15 HR Mistakes That Could Destroy Your Practice with Carys Jones

People just knowing how to work the system more than ever. So plan to terminate employee. Next thing you know, that employee comes in and says, I'm taking a mental health leave and I will be back the next month. All of a sudden that termination becomes much more complex.

How to get smarter in business and in life. This is the question, and I'm on a journey to get you that answer. I'm going to interview the world's top entrepreneurs and deconstruct their winning secrets. Going to talk about everything, marketing, money and living a bucket list life. I'm Rick Lau, healthcare entrepreneur. I grew and exited my 127 locations in my 30s. Welcome to the Clinic Boss Show. All right, everyone. Welcome to the Clinic Boss Show. So today we got a special guest, right? We got Karis Jones, and she's an HR consultant with Peninsula and she works with a lot of clinics in the community, you know. And so Carys, can you maybe tell us more about, like, Peninsula and kind of what you do for practice owners?

Yeah, absolutely. It's a pleasure to be here. Today. Essentially, Peninsula offers services to help businesses on the back end with their HR and health and safety concerns. We work very closely with many clinic owners because the thing that I hear the most often is we go through a lot of schooling, but never are we trained on how to run our business or run our employees. So these are gaps that exist and our lawsuits. Right, exactly, exactly. Or how to deal with the headaches that come along with it all. So these are gaps that exist for a lot of clinic owners and that's where we can come into play to fill those gaps and put more time back into their day to focus on their business and growing their business.

Okay, cool. I love that, you know, and you come, you came to a lot of our events, so. Yeah, And I heard, I hear the good things that our community talks about you guys. Right. So, and I'm curious, what's some of the. What's some of the most biggest HR disasters you see in, like, maybe in the last year, you know, like in small businesses or practices? Like, what's trending right now?

Right, yeah. So a big one is the claims culture that exists out there today. It is rapidly growing. There are employment lawyers, there's workplace injury lawyers all over the radio these days broadcasting the fact that they will help support you at no addition, at no fee upfront, they're taking a portion of that settlement value. As a result of this, employees have definitely a sense of entitlement these days, and we're seeing more pushback from employees more than ever. So.

Yeah.

And what are some of the popular, like claims, you know, or lawsuits are you seeing in this claims culture?

Right.

Wrong. Small business front, constructive dismissal. Those are really big ones. And then people just knowing how to work the system more than ever as well. So terminate employee. You have everything set in place. You're going to do it by the end of the week. Next thing you know, that employee comes in and says, I'm taking a mental health leave and I will be back in the next month. All of a sudden, that termination becomes much more complex. And business owners are faced with this on an ongoing basis because those employees know once they've taken that leave, they're on a job protected leave. And if it results in a termination, it will be harder to get them out and they're more likely to win a claim.

Wow. Wow.

That's crazy. Daryl, have you seen this recently with some practice owners in our community?

Yeah, and I've seen it a lot, too. Like especially outside of our practices as well, is that mental health creates a protected leap. And I think the hardest part too, in that case, Karis, is how long do they actually have to be back before you can terminate?

Yes. So that's a very good question. So it is definitely not as straightforward as that employee comes back and you terminated first and foremost. Did any documentation happen before they actually left? So building up a documentation trail in any capacity is always important for business owners. So if you've built that documentation trail, it's a little bit easier to deal with a termination sooner when they've came back. Otherwise, you're looking to build up a documentation trail from scratch that shows that this termination has nothing to do with the leave of absence that they took. So you need to separate the two. And that does take some time. So you're looking at, depending on the situation, you could be looking at two to three months of case managing that employee and building that documentation trail to get you to that termination point, which it's important to keep in mind. They're also building up a lot of tenure during that time, which increases their overall termination payout. So we always advise if you're thinking of terminating somebody if you don't think that they can, they're a good fit for your workplace or they're toxic. You need to get them out sooner rather than later before allowing these problems to unfold.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, Karis, the things we've chat about with two things that come up in our conversations is one, we wait way too long to terminate Right. So we don't follow the higher, slow fire, fast philosophy. And the other thing too is there's usually no documentation.

So let's talk about that. Charis. Like, what would be the right way to terminate a staff? You know.

So it really depends on the situation. Now you can decide that you want to terminate an employee tomorrow and go ahead with that termination. So there's a lot of misconception out there that, oh, we have to go through those three strikes in order to get that employee out. That's not the case. You can absolutely move forward with a termination the following day without any kind of documentation behind them. Now, once they have reported any kind of job protected leaves, it does become more complex and you do need that documentation trail when it involves a termination. First things first. You want to review your employment contract. So what does your employment contract state? Do you have an employment contract in place? If there's no employment contract in place, your employees are actually entitled to more than what the Employment Standard act is laying out. So there is a misconception out there. The Employment Standard act just exists. However, those are just minimums that the government says you have to provide at least this. Without an enforceable and legally binding contract in place, employees are entitled to much more than those minimums. So when dealing with a termination, the first thing we need to review is what does my employment contract look like? Is it enforceable? And then once you've determined that you're looking at what their termination pay is going to be, is it for cause or without cause? Obviously, for cause is much more difficult to prove. You are increasing the likelihood.

What are most people doing? Most people just do not cause.

Right?

Not cause. Yes. And with any kind of not cause termination, you're looking at a termination payout.

Yeah. Which is better? Because this is what we mean by you don't need the three strikes in. Right?

You know, Exactly. Yes. And even for cause, it is. It is a very difficult thing to prove. And if you go on Google right now and you Google I was terminated for cause, first thing that is going to start popping up are law articles that are going to state, if you've been terminated for cause, give me a call. We can probably fight this.

Yeah.

Okay. Okay, cool. And is there a formula, like, you know, like, is it two times the minimum standard? Is that a good way of like paying someone out or. Not really.

With an enforceable employment contract in place, you would be looking to pay them out on the minimum standard. So one week for every year of employment and generally you are going to Give them something extra to have them sign off on what's called a full and final release. That is a legal document that prevents them from coming back and filing a claim against you.

Yeah, and we've done that a few times, Darrell. Right. You know, like, we've seen that where, like, it's actually better to be generous with, like, the payout so there's less, like, ramification down. Like, you know, like, who cares about that extra, like, a couple weeks?

Right.

You know, so, absolutely. Unfortunately, what we're seeing these days is even when you are generous, you are still at risk of those claims, especially as a small business, because lawyers understand that these small businesses don't have legal departments behind them, so they're quicker to settle on these things when they come back demanding more.

Okay. Wow. And something you mentioned earlier, Karis, is that, like, there's some employees that know how to play the game, right?

Yes.

How do they learn how to play the game? Is it because you speak to one of these employment lawyers and then they coach them through it, or they work with people on your team or they read your blog articles?

Right.

Like, how do they learn to play the game?

You know, there's a lot of resources out there today, so, I mean, realistically, a lot of the enforcement agencies are really there to protect the employee. So they can call in and they're going to say, these are what you're. You're entitled to X, Y and Z. Employment lawyers are a huge one. They're all over the radio, they're all over the news. They're extreme, explaining to people exactly what their rights are. And then on top of that, Google. Google is a very powerful resource. It only takes a few words to explain your situation, and then you're getting an idea of where other people could be going wrong. Unfortunately for a lot of business owners, it's their employees who are coming to them and explaining, oh, you are. You aren't allowed to do this. This is against the law. This goes against the Employment Standards Act. And this is the first time the business owner has actually realized that they were doing things wrong.

Yeah. Wow.

And. And do you, like. If we relate this back to, like, practice owners, do you see that mostly with, like, front desk and minerals? Are you seeing that, like, with, like, more the clinicians, like the Cairos, the physios, massage therapists?

Right.

What do you. What are you seeing that's trending right now?

Like, yeah, there seems to be a lot of issues with front desk staff that. That is very ongoing. The other problem that we're seeing with a lot of the clinicians would be the misclassification that exists. So that, in essence is when a worker is working for you as a independent contractor, but they can be defined as a employee.

Oh, my God. Not this conversation. We've been having this conversation for the last 20 years. So it's still a big, like, it's something that's trending and it's a big issue right now, right?

Yes, yes, it really is. I mean, at the end of the day, when people realize that there's a chance can come back and they can get more money out of you and they have nothing to risk.

Can you describe the craziest? Like, you know, because you're speaking a lot of HR and legal terms, can you describe, like, maybe a scenario that's quite like, common in a, in a practice that relates to this, this, this problem?

Yeah.

So you go, you, you end a relationship with one of your independent contractors. Right. Massage therapist. Let's say that massage therapist is angry. Upon, upon leaving, they will go to a lawyer. The lawyer asks them certain questions like, were, were they giving you set hours? Were you using some of their equipment while you worked there? Were you paying any kind of fees for that equipment? Would somebody else be allowed to go in and do your job for you on your scheduled shifts? Which is another aspect of independent contractors which really just does not relate to the health and wellness world. Unfortunately, on paper, the way that it is set up is if you're an independent contractor, that's what you can do. The worker can then come back and claim they were always a employee. So they're entitled to things like cpp, vacation pay, termination pay, everything of that nature.

Yeah.

And then, and then what happens with like, an owner in that situation then? Like, what's their, what's their damages or what's their liabilities?

So they have, they have to prove otherwise.

Okay.

Best way to do that would be having proper subcontractor agreements in place.

Let's just say you don't have that stuff, you know, and like, you're just like, you don't, you know, they've never worked with you or they don't have any agreements. You know, like, they just do what most clinics do, like independent contractor, no legal support. Like what, what would, what would the fallout for the owner be at that case?

Right.

They'd be looking at legal fees to help defend this because that would be the first step when you receive that demand letter. And then they are paying out all of these different costs. So termination pay. How long was the employee there for cp.

Okay.

Patient pay, everything of that nature.

Okay. And then cpp, ei.

Right.

You know, and then, and, and then. Is this likely? Have you seen like. Have you seen this like, happen like quite like, has it happened more recently or. It's all roughly the same, you know. Is this something that's trending a lot? Because I just, I, I remember this conversation. This conversation has been like, it's been like around for like the past like 15, 20 years. Right. You know?

Yeah. You would like to think that by this point we had gotten a grasp on all of this stuff. And there have been exceptions made to certain industries because clearly there's a difference if you have an independent contractor who's working as a electrician versus an independent contractor who's working as a clinician. But there has been no divide made. And it's, it's, it's becoming more common because people are just more aware of the terminology, which is misclassification.

Yeah, yeah. So you end up like, you know, so the owner ends up have to pay some big lump sum fee, you know, to the employee and also likely back taxes as well.

Right, Exactly. Yeah.

So how much dollars. This could be a lot of money, right, Daryl, if you really add it all up. What do you think?

Well, yeah, so it's a lot of money for that individual because now they're an employee the whole time. But I'm actually, where I'm curious too, Caris, is will they go back in and look at all of your employees that are now or contractors that are within that business entity? Is that also repercussion?

Typically they do not. However employees talk, as we all know. So there are other employees who were in similar positions. Once one employee has gone through something like this, they they to tell the other employees, this is the kind of thing that we can now. We could now do. Especially if they've ended their relationship with them since then. Ending a relationship is never easy. It is always a complicated thing. And sometimes it comes down to somebody just wanting the last laugh in it all and saying, yep, I disagree with what you did. And now I'm going to. This is going to add up to a great expense for you.

Especially when you think about most people that we do terminate, it's because they're just toxic in the clinic. Right, right. And it's a tough because we. I don't think I've ever fired anybody with cause in my career, but when I have terminated people, it's just not been the right fit. And sometimes when people don't expect to see it or they make decent revenue, their back certainly can get up. I'm actually curious, and this is going to be a tough question to answer, Caris, but I think you can do it. How many clinics that you guys actually have done an assessment on really, truly have independent contractors?

I would say none. Easy question. I would.

I didn't know you would be so truthful.

Yeah, yeah, I would say none. I mean, it's because of the nature of the work that you're doing. How could you say to an independent contractor, hey, if your other friend who's a massage therapist wants to come in and give massages one time while you're away, that's totally. That's totally fine with me. Right. You guys have a reputation on the line. You have a culture that you've built, and you don't just want a person from off the street essentially coming in and saying, I'm working here for the day, or whatever it may be.

And what happens if we put in, like, a procedure, like a process? So, like, if I was. Let's say, for example, Rick was a physio and I needed to go cover for him because he's away for two weeks. Could. Could Rick bring me in as a locum?

Yes. Yes, he could.

It just couldn't be. But the problem is it's the clinic owner doing the. Arranging the coverage, as opposed to Rick, the independent business, bringing me in. Right?

Yes. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, as long as there's someone there and you aren't punishing Rick for doing this. So you're not saying, Rick, you left me hanging and you're going on vacation, and now we are writing you up because of that. I had to find someone to fill. Fill in your shoes for that period of time. Then you would be completely okay to do that for them.

Okay, now here I'm gonna go into this one. This happens. This is in my office hours at least twice a week. So I have an independent contractor who wants to be a contractor. They make more money, let's say. But I'm just gonna go off on vacation for four weeks. So all of a sudden, all those new patients that we just saw have no care. So everyone's like, and now the clinic owner has no revenue. They're still paying the same amount of rent. What. What are their options there? Because we're all like, get someone to cover that.

Yeah. So that's part of the reason why I really. Donors to have employees over subcontractors. Because you do have so much More control over employees. Even if you have your employees set up as casual employees or part time employees, you're going to have more control over them in comparison to an independent contractor. Now when something like that happens with an independent contractor and you realize this, this person could be a problem moving forward, they will just take off huge amounts of time all at once. I always encourage clinic owners to end that relationship because if it's happened once, it will likely happen again or you'll have other similar issues with them.

Kara says there's a shortage of like physiotherapists or chiropractors right now. And I'm super desperate, you know, and independent contractor wants this, this therapist wants to be independent contractors because they want tax write offs.

Right.

You know, and the only way I could keep him is if I make him an independent contractor.

I hear that all the time. I absolutely hear that all the time. I mean, it is, at the end of the day, there's no, there's no easy answer for it. I have said in the past, we're not here to reinvent the wheel. Your, your wheel has been around for quite some time and this is the way that it has operated. So if you want to take that risk, you absolutely can. But you should be aware of the risks that come along with it.

Yeah, I love that it is a risk.

Right.

And it depends on your relationship with this person. You know, if they leave like disgruntled, it sounds like there is a lot of liability that's associated with, which might more than offset like any gains you could have from them from this relationship, right?

Oh yeah, absolutely.

And so for the, let's be honest, if, if you're a clinic that like you're, you're adamant that I want independent contractors. Right. You know, like, what is, like what's the, what is what needs to happen to qualify, like according to the government, Right?

Yeah. So technically, to have an independent contractor working for you, first of all, you want to make sure that they've signed off on an independent contractor agreement that states that they are their own entity. You also are not supposed to be giving them any kind of set hours. That means they can just come and go completely as they.

That's impossible on the scheduler.

And that's the difficult thing. If you have a room that's available for a physiotherapist, chiropractor, massage therapist, you need them to be coming in to generate revenue during that time. So that's why the definition of independent contractor just does not align properly with health and Wellness clinics. And it's really unfortunate because it leaves you guys with your, your hands tied unless you have unlimited amount of money and space and all of those sorts of things where you can say everybody just is able to do whatever they want during the workday and otherwise. Otherwise you're open to risk.

Yeah.

Also risk of loss as well. Right. You know, like they need to be able to pay like a rent or they need to be able to show that, you know, like there is loss in their business. Right? You know?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my favorite part. I'm gonna go on four weeks vacation, but I don't pay you anything. So I actually have no loss. And just because you don't get your fee split, that's not the loss. Yeah, right.

Yeah.

So, Daryl, like a trend that we've been pushing in our community for the people that do want to pay their, like call it their clinicians on a revenue share, like on commission is like you make them a revenue sharing employee.

Right.

You know, or commission based employee. Do you want to talk about that, Darrell?

Yeah, Yeah. I think, you know, we've, we've seen this over the years too. Right. And it's getting people to move clinicians from independent contractors to employee and then giving them the variable options. Right. So it still goes back like employee that's paid hourly, employee that's paid a base hourly with a per patient, let's call it a premium, I guess, or straight up employee that's paid on a fee split. The challenge though, with that is twofold. One, it's expensive, especially if you're in BC versus Ontario because you have guaranteed five paid sick days. Right. So that's, that's an additional 2% cost that will go up each year when CPP and EI go up. But it's also to the big challenge is that the clinician has a hard time understanding like why do I have a 10 to 14% lower percentage now as an employee with no write offs. Right. So that's the kind of the world that we sit like there is choices. But we've seen some clinic owners just, they're at risk of losing their staff if they make the change. So, Karis, to your important point earlier is the risk assessment. And Rick, your point, there's a shortage of clinicians. What am I going to do?

Yeah, that's crazy. So, Karis, it's like you're sitting on this big time bomb that's about to happen if you don't structure it.

Right.

You know, and if you have an Employee disgruntled independent contractor. And they want to play the game and go through that path that you talked about where, like, you know, like, they want their job protected because of mental health or whatever reason. Like, that's a very expensive game, you know, or liability later down the road, you know, because you didn't, you know, dot your I's and cross your T's, like, and getting the right structure in place, right?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's. And we see that all the time.

Yeah.

And, Karis, I'm curious, because once again, you work with a lot of practice owners. What percentage do you think in our industry.

Right.

Have their therapists as independent contractors versus employees. Do you think it's a 50? 50? Or is it like, you know, like, maybe with COVID it's more like, favored towards employees now.

Right.

Like, what do you. What do you think that number is right for our industry?

So I would say there's probably about 30% who have clinicians working as employees, and some do have a blend of both as well. Because there are certain people who prefer to be an employee. I'm. But, yeah, I would say it's probably.

Holy smokes. I think that's all our clinics right now.

Yeah, that's a lot of them. But cares. Here's. Here's the next important question, though, of those clinics that have a mix, is the agreements between an employee and independent contractor. Are they different enough for what you've seen so far?

And that's scary. I look at a lot of the agreements, and their employee agreement is essentially a version of their independent contractor agreement. So it reads exactly like an independent contractor agreement. So that means their employees aren't under enforceable, legally binding contracts. I also see it in clinics where clinicians have actually hired on their admin staff as independent contractors because it's just such a norm. Yeah.

I've never seen that. Wow. Yes.

That's next level.

I have seen that quite frequently.

And an independent contractor, front desk.

Yeah.

As an admin. Oh, boy.

Yes. It's a huge area of. Of risk. And there's. There's no way that you could say that that person was an independent contractor.

Yeah. Wow. What happens if she drives to three.

Different clinics and she gets three different checks? Because each clinic is.

I mean, can she. Can she come and go whenever she wants and she's not using any kind of office equipment while she's there? That. That's where it gets complicated.

Yeah.

And so. So he said 30. You know, has that number changed over the years or. It's always been around 30. Like, I'm curious what it was like, maybe 10 years ago, like, is that number going up? Like, with more. More independent contractors becoming employees in our profession?

So I have been seeing, even in the last few years, I have been seeing more clinics move to employee relationships with their independent contractors. The reason being they. They have started to realize the risk and liability there, and they also want more control over that working relationship. So even things like, we expect you to wear a uniform while you're here. Well, really, you can't ask a independent contractor to wear a specific shirt or anything like that while they are working. So.

Well, this. That's interesting. I know contractually they don't do it, but if you have a good relationship, you know, your good leadership, like, within your business, and you have these independent contracts, they usually want to win and they usually play the game. But when. But things get weird if they're, you know, you don't have a good relationship and they truly feel like they're independent contractors and they just, like, block. You say, nope, you can't tell me what to do. I'm independent contractor. I. My contract says this, and blah, blah, blah. Google says this. Right. That's where things get, like, tricky, you know? Right. You don't have that standardization, right?

Exactly. Yeah. And those are the ones you want to be more. Any kind of situation like that where you're seeing more pushback, any sort of red flags, you just want to be more cautious.

Okay.

And then, Karis, here's one that comes up often. I just read it last night in this Facebook group. So if we don't chart these days, an insurer could audit that and say, well, prove to me that that patient even came in. And if you can't, which is how you prove it by the chart, then you're at risk of fraud. Right. And so people get delisted for all this. But the most common thing that we hear is, my independent contractors never do their charting. What do I do?

And again, that's. That's where you want to have them set up as employees. Because there is very little that you can do besides ending your relationship with them.

Because I think this is what people don't really get. Like, fair enough. Like, they are regulated. They're supposed to follow the rules of their college, but they don't. That's their choice to take that risk. I'm not going to say I'm the best. Charter people know that too, but that's my risk. Right. However, what people also have to realize is that they're not just going to take that insurance, let's call it suspected fraud just to that clinician. They're still going to bring that back to the clinic.

Yeah.

So the owner is at huge risk if that clinician is not charting and closing their files. Right. And I kind of don't give a shit if you're a contractor or an employee. Close your files. But we hear all these weird things. Withhold someone's pay, do this, do that. But on the true IC side of things, you can't tell them what to do. Right.

You can't tell them what to do.

But let's be honest, everyone is telling them what to do. Like I know legally you're not.

Yeah.

You're not supposed to tell them what to. But like we tell them what to do. And at the end of the day like you can still let go of an IC like within 30 days. Right. I think where the issue you're telling me, Caris, is that like they're like, if they feel like it's a dis. Wrongful dismissal now.

Right.

And say, hey, you treat me as an employee the entire time. That's where the like big risk is now. Right? Is that, is that. Am I getting that big picture right, Charis?

Exactly. And having a verbal conversation with them is different than putting these kinds of things into writing as well. Withholding wages, never a good idea under any circumstances. I know. I have heard that a lot too. Is kids, can I just hold their wages? No, you will. And I end up getting yourself into trouble. You're making the relationship with that person a terrible relationship at that point. Anyways, you're far better off just saying done, it's over. We're ending our relationship at that point. If you are considering withholding wages.

Wow. Yeah. And the other thing, Charis too, that everybody does forget, like to Rick's point. So if your termination clause with the IC agreement is still 30 days, people are like, they don't realize they actually, if they want to end it today, they actually still owe them 30 days worth of pay. Yeah. It's just not called severance per se. Like it doesn't use the same ESA language. Right. But you still. I would still owe Rick 30 days worth of his average pay. Correct?

Exactly.

Yeah.

So how do you eliminate bad behavior of the. Of that 70% independent contractors in.

Right.

I would say, I mean even mixing some employees in there is going to help you because you have structure with those employees. And in general, people will follow the structure that's in place even if they haven't had to sign off on those specific. Those specific policies and procedures. So structure is very important when you have independent contractors working for you, even if they aren't tied to that structure. Follow the masses. So it does help you significantly.

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It just helps with the overall culture of people doing their jobs properly. If you do have a few clinicians who are working as employees, then they are kind of leading the way in. These are the rules and policies that have been set in place for me. So the independent contractors are going to follow along with them.

Okay, so like you said, that's one tip. You know, what else could they do?

I would say, I mean, hire on as employees is going to be your best bet. I know I sound like a bit of a broken record there, but that is one of the realities. And then just ending those relationships when they've gone. When they've gone bad as soon as.

The only thing you could do. Let's be honest, if you don't have employees, right, and you know, you've had numerous chats with them because you speak to them as an employee about limiting their bad behavior, they don't do it. There's only one option, right? Isn't it, Charis, like, you have to end that relationship.

Exactly. Yeah.

And then. And then possibly have the risks of like, legal damages later, Right. You know, depending on whether they felt like it was fair or like the disgruntled.

Right. Yeah. And that is the most challenging. That's the most challenging part about it. There should be a different definition set up exactly for what you guys do, but there isn't.

But can you not just give them a severance? Say, like, don't call us like, I don't know what you call it, but like, hey, you know, I'll give you like, you know, like a month worth of, like, you know, extra pay. Like, wouldn't that eliminate that issue or at least reduce the risk?

I mean, if you wanted to pay them out, termination pay under an employee basically, that, that would likely reduce your risk there. I'm. But you still, you always have a risk of a claim, even when you've done Everything perfectly. In any kind of situation, you have the risk of a claim. So it's.

It's always. Yeah. And Caris, are you seeing, like, on the claim side too? Are you seeing more awareness too, with people on the human rights side also throwing that into some of their claims afterwards, like, oh, Rick doesn't like me, so I'm also going to come out with a human rights claim against them.

Yes. We hear a lot about things like that. Discrimination is a huge one. That again, where you want to have a book of rules that you can fall back on. Rules are in place for absolutely everybody.

Discriminations. What else? I think you said mental health is another one. Right.

You know, mental health is a very big one. Any kind of workplace. A lot of people throw harassment, harassment at their employers just for.

Is there more males or females or like.

It's pretty split, I would say it's pretty split. Yeah. Yeah. Just simply my employee does not want to do what they were hired to do and they are challenging me on that. And when I have asked them, they have came back and now said, this is harassment. You won't stop asking me to do these things. Now I'm taking a mental health leave.

Okay. Wow.

And I'm sure there's parental leave is part one is. Or maternity leave. Is that in there? Is that pretty common in these claims cultures?

So I wouldn't say we see as much with paternity or maternity leave. I mean, I did deal with a recent example of an employer just not realizing the proper way to return a employee to work who's been off on leave.

So.

So it is actually the employer's responsibility to be touching base with the employee to say, you're due back for work. You can't just assume that that person isn't coming back. So I did recently deal with a situation, situation similar to that, where all of a sudden the employer was faced with a demand letter because they did not return that employee to work. They assumed because they had not heard from that person that they wouldn't be returning them. They just didn't want to come back to work when in fact it does fall on the employer to ensure they are returning.

Yeah, and I think those, those are two big things. Right. Is people think you can't reach out to your employee. Right. Or your staff or why they're off. That's. That's, I think, a bit of a misnomer. I think the other thing though, too is we often. I've had chats with people in the past, were like, oh, you know, this person's going at Matley, they're really not good at being my manager. So I'm going to deflect that because I want to have that difficult conversation. They're going to go on Matley for 12 months and next year they're back and they have to go back to the original job.

Right.

And when would notice start if they did want to change that job? Like when they return. Right. Like, so let's. Yeah. So let's say, for example, Chris, like, I realized that I tried to deflect the problem. Right, Right. You know, let's say an office manager. I really don't feel that they're suited for that role anymore. So they're gone for 12 months. I don't have to worry about it. No paper trail, nothing. Right. Like, see you later. Now they come back, they're actually have to go back in the same role.

Yeah.

Same pay structure, everything. If I did want to give them notice for that to change their role, how long would I have to give them coming back from a mat leave? Because they're still technically with me for 12 months. Correct?

Yes. So you're. You're essentially asking them to change roles upon their return.

Yeah, but they need a notice period for that.

You would be. It's very difficult to do. So anytime you're going to change someone's role, they are entitled to a role of equal value, of equal pay upon their return. So if they were to return, you're far better off returning them for that role and then potentially looking at terminating them for that original position and hiring them back on to a new position. That's actually something I encourage people to do quite frequently. When you want to do something like reduce pay, reduce hours, change their roles and responsibilities does not mean that you necessarily have to get rid of that. The best way to approach it most times is to terminate the employee pay. The. Or the role that you want.

Yeah, yeah, that's. These are all the reasons why you need to work with an HR expert.

But how long do they have to work with you before you could terminate them if they came back from maternity leave?

Right.

So it really depends. Does the role no longer exist? If you can prove that the role no longer exists, have you hired somebody else into that role? That's going to be a lot more difficult. It's very situational, dependent on.

Your point, Rick. Like there. Well, the thing too is, like, there's really not that many roles that no longer exist in a rehab clinic. Right. Like maybe I could say, like I was doing marketing in House. And now I'm outsourcing it, but other than that, like it's not much.

AI agents, man, they're going to replace the front desk. What you're talking about like the robots.

Okay, we're not gonna forget, we'll leave that one for a different.

Deep Seek is going to be all the Chinese robots too, right. It's all non people compliant.

Right. So Caris, I think you like what, what you outline though is so important, right? Because I think what happens sometimes as a clinic owner, especially in today's kind of market, right, and with inflation, we always think to be like, oh, this person wants more money, I can't afford it, okay? But if I can get them to do this and I give them a different job title, so I'm going to give them a bit more responsibility, okay. I can justify an extra three, four bucks an hour. And then three months later I find out they're pregnant. Oh no, what do I do? And then I realized that that role isn't, wasn't needed anymore. Like you can kind of see where people get a bit anxious with making decisions and they kind of do that knee jerk decision and then they don't realize the ramifications of that if they haven't really thought it through through. Because like you said at the very beginning, no one, no one taught us to run a business. But what makes running a business even harder is no one taught us how to manage people. Exactly right. And people are very different than managing a patient. Patients are easy to manage. People are hard.

Oh for sure. And one thing I do recommend often, and this is something we help support do, is when somebody is asking for more pay with proper documentation, you can actually implement bonus structures or increase pay for set period of time where you're essentially saying we are going to come back and revisit this at this day to see if your pay is going to stay at that level. That can be very beneficial because I do see that a lot. We've increased their pay and as soon as we did, they started doing far less work than before. And now what do I do? I do well.

So you're a big fan of bonus structure like quarterly or annual bonuses.

Right?

You know, that is, you know, is very clear on like what the objective is too.

Right.

You know, yeah. Performance based bonus structures go a very long and it keeps people working and it helps retain these employees.

All right, yeah. Rick, you can't do what you did in the past. Rick. Rick put me on salary years ago. Just got me to do more.

And when you're on paternity leave. I was paying you underneath the table too.

I didn't get fertility leave. But. But actually, the other thing I really like that you said there, Caris, that I think people forget about is that it doesn't have to be continuous. Right. So it's like, hey, I want Rick to do an extra project for me or two, because I know he's, you know, he could utilize a bit more money. But I have a big project underway. So Rick, I'm gonna create like, work on this for the next 90 days and this will be the out outcome. Right. You deliver something, I pay you for that. Right. I think people take that incentive, like it literally has to replace their hourly rate or their percentage, and then it's not sustainable. Right. So I like that piece that you said. It's not just hitting a certain level of bonus, but it doesn't have to be a guaranteed pay until it almost becomes consistent. And then it would justify a higher earning potential that remains, let's say, for the upcoming year.

Right, exactly.

I really like that. Yeah.

And I'm starting to see this in other industries where like, you know, here's your base, right. You know, and then your increases is actually like, based on your performance incentive. So make that bigger every single year.

Right.

But then it's also very clear of like, hey, this is what is required to hit this and could be based on revenue. It could be based on like these like, revenue driving metrics to offset like, what you. Your like the cost of it. Right?

So, yes, and the nice thing about that is you do not have situations where employees are coming to you saying, I have to earn more money. You've already set them up in a position.

Show me the money you can.

You can earn more money. This is how you do it.

All right.

Okay. Carrie Caris, what would you say is a top red HR red flags that you see when you audit or when you work with most practices? Like, what are you seeing? Like, everything from onboarding to find. Like, what do you. What are the top 10 HR red flags? Do you see?

I would say the top one is sweeping things under the rug. So oftentimes when things do erupt into massive issues, I sit down and I start speaking with the employer. They start to tell me, well, there was this issue and we kind of ignored it. Typically right around end of a probationary period, people notice there was a change in that person's behavior. The person does stay with them for longer, but there's lots of little issues that add up to these Larger issues. The problem is, is that people are so busy running their business and working with their own clientele that they don't have the time to keep up with all of these things. And they're just, they. They're happy to keep that person working there until all of a sudden it's turned into a very, very toxic relationship. And they also have no proof of what's happened along the way.

So is this about managing performance and having difficult conversations, like when they happen? Is that what you're kind of saying, cares?

Yeah. Addressing things as soon as they. As soon as they happen, really avoiding not acknowledging them, which is the number one thing that people are doing. They. They know, they knew there was a problem before they ever dealt with it or before it ever got as bad as it did.

Yeah.

Okay. What else?

Lack of documentation and structure. That's. That's a huge one. So when you don't have structure in place, people will create their own structure.

And what are. When you say lock on documentation, like, what is that? Like, is that onboarding? Those are contracts. Like, like, what do you, like, perform? Like, what do you mean by lack of documentation?

Yeah, so employment contracts and employment. Employee handbook generally works alongside your employment contract. That goes into a lot more detail about what your rules and policies are.

But why do you need a handbook when no one looks at it? Caris, is it just for the lawsuit, for the claim culture?

It really is, yes. So if something doesn't exist in writing these days, it's like it does not exist at all.

Okay, okay. Let's be honest. No one looks at the yellow, the white binder. You know, onboarding is first and last. Right? Or like when you're about to sue somebody. Right?

Yeah, Yeah. I will say people generally look at the things that matter to them. So vacation policies, sick policies, things of that nature. They do look at. The ones that they don't bother looking at are your disciplinary policy or your CCTV policy, that they just aren't as.

Concerned about the employee contract, employee handbook, what other documentation that they need to have, like, zeroed in on performance.

Performance reviews, annual performance reviews go a very long way. And then just, you know, if, if you are having even monthly discussions with your employees, just documenting it on your side of things, any kind of problems that arise, even if you don't want to go a formal process of writing them up, you should have some kind of documentation trail to show. This was the, the date. This is when we had that conversation.

It's like email and slack it. Like, you know, for example, you finish a difficult conversation about this certain type of conflict, and you just, like, send them email, hey, I just want to recap what we talked about. This is what we talked about. Here's our next steps. And then, like, is that. Is that good enough? Or, like, it needs to be like this, like, structured document with, like, you know, with your company logo.

And so for early on, emails are totally fine. As it gets more serious, you. You do want to make sure that there's some kind of proof that that person has actually acknowledged that.

Okay.

Hey, Karis, just a quick side note here. If I have, like, as we're big on, like, you know, doing quarterly touch bases and reviews and things like that, as opposed to just that annual review, do you do them the same with contractors as well? Like, for those mixed practices? Do you call them something different, like, what happens there?

Yeah, that's a good question. So it's a lot more difficult to be doing any kind of performance review with your independent contractors. You can. You can sit them down and go over things like the numbers, the revenue that they were generating, the number of clients that they've brought in, but you don't actually want to be speaking to them about anything that they. Any. Any problem areas or way areas that you want them to improve on.

That's in theory, but, you know, in practice, that's not what happens. Right. Like, I think most owners treat their independent contracts like employees. Like, let's just write up, like, if.

If you.

If you didn't chart your soap notes, I was like, hey, like, Daryl, go do your soap notes.

Right?

And so that's where having the conversation and not writing it down goes a long way. So as soon as you have it again, if it's not writing, it never happens.

Happen.

Okay. Yeah. And another red flag just based on our conversations is like, they're just like, you have to, like, start, like, start having more employees, like, in your business, because it's very hard to really justify independent contractors for most businesses.

Right.

You know, because you are controlling their schedule, right?

Yes, for sure. And even if you have a small number of employees, it does. It does allow you to gain a little bit more control around everything and building the poster that you want.

But I do like this, though, is that, you know, what you identified, though, is like, there's a. You can start small, right? Because some of these clinics do a wide brush to the whole clinic and go, okay, I. I heard this podcast, and Rick says everybody has to be an employee, then everybody quits. Right?

Hey, I just. I just want Everyone know like every, all the conversations have today is not financial, is advice, you know, or legal advice. You got talk to your legal and hire HL consultants. Like we're just doing experience shares of like what we see in our industry.

Right.

You know, so here's my disclaimer.

Was that good?

Yes, that's perfect. That's perfect.

All right.

Now. But I do think. Yeah, but I do think, Harris, you're right. Like you could see change by starting simple. Right. Like don't you know, don't you know if you don't have the, like the advice on the HR and legal side, then you definitely need to be very mindful of the risk that you're about to put onto your business. Right? Yeah.

And back to the red flags. Right. Like it also sounds like you should like find a way to get rid of your toxic, call it toxic players as quickly as possible.

Right.

Especially your toxic employees or ICs. Right?

Absolutely. Yes. That's a huge one. When you start seeing those red flags, you are far better off just, just getting them out. They will only do more damage with time.

Yeah. And they spread like mold. Like this is what I tell, like that one person is like mold. And like once like they're unhappy, they're disgruntled, it will just like create this mold across all your staff. And now Instead of having one disgruntled like IC, you got like eight ICs disgruntled plus two staff.

Yeah, yeah. Or they end up on leaves of absence for long periods of time and it becomes more complicated in that way as well.

Yeah.

And I think another thing I heard too is like a lot of people don't have like a, like an off boarding, a good off boarding process. Right. You know, like how do you terminate someone? That sounds like that's really important to like most people just kind of wing it.

Right?

Yeah. So in terms, there's a few different areas in off roading that people aren't aware of. Terminations is definitely one Also resignation is a big one. When someone has resigned, did they put that resignation in writing? Have you given them an acceptance of resignation? If they haven't put in writing, you should ensure that you have, you have personally put it in writing. So that is a very big one. The termination itself, you're going to want to keep it very vague in nature. If you are not terminating with cause, you should not say state causes of as to why you are terminating that individual. That's something I did in writing. I see that quite frequently. This is a not for cause termination and your performance was inadequate, you weren't arriving on time. So essentially you are completely contradicting yourself and it's going to get you, it could get you into trouble down the road. So having that termination letter in writing, having a release document, if, if you want to add that extra layer of protection.

Wow.

Geez. This is awesome. Charis, how do people find out more about you and how you can help them?

Yes. So they can reach out to me directly. For most clinic accelerator members, they have probably seen me on the clinic accelerator chat quite frequently. So my name is Karis Jones and work for Peninsula. I do offer complimentary consultations to go over these kinds of things. Again, as I said at the beginning, it really comes down to at least being aware of your risks. And that's the number one thing that I strive to work on with employers, walking them through some of those problems that they currently have and then them having that knowledge because at the end of the day that's, that's, that's power. So they can certainly reach out to me on Slack or by email. Charis.joneseninsula-ca.com yeah, and likely at our next.

Clinic Boss event, you know, whether it's a meetup or a summit, you'll likely see carousel as well, you know. And so this is, this was super juicy conversation that we had today.

Right.

I really enjoyed it. Thanks for coming on the show.

Thanks. My pleasure.

Thanks, Kir.

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