E16 - This is the episode EVERYONE should listen to.

Hi, this is Janae Luciani Senna, and you are listening to Visible Panty Lines podcast, and these are inspiring stories of overcoming adversity, encouragement, and so far, I have really been enjoying chatting with every single one of our guests, and I think you guys have been, too, because we hit number 77 on one of the podcast charts.

Last month. So that was really cool and exciting, especially considering this really was a pet project for me, just an expansion with my TV work and my writing and everything else I do in media and journalism. So I am loving that you guys are loving it. So thanks for tuning in. Thanks for the support, and happy New Year. So my guest this week is perfect, really, for around the new Year, because everything that she does is really about inspiring people to make change and to have better habits and to create better boundaries and have more fulfilling relationships and all kinds of really, really good stuff. So I have Natalie Liu today with me, and I'm so excited. I've written about her books before. She has a new book out, and the book is really timely, I feel like, in, you know, as far as resolutions go. And in the new year, it's her fifth book. It's the Joy of Saying no. It just came out this month in January, and I actually just wrote an article where I talked about, you know, forget the resolutions of, like, trying to lose weight and trying to work out more, because the resolutions really should be things like learning to say no more and not feeling guilty about it. And so welcome, Natalie.

Thank you for having me, Janae.

So I loved, you know, we were just talking before we started recording, and I loved what you said. Tell me what you said again about, you know, not saying no. I mean, saying no. But not for the new year.

Yeah, absolutely. This time of year, there's this New year, New year chatter and this. This pressure to make some big transformation. And actually, I believe it's New Year new. No, we need to figure out what it is that we need to say no to so that we can then say yes to more of the things that reflect who we really are. And I think that we are to sign on to, as you said, you know, these. These resolutions where I got to lose weight and I've got to do this. What we really need to get to is the meat of what matters in our life. And if we're saying yes to the wrong things, we're not getting to say yes to the right things or the things that we say yes to that we really don't need to or actually even shouldn't be. Are Clouding the good things in our lives. So I think that when we can get absolutely clear or certainly more clear on what we need to say no to, we can have a better 20, 23 and beyond.

I agree with that completely. So what is kind of a way that people can do that? How can people say yes to the right things and, you know, no to the wrong things? Is it more about like listening to your gut or what are, you know, what's the secret?

Well, it's interesting, of course, listening to our gut is part of it. The problem is, is that because we as a society have been socialized and conditioned to be afraid of and ashamed of saying no, we are disconnected from.

Especially as women, right? Especially as women.

Yeah, absolutely. And so if we've picked up shameful messages about saying no, then we've become disconnected from our bodies. So we can't feel and sense our boundaries and needs as that and values as well as we need to. And so, great. If we have an awareness of our feelings, then our feelings can be a great big clue that we need to say no to something. Because the people pleaser feelings, as I call them, are, you know, anxiety, resentment, guilt, frustration, overwhelm, feeling overloaded, feeling trapped, powerless, helpless, low. These are all indications that we are saying yes to things that for all intents and purposes might appear to be good things, but they are for the wrong reasons. So we're saying yes for the wrong reasons or we're just completely going against ourselves. And so if we can notice where these feelings are showing up, then this gives us clues as to where our body is trying to let us know that we need to say no or that we certainly need to say yes to, to less than what we've already agreed to. Another big clue in this as well is the chatter in our head. So even if we're not necessarily aware of the feelings, we can certainly pick up on. You know, like when somebody asks you to do something that you don't actually want to do, but you haven't necessarily acknowledged that you don't want to do it, but in you outwardly, you're going, yeah, sure, I can do that. Inwardly you are like, I can't believe this. Beep, beep, beep. Let's turn around and ask me to do this. Don't they realize how much I've got going on?

Yeah, the audacity of the dying a.

Little on the inside.

Totally. Like dying a little, dialing, dying a little bit on the inside. Or we're cussing them out, or you're Mentally going, how the hell am I going to get out of this? So we're already trying to shift some stuff around or we're thinking, okay, well, I've agreed to this, so now I've got to drop this other thing. Hold on a second here. This kind of thinking, this kind of chatter, this kind of mentality tells us that this is a sign that we need to say no or we need to be more honest and upfront about what we are thinking in that moment. And now it might be that I think a lot of people don't really consider themselves before they say yes. And so they don't think about their bandwidth, they don't think about their schedule, they don't think about, do I actually want to. Do I need to do this thing? Right, Right. Do you really want to? Absolutely, yeah. So when you notice either the feelings or the chatter, then these are clues as to, ooh, this is where it looks like I might need to say no here. Because I think that we are so entrenched in this idea of being a yes person and pleasing others as we like to think that we are disconnected from that sort of lack of congruency between what we're presenting on the outside and what we're saying and what we're actually feeling and thinking on the inside. Something I mentioned, you know, I talk about in the Joy of saying no is about how what a big shift for me happened when I realized that whether it was like, during it or afterwards, that when I people please, it's code for I am or I was anxious about something. So the me people pleasing in that moment is a manifestation of anxiety. It's our way of relieving tension. And we experience tension around people's requests and expectations, and we respond to that by trying to get rid of it by saying yes. And so when I acknowledged, oh, this isn't about me wanting to do it, this is about anxiety. I don't want to do things from a place of anxiety because of course, when we do that, it just creates more anxiety. And so then I was able to go, oh, so even if I didn't know until afterwards, if I didn't fully register it until then, I was able to go, oh, wow, I was anxious about something. Okay, let's be curious here. What might I have been anxious about? Because we're often anxious that we're not going to be liked, that we're going to miss out on an opportunity, that somebody's going to get to be better than us, that we're not going to be in control or we're going to have too much control or whatever it is, we need to get to the truth of where that anxiety is showing up. And so it is the feelings and it is the thoughts. And actually in amongst that, and this is one of the steps that I talk about in the book, it's distinguishing between desire and obligation because there's a big fat difference between the two. We know what it feels like when we want to do something. And if we don't know what it feels like when we want to do something, well, then that's some big ass information there, that something is very wrong, that we have no idea what it feels like when we actually want to do something. And in life, we all have obligations. Yeah, but we don't have anywhere near as many obligations as we make out.

No, it's so true. Like, and I for one can tell you I am a chronic people pleaser. And I am very aware of it, like, as an alcoholic might be when they're in an AA meeting and they say, hi, I'm Janae, I'm a chronic people pleaser. Like, here I am now trying to take steps to reform that. And I think what's interesting is, like, people like myself, when you tend to be attracted to or meet, like, I, I can honestly say my husband, my, A lot of my friends are the opposite of that. Where they, like my husband, for example, doesn't. It's not that he doesn't take other people's feelings into consideration because he definitely cares about other people and their feelings, but he doesn't put it above his own. And, and he's a lot more blunt and straightforward than I am. And so I think, like, what you are wanting to change in yourself, you are attracted to, in other people in that. And I have some close friends who are like that too. And I really respect that. It's like they occasionally, yes, my feelings do get hurt because I am like a sensitive person as well, which I think most people pleasers are. So I think, you know, yes, I'm not going to say it. Never. Their bluntness never hurts, doesn't hurt my feelings. But more than not, I respect that they are able to just say, no, I don't want to do that, or, no, this is how I feel. And it's kind of inspired me in a way to be more, you know, I don't know if it's being in my mid-40s too, but it's like being more just sort of honest and authentic and upfront and like, yes, it may sting in the beginning for the receiving party. But, you know, like, I use the example in the article I wrote yesterday for hello giggles. But, you know, I said if, you know, single friend Susan calls you up and wants to, you know, you to be her wing woman for a girl's night out, and you're like, exhausted from a week of, you know, caring for kids and taking care of your house and working, you know, instead of just saying yes to appease Susan, say, say no Susan, I would honestly, I'm tired and I would rather, you know, snuggle up with my cat and watch Netflix. And if Susan doesn't respect that or understand that, then Susan isn't really your friend. So I really wholeheartedly believe that, you know, and that's kind of to your point about, you know, just being, I guess, authentic to putting yourself first. But it's not in a selfish way. Right? Like, we're not doing it selfishly. We're just being authentic to ourselves a hundred percent.

And look, I'm married to. Basically, it sounds like we have a very, very similar husband. And one of the things, you know, I've observed in him, you know, is the similar thing as you, which is that when I am aware of what appears to be somebody else's need or want, it's like my brain and my nervous system goes and immediately does a calculation.

Yes, totally.

Could this inconvenience them? What do I need to do here? Like, the default setting is to, oh, respond to that. What I find fascinating about my husband, just like yours, he is loving, he cares about others. He can, of course, he can be sensitive to others, but he does not sacrifice himself.

Yes.

Now, of course, look, we're talking about men here, so of course, men.

It's a little easier for women.

Yeah, women, we, we are all, both men. And all of us, all of this is people. And my men, women, just people. All of us as humans, we are born, raised in a society that has been going on for so long based on patriarchy, you know, sexism. We have to take that into account. So they, they have had messages about people pleasing like we have. However, something I mention in the book is that, yeah, we're all raised in a society that is communicating messages about people pleasing, but women have far less margin to be displeasing than men. And when men receive messages about what it is to be pleasing, it is to facilitate them accessing more power and it is to facilitate them advancing themselves. Whereas when women typically have been receiving this socialization and conditional messaging around people pleasing, then it is about limiting our power. There are still parts of this world, I mean really all parts of the world limits a level of women's agency. But there are some, I mean, where women have barely any margin to do anything. So part of why they behave in that way is because of that. But I also think about, look, I have other friends, both men and women, who they also are like, yes, I can do this. No, I can't do this. They don't overextend themselves. On occasions when they do, they learn from it. But it's not like a, it's not like a habitual. Exactly. Themselves.

Right.

Whereas it's not a default to disregard themselves.

Right. And with some of us, like the two of us, it's, you know, I think it becomes a habitual thing and I think you can get all psychological and trace it back to your childhood. Sometimes it's just your nature. I think, like for me it's a little bit of both. Like I had a childhood where I felt like I, you know, my dad had divorced my mom and I was little, I was young, I was nine. And you know, blamed myself really and felt like it was my fault and all these other confusing things. And I think that just, just led me to a teenage, teenagehood and adulthood of trying to be accepted and please people and you know, all kinds of stuff like that. So I think we can all look at what the root cause of it is and then maybe try to kind of like fix it with little small changes. And I feel like just starting out with a small step of just being like, I don't want. It could be like the littlest thing, but just no, I don't want to do that. And just saying no. And not the best part too is not feeling like you need to come up with an excuse or a reason. Like not everybody needs a reason. Just say, I'm sorry, I can't. Thanks for the invite. I'm sorry, I can't. You know, you don't owe them really. You don't owe anybody anything. Anything. And I think like that's the biggest, I guess takeaway is like, yeah, you don't owe anybody anything. Just you can say no. And that's okay.

Yeah, I think that, you know something, you know, a couple of things I talk about in the book, about how most people don't want a big ass story from you when you turn around and say no. They don't need to hear about how your cat stuck up a tree, you don't have any clean laundry, the carpet you've Got all these things in the calendar that day. Then they're kind of looking at you like, right, are you a hot mess?

Are you a hot mess? Do you not have it all together? Right. Yeah.

And sometimes, depending on what we say, sometimes they feel like guilty and ashamed and it brings up kind of weird feelings in them because of we're like having to almost justify. And we're like, oh, my God, you know, I'm just like so laid up at the moment. And, you know, I'd love to, but I've got. And I'm just looking at us going, okay, and. And I say to people, start lights. You know, in the book I talk about hard nose versus soft nose. And a lot of the time we associate a clear, simple no, such as, okay, there can be the basic no as in no, but they can be, no, I can't. No, I don't have the capacity. I don't want to, whatever it is. And we see that as a bad thing because we have been taught that it is polite to give a big ass story. But actually what can happen is that we engage in these soft, fluffier nos, which have a time and a place where. And when I say a soft no, that's instead of it being one sentence where it's clear, direct, straight to the point, but nonetheless respectful. With a soft no, you, you, you, you buffer it a little bit where you've got an extra sentence or two. Some people, and I say this in the book, some people's nose are so soft that they're flaccid because they have soft so much detail in there. And sometimes they've been talking for several minutes and then the person's going, so are they saying yes or are they saying no? Because it's. The story's been going on for so long. And of course, if you're talking to the wrong kind of person. Yeah. Who's looking to exploit you, they see this as an opportunity to basically get you to back down into doing what they want you to do.

Yes, totally sign of weakness.

But also I think that we have to. You know, I have this resource that I created that I'm planning to, I think include with the resources of the book when it comes out. And I came up with, let's just say I think it's about 400, probably close to 450 different scripts for saying no in a variety of different situations. And I think it's maybe once, twice at a push. The word sorry is used because I discourage people from saying sorry when they're saying no, because we have these, you know, these very burdensome associations around sorry. Not that sorry is wrong, but why are we saying sorry for saying no? Oh, I'm so sorry. Like I'm doing something bad. I have something to be guilty about. It's like, no. And also, look, I get it sometimes we, we want to be, we want to appear like we're a service and we want to help. Right. So then we're going, well, I can't do this, but maybe I could do that. That's appropriate. When that is appropriate. But sometimes we're doing that because it's like, well, I feel guilty about saying no. So let me offer you something else. And actually we don't need to. And so we don't have to keep justifying ourselves about saying no. We are allowed to say no simply just because. And it doesn't have to be some big ass reason for saying no. We can say no simply because we don't want to say yes. That's as good a reason to say no as any other. But it's like we have to have a 911 emergency, leg hanging off kind.

Of situation just to be able to say no.

Yeah.

I've got to be in dire straits.

In order to say no. What is that saying about us? That that's what we think a situation requires before we're allowed to say no. I have got to be victimized. I've got to be in deep pain. I've got to be in dire straits. It has got to be nothing short of a critical emergency.

Yeah.

Before I'm going to turn around and say no. That's messed up.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's funny because I was doing a little bit of research on the saying no thing and it was like, like you said, there's, there were like literally advice articles on. Here are some like scripts or some like standard things you can say when you want to say no. And it was like they all said sorry and it was like some variation of some, you know, really sugar coated kind of excuse. And I was like, why can't you just say no? Like, why can't you just say I don't want to do that. Like, no offense, you know, but it's like, no offense to you, but you know, in a better way because that seems to offend people to that statement. So it's like, it really is all about, I feel like people are constantly like, oh, I don't want to offend the other person. So it's like, yes, you want to be empathetic. And you don't want to go around offending people by any means. But why is. It's kind of like saying it's me, not you. You know what I mean? Like, it's not that I don't want to go do that with you, it's that I don't want to. Right. Yeah. So I think that's like what people need to wrap their heads around. And that's something. Another thing that my husband has been really great about kind of helping me with, it's like he's like, you take everything so personally and you always think they're directing it at you and you always think they're talking to you or you always think they're talking about you. And like 90% of the time it's them, not you.

Yeah.

So it's like, why are we, you know, and so it's the same thing when it's us, like, feeling like we're talking to someone else to address something. And it's like we know the other person is automatically going to think it's them and not you. So I think. Right. Like collaboratively as a society, if we can all just be like, listen, we're all just about ourselves in some in a good way, you know, not you. It's not you, it's me.

I, I mean, I love this. And I, you know, something that we have to be honest about and recognize. You know, look, it's easy for us to sit here and be like, oh, people pleasing is such an altruistic thing. It's such a virtuous thing. It's a sign of what a good person I am. Look, yes, there, our good qualities are tied up in there. But people pleasing is us misappropriating our good qualities. It is also the equivalent of us creating a debt and then asking other people to pay it off. Because people pleasing always contains this hidden agenda. What do I get to avoid, like, conflict, criticism, rejection, stress. And of course we feel annoyed when we still experience those things. Or what am I going to get out of this? Maybe I'm going to get, like, attention, affection, approval, you know, be seen in a certain way. But when people, you know, I've spoken to so many people pleasers over the years and they are worried about hurt and feelings causing offense. And they often see themselves as being people who, like, don't do bad things. Like, I'm well intentioned, I don't cross boundaries. It is impossible to say that you have an, you know, that you feel some level of discomfort about saying no, that you are afraid of hurt feelings, that you're afraid of causing offense and not also have a problem with other people's boundaries, that it's impossible. So you can't say, oh, I know I struggle with like, you know, creating healthy boundaries, but I totally respect other people's boundaries. No, no, no. If you are worried that you being honest and authentic is going to cause a problem and it's going to cause offense, that's because when people are honest and authentic with you, even if it's not what you want to hear, you get offended. True. Talk about. Yeah. When you talk about, oh, I'm afraid of hurt and feelings, you're afraid of hurting your own feelings.

True.

Don't get me wrong.

Yeah.

There's an element in there of like, oh my gosh, this person is going to take it really badly. But the thing about having healthy boundaries is we as a society have a mentality that it's like, oh, oh, this person can handle boundaries, this person can handle. No, but that person can't. Oh, I know something about what's gone on with that person. They've had this problem, that problem. So I better tiptoe carefully there and not have boundaries with them because what if they. This. First of all, that's bad. Boundaries, boundaries has nothing to do with whether we think the other person can or cannot handle it. We don't need to psychoanalyze somebody else to decide whether or not we can have a boundary because our biases are going to kick in, but also we are going to come up with all sorts of weird ass reasons for why we are or we're not going to have a boundary with people.

Yeah.

So we don't need to be like, oh, well, this person can handle it because we are getting up in other people's business where we don't need to and we wouldn't like people to do that with us. And it's funny, I was watching, honestly, like, I am not at all into the royals. You know, I grew up in Dublin and Ireland, so nobody was really, you know, into the world. It's like Princess died. But I watched the Harry and Meghan documentary on Netflix. As I said, I'm not into these two.

Me either. And that's the unpopular opinion. Yeah. Obsessed with them. Yeah.

And but the thing is, I had total respect for them after watching that interview. Because you know what this documentary shows society's fundamental problem with no. It's about who is allowed to say no and who's not allowed to say no. And it's about status if you are of a certain status, you get to say no. But if you are, for instance, a brown woman and you come into the royal family, well, how dare you have the audacity to turn around and say no. You should be grateful that we even let you through the front door. So actually, you should make sure that you basically abide by everything we say and you comply. And this the reason why everybody is up in arms. Well, not everybody, but certain people are up in arms. About what these two have done is that it flies in the face of what we have all been told about being compliant and about who gets to say yes and who gets to say no. And it's all about, I have the power over you to say yes, but you don't have the power to turn around and say no back to me. And if you think about this, even with dating and what we might term as heteronormative relationships, when you think about the whole way that dating and relationships can be, sometimes we have had women in these heteronormative relationships where the man gets to say, I'm not interested in commitments. I'm not interested in a relationship. I just want to, like, sleep with you. I want to keep it light, easy, breezy. Let's just go with the flow. But if the woman turns around and says, I'm not interested in you, I'm not attracted to you, I don't want to be with you, or I don't want actually to have a relationship with you, all of a sudden it becomes there's a problem with her saying no about that because he gets to say yes. Society has said men get to decide when commitment gets to happen and who gets the prize of it. And. Right. And women. Yeah, yeah. The engagement, the ring, the baby, the proposal men get, men get to decide. And women are supposed to be really flipping happy that they got picked out and somebody turn around and suggest. And when you turn around and say no to. To certain men who think that they are the ones who are supposed to say yes, and you're supposed to go along and agree with it, and you turn around and say no, that's when you can find yourself in some pretty unpleasant situations.

So true.

Because it flies in the face of what society has said to them. Society has said, I get to take, and you are supposed to give, and you're supposed to be grateful that I have said yes to you.

Yeah.

You don't have a choice in this.

Yeah.

So I think that no matter how whatever interest you do or don't have in the Royals. If you watch the Harry and Meghan documentary, you go, wow, as a society, we have really got a problem with when people don't toe the line with when people don't comply. And we are getting our knickers in a twist and being like, oh, my gosh, on a travel. Because it flies in the face of what we have internalized and what. And a lot of people are quite scared of what this shows. And what are we, like minions going off a cliff, just following the compliance?

It does feel that way sometimes. I love your whole analysis of the royal family and what's going on with Meghan and Harry. That is really interesting. I hadn't really thought about that. It's like we're conditioned to just be like, oh, like, how dare they leave their, you know, post and their duties and like, you know, without even really critically analyzing it. And I think that definitely lends itself to the fact that critical thinking just doesn't exist really anymore. Like, everybody just goes, you know, don't really think for yourself anymore in those terms. It's like, oh, but it's the royal family. Like, this is the way it's always been done, you know? So I think that that's really interesting. And I think we do tend to just blindly follow. I mean, God, that dredged up a whole lot of stuff during COVID I mean, right? Like, a perfect example of what's been going on. It's like, then you had everybody fighting. Well, you don't care about health of your elders. And, you know, if you didn't follow along and want to wear a mask or want to, you know, go get shot or whatever. And it's like, now we're all just, you know, one's calling another one a sheep, and this one. So that's so fascinating, really, and can be looked at in so many different, I guess, circumstances that are going on right now. For example.

I agree. I mean, I think that the pandemic under so many things that have gone on really since. I mean, look, we've always had things going on. But what was interesting is that because we were forced to be completely out of our atypical routine, we were forced to slow down. Many of us were not allowed to be anywhere, go anywhere, do anything. We were forced to confront ourselves in ways that we hadn't before. But on top of that, having this big man, we'll call it, on high from somewhere, say, hey, you can't leave your house. Or when you do leave your house, you're only allowed to do this. Or you have to do this or you have to do that. I think it tipped a lot of people over the edge because in the book I talk about how we have. Unless you're a child right now, you have been raised in the age of obedience. And so this has been going on for. This went on for several hundred years where the communication, the discipline, the control of kids was all about, you know, the interacting with children was about making them as excessively compliant as possible, making them obedient. And when we think about how children have been treated in the past, I mean, and still do get treated, you can see why as a society we have so much problems with saying no, with knowing our limits, with expressing our limits, with having boundaries, because we've had them stripped from us. You know, we're Both in our mid-40s, right when we were growing up. Feelings. What feelings? Nobody talked about feelings. Our parents owned our feelings. Yes, Boundaries. Nobody ever talked about that. Self care, values. Not even in the frame, you know, if you talked about, oh, I'm feeling such a way about whatever they go, get a grip on yourself. I was in the war.

War.

I didn't have this when I was growing up or whatever. And you know, oh, you're feeling sad, are you? I'll give you something to cry about. Or it was like, you want to keep talking like that? I'll kick you out of this car if you don't like how it is, get out of this house. You know what you can do. These are the ways that we used to be spoken to as standard when we were growing up. So it is no, no surprise that we have been raised to be compliant and obedient. That's why we get so triggered at work, because we're around somebody is an authority somewhere at work. And so then we get triggered by that because it pushes on our compliance buttons. And then the pandemic comes along and all of a sudden I think it tipped a lot of people over the edge where they suddenly went hard on a flipping second. What the hell am I doing?

Yeah.

And this meant that we might make good or bad decisions for ourselves, but it meant that all of a sudden some people slammed on their brakes and were like, homie, don't play that. I'm not doing another thing here.

Yeah, it's so fascinating. I feel like we could literally explore this forever and talk about, probably do a whole episode on this alone and really just break it down for people because it is so indicative of, like, what is going on and how people are feeling and how, I guess for Our generation, like Gen X, I think we just kind of went along, like, no problem, because like you said, we were raised that way and conditioned to be obedient and to do, you know, what people that know better than. So I think that we were really raised to believe, you know, to listen to and do what the people that know better than us, quote, unquote, you know, tell us to do. And raising our kids really with more free thinking is definitely a goal that, that I have. And you know, even I try to be very cognizant of the way that I even speak to them with a lot more of like, you know, why aren't you doing this? Or why can't you do more of this? You know, less of that and more of, you know, I guess kind of plotting their good qualities and, you know, telling them all their good qualities and in making sure that they know that. So. Because that was something I think that really was lacking for us, like you said. So I feel like we need to do another whole episode with you because we didn't even get into your background or any of that stuff that I wanted to talk about. So where can listeners find more information about you and buy your books?

So I have my own personal website, natalielu.com, which links out to my various bits of work. But actually the bulk of my work is@baggagereclaim.com where I have my podcast, the Baggage Reclaim Sessions, and my books are listed there as well. And I'm on Instagram, that's kind of my main social. I mean, I just about do social media on Instagram and I'm there asu.

N a T l u e. Yeah, so awesome. Then at least everybody can follow you and find you and you really have amazing, fascinating life advice and I think that everybody should buy your book. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today and I definitely would love to revisit with you in the future because I think we can like talk about so much more stuff.

Thank you so much for having me. And remember, New Year, new no.

Yes, New no. I'm going to like literally write that on a post it note and stick it in front of my desk. So.

Even with projects, it's like, you know, work stuff. It's like, even if you feel like you need the money or whatever it is, like sometimes it's not really feeding your soul, say no. I mean, just say no. Like, seriously, because that other thing, it might be blocking that other thing that is really meant to come along for you. So we'll leave everybody on that note. And you've been listening to Visible Panty Lines, the podcast. A new episode drops every Sunday at 8am and thanks again to Natalie Liu. And have a great week, everyone.