7 Mistakes Tradespeople Make When Growing Their Team w/ Alexa MacArthur

I think if you're bold enough and confident enough to go out on your own and give it a go, that's great. But taking on staff is a whole different— it's a whole different game. They've worked their way up from being on the tools and have become a manager of sorts, and they're just not very good at doing it. The way they speak to teams and the way that they, you know, don't motivate their staff because they've never had any real training or support around it. And it's a problem. I think one of the biggest mistakes that a lot of engineers probably make is that they just assume they just need to find enough work. As long as I've got enough work for this person, I can make money off them and everything else will be fine. But actually, you know, you have to think about a contract, you have to think about, you know, the health and safety aspects of things, and all these things take time.

This is the Fair Drogba Podcast. I'm your host, Tulloch Priest, and today I'm joined by Alexa. Hi. Alexa's been in the trades for over a decade now and working her way up being a director of a heating and plumbing company, to now working at Gas Engineer Software. In these roles, she's had lots of different experiences managing employees. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me again.

Alexa, of course, has been on the podcast before, and we're here talking about managing customer relationships. Today the episode is going to flip the coin, and it's going to be all about employees and being a good leader and getting the most out of your team. In a sentence or two, why should people care about this?

Leading a team in any industry is challenging, but I think in the trade industry, because generally engineers don't have any management training, when they get to a point of potentially needing staff, it's, it's completely new territory for them. Um, and you realize that it's that at that point that problems can really occur. Most will learn along the way, but I think others will just muddle through and make various mistakes.

Because you kind of get trained on the tools, the actual trade itself, but then as you employ your first person— Very different. Yeah, it's quite a— So what kind of things would you have when you first—

I think it's—

Or when, sorry to interrupt, when would you actually employ your first employee?

I think for an engineer, it would be, you know, you've made that step to, you know, become a sole trader, which is often a massive thing to do anyway. And not at any point would you think about things like having to, you know, worry about HR or health and safety, apart from for yourself, but worrying about other people all of a sudden. So, you know, it's a massive step to take anyone on, whether it's on the tools or whether it's to help you with the admin side of things. It changes the whole dynamic of what you're doing.

Plus you need to make sure there's enough work for them. Absolutely. Can you pay the salary?

Yeah, I think one of the biggest mistakes that a lot of engineers probably make is that they just assume they just need to find enough work. As long as I've got enough work for this person, I can make money off them and everything else will be fine. But actually, you know, you have to think about a contract, you have to think about, you know, the health and safety aspects of things and setting up their holiday and managing that side of it, which All these things take time.

Yeah, and it's a whole new set of skills as well.

It's a whole new set of skills. Yeah, I think for any company owner or company director, having staff and employing staff can be one of the biggest challenges that you have to face. But it also can bring great joy to your company and obviously bring you in more work. And small profit and all that sort of thing. So there's trying to look at the good as well as the bad.

I, I think there's just a huge learning curve. Like, if you haven't managed people before, there's a whole section of, you know, just, just dealing with the relationship, like how to manage the work. Yeah. And just making sure they've got the tools. And then you need to just really overcommunicate, like more than you actually expect, to provide clarity for the other person, just to kind of make sure that they know what they're doing. Because if there's a bit of uncertainty, they might not always tell you, but you might need to just kind of really enforce that. And then there's also personal growth as well. So you need to learn how to deal with conflict, be firm. But yeah, it's quite different set of skills from just the actual trade itself.

Yeah, very much so.

Is employing staff for everyone?

Definitely not. I think the reality is that if you're— I think if you're bold enough and confident enough to go out on your own and give it a go, that's great. But taking on staff is a whole different, it's a whole different game because you've got to think about paying people, not just looking after yourself, finding enough work. And also when you reach a certain level of staff, you have to think about having a health and safety policy, for example. Your insurances will start to change. Your overheads will change from having multiple vans. Maybe you'll need an office space rather than just maybe a lockup. So often the more you start to scale up, the profit margins will change. And, you know, you are open to potentially more risk. The more jobs you're doing, the more mistakes that could be made. And you have to take into consideration staff sickness. It could be anything that could cost you money. And the more you have, the more risk there is.

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If you— because there's a general assumption that, you know, to make more money, you just employ more people. And you were saying that when you get that second person, you might not actually, unless you're kind of careful, you might not actually be making more money.

No, and also it's, you know, it would be stupid for people to think that, you know, are they, is that person going to be as efficient as I am? You know, is that person going to create as much work that I can do in a day? Am I going to have to quote things differently? There's so much that comes into it because everyone works so differently, so you will have to, you know, get used to how that person is. Hopefully you may have worked with them previously, you know, maybe in a different company or something, but it's, you know, I think it's not for everyone because it can, you know, bring up so many new challenges.

Yeah, I think there's definitely a learning curve. You know, in the past we've had a partnership with a different person And yeah, that didn't end very well. And so if you are looking to bring somebody on board, definitely do it as an employee-employer relationship. Like if you have a good friend and you want to do a partnership, it's kind of like a marriage. You have to be really, really careful. Yeah. Because it might be fine now, but have some kind of agreement about, you know, if there was a disagreement, how do you resolve it? Yeah.. But, you know, from my personal experience, I would sort of lean towards, you know, just having a clean employer-employee relationship.

I think that's also something which can become, especially in the trade, because often, you know, people will work together, they'll be good friends, and if they then become their boss, it sort of muddies the water slightly. And it can, I think for a lot of people who have been sort soul traders, or working alongside people for another company in the past, if they then set up on their own and they become, you know, the boss, they have to change their mindset. They have to behave differently, and that might be quite a strange relationship to, or it might be quite a strange, you know, evolution on that friendship. So, it's tricky.

Yeah, one person's growing and the other one is not.

Yeah. Jealousy.

Yeah, there's the fact of— that kind of come into that.

Yeah, absolutely. And often people don't like success.

I think the other thing to be aware of is that if you are thinking about growing your business, um, your role will actually change. Like, in the beginning, you are hands-on, you're on the tools, and you just need to be clear that, you know, as you grow, you know, your role will be less on the tools and there'll be more admin, there'll be more HR, there'll be more— more— you'll need to spend more time on, like, growing yourself. So you need to have some personal growth in there, otherwise, you know, you are going to be like a lid on the business. And so you just need to decide what you want and go into it with a sort of open mind, you know, or, you know, with your eyes open that, you know, it might not be as profitable as you think, and there will be a learning curve which will cost you money. But for the right people, I think it's a good way forward.

Yeah, it's also, I think, being able to look at yourself and, you know, if you are an engineer, you will have been trained as an engineer. You haven't been trained as a people manager, you know, in that kind of aspect. So, you know, if you are thinking about things, it's not such a bad idea to invest in maybe some training, a short course in, in business management, in people management, just to see how you can help move it forwards. Because the reality is you won't be able to do exactly what you were doing before. You'll have to take a bit of time off the tools to manage other things. And that is just the reality. And, you know, from a lot of people I've come across in the past, previous managers of mine that have just come, they've worked their way up from being on the tools and have become a manager of sorts. And they're just not very good at doing it, the way they speak to teams and the way that they, you know, don't motivate their staff because they've never had any real training or support around it. And it's a problem.

What kind of things? Like, how would you lead a team? Like, what kind of things would you—

I think with the sort of clear communication and support, You know, keeping the boundaries in place, making sure that your staff have what they need to do their job. So whether that's an engineer on the tools, have they got the correct training with the software to make sure that they can produce the correct paperwork for the office, that sort of thing. You know, ensuring that the engineers trainees are all up to date. You know, you're effectively looking after those members of staff. You know, they're not subcontractors to you, they're staff members. So it's even things, you know, making sure that, you know, their pensions and contracts and that that aspect of it is all set up. It's not just about the job they're doing. There's a loyalty aspect, and I think people make the mistake of assuming loyalty comes with the salary that's being paid and motivation, but their motivation will be so different to any company owners.

And so the role is more supporting the team, unblocking them.

Absolutely.

Making sure they've got the tools, everything's ready so the engineers on the road can focus on fixing stuff. Yeah. And then you know, you would get everything out of the way.

And also, I think especially for engineers on the road, you know, they spend quite a lot of their day on their own, and sometimes I think some of them don't necessarily cope with that as well. So keeping communication, ensuring that, you know, is everything okay, you know, making an effort to, you know, have the old phone call and just check in with people in just the same way that for any office staff, you You're going to be aware of any changes and that might be from something external to work, but it may well have an impact on work. So, I think if you can be a good support to people, then that should put you in good stead for helping.

A common challenge that we hear is that tradespeople struggle to delegate sometimes. There's concerns about the work won't be as good as mine, those kind of elements. Anything that you could add to that?

I was never on the tools, so it wasn't something which I could relate to in that respect, but I definitely saw it. But also from, you know, going from doing all of my own admin to having to let go and let people do that, I think I very much had to learn to accept that people would make mistakes. And I think the way I would get around it with the engineers and the administrators would be to give it adequate— giving adequate training. So whether that would be, you know, some for the office staff, good understanding of the technicalities around heating systems of, you know, certain wording and terminology which, you know, would empower them to do their job. And also really good training on Gas Engineer Software was a, you know, a huge benefit, as well as for the engineers just running through that with them, because if they did their job properly, it allowed the admin staff to do their job properly. So yeah. It's, I think it's hard to let go.

Yeah, I don't think it's just related to the trades either.

It's everything.

Yeah, it is more challenging. How would you kind of know if they, like if there is a mistake, how would you know if it, whether it's a process thing or it's a people kind of challenge?

Do you mean from an office perspective or?

No, just like in general, like if sort of any mistake, would you, like would you look at the processes first or the people or like how do you kind of work through? If something goes off track?

I think that if you've got a good enough handle on the team and the work that you're doing, you'll be able to see a pattern if there are mistakes. And understanding, you know, the team you work with will, I think, give you a good idea of where the errors come in. So, whether it's laziness or lacking in, you know, really caring about the job that you're doing. And you would see that different people work in very different ways. And it's seeing a pattern, I think, and dealing with it.

So like a pattern would be like a number of callbacks, those kind of things?

Yeah, for an engineer it would be, yeah, the callbacks, maybe the customer complaints. Um, you know, it might be worth sending them out with another engineer for a while or checking, are they okay? Have they got something else that's going on? For any, I think, office staff admin users, it would be just silly errors on the system, invoices being sent incorrectly, or Just, you know, I think silly errors, a lot of that, which would inevitably cost the company money.

Well, for our company, the way that we look at sort of errors is first we look at the processes, make sure that we're 100% on the processes, and if everything is exactly how it should be, then we would— that's the only time we start looking at the actual people. Yeah. But you need to really ensure that you've done absolutely everything.

Yeah.

On the processes first.

I think it's interesting to, you know, to look at it from an overall for any company as well. And actually, if you have the correct processes in place, then you shouldn't really go wrong. And I think that's where so many companies, maybe especially for the trades, if they've come from working for somebody else, being looked after, being the employee, to then becoming the employer, and all of a sudden, you know, the situation's turned around where they're the one having to look after these people, and they haven't ever thought about the processes in place and the support they they have to put in, you know, they have to offer. I think that's it, is it is a lot around business management more so.

Yeah. And then like, when we mean processes, it's like, you know, for the, like, for the vans. Um, I've not run a heating and plumbing company, but, um, I would be assuming things like how to ensure the vans are clean. So at the end of each day, do they, you know, do they need to be cleaned? Or just something that— they don't have to be anything crazy, but it just needs to be something that is followed, and then there needs to be, you know, some checks in place that, you know, that ensure that the processes have been followed.

Which in theory is a great idea, and I think in reality the difference of having a group that vary so much in the way they look after their vans, their office space, so to speak, it's a very difficult, difficult thing to manage.

Different approaches, different approaches. Have you ever had to lead a team through a difficult situation?

Sadly, yes, a couple actually, but, and also during COVID which was a strange time for a lot of people. We, we worked throughout COVID because there was a demand for emergency works and necessary works, and, but for a lot of people it was a lonely time and everyone was in very different situations, so we were quite aware of Engineers maybe living alone or not seeing friends and work was potentially the only escape for them. And we got together for a few COVID-friendly breakfasts or drinks, outside drinks, whatever was allowed at the time. And just, we were just keeping a closer eye on staff. It was a strange time.

Yeah, I think it was quite difficult at the beginning as well because you've got the engineers going on site, but they don't know whether it's safe.

Mm, yep.

So there was that whole feel like they're kind of risking their lives for, you know, a service or, you know, whatever it is.

Yeah, and there was a huge conflict in different views. So some people would refuse to go on site or they would refuse to go into somebody's house, but the people that were working on sites didn't really mind because it was outside and it was deemed as being a bit safer. So for the service engineers, they were in theory at far more risk. And then you would have some customers that would, you know, I guess demand more of a, you know, what's your safety procedure? So we had to be very aware of our health and safety being up to date, and that, that had to be looked at and changed. It was a very strange adaptation to your normal work. And, you know, the phones were a lot quieter because there was much less of the, you know, the general servicing was slower and that sort of thing. But for emergency works, mainly because so many companies weren't able to work, so they took furlough and just had the time off. So there was a lot more, you know, new work coming in. So it was a, it was a strange time.

It was definitely hard to imagine that. Yeah, you know, like, you heard the initial reports and then you're kind of slowly realizing, oh, we need to do something.

This is happening.

Uh, for our company, uh, we carried on working, but we shut the office down. Yeah, everyone worked from home, fully remote, and then You know, we didn't, um, you know, we were there to support the gas engineers and the other trades.

Yeah.

But yeah, we didn't furlough, we carried on. Yeah. But, um, yeah, we would have meetings, so, so we wouldn't meet in person, but they would all be just virtual.

It was, I think, for, for most people, apart from maybe software companies, um, it was their first experience of Zoom meetings as well. And even as a plumbing and heating company, um, we did close the office for a certain period of time, and obviously using Gas Engineers software enabled enabled us to communicate through that, and that could be done remotely. So we would do Zoom meetings but also just work remotely, and it was quite a strange thing to get used to, um, but it was doable.

What role do you think communication plays in effective leadership?

I think a huge role, um, and one which probably isn't given enough time to, you know, listening to your colleagues, listening to your staff, and also making sure that you communicate what you need well enough. So, you know, if it's not done well, then the incorrect information can end up on a job and be provided to that engineer. You know, that could effectively lose you money in the long run. But also I think very importantly, especially in a team situation, people can feel quite left out if they don't feel informed about certain things or, you know, I know that engineers would often feel that, you know, they'd be sent to a job without the correct information and would then be working slightly blind. So it's so paramount to, you know, making sure that you fill in what you need to on software, so on the software, so that they have all the tools that they need.

I think it's quite helpful for our, in our company, having like a definition of done. What does done actually look like? So you list out all the steps when the actual project is done. Yeah. And then that just provides a lot of clarity about, you know, is it finished or is it not? And then you can look at the checklist, find out whether it's not.

That's also something which is, you know, incredibly relevant if an engineer has decided to work for himself and maybe take on another engineer, because if he doesn't, or if they don't take the right information from the quote to add to the job for another person to do, then there are going to be problems. So all of a sudden they've gone from doing everything on their own and doing their own quote, doing their own job, to now doing a quote but potentially somebody else carrying out that job. And if they don't give all that correct information or order those correct parts or order them in time, it's on that engineer.

So you kind of move— so it can't be in your head anymore.

Exactly.

It needs to be out.

Yeah, you have to communicate that properly for your staff.

Yeah, you will find out quite quickly. When you're hiring engineers, what were you looking for?

I think you realize with any, with any employee or any potential employee, um, there can be a great distance between what they say and what they do. So I think when you come to meet somebody, uh, you know, you might see a CV, you might, you know, they will sell themselves and give the information, um, on what they can do and what they have done, um, but I think you realize that anyone can say anything. And so it would be, okay, this is what you're selling me, so let's see if you can actually do what you say you can do. So we would be looking for an all-rounder. Ideal situation, if it was a service engineer, for example, you would want somebody who has, you know, the ability to service boilers as well as deal with breakdowns and repairs. And an ideal situation, if you could have somebody would do some plumbing as well as that, so a real all-rounder. But for a lot of engineers, they make the choice to do one or the other.

Okay, and how do you make sure that they're a good cultural fit?

I think the interview process initially, and then if, if, if the potential experience and they could be a suitable fit, offering them a trial. You know, something from learning the hard way of taking somebody on, then realizing that they either weren't as good as they said or were just not suitable, asking them to do a couple of days' paid work as a trial and then let them work with a couple of different people and see how they fit in.

Okay, see what— so you're basically listening to their actions, which they show you, instead of the words.

Yeah, it was difficult. We couldn't do that with administrators, so you would just have to ask the right questions and with the hope that, you know, it would work. I think with an administrator, that the ability to train them is, is there, you know, with, with gas engineer software, with the technical understanding, that's something which you can teach that person. But the ability to listen, to follow guidance, and also to understand the job they need to do, you know, that's something which has got to be there from the word go.

So whether they have the capacity to learn, they want the role and understand the role.

Absolutely. So it's A lot of it's chance, isn't it? With, you know, you take, taking on anybody, you never really know until you give them that chance.

Yeah. And so I think sometimes you, you won't actually know for a little while because in the first initial period, like month, it could be that they're learning the systems or it could be something else. So it's quite a difficult, difficult kind of thing to judge.

Absolutely. And it's not until they're more comfortable and a bit more confident in the role they're doing that you might see regression in some ways of, you know, motivation might change, you know, and I think it's coming across the people who will go the extra mile. You know, it's the end of their working day, but they really want to finish a certain task. Or the people that will be out of that door as soon as the clock hits a certain time. There are just differences and attention to detail, especially in the plumbing and heating industry. You know, if a job isn't booked in correctly, it has a huge knock-on effect for the engineer attending, the customer who's, you know, got that job in if it's on the wrong day or at the wrong time. That will cause a huge headache. So that sort of care and attention is really vital, and that's probably one of the main things that would cause a problem.

Because the engineer's going out on site, no one's there, whatever. Exactly. It's just, yeah, so you've lost time, diesel, etc.

Yeah, I think for my time in the plumbing heating industry, using Gash Engineer software enabled me to manage the team far easier than, you know, doing it manually. When I first came into it, it was all pen and paper, text messaging, or, you know, group messaging. And it just took a lot of effort to do something which didn't need that much time. And being able to all communicate easily and provide your job sheets, your records in one place, rather than coming into the office at the end of the day, come into the office at the start of the day, you know, they felt more flexibility.

And you just go straight to site. Absolutely.

I didn't need to see them every single day and they didn't really want to come to the office. So it was a far better way of doing things.

What's one leadership lesson that's really stuck with you?

I think you're always learning and be open to that. Don't ever just think that you know everything. Leadership comes with far more than being in charge of a group of people, one person, whatever it might be. And it can be a really hard lesson to learn.

Yeah, I think also with leadership, it's a bit of a dance. It's not like a binary thing that it's, one rule for, you know, there's quite a few moving parts with dealing with other people.

Yeah, and I think being prepared for anything because, you know, every day could be different and a new challenge might fall on your lap.

I think if you learn from the challenges, just that little bit every day, 1% better every day.

Yeah, learning from them is definitely an important factor.

Yeah, well, you kind of have a choice. You can either learn from it or you'll just have the same, because the same challenge will come around again. And they will keep coming around until you learn how to avoid it.

Very true.

Was there a point in your career where you knew you had to actually lead instead of just manage?

Yeah, definitely with a team of service engineers. There was one particular incident or occasion when it was quite obvious that one engineer was really bringing the rest of the team down, mainly because of, you know, His sort of level of work was really decreasing, you know, how many jobs he'd be able to do in a day. He would often be late to work, he would often call in sick, and then it got to the point where other engineers would have to go back to his jobs as callbacks and sort problems out. And it was getting the team down because they were embarrassed, I think, mainly. But we, you know, it was dealt with, you know, with communication between myself and him, and we talked through what the problems were. There were external problems which were having an effect on him anyway,, and we, you know, I tried to help support him through it and just monitor his work more so. And it did improve over a period of time, but in the end he ended up leaving the company and, uh, and it made a dramatic difference to things and the, and the, the general culture did change after that, or the general, you know, atmosphere greatly improved. So it was, uh, yeah.

It's kind of tricky in those situations because you, especially if there's like an external factor. You kind of, you need to support, but there is, there is a point where it's, you know, it's, you're aware that it's just not working.

Especially when you see the, the effect on other people. I think especially so in the trade, you know, engineers aren't really overly vocal with maybe the office about any problems they're feeling or, you know, moaning about others because they're quite, you know, they like to protect each other anyway. And it's only, you often hear it when the problems have become much, much bigger. So it was really important to try and deal with it because it was, you know, the worst case would have been if other people have left because they were fed up. And also for customers, it was having a knock-on impact with customers. So, yeah, it was really important to deal with.

Yeah, and callbacks are expensive.

Mm, they are.

Just really expensive.

So I think acknowledging when there's a problem and facing it, dealing with it to protect others if nothing else.

It's kind of a saying that, you know, all business growth is on the, what, the other side of a difficult conversation. And, um, you know, we just need to deal with some of, some of the stuff.

Yeah, no, it's very true. I think it's the same amongst, you know, often business owners, you know, amongst themselves and having that, you know, you might all have quite different agendas and sometimes those difficult conversations are the most necessary ones, but they don't always happen.

Yeah, well, I think the leadership team is not aligned. You know, you're never going to agree. Yeah, it's just not going anywhere.

No, I agree.

So no one's— not everyone's rowing in the same direction.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, thank you very much for coming on the show. Really appreciate you having you here. And yeah, thank you.

Thank you.