Jerry Durham: Higher Pay at the Front Desk, Your Untapped Sales Team, Tackling Recession and Inflation

Highest paid front desk you've worked with so far or you've seen the highest paid?

I don't know, dude. You're gonna make me whatever I say next? Yeah. I don't know, dude.

Like 25 bucks an hour, 30 bucks.

Yeah, probably, but with comp. You mean with like a bonus structure.

Or just, you know, like, you know.

Yeah, everything. It's got to be variable. Like, you know, it's funny you say this number, most people listen this call are going to freak out but I'm gonna like. But it's tied back to their production, their.

So what's the number? How to get smarter in business and in life. This is the question and I'm on a journey to get you that answer. I'm going to interview the world's top entrepreneurs and deconstruct their winning secrets. Going to talk about everything from marketing, money and living a bucket list life. I'm Rick Lau, healthcare entrepreneur. I grew and exited my 127 locations in my 30s. Welcome to the Clink Boss show. We are live. I want to welcome everyone to the Clink Boss show. I am Rick Lau and I'm your host. I grew and Exit127 location now a $37 billion grocery chain own my clinics.

Dude, that is.

And I'm on this journey to actually like meet and talk to all the top healthcare entrepreneurs in the on how to get smarter in business and life. So if it sounds like you, you're gonna love our show. And today we got a special guest is my good friend Jerry. So Jerry is. Jerry Durham is a physical therapist. He owned a bunch of clinics in San Francisco and exited like many years ago. Now he helps like healthcare practitioners with like front desk sales training and owners on how to increase the value of their business when they exit.

Right.

You know. So Jerry, nice to have you on the show and I'm super curious. Jerry, do you remember when we first met?

Oh sure I do. Even before you posted it. So I am going to tip off everybody and say, yes, Rick posted it. But of course I do. Right? It was at pps. I wouldn't have guessed a year, but I could have told you. Vegas, dude. Yep. When you went, when we were kind enough, us, us lofty Americans were kind enough to invite our Canadian, our upstairs neighbors to our private practice event in Vegas.

Dude. But how do we actually meet? Was this.

Yeah, I don't know. It had to be Daryl, dude. Yeah, it had to be Daryl.

Okay, okay.

And don't ask me how I met Darryl because I can't tell you.

And I. And I still remember we drank a lot that night. I still remember like.

Yeah. Moving through all that stuff, man. Right. Meeting all those people because I knew you guys were there, what you guys were there to do. And you know, I go to those events to talk to as many people as possible, so it turned out awesome. I mean, we spent a boatload of time together. And, and by the way, because there was a lot of waking time, right? We didn't sleep a lot.

100%.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then I think. And then over the last couple of. Since then, like, we've been like hanging out whether at PPS every single year, you know.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. And last year as well. So.

Yeah. And you're speaking again this year and so. So am I. Oh, Darryl speaking. You're speaking with Darryl.

No, Darrell speaking.

So.

Yeah, sorry.

Darrell speaking this year. Yeah. And I'll be a pps.

And I'm curious, what topic are you speaking at ppssa?

It's gonna be the front desk. The value of the front desk. And back to what you said. And it fits the, the intro. You know how your front desk is a short term cash builder and a long term asset grower for your business. Right. And, and the work you do at that front desk will. Will reap benefit short term and long term for your business. So that's my topic at PPS this year.

Yeah. I think last year PPS had 1400 people.

Yeah. Dude, that was packed.

It was insane. You know, it was packed.

And that is. That was the most heavily attended PPs to date.

Okay. Wow. That's pretty cool.

Austin's a good city. I'm looking forward to Austin.

Yeah. Cool. So Jerry, I'm interested, I'm curious with you right now. What are you most paying. What are you paying most attention to right now, like in economy or just with changes in the industry? Like there's just so much stuff going on, you know, like there's inflation, there's declining reimbursements, there's like all the student loans of all the pts coming out. There's wage pressures now there's like another war and then the fears of recession, stock market going like rollercoaster. Like what are you paying most attention to right now? Right.

You know, I think you cover, by the way, you literally nailed about every checkbox that anybody's going to bring up going on right now. And I'm dead serious, dude, because I've heard it. We've heard it. All right? Right. Whether it's someone bringing up three of Them or one of them, right. It's student loan debt. It's, it's declining. I call it payment, by the way. We can call it declining reimbursement. It's declining payment. It's right. Inflation, right? All these things. It's more expensive to do work. I'll tell you what I go back to Rick. Yes, I'm hearing all of this and I'll tell you where my focus is. And I've really trying to recenter everybody is. If you understand the basics of your business, marketing, sales, retention, referrals, then you can't, you can, you can not only survive, but you can thrive through any time because people will pay for what they value. Now we can get in the weeds on this and I'm happy to, but people will pay for what they value. And in this economy with all those things you're talking about and people having to make more and more tighter, tighter, squeezing down all the. Are you going to be an option that they say yes to or is it going to be, sorry, I don't have enough money, you're too expensive, I can't use you. Right. How are you going to make sure people continue to prioritize their health and the services you offer them for their health? So if we have the business basics down, dude, sales, sorry, marketing, sales, retention, referral, then we can, we can do short term. This is why I like my topic for pps. We can make short term decisions today to drive more revenue with an eye on the future and make sure we're building a stable asset for the future.

Yeah, yeah, but, but, but, yeah, but, but, but, but you know, like long term that makes it. But short term with all these, all these things going on like, like, you know, like most of the clinic owners I speak with in our community, you know, we got over a thousand clinics in our community. Like they're kind of suffocated with some of the decision making, right? Just because like, you know, things are getting more expensive and, and you know, like, you know, the front desk wages and the labor shortage, like, you know, how can you even get them to do the job or get them to show up when, when there's all these things going on and is that what you're seeing with like the kind of the people you're working with right now, Jerry?

Yes. And let me say this, and this is where I'm, I'm glad and happy with the work I was doing prior to all this. Right? So the last 15 years and the work I did in my business that got me Here is I saw an opportunity within my own business to draw more value out of what we were already doing. So right. We talk about, well, hiring people and I can't find team And I'm like, no, I'm just talking about taking what you already have. So no new hires, no new services, no new products currently and examining where is the leak out of my company. So I didn't say this earlier, but this is part of it. If I understand marketing, sales and retention and I understand my KPIs and I understand the movement of a client patient through my business, then I can find the money leaks. I was on a call, let me give you an example. Literally on a call on Monday with a person with a fricking wonderful practice in northeast usa, right. Serving a great purpose out of network. So a lot of out of network. Some in network. A revenue per visit of 149 bucks, dude. Most people for this.

Yeah. That's amazing.

So check this out. But she called me, I need help. And I'm like, right? Seriously, I'm like, tell me what do you need help with? I'm worried. I want to. I've got the opportunity to get a bigger space. I haven't maxed the current space out in and I know I'm leaking money from the business, right. She's heard my stuff and she goes, I know I'm leaking money. So we did the work, dude. Now mind you, this is currently in her business. No new work to be done. These are people that have, I always like to say they raised their hands and said, I want to work with you, Rick. Right?

That's how it's three leaks that what were the top three.

So number one is the, is the first visit arrival is leak number one. Right. So and mind you, right so remember I'm a sell there for context. I'm a sales and retention guy, right. So I do look at their marketing and I look at the connectedness is the marketing drawing in the people that are going to get what they think they're going to get, right? I mean just like anything else. So first visit arrival is leak number one. Cancels is leak number two and leak number three is drop off. And so we found, we just ran her numbers. She is at her current arrival rate, she's leaking close to a month, dude. Close to $12,000 a month out of her business. Now I'm not saying, oh we're going to get you to 100%, dude. I'm just saying we're just going to close this gap 5 10%. And at her. At her volume, at her revenue per visit, at her current capacity, she's leaking about $12,000 a month out of that business. That's right.

That's why she didn't have to hire.

She didn't have to hire anybody. She doesn't have to buy anything. Don't run out and buy equipment. She has to. I don't. I haven't thought of the appropriate word because I like the word optimized. People hate it these days. But she has to take what she already has in place and fricking make sure it's a.

Well, that's optimized, man. You know? Right.

She needs to optimize. So. So as we look at inflation, as we look at rising costs, as we look at, oh, my God, my team wants more. I'm like, well, yeah, your team wants more, but you're spitting cash out, right? You're spitting money out through. Through your client's life cycle in your business. We can recoup some of this. You know what I love to do with this, Rick? So back to some of your student loan debt. Everything. Once we recoup some of this money, right? Because the top. We're going to increase top line and bottom line with this because there's no added expense in here. So I say you're going to have more opportunities to create a bonus program. You're going to have more opportunities to give raises. You. You're going to have more opportunities to reinvest back into the business, right? Put a savings account. Right? I make sure everybody's putting cash away. So. So those, those are the things. Those are the conversations I'm having. And whether it's inflation, the economy, right? Oh, my God, I'm scared about this. Right? What, are we headed towards another recession? I'm like, you got to make sure you know where your cash is first, man.

Yeah, 100%. And this is. I see this a lot, too, is that most people don't have the financial visibility. Visibility. To actually know words leak.

And 100%, dude, is that.

I think as entrepreneurs, as CEOs, we're always trying to, like, search for the shiny object syndrome. Whether it's like marketing or like this other thing I learned from this, like, I listen to this podcast or I listen to this, like, YouTube. By the end of the day, like, you know, you're not focusing on just like the core basics of your business, you know, and our business do, whether you own a physical therapy clinic or a chiropractic clinic or a massage clinic or A health clinic. It's a very simple business. You know?

It is, dude. It's a business. So that means there are business principles that need to be applied. And I'm finding. I never say. You know, I love to talk extremes, but let's go back to the middle. Most of my best clients, by the way, Rick, and I think you would say this, too. Most of my best clients, when we go through. Right. The first thing I do with my clients is we go through a current state evaluation. I look at. Show me your marketing.

Okay.

How are these people moving in? Right? How are they coming into your universe? Okay. And then how are they connecting with your sales team? Okay. And then how are they moving to this? As we look at this, I'm like, you're 75% of the way there. We're just, you know, I tell people all the time, we are.

Clinics don't have a sales team. What are you talking about?

That too, dude.

Who. Who's on. Who's on. Who's on your. Who's on a sales team at a clinic, Jerry, I don't understand.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, by the way, this. This is the number. Every time I do a talk, whether it's like 300 or 500 people, I get people to raise their hand. How many people have a sales team? No one puts their hands up.

Yeah, dude, they.

The second question I ask is like, how many people have a front desk who answers the phone and everyone puts their hand up?

Yeah, dude, yeah. Yep, yep. So, I mean, that's. Yeah, that's the work to be done. But here, let me just give some credit. People are like 75% of the way there. I swear to God, all the time. You know, the really off the rails stuff, I'm like, wow. But most of the people I talk to, I'm like, man, you got. You know, if we checked off 1 through 10, you're only missing, like, you know, 3, 7, and 8. So I'm like, we can make this work. Now, mind you, you and I both know they're all missing the sales portion of it, dude. So I'm like, we got a big hole here to plug upstream, right? Because you're losing again. I say, hi, my name's Jerry. I want to do business with you. Click. Right? I'm like, how many potential client customers can you hang up on, Right?

Yeah, but how can you. How can you actually do this, right, when. When there's, like, this massive, like, labor shortage going on and, like, and the front desk don't get paid very well? So the quality of your, of your applicants or the people that you have at your clinic, you know, like, aren't really incentivized or motivated to do, you know, because it's just tough, right? You know?

Yeah. Yeah.

And once again, when I think about like salespeople in other organizations, I think about salespeople like in, in my business or I think about salespeople like in other entrepreneurs. Business salespeople get paid more than the CEO, right? Or the salespeople get paid a lot. Whereas like the salespeople at a physical therapy clinic or a massage clinic or a chiropractic clinic, they get paid like minimum wage and maybe a couple dollars more.

When I first started doing this work, my goal, my, a number one goal is to create the first hundred thousand dollar front desk person. And you and I both know that would be the person doing the sales portion of that. When I started doing this six, seven, eight years ago, I said I want to create $100,000 front desk person because they're driving so much value, so much business into the business and everybody that. So two things, Rick. You know, part of it is they're hired into the wrong role. So people, dude, you know, so you, you ask everybody who's your sales team, who's your front desk team, and then who would pay their front desk less if they could? Everybody keep their hand up. So they don't, they don't understand the roles. The, the sales role of the front desk, the customer service role of the front desk, the admin and back office role, the front desk. So they're hiring people, right? They bunch them all up, they throw them into the bowl, they stir it up and go do all these tasks. And we know fricking sells is in there. And I'm like, you just bundled everybody together and said, grow the business. I'm like, and you don't realize you said that. But this is where the growth's coming from right here. How many leads do you have this month? Right? You know, how many people, how many.

Closes did you have? What is the conversion rate? You know, and then all the other like metrics that show. So, so what do you like, this is kind of like the chicken and egg. You're sales team, but you're not paying them as a sales team. In essence, you've attracted like, whether it's a medical office assistant or like a minimum wage, like front desk that get paid a couple bucks more and you expect them to do all these things, plus clothes and do all this stuff.

There you go. That's the thing. I always make them show me all the tasks. Oh, they got to do all this. And I went, oh, here's answer phone calls buried in the middle. I'm like, what's most important? You know, I'm looking, I'm like, what's most important on this list? And they're like, all of it. And I'm like, no, you know, yeah, you're right. They pile it on there. And so again, let me ask you a practical thing.

Like, I just want to cut to it, right? So if the clinic can afford the dollars, right, you know, let's just say their finances, like, aren't great, you know. You know, owner's not making a lot of money, right? Like, you have like, let's just say, like, what do you do in this scenario? Like, how, how can you, how can you pay your front desk more to do these? Like, call it like sales activities, right?

I'm so, so we got two options here. So this is good because I get on a call, I'll get on a call with someone. Rick, Rick Lau's on the phone, right? And I say, tell, you know, tell me why. Tell me why you reached out to me. I said, you know, I usually say, hey, I checked out your website. I see roughly through your website what you're doing, what kind of business, the size of your team. You tell me why you contact me. Oh, I need help with the front desk. I need more people arriving, whatever, by the end of that call. Basically, Rick, I brought you one of two directions. Either I've got you to take the next step and talk about the money leaks in your business. So step one is I'm going to find the leaks in the business to finance you, Rick, improving your business at the front end, right? Does that make sense to you? So I'm going to find the money leak, or here's the second one is I'm going to turn you on to my outsourced virtual front desk company where I do all the hiring, I do all the sales training, and I set them and drop them into your office to do that role in your company at a cost that is less than what you're currently paying. So, I mean, there are two options really, right? You know this. I mean, they're all over my IG fee, dude. There's all kinds of groups out there saying, hey, I, we can book you to the virtual salespeople, right? Well, I created a virtual sales front desk sales company for healthcare offices because. Because I got tired of people going, I have this person train them And I'm like, you didn't hire the right person. We can't train them in sales. They're not salespeople. So I went and I created a sales team that I now outsource to offices. Yet I'll tell you what, unless someone calls and says, I want to talk about your virtual company, I don't bring that up, dude. I don't. We talk about.

But what's another option that. What's another option outside of paying you, Jerry? Like, what can. What can a.

What can someone do? I would say, Rick, you and I both know the bottom, the bare minimum, and nobody does this. Two things, Rick. You need to start tracking the lead. You need to understand how many people are contacting you to do business. And the second thing you got to do. And I ain't saying this because I'm on the call with you, dude. I posted this last week. You must record your incoming calls. So if nothing else, Rick, if you said, I can't afford anything, you just gave me, what can I start doing, Jerry? I'd say start tracking every single lead into the business and. And find out what happened to them. They scheduled or they didn't, and then they arrived or they didn't. And I make them fill out, like, four things on each lead. That's it. Second, we have to have recorded calls. You will never improve it if you do not record the conversations.

Yeah. And so. So would it make sense to put them on some type of, like, compensation structure?

Oh, a hundred percent.

Where, like, you know, like, you know, so that you can pay them more. Right?

Yeah. So once you start tracking the leads, you. And once we have the feedback loop, the call recording, then I would say, right, here's what I do, Rick, to answer your question, I go back and go, okay, how many new patients a month to pay your bills? Boom. We look at that and I go, cool. So at what level are you willing to start bonus make paying commissions out, right? Yeah, dude, And I do this. I did this, literally one of my clients yesterday, dude. We bust how many.

How many owners? How many. How many owners in our. How many clinics in our. You think in the profession actually creates a bonus structure for their testing? Yeah.

You think it's like, I'm going to give you a percentage, you give me a number, and I'll tell you if it's higher or lower.

You think it's more than 10%?

No, it's less than 5%, dudes. It's less than 5%.

Interesting.

People do not understand the leverage and the ROI of their front desk currently.

I agree.

Because they do not view it as a revenue generator. It's a cost center. And I'm like, you are not allowed to say that. You are not allowed to tell me that your front desk is not a revenue generator.

Yeah, cool. Yeah. Which leads to my, you know, my next question I want to ask you is that like, you know, last year went to pps, I saw like the rise of all these like kiosks, you know, you know, it's kind of going to McDonald's. It was like, it was like one of the byproducts of McDonald's, like, of COVID Right. You know, we're starting using more QR codes. You know, we started using like, you know, seeing more kiosks or touch screens and like, what are your, your thoughts on like having these kiosks where you talk to your screen, you know, and there's all these companies I'm not going to mention in it, but like, you know, but what is your thoughts about this, like, within the profession, within the industry, you know? Right. And I think the value prop that I hear a lot of these companies talk about is like, oh, it's going to actually it's designed where like it's going to cut like your front desk cost down. Right. So you're already paying them like crap. So we're saying like you're gonna actually even.

Yeah, well, I think by the way, everybody, if you're watching and listening to this, we have not discussed this. And I guarantee you just by how Rick's presenting this, we align on this. Yeah, you're taking the lowest paid, by the way, the least amount of roi, Right. It's your lowest paid employee already and you're going to take what, another dollar or two off? I mean, my God, if you're making business decisions like that, then please call me. I am a revenue first person. Revenue more revenue solves all business problems. That, that's my model.

So the kiosk, what is the future?

Yeah, well, no, no, no, I'm going back to this. I'm going back to this. So revenue solves all problems. So if you come to me and say I got to cut the cost of my front desk, I'm going to go, how much are they generating you? How much is each of those people? Because I'm going to look at the roi, right? And I'm probably going to cut, by the way, I'm going to say this out loud. I'm probably going to cut a provider before I cut a good front desk person. Really you want to do. It's math. If I have a $20, that's a tough one.

I think I would cut a friend. That's before.

Well that's good. You said, you asked me before, is anything taboo? And I said no. So here we go. Dude, I would cut, I would possibly. But I'm going to run the numbers, Rick, right? We're going to look at everything and.

So I would cut a really bad provider, right.

I would not make a knee.

Amazing. Front desk.

Let's go back to your question. Let's go back to your question. I would not show up at a conference, see a computer screen and go shit, I got to get rid of my friend desk without running the numbers, right? So what do I say?

The numbers make sense. And then by the way, like I just want to show them like the model that I see that is attractive is for the multi locations where you got three to five locations. So instead of you. And let's just say each clinic has three, you know, full time equivalents running the thing like, you know, maybe you only need like one and a half. Maybe you need like one and then, and then, and then they share the offices or you have like a central one that manages like you got a couple.

You got it dude. And by the way there, I will. There is value in this. So my gut is people are choosing it for the wrong reason. You just started describing examples and we'd sit down and look at this and run the numbers. But you know what? There's going to be someone at the next level up that's tr. That is a highly trained in office person or sorry, highly trained person in their role. So here's the thing with the kiosks. If you schedule, if Rick calls me and I schedule rick Lau for 10 o' clock for PT on Thursday and I run him through the same bullshit. Remember I do secret callers all the time. And I hang up the phone and I don't tell Rick what's going to happen next and he shows up at the office with a blank screen. There's going to be, it's not going to be the right experience. So there is a system and processes in place for man. So people say, well what am I going to do with this? And I'm like, just tell the fucking people when they show up there'll be a screen and when they walk in there'll be a live person on there and what they have to do Next, that solves 51% of the problems. So again your original question was as a Knee jerk reaction to cutting costs. It is a horrible idea. Taking people, taking people out of your business as a knee jerk reaction and replacing them with a screen will not solve your problem. If you go Back to Rick's example.

3, 4%, you know, I had three.

I have three offices. I've got a main. Right. All my phones are manned. They get a live person when they call. We've set up the systems to make sure they understand what's going to happen when they arrive. The providers know you will be very successful in this model.

Okay, so interesting.

You know, again, I have a problem with the knee jerk. We're going to cut our Costco, buy five of these.

Well, here's the thing is that like, you know, when I think about the front desk, when I think about like the community I work with, you know, the front desk is such a pivotal role, you know, outside of like them converting like, you know, like doing the sales aspect of like converting that like lead into an appointment. They're also booking the entire plan of care. You know, they also are like selling the product. They're also, you know, like, also like having the call it the patient experience conversations to like, you know, like reassure them to answer any questions but also to be able to like get that Google review if they have a really good experience. I agree, dude.

Yeah, I agree.

And can that be replaced by like, like a screen, you know?

No, no, because I've talked to the people and they're not training those people to do that. So part, part of my thing here, I'm going to say this. I've talked with some people who want to get the screen. I said, why don't you get the screen and I'll, I'll train the person behind it, right? I'll train the person who understands that when Rick Lau walks in. Hi Rick, my name's Jerry. I know you're here to get back to the gym pain free and get out of that morning pain. Right. As mentioned, I appreciate you filling. I'm going to train them in a manner that you're like, wow, this was awesome. That's all I want, dude. So again, it's not about the hardware, it's not about the software. It's about integrating the people and the systems with it. Dude, you and I, I bring this up like once a month. I remember when texting first came out and made available every PT clinic in the world bought texting capacity, right?

Tools.

And I kept going. I'm like, what are you guys doing with this? Oh, we text everybody. I'm like, did you ask them if they want to text? Oh, no, we just text everybody, right? I'm like, I wouldn't buy a tool if my client, if my clientele, if my customers weren't telling me they wanted. And everybody. Oh, everybody wants text. I'm like, well, yeah, the ones who tell you they want it, that's who gets the text. Right? We have such a knee jerk reaction due to all this stuff. I'll buy the. I'm going to buy the infrared machine. I'm like, you don't even know what the fuck's going on with your other plans of care right now, dude.

Yeah. You know, interesting.

Again, there's value in all this. Is there value in a red wave laser? Yes. Is there value in a front desk screen? Yes. In the example you said. Yet the problem is people don't understand. You said it. The financial transparency. Do they know what numbers and metrics to look at? Yeah, this is back to the business basics, dude.

Yeah, interesting. Hey, Jerry, so what do you do? I'm gonna go back to reimbursements. Right. You know, what do you do if you live in a state? You know, I'm just gonna say New Jersey because I, I met this owner and he was like on his, his rates was like 36 bucks.

Yeah, dude.

For a visit. Like, what do you do if you own a clinic? And I'm not, I'm not going that extreme because I think, you know, like, you know, but there's some states that are like, Maybe it's not 36, but maybe it's like 50, maybe it's 80. And every single year is going around low. Like, what do you, what do you do? And then on top of that you got inflation. Like, you know, like, what do you do with a practice like that? 36 bucks from Medicaid or Medicare.

So I had, I've had a good run with a client over the last year. They signed me up originally to help out with the front end. They were all in network.

Yeah.

About three, four months in, they said, we've run some numbers and we really have to go out and network with this one patient. Patient with this one provider insurance. Sorry, guys.

Yeah, right.

And I said, great, I can help you guys with that. And the going because they started to run the numbers. And, you know, I did this and I'm going to pat myself on the back. I did this over 15 years ago. Right. I made a business decision because payment got too low, and we went out and network and that's how my journey started. And What I found was nothing. Again. They start to get right. It's just like the screen for the, for the waiting area. I mean they just started making, you know, we're gonna have to change this, we're gonna have to change that. I'm like, oh, you gotta change. It's the sales process, dude.

What was the difference in the rates?

Oh, almost doubled, dude.

Okay, so yeah, from 36 to 72, right?

No, went from like 70 to 140, dude.

Okay, but then, but then you just get less leads. So you gotta spend more time with the sale.

No, no, no, they don't get less leads. This is the dill dude, because you don't know. See, this is, this, this could be a whole nother show. And this, this goes back my world, my world. Everything I do, dude, is about managing and setting expectations and building trust. So I'm not going to put I'm an in network clinic. I'm an out in network clinic. On my website. I'm going to put why you should choose me on my website, right?

You're run good marketing, so you're gonna get the lead, right?

So, and so I'm going to train my sales team. Your sales team. And this is what I do with the group on how to have a conversation with Rick when he calls in about his low back pain to turn this into a conversation about Rick and his low back pain, not the insurance and when we do this. So by the way, the clinic I'm working with, they, they went out of network, right? We've been training the front desk. We've been going through the process. By the way, we included a step. Most, most American clinics will say, we'll give you your benefits when you arrive. We included a step where we say we can check your cost. So if you have your insurance information, we'll get your costs or sorry, we'll get your benefits and we'll get you the cost to do physical therapy here. And so we'll get you on the schedule. But I'm going to call you two days before your visit with your cost. Would you like your cost? You got to realize, Rick, you're being promised something that happens less than 1% in all of healthcare in America. So when I so remember this was. This is preceded by a value conversation where Rick hears that the expert here, Dr. Jane Doe, works with people with shoulder pain who want to get back to CrossFit. Rick heard that Dr. Jane Doe is currently treating people who have shoulder pain who want. So then I promise you your costs and you go, yeah, on the cost, call back, I tell you, we're out of network. But I have all your benefits. This will be your cost. And I'm going to tell you right now, dude, the conversion rate is far greater than you think it is. The conversion rate at the one clinic I'm working with is up over 80%. After they went out of network, of course they thought they were going to.

Have to shut down.

Nobody.

But did they get the same amount of phone calls, Jerry?

Yeah, dude, same leads. Same leads. Because they're not marketing that they're out of network.

Yeah, okay.

Okay. So.

So as long as. As long as you are still strong with, like, marketing, whether online or.

Oh, yeah, dude. Oh, yeah, the marketing again.

But let's be honest. Like, that needs to be. That needs to be a criteria, right?

100%. Marketing and sales have to be. We're back to the business principles, dude. If you. If you're not doing good marketing, if you don't have a sales team and you're currently getting $36 and you want to go out of network, you will fail. You'll close down and you'll blame the system. And I'll go, yes.

And that's what most people do.

Marketing and sales.

This is what most people are doing, right?

And I'm telling you right here. But here's something cool you said. So think about this, and I get these owners to just put this in your head. If we double your price, then you could see half the patients to achieve the same exact revenue goals, and everybody just freezes. And I'm like, you realize that I said, we're not going to lose half of the load. I said. I said, I'll guarantee you we won't lose because of the training, dude. I'm like, we're not going to lose half of the patients and even the lower ones maybe lose 30.

It's just a conversion rate, you know.

And they're still running. Their revenue's running higher with less volume. I'm like, here's the thing, Jerry.

If you're saying you could dub. If you could go from 70 to, like, 140, why could you not find a compensation structure to bonus out your.

Well, this is what I'm trying to get them to do next, dude. Because by the way, one of these people that I trained up or that they had that we've trained up. We've trained up. I say, I. Because I came in to help, but it was we, dude, they better start bonusing her, because if she goes somewhere.

Else, they're going to get what is the most highest paid front desk you've worked with so far or you've seen the highest paid?

I don't know, dude. You're gonna make me whatever I say next? Yeah, I don't know dude.

Like, like 25 bucks an hour, 30 bucks?

Yeah, probably. But with comp. You mean with like a bonus structure.

Or just straight comp, you know, like.

You know, yeah, everything. It's got to be variable. Like you know, it's funny you say this number, most people listen to this call are gonna freak out. But I'm gonna like. But it's tied back to their production. They're there. Right.

So what's the number? One of the most frequently asked questions I get is how can you help me grow my clinic? So every year we put together an annual event called the Clinic Boss Summit. It's basically the Woodstock for everyone interested in growing or selling your multi million dollar practice. You're going to meet over 300 of the world's top clinic owners. The network is going to be insane. It's three days. You're going to learn everything from marketing, finance, HR recruitment and cellular clinic. And the best part is going to be Orlando, Florida on January 26th is one of my favorite cities to hang out in January because you get the sunshine, palm trees and best theme parks we usually sell every year within the first couple of months. So grab your tickets now. Go to clinicxl.com to grab more details. 25 30. That's, that's 30.

25 30. Probably maybe. Yeah, let's just say 30. I was going to say maybe 30.

30. 70. Is that 70k a year?

I do not know dude.

60. That's 60,062. Yeah, yeah. It's. It's almost like the, it's almost the price as the, as a, as a new grad physical therapist coming out.

Yeah. And again when, when it's tied to. Right. And again I want everybody to realize they're getting that because we can track leads to arrive to actual revenue to. To less cancel.

It has to be tied back to getting paid more. Right.

So you are correct. Well here, here, here. It's got to tie back to better. A better downstream impact. Whether it's less cancels, less no shows, less drop offs is more revenue. Right?

Interesting.

By the way, the biggest lie in America. Dude, you didn't ask the biggest lie in America. The biggest, the, the worst question you could ask any physio business owner in America because they will make it up and they will justify anything is ask them Their council rate, dude, they've all redefined it. And so slots, empty slots, wait lists. Right. So that's why I work on, like, lead arrived. Right. Drop off. I don't. Bonus reschedules, dude, because it's a. It's.

It.

Yeah, yeah. I. I don't know.

Yeah, so let's just say, like, you know, if your best salesperson is being 30 bucks an hour, like, what do you think their base. What would their base paid be?

Well, that's the thing, dude. That's the thing. You and I both know you got.

A buck space with a 10 bonus.

You got a boat. So, you know, I talked to someone recently and I said, we were talking about this because they want to hire someone. I said, what are they going to be comfortable with? Well, they really want 20. And I said, well, we can't. No salesperson is going to come in and be comfortable with their salary because they want to drive commission. Right? So I said, in order to find the right person, you're going to drop that down like three or four bucks. Right. At least 13. I'm sorry, 17. $16 an hour with an upside of. Right. They asked for 20. I'd show them on paper that their upside could be 25, 30 bucks, dude. Yeah.

So sell the OTE your total comp, you know, Right. With a base of this, like, say it's 17. But hey, if you hit this type of stuff, it would be like 20 or 25 or 30 or whatever it is.

And by the way, I'm going to show them because I want you and I both know, I want them looking at the lead log. I want them looking at what the date is. I want them looking at their deliverable and going, I got to chase down. If I chase down three more, it's worth. Right? It's worth big money to me. It's worth big money to the business.

And then, you know, ideal world. Is that bonused out? Like, is that measured quarterly or is that measured weekly? Or like.

Yeah, that's good.

Is it paid out weekly, monthly, quarterly?

Paid out, right? Paid out. It's major, dude. I sleep with those numbers.

Is it paid out daily?

No. Yeah, dude.

Right?

No, I think with the volume and to make sure everything, you know, we're all. We're all on the up and up and above board. I think it needs to be paid. My personal opinion tracked daily and weekly and monthly. Paid out quarterly.

Paid out quarterly. Because here's the thing I've always struggled with this, is that, like, if you pay out quarterly, like, you're not, like, it's not cash in hand, you know.

Like, I hear you. I hear you, dude.

Monthly allows, like, monthly allows them to be like. You'll be able to see that behavior change more quickly. Right?

I. I don't disagree.

However, you can't balance your, like, you know, you can't balance your books quick enough. You can't, like.

Yeah, well, and that's a problem, right? So you got to build in. So I say even if you and I know this is what you're thinking, but I want people to hear this. If you're going to bonus monthly, it's got to be paid out on like the seventh or, you know, so you have time, you got a little time to make sure everything's balanced and get it to where it is. All right, I like that idea, dude. I like it. And this is what I'm trying to move everybody towards, dude, everybody. And again, it goes back to right. In this economy, people are looking for a bigger upside, and they're asking for that huge upside. And I'm like, how about I deliver you a bigger upside? But you got to start, right? You got to prove to me you can do it.

Yeah.

And by the way, you and I both know any salesperson people more, but.

Also spec more, right? You are correct. And if they don't deliver, if they don't deliver, then I'll know within a month or two. Right. I'll know within 30 days, to be honest. Right. That, you know, you learn really value within 30. Then like, I want them out anyways. Right.

You know, to be honest.

Right. Why don't. Why do I want a B player and just pay to mediocre. I rather pay like, I rather have someone an A player. Pay them well. Because by the time you train and mentor someone, like, you know, you don't really get the value of them until like six or, like six or one year.

You know, this is, you know, in these. This is what's kind of cool. Creating. And I'm speaking about this from a business perspective. I'm not pitching this to anybody. Yeah, I'm bringing it up. But this is what I enjoy about the company. I created this front desk sell solutions company. Dude, is. Is I get to set up. So we. Actually here's something else is interesting. If you came to me and said, jerry, I want your front desk person, I want them to start as soon as they can. It'd be 30 days. Because I'm going to train them. They come from a sales background. So I'm going to train Them in my sales process and then we're going to onboard them to your clinic. So it's going to be, I say everybody, right? We're going to set a start date of 30 days out. I said we won't start later than that. We may start a little earlier. But I really pride myself and my partner on the, on the front end process. We've set up for just this so that we're spending that time to make sure, right, that what you look on the resume.

What do you look on the resume?

Like, I'm just looking for. I'm looking for sales experience, dude. That's it. I don't care.

What experience? Like selling clothes at a.

No, I don't care, dude.

What do you mean by sales experience?

I don't want. I don't want speed dial, dude. And we started with speed dial and that didn't pan out. So I want people having conversations with people, right? Commissions, things like that were commissioned, like.

Head hunting jobs or like, like what types of industries are you.

Are you finding everything? And God, dude, I always laugh when I talk to some people because I'm like, we've probably talked before, right? They've worked for Citibank and they probably have been. Some of the people, some of the other people have talked to, they've worked for Wells Fargo, right?

All of it, dude.

Yeah, they come from all these.

What about personal trainers? What's your thoughts about personal trainers?

Well, my thing is. No, yeah, see, well, that's a good question, but you and I both know it's like saying I want a good salesperson and personal trainer. I'm like, but they're not all great salespeople, right? They're good personal trainers. So I want people been making, been getting paid, making their living on the phone, dude.

Okay, okay, so they have experience with like actually like closing and KPIs, right?

Correct, correct, yeah. Accountabilities, dude. You know what?

Like personal trainers, if you go to personal trainers, all like these like big fitness centers, like they are salespeople.

Yeah, they are, dude. And I hear you and I know why you brought that up. I'm meaning I agree with you because they got all of them. Nobody's guaranteed anything in that world, dude.

No, no, it's like they get minimum wage or they get a cut of commission. Like they are selling memberships like crazy, right? You know, so.

And, and yeah, it's funny because at my gym they're everywhere and I can tell, right? And I always like to see, dude, because. Right, I'll show Up to the same personal trainers. I always like to see who they've figured out is their target client. And the smart ones aren't working out with a bunch of different people.

Right.

Meaning they find the people that they connect with that they can get. And by the way, when I say results, I'm using a broad term here, but the results they can get, and they make sure tag their ideal client, and those are the people they look for. And we could go back to the physio world, dude, they're not. They're not taking anybody walks in the door. They know who they can be successful with.

All right, cool.

So my take home. No, real quick, my take home is back to that first question. Understanding the marketing, sales, and retention of your business is the best defense you can set up in 2023 and 2024.

Yeah, and 24 and 2000. It's the basic principles of running a business, you know?

Right.

It is Marketing, sales, and reducing churn.

You got it.

So, Jerry, last question. If.

If.

Let's just go back to that scenario. You own a clinic in Jersey, you know, like declining reimbursements. You know, you're in network, right. You know, and if you only have $1,000 to spend. Okay, how would you spend it? How would you spend it to grow your sales for next month? You know, what would you do if you had a thousand bucks to actually get a ROI next month for your clinic in Jersey?

You know what? I'd reinvest it. I'd reinvest it into a reactivation campaign, dude. I'd go after my current and past clients.

Okay, and then what would you say when you call them?

I would hope I'd already have a program in place, my man. So let's say we already have a program in place and. Right. They've had some drip emails and maybe some calls from the providers.

So you would get the providers to do. Or you get the front desk to do it? Both. Okay.

And then I'd let them work together. Dude, I'd want them working together. Right? Because some of them.

A thousand dollars paid out to them for the conversion. Is that. Is like. Is that. How would you use it? Like, what do you mean by like?

Like, oh, yeah, we could do that. Because. Right. So we could say, theoretically, it's there, it's time, they're already paid for. So. Yeah. So instead of taking that thousand. Thanks for asking that. Instead of taking that thousand and going, let's get $1,000 worth of Facebook ads or something, I would say, okay, team, I'd get the team together. I've got $1,000 to pay out. And here's how we're going to structure it, right. And it'll be a recapture or a reactivation campaign. And so I would set up a program. I love this. You can't go to this well too often though. So I like this because you can use it maybe one at max, twice a year max. But I think even twice. But I love a campaign.

How far back would you go? How far back would you go?

I'd probably go back 12 months.

At least 12 months. Okay.

Yeah. And then what I would also do is I'd want. I'd probably see here, here's where I'd split it up. I'd get the pts to call like people they discharge two, three months ago. I'd get the front desk to call the more. The farther out people and the, the reactivation.

Self discharge, you mean?

No, no, no discharge. No discharged. Yeah, I probably. Front desk would be doing probably self discharge and some discharge because by the way, some of the, you know, depending on the setup of the clinic, dude, if it was all one on one and everybody had a relationship, the providers do all the old ones and I'd get the front desk to call the self discharges. Right? Okay, here's, here's the campaign. I like it. And it was an email we used to send out and we always had good success. We filled all the slots, you know, and it went out something like this and I'm going to screw it up. But it was something like this, dude, where hey, we appreciate your past business. We appreciate the fact you chose us. We appreciate that you invested your time, money and energy and we want to give you something back. And this is what we're going to give you. And there were slots of recheck, a free recheck, like a 30 minute recheck with your old PT, right? So it's going to be with the same person to either check why you were here before. And again, I'm not saying it perfectly or for a new problem. Here was the kicker and this was one of the best add ons. Dude, here's the kicker and here's the value at the bottom it said this offer is only for you and can be used only for you, by you unless you're unavailable. Unless you know a friend or family member who can benefit from this more than you and they have to use your name when they use it. We had just as many as of those referrals as we did old people coming in that Bottom part, dude, was.

Actually like that one. It's kind of the ps, you know?

Yeah, dude, that bottom was the gold mine, I got to tell you, because it was probably half the business.

What do you think the conversion rate was? So it was half and half.

Oh, sorry. No, of the conversion, I'm going to say it converted 50%, dude.

Okay, 40.

50%.

But that's. But that's through email and calls. Like, did you have a sales cadence, like, of, like, how many calls, how many emails, or just, like, calls?

No, I think we sent out, like, at the time, it was emails, dude. And at the time. But I would. I would do calls. Now.

Was it an individual email or was it like, this E blast?

No, dude, you get. It was individualized. Yeah, it was individualized to you. Okay. We. We probably had a cadence of three.

Okay.

Because we timed it with the season two and an expiration date. Right. We put in an expiration date. We told you there were only so many slots. And we. We literally blocked the slots off, dude. And we followed up with people.

Yeah, I was just thinking about this. Well, like, I guess you could. I just don't understand why people just don't do it. Based on the ruling 12 and just.

Yeah. Monthly process. I agree. That should be done. That should be part of a regular program. So you asked me what I do. Right. And that.

Yes, you're right. We're talking about Jersey, 35 bucks. Right.

You know, and by the way, I better have been dripping stuff out to people anyway, right? In the meantime, blah, blah, blah. But let's say you just walked in and you said, here, but you have to use it. Within 30 days, I'd be, boom. This is what we're doing. We're doing it.

I actually love that. I love the P.S. the very bottoms. Like, hey, that was the gold mine.

That was the gold.

That was. That was gold.

That was not. I get no credit for that. Someone else told.

I'm going to give you the credit. Everyone's giving you the credit. All 23,000 people who listen to this are going to give you the credit. That was gold. Yeah. Jerry, how do people find out more about you, you know, and what you do?

I think my favorite place for people to go. So if you type in Jerry, J E R R Y D U R H A M P T. That is my Instagram handle. That's my Twitter handle. I have a business Facebook page. Instagram, Twitter. Oh, and my YouTube. And I. My YouTube has over 155 videos now. And if you want to Learn or hear more of this stuff. Right? Like this. Discussions around how to turn your front desk into a sales expert, how to define the three roles of your front desk. I don't think I talked much about how to set up bonus programs, but all that other stuff, the work to be done, it's all there for free. I ain't going to ask you for an email. I'm not going to ask you for anything. And boy, if you want to bury your head in that. And I get emails from people. I'm having my front desk watch this for training. That's the best place to go.

Okay, cool. Awesome. Jerry, it was awesome having you on the show. And, and I just to remind everyone, Jerry's actually going to be at the Clinic Boss summit in Florida. It's going to be January 26th, right, Jerry? Like, it's going to be.

I'm excited. Dude, you put together a great group of people. I love the fact we talked about this offline. I'm going to bring this up. I love the fact that you're bringing in all kinds of people to speak. Dude, to me, this is the. That's a huge value to those people who show up. It's not the Rick Lau show. It ain't going to be Rick Lau. God bless you, Rick. But it ain't going to be the Rick Lau show for two days straight. Right? You. I've seen the agenda. I've seen the talk. I'm like, dude, how did you get all these people? How'd you find the time for all these people to speak? And so there's going to be value from so many different directions from so many different people. And I love the way you put that together. I'm serious, man.

Yeah, it's going to be.

Even if I wasn't on it, I'd still love the way you put it together.

You're going to learn from the top clinic owners in the world, you know, on.

I love it.

Recruitment got people from all over, marketing and sales. You know, those are the kind of the four big themes that we're talking about. So everyone, thanks for coming on the show. And we're gonna see everyone, like, next week, everybody. And so we got a. A juicy. A juicy speaker coming up. But yeah, Jerry, amazing. Nice chatting with you. And I'm gonna see you. I'm not gonna see you in. In. In Texas. I'm still in Italy, but I'm gonna definitely see you in Florida, right?

Yeah, definitely see you in Florida. And I thank you. And I love it because no matter what the title is dude. We're always going to digress to the front end sales team. So that's fun.

I'm the marketing guy, you're the sales guy. And yeah, right.

We're going to talk about step one and step two. Everybody's so worried, right? Everybody's worried about, oh, I got to train up my provider. I'm like, you're so far downstream, man. You've already lost all the money. So much stuff is leaked out. I'm like, you got to get back up front. Right. Who's your marketing attracting?

Conversions. Yeah, right.

Who's your marketing attracting? And do are they having the right sales conversation with them? And by the way, your providers will get better results if you do that. There's a big takeaway, dude.

Yeah. Awesome. All right. Thanks, Jerry.

Thank you, sir.

All right, take care, bud. If you found this helpful and want some free resources to help you be an even better clinic owner, head over to clinicbosstools.com we've got tons of free stuff on getting new patients, bone scripts, selling your clinic, managing clinical teams, and much more. Head over to clinicbosstools.com.