Catherine Nikkel : THE STORY EVERYONE HAS BUT HASN'T TOLD : The Tyler Wagner Show #1120

All right everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today we got Katherine Nickel with us, so welcome to the show.

Thank you, thank you for having me.

Of course, um, pumped to have you here. If you can just start us off a little bit more about you and what you do.

Uh, sure. I, uh, right now I'm a ghostwriter, nonfiction, for the last 8 years. Work with just incredible people. I like to call them cause authors because there's something about them that they're trying to make some type of change, whether it be social change or social justice or policy or just really inspire someone else's life. So I've been doing that. My background is in social work for 15 years, so there's been some great parallels over the time.

That's awesome. Okay. And I saw too that— well, here, let me ask this first. When you were— I love starting out with this question because I'm just curious. What you thought was gonna happen and then how things panned out. So when you were in like middle school, like what was your grand plan for your future? And was it like anything of like, like it is now, or was it like a big pivot from what you had envisioned?

Oh no, I was gonna be a marine biologist. That's it. Despite not liking maths or sciences, that's apparently what I thought was gonna happen. But I became a mom at 16. Pivotal thing in my life, needless to say, and just started coming— I probably found my way into social work as a result of the experiences I wish I would have had as a teen mom. And just realizing where, you know, so many cracks in the system are, regardless of where you live in the world, I think there's gaps, and I wanted to be a part of fixing that, or at least being a part of helping people through it. So definitely a big change.

Okay, so that's pretty wild. That's awesome. So if it's okay with you, I want to ask a few questions about that. I was going to go right to, like, you writing so many books, but now that this can of worms is opened, I'm curious. So 16, so obviously that was like somewhat of a surprise, I imagine, right?

Yeah.

Okay, not planned necessarily. Okay.

Um, no.

And then so, and, um, I'm assuming what I actually think, right, even though those aren't planned, what I think is so cool about when that happens— again, I know it's not necessarily ideal, but, um, is that I feel like because you end up as you get older, you're close in age, so you like actually become like the bestest of friends in some scenarios. Is that I mean, you still are the mother, but I'm just, you know what I mean? Is that kind of how it panned out, or, uh, a little bit?

Definitely. I mean, we're definitely super close. It's always been the two of us. And but having said that, we're also very similar, which can create a lot of oil and water type scenarios because we're both very opinionated and, you know, want to do things our way and that kind of thing. But yeah, at the same time, there's, there's been a lot of benefits to it. Not without a lot of hard work, though.

Got it. Okay. Very cool. I just— that's so— I think it's cool. So then, okay. And then what were— before you started writing your books, and I think you have 15, correct?

Yeah, I just started number 16.

It's number 16.

Okay.

What were some of the successes and failures that you had before you kind of found this path of authorship and helping others through authorship?

It's been a journey. I don't necessarily know that I ever intended on writing a book until someone asked me if I wrote books. And it was a big yes because originally I was just doing a lot of just content writing for people and emails. Not that I just didn't love that, but it starts to, I don't know, a little bit mundane after a while, and I just felt it wasn't serving the real purpose or impact that I wanted. Because, you know, to be totally honest with you, I, I missed social work a lot, even though I love the whole concept of, you know, everything they sell you on in entrepreneurship, you know, be your own boss, work your own hours, all this kind of stuff. I definitely was enamored with that, but I really missed being in the trenches. So when someone asked me if I would help them write their memoir, it just opened up a world that just allowed me to not be a counselor, social worker anymore. I'm not that, but I'm really being able to work with people in that capacity. And people feel comfortable for the most part knowing that's my background, because it's probably unlikely you're going to tell me something I haven't heard before. Um, you know, obviously in everyone's own unique way, um, but the shock But shock and awe isn't quite the same.

Got it. So somebody— okay, so you were writing, I guess, like blogging kind of stuff, right? Or social media content, that type of stuff. And then somebody asked you if you could write their memoir. And even though you hadn't done it before, you were like, yes, I can do it. That's the way to do it.

That's what I was probably— I was probably pretty fired up. I was at a Gary Vee conference. Gary Vee.

I love Gary.

And I had just listened to him speak. So I was probably on the Gary Vee juice when I said yes. But it doesn't change that it was the best decision I ever made. He's an incredible— my first client was just an incredible man, is an incredible man, venture capitalist. And he really almost mentored me once his book was done. So it was just— I couldn't have asked for a better first scary experience.

Yeah. And that's actually what I think is so cool about the line of work that we're in is like, you actually— it's almost like— I mean, it's still hard work doing— obviously writing somebody else's book is very difficult, but like you get to learn so much as well. Like you kind of are getting paid to learn. That's not accurate, but you get what I mean. Like half of it is you're getting paid to learn, and then the other half is very difficult to write somebody else's book. Yeah. But I just think that's really cool because you really do. And a lot of times, I guess it would be similar to social work where, I mean, for you to write somebody else's book, they need to be very open and vulnerable with you to get the best parts of the story. So you just get access to somebody that most people have never had that type of access with that person before.

Yeah. And a lot of times they start telling you things that they haven't told anyone. And sometimes we're like, that probably doesn't need to be in the book, but it's helpful for me to know. But it is such a privilege, right, for someone just to be able to tell you all the things.

What's the typical process, if you don't mind sharing? I'm just curious because a lot of times there are nuances or differences in people's process when they do ghostwriting for others. So how does your process typically work? Uh, I guess like more of like the creation of the book and like how do you extract it from the client and stuff like that?

Yeah, a lot of it, to be honest, is really informal conversation. Um, because the hardest part isn't necessarily— for me, the hardest part isn't getting out those vulnerable moments. The trickier part is making sure that, you know, we're really becoming that person in the sense of how they say things, the way they say things, what is their dialogue like or their narrative, where, you know, we all have common words that we say all the time. What are they? So just, you know, having— I mean, obviously I want people to tell me their story as we're talking about it. But, you know, each client is an individualized questionnaire, probably takes me a little bit more time doing that. But I'm really, really committed to an individualized experience and just really getting to know somebody and making sure that they're getting to know me because I don't want to feel like a stranger at the end of it. You know, I want them to feel like, yeah, I really did your story justice. So a lot of questions. All of my calls for the most part are done up front, typically 3 or 4, about 90-minute calls. Spaced out because, you know, we are— I'm typically attracting a lot of stories of trauma, um, and things along that, and I always want to be sensitive to that because I'm asking people to unpack stuff they probably haven't unpacked in a really long time. Yeah. And then I just— I go to work. I work on a live outline so they have an idea of where I'm at in the process. And, um, once we've had a really solid outline and storyboard done, then I disappear for a little bit and get to work.

That's awesome. And do you, or do you have you written your own books, or all those 15, like you ghostwriting others?

Ghostwriting others. I published a guided journal during the pandemic, just because I thought everyone was talking about journaling. But then people were like, I don't even know what to journal about. So I thought, well, let me try out my own practice over here. But other than that, no, just instead, just the guided journal.

Got it. And yeah, and I guess it makes sense because of the way that you started. And it's so interesting, a lot of the people that I've talked to in the industry, it's a very similar story of like you kind of fall into it. Most people in book publishing, they never really plan to go into book publishing. It's just like something like your story of like, well, I was doing content writing and then somebody asked me to write their memoir. And now years later, I've written 16, like, bestsellers or whatever. Like, you know, it just like happens and then you go, you end up going all in because it's just such a cool industry.

And it's funny too because my mom spent her entire career in educational publishing. So for her, when she knew I wanted to be writing, she's like, there is no money in that anymore. Nobody's doing that anymore. You're crazy. I mean, not in like an ugly way. My mom has like this weird motivational thing about her, the way she presents things. But I always grew up around it and it was never necessarily part of, you know, I always thought to be an entrepreneur you needed to invent something. You know, naive as it is, but yeah.

Yeah, well, here's a question just 'cause you said that of what your mom said is like, you know, what are your thoughts overall I mean, look, obviously, because your business, my business, a lot of book publishers, like, there's definitely money in it. And from what I've seen, I think a lot of times what it is, uh, at least with my clients, is it's a lot of like business owners, CEOs, where they're busy running their business. They don't really want to take the time, or don't have the time, however you want to look at it, to write their whole book by themselves. And then so they hire somebody like yourself to ghostwrite it for them. And then similar on the marketing side, it's like, say you want to hit New York Times or Wall Street Journal bestseller or whatever list. Some of the lists, as I'm sure you're aware, aren't that difficult, like Amazon bestsellers. Those are a little bit easier. But regardless, doing all that on your own is also very difficult. So they could hire a firm. So there's money in it. But I do think with technology and AI and stuff, our industry of book publishing I don't think it'll go away, but I do think it's going to change drastically. Like, have you thought about that at all?

Or— yeah, I get asked about that a lot. Um, the truth is, I think yes, we'll see some major shifts. I think we already have to some degree. But at the end of the day, people crave real people and real stories and real emotion and real voices and real tangible impact or someone that they can really relate to on so many levels. And I just don't know. And I'm not knocking the AI industry. I think it has its place and it's brilliant. But I think for people that still want to continue to really share, I hate to use the word authentically, but it's true. I don't know that AI can ever replace that. So I'm pretty confident, especially in the nonfiction space, fiction industries might be seeing a little bit harder hit, if you will, than I think the nonfiction space. But I think nonfiction, that, yeah, we're seeing some shift right now, but we'll see it go back, I think, in our favor.

Yeah, no, I actually agree with you. And I think, you know, if you were to divide it in two sides, like marketing, I don't— if anything, I think it might amplify it because it just— all these tools and stuff, they just make the marketing of things easier, which I think is good. And you can reach more people with more social media, softwares, automations, whatever. That's all good. And then on the writing side, it's just like, at least for now, the AIs that I've seen people and some of my writers have tested out, it's just not anywhere close to a human. It's just not. Maybe you can get a rough outline and a really choppy first chapter, but like, it's not, it's not going to be the end-all be-all. So I think like best case of the argument for AI coming in is like more of a conjoined situation. It's not like taking away the writer, but it's like instead of the client coming to you with nothing, maybe with some AI help they could actually come to you with like a foundation for the book. And in that case, it's like, okay, cool, you made my job a little easier.

Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, at least for— and I know tech speed, the speed of technology is very fast. But to me, I feel like at least for another decade, there's not going to be something that can write anywhere. It just won't happen. I don't know, maybe we're wrong, but I think I'm with you on this one. Um, so, okay, any— I'm sure some of the projects that, uh, or I'm sure there's somewhere you can't really say names and stuff, but is there any, uh, in particular that like stands out of like it was a really unique story that you can share, even if you can't say the name? I'm just curious.

Sure. Uh, I— yeah, I'm definitely on non-disclosure with all of them, but you know, when I— we first started talking and I mentioned cause authors and I had someone who referred this client to me just because they knew me from social work and they said, you know, Katherine's ghostwriting now, you should really hit her up with your story. So at the time I had no idea, I just knew, okay, she's being referred because of my background, it's gonna be something heavy. And she was, her husband took his life to suicide, he was a first responder. And her goal was to help other first responder families identify signs early on. So she wanted to be able to tell her story, but also with purpose, with a purpose to it. And now that book is handed out to her respective areas' first responders when they graduate. So it goes to them with their families. So just even though I know her story is not unique, and as a result, I was introduced to two other widows that we've done their books as well. One that's gone on to create real policy change, that it's no longer sick leave if an officer needs to take leave, or it's no longer mental health leave, it's sick leave, you know, because it's eliminating, at least it steps to eliminating that stigma. So again, I know you asked me, are they unique? And although they're unique in their own right, really seeing something go on, not to just, you know, as everyone else comes to you, I want to hit a bestseller. It's like, okay, let's write the book first. Where this one was really coming with wanting to create a really big ripple. So those stories, those stories mean a lot to me.

Gotcha. And I saw too, as I was doing research, you— I don't know if this was a joke or not, but on your 1 or 3 sheet here, 2 sheet, it says coffee drinking is a topic you like to talk about.

So I just like to drink it a lot. Anyone who knows me knows that that's I think that's just what it is. And it just became— I had clients start sending me the most random mugs with sayings on it. So it just became a Catherine thing, I guess. Got it. Okay.

No, I'm also— I'm a huge coffee fan. I actually, right now I'm traveling international. I'm in Colombia and we did this tour. I think it was in Santa Marta where we did the tour, but we went to a coffee farm in Colombia. That was actually really cool because you get to see the farm, they give you a whole tour, and then they brew you— it's like fresh-picked or however it works, like fresh beans or whatever. And they literally— they're like, these are from this morning. And then they run them through the process and then they brew you coffee right there with it. So I think it tasted better, but it also could have been a little mental thing.

I don't know. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. The prettier the name, the better it tastes sometimes too.

Yeah, for sure. Um, do you have— what's the one in Canada? It's Tim Hortons, right? I think that's—

yeah, on like every single block. Yeah. Yeah.

Is that your go-to or you make it at home?

I'm a— I'm, I'm an at-home maker. Um, if I've got it— if I've got to go the Tim Hortons route, it needs to be dark roast, otherwise it's just dirty dishwater. I'm a bit of a coffee snob. It's true.

What do you think of Starbucks then? Like, no. Yeah. What's so weird is like, you know, how successful Starbucks is. And apparently from what I've heard from, I guess you call them a lot of coffee. What is that word? Aficionados or something.

Yeah.

You know, they say Starbucks coffee actually is like really not good. Like, it's like not actually like solid. Um, but you, you know, when you get their lattes with all the sugar, you can't really tell. It's just like, you know, it tastes good because it's 50 grams of sugar or whatever.

And then you're not a coffee drinker, you're just a fake coffee drinker.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you get it with, you know, whatever, all the pumps of vanilla. So, okay, so now, uh, just curious on like where you're thinking of like taking your business, or maybe you're like very content with where it's at and staying like this. So Are you— is it you that's doing all of the writing and you just take on a few projects a year, or do you plan on, um, you know, maybe having writers underneath you that you train? Like, any ideas for the future with it?

Yeah, so for the book ghostwriting piece, it's just me, so I don't take on more than 3 a year, um, because I won't ever overlap a book. So typically my turnaround in a book is about 90 to 120 days. So ideally, I only want to do 2 a year, but the waitlist just kept growing. So I'll be honest with you, I didn't even offer any type of book coaching until just this last year or 2023 because I just felt like it was— it's one thing to say, oh, I have a waitlist until 2026, 2027, and that's great from a business standpoint. But what it also meant was I was delaying people's stories getting out there. 3, 4 years down the road. And I just, and the truth is a lot of people think they want a ghostwriter. It seems to be a little bit trendier until, you know, Prince Harry's ghostwriter blew up our scene and started doing all the things he shouldn't have been doing. But a lot of people just want help. You know, they just really just want someone that, not just to be their cheerleader, but, you know, someone that they can just kind of bounce ideas off of. So when I launched the coaching, And it's an individualized program. Group coaching is not my jam, especially when it comes to nonfiction stories. Maybe see, there's my strong opinion coming out. Yeah. So the, so the book coaching, and that's what I'd really like to just continue doing. You know, we just had two clients finish out of that. They just went, it just, it's already making some really good, really good traction for them. So having that, you know, it's evergreen because it's doing it, you know, individualized. But then as far as everything else, blog content, email copy, I have a team that works with me that'll help manage those things. Website copy.

Got it. Do you have a— do you have or do you ever plan on doing like a course?

Yeah, I have a mini course already that's just designed— not just, I have to stop selling that short. It's designed to help people tell better stories. So whether they apply it to a business or, you know, social media just to garner attention. So just a mini course I put together. Um, I've entertained the idea of helping, um, people do a course— or sorry, to do a course to help people on how to be a ghostwriter. Um, because it's a whole lot. It's not just being a writer. I never profess to be a great writer. I mean, I'm pretty good, but you know, there's so much more to ghostwriting than just— you're not just retelling a story, you're telling someone's story. So, you know, it's incredible how many skills people already have that are really transferable to that. Um, so that was something I have entertained doing, but not yet.

No, I mean, to me, I just think— I don't know if people really realize, and maybe for you and some others it's more of a natural talent, like, I don't know, but I just think writing somebody else's book is one of the hardest things you can ever try to do. Even writing your own book is hard enough. Trying to write in the voice of somebody else for 300 pages or whatever it comes out to be, that is like magic in my mind. I just think it's crazy. But thank God there's people like you and me, because me, I'm more like, put me in a room and let me do podcasts all day, talk to people, or like sales calls, whatever, anything with interaction. But you put me in a room by myself and tell me to write, it is like, it's rough, man. I just think it's so difficult. But you really like it, right?

I love it.

Different personalities, I guess. And actually, you should do that. I know I'm blanking on it, but there's somebody else in the industry. I think it's called Ghostwriter School or something, but there's somebody else in the industry that does something like that, and I think it's doing well. And there's a lot of people because they want to kind of get out of the 9 to 5 thing they want to do. And they're kind of how you started out, I think. They do blogs and content writing, but writing a book is kind of scary to them. So I think having some sort of platform that teaches them how to do all that, and then they feel comfortable signing a— because not everybody has the confidence that you had in the beginning like that. The Gary Vee juice or whatever. Yeah, but I actually do love that because there's a quote by, I think it's Richard Branson or whatever. Is it Branson or Brunson? I think it's Branson, where he's like, if somebody asks you if you can fly a plane, just say yes and figure out how to fly it while you're doing it or whatever. It's worded way better than— and that's really I think that's how you should do it in business, because that's why I think a lot of people, they never even give themselves a chance to succeed because they never feel they're ready. And it's like, dude, you'll never be ready. You'll never do the thing.

Yeah. And as long as— and I was honest with that client that he was going to be my first book. So it wasn't just all of a sudden like, yeah, let me just fall my way through your memoir. But Yeah, it was, yeah, do it.

And maybe what you do too, like I remember with my business in the beginning, I helped a few friends out like pretty much for free in exchange for testimonial. So in like ghostwriting, I feel like what you could do is, you know, ghostwriting is not a cheap thing by any means because of the amount of work. I mean, you can only do 3 per year, so you got to charge. And I'm not asking what your fees are, I'm just saying you got to charge something for it, right? So maybe for your first client, this is just an idea for listeners that might want to get in the industry. For your first client, just give them a real steep discount and be honest with them. Like, I'm more doing this for my portfolio and you're going to save this much money. Do you want to do it? And most people probably will say yes to something like that.

Yeah, he was very welcoming of it, so it worked out. And same thing with anyone wanting to do ghostwriting too. Portfolio is the hardest because everything we're we're working with is operating under nondisclosure. And that's really why I just started writing articles for different publications, just so people got a general feel of how you write. And even though you're writing as yourself, a little bit different than writing for them, but at least they're getting a general sense that you do actually know what you're doing.

Yeah. I'm curious about this. I was listening to this guy's podcast. It has nothing to do with the stuff we're talking about. Actually has to do with law and crime. He was in prison like 13 years. Uh, his name is Matthew Cox, but what he did in prison is he ended up writing all these other, uh, people in prison's stories, and he would work out deals with them where I think it was like, you know, if you don't want my name on the COVID then it's this price, but if you're okay with my name being on the COVID then it's like discounted, right? So you get like credit. Um, so do you— or is your name on any of them, or you do the other way where it's all private and the person.

Yeah, no, it's, it's totally private. Having said that, about 40% of the books I've been named in the acknowledgments, not necessarily ghostwriter, but as, you know, supporting getting the book out there, or, you know, really kind, couldn't have done it without. So those are welcome but never expected, but definitely appreciated.

Gotcha, got it. That makes sense. Yeah. And I guess, um, Yeah, I mean, ultimately, that's the business you're running. I think for some people, maybe that's more of an ego thing, but because they technically wrote it, so they're like, well, I would really like my name on the COVID But obviously it's kind of like, well, part of the reason the person's paying you to do it is because they don't want your name on the COVID And it is an ego thing, and that's okay.

I think ego can be super healthy too. But if your goal is to have your name on the book, then you're not meant to be a ghostwriter. You're meant to be a writer or helper or whatever the case is. But ghostwriters kind of go— you need to go in just knowing that you're probably not going to get the credit.

Have you seen— and I know you might not be able to be super specific with this answer, but I know you said one of the clients you had, I think the book helped with some policy changes and stuff. Have you worked with, like, maybe it was the first guy. I'm sorry, I can't remember exactly how you had worded that answer, but have you worked with some, like, business owners where after they had the book, they noticed, like, a considerable uptick in their business from, like, leveraging the book?

Yes, 100%, especially the business life hybrid. You know, a lot of entrepreneurs have great intentions of writing the book, but then it never happens. But it's pretty amazing, you know, watching them, you know, being able to use it from stage or not just for that purpose, but it also gives people an insight to who they are. So definitely the business life hybrid. How-tos, not so much. And I don't tend to play in that arena very much. I'd much rather have the stories that go with it. So, but yeah, definitely.

Yeah, I think that the how-tos a lot of times I think are almost better for like those like book funnel things or like an opt-in or something to just funnel into your business. But then when it comes to a standalone book that could also funnel to your business, but if you want something to travel and have people talk about it, I just don't think the how-to can really deliver that almost because story is what travels. Even if it's a how-to that literally gives you the exact process of zero million dollars and it works every time. It's just so dry that like people aren't going to really talk about it, you know, whereas the story is what travels. So I don't know.

Absolutely. Yeah.

So, yeah, I guess one other question for you and then I want to leave, you know, kind of the floor to you if there's anything else you want to share. But I saw too that you were featured on like a lot of different areas. So it seems like, you know, obviously ghostwriting is your core thing, but you obviously have some marketing expertise and stuff. So, do you have any tips for authors on the side of marketing or personal brand marketing and stuff?

I just really believe in publicity. I was really fortunate to make another very scary investment into myself 8 years ago. So, a year into my business where business wasn't profitable then, and I just really started to embrace the world of publicity, and it's just opened so many doors. My most recent book client is because she found my Business Insider article that was featured by Apple News, and that was something— I mean, I don't pay to play in the publicity space. It's just that grind of pitching reporters and journalists and getting plugged into that. And, um, I just think that it's such a valuable— it's just, it's changed my business. So just as far as just the credibility and people getting to know who you are, right?

Yeah, no, that's amazing. So somebody found you through there and yeah, I think just as the somebody becoming an author does for their credibility, it's similar. Like when you can say that you've been featured in Forbes Business, I'm just actually reading some of the ones that you are, Business Insider. These are like big publications. That are very difficult to get into. So either way, kudos to you. That's awesome.

Thank you.

So, yeah, I mean, I want to leave the floor to you. If there's anything that we didn't cover, please share and then let people know, because my audience is a lot of aspiring authors, so I'm sure there's going to be some interest for you. So let people know where they can stay in contact with you. Website, socials, stuff like that.

For sure. Well, first, thanks for having me on. I'm glad we made this, we made this work, made this happen. And really, the primary thing I just would love to leave everyone with is just please use your voice to make an impact. It doesn't matter on what platform you're doing it or how you're doing it. If it's a book, perfect. If it's not, that's okay. But just continue to really use your voice. And I believe we can make a change in the world, even if it's in our next-door neighbor. But that's just really my, my, that's really my goal. So you can find me on my website, KatherineNickel.com, and any social, it's just my name as well. KatherineNickel, N-I-K-K-E-L.

Thank you again for coming on. Really appreciate it.

For sure. Thanks, Tyler Wagner.