What Most Sole Traders Get Wrong About Their First Hire w/ Sarah Kidby

I also think it's really important as well in the hiring process to not do it alone. So, you know, especially if you get to a point of being desperate for somebody, you know, you tend to have this like tunnel vision and you can miss some major red flags when it comes to hiring. You know, I don't like to use the phrase jack of all trades, but if you're constantly looking for somebody who's capable of doing everything, one of two things will happen. Either you won't find somebody because it's It's too wide and varied, the role, or you'll find somebody that's maybe 10% good at everything, which in fact again isn't going to be a good thing for you because at some point the wheels are going to fall off.

This is the Field Rocket Podcast. I'm your host, Tullik Priest, and today we're joined by Sarah from Strategic Coach. Welcome to the show, Sarah.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, well, thank you for coming. Could you tell us what Strategic Coach is and what your role is within the organization?

Yeah, absolutely. So Strategic Coach is a coaching program strictly for entrepreneurs that are running successful businesses. And my role here is to really support those entrepreneurs in between their quarterly workshops with one-to-one focusing calls. And we cover a huge range of topics. So it could be anything from hiring, implementation of various tools and concepts, navigating difficult situations, scaling. Nothing's off the table, really. So I get to see it all, the good, the bad, the ugly. And it's just a joy to be part of such an amazing community.

It's quite a unique position because you get to see— well, I would imagine you get to see kind of people or companies at different kind of stages and, you know, and also kind of when they get stuck, when they kind of hit the ceiling.

Yeah, absolutely. And to be part of their whole experience, you know, goes full circle. So, you know, quite often companies will entrepreneurs will come into the Strategic Coach program with a company and almost be like a solopreneur. They're doing everything themselves, um, and then, you know, within sort of 12 to 18 months they've scaled, they've built a team. Um, I've been part of that and the onboarding process and, um, just seeing some magnificent stories, um, and, you know, evolution really of the entrepreneurs that I work with. And it's just a really, really amazing thing, like I say, to be part of and to witness and to to get to play my part as well in that is, is phenomenal. And all I do is, you can probably tell, is just listen and talk. However, you know, that's really, really important for, um, for yourself and the other entrepreneurs that I work with because it can be quite lonely running a business. You know, there's not really anybody that typically understands what's going on in your world. Um, so to have somebody like myself where you can just come and unload and know that, you know, it's confidential, I'm going to be here, I'm going to be in your corner, I'll tell you when you're making mistakes, I'm not afraid to do to do that. But also as well, I'm here to celebrate all the good things that are happening and steer you in the right direction for doing amazing things.

That sounds good. You kind of touched on it there slightly. You said about the solo entrepreneurs or kind of sole traders. Today, I'd like to talk about hiring. So if you are a solo entrepreneur and your business is growing and you can't actually cover everything, Could you kind of run us through how you should actually look for and what to look for when you're actually hiring your first or your 10th sort of employee?

Yeah. So this is a question I often get asked. I think when you start out running your own business, you're wearing all of the hats, doing all of the things, maybe even have a mindset that nobody else could do it quite as good as you, which isn't the truth. And at some point, you know, you have to break through that ceiling of complexity that you're currently up against and decide, okay, I need to bring somebody in to really support me in the areas that I'm not strongest, you know, and to really play into your own strengths. And the process for hiring actually is exactly the same whether or not it's your first person or it's your 100th person. It should be really, really well thought through and well planned. So, you know, when I look at hiring, the first place we start is with a list of activities that you would like to hand over to the individual that you're hiring. Because what we need to know is, you know, what is it that we need, and then what do we want? So there are two different lists actually that we're looking to compile here. We've got the need list. This is the need that we're hiring for. But then it's ultimately, you know, if we had a wish list, what would be on that wish list? And that would be your want list. Um, you know, I don't like to use the phrase jack of all trades, but if you're constantly looking for somebody who's capable of doing everything, one of two things will happen. Either you won't find somebody because it's, it's too wide and varied, the role, or you'll find somebody that's maybe 10% good at everything, which in fact, again, isn't going to be a good thing for you because at some point the wheels are going to fall off.

And if you were, let's say you were an engineer and you've got sort of one or two other engineers that are helping you and you were looking for your first admin person, this is like a first full-time admin. And the reason that you're possibly looking for that role is that if you're on the fixing boilers, trying to juggle your calendar, everything on your phone, and you're just not getting back to people with the invoices are not going out, you're not being chased up, etc. So, if you could, you just kind of talk us through, you know, in that scenario, what would be like the first step that you would actually do and who would you be actually looking for?

Okay, so again, you know, coming back to creating a list of activities and making sure as well, they're things that you don't enjoy doing, you know, you don't you really want to hand over things that you actually enjoy doing. So if things like diary management are really important to you, sending invoices, chasing up payments, you know, start to build that list and look for that person that has that, that capability. Um, but more so as well, motivation. So, you know, capability is something that we can teach and we can continue to develop. However, if they don't have the motivation to do it today, chances are they're not going to have it tomorrow or at any point in the future. So, you know, how do you—

sorry, yeah, I was going to say, how do you actually test for that? Like, during an interview, you know, it's like a first date, everyone's, you know, really rosy, but how do you actually test for motivation?

It's really difficult because it's not something that you can massively measure. It's a feeling, it's a gut feeling as well. So, you know, when— if you were having a conversation with somebody who says, oh, you know, yeah, I could do invoices, That for me, I'd have a question mark. But if they're like, 'Absolutely, you know, I've got some experience in sending invoices and I'm really, really happy to learn and develop that skill so I can best support you,' just through tone and, you know, body language is really a key way of being able to test motivation. Language is so, so important. You know, the tone and the language that's used is definitely going to be a big indicator as to whether or not they're motivated. You know, children as well. You know, if you've got children, you can tell when they're motivated and when they're not, and it's definitely the tone of their language. That's a big indicator.

And the word "no" also appears if they're not that keen. I think, well, for ourselves, for when we actually are part of the hiring process, we actually give people a— when we're actually doing the sending, they'll send in the CVs, so we have the job ad up, and we ask for a Loom video asking for answering some questions. And what we find is that Only around about 10% people reply. So that kind of cuts out a few. And then we do an interview and then we actually do a test project as well. So we try to model almost what would be their day, like a typical day or some typical tasks. And then we kind of see, we can compare the actual projects as well. And you do see a little bit of that motivation sort of coming through. Which, you know, it's what we find is quite useful.

Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely, you know, the big, I would say, sticky point really when it comes to hiring, because it's not something that you can specifically measure, you know, motivation, and you do have to trust your gut feeling a lot. And, you know, quite often people will say to me, like, how are you so, so good at being able to, you know, read people and understand people? And don't forget, you know, I've been working with people for a really long time. I worked in recruitment for a really long time before coming to Strategic Coach. I've learned some of the, the tricks and, um, you know, some of the, the bad habits that people put in place to try and compensate for things. Um, but the one thing that will always steer you right will be your gut feeling. So, you know, do listen to it, because the amount of times that I advise clients to, you know, listen to their gut feeling, they go against it, and then maybe 3 months down the line they have to look at removing someone from their team, um, is— yeah. Too many times to count. And I'm still having similar conversations like that with people time and time again.

Well, you kind of mentioned at the beginning around about the wants and the needs. Could you just kind of like, how do you define which— what is a want and what is a need?

Yeah. So I think when we're at that point of deciding that we need to hire, that's because we've identified we need certain people to come and fill the skills that are not being filled currently and the gaps that we have within the business. But then what can happen is you, you can have like your needs list. So let's say for example, when we use somebody from an admin role, let's say you need somebody to be able to come in and do invoicing, to chase up payments, to maybe do some diary management. But then you want somebody who can also do marketing. Now, that's great. And I'm not saying that you can't have the same person doing everything. However, if you then start to put a real key focus on that role as being marketing, as well as kind of that support person and doing all of the admin behind the scenes, then you actually reduce the amount of people you're probably going to take through to interview process. And it's going to take you much, much longer to find that person that you're looking for, because rather than just hiring specifically on what you need, you're now looking at a list which can be quite comprehensive. And it becomes like looking for, you know, a needle in a haystack or, you know, a unicorn. You know, it's, you know, it's nice, but does it really exist? And it can happen. And, you know, I think even the companies that are out there and do a really great job of hiring still can hire, try to hire against, you know, both their needs and their wants together. And I think what we need to do when we are hiring is, you know, we have that what we need list, and maybe that's only 80% of, you know, the standard role. But what that does then is that gives the, the new candidate that's coming in that ability to really develop that role into, you know, maybe what you do want and need. But also as well, it allows them to grow and be able to bring in a skill set that maybe you're not currently aware of that could really, really complement what you're doing and what you're doing well.

Okay, so you're kind of saying aim for the 80% that you, you need right now. And then as you kind of see that person and they learn your culture, etc., then that last 20%, you just kind of, you can deal with that as that person grows and as the company grows as well.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I started my role here at Strategic Coach, I was doing a completely different role. And it's only over time that I've been able to really you know, develop and do what I do now because I'm given the freedom to be able to carve out what I want to do here. So, you know, I really do believe in bringing in right-fit people. And when we talk about right-fit people, you know, it really is making sure that they're aligned to your values and, you know, that they can really just bed into the culture that you've created in your company as well. So culture and values are massively important because if you've got somebody that's not aligned to your values or, you know, can't really fully invest in the culture that you're trying to build, then they're not going to stay with you for very long. And, you know, that's okay because we don't want people like that in our organizations.

When you mean sort of cultural values, that's quite a, you know, it can be kind of thought of quite a different ways. Like if you're a heating company or electrical company or any other kind of trades, what kind of things would you be having as a, like a value?

Yeah. So I mean, showing up on time is probably something for that industry that's really important to them. They want their customers and their clients to know that they are trustworthy. Worthy, um, you know, that they do a great job, you know, and that they exceed, you know, expectations. So, you know, if you had somebody that was coming to maybe sort out the electrics and, you know, they turned up with some sellotape and a pair of scissors, you know, are they going to do a great job? Um, you know, so it's, it's just really making sure that, you know, the people that you hire, you know, do they have, you know, The willingness as well to want to do a, you know, a first-class job and to exceed someone's expectations. Um, you know, we can't believe that everyone is just like we are. You know, I made that mistake many, many years ago. And, you know, when we are all different, it's not to say that we can't work together, but, you know, there are people in my life, even in my personal life, that are not aligned with my, my personal core values. So I don't have a relationship with them anymore. Um, but it's so, so important when you are building your team to make sure that, you know, everyone is aligned. And I know values, it can feel really difficult to try and articulate what they are. But just think about what's most important to you. What do you want your clients to think about you? You know, nobody wants to have a bad reputation. So when you think about reputation as well, what's really important? And that's a great way for you to just get— it doesn't have to be loads, like 3 to 5 core values, and they don't even have to be like huge sentences, even if they're just one word. But that has to be something that's really inside of you, and that's important when you're, you know, working with your customers and your clients.

Okay, so before you actually do the first interview, um, just kind of sit down, 3 to 5, actually work out what's important to you. Like, if let's say you're hiring an engineer and he was on site with the customer, you know, what would you really want from that person? And then just kind of document that. And then when you're doing the interviews, like, I'm not sure how to do it But there must be a kind of a way that you can test whether they're tidy or, you know, yeah, I can't think of a way off the top of my head. I don't know whether you have any ideas, but, you know, like whether they're tidy or they actually did the job. But there must be a way that you can actually test because—

Well, I would, you know, I think just asking simple questions is a great way to understand like how somebody really shows up and, you know, does does the role and does it well. And, you know, the first thing I would always say is like, tell me the best day you've ever had, like in the last, you know, 5 years, what was the best day you had? Because everyone has that memory. And everyone's got a memory of their worst day as well. So tell me your worst day, you know, because that's a really good indicator as to what's really important to them. And you know, what was, you know, really exciting for them in that good day, but then the bad day, And also as well, asking them like, what did you take away from that bad experience? Like, how have you made sure that's not happened again?

So whether they captured the learning or whether it was just a bad day and just ignored it. For our company, one of our core values is 1% better every day. And the way that we test that during the interview is that we're asking, what have you learned in the last 6 months. And what we're looking for is things that they've learned which has not been forced upon them. So, it wasn't, they weren't forced to do it by some outside force, but they actually did it off their own back, just out of pure curiosity. And, you know, we build software. And so, things that we're looking for is they would build themselves an app, a website that connects to an API, get some some data or whatever it is. But for us, that works really well. You kind of mentioned earlier about growing. When we're employing somebody, how long are we looking for them to stay?

So if you can have somebody with you for 3 to 5 years, then you are winning. So ultimately, we would like people to come in and be with us forever. That's unrealistic. If you can get somebody and they're with you for 3 years Brilliant. If they're with you 5, amazing. If they're with you longer term, phenomenal. But what tends to happen, you know, over that, that initial 3-year period is either you will outgrow them or they will outgrow you. So if you are scaling your company and you are looking to grow exponentially, sometimes team members that we hire really struggle with that growth, that curve, because they kind of are very happy with, you know, what's currently working and maybe the fact that it is quite small and we are kind of all involved with each other and we know what's happening. And there can be a real feeling of uncomfortability, you know, when you are scaling and people, as I say, you will outgrow them and that's okay and they will leave you. Or maybe you've brought somebody into your company who, you know, is really massively ambitious themselves and, you know, decides that actually the way that you are developing your company isn't for them and they outgrow you. And maybe they want to go off and be an entrepreneur themselves, or they maybe want to go off and, you know, experience a completely different industry. Industry, and that's okay as well. Um, but you should never go in with the mindset that somebody's going to be with you forever. You know, like I say, if you can get 3 to 5 years, you're winning. Um, but for most people, you know, if they can get a year and a half, 2, that's a big tick.

Okay, so you, you— so when you're doing the actual lists of needs, you're actually looking at maybe 12 months, 18 months in the head. Would you say that's kind of fair? Or is it more kind of like needs now?

I think it's probably a little bit of both, to be honest, because I think what we don't want to do is hire for the needs of the future if actually we've got really immediate needs that need to be addressed. I think as your company further develops, um, and maybe you are currently, let's say, a team of 10, then it's— if you are in a position to be able to hire out and look into the future and maybe hire 6 months ahead, then great. But, you know, that's not possible for everyone. Um, you know, it's something I experience a lot here. Uh, but if you can, you know, if you can forward see that actually I know that we're going to be taking on a big project in 6 months' time because there's that development, maybe what we'll do is we'll start looking now for like good electricians or carpenters because I know that in 6 months' time everyone's going to be looking and we're all going to be struggling. Um, then it just allows you to be able to plug that gap much, much sooner. But obviously there is an investment involved when you are hiring, and, you know, do you currently have the work, you know, to be able to, you know, facilitate them over that period of time until you do get busy? So it's very much kind of like weighing everything up to see, like, is there actually a benefit here for us? And it's, yeah, it's a juggling act.

So kind of in summary, if, um, like, let's say you're a sole trader or slightly bigger First thing is jot down some values, you know, things that you just want to see done, and then kind of during the interview, kind of match those up. And you're saying that the most important thing is the motivation and those core values, less about the actual skills involved. Is that correct?

Yeah, I would say as much as capability is really important and skill set and making sure that they can do the job, it's something that we can develop. So even if someone has just a very basic understanding and knowledge of doing something, at least we can build upon that. You know, we, we have kind of got to where we are today in life just through learning. So it is something that we can learn and develop over time. But if you are hiring somebody with very little to no motivation, you, you will really, really struggle. I also think it's really important as well in the hiring process to, um, to not do it alone. So, you know, especially if you get to a point of being desperate for somebody, you know, you tend to have this like tunnel vision, um, and you can miss some major red flags when it comes to hiring. You're actually getting support from, you know, it doesn't even have to be somebody that works in your business with you, but just knowing that somebody is there to be able to maybe catch some of the red flags that maybe come up throughout that interview process. They're just really there to feel them out. Um, you know, we want to make sure that we're working with people, you know, that are not going to drive us crazy. Um, so try not to, wherever possible, do interviewing on your own. Like, always have at least one other person there. Try to do more than one interview as well. I know it can be difficult, but try to see them on a couple of different occasions with different people with you as well, just in case something comes up that one person misses and somebody else catches. But I know that the industry that you're referring to is quite fast-paced, so, you know, it's not always possible. But again, you know, going back to listening to your gut feeling, you know, it's going to be really, really important as well.

Yeah, I think that's a very good point. We do a trial day, so you can— it's paid, we pay for the people's time, and you just get to spend a bit more time with them, which is really good. And it's just really important because, like, during that first interview, it's very artificial. But when you actually see somebody actually working and, you know, you kind of know that you're a better fit as well.

Yeah, absolutely. I also think as well, you know, having something that's really relaxed and, you know, just sort of like a walk and a talk and grab a coffee. Is a great way to see somebody like in their natural state as well. Because, you know, if you feel that you're coming for a first or a second interview, as you say, it does feel very artificial. It's almost like they're prepped and rehearsed for that experience. Whereas if you just say, okay, so, you know, great, let's just, next time I see you, I'd love us to just go and grab a Starbucks or a Costa. And let's just go for a walk and just get to know each other, like on a personal level. Because that again, can be like a real insightful experience as to whether or not we want to be working with this person.

That sounds very good. Well, thank you very much for your help today. So that was very good. And yeah, we really appreciate your time. Thank you.

Thanks, Taluk. Take care.