Why Running a Massage Clinic is Unprofitable with Chantalle Barkovich

A billable sale.

Your best arm T is billing 120K. That's what we're saying.

Right. Moment. If I get in a physio and you get, you know, they're 40 hours a week, they're working 90%, their utilization is 90%.

Yeah.

Their billables would roughly be 250 to 75. So that's more than double.

How to get smarter in business and in life. This is the question and I'm on a journey get you that answer. I'm going to interview the world's top entrepreneurs and deconstruct their winning secrets. Going to talk about everything from marketing money and living a bucket list life. I'm Rick Lau, healthcare entrepreneur. I grew and exited my 127 locations in my 30s. Welcome to the Clinic Boss Show. Welcome everyone to clinic by show. Today we got Chantelle Barkovich. She's the CEO of Needed Care. She is a massage therapist who's built a multi million dollar, like, you know, like clinic with like 15 practitioners. You got 400 Google reviews. And she's also a business coach. Right. So, Chantel, welcome.

Thank you. It's awesome being here. I'm so excited.

You are, you are. And so, and I'm curious, Chantal, do you remember how we first met?

I. You know what? I. I can't remember exactly. I know it was at the Clinic Boss Summit.

Okay. And before that, how do we first, first meet? Like, because I think it was back in the olden days when I used to even own my, my Clinic Supplies Canada. Right.

Maybe. I'm not sure. Look, well, definitely I was a, a subscriber for sure. That's where I ordered all my product for Clinic Supplies Canada. But I, I went to the 2019 Clinic Boss Summit. I think that was my first one where we actually connected in person and you know, hi, how are you? And I was so nervous and.

Yeah, I just feel like I've known you all these years, like way longer than that. But maybe our first time meeting was in 2019. Right? You know, like, I think so.

Yeah.

Cool.

Well, what I can tell you is like we have some similar energy styles. So, you know, when we get to talking, sometimes it just keeps going.

Yeah. How would you describe our energy style, Chantel?

And then you drive me to have like more energy and it, and then I think it comes like a squirrel thing. You know, the question here, question there. Interruption question.

Yeah, yeah. We flow well together, right?

Yes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. So anyways, why don't you tell me about your team? Because you have a super cool story, you know, like, and I just want to acknowledge that you are, are like you're a massage therapist. Right? You know?

Right, right. Yeah, yeah.

What I've seen is that like, you know, most RMTs just stick with like having a massage clinic. Right. You know, and when I look at your team, you got physios, you got caros.

Yes.

You got massage therapists. Right. And so, yeah, maybe tell me more about your team and why did you decide to kind of go this path of opening a multi discipline clinic versus your typical massage clinic?

Right, right. Money. Probably just like. What do you mean money? Yeah, money.

Money meaning like, you know, like it was more like it was unprofitable running a massage clinic. Is that what you mean? Or like, you know, or you want to diversify your revenue or you could flip a room more times. Like, what do you mean by money?

All of those things for sure. It all comes down to revenue. And no, for me, the biggest thing was how to grow a profitable business. And what does that model look like? So when I first started, and this is many years ago, I was.

How many years ago? How many girls?

Okay, yeah, I got my registration. 1999. Yeah, like pre 2000. And so I was, I've always been in the leadership role. I was a manager at a couple restaurants, big chain restaurants. And. But then, you know, I started into practice. I had no idea what I was doing. It was massage basically. And at, at some point, it was, I think back in 2003, I decided, okay, I have to make a go with this. And so I quit my managerial job and I was a solo practitioner with, I think one other clinician, another RMT for like, I don't know, seven. Seven years, sort of. And we just kind of ran our practice.

What is it now? Like, how many physios Cairos massage do you have?

We have right now and we're consistently recruiting, but we have five, no, six pts, one pta, a Cairo, we have three rmts. Yeah. And then we're still, we're still adding because we have two more rooms to fill. So we're still consistently adding. Yeah.

Interesting. So let me ask you, like back when you started clinic in 2003, you know.

Yeah.

Did you all, did you always want to build the multidisciplinary clinic?

No, no, no. I think it was 2006 where I said, okay, I gotta make a decision.

Like, what triggered it, like, why, why, why in 2006? Like, you're like, hey, I want to actually have like physios on Payroll, I want to ask.

No. So that was it. I just, it was more for how many years do I have of practicing you we get scared in the mentality of you only have like a 5, 7 year lifespan with massage. And I said, well that's a load of, you know, garbage. I'm going to make it as, as well as I could possibly make it. And so I had one and then I added another massage therapist and it was to two. I think it was four. Yeah, 2000. No, 2012 where I said, okay, I need to, I need to flip this. What are people asking for? And I kept getting, you need to get in a physio, you need to get in a physio. And I was like, I don't know about that. And so I ended up talking to a few and we wanted to revamp the model a little bit. And we've always been our core values as one on one, one on one. You will never come in and be lumped with a bunch of people and the clinics in our surrounding areas. That's what you saw a lot. So we had a, we had a lot of feedback on oh, physio doesn't work. I like, I don't, I don't want to go. And a lot of negative feedback. And I said no, no, there's like, there's tons of physios clinics around. There's gotta be a reason why these, they work, right? So yeah, we just revamped from there, decide, okay, we're going to take the leap of faith. Got one very part time physio in and she was amazing and I think she set the stage at okay, what is the possibility? So then we just, we just, you know, I, at that point, even though I had a lot of leadership skills, I didn't know how to run a business. We, none of us do like or, you know, the majority of us don't. And so I just little by little I figured I don't know what I don't know and I have to ask for help. And that my pivotal point was 2019 when I said I am so done putting out fires and you know, not having the right systems in place, not knowing I'm working 60, 70 hours a week, I'm exhausted. This is not what owning a business is all about. So I joined Clinic accelerator and just got, you know, little tips and worked from that point on. And then of course the pandemic hit which you know, that really threw everything out the window. But you know, one thing that I can say that it actually, although you Know, pushed us back a little bit. It gave me time to sit. Sit and reflect and realize what is my purpose, why am I doing this? What do I want to get out of owning a business? And. And that's when things.

What is it, like, turn around and why do. Why.

I just. It. You know, we always say we all. We love helping people. That's why we got into the business.

It.

It's really. Yeah.

That money.

It is about money. No, it's about, you know, what? I provide livelihoods for people, for my staff, like they are. The number one reason why I get up, you know, in the morning, basically, is because I can provide a real and a good livelihood. We pay our people well. You know, we treat our people well. They are. They're my why. And then, of course, my family and whatnot. But, you know, if I can get them to be happy and consistent with everything that they do, that gives me purpose at the end of the day, knowing that I can help them fulfill their bucket list or I can provide, like, a safe, happy place. So that's why we really pride ourselves on culture. And you guys are really good at understanding. Yeah. Where. Where people's geniuses are. And that's one thing that we've been really digging into the last couple of years is what is your genius and how do we support you to work more in that area?

Okay.

You know, so I've realized a few. A couple of years ago, my genius is wonder and invention. And maybe that's why we get along so well, Rick, is because, like, it's all my brain is always. Does this make sense? How do we make this better? And what do I need to implement to. To make it better? What's the best solution? I'm not going to be the person to actually get my hands dirty and do the work, although I will help out. But I hire people that can do that. That's their genius. And then I look at the outcome. This is the outcome that I want. How do we get there? So that's.

Yeah, I love that. And that's really the role of a CEO.

Right.

You know, like, your role as a CEO is like, one is be able to identify, like, you know, talent, you know, and put them in roles that they're way better than you. Right. You know? Oh, right.

Yeah.

Their zone of genius. We're all saying the same thing, like, using Karen's language here, but, like, zone of genius. Like, we're putting people on the right side of the bus that are really good at doing things that we suck at. Right. You know, that's our job as leaders. Right. And then secondly, our job is to set the vision and strategy so everyone's aligned and growing in the same direction, you know, and third is like making financial decisions. How do we allocate resources, which is money and people. Right. You know, so that, like, we could be able to like, you know, like achieve the vision and strategy. Right. So. But I want to peel the onion back on, like, you know, once again, I just want to reiterate like you're an rmt, you know, you. Most people typically just, you know, have a massage clinic. You decide to go this multidisciplinary approach. Right. You know, and I see a lot of people, I see a lot of like, massage clinics struggling with, like, profit margins. Right. You know, maybe you could talk about that and maybe, you know, how important was that with you switching to more of a multi disciplinary model?

Right. Yeah. So the biggest part of was learning the numbers at the end of the day. How do you make sound decisions if you don't know your numbers? And so now when, you know, when I'm talking to other clinic owners or in coaching or mentoring, that's my first cue to go in there. What's your culture like and what are your numbers? So from that I started looking at my numbers, I started asking the hard questions. I actually started reaching out. I was, I had, for many, many years, I had such a fear of asking, I need help. I don't understand, you know, and because when I looked at it, I had the perception of, you know, our clinic is doing really well. We're getting amazing results all the time. Clinics, you know, clients are, are singing our praises now. I'm at the point where if I want to grow, I better ask for help. And I had such a fear of somebody saying, how heck did you get to this level? You have no idea what your numbers are. You have no, like, you don't know how to run a business. So I was stuck in that analysis paralysis, like, for many, many years. But then it was when I said, you know what, I gotta, like, I gotta kick that to the curb, everybody.

Is, it was unpopular running massage clinic. Right. Is that what just like what you're trying to say? Okay. Yeah. And then because I hear this a lot like, I hear this a lot like, you know, I just want to get into the, like, the tactic part is that, like, you know, like, I see a lot of massage clinics, you know, like, because you pay massage therapist so much.

Right. Yeah.

There's not a lot of overhead left. You Know, to be able to like, you know, have to pay rent and you, you know, whether you could afford a front desk or not, you know, like, then you start questioning is like, hey, do I, is there enough like profits left in the business that I could actually reinvest or even pay my team more so they could check off all these things that you just talked about earlier? Right.

You know, Right, absolutely. So it was me asking those hard questions and reaching out to the, in the mentors and individuals that could help me out with that. And for that was, you're right, you're bang on massage. You're barely making any, any profit at all. And you know, when, when, when that happens or when we need to hire somebody. Yep, I'll hire a massage therapist. You want 70%. Okay, well, okay, that gives me 30%. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that sounds great. Right. And you're really flying by the seat of your pants until you start looking and diving into it. Wait a second. It costs me 20 to 25% just to run the front desk. And that is all of your learn, like your software programs, your staff, the booking, your overhead, blah, blah, blah. Right. I didn't realize at that point that it was at the end of the day, I may have been taking home 2 or 5%. And so. No, yeah, yeah.

A massage therapy only flip that room like once in an hour. Right, right. Like, like, you know, whereas like you got a Cairo or a physio, they're flipping that like just the mathematically, like, you know.

Right.

Like, even if, like I know you pay the physio, you know. Right. You know, the percentage wise, like it might be 50, 50 or 60, 40, whatever that number is. But even from a room utilization, like that room is being flipped two, three times in an hour. Right. You know. Right. Whereas massage, like you're just in that one room for like that 90 minutes.

Yeah. It could be one to two times. So if you look at, let's say billables for massage therapist, if a massage therapist is working about 30 hours a week, and that is actually quite a bit from, from what we've learned. Right. People coming in, they really don't want to work that many hands on, but let's say somebody is like go gung ho.

That is rare. Like that's like six, seven, six hours a day. Right. You know.

Right, right.

Which is like you're talking about like a massage therapist has a lifespan of seven years. Like.

Yes, that's right. So that is, and that, that is how I practice. But it's about keeping yourself you know, going as well. But if you look at that, the. The dollar value at the end of the year is only about a. You're lucky to get 120 to 130,000 of billable sales.

Your best RMT is billing 120k. That's what you're saying, right?

Yes. And if I look and this where kind of, you know, the aha moment. If I get in a physio and you get, you know, they're 40 hours a week, they're working 90%. Their utilization is 90%.

Yeah.

Their billables would roughly be 250 to 75. So that's more than double what you could make off an rmt.

That's where I have enough numbers on a Cairo right now.

No, not yet. Not yet.

But it's very similar to the PC.

It is. Actually, I don't have like a full number, but a rough estimate is over the 300,000 mark. For sure. Yeah. If you're getting, you know, four patients in an hour and you spend an hour doing the assessments or, you know, that. That type flow. Yeah. You're definitely getting between 3 and 350 for Cairo.

Yeah, yeah. And then once again, like back to what you said originally. If that RMT is billing 120 and that PT is billing, let's just say 250, you know, like, ideally, you know, if they're at 80, 90% utilization. Right. That RMT is in that same room. They're plugging that room up. Right?

That's right. And that's exactly where I made the switch. Right. Is it's not about the. The therapist utilization, it's about the room utilization.

Yes, it is.

The room utilization. What's the dollar value? What is that room worth to, you know, your clinic? And so we started looking at it that way, and it was great to have a super accountant and, you know, we're crunching numbers and he says, why are you tying up with. And you know, RMTs are great. And I have to tell you, you know, we. We have such a standing for wait list for RMTs. We, we have most, most clinics have that.

Right. Just because, like, there's a.

No, actually, we have. We have about between 20 and 35 people on the wait list per day. Wow. Yeah.

That's insane. Okay.

It is insane. So here's your dilemma. Like, oh, that's. That's direct income. But at the same time, if they're tying up a room where your profits, you know. Yeah. Are not that much.

Chantel. Like, so, you know, like, you know, you're running a seven figure, like, clinic right now. What percent is your business right now? Like, rmt, PT versus Cairo. Like. Like, what percentage?

Yeah. So right now, and we're in the transition, so we were very RMT heavy at one point. I had 7 or 8 RMTS and 1 PT.

What percentage?

Completely did the flip. And we are at 65 PT and. Yeah, 30. No, 25 RMT now. So we want it. We still want to continue to flip that switch as well. And our goal is to get to PTS around 80 to 85% in there.

Yeah. Yeah. So I. I'm gonna assume that once you made this switch, your profit margins, like, your. Your profits at the bot.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, went up, like, way, way higher. Right. Is that right assumption, Chantel?

Yeah. Okay. You want me to tell you the difference in layman terms?

Sure. Yeah.

The difference is so not in dollar value, but percentage. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I can sleep at night. I know I can pay my. My staff or my ICs, and it's just, you know, that it's a calming effect knowing when I had such a high percentage rmts. And it goes across the board with. I hear it all the time. I can't sleep at night. My finances are out of whack. I have no money in the bank where, you know. Yeah.

Yeah. So what, you know, like, how difficult was it for you to hire your first, like, PT being an rmt, Right? Because, like, you know, like, once again, I'm going back to, like, yeah, like, you know, like, thinking. Right. You know, like, you know, you know, RMT PTs don't want to work for RMTS, and they don't want for a Cairo. Like, they just don't want to work for a pt, you know, or they want to open their own clinic. Like, did you have that or do you still have that, or.

No, no, we don't have that. No, it's not even a question. It was a question when we started hiring, you know, a few extra. But I kind of lucked into our very first one. She was a client.

Okay.

So we just started chatting, and she's actually the one that said, hey, like, you got an empty room. You know, I am looking for another. And I said, I. I don't know anything about the PT world. And we just. We started having coffee, you know, and. And just chatting about it. And.

And how'd you get this pt?

Busy.

Right? Was it just cross. Was it cross referrals? Right. Was that it?

Y. Y.

So let's talk about that, like, what percent of in your clinic right now gets a cross referral for either RMT or PT or Cairo? Like, is it at least 50%, 80%? What do you think your percent cross referral rate is right now? It must be super high, right?

It is really high. But I could, I couldn't even put a number on it right now because we're reevaluating all of that.

What's your best guess?

You think it's over 50% or say 60 to 65%? And that's, that's coming from all disciplines, not just one way.

Yes, like, like someone, like someone who comes in from one service gets an additional service. Right, you know? Right, yeah, that's at least 56 and that's a healthy number because I actually see this like a lot, you know, with a lot of clinics, you know, where, like, you know, like, you know, a PT clinic, Hey, I want to bring in a Cairo. How can I get this Cairo busy. So they're spending all this money on like Google Ads or all this other stuff right? By the end of the day, is that the fast way to actually jumpstart this Cairo? This like new service in your clinic is actually cross referrals. Right? You know, right.

You know, and you know what? So speaking of marketing, our best market and where we hear the feedback if, if somebody's coming to a Cairo, you know, booking their first appointment is, hey, I saw that you have all these services up on your TV advertising. We. So at the front of our clinic we have, you know, all of our physio, massage, yada yada. They don't, they bypass all of that. They figure it out by the TV advertising that we have within our clinic in the reception area. And the posters we put in our bathrooms. We have posters in the clinician's room. We have, we have all of this. That is the biggest comment. Put posters in your washrooms and put it in like two places. When somebody goes to sit down, you're gonna, that's what they're looking at. And when somebody.

So what is on that? Like, like what's on that poster? Is there something related to like pelvic.

Floor or services or, or like, hey, we are hiring. Join our team. You know, like that's all it had. Some I didn't know yet. Cairo.

Yeah.

And like I have ads. Yeah, I love this.

You're talking about old school marketing that people forget to do. Everyone's still like, oh, I got to do this old. I gotta do like all the social media stuff, all the, all the online stuff. But we're talking about like, hey, you already have people. You already have a customer or client come to your clinic, right?

Yeah.

How do they know more about all the other stuff that like you do? Right. You know, so, yeah, so these bathroom posters and then also posters like in the clinical room.

Right.

You know that, that, that talk that. Right.

So, yeah, it's at the front desk in our waiting area. There's a TV and we put all kinds of advertising. Did you know we have pelvic health? Did you know? Or pelvic health physio. Did you know we have chiro. And then we put a little blurb. Right. And you want to know what something else that we're. We're actually tweeting, we're trying to see what kind of return we're going to get to is. We're going back to the old style door knockers.

What do you mean?

So we're going out?

Well, it goes. Really?

Yes. No. Yes, we are.

Okay, well, you live in Brantford, so like there's a hundred thousand people here, but I, I'm gonna assume that you're gonna do the it around, like the postal code around your clinic. Right. You know? Am I right?

Yeah. Well, we have. We draw from three big postcode areas within our, our communities. So we're tapping into each area is.

Okay, so you're doing like door knockers. And so what's gonna be on the door knocker? Like, I'm curious, like, what will it say on it?

It's the same thing. Like there'll be some sort of. Or not. Will be. We have put some sort of promotion on there. And then our list of our services and why. Why you need the. Our services.

Okay.

Okay. And then those specific things and a QR code. Link it back to throwing our cards.

With a QR code. Right. You know?

Right, right.

And are you doing it for all past patients on your. On your list or you just do it to like this, like to like. Yeah. Neighborhoods to everybody. Canada poster. Like. Yep.

No, not Canada Post. No.

What are you doing?

Because it's super. It's really expensive to do it through Canada Post. So you know what, what we're doing.

Is to do it.

Pardon?

You paying your staff to do it?

No. Well, they can if they want. Well, one staff is, but I am recruiting my son's hockey team and I'm gonna pay them 20 to 25 bucks, like for an hour or two, whatever. And then we're heading out in this area. You guys are gonna go down one Strip, whatever. So very low cut. They will do it for pizza.

But, but they're not knocking the door, they just put in the door knockers. Right?

That's it. Yeah. Okay.

So, so have you worked out the numbers? Like how many. If you. For 20. Like, have you done this before? This is your first time.

So this is, this is our first time and we're, we're doing this for a reason why we're doing this because there's so much media out there and, and honestly, who is even looking at that advertising anymore? So I thought, let's go back to old school. We're going to do this. So I'm going to recruit three of my son's hockey team. 25 bucks each. That's 100 bucks and pizza.

100 bucks and pizza. And how many door knockers, how many doors you think they're going to put it on?

Well, we're going to, I'm going to be monitoring, you know, going like, making sure they're doing their work. So we, it was, oh, I want to say like 2500. We just started 2500. We ordered door knockers. I think it cost me 250 bucks. Yeah, so it's not so, so.

And then what's a kilometer radius? Are you going around your clinic?

You know, it'll be in total, seven kilometers.

Seven kilometer radius. Okay. Wow. Interesting.

We have a lot of new development.

Okay.

In our, in our communities. So those are the areas that we're really going to target. And so we're looking at where are our clients coming in. Okay. So it's these three area codes. And then we're going into new development areas and then old stuff as well with disposable income, married, two income earners, families, you know. So we have it strategically mapped out.

Yeah, super interesting. 2500. 2500 door knockers within it.

Yeah.

30 within a 7km radius. That is right.

So let's say, let's say the whole thing.

I'll be, I'll be maybe. I don't know if it's like me or I'm old school, but I actually like reading that stuff. Maybe it's my generation. I don't know.

Me too. Me too.

But I asked, I asked Shade. I was like, because Shade is a Gen Z. I was like, hey, like, do you actually read like, like the physical mail that comes in? She goes, yeah, I actually look at it, you know, Right. You know, and you know, I find it, you know, because it's kind of in your way because, you know, all the, all the important stuff actually come through mail from all the government. Right. So why would you not see it? Right. So.

Well, but the other part of that is because we did look into it. So it's really expensive to put it through the mail and a lot of the stuff that you get in the mail is junk mail. So we wanted to separate and that's why we came up with the door knockers. Something where even if, who knows, if they thr it out, it's still exposure and that. So let's say the whole thing cost me 500 bucks. I'm paying for exposure where somebody will actually, oh, you know what? I do need physio. I do. I'm just going to keep this and then, or you know, refer to somebody. Yeah, it's, it's really just exposure. So we're trialing that right now. Yeah, Love it. Yeah.

Let's go back to cross referrals. What? Like cross referral requires your team on board. Right. You know you got massage therapists. Yeah. Cairos, you got like physios.

Right.

You know, like what would you say is kind of your top like strategies that you do really, you know, promote cross, get cross referrals at your 60% right now, like what are you doing? That actually seems to work. Right.

So in order for anybody to prefer anyone, you have to know like, and trust that's what it comes down to. So I do my due diligence and I pay every single staff. Anytime we get a new person, a new therapist, I pay every single staff. Not pay them, but I pay the for them to go and get a massage, let's say, or a physio treatment or even just to, you know, we highly promote, go and sit down with this person for a half an hour and then allow them to talk about their skills, show them what they do.

So get a free treatment except you pay for it. Right?

Right. We pay the therapist for doing it. Yeah.

Okay.

But you have to know what kind of pressure, what kind of style, you know, are they more education based? Are they more hands on based, yada yada. So we pay for that. But we also in our lunch and learns we will have them come and do a bit of a presentation. These are my skills, this is what I like to focus on. And so, so is it a lunch?

Learn about them just talking about what they do or like you're doing case studies of actual patients where there is multi like services provided. Right.

So we do both. So at the beginning when we first recruit them, they don't have the caseload so they just talk about, these are my skills, this is my specialty. They do a bit of a demo and then as we go on. Yes. That's when they start talking about, okay, I had great success. Success. You know, this client came in with this condition and, you know. Yeah, yeah.

What else? Anything else?

Or cross referrals. That's. That's our biggest one. I can for sure.

Consults or no, like, you know, hey, oh, no, we do like, for example, the. For the pts. Like, hey, why don't you go like, you know, your first visits, like on us or like the first, like 20 or 30 minutes are free. Go see the RMT and the RMT jobs that will do that. Do you still do that or does that work or not?

No, no, we do. That's a really good point. For sure. We absolutely do. Whenever anybody's referring to a specialty and they're a little unsure and it could be something as, okay, my benefits have run out. I just can't afford to come in for.

Yeah.

Oh, well, wait a second. You have Cairo, you have massage.

Yes.

You want to continue your career. So let's, you know, if you're unsure, because somebody will say, we'll definitely get the, the obstacle. Well, I don't know about that. I don't feel comfortable. Okay. Book a free consult. 15 minute. And you know what? You're just talking. There's no obligation. And we get a. We do get quite a few 15 minutes. And our conversion rate of that is. I think the last time was 72%. So we still am working on it.

That's amazing.

72%. And let's say let's pick out physio. Right. They come in, your assessment's a 150, and then every appointment after that is 85 bucks. Maybe they spend 700 bucks.

Yeah.

For their care. Right. That's one person. Yeah.

Do you. Another 700 for like, you know, massage. Right. You got another seven. It depends on the. But most people have like, different buckets. Right?

All right. Yeah, but I mean, that's your. Like your clinic just brought. We did a little study and it was just for like, I can't even remember the numbers, but at the end of the day, we converted so many and that resulted to $21,000.

Okay.

In a quarter.

Okay.

Just by doing 15 minute consults.

Okay. Crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That.

That convert at 70, you know. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. And then, you know, once again, like, I see a lot of clinics do this because, like, you know, when you're short on space. Right. You know, Right. You know, like, like, let me back up. Not you short on space, but like a lot of people use massage therapy as like lead gen for the other services.

Right? Yeah.

Is that something that you see in effective too? Like, hey, you know, like you said you got a daily wait list of 20 people for massage, you know, like.

Right.

Are you converting that into like PT or chiro at least like a free discovery or a free consult or. No, like working.

That is roped into. It's not only the massage therapists that are talking about that. It's roped into every aspect of our business. It's the front desk leak, it is the marketing. Right. So every newsletter that goes out will have some sort of. If you're on the wait list, have you considered all these other treatments we can get you in today, tomorrow, next week or whatever. But those are the. Yeah, it's not only the massage therapists that are doing that. It's the whole team approach which then affects your culture and, you know.

Yeah, cool.

Everybody's working towards the same goal at the end of the day. Yeah.

Well, I had this chat with Nat last week. You know, he owns a clinic in Texas, you know. And did you meet Nat in Florida?

I did, I did, yeah.

Like a, like a nice, like Southern, like, nice, like, guy, you know. Right.

Yeah. He came up to me the next day, he's like, oh man, you got into the wrong profession. You should have been an actress.

You should have. That was like insane, you know?

Yeah, so we had a really good chat about that. But he's.

So Nat's doing this, like, it's interesting. Like, Nat, like if you, if you go to Texas and that, like we had this talk last week is that most of the clinics in Texas are still standalone physical therapy clinics or standalone massage clinics. Right. Or standalone chiropractic clinics. And he's like, he's like, oh my gosh. Like, you know, like. And then he sees kind of like, kind of what, you know, what like you're doing and what, you know, like some other people are doing within our community. Like, oh my gosh, like, you know, like, I got a million dollar PT clinic, you know, I could part like add another million of like Cairo, you know, and then if I add like, you know, in the US it's called lmts, like licensed massage therapists. I could probably add like half a million. A million like that to me is like a 2, 3 million dollar business right here, you know. And, and, and, and what's amazing is that from, from a, from a Google and an online perspective. Like those are three separate, like search terms. And there's equal amount of like people searching for RMT and, and, and also like a lot of people searching for like just physio and a lot of people searching for Karen. Like they want these specific services. So if you actually offer that and your, your website actually came up, you should in theory get two or three much of those phone calls and if you could actually at least you get them in the door and 60 of these people actually do like a cross referral. That's magic. Right? So.

Oh, yeah, for sure. And our biggest thing, we just revamped our core values and it's all about. We call it and we're trying to come with modern times. So we do hashtags and it's all hands on deck. And that is the multidisciplinary. Not one discipline is going to work for every single person out there. So why not try something else? We care about you. We care about you getting better. Try something else and we have it in house.

Yeah, yeah. It's just another like, it's another like traffic term, you know? Right. Marketing standpoint. Like, you know, like. Yeah, you kind of want to get that, you know, and if you could rank for like massage therapy Branford or physiotherapy Bradford or, or chiropractic Branford, like, they'll come to your clinic and then, you know, like somehow and, and yeah, it's just triple as much traffic. Right. So.

Yeah. Cool. You know, and at the end of the day, Rick, it's. Why are you giving somebody else the money? Well, like, if you're not offering that service, why are you. Why are you sending the client out to have that service? You're. You're like walking the patient out the door. Here you go. There goes your money. Yeah. Wow.

So Chantel, how many, how many years did it take you to hit your first million? You know? Right.

Oh, God, our first million. We were stuck. I'm not joking. We were stuck between 650 and 750 for years. And I was, you know, at the point. You don't know. You don't know. It was 20, 19.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you were. Let's back up. So you were stuck.

Yeah.

At that 700, 000 mark. Right. Or 6. 6, 6 or 700,000. For how many years?

Like, well, oh, I think we were stuck for. I'm not gonna lie. Probably between five years, five and seven years. Like, and it was just me flying by the seat of my pants, putting.

Up fires so you're a secondary for five years, like flat growth and then. But. And how many years did it take you to actually hit?

Less than one. One. One year? Yeah.

So within one year you hit.

Yeah.

Okay.

And we went to like, it was like, like dollars over the million.

Okay, yeah.

No, that's not true. I'm sorry, I lied. We went to 850 and then we just like, we tipped over the million the following week.

What's interesting is that I saw people in our community, I think most clinics, like, you know, like once you start the clinic and if you do things right, you know, like, you know, like, it's very easy to get the first couple hundred thousand going. Right. You know, But I do agree a lot of people get stuck at that half a million to like 700,000 mark. Right?

Yeah.

And that's a very, how do I say this tricky place to be because your clinic is just barely making any money, you know, and you're, you know, and if you're stuck there, then you're like, you start questioning like, hey, why am I doing this?

Well, that's what I said earlier. Well, what am I doing? I'm exhausted. I'm like, I'm ready to tap out. If I, if somebody offered me two bucks, you know, at some point, I would have considered it. Yeah.

Yeah. And so if you were to do this all over again. Okay. You know, you do it all over again. It's like, you know, what would you do differently, you know, so that you could hit your first million? Not like in. What is it like, what was it like? It sounds like almost like eight to 10 years. Is that, is that right?

Yeah.

What would you do differently? You know.

Become a student. And I'm always saying this to my, my coaches now is really embrace the mentorship that is out there. There is a ton of like, cl. Accelerator is a really great resource. There's coaches on there to show you and do your homework, Just do your homework, ask for help. That is the biggest thing that I.

Would say outside of coaching tactically, what would you do?

Yeah. So where I did my biggest flip was reflection. And with that is, you know, a process that I went through. I actually booked out a four day retreat for myself for business and I just hashed everything out. My first day was, why, why am I doing this? What are my numbers? What does that look like? The next day was what? Like, you know, what is each department doing? What does that look like? What are the possibilities? The next day is the how. All right, now let's get into how do we do this? And then the fourth day's reflection.

Do you think you could, like, on day one of you opening your. The first year you open your clinic?

Yeah, I, I never asked the questions of, like, what, what do I want my goals to be? And how am I going to measure those? How am I going to keep myself accountable? I, We. I never did that. I looked at, do I have money in the bank? Oh, okay. Yeah, I do. Okay, great. I can pay my people. That's it.

In that sense, you're mapping out, like, kind of your painted picture of like.

Hey, yeah, like, yeah.

And, and what year would you think you would have hit your first million if you did this exercise? Would it be like, like, are you saying like, it's a year three, year five? You're like, what?

I'm sorry, where would I hit the million dollar mark if I did?

If you were to redo this all over again? Right, you know?

Yeah, yeah, I probably would hit it if I'm being realistic. Between three and four years.

Okay, three to four years.

Yeah.

So, yeah, you know, and number one, you said you would start with like, you know, setting reflection and setting like, you know, a business intent with like, goals and, you know, obviously, like, get resources to like, plan out so that, hey, year four, I'm gonna hit a million, right?

Yeah, yeah. You have to set those goals, those intentions. If you don't, you're. You're not working towards anything. And I wasn't.

Okay, so you've done that. And then what's the next thing that you would do?

Right?

You know, big picture again, like, what would you do in year one? Like, how would you jump start? Like, you know, like I think we talked about initially, like, like, you know, like, would you, like, you know, like, when you first started, you got stuck because you were just like focusing. Rmt, it sounds like, right. You know, like, you may be an rmt, right? You know, like, let's say you're an rmt. Like, what would you do? Like, would, like you would probably just. Are you looking to hire your first physio first or like.

So first things I would do is for sure look at my profit loss and then I would look at market trends. What is like, you know, what's an up and coming thing that's coming out where I could actually grow my business? So that's, that's the next thing. Doing a business plan is so really important.

What do you mean by that? Yeah, what do you mean by that? Specific. Like, what, what do you mean? Like, it's trending you.

Well, I want to know, like, what are people looking for? You know, if I, if I'm in the, in the health care industry and you know, the extended health care, what health care or modalities are people services? Are people actually looking for. Yeah. Where is the trend in that? Do people need. What's the calling for physio chiro massage?

You know, all Google Analytics and finding out like search volume. How many people are searching for pelvic floor, like women's health, like physio massage. Right?

You know that's right. Yeah. So do your market research. That would be the first thing. Look into your numbers and, and map out a plan. Okay. What is the goal that I want to reach and, and how am I going to do that? I know I have to market, I know I have to recruit.

What would your, what would you do with marketing within your first year? Like, what would you do? Would you do door knockers? Like what?

No, no, no, no. I would.

Like where like you started off, you didn money, you know, and like.

Right.

It's easy to reflect that you will do this now. But like when you first started off, like, you don't like, let's be honest, most people are not gonna sign up for Koji. They're not gonna do all this business plans that we're talking about. Right. But like, you know, like, yeah, they're literally like, you know, like, I gotta make money to pay rent.

Yeah, that's right. And I'll tell you how I actually started growing and this worked beautifully. And now we're coming back to terms again is networking. Get to know your community, get out there, talk to people.

Love it.

You know, that's where I would start my marketing. Amongst everything else that's online, you have to have a presence, an online presence.

All the, all do all the. Call it business development relation, like all the relationship within the community, like events.

Right.

You know. Right. You know, right. Tackle these Facebook groups, like within your like local thing. You know, get involved with like all those sporting events and local influence. Is that what I'm hearing, Chantal?

Yes, for sure. And not just there, but do like, I really support women in business. So I go and we have a booth and we really support the chambers. Women in business. Yeah, that's. That's a really big one because again, people will know like, and trust and they'll go to you. I got a really good story for that. So I became a very big chamber member and won the 2009 Entrepreneur of the year, which was really cool. And, but it really hit me when I realized how, how much networking worked because the, the president of the Chamber came in and she was having service and she just made a comment. She says, I really know this networking works because all I see are chamber members here and had a whole waiting list, like a whole waiting room of chamber members. And that's where the kind of the aha moments. Oh, I gotta keep going to these.

So. So would you recommend, like, every single, like, owner sign up for Chamber of Commerce in their city?

I. It depends on the city.

Yeah.

If, if your city is really involved with the community events, then absolutely. And you can't just sign up. That does not work.

Most chambers, like, within, like a local.

Like, no, some are not. I've heard some cities are better than others, but. Or whatever it is, if it's the Rotary Club, if it's the Chamber, whatever, right. Sign up where there's a lot of good happening. They want to support each other. They have a lot of events and get to know your people. And so here's another story. My husband said, oh, my God, do we have to go to the restaurant? You're like a local celebrity here. Everybody knows you. They come and talk to you. And there's a testament as well. Get to know your people in your community. Right? Who are they going to think about when you, when they need help? They need a massage, they need physio, they need Cairo, whatever. Oh, let's go, let's go visit Chantal. And at one point, like, I wanted to remove myself from being the face of the business because, well, now we have a group of people, right? So now I, I get my staff to go and I will pay them. Go to this event. You know, just, just your only job when you go is to talk to as many people as possible.

Okay.

That's all I care about. Right. Give your card out. Talk.

Okay.

Yeah, cool.

You do the chambers Rotary Club. You do, like, all these community events. You know, what else would you. To kick start your, your, your first year on the market?

That's a really big one because that one's. I think that's.

Do you think that's enough to get you started?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. It's really time consuming to network, get to know other businesses and help to support other businesses. And we do that all the time, right? Like, whether it's, hey, you're having a promotion, think of us, we'll donate to it, and we do that all the time. Or we'll put on social media. Hey, have you. I ran into this Gem, you got to go and check out this restaurant. It's amazing. Family run, whatever. Those are the people that are going to support you. Yeah, yeah.

Cool.

We are big, big community. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love that. And then, and then what would your sequence of hires be, right? You know, you being a massage therapist again, Would your next hire be a massage therapist, a pt, A Cairo or.

Yeah. So we've realized with analyzing our numbers that we have the most profits in the PT department and so that. Why would we not put, you know, more eggs in that basket if we have to, in order to be able to pay our people and pay them well, we have to figure that out. So we, we are on target for. I would like to have sooner rather than later, 10pts and a bunch of PT, PTA supports. Yeah, yeah, I love that.

That's so awesome. And you know what? Like, I. I wish. Yeah. This is interesting because do you know, do you know Brenda in. Have you met Brenda in, like, Victoria?

Yeah, yeah. Brenda Beatty.

Yes.

Right.

She's kind of built this crazy, like, massage business and, and she's going through this process where like, I, I don't know how much massage. I think she has at least like, like, like 100 massage. I don't know. She has, like, a lot of massage, right?

Yeah, Yeah. I think she's got multiple clinics. Yeah.

Like 20 or 30 massage therapists there. Like, it's just crazy. And then she's. She's hitting this point now too, like, where she is, like, I need to diversify, you know, I need to, like, you know, to do that. Right. So, like, she's, you know, it's kind of cool to see her journey introducing like, physio or chiro in her massage clinic. Right. You know.

Right. Yeah. And I think our biggest thing, the reason why is we're going back to cross referrals again. You know, you can just help so many more people.

Yeah, yeah. 100%. Yeah. And here's the thing, you know, I know we talk a lot about profits and, you know, and all this stuff at the end of it is that, like, you have to run a clinic that is like, providing like, amazing care or people are going to come back. Right. You know, and then secondly is that if your clinic doesn't make money, you can't reinvest and pay people more. Right. Because, like, that's just a reality of, like, life right now. Is that, like. And third is that if you're a clinic that is, like, not growing, you know, you know, it's going to be hard yeah, you're dead. But, like, you're going to.

Yeah.

Like, people want to work with part of, like, a winning team. Like, they want to win, you know? Right. Or they want to be part of something that is, like, growing. They want to be part of it. And so I think it's critical for every business owner and CEO to actually want growth. You know, not. Not only will make you more profits, but your employees, because they want the opportunity. They want to be paid more, you know? Right.

So, absolutely. Oh, you know what? We just did our very first hive mind session with our staff. And so what I put it out there, and I said, listen, this is total brainstorming. This is optional. It's not being paid it. We're all about growth, and we're looking for new ideas, fresh material. What. We had 50% of our staff show up and prepared, and the other staff, they had other commitments and so on, but a lot of them actually gave us notes and what they wanted to talk about and get it through. But I was just amazed at the level of engagement that we had from the people that attended or sent notes or whatever. They want that growth. They want to see. Well, what else can I offer within this clinic? It's a great place to work. What. What's my next thing? Because I have. I have people that have been here for a long time, so. Yeah. Wow.

Super. So, Chantel, like, you know, I. I know you're one of our awesome, like, business coaches within clinic accelerator, you know, and let me ask you, what is your. What is your ideal person that you work with that you're getting really good results with? Like, can you describe what that. That ideal, like, you know, like, I call it, like, ideal, like, owner would look like that, where your superpowers could, like, really help them to, like, hit that million dollars, like, faster.

Do you know? The. The ones that have seen the most growth is honestly the ones that are hitting rock bottom. And so we have a lot of intimate conversations. It's more about coaching at this point. Point than it is mentoring. It's a lot of asking what questions, you know, like, what's. What's. Oh, my God. I'm totally drawn to, like, what's the most important thing for you today? And picking the one thing. They're the ones that I'm seeing the. With the most results, the most growth, the most, like, and it's because, like.

They'Re so fed up up and, like, yeah, they're so at the.

Yeah. You know, that, like, at the end of the day, I'm not sleeping at night. I have no connection with my family. I have no personal time. My health sucks. I'm the most, you know, weight I've ever been. Like, they're just at that point where they are so stuck and they don't know they need, they're. They're reaching out, they're crying out for help. At this point point, that is the ones where we've seen the most growth and the turnaround, they're willing to put in the time and effort, even if, even if it's a half an hour, a week or an hour, whatever. Okay, let's be very specific. Let's strategize this out. Strategic planning is absolutely paramount for you at this point. Measurable goals. What's going to be your next step? And they need that step by step, that process. What's the first thing?

First thing, right, you know, like. Yeah, yeah, like having a, having a coach to keep you accountable right, through your ups and downs, you know, and challenge you when, like, you are at rock bottom, you know, solve these problems together. Right?

That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, what about like a size of clinic, you know, like, you know, like, is it that. Is that. That stuff we talked about earlier, like that, that half a million to 700,000 mark, or is it more for, like that, you know, that, that's that. That sole premier that. Who is stuck at that 2,300,000 mark, you know, like, what is. What have you seen?

No, it's like the biggest ones are between 5 and 750. And then I do have quite a few that are over, like 1.3, 1.45 million. But, but there's. They're stuck with different challenges. And those challenges are more culture, not having the right people in the right seats, not knowing your geniuses, too many people, hands in the pot sort of thing. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. Interesting. Wow. It's funny, like, when I think about my leadership journey over the years, you know, I might have shared this with you. Like, when I first started in this game, when I first became like a boss, right, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I was like, I was like a dictator, you know, like, I'm the boss. Do this, do that. And then, like, I got burned, right? Because all these people, like, would leave me, right. You know? Right. And then I was like, oh, like. And then I went from a dictator to becoming a people pleaser, right? So then I would, like, make all these people, like, love me, don't leave me. I'll do whatever you want. I'll give to You. And then like, and then also, like, they would leave me because, like, we weren't winning, couldn't pay them more, they didn't see the opportunity and they also weren't feeling challenged. You know, if you enjoy my content, I write a clinic owner newsletter. I share with you what's trending right now in marketing, selling your business, recruitment operations, front desk and more. Become a better clinic owner. Join over 22,000 clinic owners who get this free newsletter each week. Go to clinicowner.com to sign up today. And then, and now, like in my leadership journey, I'm like, hey, you know, for me to actually be really effective in business, I have to operate like a coach, right? With like my leadership team, which means I, I need to be able to like, challenge them, right? But I also need to be able to like, challenge them, but also be able to like support their wins at the same time. Like, it's like this push and pull in this relationship, you know, just like, just like, you know, like these Olympic athletes who have like a coach, you know, who supports their wins but also challenges them not makes it too easy, right? So it's like this interesting journey that I've kind of experienced over the years. Is that something that you're kind of going through?

It's very, very similar. And what I actually, and I just started not too long ago this year, a coaching program for myself, like how to become a better coach. How to, you know, and the biggest thing that I've seen exactly, you're bang on Rick. And my first thing, why I started talking about why am I so tired after these coaching sessions? I'm exhausted. And she said, because you're doing all the work. What do you mean? I'm doing all the work? So I'm doing a lot of mentorship, how to. But now we're switching it where it's more of a co collaboration. And I'm actually. You're the, you're the expert. So how do I pull out from you what, you know, what are you willing to do and on your time frame. And then let's pull out the metrics and the measurements and you know, and then I hold you accountable. That's. We're kind of going full circle. Instead of being so much mentor, I'm still going to say, okay, you're. And I do a lot of P and L reviews. Okay. This is where I'm seeing an issue. Maybe focus on this or you know, on your cost of good sold your.

I love P L reviews. It's my favorite. It's like a true, it's a true test to see like whether you're effective or not as a leader. Can you actually move, can you move someone's like profit loss statements to actually increase? You know, all the other stuff is like, is the hard work to get there, but the true transparency results is like whether, like hey, is it actually having an objective outcome? Right.

So. Right. So we look at that every single month and it's, you know, are you making the changes that you need to do? Yeah. So that's how my coaching is evolving is I'm more doing co collaboration and allowing the coachee to be the expert in their field.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So last question, Chantel. If you had a thousand bucks to spend this month, you know, to get you like, you know, new business, new patience for next month, like how, how would you spend it? What would you spend it on? Door knockers.

Well, that's. You know what? Because we're doing that right now. Yeah, yeah. You know what, honestly, it would be. Let's go back old school and let's just keep tweaking. You know, I don't believe in failures. It's always okay what didn't work and how do we tweak it to make it work?

So door knockers and like. Yeah, these, these Rotary, Rotary clubs, More networking engagement.

Yeah. Because with COVID right. We fell away from that and now we're, now we're getting back into it and we're, we're just. Everybody's starving for it. Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely.

Everyone is starving for in person events. Like people is tired of like all this online, you know, and so.

Right.

I see it, you know.

Yeah.

What about, what about Facebook groups? Like do you see, have you found Facebook groups being effective? Like going after like whether at the like call it like networking online on like, like, like whether it's like a pickleball group or a mom's group or that local community, like you know, the neighborhood group.

Yeah, definitely. But our rate of return is not the same with those.

Okay.

And because we haven't built the relationships with those people, we're not getting the same outcome. So if we do get somebody come in the do, they're not spending as much money, they're more in out or they're more sporadic. Okay. You know, it's. Yeah. The level of commitment is not the same.

Yeah. Interesting. And I just put this in context. You live in a city that has a hundred thousand people. Right?

Right.

So community is super, super important. Right. You know?

Yeah, yeah.

It might be different in a Big city that has a million people. Right. You know, where like. Yeah, people just want to spend Google Ads. I don't really want to get to know you. Right. You know.

Right, right, right. Yes, totally. But that's you doing your marketing research, right? What. What works in your community and. Yeah, yeah, Amazing.

All right, Chantel, what is the best way for people to find out more about you or get a hold of you?

Well, I only needed care and that spelt like you're kneading dough. So K and E ad. We say that because we use all our hands. Right. So website there. I am a coach through clinic accelerator. That's probably one of the bigger ones in ways to get a hold of me. Yeah.

Instagram, LinkedIn, you're on that.

Yeah, I have LinkedIn, Instagram, and it's just under like. Well, we have our needed care page, but I do have a personal page. I'm more active on LinkedIn and doing more. I'm actually doing a course for that next month. More engagement and stuff like that on LinkedIn because I'm. I'm gravitating to more of the business than Instagram, but definitely have an Instagram Facebook.

Cool. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the show and thanks for having me chatting up with you. Right.

So, yeah, this has been great.

Rick, if you found this helpful and want some free resources to help you be an even better clinic owner, head over to clinicbosstools.com we've got tons of free stuff on getting new patients, bone scripts, selling your clinic, managing clinical teams, and much more at over over to clinicbosstools. Com.