Will Gas Engineers Lose Their Jobs To Heat Pumps? w/ John Vinter

I think the future is heat pumps, and yeah, as an industry we've got to be ready for this. There are very few inspections where we encounter problems with the installation of the heat pump. It's my opinion that actually it's simpler than a gas or an oil boiler. CPS heat pump installation, I think for the business, a lot of opportunities there. There's a good profit margin on it. When a customer goes to MCS looking for a registered company, then your company will be there, and it does generate you know, business for the company. So I think it's a good move.

This is the Field Rocket podcast. I'm your host, Tullik Priest, and today we're joined by John Vinter. John works at Oftec as an inspection service manager and has been in the industry for over 40 years. Welcome to the show, John.

Thank you.

Heat pumps are a more environmentally friendly heating solution, but they haven't won everyone over yet. Today we're going to be talking about heat pumps from the perspective of Oftec. Should you get trained? And how the inspections work? And we'll answer these questions and more. So why should people care about this conversation?

I think, I think the future is heat pumps. The future is renewables. It's clearly the way we're going. It's a hot topic with global warming, and yet as an industry we've got to be ready for this.

But why do you think it's the future?

Is it purely from the environmental point of view, or is it a I think yes, the environmental point of view, um, it's any fossil fuel burning now is a no-no. And I think going forward, it's only as the weather patterns change, uh, net zero is going to become a bigger and bigger issue. And I think heat pumps are here to stay. Certainly at OFTEC, we've noticed a big take-up among technicians with heat pumps. So, uh, yeah, it Certainly looks like the future.

And if you're in a Victorian house?

Well, yes.

With the cracks in the floor, will it work? Is the point I'm getting to, I guess.

I think when you look at, you know, solutions for net zero, particularly in the heating industry, the phrase that comes to mind is the man who only has a hammer sees every problem as a nail. And I think heat pumps are a solution. They work very well for well-insulated houses, for new builds. As you say, older properties, Victorian properties, cottages out in the middle of nowhere that's got single brick walls, then there has to be other solutions as well. And certainly at OFTEC, one of the things we've been pushing with government is HVO, hydro-treated vegetable oil, as a substitute for kerosene, which greatly reduces the amount of carbon and is not as expensive as putting a heat pump in.

Could you tell us a bit more about it? It's not something I've come across.

Biofuel, in effect. There have been— we've run some pilots on it, particularly down in Cornwall. There's a village where we've got a school running on it, domestic property, even an Aga. For those of you who know about an oil-fired Aga with its vaporizing burner, we've even run that on HVO. And the tests have been really, really encouraging. Very good. The appliances are reliable. Conversion is not too expensive. I mean, I think you'd be looking at between £500 to £1,000 to convert your oil boiler to run on HVO. But there needs, there needs to be, the government need to get behind it is what I would say. And again, it's not a, it's not a one-fits-all solution. I think for particular properties and for those people who are in fuel poverty and perhaps can't afford a £15,000 heat pump, but you can afford to put HVO in, that's a really good solution. And OFTEC have been lobbying government to make government aware that this is a potential solution for off-grid houses, because I think there's a tendency to only think in terms of gas and that everybody's got a gas boiler, when we know there is an off-grid sector and a lot of people out there, and a lot of people in rural areas in fuel poverty as well. And we need to think about those future people and what a net-zero-friendly solution looks like for them. So not just heat pumps. Heat pumps are a big part of it. I'm a great believer in heat pumps, but there's also HVO. There's other— there's a lot of things in our toolkit that can help us in that journey towards net zero.

Yeah. And HVO, the— when you, when you're actually moving or converting a boiler, is it the nozzles? What, what else?

Yeah, it's really all the rubber parts. It's the seals on the, on the filters need replacing. Yes, you need a different size nozzle. The combustion characteristics are different. The fuel pump would need to be changed. But yeah, all of these things and the kero taken out of the can, the oil tank, and HVO put in. But it's, it's doable. And we've proved that this process in our trials, we proved that this process is viable and that HVO is viable and there's enough supply and the cost. Well, that's the, the supply comes, doesn't it, when there's a demand.

Yeah.

And this is where the tax situation for HVO needs to be looked at. At the moment, it's more expensive than kerosene, so people are not going to go for that option. But the whole, the whole, that's where government comes in and where government need to think about HVO. And that's where Oftec are really representing the, you know, the off-grid industry and encouraging government to think more broadly.

And are there any other solutions out there?

Um, well, yeah, I think there's, uh I've seen electric boilers that will actually store, um, very, very hot water in them, and they charge up off peak. But we'll be— I mean, the thing about a heat pump is the temperature of the radiators is lower than an ordinary boiler.

Um, what temperature is it, around 60 or something?

No, it's 45 to 55 is the sort of—

and a gas, just for reference, gas can be up 70, 80.

So people come in, they switch their boiler on, and immediately the radiators are lovely and hot. With a heat pump, you've to have it running 24/7 and gently heating the house over that time. Um, so it's, it's a completely different mindset for the customer. Um, and technicians are telling the customers this, that you've, you've got a heat pump, it's different. It's, it's not— you're not just going to walk in and everything's going to be, you know, toasty toasty hot. Um, so yeah, there are, there are other solutions out there. I mean, in the gas world, they're talking about hydrogen, or they were I don't know whether that is still going on. So, there are other solutions. And I think, as an industry, we need a multi-solution approach, bearing in mind that the customer wants to be as carbon neutral as possible. And the customer also wants to be able to afford to heat their house. And that's a big thing, particularly with the price rises we've seen recently. Um, that needs to be taken into consideration, doesn't it?

Yeah, well, from the customer's point of view, you know, if you were to install, say, a heat pump, it's a huge investment.

Yes.

And then you have that kind of nagging doubt, am I actually going to be warm?

Yes, you will be, um, if the heat pump is installed correctly. They're a brilliant technology and you will be warm, but it's all in the design stage of the heat pump. Just to explain a little bit about heat pumps, there are 2 schemes that Ofttec run. One is a competent person scheme, which means you can fit a heat pump and you can sign it off with building control in the way that you would with an oil boiler. The same things apply. You, you need to do your heat loss calculations carefully and properly and design the system properly. There's another scheme we do which is MCS, which many of the folk watching this will be aware of, the Microgeneration Certification Scheme, which allows the customer then to get funding from the government towards the cost of that heat pump. That scheme is more demanding on the business. It requires a quality management system from the company, and it really does drill down into the fitting of a heat pump and make sure that that's fitted absolutely right, the design calculations are right, and that the customer's getting a really good outcome. It also requires the company to have indemnity policy in place, an insurance-backed guarantee. So if the company goes out of business and there is a problem with the customer, being warm enough, uh, and it's a fault of the company that put it in, they can get it fixed. Rather like you have a fence guarantee with your windows that covers you, it's the same sort of thing that companies have to buy if you're MCS registered. So for, for consumers, I think if you're going to an MCS company, you're— yeah, you're guaranteed this is going to work, and it's going to be fitted by people who've been inspected, who are competent, who know what they're doing, and you're getting a really good product at the end of it.

Okay, and like from a practical point of view, you've got say a gas boiler is coming to the end of its life and you've got, you've got your radiators etc. everywhere. Like what kind of things would change? You obviously can't just throw in a heat pump.

No, you can't. No.

Like when you mentioned design, like what does that entail?

Well, you, your design, because you've got a lower temperature coming out of the heat pump you're going to need a greater surface area on radiators in order to achieve the desired temperature in there. So it will involve changing radiators, putting bigger radiators in. It will involve heat loss calculations that, you know, is room by room. Is how hot is this room got to be, right? How do we deliver that? And the customer needs to be made aware of that. I mean, there are other advantages. I have disabled children. My radiators are already at a lower temp because, you know, you don't want scald them. So actually, I think it's a better way to heat your house is through lower temperatures, but that needs to be taken into account. Yes.

Yeah. And running costs right now, is it comparable to gas? Is it cheaper than gas?

The, the latest thing I saw was that it is comparable to gas, but obviously you do need a well-insulated building. As you said, it won't suit a building with very, you know, a single brick wall and, and not— it needs to be right. And a qualified MCS contractor tractor will be able to advise the customer and we'll get it right. So yeah, okay.

And then from the, the engineer's point of view, like if you were a gas engineer at the moment and you're kind of considering this, is there more risk to the business to install heat pumps?

Um, no, I don't think there is. You get properly trained to do it. Oftec offer a heat pump training course. There was funding for that from the government, so last year. Who knows what will happen this year, we've got a new government in, but there and a lot of technicians. That was a very popular course. A lot of technicians took that course and got themselves, you know, trained in heat pump installation. It's like anything, it's like any kind of change in the technology. Yep, you've got to get your head around it, you've got to be properly trained on it. But, you know, the guys we're seeing, yeah, are good competent technicians. They understand heating systems and they understand the requirements, you know, going in with with a heat pump.

And do they— are you seeing— so there was quite a few technicians got trained. Are you actually seeing more heat pumps being installed?

Yes, we are. MCS is a big growth area for Offtech. We are seeing companies join us, both existing companies who've got oil and want to add the heat pump scope to their business because they see opportunities out there, and also completely new companies are coming and joining us for heat pumps. I mean, we're seeing— I was talking to a guy a couple of weeks ago who just does new build work, and MCS is now becoming a requirement from big building contractors like your Persimmons and your Bovis. They want MCS registered companies doing it. So it's even coming in on the new builds now, and heat pumps are becoming a part of that, which makes sense. These houses are built to modern insulation standards, ideal for a heat pump installation. Yeah.

And do you know if the profit margins are higher on a gas or a heat pump?

I would think— I don't know because I don't run a business that installs, but, um, I don't think guys would be getting into it unless the profit margin was good. So I suspect that as a business model, this is a good area to get into, but I can't comment because I'm not in— I'm not head of a business, I'm inspections manager.

Yeah, that's a slightly different field. The government have a goal of, what, 600,000 Yeah. Um, boilers by 2028, I think it is. Um, how— I, I don't know where we are at the moment, whether we're tracking towards it, but how reasonable do you think it is?

Um, I think if you aim at nothing, you will always get there. And I think if we're going to deal with, um, you know, net zero, we're going to have to have ambitious targets to get there. I do feel that the scheme needs to be as, as simple as possible You know, the funding scheme from the government to encourage people to take up heat pumps needs to be as simple as possible while remaining robust. So I don't think making that complicated does anybody any favors. So simplicity, easy to understand with the funding, and put the funding there because I think that does encourage folk to, you know, take the plunge and put a heat pump in.

I'm kind of putting you on the spot, but do you know if the previous funding schemes actually got used?

I believe so, yes.

Okay, so that's good.

Take cover again. I mean, this is, this, this is actually dealt with at a much higher level than my pay grade in Oftec, but anecdotally, yes. It's not something I've got to my fingertips. I'm sort of more down with the inspections and looking at how heat pumps are put in. But anecdotally, yes, uh, you know, funding was taken up. And I say we're seeing lots of interest from businesses and lots of businesses coming on board with the MCS scheme. To businesses thinking about it, I think, yeah, do your homework and recognize that MCS require you to have what's called a quality management system in place, which is really a system of how you're going to treat your customers. So it's all about good outcomes for the customer. It's all about, for instance, when you make a contract with the customer, You've told them what heat pump you're going to put in. You've told— you've provided the datasheet for that heat pump so they know what they're getting in terms of it. You're supplying them with heat loss calculations, so this is how much heat you're losing, these are the figures. So the customer is informed, and all the way through it's about the quality management system, is about how you document how you've dealt with the customer, what pack you're leaving at the end when you fitted it. So it is a lot more involved than just a simple CPS heat pump installation. There's more there, but there is also, I think, for the business, a lot of opportunities there. There's a good profit margin on it, and, um, you know, you're— when a customer goes to MCS looking for a registered company, then your company will be there, and it does generate, you know, business for the company. So I think it's a good move for companies to move into that.

Yeah, and I— well, from the customer's point of view, it also, you know, good to just— that structure, etc. Yeah, would be really good. But when they sort of moving on to the inspections themselves, yeah, but what kind of things do you kind of typically see that, um, you know, are more challenging for companies?

Um, there are very few, uh, inspections where we encounter problems with the installation of the heat pump. It's my opinion that actually it's simpler than you know, a, a gas or an oil boiler, because you haven't got to worry about ventilation, you haven't got to worry about the flue, you've got to worry about the clearances around the unit, and you've got to worry about where the condensate goes, and you've got to worry about the noise of the unit and how close that is to, you know, habitable rooms. Um, yeah, but I mean, but you have the heat calculations. Yes, you have the heat calculations to do as well. But when we're— I mean, yes, and we audit those when when we go out to site. But then you've got the heat calculations when you fit a boiler, so you know, the heat loss—

okay, so it's not, it's not like a stricter requirements than from gas?

Uh, yeah, I mean, there are— the heat loss requirements are that there's a room-by-room heat loss calculation, which is a little bit, uh, more involved with it. So in that sense, yes. Um, but it's good practice to do room-by-room anyway. It gives you a good view of what you know, the heat loss of the building is. Yeah.

So, so if you were transitioning from gas to heat pumps, it wouldn't be that— it's not a whole new—

I think for a technician, I think it's totally doable. Yes, there is more work involved. I mean, if you're the kind of technician who's putting in gas combi boilers all day long and it's very simple and it's very straightforward, that's fine. Then you might find the transition into heat pumps challenging. But my advice is to do the course. You, in order to be able to fit a heat pump, you need a Level 3 qualification in heat pumps. Now, a Level 3, there's some really good training out there from manufacturers, um, and really good packages that, you know, if you're fitting a Grant or a Mitsubishi or one of the manufacturers, you can go on their course and get a real understanding of their product, and that's great, but it's not a Level 3 qualification. And you need a Level 3 qualification in order to join a competent person scheme or to go and fit under MCS. So that's very important. So that is an area where technicians do sometimes stumble. They think, you know, I've done a course, you know, with one of the manufacturers, really good, uh, really went into depth. Yeah, but it's not a Level 3, so it's not acceptable.

Okay, so I would imagine the, the manufacturer's courses, here's the product, more of like a technical point of view. Yeah. And, and the, the, the parts that could be missing is more the regulations.

Yes, absolutely. Uh, but I mean, the manufacturer's courses are very good. There's because no one knows their product better. And particularly as the level of, um, yeah, the level of software in it, um, these days, uh, you know, with programming the actual units, um, and weather compensation and knowing how to get in. I mean, these courses can be really good at getting that background and getting the absolute best out of the heat pump for the customer. So I'd always say manufacturers' courses are great, but just be careful that the course you've done meets the requirements, you know, if you're coming on board for heat pumps.

And anything else the engineer should be sort of conscious of or aware of?

Right, um, yeah, I mean, it's— there's a lot of paperwork with MCS work, and I think that can come as quite a shock, um, for companies that there's— yeah, there's a lot of requirements. Um, so again, as we said with, with all firing equipment, you'll be sent an audit plan. This is what we're going to do when we come out to see you. Really read that closely. That'll tell you which pieces of paper we're going to require. We'll go out to site, and like I say, I do— as inspections manager, I see an awful lot of inspections, and the site side of it I don't think is anything to be worried about for the guys. There's very few faults that we're picking up on site. Guys are reading carefully and doing it carefully, and we're— I'm very happy with the standard that we get back from our technicians. Yeah, yeah.

So the more challenges is around the paperwork side?

Yeah, design and paperwork is where the challenges lie in heat pumps. Yes.

And when you say design, what's the challenges around the design?

Um, it's making sure, um, that that heat pump is going to work properly. I mean, you may need to install a buffer tank, um, so the heat pump can put, uh, its, uh, its heat into that before it then heats the building. You've got to really think about the sizing of radiators the pipework that's already there, is that enough? Do we need to up the size of that? There are design questions that need to be asked before you— as you say, you can't just rip out a gas boiler, shove a heat pump in, and expect it to work. It most likely won't.

There's quite a bit of, um, yeah, thought up front to it.

Yes. Yeah. But again, we find that the technicians are— the, the days of sort of the plumber with a pair of grips, uh, sort of bib and braces there, are gone. Um, today's heating engineer technically savvy, far more up with regular— I mean, I started in the industry in 1978, and, you know, heat loss calculation, what's that? It was rule of thumb or a back of a fag packet. I mean, we've come an awful long way, and the guys today are far more technically savvy than they ever were back when I started. And that's good, that is really good. We've moved on as an industry.

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What other trends? Um, great deal more professionalism, um, than there ever was. Um, yeah. And, um, well, I mean, yes, in some ways technology has stayed exactly the same. I mean, you look at a gas cooker, it's just the same sort of thing I used to do when I first started with what was Eastern Gas. But then you look at boilers and how the technology has really moved on. And that's been driven by a desire for a more efficient boiler and a boiler that doesn't produce as much carbon. So I think that's what's going to be the driving force in the future, is reducing carbon, and that's where the developments are coming. I think heat pumps have really improved now. You know, everybody thinks heat pumps are a new technology. I saw my first heat pump in the 1980s. I worked for a company and my boss had a heat pump. They are not new technology. They've been around a while. It's just suddenly we've really realized that this would be a solution to our problem with, with net zero. So yeah, why didn't you think we kind of took them up earlier?

Because, you know, in theory, on paper, they're a lot more efficient.

I mean, we weren't so worried about burning stuff in the past. I mean, in the 1980s, yeah, you know, we burnt carbon fuel, whether it was gas, whether it was kerosene. Now we're concerned about how much carbon we're producing, and that is a solution for that. But the efficiency of the heat pumps has gone right up. They're far more efficient than they would have been back in the 1980s and cheaper to run than they would have been back there. And I think very much so, in the past it's always been driven by cost, but now it's cost and it's also, you know, the amount of carbon This is a new thing coming in at the moment.

What are your kind of thoughts over the next kind of like 10 to, you know, sort of a longer time frame, let's say 50 years? Like, like what kind of changes do you think we'll see?

Um, well, it's crystal ball gazing, which is always, um, dangerous. I, I do think that the heat pumps are going to be a big part of the future.

Do you think all houses would have heat pumps?

No, like I say, I think, I think you're good. You're going to have other solutions like HVO, like hydrogen. I think there's going to be a balance of solutions out there. So do you think hydrogen is going to make it into the domestic? I don't know, is the honest answer to that. That's the gas industry. Yeah, I don't know. I, my last information about that was sort of 7, 8 years ago when a friend of mine was, was working with National Grid on it and said they had really real problems with pilot burners. The new stuff will work great on it. But I think with the Pilot they had problems on. So I don't know where they are with hydrogen on that, but if they can get green hydrogen, great. You know, it's another— and it's never a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket with one technology. I think it's good to have multi— different options, different things in your toolkit. Like I say, if all you've got is a hammer, then every problem becomes a nail, and we, we force heat pumps into places where we really shouldn't, you know.

Yeah, because at the moment the gas boilers are— I don't know the percentage, but it must be quite high of the houses.

Yes, oh, absolutely. Gas is what customers expect when they, when they're buying a property. If it's on the gas grid, they'll expect to see a little white box there and a little thermostat I can turn up. So yeah, that is where the vast majority of houses in this country are heated. Yeah.

Okay, well, thank you very much for your time.

It's been fun.

Thank you. It's been very informative. But yeah, I appreciate you coming on.

Thank you.

And it's John from, um, Offtech.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.