Opening a Downtown Clinic vs. Suburban Area with Raj Suppiah

Not I think whether it's suburb or city, it comes down to your customer. But I want to be in a growing area where people are moving to right. Where people who fit my brand personality are, are moving towards right.

How to get smarter in business and in life. This is the question and I'm on a journey get you that answer. I'm going to interview the world's top entrepreneurs and deconstruct their winning secrets. Going to talk about everything from marketing, money and living bucket list life. I'm Rick Lau, healthcare entrepreneur. I grew and exited my 127 locations in my 30s. Welcome to the clinic boss show. I like right here. So like welcome to the clinic boss show everyone. And today we got a special guest. We got Raj, the CEO, right. Of foundation physio in Toronto. You got seven clinics and you're also a business coach. So Raj, like how many, how much, how much people do you have? Like across the seven locations.

Am I coming through? Okay, Rick voice is good. Yeah, yeah, man. Long time good to catch up. It's been a while since we, since we chilled. How many people now we've probably got last accounted about 54 staff members across all our locations. Wow.

Wow. So you must had an insane Christmas party this year. Probably the biggest Christmas party we had.

It was, it was our biggest Christmas party we had. Yeah, it was, it was awesome. It was pretty fun. Yeah. Cool.

And, and what you guys do?

Oh, we rented our own like also, you know, like inflation restaurants in Toronto are mad expensive, 18% grad. I was not down with any of that stuff. So we rented a, a room, like a event space, did our own catering, awesome music, our own party. Kind of like our own private party. It was fun. It was really got. It was awesome. It was personable.

Well, knowing you Raj, like you are, you are, you are an entertainer and you're good at parties. So I'm, I don't care what did. He probably had a good time, right?

It was a good time. Yeah, it was a good time. That's the one job I still take over. You know, they always talk about delegate and elevate delegate, elevate Christmas party planning. Give it to me.

Yeah, I'm, I'm kind of the, yeah, I'm really into the experiences, you know.

Right.

Like it's, that's, that's hard to let go, you know, if you are kind of the culture guy. Right, you know?

Yeah. I love seeing my staff have a good time. I love seeing my staff like just enjoy themselves. I think that makes me feel Though.

So what's the ultimate success? Like, you know, like, is it like everyone gets drunk and like, there's scandalous stories and one talks about the next days? Like, how do you measure a successful Christmas party?

You know what? I think it's a, it's a feeling bad. You just, you just sit there, you watch the energy, and you just get a feeling, you know, smiles on people's faces, getting involved, people thanking you afterwards, people like, hey, thanks for the party. You know, just things like, just, just appreciation, I think, is, is. Is good. You know, you, you kind of, you know, you just know as, as a leader, as a culture person. You just know my.

When, when, when I used to run those clinic Christmas parties, like, the. For me, it was about, like, getting. I hate to say because we had a young team. It was about getting people, like, partying, getting drunk.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

100% outside their comfort zone and doing like, silly. That people just talk about for, like the entire year and then the next Christmas party or the next get together, like, oh, do you remember when Raj, like, took off his pants and then.

Oh, yeah, that would only be me. As all the stories revolve around Raj. Yeah, I look at the bottles, right? Like, like, like we finished four bottles of tequila. You know, we had our own bartender. You know, bartender said, like, the market should be ice, that, you know, people were having a good time. I'm kind of respectful of everyone's wishes. I understand not everybody drinks, not everybody's a big party. But the fact that those people came out and had a good time, you know, as you get bigger, you realize that, you know, not everyone's going to be like you, right? But they have a good time and they save good food and good environment. That's all that matters, right?

That's true. Because you bring up a good point because, like, you know, like, you know, like in a room, like, there are introverts, there's extroverts, right? You know, and what we just talked about works well for the introverts. But all those extroverts, like, the people in the corner, they're like, they don't drink and they're doing that. So how. And I think all clinics have kind of that dynamic, right?

You know, and as, as, as you also progress, right? Like, I don't, like, I don't work in one clinic anymore. I don't hire everybody directly from my clinics, right? So I have managers who hire and, and, and so, like, you know, the, the, the vibe and the energy of people change. It comes More down to the job description, whether you're really good for the job. Ultimately, there's still fit. A culture fit. But they're not all going to be partyers. And that's okay, right? That's okay.

And so. And so what's the strategy around the people who are, like, more introverted, you know, and, like, at those type of parties, how do you measure success for the introverts? Right?

I mean, listen, at the parties, I mean, that's where you got. You got to be. We have, you know, when they walked in, we had little, like, networking cards, right? And it was like little cards, like 10 different questions. Talk to somebody that. That doesn't work at your clinic and ask them a few of these questions. So we kind of had, like, you know, mix and mingle, forced events. Right. We had, like, little raffles and giveaways, so kind of things to get the team together. Because I also know what happens. You know, you have these parties. We have six clinics. What happens is everyone ends up sitting in their own little circles with their friends that they already work with. Right? So you kind of have to create. You do have to, you know, gerrymander in a little bit to make sure that people are intermingling with each other and getting to learn with each other from other clinics. That's the whole point of it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

Hey, Raj, I was just. I was just thinking about me and you. Like, do you remember the first time we met? When and where was it?

The first clinic accelerator conference, way back 2016, 17. No, it was a Paul Wright thing. Yeah, there you got it. Montreal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was. It was kind of like a reason for me to go to Montreal for a weekend. Yeah, it was Paul Wright's thing. It was. It was a good talk. I mean, it was one of those things that gets your mind, you know, circling a little bit about the business side.

That was back in the days when I so owned Clinic supplies Canada, you know, And I was like, oh, you. You gotta come to this event, you know? Right. I want you to be my sponsor, you know?

Yeah. But. Yeah, that's. That's.

That's when I met you for the very first time, you know? And I think back then you only had the one location, right?

We only had the one. Yeah, there would have been probably 2016 or 17. We might have only had the one at. On Front Street. Yeah.

Okay, cool. Yeah, that's. And I remember that.

And.

And who's the other guy? It was. Oh, man. It was Matt Sanchez, too, right?

Matt oh, Matt Sanchez. Yeah, he's done well, too. It's my buddy Matt.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, he's like Neuro Chargers, right.

You know, and I think Neuro Changers. Yeah.

And he's out in. Do you still talk to Matt or.

Oh, Matt. And Matt Sanchez and I, we go way back. We went to physio together, so we're good friends. Shout out. Shout out to Matt, Ryan Shea, Glenn Wark. We're all tight buddies from physio. Yeah.

I think he's in Florida right now.

Right.

You know, so I think he's.

I think he's pulling a Rick La, you know, mobile run, running his business in Canada, but living. Living all over the world. Yeah.

Yeah, well, yeah, totally. So right now, Raj, like, there's so much stuff going on right now, like the economy, like the news, like, you know, like what. What are you paying most attention to right now for, like, your business? Like, you know, like, what kind of worries you the most right now with just everything going on?

Question, man. What worries me the. You know, what? Like, actually, in all honesty, I'm less worried now than I was a year ago. A year ago we were getting into this problem, right, like, with people just seeing that life was getting expensive. Things were increases, you know, people needed personal, personally, people needed increases on their compensation. Staff was moving, you know, moving around. There was a lot of uncertainty. I think now we've almost learned to deal with the crap that we're in. Right. We've just accepted it. We've accepted that, you know, things are unaffordable. We've accepted that things are going to be expensive. We're accepted that, you know, interest rates are high. We've accepted it. And so we're a bit more stable. And I actually think, to be honest, Rick, I actually think.

Motivate, man.

No, no, I actually think that's motivating people more. I actually think that's creating more stability in the economy a little bit. Right. Like. Like there was all these.

Yeah, you see that in the front lines, like this, this, this, this. All the negativity that's going on in the world with, you know, politics, with interest rates, inflation, like, it's actually bringing your team together right now.

I think what, what's important is, is when. When something like that goes on, people want stability, right? Yes. And. And if, you know, I'm confident in ourselves as an employer, and I know as an employer, we are a stable place to work. We are a great place to work. And so I think that's going to keep people Engaged and on their toes. Right. People are, it's, it's gonna sound harsh from an employment. People are kind of afraid for their jobs. Google just had massive layoffs. Amazon just had massive layoffs. Warehouses are closing down. Right. Like people are kind of going to pay a bit more attention when your job is on the line. And you know, you know, you asked me like when was the, you know, when did I see the most like turnover and the hardest time with recruitment and retention was right after Covid. When the economy is good. Right. People are moving, people have different job opportunities. Now you don't see that as often because I have a job, I gotta maximize it, I gotta do well in it. Yeah, right. And as an employer you gotta make sure that your, your people, you know, that you as the leader are, you know, still have a good place to work. But yeah, we've always had that. But what I noticed is there's a lot of, you know, fluctuations in the market. So I think I'm not so worried as I am, Rick. I, I, I actually I'm taking a bit of a different approach. I'm going to be a bit more like, listen, like we got to catch up to our losses and we got to work harder. Right. So I'm using that as a motivating tool to push our team to do better for this year.

But yeah, you bring up a good point. You know, like especially, yeah, I think there's a lot of like uncertainty right now like in the economy 100, you know, there's the recession fear, that's non stop, you know, the roller coaster of the stock markets, you know, and obviously like interest rates and now like, you know, now like it's, you know, everyone's talking about the real estate crash too, you know. And so. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that you say that. You're right. Yeah. Like you know, that that creates, like, you know, that creates, that creates, you know, it's advantage for employers who run good businesses because it gives them stability.

Right, exactly. And we know that we provide a great place to work. We provide benefits for our staff, we have progression plans for our employees. We have all that built out so we know we're a good place for people to stay. Right? Yeah. There's no fancy tech or fancy vibey place that's coming in thanking our employees because you don't know what's gonna happen with those guys. Right. That might have happened three years ago, but I don't see that as off as much now. The market's kind of infiltrated. Like anybody that wanted to be an influencer or whatever and go own virtual, already did it. But now you're not going to see that uptake as much as you did two years ago. Two years ago.

Yeah, you're right. Beginning the year, there's a lot of.

Fear, you know, 100 beginning of last year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, but do you think it just like matches what the stock markets does, you know?

Like probably, yeah.

Like, you know like every beginning of the year, like everyone's like, like doomsday like you know, bending against the stock markets and ground this massive collapse. Yet like, you know, all the economists, all everyone was predicting, oh my gosh, like the, this go 100% in bonds, sell all your stocks, you know, like it's dead year and then like next thing know, 2023 was the best year for like crypto, like you know, like the nasdaq, you know, like, you know, and like the S and P. Like what the heck man?

Yeah, yeah. I, I, I mean it, it, we see a trickle down effect in our industry. I think like it trickles down probably much later than it would in bigger industries like tech finance. But it trickles down, right? Because who are our patients? Who lends us money? You know, who are vendors? Like it comes down to that, right? Who's our competitors? I mean we have betters who are owned by private equity and stuff like that. It all, it all trickles down. Right? So I think, I think, I think you do see it. 100. Yeah.

Cool. And so, so like how was business for you last year? Like did you, did you, did you, like, did you, how did you do compared to the previous year? Like double digit growth, like kind of.

Flat like, or I would say, like, I would say like okay, so barring aside, obviously we had a new, we opened a new clinic last year. Clinic. And there generally was even revenue growth because fees went up. Right. But proportionately I think it was pretty stable. Like it was stable. You know, there was a positive number growth. But I, I don't, you know, I, I like, like I, I liked your last post. Like I, I want excellence, right? And like it was a good growth, but it's not great for me. It's growth right now, but it's not great. And there was a few things that we have to, you know, that we have to work on. We got more new clients than ever, but we also dropped more new clients than ever. Right, okay, so it's like where's the growth? What do you mean?

You drop more new clients, like even.

As a company we got more new patients coming in the door, the most we've ever had. But then with that, proportionately we also lost more new patients. They didn't come back after their first or second or third appointment. Right. The drop off rate. Right. The drop off rate was proportionate. It was, it was not higher. It was, you know, got it, you know, some percentage points in 2022, slightly higher in 2023. But what that means is we're actually moving our drop off. We're still dropping the same amount of patients. Right. So you know, I look at those metrics. If we cut those down, then we have a significant growth. So was there growth? Yes. Was it where I want to be? No. You know, I think, I think that's just what I, you know, what I expect of myself, my company. Because I expect.

You think, do you think it's because you're in downtown Toronto and like in, and it hasn't recovered yet or, or, or, or it has, you know, just with.

Oh, I, I think, I think like I, you know, it's, it's a, you know, we can look deeper into those kind of metrics within our, within our business. From a funnel.

Your audio is still cutting out a little bit.

Is it better now? I think it's probably just what I moved my head too. Yeah.

Around you.

My ghetto, my ghetto laptop here. It's like so2, it's 2017. I haven't upgraded it. No, man. Like, to be honest, like I think from a, it could be that, it could be Toronto. It could be the, you know, kind of the squeezing of insurance plans. You know, like, like the market has changed a little bit. People are not as, you know, looking at us as, as a, you know, we are, I think we are kind of falling more into a luxury service than a need really. Right. Like, like I do, you know, and people are probably saving to use their physio money last. Like for example, like, you know, I was always a big, you know, you knew me, I was a big advocate for like no direct billing. Right. But I've had to change that messaging a little bit as I've seen, you know, people struggle a little bit more with their finances and their income. And so some of our newer clinics do take direct billing as to. Right. And just because it's, it's easy for the patient. So, you know, I do think there's a, a patient population change and, and downtown Toronto has probably, it's probably a harder market in terms of like, we have higher rent, we have, you know, high turnover, you know, Some stuff, it is harder. You know, the population can be more demanding. We also have a high turnover of clients. Like, clients. So not many people actually want to live downtown. They might live downtown for five to 10 years and they move away. Right. Or move out of the country, out of the city, out to the burbs if they can. So we don't retain patients, you know, maybe for 15, 20 years, you know, and so that.

That's interesting. I never really thought about that. You're right, you know, because if you think of the suburbs like that customer that you've seen, you would probably see their kids, their. And like, everyone, like, they'll come, like, you know, over a course of like their 15, 20 years. Like, you're right. But in downtown, everyone just goes in, gets, you know, gets their experience, and then they. They realize how expensive downtown is, they leave. Right?

Yeah, but I mean, part of my expansion plan, as you realize of my last two locations, we have been in Coco and Leide on both ends of the spectrum in Toronto, so in the suburbs. Right. To capture that market too. Right. We want to take our brand a little bit more kind of outside the city and. And find a more sustainable market. Yeah.

Just on that topic, like, maybe you could dive a little bit more that. Because I think. I think a lot of the viewers would love this. What do you think are the pros and cons of, like, having a clinic, like, in downtown, like, core versus, like, in the suburbs? Because I think. I think you just touched on something that a lot of people don't really think about. Like, you know, and I think you just brought it up. It was amazing, right?

Yeah, it's. It. You know what, it was so funny because I was opening my clinic. When we were opening our clinic in 2011, somebody asked, like, you know, somebody. Another guy I was talking to, I. I used to work in the suburbs, and he was opening his own clinic. And, you know, I think it was like, would you rather be. It was an interesting question. Would you rather be like, the pauper amongst kings, which is like the poorest of the rich or the richest of the poor, Right. And I was like, I'd rather be a pauper amongst kings. So I'd rather be a little fish in the big pond, because that big pond has so much more opportunity for me. I knew myself, right. I knew my rent is. Is twice as high as my buddies in the suburbs, right. And I can only charge a certain amount. I can maybe charge 5 to $10 more per session. Right. But by establishing our brand of the City, we kind of also established a name and I think it helped our brand elevate a little bit more by being a Toronto based brand.

Okay.

And being able to survive in Toronto, we don't have that. You know, we also try to turn Toronto people that live in the. Live in, live in downtown Toronto. It's still downtown, but we still want a community feel and that's still one of our core values is community. We still get involved in the community as much as we can. And downtown, as scary as it sounds, still has its communities and its enclaves, you know, and we've, we've captured that within our, within our, within our locations. We have Trinity Bellwoods, we have City Place, we have Corktown, and they're downtown clientele, but they still own those neighborhoods. Right. And we try to become a large part of it. So we still try to bring that suburban community feel into the, into the city. But I think by being in the city, it's helped us helps our brand elevate a bit more.

Yeah.

Recruitment has never been a problem because we get a large recruitment. So.

So that's a good pro. Being in downtown clinic recruitment. Like if you have a good brand, like you should not have a problem with like, you know, hiring like a young new grad that.

Yeah. Right out of, right out of school. Like we've always take students because it's so close to school. Retention can be a problem of the staff because if a staff wants to move away out into the suburbs after five to 10 years, then the commute becomes a little bit of a problem. Right. But that's okay. I haven't, I have a funnel just by our location. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think the other thing you said earlier was like, it's also the, the lifetime value of that client is also seems like it's much less in downtown versus like the suburbs. Right. You know, because in downtown, like, like what's. Like, you know, for what do you think the average. Like how many years do you think you'll get of like a typical patient in downtown? Right.

Well, that's interesting. That's actually interesting, Rick. Right. Because like you also Forget that before 2019, people went to work every day. Right? They went to the office every day. They were walking into rbc, they were walking into td, they were walking to every day. So you, you still could create a community with a lot of the office workers. Right. And people would come in every day and people were. You're talking also when people used to work for a company for like 15, 20 years, right?

Yeah.

So you still had like, you know, somewhat of a. Of a longer lifetime value. 20. 20 changed that, right? People went remote. People change jobs way more often. Every two, three years people are changing jobs. People went remote. So then it's like you don't really have that influx, that office worker that came every day to the bank, that came every day to the law firm. You don't have that office worker as much. So then we actually have to go to a more residential route, like rc, I would say, like our, you know, our two downtown clinics take, you know, take more of a residential, you know, we hit more of the residential market, which then put our lifetime value down. Right. So when we, you know, now we're probably looking at 700. I've created a lifetime value of 900.

How many years? How many years do you think?

About three years.

Three years and then they move into the suburbs. Is that, Is that kind of the model?

Sorry, I should say a yearly. I said, I said like a yearly value, about 900 over three years. Either they move or, or they move a job or, or, or, you know, something else happens. Like, like if they don't even move to the summers, man, like I get people that are working in Toronto for three years and they go back to India or they go back to Dubai, they go back to the States. Right. You see that happening a lot in Toronto. Like, people come in for contracts. Right?

So, so what would you, what number would you place? Like, would you say three years or five years?

Three to five. Is. Is that best? Right? Yeah. And then you different. Like I get all the old clients. Right, right. Because they're referred to me by.

Because you're the best therapist, specialist or whatever.

I still practice two days a week. So I, I've retained clients for like 10 years. Right. But you know, clients come in to see me. Right. Whereas let's say like newer, Newer therapists, maybe three years. Yeah. Interesting.

You know, I never thought about. You're right. You know, because I haven't ran a lot of downtown clinics before. But like, when you bring this up 100% because you're banking on the density and like the traffic flow of the office workers or everyone that wants to go downtown. But like, you know, yes, you could get 900 bucks, like a year, but this person only is there for three to five years before they move on to like a bigger job or another city, you know, because. Kind of like a launchpad, you know, until they have a family.

Right, you know, Exactly. And. And you also want to look at the funnel, right? Like every therapist gets a funnel differently based on their experience. Right? Like newer therapist, their funnel is going to be Google location, social media. Right. And so that's going to be a different patient. Like my funnel now is specifically referrals by specialists or by other physios. Right. So it's a very different patient. Those patients are like very, very like committed to getting better.

So how would you describe your ideal? Like downtown, like downtown patient. Is there like, is there like like two, three different types of like avatars that you see right now? Like it sounds like there's a, it sounds like there's an office worker and there is like someone residential.

Right.

Like you know, single person.

I mean you're, you're exactly asking the question that my marketing team ask. Right? Like who's your, who's your, you know, your icp, your ideal client profile. Right. And I would say it's like a 28 to 40 year old, you know, high disposable income, you know, cares about their health. And I have, you know, they follow certain brands and if you have to give me some tag words, I know what they, you know, they, they'd be purchasing. What brand, what brands?

Like Nike, like Lululemon.

Nike, Lululemon, Starbucks. A lot of independent brands too though, like independent Toronto brands. Like you know, they're buying Balls, Ax Coffee or, or you know, a lot like they support independence. You know, they're, they're probably going to be renters.

Are they, are they single or.

No, they could be single or dual income, but they're probably professionals. Okay, right. And then you know, we have, we have a lot of profiles built in. Right. For, for when we try to market. Yeah, we actually scaled actually this year. I actually scaled.

Is this the, is this male or female or like both?

So we, you know, a complete, you know, complete like, you know, transparency here. We, you know, my ideal client profile is a 28 to 40 year old female. Okay. Right. Professional female with disposable income. Right. Females are more concerned about their health. They tend to be a longer patient in your journey as well. And they tend to have, you know, they tend to be more aware of their health and tend to purchase more health related services and health related products than males do. Right. And females also become a best referral source, a male. One of the male's referral source was going to be a female in his or her life. Right.

So yeah, that's, that's interesting.

Right. We did actually change our ICP at the start of this year. Like I said when I was Running my, my metrics, I'm like, I'm seeing this drop off rates. I went to a marketing team. I'm like, let's scale our ICP up a little bit. Let's move the age range up. Let's, let's, we're at 25. Let's move up to 28. Because I want a bit more of a serious customer.

And did you say 48 or. You said 40?

40. Right. 28 to 40. Right. And then let's, let's, let's, you know, focus more like, you know, 70, 30 female male versus 60, 40. Let's, you know, and then let's push more knowledge on, on like on pelvic health, on female related topics for this year. Concussion. Because I think that's where, you know, that's going to help us capture a better long term, lifetime value patient.

Okay, cool. Yeah, this is, this is, that's interesting. You know, and so right now, like that's where you want to be. 7030, like where are you at right now? Is it more 50? 50 like, and you still, like half of that is still that office worker or.

Oh, sorry. I meant the 7030 to be like female to male when it comes to marketing. Right. When I want to put it, if I want my ad to show up on your phone, you know. Okay, that's what I'm looking at. But office, in terms of like, like, you know, I think it varies clinic to clinic. Right. Like my clinics in Etobicore are going to be suburbans, older, but there's also a lot of young families that are there. My downtown City Place clinic is a lot of office workers. And the conduits at Corktown are some residential condo lights.

Oh, I haven't heard that in a long time.

Right. So it varies clinic to clinic. And that's where some, you know, structured marketing per clinic is important.

Okay.

You know, Trinity Bellwoods, our newest location, that is, it's downtown, but that's an extremely residential area of downtown. It's a community. Yeah, right.

They have a great pub there.

Right. Like with.

I remember craft beer being really good there.

Right.

Trinity.

It's changed a lot, Rick. But yeah, like West Queen, West Trinity Bellwoods, like that area, you know, there's, there's families there. Right. But again, who am I trying to hit? The professionals. Right? The professional young families, they might not live in a big suburban house, but they're probably living in a, you know, fifty hundred square foot townhome.

So out of your seven clinics, how many are in downtown? Versus like in urban.

And it also depends what you define as downtown. But I would say in Toronto proper, it's four.

Four.

Okay. And then two are in Etobicok and one is at Lee side, which is North York. Okay, but two are. But they're all actually Toronto. If you look at it, it's still Toronto, but true. Get out of Metro. It's.

Yeah, but the people in a topo go. Probably live in a house.

Right. You know, then, yeah, they probably live in a house. There are condos popping up there too. Nobody can buy a house anymore in the gta. Yeah. Yeah.

So how would you describe the pros and cons of having a clinic now, like, in the suburbs?

You know, so that was a. That when we opened that location, that was a hard location for us to up because we had never done something like that before. Right. We were competing with suburban community clinics that had a large, like, you know, community following. Right. Like we were competing with people. The clinics that were only in Etobicoke that have been there for decades. Right. Yeah. And so now here comes this Toronto brand and we're trying to figure this stuff out. Right. So that. That took us a little bit of time to kind of navigate who do we market to, how do we talk? That was when I started realizing I have to install direct billing. Right. Because these people are used to purchasing their health a different way.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Right. And most of the referral sources in that ATOBA clinic came from physicians, whereas downtown, they came right from the web.

Oh, interesting. There you go. Right. You know, so.

Yeah, and so that changed the market too. Right. A physician type of patient is different than a Google patient or an SEO patient, so. Or a social media patient. So we had to look at it differently, market it differently. We had to install direct billing, make sure our administrators there. We're good with direct billing. Then that. That helped the business there a lot. You know, when WSIB kind of improved its rates, we started taking WSB there. We don't take WSB downtown, but we take WSB there.

But that's a good point, because in the suburban clinics, you probably have more MVAs and workers comp.

Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So. So you do have to structure it a little bit differently than downtown. And it's. It's no different. Right. You have a bunch of kids, every kid is still yours, but they all are a little bit different. And you got to treat, you know, what's the, what's. What's the Bill Belichick say? We're all equal, but different. Right, Right. Like, you know, we talk about, I.

I, I prefer one kid over the other kid. You know, I'm pre.

Right. And so, like, like, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna treat you equally, but I'm coach you differently. Right. I think Bill Belichick said that. Right. So he's like, when he looks at his team, he's the coach of the Patriots. Right. Like we're all equals. We all need to be coached differently. Right. Tom Brady needs to be coached differently than some young guy.

Yeah, 100%. If you enjoy my content, I read a clinic owner newsletter. I share with you what's trending right now in marketing, selling your business, recruitment operations, front desk, and more. Become a better clinic owner and join over 22,000 clinic owners who get this free newsletter each week. Go to clinicowner.com to sign up today.

So it's the same thing, right? That's the same with your staff and same with your clinics, right?

How about years? So downtown is three to five years, you said, like, what do you think? How many years do you think of, like, Like a LTV of a patient in the suburb? You think?

Oh, I think lifetime, probably 10, 15, once they're entered, right?

Yeah.

Right. Because once you're 40, where are you going? And you're 35, where you're sitting there, right? Yeah. You're established. Like, I never leave my neighborhood because my kids are established here, so I'll never move out of North York. It's where I live. Right. So if I was a patient by lease side clinic, I would keep going there. Right. I would have changed.

Have you noticed more referrals out of, like, the suburbs because of that, you know, like. Or do you see more referrals in the downtown clinic?

Referrals? What do you mean?

Like, like referrals from family and friends, you know?

Oh, I, I think that's consistent across both sides. I think that's consistent on both. I think we have about a 20% referral rate, and I think that's across.

The brand because my hunch was like, oh, maybe the suburbs would have more because, like, you know, just because, like, of the family.

Yeah, but there's, like I said, there's a large friend component that happens in the, in the Toronto community. Downtown Toronto. That's true. And the other thing too is like, you know, suburbans, Suburbanites are a little bit older, and older people don't, like, change. Right. So once they find, once they find something, you know, the whole new. The no new Friends philosophy. Right. Like I've been to this clinic once and I'm going to go again. Right. So multiple episodes of Care are also what you'll see happen more in the suburban clinics. I believe we'll have people that come back every year for different things where, you know, downtown. I've actually had people say, I wanted to give you guys a try. I went to insert my competitors here last year.

I went to my.

I want to. Oh, sure, Bio triangle. I know, but I wanted to give you guys a try. Right. So downtowners tend to try things different. Right? They want to try.

Yeah, Downtowners like to try things. They're more adventurous, right?

Yeah. And change. Right.

Like they're more ahead of the curve, you know?

Right, yeah. Right. So it's just a different market and, and because it's a different age, we're in a different phase of our life at that point.

What's the, what's your ideal patient in the suburbs now? Like for. We talk about that if.

I know, like 35 plus. Okay. Yeah, 35.

So the 35, like to 55, like female.

35 to 55. Professional. Yeah.

Female too, or.

No, I mean, I think that you can scale it back a little bit less, you know, because men, when they get older, tend to be more health conscious. Right.

So that one brand, would they wear Raj, would they still. Or Nike, Lululemon or are they wearing Old Navy?

Old Navy, Really? H m, yeah. What am I wearing here? I don't know what this is. But winners. Winners. It's not even a brand. We buy our brands from the, from the, from the, from the other shop. I'm not paying, I'm not paying Lululemon prices now. I got kids.

Bread's expensive, man, you know.

Right, yeah.

That'S a good one.

Starbucks, right. They're probably still drinking Starbucks, but they're not drinking like that fancy downtown coffee, right? Like six dollar coffee, right?

No, Tim Hortons. Tim Hortons, right.

You know, Well, I think that generation is probably a little bit scaled up a little bit more, you know, Probably.

Wow. This is, this is cool. This is very interesting conversation about the type of customer. So let me ask you.

So I remember, you know what? Sorry to cut you. I remember what you told us at what, you know, at one of our conferences is like open near a Starbucks. Yeah. Say that like, like way back over, you like be close to a Starbucks because you fig. Get a good customer. Right. I've kind of thought about that. Right. Like it's true. Right. And then when I start seeing Starbucks pop up in certain neighborhoods. Like, you know, like in Scarborough, where, you know, I used to grow up, there was never a Starbucks. And now there's a bunch of Starbucks popping up because the, the, the. The demographic is changing, right? People, young people are buying homes. They're like 30, 30, 40 year olds are buying homes there.

Yeah.

So it's like, hey, maybe a foundation should go there soon, right? Yeah.

This is something that I see like, in, like, you know, like I have the lecture of seeing obviously a lot of different types of clinics, but, like, when I look at all the suburbs that's happening in Alberta, like, or. Or the west and even like parts of Ontario is that they all live. Everyone just shops and go to that little, like, center, you know, where there's that, there's that Starbucks, there's that grocery store, there's that liquor store. It's everything that they need, you know, and, and I'm seeing like, and I, you know, I got the lecture of seeing like over a thousand P. Ls, so I'm seeing these pianos. Oh, my God, like, they're running two, $3 million clinics inside these, like, shopping complexes, like, right next to the Starbucks.

Right.

You know, and so, like, I was like, okay, there you go.

Yeah, exactly, Right? Yeah.

The liquor store, the, the, the. You know, and then once you're in there, you don't really leave that area. You know, everything is there. Like, you know, there's a, there's a little save on foods. There's a. Maybe you're lucky you got a Costco.

Right? So, yeah, yeah, it depends on your market. And so, you know, I also tell this when I tell my coaching clients, right? Like, your business is extremely different than mine. You need to know your market is right. Like, I market a certain way because I know who my customer is. But who's your customer? The very first question I asked them, I'm sure you would do is, who's your customer? Right? And if it's. If they're 35, 40 plus, then you got to try a different strategy or you don't need a shit ton of social media posts. You know, maybe you still need to talk to doctors. Maybe you need to be in a convenient area that, that they're near their shopping. Right? So it really depends on who your customers. And you need to know that from a market standpoint, what do you think.

Is easier if you're to start up a clinic from scratch? Raj? Is it easier to do it, like, in a suburb that's just starting off, or is it easier to Start in a subur that's existing or is it to start like somewhere in downtown Toronto.

That has a density, you know what like it. So this, it's a good question that you ask. And we look at southern Ontario and we see, we see this GTA area, we see it as like, you know, downtown is very fancy but like to be honest, there's still pockets of downtown Toronto that are growing, right? Because a lot of downtown Toronto wasn't as developed as it is now, right. And so where to answer your question is it's not suburb, it's not. I think whether it's suburb or city, it comes down to your customer. But I want to be in a growing area where people are, are moving to, right? Where people who fit my brand personality are, are moving towards, right? And that's what brought us to areas like Corktown, you know, and like I said, like maybe Scarborough is that in 10 years, maybe in 10 years from now Scarborough is like a 30 year old city, right? A lot of 30 year olds, right, with, with, with disposable income. I see that happening, you know, like, like I saw that with Trinity, Bellwoods, like West, Queen West. That area of Toronto was not like a very nice place like 10 years ago. It's boomed so much now, right? It's, it's taken over King west as a place that people want to go and have dinner and stuff like that, right? So you see that, you see that happening in Aussie, you see that happening in areas of the city that are changing a lot and going east, going north. So there's still growth to happen. You know, it's just so you gotta, you gotta follow that growth, I think, you know, so if you know your market, like, you know, I pay attention to what's happening in Toronto where I want to be and so that, you know, that is kind of helps me understand, you know, does my brand or am I going, you know, is there an old area, you know, it's an older area that's now being infiltrated. You know we used like they use that word I used infiltrated. But what's that word that they use? Starts with the G. Gentrifying. Yeah, gentrifying, right. Like, like an area that's becoming gentrified, that now it's time for like a newer kind of cool clinic, right? Like maybe you have like an old school hip clinic, you know, that was there for years, it was like one or two clinics, you know, the typical ultrasound. But now there's a bunch of 30 year olds moving in there. Boom. Now you need like, you know, a brand like ours to be able to service them. Right? Yeah, yeah.

Interesting.

You guys gotta follow the trends, I think. I don't know if there's a, there's a right answer to that, Rick. It's just follow the trends.

You used any type of numbers, like the ratio of number of people in that area per clinic, you know, like, you know, population of, you know, 10,000 per per clinic, you know, or 20 per physio maybe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I look, yeah, I would say you, you would probably have to have high density. Yeah, right. Because I know we're going to not capture everybody high density. So condos are important or, or you know, like, you know, those kind of living arrangements are important because also you got to think about like we pay high rent. The moment that happens, the city, then, you know, the, the owners of the property start increasing the rent prices. Right. So our rent increases significantly. So we do need high density to make that happen. Yeah, right.

Yeah, yeah. No, what about industrial locations? You know, like, you get cheap like space, you know, in industrial locations or call it business centers that have no one living there. But it's all these like small little businesses thoughts about that.

I mean, listen, like, I think it comes down to complete your business model, man. Like, like if you're a startup and you don't have the resources to pay high rent and you don't have to need something like that, then, then you've started. But you might then have to put more time into recruitment marketing, right? There might have to be more work on that side of things. Like I have, like I said, I have clients that have clinics in rural parts of Ontario or not in rural, but I can say, you know, smaller towns that have a much harder, Anything outside of Toronto is rural to me. Okay. You know, they're smaller cities, but it's such a hard time recruiting staff. Right? But then once they recruit staff, the staff stay because someone's staying on. Right. But it has no problem with patients because, you know, they're the only one of three clinics to service.

Like, yeah, they got the demand 100.

And their rent is great. But the recruitment is so hard. So growth is hard, right. Whereas for me, like, I don't have a recruitment problem, right. I have a really good intake. I might have a retention problem. I don't have a density problem, but I also have high rent. Right? So, but I also have the resources now that we have something.

But these shopping complexes that we talked about, the Starbucks and farmers, those are expensive rents too. Man.

Right. Like. Like, because you're talking about, like, I mean, when you're looking at the. The suburbs of Toronto, like Fall, Mississauga, Oakville, like, you're pretty much paying, like, something, right? Because they're owned by, like, these major players like Cadillac, Fairview or Concord, which are still going to charge the same amount. Right? Because their. Their customer is somebody that can afford it, like Walmart, Tim. Like, they want those big customers who can pay that. So I don't think you get cheap, very cheap rent in the suburbs, you know, but so, you know, and maybe it's harder now. I don't know. I don't have a lot of clinics in the suburbs. I haven't studied it yet, but.

Interesting. Hey, so I'm curious, what's kind of your business model? Do you have owners and partners at each location? Or they all corporately own? Like, what's kind of the. The business?

Yeah, good question, man. So there are. Every clinic, from a org chart standpoint, has a clinic. Right. But it doesn't mean the clinic lead is the owner. Some of our clinics, the clinic lead is an owner. So, you know, we call them clinic director in that case, or partner. But in some of our other clinics, it's corporately owned.

So anyone that says I'm a clinic director means you're a partner. Is that. Is that the same thing?

Typically, yeah. Yeah. That's how we're saying it in our company. Their partner, anybody who's a clinic lead is typically like a manager, but their staff.

Okay.

Without any ownership.

Okay, interesting. And is it all, like, separate corporate entities? Like, you got like a. A mother code that, like, kind of.

Like, Charles, you can't give away my secrets. Yeah, they're corporate. They're separate corporate. Okay. They're corporate. They're separate corporate entities. Yeah. No, no.

Like, it's pretty standard. Like, I think. I think that's kind of the smart one.

Yeah. And I think that's, you know, because for liability purposes, right. You don't want all seven clinics attached. Yeah.

Okay, cool. That's super cool. And. And then what else is there? Oh, are you still practicing right now or you kind of stop treating?

I would say my practice Hours are about 10 hours a week. Okay, Right, cool. Yeah, I still, I still do it. I kind of in and out because.

You want to do it or like.

You'Re like, are you missing in and out of practice? Like, I'll practice. Like, I don't. I don't. Like, I don't want to take any new patients this month. Because I got so much yearly planning. I'm not right. December, I don't take new patients. Some. Sometimes during the months, I'll take new patients. I kind of like floated and out of it consistently. It's about 10 hours a week, I'd say. I like to mentor. I do some mentorship with, with, with my, with my own foundation team, manage my managers, and then I do my coaching on the side. I find ways to do different things.

So, so what, at what point, Raj, like, what were you doing like a few years ago? Was it like, like, oh, and when we started, when you just start trimming it down, you know? And what was the trigger? Right, Because I think a lot of. I think a lot of clinical owners struggle with like, you know, that point where, like, it's a good question, like, yeah, I gotta stop treating because if I don't, this business is not going to grow. I don't have to have to grow the work on the business.

And when I work with my, my coaching clients on that, Rick, it's the same thing. It's like, that's the number one problem is when do I trim back and open up. Right. And like, so for my personal journey was it was six days a week. You know, every day, Monday to Saturday, we were working. Right. Then we started alternating Saturdays. Then we cut off Saturdays. Then we hired like, you know, I think when the clinic was hitting about like four physios, we trimmed down to four days a week of practice. You know, at the time there were two partners, so we still had two kind of business heads. Right. And so it kind of just happened as a. There was more revenue in the, in the business. Right. And there was more people coming in. Right. And then. And then when the, when we opened a clinic location, 2 and 3, we opened them pretty quick. That's when I had to trim back from like, you know, I went to three days of practice. Right. Was when that happened. And now I would say I have two and a half days of it. And then. But like, to be honest, like, and then during the COVID years, a lot of it was behind the scenes, just added every day. But, you know, we all know that the management hours and the running the business hours are still a lot more than the clinical hours.

Yeah. So pre covered. You were doing it. It sounds like 30, 40 hours a week.

Right. I would probably do like 20. I remember it was about 26 hours. I was doing pretty co.

Okay.

Yeah. Probably up until 20, 19.

So if you were to go back again and you just had one clinic Raj, like, talk, talk me, talk to me. That journey of, like, what would you do differently? Like, when would you pull the trigger? You know, and how would you do it? Like, is it like just. Just trim down day by day? Or you're.

Are you.

Or you go all in and take that gamble, you know, to like, you know, and just work on the business?

Like, well, that's smart, right? Like, like, like there was. There was a lot of naivety on my part. Like financially, business wise, like, run a PL statement that doesn't have your income, right? That's the first thing you got to do, right?

P L statement that doesn't rely on.

Your income and doesn't rely on your income. Right? Because now you take your income out of it. Now what's the clinic actually making right now? Plug yourself back in. What does a clinic need? Does. How much does a clinic need you essentially? Right. If I had known all that stuff, I would have probably run all those.

Sorry, your audio's chopping.

Sorry. If I had known that before. If I know that before, I would have probably run that. Like, run your pl. Without your income. The clinic was making a whole ton of money. But you're probably driving, like I was probably driving, you know, 40% of it, right? Yeah. And I'm taking home a healthy paycheck, but that's just me taking money out of my own. That's me take money out of my own earnings. Right. So it's looking at the business from that angle is the first thing I would tell my previous is, like, look at the business financially. Can the business pay you as the CEO or as the owner without your revenue? Yeah, that's the first thing. And then, then what do you need? What do you need to run the business without you as a treater, As a treating source. Right. As a revenue source. Now you build your business that way, hire what you need, and that's where your job has to change. So I think you have like, like what I would tell young clinic owners now is that same advice, right?

Like, like you're working 40 hours a week, okay. And like, you're, you're. And you make up 80% of the business. And like, the opportunities are there, but you just don't have time to work on the business right now.

Right? Well, the business. The business is you. And the business is never going to grow. Yeah. Right. Or you're going to get burnt out. Right. And we saw that during COVID Like, you're going to get burnt out and you're never going to grow. So you have. You have to take the risk. You have to. I also don't think you ever can wait. I think at some point you make it happen. You, when you reduce a day, you're going to find a way to fill up that day. Yeah, right. So you're going to find and work hard to. Like sometimes when we work harder, when we're hungry. Yeah. Right. So if I losing revenue, if I'm losing revenue and I don't have a day full, I'm going to find a way to find a physio and recruit and get somebody. I'm going to be more motivated to do it.

So you would take the risk, right? Saying, hey, you know, I'm gonna take that risk. Like I'm gonna cut that one or two days. It doesn't be all at once. I'm gonna cut the one or two days.

Yeah.

And like, because me doing this, like, yeah, I'm gonna take a financial pay cut, but I'm gonna like, I'm gonna like 3x my return like a year from.

It's an investment, right? Like, like if you had to invest in something, that's how you got to look at it from, from a financial standpoint. Either you're putting the investment, if you're putting the investment in financially, you're just losing it on the other side. Right. So, you know, if I'm gonna pay a recruiter $20,000 to find me a physio, I either do that or I lose $20,000 of Inc. Of revenue and then spend my time finding it because it's one of the two. But at some point I have to pay for something. Right? So, you know, you gotta, you gotta think of it from that logical standpoint.

It's hard for people to think that way because people are like, they still have a mortgage. It's after these different payments, you know, like.

And I get it, I was there at one point and I didn't see it. But you know, when you go back, obviously high.

So let's go, let's go back because your clinics are, you know, obviously doing like millions. But like, at what point would you think, like, let's just say, talk about one clinic, you know, at what point of revenue.

Right.

You know, do you think it makes sense for you to start cutting days, you know, to work on the business? Hey, I mean, do that 40 hours a week grind.

Yeah. Like, of, of revenue that's not generated by myself, then it's.

Let's just say that the business is.

I would say like close to probably like 800 to 900, 000. You know, in that market, right. If you can generate 100, 900, 000, you're probably. Okay. You probably have enough of a funnel, you probably have enough savings to take this back. So I would say, like, 800 is a good mark. Yeah. Right.

Most clinics aren't even close to 800. Eh.

Yeah.

Most clinics are stuck at 4 to 500,000, and they're stuck there, like, literally for 5, 10 years. And it all is because they can't take that risk or that leap of faith that one or two days.

Right.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. And I think, Rick, though, there's a lot of, like, nuances to this, right? It's how big your clinic is. Like, we built our clinic with seven, right. So there was opportunity to hire people as I was working, right. So it wasn't like, you know, that making the 800, 000, it's not. It's not completely difficult. If you have four rooms, it's very difficult. It's a different scenario, right. So you got to look at what structure do you have and then what is your vision? Everybody has a different kind of goal and different, you know, ability to build from. So I think, you know, I do want to make sure that. I point that out, that the ability to make that number was because we had space to hire as I was working. And then you have people working, like, step back. If you don't have the space, it does change your. Your journey.

Yeah. Or the demand.

Right.

You know, because I would think that, like, if you saw the demand coming and all it meant, like, it's almost like a guaranteed bet, you know, the demand is there, the space is there. Like, all you need to do is like, hey, it might take you three to six months to find that physio, but, like, mathematically, it's. It's the best return you're gonna get, you know, but you need to, like, work on it, you know, because clinic.

Owners telling you that you should, you know, maybe at the 500, 000 level, you know, maybe they're working, you know, five days a week right now, but they probably only need to work three, Right. Or. Or four. Right. Like, I think it's just about having the ability and the mental equity to save up space to work on other things. Right. They don't need to be working five. Right. Maybe they can't go to zero, obviously. Right. To be able to afford themselves. But, you know, going down to three, you know, I think scaling back one day, I think even at 500. You can scale back a day. Yeah, right. Scale back a day, lose a little bit and see what that. See what that gives you. You might even have the ability to motivate others to do better, to make up that income. Just looking at your metrics could matter because maybe there are physios that aren't fully efficient, that you could coach more if you have the time. Right? Maybe there's a leak in your marketing funnel that you could look at if you have the time. Right? There's a lot of opportunities to look at if you scale back and just remove yourself from the clinic. Working on your business, Right. I talked to Neil about that. Right. Working on your business. You need time for that. Yeah.

Wow, Cool. That was awesome, man. Yeah, that was a. That was a very interesting job. I really enjoyed our. Our chat about. Yeah, just the downtown and the urban clinics and now about, like, when to. When to unplug. Because it's. I think it's a very. It's a very difficult decision for most, like, practice owners.

Right. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's an important one if that's the growth you want to take. Yeah, yeah, right. Wow, cool. Yeah.

I just pulled out your call hero dashboard. Like, your team is crushing it, man. You know, you guys are, like, answering phones like, you know, at 80, 85.

Oh, you're checking up on me. Hey, Rick. Yeah, man. You know, you guys are doing, like.

Win backs, you know?

Like, I know I gotta give all that credit to my dream director of operations, who's on a call right now with Giovanno, you know, and I think a large part of also, like, like you said, scaling back is making sure somebody else can take over what you're doing. Right. And so now operationally, like, you know, my director of ops, Carlin, looks, looks. She looks at call hero. She runs those metrics. She's on the front desk team to answer. I have a recruit director, recruitment Alexandra, who hires and trains. Right. And so that, you know, you do have to invest in others as well to help your company grow. Right. And so you need to find the right people on your team. Some of my mentorship happens from some of my senior associates. I don't do a lot of some mentorship, but a lot of it falls into my senior associates. Everybody has a role now as a clinic grows. Right. As the business grows. So, yeah, I appreciate the feedback, but I don't want to take the credit for it.

I was like. I was like, raj, what is your secret sauce? Like, what are you doing with your Team. And so you're saying hire people smarter than you.

Hire people smarter than you. Right. I am not an ops guy. I knew that. I hated looking at Call Hero Dashboard. I hated that. Rick. Am I gonna lie? But yeah.

So who's your ops? Is your. Your ops a physio? Or is it like a.

Like, he's a physio. Carlin is a physio, and she's our director of ops, who's our partner at our Edward location. Okay.

And she works specifically with the front desk, like, with, like, training.

She works specifically with the client experience lead. We have our own Slack channel reminders regularly. Get your win backs. Okay, I'll call it. And, you know, when I need something done operationally, Rick, I ask her. Now, I really think that's. That's the role you have to get to. Like, there's. Sometimes I don't know how to do one of the jobs of my own company, which I think is actually a fantastic place to be, because I don't know. Right. Ask Carla. Always say, ask Carla. Ask Wendy. Or operations lead. I have no idea how to do that.

You're just a visionary guy, you know? You know, you're the visionary. You're the. You know, you're the capital resource allocator, you know, and the strategy guy.

Right. I just show up for the parties. Like I said, we go back to. I just show up. I just. I just want to have a good time at the Christmas party, you know? Yeah.

Cool.

Cool.

So, Raj, last question. Yeah. If you only had $11,000. Okay. How would you spend it this month to make money next month? You know, for. For one of your clinics.

Right. Oh, you're asking me, like, a business question. I thought you're gonna ask me, like, a very high level. What would I do? What would I do with $1,000? Yeah. To spend. Spend.

Now that will make you money. Like, you're gonna get a guaranteed ROI next month, you know?

Right. Huh. That's a really good question. That's guaranteed roi. Yeah.

How would you spend a thousand bucks? It could be anything, you know, no.

One'S ever asked me. That's a good question. Let me see. I would probably invest it in my front desk, okay. In a training protocol, like bringing in, like, a sales coach or sales consultant. Training my front desk to be able to just be much better at converting sales.

That's one of the best answers I've heard.

Yeah, yeah. Like. Like bringing in a sale. Someone who's not within the industry. Someone who knows how to talk. Someone who knows how to convert. Pay them a grand. Teach all my front desk staff how to have conversations to convert new patients. Because like you said in Toronto, we have price shoppers, we have people shoppers. People are calling the trying. Right. They're calling me, they're calling biog docs, they're calling the triangle, they're calling all my buddies, right. Athletes care, they're trying to find. But I want my staff to be able to convert. Yeah. Convert those people. So a sales consultant to come in and do a talk, that'd be a good. I think they probably more expensive than a thousand, but whatever they, whatever they can do for a th, get them in. Yeah.

Give me five hours.

Yeah, yeah. And, and just teach these people how to sell.

Yeah. That's interesting because I don't think, I think most owners, if you ask most practice owners, I don't think they see like you ask them, do you have a sales team? And like they're like, no. But then if you, you know, like, you know, you have a lot of other entrepreneurial friends, like you asked, like their most important part of their business is like sales.

They have a sales team and marketing.

Team that generate the leads, you know.

And then like you so free to that word, Rick. But now I don't give an F. Like I, I talk about sales and I say this is a sales job and we have sales. All the skills, all the skills, communication skills that we tell all the physios to have. What is sales people. Their best skill is communication. Yeah, right. It's the same scale across the best lawyers, the best doctors, the best physios, the best entrepreneurs. It's communication.

Let's be honest. We're constantly selling, we're selling like doctors to come to our thing. We're selling a physio to work with us. We're selling the vision of our staff.

To like come to work every day.

Yeah, right. You know, yeah.

If you know how to hold that ability. We're selling treatment plans, we're selling the follow up visit. If we know how to do that through the right communication tools. The sky's the limit no matter what you do. Sales is not a bad thing at all. Sales is a great thing.

I think scales is a dirty word in healthy profession and maybe another way reframe it is like, it's like is your ability to influence, you know, and persuade someone that aligns with what you believe in.

Right? Yeah, it sounds right. But yeah, I know, I know you're using, you're using kind of the, the bus. Using the physio language but to the bottom line is it's sales, right? We don't have to use the word sales because what is sales? It's all those things. It's influencing, it's communicating, it's empathy, it's passionate, it's getting relationships. All those things are a component of sales, right?

It sounds like it was everything I was missing in physiotherapy school.

Everything I was missing in physio school. I think there's an org, I think people are built some, some people organically have that ability and other people have it and just have to coached towards it. Cool.

Amazing. So Raj, how do people find out more about you? You also do business coaching, you also like hire people like good talent. Like how do people find out more about you, Raj?

Yeah, the best thing at foundation physio on Instagram or at Raj Sapaya PT on social website RajSapaya.com or FoundationPhysio.com.

Yeah, cool.

Yeah.

And then, and then, and then if, if they're in downtown, where would they find you? They will find you at a Nike or Lululemon store or the balls that.

Coffee the winners at the winners where I can buy the Nike for 20 off.

Oh cool.

No man, you'll. You know I'm everywhere because of my locations and I also work from home but I said like hit me up on LinkedIn is another great place. I love to meet people, I love to get to know people. I like to talk and connect, build relationships.

So if you found this helpful and want some free resources to help you be an even better over, head over to clinicbosstools. Com. We've got tons of free stuff on.

Getting new community as you are doing.

Selling your clinic, managing technical teams and much more. Thanks for coming boss Tools. Cool.

Cheers man.