Are We Rushing Gas Engineers Through Training? w/ Terry Sawyer

I think just some people are being rushed through the training and they still don't have anywhere near the experience they probably should have to be a qualified gas engineer. I wouldn't say much has changed in terms of being a gas engineer itself. I think what's changed is what you need to know now. You know, when a boiler broke down 15 years ago, there weren't many things to go wrong as such, maybe 20 years ago, you know, where now you need to have a bit of a base knowledge of that boiler, that manufacturer. So that you can identify these issues.

In a sentence or two, why should people care about this conversation? Yeah, because not many engineers are also on the tools plus a GasSafe inspector. So there's not a lot of people.

No, once a lot of people have gone over to GasSafe to become inspectors, then they don't— very rarely do they venture back to being on the tools as I did. So it gives me— I have had a really good insight into both sides.

This is the Gas Engineer Podcast. I'm your host, Tullik Priest, and today I'm joined by Terry Sawyer. From inspecting installations across London to guiding engineers through inspections, Terry is a highly experienced gas engineer with over 15 years on the tools and a former GasSafe inspector. Welcome to the show, Terry.

Thank you, thanks for having me back.

Because of Terry's career path, he has a unique view of the wider industry. Today's episode will be covering his perspective on how the industry has changed and what it means for the future. How did that being an inspector kind of change your view on the industry?

I think it actually opened my eyes up to potential flaws in maybe training, some training, some training providers, things like that. Some have had phenomenal training, you know, from their initial gas training, plumbing, and even through to sort of their ACS exams to getting qualified and things in the obviously in the gas industry. But I think it showed me that there is a right way to be taught and a wrong way. And unfortunately, a lot of people are being sort of taught the wrong— not necessarily the wrong way, they're all being taught the same thing. I think just some people are being rushed through the training and then they're starting, you know, they're getting registered with GasSafe and they're starting this, you know, new venture and they still don't have anywhere near the experience they probably should have to be a qualified gas engineer.

What would you say would be the kind of the right way of training if you have kind of thought about that in depth?

I think there are too many people are in a rush to become qualified and I think although there is a process you have to follow, including your portfolio, doing your portfolio with a registered business, I think Too many people are rushing through that portfolio stage. You have to get photos, you have to do write-ups on jobs. It's very easy to rush through that just to get back to be able to do your exams. There are timescales you're not allowed to return within a certain amount of time, but I think a lot of people are not taking that time and using that time wisely to actually ask questions and get hands-on fitting in a boiler. You know, a lot of guys, you can become Gas Safe without actually fitting a boiler yourself. You know, you can become, you can get some photos with a boiler that's being fitted. You know, yeah, you can hang it on the wall, but generally it's very difficult when you're, you know, when you're at a fast pace, when you're with a business, you're out with a business doing an install, doing something like that. It's very hard to take it all in, what you've got to learn. You could fit 100 boilers and you still might not be as, you know, you still might have questions. And that's the problem because they rush through. A lot of people rush through it.

Well, you can kind of see it though. If you've, let's say you're doing slightly later in life, you're doing a career change.

Yeah.

You need to start earning that money soon.

You do, you do. And I think that might be the issue. I think that's the issue because whilst you're doing your training and whilst you're doing your portfolio, you might in a position where you're doing these things for free or in some cases you've paid someone to do your portfolio. So you're already quite a few thousand pounds down. So the quicker you get qualified, the quicker you get registered with GasSafe, the quicker you can start earning money. But the problem is you— and I, and I inspected a few of these guys, you know, new guys straight through that didn't even have the equipment they needed to be a gas engineer because they said, well, I haven't had any work yet, I've had no jobs. So it's, it's, it's a, it's difficult because you need the tools, the equipment, you know, your flue analyzers, all them things. You need all them, otherwise you can't be a gas engineer, but they're not cheap. So a lot of these guys rush through, rush through. I end up doing their inspections and they turn around and say, I haven't done anything yet, I've done nothing, I've got no work, you know, what should I do? Where should I go? And it's not for an inspector to tell them how to get work, you know, that's the difficult bit. So a lot of them rush it, thinking, get through it, start getting money, you know, start getting, start earning money again. And unfortunately, that normally means you end up slightly less ready for the real world, you know, for the working on gas boilers, you know, things like that.

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And in an ideal world, how would you kind of— what would be the ideal person going like from transitioning or, you know, as a first kind of career, how do you— how would you actually get into the gas industry?

I mean, I'm lucky enough, I'd, you know, for years I've done quite a lot of jobs. I had quite a lot of experience before that doing other things. But a friend of mine just said to me one day, I was quite hands-on anyway. So a friend of mine many years ago said, look, why don't you come and train with me? And yeah, best decision I ever made because I went out, but I actually learned. I wanted to learn the job. You know, I wasn't just rushing through it. I wanted to actually learn, is this right for me? And learn the things that any good engineer should know. So I spent a lot of time before I even got to the stage of doing my proper training, just going out with him and learning, watching and having a go, getting my hands dirty. A lot of people do get to a certain point in life and they do ask me, I was thinking about becoming a gas engineer, is it worth it? And I say, yes, of course it's worth it. It's definitely worth it. But you've got to get your experience up. Before, you know, like they say, obviously don't, you know, run before you can walk, that sort of thing. A lot of guys try and sprint before they can walk. And I've still got friends now who have been in the gas industry for many years who can fit a boiler brilliant, but when it comes to fixing a boiler, they phone me up and say, do you want this job? And I say to them, why don't you fix it yourself? And they say, well, because it's too much to, you know, but it isn't, it isn't too much. It just takes a little bit of time getting to know the workings of a boiler, and then generally you can, you know, you, you can fix it. But I know a lot of guys that still don't do that side of it because it's more learning, I suppose, more understanding rather than just being able to fit a boiler. That's the issue.

Okay, and what about for yourself? Like, some people kind of, gas engineers go into more management, other people sort of coming off the tools a little bit, but you kind of went into being a Gas Safe Inspector. What kind of prompted you to go into that direction?

I, do you know what, I don't I don't quite know, actually. Obviously, I see an advert come up for it, and I think I wanted to slow sort of my pace of life down because running my business before I joined GasSafe, I was busy. And as anyone watching this and other podcasts that you've done with other people that own businesses and run their own business, it's stressful running a business. Really stressful. It doesn't matter how well you do, it always seems the better you do, the more stressful it is. And I think I just got to a point where I didn't feel like I was at home much. I didn't feel like I was around the kids much. I wasn't getting involved in their clubs or anything like that. And I see the advert come up and I just said to my wife, is it worth giving that a shot? And yeah, so I went for it and luckily enough I got it because obviously it taught me a lot going to GasSafe, just the extra things that I learned, the things that I didn't know before that I thought I did know. Yeah. And it opened my eyes. It opened my eyes a lot. I mean, I like to get my hands dirty, so I didn't mind doing the complaints or concerns that they call them, because concerns, generally the inspector gets his tool bag out and starts testing, where on an inspection, the inspector doesn't get his tools out and start testing anything. So I like to get my hands dirty. So I was first one to put my hand up and go, yeah, I'll take that concern. Didn't really matter where it was. If no other inspector wanted it, I generally went for it because I actually liked turning up, getting all my tools out and almost picking apart these concerns that we got. But yeah, that side of it was fine because that's why I joined. I got a bit of a life back outside of work, if that makes sense. And I hadn't had that for many years, a bit of a life, a bit of free time almost.

Yeah, and then at the end of that, you kind of, you did go back to the tools. You did.

I did. You know what it is? It's quite strange. I sort of, I missed getting my hands dirty. I actually missed the, I know it sounds a bit crazy, I missed the stress. You know, I missed what comes with running a business, you know, and being, you know, and having a company and stuff. I missed them stresses. I missed getting the jobs booked in and things like that. So yeah, in the end it was just, it was, although I like, I love GasSafe, I wouldn't say stress.

I would say challenge.

Challenge. Yeah. I think at some points it's a good stress. A lot of people often say to me, how's work? And I go, yeah, it's really busy. It's really busy. It's a good thing, but I'm really stressed. I'm really stressed because we're so busy and it's trying to keep everyone happy is what makes it stressful. And a lot of people say, well, that's a good stress, isn't it? And I say, yeah, it is a good stress. It's a stress I'd rather have than having no work or less work. You know, so it's— but I miss them, I miss them things, you know. I loved, I loved the— what I was doing at GasSafe, and I love the way it was, it worked, and I could highlight things with other engineers that they didn't quite know or that they needed to work on, things like that. So I like that side of it. But yeah, I like, I like getting my hands dirty, and there was only, there's only one way to do that. Yeah.

Yeah, it feels that. You mentioned that when you went to GasSafe, what kind of like big standout things did you learn from when you transitioned from being sort of solely on the tools to being an inspector?

Probably how little I actually knew, because you only learn a certain—

How long did you work on the tools before you actually became an inspector? Maybe just roughly, just to give some—

14 years. Yeah.

Okay. So a good chunk of time.

Yeah. But you only learn what you get taught and you only get taught what you need to know to pass generally. Now, yeah, there's lots of very helpful information GasSafe can provide. Technical bulletins are one of them because they get updated so often. A technical bulletin will tell you anything about a certain subject. And it gets updated every time there is an update. No one reads technical bulletins unless they are looking for a specific thing, and that maybe should— because there's so many of them, but they are very, very useful things to have. And you can go on the Gas Safe website, you can have a look at technical bulletins on anything, you know, smart meters, things like that. There's so many different smart meters now, no one knows. You get so many engineers say, I don't know how to use that smart meter. That make that model smart meter. Well, there's a technical bulletin that tells you all about it. You know, you just got to go through the list. But there's also a lot of helpful technical bulletins on there that you wouldn't have ever come across, you know, that you wouldn't have ever thought of.

What's a good example? Or give us some examples.

Things like, I'll tell you one that most people don't, and I used to try and not catch people out with a question, but I used to say to people, okay, gas meter's outside the house, all right? And you got, it's been, you know, it's on the side, it's on the side of the house in a box. And the gas is coming in, coming up out the ground into the box. I'd say to them, nothing wrong with that. You do a tightness test on that, nothing wrong with that, right? Fine. And then you come back the following year and now there's a conservatory built over. You've got a conservatory now built over that where that gas meter is. And that would be one of my questions. What are the issues now? And loads of people are thinking I'm catching them out. Oh, 'cause you can't have a gas meter inside. We go, of course you can. There's gas meters under your stairs. Of course you can have a gas meter inside. What can't you have inside? And that's where there's technical bulletins that tell you that you can't have plastic gas supply inside. So then it comes down to, right, well, who's at fault here? You know, who's at fault? Well, whoever built the conservatory is at fault because they've done two things. They've built over service, which you're not allowed to do. So they put their footings over a gas pipe, over a plastic gas pipe, and there's now gas pipe inside, plastic. So it's a call to Cadent. Let Cadent deal with it, you know, because there's not actually anything a gas engineer can do about that. So it's categorized as at risk, but turning off the gas supply wouldn't make any difference because it's the incoming gas that you can't control. Right. So a lot of people that used to catch— not catch them out, but I used to say to them, right, what's wrong with that? Some people got it. And you know what? Just little things like that. There's a technical bulletin that explains a lot of that about build over service. And obviously then you've got plastic inside where you can't have it. It can't be plastic. And when people used to go, I didn't even think of that. And then I'd get a phone call a couple of weeks later saying, I've just found the plastic inside. Someone's built a porch on the front of their house and they've done it themselves. And then the gas meter's in there with plastic to it. And he says, I wouldn't have ever known that.

So this kind of happens more regularly than you think. It's not like a once in like a 10-year kind of—

No, that's quite, it's quite common. I've seen it a few times. Yeah. I've seen it a few times where people have built things on the side of their house and just not even thought about what they're actually doing to the gas meter because no one ever thinks about the plastic gas pipe inside. It's not something that gets gets thought about because you assume it can be used inside, but obviously it can melt and then you've got a big problem if it does. If you have a fire, you've got a huge problem.

You've seen hundreds of engineers in action. What are some of like the biggest quality gaps that you kind of notice?

I used to prefer inspecting businesses that have been running for a while, you know, that have had inspections before, because generally they were like the old school type of engineer. You know, they've been around a long time, they've seen a lot, they've had a lot, they've actually you know, they've had to deal with a lot and they've also come across a lot of GasSafe issues where they might have had to call GasSafe for advice. I think it's a lot of the newer ones that have— not all new probationary inspections were bad. They would actually— a lot of them were very, very good, very, very well organised, very well equipped in terms of what they needed. They read their letter from GasSafe and they followed it exactly to the letter. But I think, yeah, some of the businesses, some of the engineers that rushed through and perhaps didn't get the quality of training. That was the issue I see, the gap that I see, because they don't really have any way of getting that unless they go out with a business. That's what I said to some of them, look, find a business that will take you out with them, that will show you how to do it because you're qualified. But I mean, I spoke to some that ended up saying, I don't know why I got registered. I'm going to go back up the city and just do pipe running on site. Because I need to get paid, you know, I need money. So they actually registered Gas Safe and then said, but I'm not gonna do any gas work, I haven't got any work, so I'm gonna go back to plumbing.

You kind of have that gap where you have all that training, you're using your savings, and then you just, yeah.

You need to go back to work, and if you haven't got any gas work, and that was a question I got from a lot of the probationary guys is, how do I get work? And it was almost impossible to say to them, especially if they didn't have all the equipment because they couldn't afford it. They've spent all their money getting Gas Safe.

Are there many opportunities to work for other companies?

In terms of company, I think that is also a slight problem with some of these new guys that are getting freshly qualified. So a lot of companies do require a certain experience. They want someone who's been qualified for 3 years, 5 years, things like that. So it's difficult for a new engineer to get into a company that's well established. The issue then that The problem that sort of poses for me and what I've seen is that means then the companies that are willing to take you on, they know that you're not experienced, but yet they seem to then bombard the engineer with more jobs in a day than what they could probably safely handle. And I think that's the issue because what they then do, they say, well, you've got no experience, so they pay you much less than what the job is actually worth. But when you haven't got any other opportunities to earn money as a gas engineer, you can't really turn it down. So I did see that, and I have seen that since I've actually been back on the tools as well. I've seen it where you hear some of these engineers saying, well, I've got to do 15 gas certs a day and things like that to be able to make any money. Well, then the problem with that is unless you're doing, I don't know, 20-hour day, If you're doing them properly, that's a very almost impossible task, but it's the only way that they can earn money. So what tends to happen is they tend to make mistakes. They're rushing through each job. And I did see that, you know, I actually see it. I was lucky enough to go out on an inspection with one of the large business inspectors who they deal with the bigger companies and we sort of see it, yeah, see it firsthand that you can make silly little mistakes when you're rushing through a safety check or a service. That ultimately can end up killing someone.

If you're going to try and do 15 in a day, your focus is not going to be on quality.

No, definitely not. And not when you're getting paid per job and it's not a lot of money. So that's silly little things that can lead, test points on gas valves being left open. You've done your inlet pressure on your gas valve, you've opened your gas and you've taken all your equipment off and you've not done the screw-up. You then go and put the case back on the boiler and everything and you're on your way, and it fills the boiler up with gas. And obviously, yeah, that has very bad consequences. You know, silly little things like that. Test points. Now this is one that I only come up— I actually see on Friday. What day we on? Monday? Yeah, Friday. I went to do a gas safety inspection and boiler was in the loft. And when I got in the loft, I noticed that the, the flue test point cap was not on the— it was not screwed on. It was just left next to the boiler and the top of the boiler was all rusted where the flue gas has been corroding the top of the boiler. Now that is where someone's rushed. That's all it is. They've just not put the cap back on. Now a lot of us have done that. We've all done it. But normally you realize you've done it when you've driven away and you turn around and go back. I've done it where I've gone back before and I had screwed it on, but in my head I'm thinking, oh, did I screw it back on? If you doubt yourself as a gas engineer, you need to go back and have a look. You know, it's, you know, if you're embarrassed about it, you say, well, I think I've left one of my tools in your loft or by your boiler. But silly things like that happen more often than what they should, especially when people have got a lot of jobs on.

So what other choices do you have then? So if you're just starting out, you just need to find a decent company because it's expensive for the company to send 2 engineers out on the same job.

100%. I mean, I did suggest to a lot of people that they volunteer their services just to get a bit more experience. Bearing in mind, you know, it's a very daunting thing fitting a boiler for the first time. If you've never fitted a boiler before on your own, fitting a boiler for the first time, a lot of guys won't do it. You know, they won't put themselves in a position because it is quite, you know, if something went wrong, it's quite serious. If they don't do it right, they're getting caught, you know, Gas Safe might be calling them up. So, and if you, yeah, if you haven't fitted one properly on your own, then that's when people avoid it. And it's not, obviously it's not easy just to go, right, I'm gonna start fitting boilers. Because you need customers. But I often, I said to people, look, just volunteer. I've taken people out with me before who have just said, look, I just need a bit more experience. You know, I, I don't worry about taking someone out and showing them what I know because I've got my own customer base and, you know, I'm fortunate to have, you know, my regular, regular business. But I'll take anyone out and show them how I do it. Yeah, I used to take people out all the time and, and go through it with them. And if they had questions, I'd answer the questions because you can't— if I knew that, obviously I don't know the answer to everything, far from it, but I'm not afraid to ring up GasSafe or any of my old colleagues and ask them if I'm at all unsure of something. I'm not afraid to ring up and ask. But yeah, generally sometimes that's the only way you can get work is by getting more experience. And sometimes unfortunately that might mean volunteering 1 or 2 days a week. If there's a local business that will take you out with them. A lot of people go, no, no one will do that. No one will do that because they don't want to lose work to someone else and blah, blah, blah. But I actually think a lot of people would appreciate a second pair of hands. If you want to come out and learn how to fit a boiler, well, you're probably going to have to help carry a few tools and help with the manual side of it. Well, that's part of the job. Everyone's had to do that at some point. So actually some people would appreciate.

There's one way to find out, let's just ask people.

Exactly that.

With your kind of, because you've been in the industry and seen it from a few different angles, what's actually changed? Like when you first started to sort of now?

What's changed? I mean, well, there's a lot more people, there's a lot more gas engineers now than there obviously, than there was when I started. A lot more people are doing it. I wouldn't say much has changed in terms of being a gas engineer itself. I think what's changed is what you, what you need to know now. You know, when a boiler broke down 15 years ago, there weren't many things to go wrong as such, maybe 20 years ago, you know, where now you need to have a bit of a base knowledge to help to make you feel more confident, to have a bit of a base knowledge of that boiler, that manufacturer, so that you can identify these issues. Now, most things, like with everything we own now, most things, everything's got more sensors in it, more electronics, more things, you know, where, you know, if a fan in an old boiler is not working because it won't be spinning, the fan's not working, it's not spinning, right? You know that if the fan is working but the boiler is still not firing up, well, then it's going to be an air pressure switch on the old boilers. So you just trace it where now it's going to be a code and the code is going to be what determines the way you fix an appliance. But there are so many to know now. So I think that's changed in terms of what people are willing to learn because there's more things. Not everyone learns the same way. Not everyone remembers the same way. But I definitely think that's changed a lot. And I think it will change even more as technology obviously evolves with the industry.

Because you've got the kind of the greener energy or the heat pumps and other things coming in as well. How do you kind of see that, you know, that those kind of changes, you know, impact the industry?

I, do you know what, I've seen people are going over, you know, they're doing their courses to learn how to do these. I think that's just to keep up with the potential increase in customers who are going to ask ask for these greener solutions, these air source heat pumps and all sorts. I think the problem with that is, again, most people you speak to who fit air source heat pumps know how to fit them, but no one seems to know how to fix them when they go wrong. So I think that's the downside, because it isn't even like you can read a book and it will tell you how to fix these things. They do go wrong, unfortunately. But too many businesses are focused too much on installation and then relying on manufacturers to do repairing, that sort of thing. So although doing a little course to learn how to install these things, it's not much. And for most of these engineers out there, it's a walk in the park. I think all of a sudden, if more and more people have these, all of a sudden we're not going to have any engineers who can actually repair them when they go wrong.

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Yes.

So it's kind of, you know, that the need is on the installation side, you know, and I think, you know, as demand for the repairs and stuff comes in.

I think so. Yeah. I think that will change. I do think that obviously from my own personal view on this is that they won't take off and then all of a sudden everyone's going to have one in their house because they don't work very well in certain houses. It's been proven, you know, New builds, great, heavily insulated. You know, they've all been air tested. That's all, they work well. They keep the house warm, they keep your hot water warm. They do really well. But I've known people already have had them taken out because it just hasn't worked in the same way that we want them to work because it is early days. Technology's new, you know, relatively new in terms of what we're asking of this, you know, these machines and what they actually do. So I think that is why a lot of engineers are still put off by even getting involved with them.

Well, I think the other thing is that, you know, the combi boilers, they work over such a wide kind of range.

Yeah, definitely.

For the heat pumps, you know, you need to do your calculations correct.

100%.

Yeah. You don't want to be too big, too small, just— no, that's right, that's right.

And I think, and also changing, changing the views of, you know, your, your old school gas engineer is always going to be very difficult, you know. Especially when they're, you know, when they're trialling hydrogen, which is obviously becoming, you know, Gas Safe are heavy on that, what hydrogen is, what part that's going to play, because a lot of boilers now that are being manufactured are, you know, capable of, you know, they're hydrogen ready, as they say, which is likely to be the probably more long-term solution if they can work out a way of, you know, work out a way of doing it. They are trialling different things around the country. With hydrogen.

And, um, do you think that's a likely kind of, like, out of heat pumps or hydrogen, if you had to place a bet, which way would you go?

Hydrogen, because unless you're going to insulate every single house prior to fitting a heat pump, you know, that sort of thing, um, I think hydrogen, you know, they're all, you know, they're already talking about the mix in the 20% hydrogen with natural gas in the pipelines, you know, which is, which is, yeah, the equivalent to something like 5 million cars off the road or something like that. Which is quite a big chunk, you know, just mixing a small, just having a small amount of hydrogen and most things will still work absolutely fine with that small mix of hydrogen. So I think, I think hydrogen is probably more likely to happen rather than trying to get everyone on heat source, you know, because it isn't going to work everywhere. You can't, you know, you can't have it working everywhere. I think that will be the likely way forward.

Yeah. And as a gas engineer, do we need to get ready? For hydrogen?

I don't think it's going to be for a long time. Hydrogen requires much more volume than natural gas. So to get 100% hydrogen to a property, you'd have to upgrade the gas supplies to be able to cope with the extra volume. Everyone would have to lose their, you know, lose things like gas fires because they won't work with hydrogen. But I think, I think having this mix, they might work out a way of doing a mix of hydrogen and gas. It will probably work better I would have thought, than trying, especially over the next, you know, you know, I'm not talking 100 years. 100 years, we'll probably have something else. It would be everything would be running off some technology that hasn't even been thought of yet. But yeah, I think hydrogen is probably easier in the long term to try and be greener, you know, as a whole for the country.

Yeah, I just really don't know. No, there's challenges with hydrogen and Yeah, it's just tricky. Like, if you're going to do, like, infrastructure changes, that's just— that's— this is just a huge investment there. But as you say, maybe a mix. I don't know.

No, I don't know. I think all new builds, obviously new builds are all getting the, the, the, um, obviously the heat pumps and stuff. So, and they're, they're equipped to— they're being designed with them. They're being designed—

well, you've got the heat calculations, you've got everything there.

You've got everything now. And, and all the houses obviously air pressure tested. They've got to maintain a certain air. So, so your, your creating the right environment and right building to suit this technology. And then they work great. They work brilliantly. Same with a lot of in London now, big buildings. They're all going down that route because it's being designed well. I just think it's much harder to adapt that technology to an older house. My house is 1930s, so it probably wouldn't cope well with—

No, anything Victorian.

No, that's what I meant. No, exactly that. I think then it would be very difficult to make it work. Hybrid systems is something that's been— hybrid system is something that's been becoming more popular to back up the heat source. So the heat source does— still does its job, but they will— there's still a gas boiler that backs up the heat source. Now these hybrid systems are looking the probably the most likely way to go short term if you've got an older property but you want to try and you know, go down that greener route. I think you can still have your heat source, still have your air source pump and everything, but you have a boiler that works with the system.

Okay, so predominantly you can be heat source, and then on the cold winter days—

Yeah, just bump it up, boost it with a gas boiler. Yeah, so that would obviously in turn bring the gas usage down, obviously considerably. So that may be the better route. And hybrid systems work because you can't, you know, if you do need to boost the, the heat source, then you've got the boiler to back it up, you know.

Yep, that sounds good. Well, uh, thank you very much for your time. Really appreciate your input. And, uh, you know, it's, it's good to have you on the, on the show again, Terry.

Yeah, no, thank you.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

No problem. Thank you.