Why This Installer Won't Do Gas Boilers w/ Hollie Stallworthy

I then had to make a decision in myself. Do I have no money but do the job that I love, or do I try something else which gives me more money to buy a house, go on holidays, you know, live, that sort of thing?

Basics.

At the very beginning, you just want to take all the work on and please everyone, but then at the cost of yourself, because you then get very tired, you get overwhelmed. You can't really keep on top of all the work that comes in, but you just— you're self-employed, you're greedy, you want all of the work. But it's just finding coping mechanisms to, to manage that, really.

Why should people care about this conversation?

People should care about this conversation because a lot of other oil and gas technicians do get the temptation to go self-employed. And I hope that with whatever I say in this little series of questions helps them make that decision that's best for them because it's not easy.

This is the Gas Engineer Podcast. I'm your host, Tullik Priest. And today I'm joined by Holly Stallworthy.

Hello.

Holly is a sole trader, sorry, a limited company now.

Limited company now, yeah.

Yeah. And an OFTEC registered oil technician who's built her own business into a huge success with a thriving customer base of over 600. This episode is part of a series celebrating the success of Gas Engineer software users and their stories. Welcome to the show, Holly.

Thank you for having me.

Starting and running a business can be a challenge. We'll talk to Holly about how she's managed to build a successful business from the ground up by specialising in oil. As always, if you enjoy these conversations, please like and subscribe to the podcast. What would you say, kind of like a summary, pros and cons of—

Wow, that's the question, isn't it?

Yeah, kind of putting you on the spot here slightly.

Yeah, whoa. So the pros obviously of being self-employed, you can manage your own diary, you can take whatever days you want off. You have the freedom to say no to work, obviously, if you don't quite gel with the customer or you, you know, various other reasons. You can take on whichever work you like. It's— you just got so much more freedom. The cons of it is that everything's on you, the responsibility of everything. If everything goes wrong, it just goes back on you. And even though I say you've got the freedom to manage your own diary, somehow it doesn't always work out that way, and you find that you are working quite a lot when you're self-employed. It's not a 9-to-5 thing. You are still answering the phone at 10 o'clock at night. You're still doing invoices and quotes and getting back to people on a weekend. So yeah, you have the freedom to pick and choose when you work and things like that, but it also— there is so much more involved behind the scenes as well than if you were employed by someone.

Well, there's a really direct correlation between doing the work and getting paid.

Correct, yes, yeah.

You need to manage that.

Yeah, yeah, that can be tough and it's very difficult to learn that at the beginning, I would say. At the very beginning you just want to take all the work on and please everyone, but then at the cost of yourself because you then get very tired, you get overwhelmed. You can't really keep on top of all the work that comes in, but you just, you're self-employed, you're greedy, you want all of the work, but it's just finding coping mechanisms to manage that really.

How do you kind of get that balance between, 'cause like the work is coming in, you got a new customer.

Yeah.

And then you're not sure whether you want to say no, 'cause you, yeah, 'cause in the future you don't know, like next month you don't know how much work you're going to get.

Correct, yeah.

So how do you kind of like balance that between your like, and not taking over like your personal life?

Honestly, I'm still trying to work that out. It's a very difficult balance to have. So you start with your hard boundaries. My hard boundary is that I don't work weekends. And I don't work evenings. That's like, that's my hard boundary. And you kind of have to, because I cover such a wide area of Kent, I kind of have to geographically pinpoint where people are. And if I can get to them in within the next week, then I tell them obviously, and we book it in. Or if I can't, I'm upfront and honest about it, which is one of the hardest things to do is to say to a customer, sorry, I can't get to you until, you know, next week, or—

okay, so you basically say, I'm visiting these customers in this area, correct, on that day, and you kind of move around?

Kind of, but it is very fluid. So if I have like a morning free or an afternoon free and I'm not geographically in the same area, but a job comes in that is, you know, I've just had a newborn baby, you know, the, the stories that we always get as heating engineers, um, I've got no heating, no hot water, um, it's, you know, a desperate situation, then obviously I will I will try and get to those and prioritise those people if I can do. So even though I say, you know, geographically I try to go into the same areas, but if an emergency comes in, then yeah, you have to make that decision and you have to sort of, you have to make that choice.

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And when you mention not working sort of weekends and evenings, yes, are you talking about the actual, the physical stuff, or are you including the paperwork and the admin and everything else?

No, good point. No, that is just the physical work. So me going out and being an engineer on a weekend, even though it's my hard boundary, but it's not my hard boundary when it comes to invoicing and, you know, updating the— I use Xero for my accountancy software, so I update that or I put quotes out, I get back to people. I find that when I'm not on the tools and I'm at home, I can just sort of write. Now I've got a list of people. Now I need to get back to all of these people. It's not something I feel that I can do in the van. It's almost like I have a 2 personalities, and one is I'm the engineer right now, and the other one is, oh, I'm at home now, I can become the administration person. So yeah, I lied a little bit to you when I said that that was my hard boundary, but that meant just on the tools. Just on the tools. Yeah, on the weekend.

Yeah, it's kind of like a tangent, but when you're actually on site, would you create most of the actual quote on site, or do you just kind of make notes and then you wait for the Correct, yeah, I make notes and I like to have a really big think about what I'm quoting for.

And I have ADHD, so that's why I make notes, take loads of pictures of the job, and then go home and I have to think about it. I have to make sure that I'm not impulsively saying, oh, that'll cost £200, when I haven't considered the fittings or the pipe needed to do such a thing, or what, you know, the price of the parts needed. That's why I make notes, go away, think about it, and then I'm like, okay, now I can get, list everything down in a logical way and work from there. But I do the majority of my certification and my invoicing on site. So when I'm on the job doing the job, it's very quick for me to just, you know, do the certificate and the invoice with the software. And then I can sort of forget about it in my head, knowing that the customer's got the invoice. I can sort of put a full stop after that job, which is quite, quite important for me.

So you don't have that open loop. So you're leaving the job site. CD11, whatever, is done. And then you've got your invoice done as well.

Yes.

So, okay, so, 'cause otherwise you have all of these open loops building up during the day.

Which is not good for an ADHD brain, 'cause it kind of like—

I don't think it's good for anyone.

No, yeah, yeah, definitely. So it is very nice to have that sort of full stop. The only open-ended thing I have in the way that I work is if they ask me to quote for something, I then feel with my brain, I need to go home and think about it, make sure I've got all the prices correct. And then get back to them at a later time.

Yeah, because it's— it is tricky, like the cost of materials and stuff is changing, you know, every time.

Every time I order stuff, yeah, it does change. Yes, it's very annoying. I have to keep going back, even when it comes to boiler parts. So, um, you know, flow switches or switches or, you know, whatever you, you work on. Every time I go back to the, to the place that I order them from, it's a different price every time. And then there's a different margin, there's a different price to the customer. So yeah, I, I do, but I appreciate that because it makes go away and think about the job a little bit more rather than people tying me down to a price then and there when I'm there in person. Yeah, it's sort of given me like, oh well, I just need to double-check the prices of materials and then I can get back to you. And it gives me that time to, you know, not make a mistake, cuz I've made a fair few of those.

Okay. Yeah, along the journey it does need to be balanced. You don't, you, you don't want to, um, forget something and then you actually lose money on the, on the job.

Yes, which has happened, but that's how you learn.

Hmm. Yes.

Yeah.

Indeed. How did you actually get into— because you predominantly focus on oil.

Mm-hmm. Yes, I'm only qualified for oil. Yes.

And was it kind of by choice that you kind of got into this profession or—

No.

Or is it kind of like accident?

Oh, huge accident. So originally I was meant to be a marine biologist.

Okay, yeah, yeah, there's a gap between these two.

Yeah, there's a little bit of a gap between the two, yes. Um, so I always wanted to be a marine biologist when I was younger. Um, I, I was of that generation where people told you, you can go and do anything you want. And so I was like, I want to be a marine biologist. So I went to university and I studied marine biology and I got a degree in it. And then I very quickly realised when you're out there physically doing the job that it's a very unpaid sort of, not very well-paid job. You do it because you love it. And I then had to make a decision in myself. Do I have no money but do the job that I love? Or do I try something else which gives me more money to buy a house, go on holidays, you know, live, that sort of thing.

Yeah, basics.

Basics, I would say now, and find a job that I don't really love. This was before I discovered oil boilers and being self-employed, because obviously I love that. And that's the decision and the conversation I had to have with myself, which was quite difficult. I always say it was a high cloud to fall off because as a sort of a millennial, you're sort of told, oh, you can do what you want. You can, you know, you want to be a marine biologist? Yeah, go for it. And the reality is completely different because life requires money. And if you want a house, if you want a mortgage, if you want children, if you want a holiday, you have to have Unfortunately, you have to have money to do that.

Well, you kind of need like that kind of that nice balance, something that you love, something that pays, you know, something.

Yeah.

And also within your, you know, that suits your capabilities and—

Correct.

So if you kind of get that nice balance, but yeah, it's—

It's difficult.

It's like a chair with only one leg or something like that.

It is, yeah, and you're constantly balancing on it. But I think it was very obvious from a young age that I was not suited for— I don't want to say stationary work, but you know, like office work, that sort of stuff. I had to be up and about and moving all the time. This is before I found out that I had ADHD. I only found out that 4 years ago, and since that diagnosis I'm like, oh, that— my life makes so much more sense now. I was always on the move. I was always working with my hands, which is very strange for a female, and I know. So that's why when I discovered this career, which I will get to in a sec, that it suited me so well because I was able to work with my hands. I was doing something completely different to any other female out there, which ticked all of my boxes, my dopamine boxes in my head. So when I discovered that marine biology was not going to really work for me, I then had loads of little jobs in Kent in the local area. I moved back home with my parents and I was in retail. I worked in a, you know, in a school for a bit and you know, and then I found an advert for someone who was training up someone to work on oil specifically, and this was brought to my attention and I was like, well, I've tried every other job out there, I might as well try this one. That was my sort of attitude at the time. My employer later on had basically developed an allergy to kerosene.

Okay, that's not gonna help.

It's not gonna help, no. So he was a gas engineer, but he also did oil, and he couldn't breathe in the fumes of oil. It made him sort of, you know, inflamed. And so he was looking for someone to train just specifically on oil. And I was 27 at the time, didn't, you know, I had a failed career in marine biology. I was like, yeah, I'll give it a go. And that was 10 years ago now.

Okay.

So it's stuck with me for that long, which is really, really nice. It just clicked with me. The whole thing just clicked with me. I was like, this is great because people ring you when they need you. and it's not something that you have to kind of go and chase because there will always be a need for heating engineers. And I was a female in a man's world, which really ticked my box, if you know what I mean. I like doing something a bit different, and this is where we are now.

And, um, what have you thought about— like, you, you stayed with oil and you didn't, um, you specialized in the oil, you didn't branch out into the gas, like, from like a— or a sole trader or limited company point of view. Has it been an advantage to just specialise with oil?

There has been, actually. People will always have the opinion that, oh, you should, you should do everything. You should have gas, you should have, you know, solar. You should— I honest to God haven't had the time to train in something else because I've been so busy with the oil side of things.

Yeah.

So when you get established as an oil engineer or an oil company that just deals with oil, neighbours talk to neighbours. Facebook talks to other, you know, Facebook and you— I just never had the time. I never had the time to—

Probably not the need.

And probably not the need. No, I was busy enough with the— just the oil work. And I do have some people— I would say I get one inquiry every 2 weeks where someone will text me or phone me and it's a gas boiler. So it doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. It's more something that I'm thinking about for my little brother Charlie, that he's young enough I mean, I'm 37 now, so for me, I'm like, do I still want to— do I want to go into gas when the future of gas is so rocky at the moment anyway? Whereas Charlie's 17, so he— I would see the benefit of him, you know, learning how to do his gas. But at the moment, he's predominantly oil, and that's what we're training him in.

So yeah, if there's enough work.

Exactly.

Yeah. And I would imagine that if you, you know, if you are specialising in one thing, you you would get a lot more efficient in it.

Yes. So we—

yeah, you have like the— when I mean efficiency, you have the parts for that, you know, where those— you know, if you tried to go too wide, you spread yourself too thin.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And that's something that we really pride ourselves on, in that we have quite a decent stock of boiler spares on the van. And the amount of times we go to a new customer and we say, oh, this part needs replacing, and the immediate response is, oh, so I'll see you tomorrow then, or I'll see you the next day. And we're like, no, we've got it on the van already, and people are shocked by that. So that's something that I'm quite proud of, that we do have quite a good stock. But as you say, if we were branched into solar, gas, air source heat pumps, and we start keeping spares for them, not only is it more of an expense on the company to have that stock sat there on the van, but also we are spreading ourselves so thin that we won't be able to give the same sort of service to, should we say, the originals, like the regular customers.

Yeah, well, the other thing is that You know, if you don't have the parts on board, you know, that would be like oil, like for my— tends to be generally slightly more remote.

Yes.

So that would be a longer trip to go get parts.

You've got the return visits, you know, all of that stuff, which is going to be more expensive for you in the long run and more expensive for the customer in the long run. So yeah, it does cost a lot of money to stock up a van on the amount of stock that you would need, but at the same time, once you're established, you start reaping the benefits of that. Where it doesn't cost you loads of fuel to go back and go and get them.

How do you actually get— in that first year, just kind of walking through, how did you actually get established?

How long have you got?

It was— How did you get your first customer? My first— So you were working for this other company, and then you kind of transitioned?

Yes, so I was working for a company, and I was training with them. I then decided to go self-employed after 2 years. After they— that company was kind of, I don't really want to say live on air, but they were making decisions that I didn't agree with and there wasn't a lot of work coming in. I think they were sort of on the way down, and I don't really like saying that in case they see me, but I didn't get that feeling that I was like safe. The good thing about this company as well is that they completely chucked me in the deep end. They gave me the phone. So if someone rung up about a broken-down boiler, it was me answering the phone. If it was me going and fixing the boiler, it was me going and servicing the boiler. And then at the end of the job, it was me invoicing for that, what I'd just done. And then on the days— I think it was, it was a Friday or a Thursday— I would be in the office making sure that people have paid.

So, so you saw the whole life cycle?

I saw the whole process. So in my head I thought, I'm already doing that. I'm already self-employed, I'm already booking my own work in, chasing up payments, you know, invoicing people. So for me, it wasn't really that big a transition. It was more just, just getting that customer base. And the way that I did that, I obviously went on Yell.com, I did all of the things that you, that you— all the classics. Facebook, the local groups on Facebook is fantastic because it was just me on my own. I didn't have massive bills at the time to pay, so I had the freedom to sort of slowly organically build the business.

So when you, when you left that role, then, then you started building your business? Yeah, because that will take, you know, you need a few customers to just break even, correct?

And I think the first year, um, I did make a profit on the first year, um, not a big one, but I did make a profit. Um, and as a sole trader, obviously your profit is your wage. So yeah, I did make something.

When you mean you, you made a profit Is that like if you were talking like an average salary, was it over and above? It was very good. So if you exclude, like if your time was free, you would say that you—

I made a profit. So my first year of trading, I made £13,000 profit, which I thought was quite good for someone starting from zero, learning everything, and then getting getting that momentum up, because it does take time. But also in the first year, you've got the cost of your van, you've got the cost of the insurance, you've got the cost of— I had my van sign written, the website, the public liability insurance. So when you set up, you do have these massive things that you've got to shell out for. Analyser, tools.

It's not just the cost, but actually working out, like, the time it takes to go find a van.

Yes.

Go and design your— what should we stick on the side of it? You know, this is time you're obviously not getting paid for, but you obviously need to do. So what is an insurance? Which one shall I get? You know, all of this stuff.

Yeah. What level do I get? There's £2 million, £5 million, £10 million. What's professional indemnity insurance? What is that? It's all about learning what that is and all the different various aspects of it. Being Oftec registered as a business, you've got to have your own sort of form that you fill in. The website. What's your company going to be called? Called. So many different— and I had, um, my ex-brother-in-law, he designed the logo for us, which is like a little flame with an H in it, and I thought that was very clever. But you know, it's all these little things that you have to sort of sort out. It's not just putting your number out there and hoping that people call you. You kind of have to make a bit of a brand.

Would you suggest, like, for people that are possibly looking to transition, yep, to actually do all of these things before they jump? And also, like, setting up like the basics of like a business bank account Yeah. That is painful and it takes longer than you think it should do.

Yes, correct. Yeah. I would say the majority of things, the majority of things you can sort out before. So, if you are planning on going self-employed, but you're still employed at the time and you're waiting for that, for that jump. For me, I made the mistake of leaving first and then starting from nothing.

Okay, so day one you sat down and you go, okay, made a list, what do I need to do?

Yeah.

Website, logo.

Pretty much, yes. I didn't even have a van. I had a car and it's like, but if you can buy those things before you make that jump, then financially it's not going to be so damning.

Yeah, well, plus it's also the time as well.

Yeah.

So because if like you order the van, you know, it takes time to actually for this stuff to come through.

It does.

Yeah.

So I would say things like the van, the analyser, a set of tools would be essential. Things like websites, public liability, things like that, that can be sorted over, over a day if you speak to the right people and the right companies. Obviously, if you like to shop around, then it will take longer. But yeah, the main, the main part of it is, is getting that van. The van is the most important thing, I would say, because that's your workhorse. Without your van, you don't— you can't go out and work. Your set of tools that you, that you need, your, your analyzer that you need. And then you start thinking about the basic stock levels that you need to go out and actually do the job, like the nozzles, the, you know, the, the different boiler parts that you can get. Yeah, it's a big commitment financially and emotionally, but once you are set up, it's really good.

I'll go and throw it in there, but yeah, definitely make sure that you put money aside for tax after your first year.

Oh yeah, that's a very important one actually.

Yes. Just a minor detail.

Yeah, yeah.

That money that's sitting in your bank account is obviously not all yours.

That is so true. And I had to— I didn't learn that the hard way. I was quite sensible because I liked to keep like a good buffer in the bank account so that if anything went wrong with the van, or if I suddenly had to pay out for XYZ, I had the money there. So yes, always have 20, at least 20% of your profit saved away.

Yeah, it's a good thing. You're easily caught out.

Definitely, yeah.

So after that first year, you were, you started to build some customers, and you just kind of predominantly got them through the Facebook groups, etc., and word of mouth. And then, and then from there, what did you kind of do marketing-wise to sort of get more customers, or was it Just purely word of mouth?

I feel really embarrassed by saying this, but I didn't really do anything. So I— the company that I used to work for, the vibes I had was correct, and they stopped trading about a year after I started being self-employed. And the beautiful thing about being female is that people remember you. So people that were customers of the old company would be like, that girl that came round, what was her name? Oh, it was Holly, wasn't it? Google Holly, oil heating engineer. My fantastic ex-brother-in-law made a fantastic website so that I would come up first on Google, and that's how they would find me. So I did actually— I was very lucky in that a lot of the old customers that I had already established a relationship with, with the previous company, found me that way, which was really nice.

Okay, that was very good.

Yeah. And I think that is a lot of it is down to the fact that I'm rememberable. Is that rememberable? Is that the word? Rememberable? I don't know if that's the right word.

I'm not—

memorable. I'm memorable.

I don't know if that's the right word, but people remember It is unique to be, because oil is kind of known to be slightly dirty, heavy.

Yes.

You know, working conditions are, you know, different from like a modern kind of—

Yeah, not nice.

Yeah, so—

Yeah, definitely unique. And that's how a lot of people found me. And to be honest, it's a really good website where people would type into Google, oil engineer Kent, or, you know, and having that— I don't want to say that nerdy person, but that techie person in the background making sure that your website website comes up. Neighbours always talk, especially when it comes to oil heating, because you are in such remote places.

They're on farms. The next—

farms, yeah, farms are the worst because they, they try and fix it themselves first. But, you know, if you don't, that's great. Facebook groups— apparently people ask on, on Facebook groups all the time, I need an oil engineer, because it's such a specific thing. And then people then say who that they— who they use. Having a decent Facebook page, having a decent social media presence really helps as well, because because when you are recommended to someone, they will then Google who you are, and then if you come up in a positive way, then that's, that's always good.

You're building that trust.

Correct, yeah. So I have a Facebook page, and I also have an Instagram account as well where I post daily what I'm up to because people find it interesting for some reason.

But, um, what do you post on there? Like, um, is it just work that you've done, or is it kind of insights?

Kind of. So the Facebook page is, is work that I've done. It's a little bit more professional, I will say. My Instagram Instagram account is more to do with what I do and me as a personality. So I'll do like funny videos every now and then where I'm being an idiot or I'm dancing in my hallway or, you know, just silly stuff because people always know me as a bit of an idiot sometimes. Um, but then at the same time I will post like an install that I'm very proud of that we've done, or I will post a video of how to change a bearing on a motor, or, you know, just it's sort of a mix match. I haven't gone down a certain route thinking this is going to be very professional and I'm going to, you know, it's just this is who I am, but this is also what I do. And some people have found it quite helpful when they've been learning about oil because there isn't that— the, the industry around teaching people about oil boilers and how to work on them is a little bit sketchy at times.

So it's not as involved as, as gas boilers, but there's less oil engineers, there's less oil boilers.

Yep, definitely. The amount of people, especially on my Instagram account— I would say my Instagram account is probably more for other plumbers and rather than just showcasing for customers— are the amount of other plumbers and heating engineers that message me and say, 'I've got this oil boiler, it's doing this, can you help me? Not really been taught how to do this.' So I, I do enjoy that part of it as well, where I'm giving advice and helping people out. So yeah, that's the social media part of it. And then every now and then customers follow me, which can be good, which can be bad, because sometimes I post like daily stories where I'm just saying how my day is, like I did this morning, saying that I was coming here. And, you know, it's just that self-employment is such a lonely place sometimes.

Well, you're in a van, you're out on the road, you know.

Exactly, yeah.

It is challenging.

And I started the, the Instagram during COVID when you are on your own all the time. So it was just nice to connect with other heating engineers that are also self-employed. And when you have a rant about a certain thing, they're like, oh yeah, I hate it when that happens. Or what software do you use? Or, you know, lots of different sort of networking opportunities, which is really nice.

You get to help each other.

Yeah.

Are you fed up with drowning in a pile of paperwork that comes with running your heating and plumbing business? Gas Engineers Software is an easy-to-use, all-in-one job management system made especially for UK heating and plumbing companies. From handling customer details to building quotes, issuing certificates, and sending invoices, Gas Engineer Software will help you save time, eliminate paperwork, and make running your business easy. Start a free trial by clicking in the link in the bio. Just for some context for our listeners, you are going on maternity leave shortly.

I am.

Um, what was your kind of thought process behind getting ready for it, and, and how is the business going to run and, you know, without you sort of full-time within it?

Mm, I'm going to be so professional when I say I've thought about it loads. I haven't. I don't think anyone, and everyone who's a parent can agree, I don't think anything prepares you for a baby or maternity. So 3 years ago, my partner Daniel retrained as an oil heating engineer to help me with just the sheer workload that I had. I found that I was very popular, I had repeat customers, keeping on top of them all and keeping everyone unsatisfied was, was a struggle. This is before Gas Engineer Software. Um, I had 3 sheets of A4 where I would write down all the jobs that I had yet to get back to people, and I had 3 sheets of paper. And my partner Daniel was living in Northampton at the time, and he was going to be moving down and starting fresh. And he was like, why don't I train to do what you do? Therefore, I can do some parts of the job like the servicing, and you can do the breakdowns. Because what I was doing was I was doing like 2 or 3 services a day, which if you're a decent oil engineer will take you an hour and a half to 2 hours, by the way. And then I was then attending all of the breakdowns afterwards, so I wasn't getting home till 7, 8, 9 o'clock at night, which isn't very balanced at all. So it was his idea to actually come down. I trained him up, he sat his OFTEC examinations, and he's, he's a fully fledged OFTEC engineer. And that was when we decided to start using the Gas Engineer software. That's when we turned into a limited company rather than just me being a sole trader. And then 3 years we've been building that since then. So in terms of the maternity, it was a bit of an easier transition to think about because I still had Daniel to go out and do the work. Someone that lived with me and could take the phone if I couldn't answer the phone. And that is the whole reason behind Charlie as well, my little brother that's joined us as a trainee. So that, I mean, the timing is a little bit off because I'm going on maternity in a couple of months, or this month. I don't even know what day of the week it is.

I don't think you get much choice for those things, by the way.

I'm starting to struggle with work now, so having that support network around you and having those things set in stone is, is so important. And I wouldn't be in this position if I didn't have those.

Yeah, but the workload for them is going to jump up massively.

Massively, yes. Especially because I'm due in the middle of November, which is our busiest time.

Have you thought about having, like, another oil engineer join the company for a period of time?

Um, no. I'm a bit too much of a control freak. I do have acquaintances and friends that I found via Instagram, if I'm honest, that are local. And if Daniel's really, really busy or if Charlie's really, really busy and they can't get to someone, I do have friends that I can call upon where they can go and do the job.

Okay, you can just say, "Can you help us out with this one?" Correct, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

And that's more of a, like a colloquial sort of friendship.

Yeah.

Where it's like, you know, you can go and sort this job out, you collect payment from the customer, but there's that understanding that you're not going to poach my customer or, you know.

Yeah.

And I find that my customers are extremely understanding and very excited for me as well, because I've been self-employed for 8 years and some of my customers have known me since I started, so 10 years ago. And now I'm pregnant, they're like— I feel like they're along for the journey with me, some of them as well, which is really, really nice.

So, getting like another engineer in to be part of the company would be a different kind of feel as opposed to just saying, "Can you help out?" Correct, yeah.

When you take someone else on, you've got to pay them a fair salary and you've got to— which is a huge expense. When you're already paying for an apprentice/trainee and you've got your partner working with you, and then you've got the general business, vans, insurances and all that stuff, and then you've got to supply them, you know, depending on how you do it, you've got to supply them with a van, there's the cost of that, you've got to supply them with an analyser, you've got to supply them with tools, stock. Yeah, it gets a little bit expensive at that point, and considering it's just me stopping work, I didn't want to create such a big financial burden on the company, so— okay.

Yeah, because you've got the expenses really jumping up.

Correct.

And also I would say that from your customer's point of view, it's a different kind of experience.

Correct, yes.

If they're expecting you to come as opposed to somebody else coming.

Which is something that my partner's had to really— he's been exposed to what I term reverse sexism. People have booked Hollis Heating Services and Daniel turns up and they go, oh, what are you doing here? We were expecting a girl to turn up or a woman to turn up. And he's like, oh no, that's my partner. And then they sort of warm up after that. But which is quite an important thing I've had to learn to say on the phone when people book in a service. I say, "Just to let you know, my partner Daniel does the servicing. Is that okay? Are you okay with a male engineer?" Which is something which is so odd to people in the industry that they never have to ask that question because they just assume a man is turning up.

Because if you think about that question the other way around.

Yeah.

If you said there's a female coming out.

Is that okay? Okay.

Is that okay? It would be— it wouldn't go down very well.

It wouldn't. No, but it's— I do appreciate that a few of my customers, especially the elderly ladies that are on their own, Daniel's very charming and he does win them over. He's got a way with the customers. But I do understand that there are certain ones that like a female engineer.

Yeah, would prefer it.

Yeah, would prefer it. Fair enough. You know, have past trauma, I'm not sure. But yeah, there are certain people that they want Holly to turn up because she's a female. Strange, but the way that it is.

I don't know, I kind of see the point. Like, if they're living somewhere slightly isolated—

Correct, yeah.

Um, they don't have that support network around them.

Yeah, yeah, there is that sort of level of trust, which I don't like. Well, obviously I don't abuse it because I'm a nice person, but it makes me feel a little bit awkward saying that because it's— yeah, it's, it's a shame that men don't get that same automatic trust because there have been, you know, bad tradespeople in the past.

I'm sorry, but they've all been men, but Yeah, but it's also reflective of, you know, the workforce and, you know, it's not because they're male or female.

No.

Yeah.

It's because they're just—

Like 99% of the workforce is male and the chances are if it's going to be—

If something's going to go wrong, a man's going to be there because it's 99% of you. Yeah. I just feel really awkward saying that because I don't really, I don't really identify as a feminist or anything like that. I just like doing this job because it suits my personality and my neurodivergence as well. Yeah, I don't like to be like, oh, I'm gonna burn my bra or anything like that.

But it's a factual thing, you know, you were female and then there are males.

Yeah.

Some people prefer it one way or another. It's just a preference.

It's just a preference sometimes, yes. But yeah, in a nutshell, I wouldn't be where I am without the support network around me that I have. So if you ask me that question and I would still be a sole trader on my own, I don't know what I'd say to you. Whether I would be exploring the idea of being a mum, whether I'd feel that I was Do you know what I mean? I don't— because I've got the support network that I have, I'm like, okay, now I feel like I'm ready to embark on a different chapter and I can move on with my life slightly in a different way.

Yeah, well, if you were a solitaire, it would be, you know, incredibly challenging.

Yeah, everything being on you.

And with a baby, you know, there's a learning process. We have twins ourselves, and yeah, it's a Quite a steep learning curve.

Do you have any advice for me then when it comes to the newborn stage?

I don't know, I've never done— we've never had like a singleton, so like a single baby, so we don't know.

It's the same but twice the work, I would have thought, with twins.

Well, for twins you have, um, that they're always premature, and in the beginning we were, um, it was taking what, um, 2 hours to feed them, and then we would— so we're basically 2 hours feeding them and then switching over. So we just—

it was a bit like painting the Golden Gate Bridge when you finish, without sleep. Without sleep? Yeah, that sounds wonderful.

Yeah, it was through COVID, so we were a little paranoid at the time as well.

Oh God, yeah, that must have been really tough.

Yeah, so it will be a change. It's not something you can explain.

I've also heard this.

Yes, so it's, you know, it's one of the hardest things but also the best things you can do.

Okay, all right, I look forward to it.

Yeah, enjoy. Thank you very much for coming on the show. I really appreciate your coming on and your insights.

Thank you.

And it was Holly, uh, from Holly Heating Services based in Kent. Thank you.

Thank you very much for having me.