Women In The Trades: What We Can Do Better w/ Anna Moynihan

We're not looking at the ability here because we know that these tradeswomen are all just as qualified as their male counterparts. This is more down to just, you know, normalising women in trade, lifting them up, giving them an option. On top of that, really, like, the UK is— we've got a bit of a problem on our hands when it comes to the amount of tradespeople that we actually have, whatever their gender. We're ignoring 50% of the population by kind of not promoting women in trade and getting them into the trades.

We're kind of acknowledging that, you know, there is a challenge there. We need to support But people might not actually know what the next steps are. I guess the question is, you know, what could people do individually, not just kind of waiting for the whole, you know, like actual companies itself to change. This is the Field Rocket podcast. I'm your host, Taliq Priest, and today we're joined by Anna Moyahan, and Anna is the co-founder and CEO of Tasker. Tasker is an online booking system that links Tradeswoman with customers all over the country. Welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

Today we're going to be talking about women in the trades. Why should people care about this conversation?

I think this conversation really matters because we're solving a problem that impacts lives across the country. Diversity inclusion in traditionally male-dominated space is a really big issue.

And why, why is that an issue? Like, why does the sex of the person that's fitting a boiler or, or fixing your heater, you know, make a difference?

The trades industry is a really outdated industry. So if you look at the sort of numbers of women in trade at the moment, only around 5% of tradespeople in the UK are actually female. On top of that, really, like, the UK is We've got a bit of a problem on our hands when it comes to the amount of tradespeople that we actually have, whatever their gender. We're ignoring 50% of the population by kind of not promoting women in trade and getting them into the trades. And it's something that's sort of just been assumed is okay. If you look at any other field and the number of women in that field was so low, you'd probably be quite surprised. But for some reason in the trade industry, it's kind of assumed that that's okay, that it's it's fine for it to be male-dominated.

Do you think that it's a, like, the challenge is it's by choice, that females are not choosing, or, you know, there's kind of other, you know, it's not kind of been seen as a viable option, or like, why do you think, you know, we have this situation?

I think it's a number of factors. I think primarily, you know, just from a young age, little girls are given sort of unicorns and princess dresses, little boys are given toolkits. And cars. And, um, you know, that's something that I think, you know, this generation of parents are addressing. But, you know, there's still plenty of children out there that don't sort of have a diverse range of toys as they go through school. Um, if they're not maybe going on to university, it tends to be that, that women or young sort of school-leaving women are encouraged into sort of more female trades, things like cosmetology and hairdressing and childcare, which are all obviously fantastic careers, but their male peers are sort of encouraged into skilled trades like, you know, electrical, plumbing, heating and gas, and they get paid a significant amount more than the female sort of focus trades. I think the sort of number is around, I think, women sort of, women working in sort of like childcare and cosmetology stand to lose around nearly a million pounds in lifetime earnings compared to their male peers who sort of move into skilled trades. And so, you know, it starts from really early doors, and then once you actually, you know, get to the point where you're trained up, where you want to train, if you are a female and you are, you would like the idea of of working in skilled trades, there's loads of hurdles to overcome. The finding a course where you're not the only woman, um, being, you know, being accepted, um, by your peers, finding a job after that, being— finding training, and people sort of just assuming that you're not, you know, you're on reception, or, um, that you're doing again one of those kind of softer skills. Um, so like the hurdles are just continuously there. There's no Ultimately, you want to see people like you where you're working. You want to, especially when you're young and you're starting off in your career, and walking into, you know, walking on the job and being the only female is actually quite intimidating, regardless of the motives of the other tradespeople. And so, like, one thing that we're doing with Tasker is trying to kind of normalize that, like, normalize women in trade, and give these kind of younger women who are coming up through the ranks some people to look at and to aspire to.

So you kind of have like the social pressures, um, like society norms, etc. And then you've got the lack of role models, and then you've also got, you know, the practicalities or, or possible perceptions. Like, if you're— I would imagine if there's a range of apprentices who are looking for roles, um, you know, that might put you at a disadvantage. Is that what you're saying?

I think we've definitely had a lot of stories around that. We've heard stories of apprentices looking for well, or like, you know, trainees or looking for apprenticeship, apprentice roles, or, you know, to just gather experience. And every time they phoned, you know, whatever trade company they're looking for the experience with, they sort of asked, you know, who you calling for? There was like one trade woman told us, like, the people repeatedly asked who she was calling for. Was she calling for her son? And she was like, no, I'm calling for me. And she, you know, she tries hundreds and eventually she ends up getting trained up by a fellow female plumber. But finding that female plumber was actually really tricky, you know, that kind of exposure that, you know, when you're looking at kind of traditional platforms where you're finding tradespeople, there is really a sort of really small representation of women on there. So it's difficult, it's difficult find them until Tasker, obviously.

Okay, so it's kind of, it's kind of like an interesting kind of mix. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the, the background of Tasker?

It was a few years ago, so sort of end of 2020 and start of 2021. We were, myself and my husband, were doing some work on our house, and I sort of decided that I was going to be the one that had to find the tradespeople that we needed. And so I, we didn't have anybody in our network, we didn't have any kind of referrals from Chinese because we were kind of new to the area. So, um, I was using online directories, um, to read reviews, email tradespeople, um, and basically chase them until they came to our house to have a look at the job that needs to be done. Um, and I found— well, firstly, I found that process a bit irritating because I— so the onus was on me as a customer. And then when I did get the tradespeople around to our house, who were all men, because I, when I was looking at all of these platforms, no women were sort of visible to me, and I hadn't, so I hadn't even considered it. So there was definitely some unconscious bias there. But, um, anyway, they sort of all arrived, all of them arrived at our house and immediately would start speaking to my husband and not to me. And I just found it really frustrating because I'd obviously been their sort of main port of call. So I wondered if I'd have a different experience as a female and went online just sort of assuming that there would be something like Tasko that would represent women in trade because there'd just been no representation for them anywhere else, any of the kind of like main players I'd been looking at, and there just was nothing and I couldn't believe it. And so the more I kind of dug into the data around women in trade and, you know, what kind of lucrative and sort of aspirational career actually can be and how flexible it is if you're working for yourself and how actually perfect it is for women who tend to be the carers and obviously are, um, you know, mothers. And, uh, yeah, the idea kind of came from there and we sort of, yeah, we started building it and getting some smaller rounds of investment to build the product and start building our community of tradeswomen.

Okay, so, and just to kind of jump back a little bit, like you spoke a little bit about being a female customer, you know, the trades people that you had around, you know, speak to your husband. Were you able to find a female sort of tradesperson to do any of the work?

We did, but it was a bit special. It was a, you know, they weren't sort of from the main platforms and directories that you would think of. We ended up going on Instagram and finding that there was actually more of a representation, like women, female plumbers and electricians that we needed. They, you know, you could use that search within Instagram to find women in your area. But I suppose one of the, basically, like, it tends to be that if you are a tradesperson, and obviously this is a massive blanket kind of assumption and rule, but You know, if you work in the trades, you're brilliant at your trade, you could, you know, you're great with your hands, you really, you know, do all the stuff I don't know how to do. You're not always brilliant at marketing yourself, and a lot of the current directories, and I keep sort of mentioning the bigger players, they work with models that mean that the people that get the most bookings, the people that have got more money, that they've been on those profiles for longer, they tend to be at the top of the pile, so they just get more and more work. The people at the bottom get less. And so, you know, obviously there's— when there's a significant amount more male tradespeople than female tradespeople, you're only really going to get served. But, um, whereas on, you know, on platforms like Instagram, we were able to dig out a few, so we were able to find them. It was just that there was no— there was no one sort of pushing women to the top of the pile and saying, do you know what, like, 'These are really great, and actually, have you even considered the fact that you've not even thought of a woman?' And it's probably not crossed your mind, all of the language we use, you know, tradesmen, handyman, like everything is, there's always an assumption that it's going to be a man. And that is something that, again, like if you look at other industries, I think like in the late '60s, the number, I think the percentage of female solicitors in the late '60s was something like 2%. 2%. Now it's 52%, and I can't imagine living in a world where there were only 2% female solicitors. It seems crazy to me, but yet for some reason, you know, again, like the trades industry, massively outdated. We just sort of— everyone seems to be okay with it, and it's never really been challenged until now.

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I think there's a wide variety of reasons as to why. I mean, if you look at our customer base, it's around 80% female, 20% male, and our customers come to us for a number of reasons. Obviously, you are male. So maybe it's just not something that we, you would, you know, you'd have that kind of like assumption that you, you'll quite happily feel comfortable with both male or female, and that's fantastic. Whether or not you, when you're searching online for, if you sort of Google, you know, plumber, um, wherever you're like, you know, wherever you live, chances are it's always going to be a man that comes up. Therefore, you're always going to book a man, and that's been, you're fine with that. If you're a woman living alone, um, you might feel more comfortable having another woman in the house. And so, you know, but you assume that there's no— actually, there's no option for that because every time you look for a plumber in your area, it's always going to be men coming up. So you just sort of, you know, grit your teeth. And you— and I'm not saying, you know, I'm not saying— and I think that we always come from the standpoint, we're not saying every man is predatory. It's not about that. It's about the fact that you just sometimes feel more comfortable with your own gender. And I think that, you know, there's definitely customers who just generally feel more comfortable. I mean, I think the majority of our customers just feel really passionate about the fact that there are still these industries out there that are so hugely dominated by men, and they want to support the women that are basically like blazing a trail within those industries. And the fact that we're giving them this option to not only just book them, but book them really easily, is sort of a no-brainer. I think, you know, and there's also, there's argument, we've had feedback around kind of like, they feel that maybe women are more communicative, they explain the problem a bit better. And on the flip side, we have people that just assume that maybe women are going to be tidier or more friendly, and that isn't always the case because these are just, these are just tradeswomen. So like, I think there's a huge reason why Uh, there's a huge variety of reasons why people would prefer a woman.

Yeah, I, I like the point that you made about, um, there's that assumption that it's going to be a man, so you don't, you don't actually think, you know, that, that there's actually a choice in there.

Yeah, absolutely. And I was the same. I mean, that's the reason Taski started. I just, it didn't even cross my mind when I first started looking that I would be looking, I could look for a woman because If you look at every other platform, there might be the token, you know, the token woman on the homepage somewhere, but I would, you know, I'd put money on the fact that out of 10 people on that, on that website for photos of tradespeople, there'll be one woman, you know. And when you are searching through those directories, you're just not given the option. And, you know, and again, like, you know, everyone has their own preferences, but there should be a choice, and that's essentially what we're giving people. I know men that would prefer a female too, like the LGBTQ community are hugely like, you know, a lot of customers from there. I mean, my husband, who's also my co-founder, like, you know, I think that traditionally a lot of tradespeople are quite macho, want to talk about footy, and my husband's not like that. He doesn't, you know, he doesn't like football, he doesn't want to talk about, he doesn't want to be a lad, and so he feels a bit more uncomfortable around a male tradesman and probably would prefer a female. So You know, a lot of it is just around that. We're not looking at the ability here because we know what these tradeswomen are all just as qualified as their male counterparts. They've been through all the same qualifications, they've got the same experience. This is more down to just, you know, normalising women in trade, lifting them up, giving them an option and recruiting more women into the trades and showing them. But you're never going to recruit more women into an industry that's completely dominated by men where they kind of quite clearly aren't very welcome, because why would they? Why would you do that? So, we're trying to make this space more enticing and show the really, you know, the really great sides of working in skilled trades, of which there are many.

So, you're showing that for customers there's an option of a female, but also from, you know, females as they're growing up, that this is a possible career path for them as well.

Absolutely. I mean, we're an impact-focused startup. That's what we kind of call ourselves. That's where we fall in the kind of world of startups. Our impact is really not on the customer side. The impact is on the tradeswomen's side. Obviously, we want to support customers, and the idea for Tasky came from us as customers. But the more we kind of looked into the world of trades, we realized the impact is, you know, really on that side of the tradeswomen and the next generation of tradeswomen coming up through the ranks. And the fact that as a country we need a significant amount more tradespeople. And, you know, ultimately, if we're just going to ignore all the women and not encourage them in, then we're stupid because we're just, we're just not going to have enough. So, um, you know, there's so many reasons why we, why, why we want to support them.

Yeah. And so what would be the, um, what's your actual goal for Tasker? What would be the, the ideal outcome?

Um, I think we've always kind of like looked at, like, sort of looked at ourselves as— I don't even know the dating app Hinge, which is basically like, I don't know what their current tagline is, but it's basically like, download the app to delete it. As in, download the app, find someone, and then you delete the dating app because you found your partner. And, you know, ultimately the ultimate goal is that, that we shouldn't be needed. And I don't think that's going to happen for a really long time. I don't know if that's gonna happen in my lifetime. But, you know, ultimately we shouldn't need a platform to bring women to the top of the trade and to normalize women in trade and to like, you know, even just have photos of women in trade. Like when we first started Tasker and we were sort of building our site and working on our brand and, you know, creating collateral and creatives and there was just nothing. Like if you look at all the stock image sites, it's like really cheesy photos of women in pink hard hats. Like fixing a sink, like you'd need a hard hat to fix a sink, but like there was no imagery of genuine tradeswomen anywhere. And so we've had to create all of our own imagery and just like stuff like that, like that should be the norm, that should be, you know, that's where we're aiming for. We don't essentially, you know, we don't want to exist because the trades should be an equal opportunities industry.

We've kind of talked about, you mentioned sort of there's kind of barriers to entry, like, um, you know, as, as you're younger, um, girls are kind of looking at the different career paths, etc. Um, when they— but you haven't, uh, what kind of happens, like, once they've actually started work? What kind of— are there any kind of barriers, or sort of are there challenges, or sort of around at that stage of it?

Yeah, sadly, I think— I mean, obviously the majority of the information we're getting is obviously through tradespeople that we work with, tradeswomen that we work with. So it's firsthand information. And I mean, if you look at kind of, let's say with customers who are kind of, you know, homeowners, because ultimately, you know, if you're a homeowner and you've got a tradeswoman, most likely is, the likelihood is you've spoken to them already, you probably sought them out. so you know who's coming to your house, and you'd probably prefer a tradeswoman. If you're booking a, you know, we've had stories of tradesmen sort of turning up to houses to do a job when they've worked for bigger companies, and, you know, the customer's not aware that they're a woman, and they turn up at the door, and the customer's like, well, who are you? Why? No, I don't want you. You're a female. I don't trust you to, you know, do the job that you're here to do. Or just genuine looks of shock, that they're female when they arrive, which I think is, again, you know, it's not great when in your day-to-day life, like, being, like, constantly turning up to people's houses and then being surprised at your gender and probably, you know, judging you based on that. I think the worst stories we've heard are from tradeswomen that have worked on commercial sites, because that is where, you know, I think that is a bit of a shark pit. You know, we've heard stories of women who've literally had to, like, they've not had toilet facilities, they've had to go and like pee in a bush because there's no toilet facilities for them. Had stories around them having to share like changing rooms with men because there's been no facilities around that. And then you look at the dynamic on those kind of sites, which are obviously quite bantery, and obviously, you know, again, this is not every single man, this is not every single tradesman, But I think on the whole, the dynamic is that they are ribbed and taken the mickey out of and questioned around their skill set because of their gender. And I think, you know, a lot of these tradesmen are just sort of used to it and they just ignore it and it's water off a duck's back and they can play along. But it is probably quite exhausting. And I think when you look at the whole picture of, you know, it's not just that day on site, it's going through their training with all of these, you know, younger men who are pretty, you know, young boys at college are probably not as, you know, as fun to work with. And then, you know, then going on to site, I think after a while it really chips away at you. And there's only a certain, it's probably like a limit of the amount of jokes that you can have at your capability because of your gender.

Even if it's water off a duck's back, you know, those kind of, if it is that kind of sort of environment, it does have an impact. It will build up.

I think so. I mean, I think it has an impact on tradesmen as well. I think there's obviously a lot of tradesmen out there that aren't massively thrilled at the idea of the constant ribbing, you know, and there's probably a lot of men out there that don't like it too. But obviously, you know, you're prime target if you're the only woman on site. Like, you know, chances are there's going to be a group of men on there that are just not going to leave you alone. And it's, yeah, it's exhausting when you're just as skilled, you know, if not more skilled depending on what you're doing, than other people. So we do find that the older tradeswomen that we work with, the ones that have reskilled later in life, they've got less tolerance, you know, as, as, you know, it comes with age, doesn't it? And they're very happy to, to put them in their place. But I think as a younger woman who's a school leaver or an apprentice, I think it's hugely intimidating when you're going through that period of your life.

Yeah, I think even if you're, if you're male, you just left school, You know, okay, you don't have the added pressure of, you know, being the only female on site, but you know, that it's not a— I would imagine it's not a fun experience. What can we as customers and sort of other tradespeople do to kind of help?

I mean, as customers, obviously consider booking a woman because— and like consider why you're booking the women as well. Is it because you want to support Is it because you feel more comfortable? And understand that to do the trades, especially— I mean, the trades we offer at Tasker are all skilled trades, so we— they have qualifications, they've been through all of the exams, they are equally qualified, uh, as equally qualified as all other tradespeople working in that trade who have been verified by a platform. Um, so, you know, consider why you're doing it, but look to— look to seek out tradeswomen and support them and understand that actually, like, they probably— I would say probably 100% got some sort of backstory as to why they appreciate customers who are welcoming and supportive of them as tradespeople. And I think, like, the world of the trades, there's a lot of work to do. And I think one thing is difficult as a founder, obviously, is I've completely focused on tradeswomen Sometimes I find it a bit tricky sort of seeing other brands sort of doing— I don't know what the equivalent is. It's basically for me, it feels a little bit like, you know, greenwashing. Like, they're sort of doing it, they're sort of popping a woman on their homepage for the sake of it, or they're profiling women for the sake of it. They're not actually kind of really embedding that into what they're doing. They're not looking to drive more recruitment around tradeswomen, and they're not looking to support funding scholarships for women to learn the trades. And I think there's a lot of work to be done within skilled trades, and there's also a lot of really great people who are working to do that too. But I do think, you know, it's not something that's going to change overnight, sadly.

Okay, and if you were a tradesperson working in a company, you can obviously possibly step in and sort of make it more balanced. Anything else that sort of, you know, people could do to kind of, you know, help out?

I suppose like there's also, you know, outside of the kind of trades, like trades platforms or trades businesses, there's also the sort of side of brands. You know, if you're looking at, you know, suppliers, but whether it's equipment or, uh, you know, clothing or PPE, things like that. Like, there's a— there's still a huge amount of work to be done, um, around making those kind of environments more inclusive. Like, you know, I— you know, we, we worked with a, with a brand recently who just launched a women's wear brand for construction, which is great, and there's a couple more out there. But it, you know, it should be that every single brand should offer both male and female clothing for working on site. And it shouldn't really be a PR exercise, it should just be the norm. The same goes for inclusivity and the environment in sort of trade suppliers. Like, I know, like, as obviously just a customer and a layman, like, I'm not a tradie, but if I go to a trade supplier to go and buy something to do some DIY, which you know, obviously I still can, I do, I still find it a bit intimidating. I think those environments have got a lot of work to do. We've had stories from tradeswomen who've gone to, and I'm not going to name names of the suppliers, but they've gone to suppliers and like the staff there have like clapped them out of the car park because they've managed to reverse their van out of the car, just out of the car park, just purely because they're female. Stuff like that. Like they, you know, if you look at the surrounding kind of area, the sort of surrounding businesses and platforms and suppliers that work with the trades, like they all kind of need to take a look at how they're supporting women and including women in what they do as well.

Yeah, because I kind of feel like if we're kind of acknowledging that, you know, there is a challenge there we need to support, but people might not actually know what the next steps are, like especially like to actually move like a whole company or changing the whole company's culture. Is, um, you know, it's, it's quite a task, um, you know, you're changing your habits and stuff. So it'd just be kind of, you know, people are, you know, wanting small change, you know, something like an employee of a company, um, you know, you could obviously raise it, etc. But it would be— I, I guess the question is, you know, what could people do individually, not just kind of waiting for the whole, you know, like actual companies itself to change?

I see what you mean. Well, booking tradeswomen, encouraging, you know, if they've had a good experience with the tradesman or they, you know, they've had a good experience with a platform like Tasker where you can book tradesmen, that, you know, as a consumer, as a homeowner, that's a really easy thing to do. Not to question your, you know, your colleagues or your friends as to why they've not maybe thought about a woman. And it's not it's not, you know, like, it's not coming from a bad place, it's just coming from like an interested place. So, you know, that's a really easy thing to do. The more women that are booked, the more money is going to tradeswomen, the more likely it is that those women will then talk about how great their career is, and it is a snowball effect. I think, you know, there is, there's lots, it's a tricky one, you know, you can obviously chip away at things, but ultimately there does need to be an institutional shift, and it is huge, and it is really tricky to do. And what I mean, another thing that we're working to do is to work with schools, which again I know is obviously an institution, but, um, you know, we've got a lot of Gen Z tradeswomen who have profiles, who have like online social media profiles with a lot of followers, and they, you know, they look— the way they look and the way they kind of present themselves is appealing to a school leaver who's looking to potentially consider working in the trades. So we're looking to get those sort of, those tradeswomen into schools to talk to school leavers, to tell them about their jobs, to explain to them actually it's really great and that you get to work your own hours, you work yourself and you get that flexibility and it's really interesting and you're not just sat in front of a computer all day. But on the flip side, you know, you can also still go out clubbing and, you know, do whatever young people are doing these days. And I think that, you know, that's going to be a massive thing when it comes to supporting women in trade because we will be— they'll help supply the kind of next generation and that kind of pipeline of tradeswomen coming into the industry.

You kind of mentioned about solicitors, you know, in the 1960s, I believe you said 2%, and then now we have 55% are female. Do you know what kind of caused that change and whether we can kind of replicate that in the trades industry?

That's a really good question. I mean, I don't know exactly what caused that change, but I would imagine when it comes to making those kind of huge shifts that they— it would have been a variety of different factors. Obviously, it's a tricky one because when a solicitor is deemed as quite an aspirational job, right? Like, if you're a parent— I don't know if you're a parent, but if you're a parent, if your kid wants to become a solicitor, if your little girl wants to become a solicitor or a doctor, um, then, you know, great, amazing, looks like, you know, that's a really fun thing, and also you can brag about it to your friends. If your daughter wants to become an electrician or a plumber or heating and gas engineer, there's still a lot of work to be done I think with parents, a lot of education around, you know, actually encouraging your kids to do that because that's still something worthy of bragging about to your friends. One of the things that we sort of find, but from— we found talking to institutions and colleges is that parents are a massive roadblocker to kids working in the trades because they don't want their kid to be a plumber when they're, you know, a middle class, a nice middle class family, because the trades are deemed to be for working-class people, which is frankly ridiculous because I could tell you every single one of our tradeswomen earns probably double what me and my co-founder earn at the moment. I think so. I think like going back to what you asked with regards to how that sort of, that systemic change within the sort of solicitors in the legal world, I'd imagine it was like, you know, partly to do with like the educational side of things again, like maybe recruiting more and showing more women I don't know the exact story. I was looking at stats, well, years ago, I looked at these stats around the different industries and the level of gender inequity in them. And that one was the one that really stood out. There was another one around MDs and sort of like high levels. Obviously, we hear a lot about kind of like, well, in the startup world, there's a lot of there's a lot of chat around kind of investment in women, and only 2% of investment really goes to women in the founders world. So it's still going on there as well. So I don't know if we could necessarily replicate what happened in the legal world in the trades world, purely because of that major roadblock from parents. And then obviously then all of the subsequent roadblockers that we have After, like, you know, that we've just spoken about with regards to kind of like what it's like being a woman in the trades, I suppose, you know, like, if you're a solicitor, it is more of a professional office environment. Again, it really differs. It is really like a world unto itself, this skilled trades world.

Thank you very much for coming on the show, Anna. Really appreciated you coming on and sharing your insights.

Thanks. Having me.

Yeah, and that was Anna from Tasker, which is an online, um, booking system linking tradeswomen, uh, with customers all over the country. Thank you very much.