Commercial Truck Estimating That Actually Gets Paid - Dean Hancock - Hero Group Episode 7

Collision repair isn't just fixing cars. You've got auto body repair shops and you've got commercial truck shops. And sometimes you have shops that do both. If you've ever considered expanding into commercial trucks or trucks is your entire focus, this episode will give you a clear picture of what's actually different and what you need to tighten up to win more of that work. Dean Hancock is one of the sharpest estimators I've ever met in the heavy duty side. That's why we wanted him to join our team here at the Hero Group to to help support HD truck shop owners. This is an estimating episode, but for HD trucks, we get into the nuances between truck and auto collision, how to get your estimators writing better, more defensible estimates, and how to close more of the jobs that cross your desk. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Welcome to my podcast Operational Intelligence. I'm Tom zobelin. I spent 15 years running a marketing agency in the collision industry. I sold it and now I build AI tools at the HERO Group to help shops run better. My favorite part of my agency was never discussing marketing, but it was spending time with the shop owners on the phone and on the shop floor, learning what they were dialed in on and what they tried, what they failed and what finally worked. The world does not need another cuisine podcast full of generic industry talk. So I'm doing this one my way. It's all about owners teaching owners one episode, one topic, and one operational lesson that you can take back to your shop and use. And seriously, what is it with all these marketing people turned podcast hosts? Anyway? So Dean, thanks for being on the podcast. You know, I've known you for three years now. We met the first time at the HD Truck Repair Forum and I know that you owned a shop. I know you owned a commercial truck shop. And this episode is going to focus a lot on the commercial truck side. But I actually don't know how you got into the commercial truck business versus, like auto body or, you know, what's your origin story?

You know, it's funny, it was pure accident actually. You know, I had taken auto body in high school and got out into the field and worked my way up to be a painter for a dealership. And one of the local jobbers decided that they wanted to hire me to go out and sell. I knew nothing about sales. They put me on a truck and said, hey, we'll see you Friday and gave me a general area to go to. And I had previously, in the late 80s, went to work At a truck shop, and we did trucks. But. And I can remember that conversation with him whenever, you know, the amount of work really fell off. You know, he was, I hate to have to let you go here at Christmas and. And all of that. And, you know, I remember talking to him and saying, you know what? I am too short to be painting cab over roofs, you know, and I really want to go back to cars. And I did. And he was. He was good. And we. And we remained friends over the years. And I went down the path of into sales for a local jobber and spent nine years with Sherwin Williams as a fleet direct rep and a jobber rep all bundled into one. And oddly enough, he became one of my customers.

Okay.

And I was sitting in his office one day and he said, you know, I really want to retire in the next year or two. I really want to retire. And I said, well, what's your exit strategy? And he says, you know, I don't have one. I don't have anybody here that I feel like can take over the business and knows the front end and the back end. And I've been helping them some with their numbers and setting up processes. And he said, you know, I'd like for you to do it. And that kind of led into the conversation of what it looked like and the timeframe. And I left Sherwin and ran the shop for two years to make sure that's what I wanted to do. And in the two years, I fought him out.

Wow.

Our primary focus was heavy duty trucks, even though we did do some cars.

So how long did you own the shop for after that?

Only for 15 years.

Only 15? Yeah.

Yeah.

And then you. You sold it. And that's kind of rare in the commercial truck world right now. Like in the auto body side, everyone's selling, you know, to consolidators and stuff. But you actually did sell to a consolidator, right? You sold it to a chain shop, right?

Yes, yes, I was. So when I owned the shop, I went to my paint supplier and said, you know, hey, I'd like to have a. A 20 group for trucks. And so since it was my idea, I got to pick the facilitator. And we ended up having a really good group. And the HD Repair Forum had started, and I was teaching estimating classes for that paint company, and I was doing a class at the HD Repair Forum, and gentleman with Gerber just happened to be sitting in the audience, and he come up to me after the class and said, hey, you ever thought about selling and Jokingly I said, man, every day. Well, he wasn't. That Monday he called me and said, hey, I wasn't playing, I want to buy the shop. And that took about a year and we finalized the purchase and I spent, worked out my contract with them and decided to, to come home after that.

Yeah. So does Gerber own a lot of commercial truck shops or were they just dabbling in it at the time?

So they had bought some acquisition, you know, some acquisition. Through some acquisitions, they acquired some truck shops.

Okay.

If I'm not mistaken, I was the first one they just bought outright without being part of an acquisition. But you know, there was nine that was in, in the same group that I was in and I think there was a couple more. So they probably had about 12 truck shops all together.

So were you, you were seriously looking at, I mean, I know you said you did it jokingly, but there must have been a part of you that was looking to exit at that point.

Yeah, you know, it's always in the back of your mind, you know, you think, well, my boys did not want any part of the shop. So, you know, you start thinking, you know, what's my exit strategy going to be? How well, who am I going to leave this to one day? And it was just good timing.

Yeah, yeah. Same thing kind of happened with me with my marketing agency. I was, you know, you get these calls all the time. Like anytime you own a business that's doing pretty well, you get reach outs from people and some are serious and some are not. And I'd actually had an offer two or three years before I sold it that it would have made us a bigger agency. It would have been a roll up like a Gerber, where I would have been part of this new company. And that didn't fall, that fell through. But then it really kind of planted the seed in my mind about my exit strategy. So. Yeah. And you know, it does it. It is kind of always in the back of your mind sort of gnawing at you like, you know, if the right thing comes along, you know, maybe there's something's telling you that this is what you should do next, you know, so. And then I had the, all the software stuff that I was working on too. So it just made the right, the timing was right for me also.

Yeah.

So yeah. So for this episode, what we want to discuss, because there's two things that you're kind of known for, I think in the commercial truck world. One is your sops and you actually have a company that handles sops. For the commercial truck world. But we want to talk about estimating because you've been teaching estimating long before you even sold your shop. And I think estimating this may be a pretty interesting episode, Even to auto body shop owners who are looking to expand maybe in a commercial truck. I always tell shop owners that they are making a mistake by not considering commercial truck Because I think there's a lot of opportunity there when the. When the auto body side has dips and valleys. You know, commercial trucks are out there with not a lot. There's not a ton of commercial truck shops out there. You don't have near the competition. And if you understand how to fix cars, it's safe to say you could fix a truck. Right? A commercial truck. Is it all that different, really, and jumping from one to the other?

I don't think so. You know, we did trucks and cars in the shop, and I don't think a lot of the guys that ended up working on the truck started out on cars.

Yeah, yeah, so. So are they afraid of them just because they're so big and unfamiliar? You think that's why people kind of shy away from it?

I think so. I think, you know, just the sheer size of them and having to climb ladders.

Yeah, they.

They tend to be, you know, back office a little bit. Say, you know, this is. This is not for me.

You know, I've been in four commercial truck shops now. Two. Two big chain ones, and then two independent shop owners. And it's such a stark contrast to an auto body shop. Like, for example, you walk into an auto body repair shop and there's a space for parts. Everything that's come off a vehicle is in a rack or in a bin or in a trailer outside or something. It's organized and it's out somewhere. You go in a commercial truck shop and the parts are just laying right there right next to the truck. It just comes off and just lays right there. So that's like the first thing that you kind of notice. You see all these trucks and you're like, well, where's your part department? And they're. They're like, what do you. What part department? This. They're just right here. And the other thing is how long they sit there. You know, like a truck stays there a while and they're not. You go to an auto body shop, if you. If you stay in the office and you come out like three times a day, there's. Most of the cars have changed, but you can come out to a commercial truck shop for an Entire week and everything's exactly where it was the day you first came out there. So that's kind of an interesting thing too is that they occupy a lot of space and they don't move around a lot. You're not jumping between vehicles. How long does it take on average for you to fix a commercial truck versus a car? What's the average cycle time on a commercial truck?

I've seen everything from 15 to 20 days in some cases, depending on the severity of the wreck, of course. But you know, it's just, it's such a different world. There's good and bad to both sides of doing trucks versus cars.

So. And part of that too is the estimating process. Right. So you know, like, you know, you can walk us through here, but like just getting parts, you know, when you, when you craft an estimate, that's probably is it. Would you. Is it safe to say that there's more time spent on building the estimate even than there's almost as much cycle time in the estimating process as there is in the repair? It seems like.

Yeah, yeah. You know, years ago the trucks were not included on the Right to Repair act, so they don't have to share that information as far as OEM position statements or parts pricing. So, you know, it all begins too with the truck. A lot of trucks, most trucks are custom ordered. It's not like a car where you buy an F150 and it's got this package or that package. These trucks could have just tons and tons of different layouts on the inside. They might have wet tanks, they might have drop axles. There's just a ton of stuff. So a lot of times that information is not in the software because it is a custom order. And then, you know, you get into it and there is no parts pricing. You have to call and get quotes. So it depends on what kind of relationship you got with your vendors of how quick you get a parts quote back. Sometimes you might wait three to five days just to get a quote back.

Yeah.

And then on top of that, a lot of the trucks are self insured, so you got to go to the truck to look at them. It's not like the car where we get a DRP directing the cars to you or the people are driving it to you.

Right. And that could be pretty far away. Right. Like you said, sometimes three to four hours one direction.

Right. And on a big area you will

in the COVID So from phone call to the truck is in the shop ready to be repaired, you know, including looking at the Truck, writing the estimate, getting the parts quote, all that stuff and then getting it approved. How long are we talking there? Is that over a week?

It could be more. It could be a week, it could be more depending on this truck. An over the road driver, is he going to California, from East coast to west coast and he's going to bring it in when he comes back in or you know, can I get a rental truck?

Right. So like he's driving around with it damaged, you mean? Yeah, yeah, I guess that's true. I kind of assume that you're getting them when they're, you know, not drivable or not considered safe. But if it's just, is it, I guess cosmetic damage? I mean, if the cab's mangled, I mean, what usually happens on a commercial truck? What are some of the typical repairs that you. That happen on them?

We did a lot of hood repairs, hood seems like. And there are shops out there that do swing hoods. They'll provide you with a swing hood so you can keep rolling, which I think is a good idea.

So explain what that is.

So they'll have a hood for that particular model already ready to set onto the truck. And they put their name and phone number all over the hood and then they repair or have the hood ready to go. When the truck comes back in, they just swap the hood out.

So it may be a different color and stuff like that, but it has like the truck shops. You know, I don't think I've ever seen that on the road, like a swapped out hood. But I'll have to pay attention to that next time. See if I. Now I'll probably start spotting them everywhere. But I didn't realize that. Yeah, I did marketing for Garmat and they do a lot with commercial truck and there was. They do a lot with Volvo and the Volvo, I forget what it is, but Volvo has, they have a division that if a part in their production line gets dropped, but it's not damaged, but maybe the paint's damaged or whatever, they, they recycle them. And hoods was another one of those where because this is such a big unit moving around the factory, they make it chipped or scratched or whatever. And so they'll put it back through and then they'll sell that part as a not, not a OEM part. But they had another term for it, not like optoem on the auto body side. It was kind of like that concept. So you know, that whole idea of just having these, these hoods just kind of sitting there is you Know, kind of interesting.

Yeah. And you think some of those hoods are almost as big as some of these small electric cars?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because. And that's the other thing, too, that surprised me about trucks is how you repair them. So there's what, four bolts that hold the cab to the frame or something like that.

Yeah. It just depends on what's in there, you know, how big the sleeper is.

But it's not many, Right? It's.

It's not. It's not too many.

And a lot of times on these repairs, you're actually pulling the whole engine drivetrain out of it, right?

Well, it depends. You know, sometimes we did very little pulling engine and transmissions out. If we could push the frame with it in, we would. If we couldn't, then, you know, engine transmission had to come out.

Yeah. Because I've seen. I've seen a lot of truck at the truck shops I've been to where just the whole cab's just sitting there. The whole. The rest of the truck's sitting out in the. In the lot or whatever, but just the cabs there.

Yeah. We tried to paint as many parts off as we could.

Yeah.

And, you know, we tried to also schedule to wear the same color, get the paint shop at the same time, especially with hoods.

Yeah.

It didn't take long to figure out. I can get six hoods in one booth.

So are you painting to order, or do you have, like, a whole mix station, like, you know, where you can mix any color on. On this, you know, on the fly? Because it seems like when I was at a premier location, there was actually a truck in there that they couldn't paint because they didn't have the paint yet. It was on back order or something, which I thought was kind of weird because most shops just. Just mix the color right there.

Right.

But is that not how it works in truck?

Yeah, same thing. And unless they had a toner, you know, or I know, some of those trucks have a glass flake in them.

Okay.

You know, maybe you got something like that or a. Or a mica that's on back order.

Okay. Maybe that's what it was. Okay. All right. So with estimating on the commercial truck side, because you're teaching these classes, what are some of the things that you experience with most truck shop estimators? Because you're not just teaching young guys fresh into the field. You're having classes with people that have been in this business a long time. What are some of the things that you think the commercial truck shop world just Seems to kind of miss. And why. Why do you think that is?

I think the biggest thing they miss is OE requirements for. For the repairs.

Yeah.

You know, we. I can remember a few years ago, before I started doing the advanced class, one of the things in the fundamentals classes we talked about was seat belts. And you know, I always say the truck world's at least 10, 15 years behind the car world, and nobody's putting on their estimates to inspect seat belts or replace seat belts. And the OEM, majority of the OEMs say that you have to at least inspect it. Folks like Freightliner says you have to replace it when it's involved in an accident. So there's a lot of things that these folks are not putting on their estimates. I think I did a class for one group that said if they just got 0.5 for what they are supposed to be charging for, it would add $4 million to their income.

Just 0.5 of labor hours. Just of body labor. Just somewhere in the estimate.

Right.

And that's easily missed because if they're not even putting stuff like safety inspections, and that's all driven because this weird thing with commercial truck where you can't access the OEM procedures, they. They don't. Like we're. The. We're on the auto body side. They want you to have access to it. You have to pay, but they want you to be able to. To get in there and see it. But with the commercial truck side, that's not the case. Right, right. And so you had told me a story that where unless you sell that particular model, you can't. Like, you could be a Freightliner dealer, but if you don't sell that certain model, you can't even get access to it. Right. Is that what you were saying? Something like that?

Yeah. So they. They usually to have those position statements, you gotta be a dealer or somebody like a Penske just to have access to them.

Because of the volume. Because of the volume Penske's doing.

Right. And the dealers.

Yeah. Cause they own dealerships. Yeah. Okay.

But I find that most people miss way more than 0.5 on estimates. Because we do a lot of exercises in the class and they're based upon OEM position statements. And by the time they finish either Fundamentals or Advance, you know, they. They were like, wow, I didn't even realize that we're. That the doors don't come with corrosion protection and I gotta put cavity wax in them.

So how did you become this expert in. In the truck repair? Estimating was it because of your automotive background, you kind of understood what went into it or.

Yeah, that. And you know, I always looked at it like I'm already here, so what else can I, can I charge for on my estimate that I'm, that I need to do anyway? So we, I started researching everything and then I started getting my hands on OE position statements and I just started collecting them. And you know, over time you start adding those things. And it's not a lot of insurance companies involved. There are some, but most trucking companies are self insured. So you got to educate the customer why you're putting this on the estimate. You know, for an example is Volvo requires that you do a destructive well test. A lot of people's gonna push back on you and say why are you charging me for this? Well, Volvo says that it is required in a position statement.

So does that usually win the argument? Do they keep pushing back like on the insurance side, like the auto collision side? Right now it's nothing but pushback. You know, that's why we have this whole reclaimer product coming out. But you're having somebody that's self paid but it's not their personal vehicle. So are they more apt to pay, pay those things even though your estimate may be higher but because you're able to prove that this vehicle needs this thing, that they don't really argue with that.

I get a lot of less pushback from the fleets out there. Of course the insurance companies at first want to push back because there's something new they've never seen before. So when you show em the documentation, you know, they, they're like, okay, okay, if the OEM says that you have to do it, that's fine, I'll pay it. So.

Which is not what I'm hearing on the auto body side, but that's why we built this product, to help fight that. But some, some shops are saying no, they just, they just don't want to pay it. And they can say they don't want to pay it and they're not going to pay it and that's the end of it. But I also talk to shops all the time that they're like, no, that's not how it is at all. If we can document it, we can get paid on it most of the time.

Right?

I, I think there's one insurance company that starts with an S that everybody points to and says that they just do not pay, period. And that's, that's the end of it. But that's just one insurance company out of A whole lot of them, you know, but do you have that too on, on the truck side or is it, is it just because they're so unfamiliar with trucks that, that they don't have really the, the skill set to deny things like they do on auto body side.

So I approach it a little differently. You know, the first thing I ask when I'm, when I get pushed back is is it required to put it back to pre accident condition? And if the answer is yes, then I'm going to go to the next question. Is it included in another operation then? And if the answer is no, then we're going to move to the next one. And then the third question I ask, is there a predetermined time? And if the answer is yes, then we're done. If the answer is no, then the next question I'm going to ask is what do you think it's worth? Now we can negotiate what it is worth without, you know, the last thing you want is somebody coming in a shop and you go, oh my God, here comes Rob. Or he says the same about you. So I go through those four questions and if we can get through those four questions and negotiate at the end, then nobody's mad.

And that's with the insurance company or that's with the, with the, the fleet owner as well.

Done it with both.

Yeah. So. So they, you do sometimes get pushback then from the, the fleet. What is it on the other end? Fleet manager. What's that position called?

Yeah, probably a lot of most time it's a fleet manager.

Okay. And he's responsible for like a geographical thing or is he the whole fleet all across the country?

Yes, usually a geographical thing. And typically those guys are more familiar with the mechanical side than the collision side.

Yeah. So when you, when you submit an estimate to, to get a truck repaired, are you one of multiple people? Is it because I know like on the municipal side you have to bid and it's the low bidder, but what about, what about on the fleet side? Are they, is that fleet manager calling five shops and saying, hey, I need you to estimate this for me, or they just, they just kind of you, you land that account and then you just keep getting all the work.

I think it's a little of both, you know, because you have different scenarios. I know like you said, with municipalities it is. And the government is going to be a bid. So some of these fleet companies have trucks that are theirs and then they have maintenance contracts as well. So if you're doing one of their trucks more Than likely you're just writing the estimate. They say, yes, we're going to approve it or we're going to send it to our body shop. If it's a maintenance contract, then they may get two estimates.

Okay, so I would imagine then your estimates are higher because they're more thorough in some cases.

Yeah.

And so do you get pushback on those or, or do they, because you're, they're more thorough, you actually get the business.

Yeah, I think they, they realize that, hey, this guy didn't put a cooling pack on it or he missed this or he missed that or she missed this or she missed that and they realized that. Well, if he's going to be that thorough on his estimate, they're going to be that thorough on the repairs.

Yeah. And we're probably not going to get hit with surprise bills, you know.

Right. So, you know, I try to tell them too. I mean, that's £80,000. Most cases going down the road, you know, that's, that's going to take out a lot more people than just the driver of that truck. It could be your wife and kids on the road with that truck.

Yeah. And how long ago was it that you sold your shop?

Almost five years.

So was adas. I know ADAS is starting to come out into the truck world. Did you have a lot of ADAs?

We did not. Yeah, we did not. I had to go through Bendix brake school and learn all the ADAS stuff. You know, what's included, what's not included, what calibrations need to be done. That way I can speak correctly in these classes on what's involved with adas.

So they're getting. The commercial trucks now are getting auto brake right. Where they'll, if somebody is stopped in front of them, it'll try to, you know, stop the truck is what I heard. But also you have blind spot monitoring. Now, what other, what are some of the other ADAS technologies coming into the.

So you got forward facing cameras.

Okay.

And you got the lane deterrence like we talked about. You got the flip radar, adaptive cruise control in some cases.

Are those components more expensive than car ones or is it about the same?

I would say they're probably a little more expensive.

Yeah, yeah. Because it's.

And you know, we're starting to see airbags and freightliners in Volvos.

So wait, they don't have airbags in them? I didn't realize that.

Yeah, the new freight liners have airbags and the Volvos have airbags.

Yeah, I didn't realize that. I Figured every airbag on the road vehicle had airbags in it. But I guess too when you're getting hit with a. When you hit something with an 18 wheeler, it's probably not. It's probably happening down below. You're probably not getting that brunt like you do up front on a regular car. I guess where it hits maybe makes a difference in that.

Right. You know, and you get a lot more rollovers with trucks. So I know in the new models with Freightliners, they're putting in a side curtain airbag.

Mm.

It comes out right behind the driver's door.

So is that gonna total more trucks out, do you think?

I don't think so.

Yeah.

I mean, because you think about how much those trucks are worth.

Yeah, yeah. Cause you can practically rebuild the thing and it still won't total.

Right. They've gotten Immi makes 95% of the seat belts in Class 8 trucks. They also have a seat that locks down whenever the truck is going to roll over to keep the driver from hitting his head on the ceiling and has an airbag in the side of the seat that deploys it on. Hit his head on the glass.

Oh, wow.

And you know the downside to this is if you're working on this truck and you're R and I in the seat for some reason and you don't disconnect the power to it, that seat is going to deploy and latch down in the bottom and you better not have your fingers in the way because you're going to be missing some digits.

And with no OEM procedures, how do you know what the process is right now? Does the equipment, does it come with its own OEM procedures? Like do the seats themselves come with something so you at least know that much or is that hidden too?

Yeah. So immi, they can get all that information for free from their website.

Okay, but do these guys know how to do that? They know to check the procedures for that stuff? No.

Yeah. Even the ADAS stuff is free from Bendix. You can go on their website, get all the position statements, what's included, what's not included. It's all on there but nobody bothers to go and see.

Yeah. You think that's going to be probably the biggest challenge in the truck side is just getting this to become a habit for people. Yeah.

Thanks.

Yeah. Which is why we want to try to include it in our stuff so that it's just there. But if even then, I mean, will we get them to look at it? That's yet to be determined. I guess you know, but it'll at least call it out that, that you have these processes that you need to consider and put in the estimate.

Yeah. Because, you know, you think about a lot of these shops that are doing heavy duty trucks are doing the high rise vans, whether it's Ford, gm, whether it. Or the Sprinters, and nobody's pulling up those OEM procedures of where you can supply stuff in how many spot welds you need. Is it boron steel? Is it high strength steel? They're not looking at any of that and giving it to the technician.

Yeah, that's scary. That is scary because, you know, we all know how important that stuff is. So, so they, they could be welding things that shouldn't be welded and just kind of making it up how they, they see fit. Yeah, right. And those vehicles all do have ADAs on them too.

Yeah. And that stuff is available through the OEM websites.

Yeah. And they're not checking that stuff at all. Even on calibration, on, on adas. Calibrations.

No. I've actually had somebody in my class say, oh, we just bolted on, sent it down the road. No, no you don't.

God, that is terrifying.

That have to be done. Dynamic and static calibrations have to be done on adas.

Yeah, that is terrifying because those vehicles are constantly being in and out of body shops. You know, like the sprinter vans and stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

I had a client that was an RV repair specialist and he was looking for ways to expand the business and I told him that he should get into Sprinters. And so we created this whole sprinter website for him. And years later that's his main bread and butter now is just the sprinter vans. They outpaced the growth on those, outpaced his growth on his RV repair shop. And he had three locations. So. Yeah, that was probably one of the best tips I ever gave to a shop because it radically changed his business. And I was just suggesting, hey, here's an area that you should consider and they're in Dallas. And that's what he does the most now is sprinter vans. So at the time he had a high roof booth because he had rv. You know, nobody had high, high roof booths that couldn't paint stuff. And so he, he was able to kind of get in early and become, you know, the, the go to place for a sprinter van. So, you know, but, and I know they are pulling procedures because he came from the automotive world. So I know those vehicles are getting, you know, getting repaired properly. So that's at least, that's, that's good to know. So back to estimating. You know, one of the, you know, kind of the mission of this show is to kind of educate shop owners about, you know, kind of, like, what works and what doesn't work. So what do you think are some of the biggest challenges, like, for an estimator, if they wanted to. If you owned a shop and you wanted to get better at estimating, like, where do you start with that? What are some of the things that you need to kind of start doing it? And then how do you get your estimators up to speed?

Yeah. So, you know, a lot of times those trucks will come in and you have no idea what was on them. Did it have fog lights? Did it not have fog lights? So getting a breakdown from the dealer to say, hey, what came on this truck? Because you need to put it on the estimate. You know, I think one of the biggest mistakes I see a lot of estimators make is there will. They'll go take pictures of the damaged side, but they don't take pictures of the undamaged side for them to go back and look at what is. What is supposed to be there.

Mm. So they're having a guess then.

Yeah.

And then that's another call. And how long does it take to get that information from the dealer?

Yeah, you know, another side is getting them to use the pages. There's a lot of good information in those P pages. What's included, what's not included.

So how did you get your estimators? Like, what was your process to get those guys estimating like you did, or did you just do all the estimating?

No, no, I ended up having some estimators. But, you know, we went through a whole training process of, you know, first trying to get them used to what is the truck, what is the model of the truck, what pictures do I need? What information do I need from the truck? You know, because there's, you know, you get a box truck, you may need the cab information, the box information, and the lift gig information, and then taking good photos. That. That is big. You know, one of the things I tell everybody now is do a video as you walk around the truck and speak to the camera and say what the damage is and what you're thinking at the time, so you can go back and watch the video again. That really helps a lot.

Yeah. What other tips do you have for estimating? I know, because I think I was in one of your estimating classes, and you'd mentioned just being able. So one of the things that Happens with commercial trucks that people don't think about too, is that people live in them. So there's personal belongings in there. And then taking the vehicle, when you do roll the truck out of the shop, you know, tarping it and stuff like that. Like, it seems to me like the commercial truck world doesn't even think to charge for. Like. Like trying to. Trying to determine what's the cost of doing business. Seems like that might be a challenge to realize that you can charge for that. So what are some other pitfalls that you see estimators not charge for?

Well, I think when I tell these folks, I tell them, I said, start with the front. Most estimating softwares start from the front and work to the back, and they go from outside to inside. So stay with that one section until you have everything, and then move to the next section and the next section and the next section. Because my analogy of that is if you opened up all the drawers on a toolbox, what would happen? It fall over.

Yeah.

So let's stay with one section until we're completely done, and then let's move to the next section. And as you go through the estimating software, if you go take that route, then as you go through, you'll say, you know, I didn't even realize that this had a separate bracket. Now I can add it to the estimate.

So. So front to back, one thing at a time. So you see a lot of estimators that are just kind of just grabbing stuff. Is that how they normally do it?

Jump all over the place?

I wonder why that is.

I think it's inexperience, not knowing what they're doing. I know with some softwares you can just kind of jump around in there. Well, you can with any of them. A lot of them will align it for you in the category it's supposed to be, and then there's some that will not. So you would go from the front bumper, through the front seat, back to the radiator, to the rear, back to the rear mud flap, back to the door. That's really hard to follow.

And it's just whatever comes through their mind. Like, oh, I think it needs. I know it needs this, I know it needs that. They just kind of start hitting the things that they know it needs and then work their way into what it might also need.

Right? Yeah. You know what? I can tell everybody, too, when. When you're looking at hoods and you're going to repair the hoods, break the repair into two repairs, an outside versus an inside. Because I Had so much pushback from everybody, Whether it was fleet or whether it was insurance companies, you know. Well, how do you get eight hours out of that? Well, I got five to fix the outside, and I'm gonna need three to fix the inside. But I'm also gonna need to paint the inside, Because I can't leave that raw SMC material for the weather. I've got to put something over it.

And is that stuff in P pages or that just comes from experience?

Yeah, I just. We just started doing that whenever it was getting so much pushback from these insurance companies. I don't see eight hours. We'll flip the hood over, and you'll see the other the rest of the hour. So I just break it down to repairing the fender, and then I put right underneath it, Repair the inner structure, fender left, and then put the time and some paint time on it.

So that's another thing that's kind of, I think, kind of unique to a commercial truck is that there's a lot of repair instead of replace. And so that when it's repair versus replace, there's is. Is there a lot of book time about the time to repair, or is it. Is it kind of like a judgment call?

Like how long It's a judgment call.

Yeah. So is that. I would imagine that's probably where a lot of the pushback comes back from.

Yeah. And I think the other place that you see a lot of pushback is shop supplies. I see this a lot, and it comes up a lot in conversation. Um, so I tell everybody, try to line item as much as they possibly can. All your glues, your caulkings, if you're doing box trucks, line item, all your rivets, maybe you create kits. It says a corner cap kit, a nose radius kit, a corner radius kit, so that you don't get so much pushback. And you spend so much time on the phone with these people saying, hey, I'm not paying 5, $600 for shop supplies. Lower your shop supplies in line item. And one of the bigger benefits for that is you can job cost against it, for one. And you could pull those parts and take to the technician so they're not walking up and down the shop. Coming to get rivets all the time.

Yeah. Okay. So as far as estimating. So these are some of the things that you see estimators miss all the time. What are some of the things that you've tried on estimates that just don't work? You know, like, just. Well, like you mentioned, like, giant shop supply line Items. But is there anything else like that that just doesn't work if you do it this way and you need to do it a different way?

Well, the shop supplies for sure is one.

Yeah.

You know, trying to elevate your paint materials to cover. You're gonna need some kind of proof, you know, because some of it, like I said before, some of these trucks are coming with Mike and they're coming with tricotes, they're coming with glass in them. So, you know, if you just put a dollar amount out there without documentation, they're not going to pay it. They're going to push back. You know, we. There's. I tell everybody, put line notes, explain your repair to the person that's going to be looking at the estimate.

Okay. Trying to see what other questions I have here to go over. So this is one that I like to talk about with shop owners. On the auto body side, it seems like there was life before COVID life after Covid. Like Covid just fundamentally changed the collision repair business. On the auto side, did it have any effects on the truck side? Like, is there a before and after period where things are just so different now?

I think it did. I know some of the fleets reduced the size of their fleets, pulled off some of the units because people weren't working. Even though just about everything we buy or touch is on a truck at some point. Some of these big companies have told me they have lowered the amount of trucks and trailers that they have prior

to Covid just because they realized they had too much capacity. Maybe force them to get tighter.

Well, you think about, say, somebody like a Penske, they got all those box trucks. Most people get those box trucks to move, so people aren't moving as much. Yeah, the economy and in the interest rate. The interest rate is high and the economy is not where it should be. So people aren't moving as much and they're not buying the renting those trucks. So, you know, they eliminate some of those trucks.

So for the auto body side too, and you know, one of the biggest changes is that the used to have adjusters that came out to your shop all the time and negotiated repairs. But then it turned to a desk jockey guy, and now it's turning into just AI, where it just goes through a machine and it comes out an answer like some. I heard some guys tell me they'll submit a estimate and then within minutes later, they're getting the rejections already. So, like, that's a big change on that. On that side, Is there any, anything like that like, you know, besides the shrinking amount of trucks to fix, is there anything that else that like, kind of maybe altered the, the way the, the truck world is before and after Covid?

I think a lot of them, if, if they didn't downsize their fleet, they set the trucks to a side. So if they got one that's wrecked, they just grab another truck.

Okay.

And they'll just wait until, you know, things get better and then they'll fix it.

Okay. So there's, there's lots sitting out there with. To be repaired trucks.

Yeah, so.

So that, that obviously has effects on the commercial truck world. And I know some of the guys are kind of, you know, like, like a lot of auto body shops right now, they're kind of struggling with cash flow. I know, like, that's another area that you're specializing is, you know, getting guys to understand whip adjustment and, and things like that. What are some of the, like, I've seen shops where they have like, Ron Kun, which I'm sure you probably helped develop it with the dashboard, where it has, you know, it's like tracking, I guess, paint materials and, and your gross profit and stuff like that. What are some lessons that you have for a shop owner that might be listening here as far as, like, what, what kinds of things to track to make sure that they. Because if you, if you come to the realization that there's a shrinking pool of vehicles to fix, then you need to get tighter on in other areas. Like, close ratio is one. You know, if you got less trucks, if you're writing less estimates, you need to, you need to win more of those jobs. So what, are there other areas that, that truck shop owners should be aware of or even auto body shop owners should be watching maybe a little bit tighter now that maybe they weren't in the past?

Yeah, I think a lot of people have gotten away from building rapport with these fleets. You know, that's, those guys are controlling the majority of it. So you still got to build rapport with, with the people that you're dealing with. You got to educate them, you know, explain to them why am I replacing this. Have, have some sessions on the seat belts, for example. Now this is why we're replacing the seat belts. If this person gets involved in an accident and severely gets damaged and nobody put a seat belt in it, who you think they're coming after? Yeah, coming after your companies from now.

So, so how do you do that then? What's your tactic for reaching out to these, your fleet managers to educate them?

Yeah, over lunch Maybe you have a, a lunch and learn and, and go through these things with these folks.

How often, how often do you recommend they do that?

You know, maybe you don't do it, do it every other month, once a month and have some lunch and learns to, to go over and educate those folks on some of the adas stuff, which some of them will probably know, but they probably don't know about the calibration side of it for the collision or the seat belts or the airbags. Why am I replacing a clock spring?

Yeah, real quick on the calibrations too. Are the truck shops that are dealing with calibrations, are they doing it? Well, you said they're not even doing it, but those that are doing calibrations, are they doing that in house or is that. Because I would imagine you can't just send it down to your, to the same place that a, like an off site calibrations company is for like a, you know, that the auto body guys are using. Is it harder to calibrate?

I think no, it's not that hard to calibrate. They give you through Bendix and those folks all have, and they're all pretty much the same calibration. You know, you gotta do the same for the static calibration and then take it out on the road to do a dynamic calibration. And it, once you get through the dynamic side of it, it kind of calibrates itself.

Okay, so self calibration. Yeah, yeah. Because on the autobio side you got to have different targets for different manufacturers. You got to have different space, you got to have, you know, full of fuel, you got to put weight in the seats, you got to do all that kind of stuff. You don't have to do that so much with the truck side.

Well, you got to make sure that it's completely aired up. You know, you got to make sure the tires are properly inflated to the, you know, there's a ton of stuff on there that you got to do prior to the static calibration.

Okay.

But one thing I just thought about with trying to, you know, increase your, your volume of work is I think shops do a really poor job of back selling.

What does that mean? What do you mean by that?

So I don't think they do a good job of tooting your own horn. You know, some of the systems out there will allow you to send them cycle time reports. You know, everybody's trying to get that business that you, that you have. But can they turn the truck as fast as you can do, can they give You a five day cycle time.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's a good point. You know, where on the personal automotive side, cycle time's important, you know, and it's a KPI if you're a DRP shop. But it's probably the most important thing on a commercial truck shop because that vehicle needs to be back out on the road. So that is like a huge selling feature. More so than OEM correctness and things like that, I would imagine.

Yeah. Because if it's not rolling, it's not making money. They're, you know, they're revenue generators.

Yeah. So. So you recommend pulling these reports and then creating some kind of like a email blast to your existing fleet managers.

Right?

That's a good idea. Yeah. Did you ever do that at your shop?

Like, yeah, they, they, they got them once a month. You know what other bad they got?

What other stuff did you do? Like would you just send that or is there any other stuff that you would send to the fleet managers?

You know, we would, we would make sure they got all the. Because we pre camp pre scanned and post scanned everything. So we give them all the scan reports, any alignment sheets. Because I mean, you think about it, what else are you going to back sell? It's got to be measurable. You got to be able to measure what your back selling to them.

So, so you'd send that every month just to kind of keep your name fresh and, and to realize that you're tracking this stuff so they can feel good about using you all the time.

Right.

Did you ever get customers that just, I guess, you know, they get into an accident, they're near your shop and, and you know, it's just, they look and see what's the, the closest truck repair shop or does it not work that way?

I think in some cases the independent truckers will. But you know, now that the Penske's and the riders and some of these companies like that are doing leases, I think they're all going more and more toward the lease. Because you think about it, in the lease you get a new truck, they're going to maintain it for you, part of the lease. But there are some, some independent truckers still out there.

So, so that, so it's a Penske truck, it gets into an accident. There's a local truck shop or two right where the accident happens. But the nearest Penske dealer is maybe three hours away. It's going to go to that, to that shop and bypass the local shop. Is that what, what you're saying?

So what they'll do is they will ask you to come out and write, or they'll. They'll take pictures and send it to the closest Penske collision center, and they can say, we're full. We can't take it. One of your local guys repair it.

So then maybe it would make sense to keep top of mind with those guys, then, for any overflow work. Yeah, right. That's a. That's a good tip. Well, Dean, I. I think that covers all my questions. Oh, there's one last question, you know, that I always ask, is who should I have on the show next? I know you have a couple names in mind that I need to reach out to, but who should I have on the show next?

On the truck side, I think. Well, John Spoto would be a good one.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

You know, now he's working with I car, but, you know, John has worked with ICAR for a long time. He worked for Premier Truck Group, and he's really, really big on OEM repair procedures.

Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll reach out to John. Yeah, that's a good suggestion.

Yeah.

Okay.

I think people get a lot out of John.

Yeah. Okay, I'll do that. That's a great suggestion. All right, Dean. Well, that kind of wraps up all my questions that I have. I want to thank you for joining me on my show here, and, you know, always appreciate it, you know, all your help and everything that you're doing with us here. So thanks a lot.

All right. Thanks a lot. Yeah, I enjoyed it.

All.