the ambulance. Yeah. And that's not to scare people, but like, sport inherently has an inherent Danger to it. And it doesn't matter whether you're doing triathlon or football or running or skateboarding or anything, anything, right? Like, it's just, that's, but the joy it brings you and the positive health effects that it can bring you far outweigh the dangerous pieces like that. But it's still necessary to be aware of it, right?

100% agree. 100% agree. I mean, I, I just feel like You know, what happens as athletes, we tend to push ourselves through the pain. You know, we, we get some type of a pain when we're, you know, when we're biking, we feel it in our quads or our hamstrings or wherever, and we push through it. And that's what we tend to do.

Yeah.

And, you know, in this particular case, like Don't push through something like this, you know. I mean, sometimes it depends on what it is, but if it's something serious and it's a little— it's completely outside of what you've ever experienced.

Yeah.

Cautionary is better.

I mean, it's hard to balance that sort of like The David Goggins' messages. And, you know, I have nothing against him, but you have to balance what is it worth for you.

Right.

And we all have a very unique journey and a unique path that we are here for. And sometimes DNF is part of that path and part of those lessons that we need. to absorb and learn. But that does not make you any less of a human being or any less of an athlete.

Absolutely.

Right?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have a— I work with this guy who— he's terrific. I mean, he keeps signing up for Ironman Eagleman, and he keeps DNFing it. But he's gotten to the point where he goes through the swim, Goes through the bike. I'm like, you know what? Just be proud of yourself. You got through 2 legs of this race. Be proud of yourself. Like, that's—

Absolutely. It's a big deal.

Yeah. I mean, it's— look, we're all, we're all in this together.

And yes, you know, it's the courage to show up, the courage to, to sign up and to do the work. And if that means you get across the finish line, great. If that means you don't, great.

And it's okay.

Yeah. Yeah, it totally is.

I, I remember thinking like, oh, a DNF is like the worst thing that can ever happen.

Yeah.

You know? And then I realized I actually DNF'd one of my races and it was like, okay, I didn't die. I'm okay.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, let's talk about a little bit of a channel change of gear, cuz I know we've mentioned it a little bit and, you know, our little ducky behind you or your wetsuits.

Oh, my duck.

Wetsuits.

Yes.

Like, there are— I feel like this is a— this is an intense topic because it's not like, well, let me head to Target and grab me a— like, there's— there can seem like there's a lot to it. So tell us what you have about wetsuits.

Yeah. So I have a whole section about wetsuits in the book. You know, there are different types of wetsuits. I mean, I probably have more than Many. Yeah.

This is like, this is like bikes in the, you know, in the stable.

You know, you like having many pairs. It's true.

I mean, like, for me, I am in love with my shorty. My shorty is my favorite wetsuit, but I also live in the South, Hillary. I would probably not ever wear it if I lived where you lived. No, sleeveless is great. A long sleeve is great. I have sleeves. I have gloves. I have a cap. I don't have booties. But anyway, tell us about that.

You need the booties. You need the booties when it's cold.

Yeah.

You know, or when it's rocky, you know.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I wear them when it's rocky. I talk about all the different types. The shorty. I love the shorty too. That's no sleeve and short shorts. Some people even wear lava pants, you know, or lava shorts to, you know, when they swim. Which I, you know, I'm not— I don't feel comfortable with that. It's just to me, it's a little too low down. You know, they make them, they make them kind of like low. And I'd prefer something that's just, you know, my whole suit.

Your whole torso.

Yeah, exactly. But I would, I would—

I feel like that's more popular with men. I have zero data on that other than what I've seen and what I've experienced. Men tend to, as they're Men who are getting into this sport oftentimes later in life, God love you, but sometimes you're a little more dense.

Yeah.

And you sink a little bit more. Oh, yeah. You just need a little bit of a, a little bit of a lift in your hips. So Lava Shorts— To explain real quickly what Lava Shorts is, because I feel like I'm talking to my son right now, like the literal word of this does not sound anything like what it is. So explain that.

Yeah, I mean, you know, you can— there's a lot of different terminology, right, for it. Like, there's the lava shorts, there's the sim shorts. They're basically what they are is they're made out of wetsuit material, and they are shorts that you wear that keep you buoyant. And you're right, I mean, I know a lot of— I train with a lot of guys, and they tend to sink In the pool, but in the open water, they wear their wetsuit, they're flying. I mean, it's, it's insane.

It's magical. Yeah.

Yeah.

Wetsuits are so great.

Yeah. I mean, for me, I don't know. It doesn't really do that much. I don't know because I'm pretty like level when I, when it comes to the pool.

Yeah.

So, but for some people—

We gotta do some, Hillary, we gotta do some like time trials. You're gonna have to test it out. Although it's probably hard with like more current and things like that is to Really isn't a one-to-one comparison.

Yeah. The problem, right, is that, you know, what you said is that there is current. And, you know, I often— and I actually have a chapter in the book about why is it that you swim faster in the pool than you do in the open water. You know, now some people do swim faster in the open water, but most—

I've not met many of them.

No, most do not. Yeah. And, and, and that bothered me for a really long time because I would be like, you know, in the pool I'd be averaging 1:50 or something like that. I mean, I'm not a fast swimmer, but whatever. And a 1:50 to 100. And then in the open water, it would be like 2:15 or 2:30 to 100. And it's like, what? You start thinking, what's going on here? Why is this happening? But it really has to do with the current. It has to do with the water temperature. It has to do with— The stroke, you know, when to shorten your stroke, when to elongate your stroke. You know, there's so many different elements that are involved here.

Yeah. Cool. So it sounds like in the book you have led people who wanna get into triathlon, certainly some more long course kind of things, but also some open water long course, and then getting into all the gear aspects and Exactly. Stroke, all kinds of, all kinds of fun stuff.

And also like how to find events. I was thinking, oh, I really love swimming and I want to get into more swimming events. How do you, how do you go about finding them? You know, so I have a whole chapter on that, like where to look, where to, you know, and that's, and that's great. I've done Swim to the Moon a couple of times. That's Eva Solomon. She's with Epic races in Michigan. Oh yeah.

Cool.

Yeah. And that's a beautiful, beautiful swim. It's a lake swim, but it's got like connecting— it's, it's got like little like tunnels and connectors to different lakes, you know.

Neat. So cool.

It's so beautiful. And that's like, I've done that twice and I absolutely love those swims.

So cool. Yeah. So there's basically, if you can get into open water swimming, you not only can unlock triathlon, But now you've got a whole nother world to explore. And we didn't even talk about swim run, you know?

Right, exactly.

Which is one of my favorites.

But, you know, or aqua bike, which, or aqua bike. Yeah.

Yes. A lot of people do. Mm-hmm. Yep. Who are like, no, screw running. I don't wanna ever do that. Um, so yeah, I, it's, it's a whole new world. And which reminds me, I crewed someone who did the Alligator 8-mile swim down in, uh, like the Keys area. Yeah, that was, that was no joke for me on the kayak or the swimmer.

Oh, were you on the kayak? Oh boy.

I was on the kayak. It was like a beautiful day to start with. And then you get out there and then things start to shake up. And then, uh, he was, my swimmer was having kind of a rough time and then ended up having to get picked up. And in the meantime, you know, like dealing with the boats and I did not take any Dramamine that morning. And so anyway, some fish got my breakfast, but it's fine. We all made it. We all survived. So, you know, the life of a support crew. But yeah, man, that was no joke. I mean, oh wow.

There are a lot of those swims out there. Like somebody sent me, one of my swimmers sent me a swim from St. Lucia to St. Kitts.

Oh, sign me up, please.

Oh my God. Can you imagine that? It's probably so gorgeous. You could see right through. You could see the turtles. I actually raced once in St. John, and the water, that was incredible. I mean, I saw turtles floating by. It was just like, oh my God, this is insane how gorgeous this is.

Yeah. Oh, okay. So swimcations, I think, or is that what we're officially gonna call them?

I like it.

Yeah.

Swimcations. Get into open water swims.

Go all in. And here's the beauty of it, especially coming from triathlon where I literally have to consult my checklist every single time. I raced this past weekend and I had my son read my checklist off to me as I was like packing my bag. And you know, I've been doing this for. Over 25 years and I still have to go with the, you know, it's like swimming. You're like goggles, check. Wetsuit, check.

Yeah. I actually have like a whole list in the book of race day essentials. And then like also I have, you know, if you're kayaking for somebody.

Yes.

What to bring with you.

I could have used that, Hillary. Come on. Yeah. It's all because you have to, you have to hang out for, you know, it's not a short while to do 6, 8, 10 miles. It's, you're hanging out for a while.

Yeah. Yeah. A long while.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Okay, Hillary, anything else we missed about this amazing new book that you have coming out?

Um, just where to order it. You know, you could get it on Amazon, Barnes& Noble. You can go into your independent bookstore and ask for it. You know, it is available through Ingram. Um, that's like the service I think they all use.

Okay, cool.

I'm gonna be doing a little book tour, not as big as the last one, but I'll be doing a couple of stops on Long Island and then going out to Colorado for a week. So cool.

Okay, so a little behind the scenes here. What is it? So what was that like? You went to, you went to Colorado and you went to Austin. And what is it like doing a book tour? I mean, we got to hear like the real deal.

Like, it was so tiring. I mean, it was great meeting people. Like, I met so many people that I, that I am friendly with on social media. You know, you get, we all like become part of this community. And I love that about triathlon. on, you know. It's like we're all like the same kind of people. Yeah. And so I— it was just really tiring, and it was a lot of work and trying to get people. And, you know, there were times when I had, you know, like, I don't know, 30 people, and then there were times when absolutely nobody showed up.

Oh man. I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's a It's a niche subject. Yeah. Um, but I feel like we are losing touch with each other, and this is an opportunity to actually connect and ask real questions and, and, uh, do real human contact things. That might have sounded weird. Don't take it to that. But it is.

It's true. It's so true. With social media, you know, we, we lose sight of Those connections, you know. We, we get so— we think like, you know, that this online world is a real world, but it's really not a real world. But the nice thing about it is that when you do meet people in the real world, like— and I met so many people that I'm so friendly with on, on social that I just— it was fantastic for me. I love that. Good.

Good. Okay. Very cool.

All right.

So this is going to be a mini book tour, right?

Mini book tour. Yeah. I think I might be doing a couple of other things. You know, I'm, I'm kind of like scouting the waters, but yeah, it's going to be a little mini tour. I was, you know, thinking of targeting different race companies and stuff like that. Like for first timers, you know, that type of thing. That—

Hillary, you are always welcome at our Humans of Steel triathlon every August where it is hotter than blazes. But We do a reverse triathlon. Oh, which is even more intimidating.

Wow.

Yes. So run, bike, swim. And the reason, part of the reason why I did that is because aquabikers have, they get the total shaft. They swim and then they bike and then they end up in transition, which is so anticlimactic. Like everybody deserves a finish line, but it is hard to swim last. And I know I get so many people who are like, there's a reason why the swim is first. I'm like, no, there's not. Yeah. Like, look into the history of the sport. Like, this is— nope, that's not.

Yeah.

And in fact, from a race logistics perspective, you're going to have the most issues at the very first part of the race when most people are like, like you had described, I've never done open water before and I am around all these other people and it's cold or it's hot or whatever the situation might be. And they panic.

Yeah.

Right. So, yeah. Anyway, all that to say, you are welcome to.

Thank you.

If you wanna hang out in August in North Carolina, which is, I'm sure everybody's dream.

So cool.

All right, Hillary, so we can order the book from our favorite retailer, right? Love it. Unlocking the Open Water Swim. So good. So excited for you. Thank you for supporting the sport.

Thank you.

In this way and supporting our community in this way, because I think that just like your messages is that everybody can do this no matter what your age, your gender, your ability, like it's totally possible. So anything, anything else you want to leave us with, Hillary?

I just appreciate you and I appreciate your audience for listening in and Yeah, I'm always available if anybody has any questions. You can find me on Instagram.

Cool. All right. So, and I'll be sure to link to that, uh, in the show notes too.

Terrific.

Thank you, Hillary Tapper. So excited that you came back on. I truly appreciate you. Thanks for writing the book and good luck with the book tour.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.