Profit Margins of Dental Clinics with Claudia Chan

What type of profit margins like would a typical dental practice like be making? You know, in a typical year, you.

Know, I would say I'm in a healthy business. That would be at least like 20% retention.

20%, okay.

That's retention.

Okay.

Yes.

20% profits after all expenses. How to get smarter in business and in life. This is the question and I'm on a journey to get you that answer. I'm going to interview the world's top entrepreneurs and deconstruct their winning secrets. Going to talk about everything from marketing, money and living a bucket list life. I'm Rick Lau, healthcare entrepreneur. I grew and exited my 127 locations in my 30s. Welcome to the Clinic Boss show. All right, we are live. Welcome to the Clinic Boss show. I am Rick Lau and I am your host. I grew and exited 127 locations and now I'm on this journey to meet and learn from all these successful health care entrepreneurs in the world and how to get smarter in business and in life. And if this sounds like you, you're going to love our show. And today we got a special special guest, Claudia Chan. And she has an incredible story which we're getting into. She's a dental hygienist. Right. And an owner of a multi million dollar dental practice. And she's about to open up her second location. She's also a business coach helping other dentists like to copy and paste her winning formula, you know. And so, Claudia, welcome to the show. And I'm curious, like, do you remember how we met, Claudia?

Well, I started off using one of your service, Call Hero. One of the best service I've ever implemented, I have to say. Yeah. Because I just implemented into my team that how important it is to engage with patients. So. Yeah.

And how'd you find out about Call Hero? Like, is it like Google, like was like. Do you remember?

It was from a referral. It was from a referral actually. So it was a referral. Yes, Nash was the referral.

And who's Nash?

Nash was my marketer. He was on my marketer working with Nash, you know. No, not, not anymore. So. Yeah, so things changed. So. Yeah, but yeah, no, we still, we're still in touch. So he's, he's. We're in good terms.

Cool. So Nash was your marketing agency and I assume he was helping you generate Google Ads and like patients to your. To your clinic.

Right, right. Okay. So he was doing a lot of the SEO, the dental marketing.

Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm. No, no, Nash and I Our paths have crossed like many times. You know, he keeps on, keeps on wanting to like work to be a partner and, and anyways, so it's just cool to see how our paths kind of cross. Right. You know, but you do have a super, super cool story and your story actually reminds me a lot like mine. And so you're not a dentist, but you actually own a multi million dollar dental clinic and you actually hire like dentists, you know, Right. To work for a hygienist. Typically it's the other way around. Right? You know, and yes. And I'm just, I'm just curious, maybe you could share that journey. Like what was it like? Was it like difficult for you? Because it, there's a lot of ego working with like dentists or you know, even in our industry, like physical therapists or chiropractors, everyone has God complex. Right. You know, what was that, what was that like, you know, for you?

Well, I think it all started off with just being a dental hygienist and being employed. Right. At certain point, I mean, you have. I got bored of what I was doing and I feel like I shouldn't be capping myself my ability to build something. And then there was this talk like in the industry dental hygienists can open their office running more independently. So I really took a deep dive into that. Yeah, it was more of like, yeah, I didn't, I wasn't, I feel very trapped as an employee at that time and I feel like, you know, my, my limitation can explode. And so that's where I am. I started off as a clinical hygienist and then turning into myself, I would claim myself as a business owner right now, a dental business owner instead because of how far my practice have evolved from just being a hygiene dental practice. But now all the way. Like you said, we are growing into the multimillion dollar phase and.

Specialists working for you now, right? Is that right?

Yes. So I have, well, basically I have a team of 12 team of 12 team members working together including all the trimming coordinators, office manager, the team of clinicians. We have dentists, prosthodontists, surgeons, dentur that work with us. Not just a hygiene clinic anymore.

Wow. Wow. And, and so, so what was it like hiring your first dentist? You know?

Well, I guess it wasn't, it wasn't hard. I wouldn't say it was hard. Like, you know, it was more of like a. You would have to communicate. I would say like it's more of the communication of not really having the hiring Branding on top of that, it's more of working together, collaborating together to maximize like, you know, our standard for care. Right. So pretty much providing that the best care together.

Okay, super cool. Yeah, I know. Because your, your clinic out is in Markham, you know, Ontario and I think you're about to open up a second location as well, right?

Yes. So we're looking into it because we did hit capacity for current location.

Yeah. Wow. And so, you know, I'm always been, I've always been fascinated with like the dental profession because it's very similar to like, you know, the physio. Actually let me back up. It's the profession that physios and Cairos kind of wish they were at, you know.

So.

And I'm, I'm just, I'm just curious like, you know, what type of, what type of profit margins like would a typical dental practice like be making? You know, in a typical year?

You know, I would say I'm in a healthy business. That would be at least like 20. Retention.

20. Okay.

That's retention.

Okay.

Yes.

20% profits after all expenses. Right. You know?

Yeah. Right. So that would be a healthy business model. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, you know, and then is that the average or like most clinics are like closer to like 10, 15 or, or like are they closer to like 25?

I could only speak for myself so like, because we're at like, you know, a pretty healthy 20%. But of course I, with current economic state, it is squeezing everyone's profit margin right now with, with. And the, the staffing. Staffing costs right now as well.

Yeah, yeah. Because I, I would say a typical like rehab clinic, you know, I would say like the, the really run, well run clinics who are doing like multi millions, there's is part hitting those type of numbers like maybe the, the 17, you know, but most clinics are kind of stuck around 10, you know. Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then it's. I'm just like at 10%.

Yeah.

You know, is there enough like juice in the business to like, you know, loose like to run that business, you know. Right. Because running, you know, whether, because it's a lot of work to run a practice. Right.

So there's a lot of strategic planning, I would, I would say because there's a lot of variables because you cannot control who comes into your door. And it's same at some, some point too. But yeah, I mean, yeah, strategic planning and execution is, is the key.

Yeah. And then for a typical, for a temple, for a typical dental patient, you know. Right. What's the, what's your. What's the lifetime value of a patient worth to your practice?

I would say if it's a general dentistry, you're looking at minimum of $10,000. Okay.

Or how many years, like how many years do you include for that? Like, you know, what's the model?

Well, if, well, the model, like I said as general dentistry, like you're not doing extensive cosmetic work or any other, I would say any other, like prosthesis work and all replacement work, then it's just maintenance work. Like you're looking at like that $10,000 ROI is pretty much the 10 years, I would say.

Okay, okay. And then, and then what's the annual value of a patient? You know, I guess it would be 10,000 divided by 10. So a thousand. Thousand bucks. Thousand?

Yeah. Like a thousand to fifteen hundred dollar. I would say.

Okay, okay. Wow. See, this is what I mean by like the envy people in like rehab. Like if we. For most like physical therapists or chiropractors or you know, massage therapists, like a, you know, like a patient typically is. Yeah, sure, it might be worth like seven or 800 bucks. Like, you know, like maybe like call it like per episode of care. Right. But they don't come back every year for the next 10 years. It's not like a recurring subscription model, you know.

Yes, well, yeah, so there's a, there's a lot of implementation of comprehensive care as well in dentistry. I would say if you're not implementing that, like, it's hard to maximize that fifteen hundred dollar as well.

Okay, so, so that, that's my next question. So what would you say are three things that you're doing right now, Right. You know, at your practice that keeps patients like kind of like coming, you know. Right. Like reactivating them, you know, like what has been working for your practice? And, and once again, like, you know, like you're doing some amazing stuff. I've always wanted to like interview like, you know, someone like you, like a dental practice owner, you know, and, and because there's so much that we could learn from the rehab industry, like on how dent this because they're doing it really well. Like I would say, like they're running a pretty like tight shit, you know.

Well, team culture, definitely team culture is one of the, the biggest thing because you cannot do everything alone. That's my theory. That's my biggest belief as well too. So fostering a good team culture, that's like a continuous thing that you are. I am. Well, I would say any business owner should be doing fostering a Good team, positive team culture. Implementing a lot of team trainings, your team, patient care, looking at patient care, like we were just saying earlier, like how do you maximize that? Right. So comprehensive care, educating the patients so that they have a good understanding of what you're doing. So not just being dictated by. In the past, the older model will always be the clinician dictating treatment, but right now it's more of like a collaborated style method with the patient as well. So then they know what you're doing as well. Like what benefits do they get with the treatment? And then one thing that I'm actually really putting more and more time right now is actually AI. So this is the newest thing in.

The world happening AI and dentistry.

Yeah. So there's a lot of AI stuff happening around us and there is some technologies that's starting that I've, I'm more aware of is helping to efficientize the process of care and reducing, simplifying tasks for your staff, your team, increasing the treatment coordinating and treatment acceptance for clinicians as well. So AI is definitely something that I am currently putting more effort in looking into it.

Okay, interesting. Everyone's using AI version, but if we zoom up tactically, you know, like what would like the typical like patient journey look like? You know, I, I, I, I call your clinic. I book and I get, I get my, I, I get my. What do you, Wait, what are you doing your new visit again? Like you do that new visit, like what do you guys call it?

So new patient journey, I would say.

Okay, so they come on the first visit, right. And then what do you do after the visit to like, I guess the next step is you book them. Like a cleaning, right? Am I right? Yes.

So more of like a comprehensive exam and a cleaning. That's a very typical way to start. So then we get to know the patient, their needs and their goals.

Okay, and then, and then what happens afterwards? How do you get them to come back again in the next six months, you know, so that they don't. How do you make sure that they leave with an appointment booked?

Well, that has to do with a lot of patient experience involved in the whole appointment. So validation in terms of your team members, everyone having that trust, implementing to the patient. So then when they exit out of the appointment or the treatment room, the patient's actually being, having that comfortability, that confidence in the team. So not just with the clinician, but with the team. So this is like a driving force for a team to, I mean the patient actually really coming back to you having that trust.

So that trust hygienist in the front desk as well. Like that's what you mean by team?

Yes, the whole team. So from the front desk, like you said, from the bookings, starting from the booking, phone calls, and then coming into the office, like, you know, the, the meet and greet from the dental assistants, the hygiene team, and then the introduction, introduced to the doctor, and then from there, the doctor, like, you know, having this, devising a, like a very personalized treatment plan. Not a really a cookie cutter. It's building trust. I would say that experience that you implement with the patients, like, has a lot of, that you're implementing a lot of confidence for the patient to come back. So not necessarily that you're always like hunting them down to come back to you because they want to come back.

Okay. Okay. And what percent of the people actually book their next appointment, you know, after their first visit for you?

So my clinic reappointment rate is 98%.

That's insane. Okay, so. And how much is that is driven by the by. Like, is it, is it driven mostly by the front or the hygienist or the dentist?

Again, it's actually everybody involved in this. So the doctor has that urgency addressing the issues that they see in the mouth with the patient. The dental hygienist actually putting a lot of effort in educating the patient as well. Right. And at the front, basically when you're doing the handoff, the treatment coordinating part from the front desk and your treatment coordinator, like really, really step up to explain the financial. So patients are not in the dark.

Okay. Okay. Wow, this is amazing. Right? You know, because what you're describing is exactly how clinics, like, I think rehab clinics operate very similar, but they're not dialed as, as opera. As efficient as like how a dental clinic is being run. Right.

Yes, I would say.

Right.

I, I can only speak for ourselves. I can only speak for ourselves. I mean, like, there are like, you know, offices that are trying to their, their, their journey, like I said, like the new patient experience. But I, I think, yeah, most of the time, like right now, the clinics, Right now dental clinics are really trying to, to get the patients back in, like the reappointment rate to get up because. Yeah, you really don't want to have the patient just walk out of the door and then chasing them down and then creating more work for your front office as well.

Okay. And is that, is that your most important, like KPI that you look at each week then what you're.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah. So this is one of the treatment conversion, the treatment acceptance, and then reappointment rate.

Yeah, sorry, can you say that? What are the metrics?

So the treatment case presentation. So the value of that. The treatment acceptance. So that's also a value of that. And then also the conversion rate in terms of rebooking the patient back, the appointment rates.

Okay, so what's an example of each of those metrics? Right.

So I like to track our treatment presentation in terms of value instead of percentage. So I know that some clinics, they love tracking in percentage wise, but then to me, it's like, okay, how much in terms of the value are you creating for that patient?

So that presentation, is it annual value or is it the 10,000? Like, what's one number?

So it would be like a full treatment plan. So the comprehensive treatment and value that you're. You're presenting. So the next. Are you just talking? Yeah. For the whole year to come. For the whole year to come, which is basically at the. Yeah. Or minimum, a thousand dollar. But if, for. If you're doing more extensive work, like we. Our practice is like multidisciplinary. You're looking at, like, you know, having patients walking out with a $10,000 plan.

Wow, that's insane. Okay, so. So the metric you track, I was like, okay, this is like, how much you could bill, in essence, with that patient leaving. Okay.

Yeah.

And then. And what's the second metric? The patient.

The second metric would be acceptance. So the acceptance. In the past, we did try to. We did try. We did at the. At one point, we were tracking the rate, the percentage. But then it's not the most accurate reflecting to. Because, I mean, you can have like three cases and then two of them were accepted, one wasn't, and then you're still only getting 60% rate. Right. So it doesn't reflect like the very positive number for the team. But in terms of. Yeah. So if you wanted to encourage. Implement more encouragement to. And positive encouragement to your team, I think it's the value that they see. Right. So, I mean, today, so say this, we represented, say, $30,000 treatment in total. I mean, if the team sees that, okay, we're closing like, you know, 2,500. I mean, that's very encouraging. And that also creates the next step to drive more encouragement to and grow for your team, which is the bonus status. Right. So that also will translate to that, too, later on as your practice grow.

So that 2500 is what the team estimates that this patient will be. Okay. Based on their insurance funding.

Yeah. So they asked for The. Yeah. So that we have a team working with patient in terms of finances wise, like you deal with like what is the out of pockets. And then also the coverage for the insurance, the benefits. So. Yeah, but I mean, we all know that insurance company, they don't cover much. I maximum of like maybe like $2,000. But then if you're presenting a $10,000 case, then there's only so much that insurance will pay. So that takes team effort to drive the value of the treatment. That. That's true. The patient.

This is insane. These metrics that you have. Oh my gosh, like, I would love to see the, the physiotherapy or rehab, like do this. This would be like off, off the hook, you know. Right. And then the third one is the rebooking.

Right.

You know, which is.

You said rebooking?

Yeah, you call it 98%, you know. Right.

Yeah, that's the. That's definitely a very important metric because that's where the revenue cycle management comes into. Right. So your reaction, you're having that rinse and repeat.

Wow. Insane. That was cool. That was super, super cool. And then what do you do? Okay, so let's just say because you. I think typically the general cleaning is like every six months. Right. You know. Right.

Yes. So with no active disease, periodontal disease, that would be six months. After six months.

So what happened? What do you do for the people who don't. That 2% that don't book. Right.

We would have tried it. Well, I guess, like, you know, we would say like, where they're coming from too, like as a clinician, as a team. Like, why didn't the 2% book? So it could be financial issues or it could be, you know, maybe we fail as a clinician or as a clinic that they had. They couldn't get the, the education from us, that this is amazing.

So you have reviews, right. You know, between the team on that specific like client, on where did we fail that this person didn't rebook.

Yeah. So I think self reflection is very important. Right. So there is, there's always something we can learn from a failing experience, and we should try to improve that. We'll try to dial that up.

You know what's interesting, Claudia? Like a lot of business owners talk about team. I think you're actually implementing it. So. So I'm curious, how do you take out time in the schedule to do these case reviews or is it just done organically?

We do team meetings. I have a leadership team that we do team meetings together. So we look at us like, you know, the, the people that's actually, you know, really leading the, the, the team that's, we do that discussion together. So as leaders we self reflect. Right. So is there something that we're not doing that causes this kind of setbacks? Right. So instead of like, you know, really blaming on a team member is not really performing. Have we as leader really reflected on like have we communicated more the clarity with your team yet?

So these are just leaders who come to this. But not the clinicians, right?

Not the. Yeah, so clinic. So the head clinician would come into. Okay, so yeah, so we would like basically have this talk together like every week we'll come to come together having that leadership meeting.

Okay, yeah. This is probably your most important meeting then because this is real money. Right. This is not, it is like strategy about what to do a year from now. This is like what happened last week. Right, you know, right?

Yes.

One by one, right?

Yeah. So like we come in and basically we look at a scoreboard or KPIs like why did certain numbers went down? Do we really have to pay attention right now to. I mean there's. Because you don't want to wait until something really fall off the cliff then you start to addressing it. So these important. I believe that is very, very important. And that's where you actually foster like a really good team culture in general.

Well, you have to. So what does your org structure look like? How many leaders do you have in your little box?

Right, well, definitely the visionary operator and then we have admin operations. So because we're not a full DSO structure yet. So I haven't split into like you know, the HR departments and all the like, you know, the tedious departments. But then we have the main operations, admin operations, dental assistant, operating dental hygiene department and the, the dentist, the head of the.

What's the difference between dental assistant versus dental hygienist department?

So dental assistant definitely is the, are the people that are running the floor Floor general. So they got to make sure that, you know, the traffic is patients seated properly. The, the operatories are ready and records are ready for the clinicians prior to starting. So they also play a very, very important role. I, I, I always like, you know, say dental assistant is one of the hardest job that they have. They have to really get.

It's not the front right. Like it's starting the record. Do they do the front too or they just do that one specific role?

They only do that one specific role. So dental assisting. So basically it's More of like the, the back office. The is more of like the patient engagement. Like, like really all the administrative tasks, communicating, finances. So I don't have any of my clinicians communicate or talk about the money with the patients.

Okay. Wow, that's crazy. That's super tight. I love that. You know. Right?

Yes.

Cool. This is, this is, this is cool. I'm very fascinated. Yeah.

I think like, you know, like creating that clarity of the roles and responsibility that your team has as is very critical. So nobody is in the dark. They know exactly what to do when, when a patient walks in.

Claude. You know what's interesting is that like I've always admired the dental industry where like they actually have like this team based role. So they got the dental assistants, they got the dental hygienist.

Right.

You know, and everyone focus on one aspect of the patient's care and so that the, that the dentist does maybe like this type of work, you know. Right. You know?

Yes.

And then the hygienist is this type of work. But together their productivity is insane and the patient cares off the roof. Right. You know, whereas when I look at say like the physical therapy industry, right, they still is a little backwards where they want to do everything themselves from them like, you know, treating them to doing exercises, to putting the machine on, to wiping the table, to like, you know, like to get walking them to front to like, you know, like talk about money and like, you know, like they do everything and some of them even like books with them and so, and then, and then like, you know, like in our industry, which is, I think is very similar to the dental industry, is that there's a shortage of like people that want to work in this profession. Right?

Yes.

But the demand is here.

Yes.

Yet like, if you don't embrace in a team based care model, how do you service all these people that want physical therapy or chiropractics? Because like you work on this one on one model, right? You know what I mean?

Yes. Whereas it's going to create a lot of burned out basically if you're doing every. You're creating a lot of burnt out clinicians if you're doing this right. Like on, on a person doing it all versus the team that's handling together because basically you still want to preserve the health of your team at the same time too. So yeah, team, teamwork. I, I can't address more how important it is teamwork.

It was funny when you, when you, when we first started this podcast, you were talking about how the dental profession is very outdated. You Know, and then, and I look at the physical therapy profession, I'm like, oh my gosh, we are outdated. We're still on one on one care, right? Versus like a team based model, right? You know?

Yes.

And once again, like, I think all industries are going through the same, like, like, same shortage of like hiring, whether it's a dentist or a physical therapist or a chiropractor, right? Yes, but the demand is there.

Yes, demand is always there. There's always a lot of dentistry left undone. It's just that. Yeah, like you said, I mean, especially nowadays, like of the shortages, it's. It's insane. So it's more than ever that it's so important that having a good team to deal with this with you.

So Claudia, I know you're a business coach for like dentists and hygienists, right. You know, if you, if you were to take on like a client that was a physical therapist, what would you say to them to transition to this team care type of model? Right. You know, like to work with like a physiotherapy assistant, you know, so that not only can they provide better care, but they could like double or triple productivity.

Right, Right. So I mean, goal setting, basically, I think you have to have a clear goal, what you're trying to achieve as a clinician or as a business owner. Right. So as a business owner, definitely the. I mean, business owner slash clinician, eventually you wanted to step out of the clinical role. So in order to do so that trust building with your team, it's very important, like the delegation part, like freeing up your own own time, doing what's most important that you can deliver to the patient or to the business. It's. I think this is what, I think this is what they need to really focus on, like do the most important thing is not really wiping the table like you said, or you know, really doing that.

Why not have like the. Why not have the assistant dude or the kinesiologist?

Exactly. Yes.

Why go home and do the home care plan when you just do it at the clinic? Right?

Yes.

Can you imagine giving a, like a patient like a home care plan? Like would they actually. Likely not, right? In your world?

No, no, it's just like an OHI plan. I don't think many dental patients actually ruled.

Okay, can we talk about. Let's talk about the financial piece. You're saying that like, so your front, your friend deals with. Talking about the financial talk. Typically, how much would you say is covered by out of pocket versus like by insurance? Is it 50, 50, or is it 80, 20 covered by insurance?

It's, I would say 80, 20, 80, 20. But if you wanted to do really the, the dream dentistry, dentists wanted to do all the dream dentistry. Most of them will not be covered by the dental insurance. So that takes a very, A different skill set for you to team, to really like, you know, sort that out with your patient and value delivering. I think that's, that's where it's critical.

What do you mean by that?

So they have to see the value while you're doing certain things that patients need to see the value, not just you. I mean, as a clinician, I mean, you know that they.

What's value?

It's beneficial to a crown. But then for a patient it's like, okay, what does the crown do for me? So they have to be able to see that value. Right. Okay. So, yeah, it's not just. That's what I was saying like earlier, that as the older model would be that, you know, the doctor will dictate that service or that treatment, but the patients have no clue what they have done. But I think in modern times, I mean, patients are being more educated as well. I mean, information is so easily accessed. Patients want to get the best service right now too. Not just the, yeah, I need a cleaning, I need a crown, I need a filling. They need to see what they, what they get out of it. And.

Wow.

And that's.

Yeah, because like, you know, it's like, you know, I think like a lot of clinicians in our community, like when someone comes for physiotherapy, like, they just focus on, I'm going to fix their shoulder. Like, they came in for a shoulder pain, but really they came in because they want to play pickleball and their shoulder is bothering them. So they should be. When you're talking about value, it's really the values about getting you to play pickleball again. Right. You know, let's get your shoulder, like, done. Not like, not like, you know, just looking at your shoulder. I want to like your shoulder. And like, let's, you know, let's mobilize this or blah, blah, blah. Right, right.

I mean, especially in like, you know, the dental, dental industry, you know, a lot of dental diseases or problems, they go undiagnosed. Right. So patients don't feel the pain because these are all chronic diseases that they're having. And as a clinician, as a dental professional, that's our job to be able to articulate or to send that message across to the patient that There is disease happening and how can. How would it affect them in lifestyle wise too. And I think this is where the value of the. The actual clinician and the team will come in because like you know, educating the patients, getting your point across. Right. Having them understand. I think that's where the win comes in for us as so and that reflects in that reappointment rate.

Wow, that's amazing. That's super cool. Okay. Wow. I would love. That's amazing. Patient is worth like $10,000. You know like annual values. A thousand dollars like you know, like this team based care focusing on the patient's why and showing value not just like treating the condition. You know. Right. You know, like in the outcome of like what life they want. Right. So love it. Everything that I live and breathe. Like you're saying it. And we are in two different industries.

You know.

But your industry is way more profitable. So I like your industry. Let me ask you like what would you say are the top three things that you. Top three things. Ways that you attract like you know, like maybe new leads or patients to your practice that has worked for you?

Well, definitely online on that's marketing. Online marketing. Google Ads.

Okay.

Yeah. So the positioning yourself like you know, finding the your target audience. I think oftentimes when the clinic owners try to position themselves like they're trying to be the one that's for everybody. But I would say that. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean as much as like you're doing the you know, multidisciplinary within your practice again you wanted to have people to understand that has the same mindset with you too. So attracting the right patients coming in through the door more is also what's.

The ideal patient for you.

Patients that are willing to. I mean being open minded. I would say because we have especially the R model is we. I have like different. Different specialty this different disciplinary dentist. We all do. What's our strength of us? Like we, we basically we do what we're good at. So if there isn't like a super dentist that you know and then just do it all. So we do it in a way that we provide the best care for patients. So I do best like say for dental cleaning and then the general dentist like you know the best doing that, you know the simple restoration and then. But he wouldn't pull the heroic move doing a surgery. Right. So then there would be a surgeon that do. Does that positioning yourself.

But how do you position. Yeah.

Why position ourselves in terms of you get the best patient experience.

Okay.

And that would translate when, like I said, like earlier, like when the patient comes in, starting from the phone calls. Okay. That we would be able to help you.

Okay. So Google Ads is number one. What else? What else works?

We've been doing a lot. We did do the banner ads. I've heavily focused on Google. So we also did banner ads. So where they download, say implant guide. So if they want to keep patients looking into dental implants, then they can download that. So it's more of like an education process. So patients prospects. I wouldn't say patients at this point. Yeah, the prospects that are interested in you will start googling, looking up, reading more about you, the service. So I think that creates a lot of later to come through the door. And then they, they basically start to build confidence with you when you're doing this. I, I believe in this route as well too.

Well, my entire business built on this. And I. This is, I love the fact that you do this. You're creating content where people like fill up. Like you get their email address, you know, maybe their phone number. Right. So all of a sudden they're in your monthly email newsletters. You're sending them content, you know, and then, then you got like ads, you know, following them. You know, if they go on CNN or they go this website and just reminds them of like that guy they downloaded or, you know, or like smiley teeth. Right?

Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, it's like a good education process. I mean, like a lot of people are having dental phobia. You have to understand that too. So, yeah, they will not be the person that really just click on it and just come straight to the door that comes straight through your, your office. So that trust building, that rapper and education, that's part of the marketing that we do.

What about community marketing? Do you do much like community marketing or like Facebook groups and stuff? Like.

Or I, I haven't had a lot of success in, you know, Facebook and Instagram, but I would say those are more of like drawing attention. So I. Yeah, so I haven't really been doing a lot of that. So like I said, I've been just focusing mainly on branding on Google, my website.

Okay. Okay. And also like SEO search, when someone searches, searches like best dentists, like, you know, best patient experience dentist in market or the best reviews.

Well, definitely Google reviews, like helps a lot too.

Yes, Google reviews. Right. You know, everyone, especially with like people who have like dental phobia, like, they're gonna check out the reviews. Like, my wife will check out the reviews. She will. And the one she will look at, she only wants to look at negative reviews, right?

Yes.

So she will look at the negative reviews and she only wants the big ones, you know, or she looks, she will also look at only the big ones because you know, they usually like. And they should only look at the female ones. Right. Like people like so. But that's super, super cool. And then what about in terms of. Okay, so we talked about like what you do to track new patients. So what do you. Because each phone call or lead you get is $10,000 right now. Right. It's expensive for you not to convert that phone call. So what are you doing to improve the front desk conversion of these marketing leads? You know, what would you say are the top three things that you're doing?

Definitely phone training. Phone training is, I think a lot of clinical owners do neglect in the past. They think that the patient calls and they will book so often with the competition ahead of us right now or within us already. Phone skills, your front end phone skills. Like it's something that you cannot neglect. And this is where call hero comes in too. Like you guys have a very good, extensive phone training and I have have to say that we've been using that as our base too, like offering that help, providing that comfort over the phone. So then the patients at the prospect will book. So phone training, definitely it's the top priority. And again then it'll come down to metrics. So we look at call conversions so how many leads comes in and we listen to the call calls oftentimes like we do listen to the calls and we would.

Every single week. Is this part of your case review or like you have a set that.

Would be, that would be the admin operation, the leading the team meeting. So they would listen to, they would pick out the ones that not successively booked and they'll look at what the problem is. Like is it, is it a money issue or is it just location problem or they call the wrong number? So we, we look into all these factors.

Okay. Wow, that's, that's crazy. And so yeah, no, that's, that, that's, that's super cool. You know, the fact that you do that and I think the way you have to picture it is that like for every single phone call that's missed or not booked is literally $10,000. So if you see that you're like, oh my gosh, you know, especially, especially if you're spending a lot of money on marketing. Google Ads is very expensive.

Yes, right.

You know, yeah, like Google SEO is very expensive because you got to pay people to do it, right, you know?

Yes.

So if you join in these calls like and they don't book, then it is like definitely like you're losing a lot of money on the table, right?

Yes, it is. And then. Well, that's why we would, I mean we always have a plan. I have my admin team basically reach out to the ones that hasn't booked or people that would be like, I'll call you back or I think about it, I mean in a couple of days you do want to reach out to them. And I think it's a good self reflecting process as well for them too. Is this something about us that they didn't like? So it's more of like, you know, it helps like you know, the practice in general as well too. Is it because we cannot serve the patients? Is it you're looking at like, is it the capacity issues, the scheduling issues? Maybe it's not necessarily like, you know, just the phone from the full scale. Right. It could be like our capacity. This is when you look into growth, operation problem. Right. And you want to see. Well, this is when you know that you're possibly hitting capacity as well. So how do you resolve that? I mean you're getting a lot of incoming calls but then you just cannot successfully book them because you don't have enough chair. Then that's when the, the growth, the growing, the, the, the scalability of the, the business has to, we really have to look into that.

Wow, that's super cool. Let me ask you, like, you know, like obviously there's a big trend of like online, you know.

Right.

Like everyone's online, you know.

Yes.

If you look at like patients who book with you. Right. How many actually book like a new patient booking through the, like the phone versus booking like online, you know, or through.

I would say a lot coming online. Because I do have an online booking system. You'll be surprised how many people are, I mean people are really busy as well too with work, with life, with families. Like after hours requisition is pretty high for us too. For the online booking, was that booking.

The schedule or there was just web forms?

Just a web form. So they put their preferences in terms of their, their availability and so the next day that my, our staff would be, would follow up right away.

Right.

So yeah, online booking I think is, yeah. Is very, very important for clinical nurse to address.

50. 50 or you think it's 80, 20, like how much. What's the breakdown between online and phones in terms of converting new patients? Right.

I would say it would be. Yeah, I think online is actually heavier right now. I would say like 60, 40 right now. Yeah. Because a lot of people are just like, you know, like you said, I mean, googling. They're trying to read the reviews, like, who's better? And then that's when they make the decision online with life.

Don't get me wrong, everybody, but when they fill out that web form, like, they're not booking directly in your calendar, they're just filling a web form. And then on that web form, you have to call them back. So you're still using the phones right now, am I right?

Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah. You still have to reach back the outreach to the patient.

That's still the phone. Like.

But.

But I guess my question is, like, you don't allow a new patient. Why don't you. Would you allow a new patient booked directly online as a new patient?

No, I think in terms of why not? No, because it's hard to control. Because what you really want to develop that it's more of value developing with the patients as well over the phone to service, giving that experience. Because having a natural person, that human touch, I think still makes a big difference of why people choose you over another clinic. The emotions, attachment, emotional attachment is still there, I. I believe.

Okay. The reason I bring this up is that, like, I see a lot of, like, clinics in our community where, like, they're pushing, like, just book directly into my EMR as a new patient.

Right.

Versus pushing the phone call. But then, like, but like, that's their main call to action. Like, go book in my Jane software, like, directly as a new patient. But they're not actually getting a lot of new patients booking from an existing patient, maybe because they know who you are. But the new patient is not booking because they're still, like, they want to talk to someone. Like, what is it like working there? Like, I have, like, more questions because I have a dental phobia or these type of issues, you know?

Yeah.

And like. Right. Is. Is that. Is that kind of the main. Is you're. It sounds like you're.

Yes. Yeah. So basically it's. Basically you still want to hold down to the notional rates to zero as much as possible or as low as possible. Right. I think that if you're just allowing patients to book anywhere on your calendar, it creates a lot of unnecessary cancellations too. So I still have my team basically control our schedule that way, again, it comes down to the value pitch from your team to the prospect and that, that connections that initial Connections with the. Your team and the prospect is very, very important to me. And that's where they see why they should choose you over anybody else.

Okay. Love it. Yeah. Because, you know, like, you know, just talking to. From business owner. Business owner. That first phone call is a sales call. How can we convert that phone call so that, like, they're like, this is the best clinic for my problem. Right. You know, and I'm gonna have a list of all these questions because I have a phobia with, like, dentists, you know, of them scratching, like, burning my teeth.

Well, exactly. I mean, like, with the. Yeah, with the dental phobia. Yeah. Trades. It's. It's really hard because, like, people really need to have that connections, that emotional connections with your team. And I wouldn't take that out of. Take the phone out.

Oh, my God. I love it. I just wanted to recap what you said originally when you said 60, 40 is them filling out web form, requesting a phone call back, not booking directly into EMR because you want to control that, because you want them to talk to the human so that you have a higher conversion rate, you know? Right.

Yes. Correct.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, cool. And you know what? Like, everything you talked about, like, is. Everything that I preach within our community is that there's like running, like a, Running a clinic in 2024. There's four things you need to do. Like, number one, you have to be really good at marketing. Okay. Which is generating leads, phone calls into your. Into. Into your practice. Number two is you have to be good with, like, front desk conversions, you know, so if that lead comes in, you got to make sure you're converting at like 80% of that lead into that first appointment, you know, and. And then if it's done right, that first appointment will turn it, know, a plan of care over for 10 years. Right. You know, in your clinic. Right, Claudia? Number three is you got to be amazing at patient experience or that patient is not going to come here again after the first visit. Right.

Yes. And the last thing, it's just like going to the restaurant.

Yes, 100%. And number four is you have to be outstanding at staff experience because no one want to work for you, you know, or like, you know, if, if you're, If. If you can't create an amazing staff experience, like an opportunity for your. For your. For your. For your practice. Right. So. Yeah. What do you think about that? Do you agree with that, Claudia?

Yes. Yep. I totally agree on all of them because, yeah, you got to keep your staff happy. So, I mean, the saying as keeping your ha. Your staff happy will always definitely keep keeping your customer happy. Yeah, that's. That's something I truly believe.

Yeah. Cool. So you've been a, you've been a customer for Call here for. Since 2018, you know, and I think, yes, I'm going to say that you, you were a bit of the early adopter with like, AI, before anyone, before anyone started, like hearing about now, you know. And so I'm just super curious, like, you know, what. What was the main problem that you faced before using Call Hero? Right.

I would say it's you cannot. Well, it's more of you cannot control the problem without the call recordings and call tracking. Oftentimes your front desk do lack of that skills in the beginning because we just put them on the spot, just answering the phone and we like again that they don't know what they. What the patient experience would be. Unless you implement that training with Callhero, you're not really implementing a negativity mindset to them that they're being listened to, but rather than you're trying to tell them that it's an education process to your team. So it's a growth process this way. It's also creating a very positive career pathway for your team member as well too, because eventually they can become, they could become a phone trainer, admin trainer, a lead trainer. And yeah, this experience using calhero is, I would say it has been amazing. It's implemented a lot of positivity into the training process and the patient experience process as well, too.

Interesting. And then what would you say, what type of results you've kind of achieved with Call Hero.

Right. Well, definitely, like, you implement the accountabilities in your team that is the main, the biggest achievement. I would say they know how to handle call properly because like we were saying, the initial phone calls, like, it can cost you like $10,000 basically ROI. So you really wanted to. How do you maximize that then? That's the first step.

Wow. And then, you know, like, and I was looking at your. Some of your call metrics. Like, you know, you're like answering at 95% right now. Like, your conversion rates are decent as well. And so I had a big impact on that as well. Right.

Yes. Yeah. You really don't want to have someone going into your voicemail because that's the next thing would be they might be calling the office next to you.

Yeah, maybe talk about that. Like, is that something that you see a lot? You know, because I, I think a lot of clinics like, yep, it's okay with going to voicemail, right?

Yeah. And I, I truly don't believe in that. I, I think. Well, that's the thing, especially when you're doing Google Ads. People are basically going through that list showing the top 10 clinics or top five clinics. So if you show up on number one, then you should be the number one person getting in touch to the patient with the patient. If you're not answering the calls, basically it's lost opportunity. You missed it. And they are going to, they're moving on to another list because that trust hasn't been, or that rapport hasn't been created with a human, with your team. So I think that it's very important that they really need the answering rate is. Is, is just as important as conversion rate.

Yeah. Wow. And, and do you have, and do you give bonuses and reward your staff based on KPIs related to this?

Not at the moment. So I think everyone is very content at this moment. I think that's because I would say implementing bonuses, it can be very tricky, but at the same time, I think it does create some sort of rewards. But we haven't done it yet. But if you have a true positive team culture, I think that, I mean, if your staff is happy working with you, like, we're also delivering all this positivity experience to patients, they want to do well with you as well too. Yeah.

Wow. Cool. That was awesome. That was truly awesome. I really enjoyed this conversation, Claudia, because there's so much parallels with a dental industry. And when I hear about what you're doing with other, you're, you know, you're a business coach, you own a practice, you work with other practices. And there's just so much parallels. And I feel like, you know, the physical therapy, chiropractic, like, industry has so much to learn from like, you know, business coaches like you on the dental side, you know, because it's. But I feel like you guys got it dialed, you know, so.

Yes.

Yeah. And now you're thinking of using AI?

Yes.

To improve, to improve the operations of like, is it the insurance verifications and like just all the back end process stuff?

I see it. It's still like I'm using it to elevate the patient experience still. I mean, there's always ways to create trust. There's just a lot of skepticism in dentistry with patients and that whole dental phobia scenario too. Having AI will definitely reduce a lot of human stress.

Okay, cool. Last question before we wrap up. If you only had $1,000 Claudia. Right. You know, how would you, like how would you spend it? Like so they could generate sales next month, you know, for your dental practice. Like what would you do if you had one?

Implement a new AI technology. So right now I'm still looking at a really technology like team training that I would say I would split it in both implementing into team training and AI technology. So like I said, AI technology is used to reduce the human stress, to amplify efficiency and increase productivity activity. And team training is very important. I think it's training, you know.

Right. Booking those, like booking those plan of cares, you know, like, you know, or answering those phone calls and converting them, you know, into, into like a, like into an appointment, right?

Yes, yes.

When I hear about like what you're doing, like I feel like the dental profession is like so many years ahead and like, you know, our profession can't like even see it. Like they're so stuck when you talk about like in the old ways. Like I feel like we're in the dinosaur stage, you know. Right.

Is it really that bad? I think it's also because we have so much competition as well too.

Yeah, but like, even, even that whole thing about like the one on one care versus team care, like that itself is something there's just so much pride with like the profession of letting that go that they don't want to work with assistants and it's taboo to not do one on one care.

Yeah, I mean that's, that's definitely the older model and I do see a lot of dentists being stuck in that in the past as well too. They just haven't create that trust with their team. I would say that that would actually. It's a trust issue more than are they really wanting to explore in the new way of practicing having that. Some of them don't. Some of them still.

It's very small, right? You know, isn't it?

Well, I think the newer style, the newer style, like, you know, you're trying to really compete with the corporates, like you have to get into this, this model because otherwise it's just too much burned out for, for the clinician, the doctor himself. And like, you know, if it's everything like, like you know, one to one, it's, it's too hard to maintain. And that's also the, the cap that you're putting on your, your productivity too. Right. So you're not growing in that sense because at some point like you're just, there's just one one of you. Right. So you can clone yourself the only way to do that, it's. Is through team practice.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like that's, that's the key to breakthrough that multi million.

It boggles my mind because like, like all these clinicians, all these owners like can't hire another physio and we're like just use an assistant. We'll help you train them.

Exactly. But yeah, then they, the clinician can do the important.

Embrace it, but the clinician can break. It's a, it's a industry problem.

Really. Yeah.

But you see like where the, like, you know what I mean?

Like. Yeah, because they have to change that mindset is like, you know, the clinicians only doing the, the biggest. Producing the revenue producing treatment, then everything else is like not as important than the team can take care of. Right. Because I don't, I don't believe that you could do best in every everything.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's the same thing. Like it's the, the, the physiotherapist do the high level work. Right. You know, all the other stuff. It should be like, it should be that $20 hour task, you know?

Right, yeah, you know, exactly.

Right. And then, and then, and then don't get, don't get them go home to do their home exercise program. Like do it within the clinic because they're not going to do it.

And then they're not gonna. I'm one of those bad patients.

Yeah. And then they end up, they end up saying that physiotherapy didn't work. Right.

Yeah.

And then, and they can't address the funding issue, the money issue, you know.

Right.

So it's like I'm just like, oh my gosh.

It's the accountability of the patients too. I mean this is, I think that's how you create that reappointment. It's low.

Forget you being a, like a coach for a dentist. You should be a coach for a physical therapist. What do you think?

I could. I think it's more of like, you know, this is, this coaching business is not really restricted to a single industry. Right. Because it's basically, it's like a mindset shift. Like you know, you're really like, you know, addressing a clinician, pulling that person out of the clinician hat and then having that business sense.

Super, super cool. So just before we wrap up, Claudia, how do people find out more about you and what you do and how you help other like practice owners to actually grow their practice?

They can find me on the LinkedIn. I do also have a website, the VIP practice creator.com. and also if you're a patient that wanted to visit us, you can also visit our office in Markham. It's Markham Dental, so there's always. We're all over the Internet so they can find me for sure.

Cool. Cool. Yeah. This is awesome. So thanks for being on the show and we'll see everyone, like next week. Right? So great.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

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