Dan Salinger : HUMANIZE DEMENTIA CAREGIVING : The Tyler Wagner Show #1118

All right, everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today we have Dan Salinger with us. So welcome to the show, man.

Well, thank you, Tyler Wagner Wagner. I appreciate the invite.

Thanks for coming on. And I get— just to start us off, can you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do?

All right. Well, my name again is Dan Salinger Wagner. I'm like a retired attorney. Working my way through my last cases. And I got on social media a few years back during COVID actually, as when we were quarantined. And then as my dad was getting up in years, I ended up bringing my dad into my house. My brother and I kind of shared time at first. And so my dad started appearing on my social media and, you know, my dad blew up. And so he now has like 2 million Viewers that watch him on a daily basis worldwide. And we kind of just share our journey of someone, of a son taking care of his father who has advanced dementia. And the goal is to, you know, to give him as normal a life as possible, living in my house and giving myself as normal a life as possible while we're doing this. And hopefully, you know, keep him out of a memory care unit, trying to keep him in a familiar place with family, even if he doesn't know exactly how he's related to that family. It's still a more comfortable environment for him. So that's the idea. And it's kind of blown up a little bit on social media thanks to, you know, my dad's personality and some of his quirks and some of his, you know, He just— I've— we had trouble understanding his allure. Right. You know, what are all these people watching him for? And then I'm watching the videos and he's got something. I don't know what it is, but he has some way of relating and touching people that I certainly can't emulate. I wish I could, but unfortunately, he's got that magic. And with dementia at 91 and all, he communicates with the entire world.

It's amazing. I'm curious, so did you, did you have like any idea that it would like take off this big, or were you kind of really just messing around and like randomly a couple just went viral? Is that kind of how it happened?

So it had started. I started the whole journey during quarantine out of boredom, and I was posting you know, my pictures, poems, little, you know, things with my wife out gardening in the yard while I'm sitting there just to, you know, kind of pass the time during quarantine. And I started, you know, about 4 or 5 months before my dad moved in. So the channel was chugging along, doing all right. You know, I thought we were having some success and my poems were getting read. And then, and then my dad moved in. And he started appearing in the videos and it was not instantaneous by any stretch of the imagination. There's a number of him in the videos, just normal videos, and he just kind of became part of our daily routine. So he'd end up in, you know, not featuring him, but partially in the videos because he was just there and around. And then, you know, with the difficulty of caregiving, we had a day and it was a day where I was at my wit's end This is like 3 years ago, and I was very inexperienced at how to, how to take care of somebody with advanced dementia, much less my dad, who, you know, I had this way of communicating with my whole life, you know, and you— it's hard to break those patterns that are established. But clearly, the way that I was dealing with them was not, you know, it was not the ideal way to deal with someone who's suffering from dementia. And we had an episode where he was He had, he had one of my car keys, wasn't to that car, and he was in another car trying to, you know, to turn it on and drive away. And this is at a point when he had no license, he had no insurance, he had no nothing. Right. And it was a, it was a really difficult thing for us to keep him away from the car. And it was, you know, the first 6, 8 months of having it was the car, the car, the car. And prior to that, we had had a number of experiences of him actually taking the car out after we had taken the keys away. We had even taken the car, put it in a different location. He tracked it down and took it. I mean, you know, it was really something. So the car was a big issue to us. And in this one video, I just kind of lost it, you know, and I walked out and I'm like, Dad, what the fuck are you doing? Where the fuck are you going? And he— my dad is Spanish, you know, The apple does not fall far from the tree. And he turns around, I'm effing going to the bank. You know, he just throws it right back at me. And I'm just, you can see the frustration. And I'm saying, how are you going to get to the bank? Because, you know, he didn't, his sense of direction was gone. He didn't know any streets. And he starts. And anyway, that video kind of blew it up. And it first blew up ironically. And people were riding me into the ground. You know, I was, I was the devil after that video. How could you do that to your dad? How, you know, what, how do you talk to someone? That's not what you do. And, um, and my kids are like reading the— it was blowing up, you know, it's going viral and it's, you know, hundreds and hundreds or thousands of people bagging on me. And my kids come in, you better take that video down. My wife saw, you know, you better take that video down. I watched the video again and I said, you know, I'm not taking that video down. This is real life. You know, this is— that's, that's real. That's not staged. That's not drama dramatized. That is me at my wit's end trying to deal with my dad. And it's not horrible. You know, there's nothing— it's not going to crack the censors open. So I said, I'm leaving it up there. That's, that's life. You like to— if you want to see it, you can see it. You don't scroll on and And I did a little video kind of responding to some of the comments. And then it started a big back and forth, you know, people that were backing me, then the other experts that were, you know, experts, right? Everybody's an expert in care on TikTok. And so that's kind of how it started. And then I just kept posting more videos and more videos and more and more people kept joining the journey. And, you know, I think we're at 2 million, I think, right now on TikTok and, you know, like a half a million on YouTube. So Yeah, that's how it, that's how it started. And it was definitely not intentional. I definitely had no clue that, that my dad would blow the channel up. It was just dumb luck. And, you know, for whatever reason, he hit that vein, the channel took off, and, you know, now I spend a lot of time doing podcasts like this. So it's been a hell of a journey for me, and I have no regrets. But no, it was not a planned out or strategic, you know, career choice or move. By any means. It just happened.

It's crazy how controversy can do that. Actually, some like marketers, they actually will plan controversy, right? Because they know that it'll take it off. So it's kind of interesting. But so if you don't mind sharing, I know this story, but just for the audience, is, um, what, uh, like before when you were doing law, you had some health stuff, and then that's what I think that was part of the reason that you wanted to take your dad in too, because Like, can you tell that story? Like, I know what it is. It's for our audience.

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I was living a very different life 10 years ago. I was caught up in the rat race of, you know, work hard, party hard, you know, and working, trying to make a lot of money and then, you know, playing really hard and spending it. And it's just this crazy lifestyle that I was in, and it wasn't the healthiest lifestyle. You can't go from stress to partying all night long and then back to a super stressful job where— and it wore on me. And, you know, my diet wasn't great. I wasn't exercising enough. And then when I was 51 years old, in fact, 5 years ago now on Valentine's Day, I had a heart attack. And ironically, it was before a giant hearing that I had the next day. And I'm in the hospital room, the ER, and they're going, yeah, you had a heart attack. You either— we're either going to treat it medicinally. Great. I hope so. Or with a stent. Or if we can't get to the blockage, then you're going to crack your chest open and you're going to have open heart surgery. You know, this is not something that I wanted to go through at 51, you know, out of the blue. And I had a lot of time to sit there while I was waiting to find out which of those 3 scenarios it was going to be: medicine, which it wasn't, a stent that you can put in through your, you know, going through your wrist so you're not getting chopped open or cut open, and/or if they had to crack my chest open and go in and actually do a physical bypass. So, I had a lot of hours to think about my life. You know, other than at the beginning when I first got there, I was actually— I had my cell phone that I had hidden from the nurses because I'm texting my, my secretary. I'm texting the client that I had tomorrow. I'm all, here, here's the— here's a— here's a text message. I need you to show this to the bailiff right when you go to court tomorrow. You know, I'm worried about what's going on the next day. I'm sitting there in the hospital dying of a heart attack, right? My priorities were effed.

Up.

They weren't right. So as the hours drew on and my wife went home and it was overnight, I had to wait until the doctors came in in the morning. I went in about midnight. So, you know, the angio guys get there at 8 in the morning. So I had a long time to wait. And, and I told my wife, go home and sleep. You know, your kids are going to get up in a couple of hours. They don't know what's going on. So be there, deal with that and come back. And while I was waiting, I had an opportunity. I got really, really— I guess I felt guilty that I might be orphaning or partially orphaning my kids right as they're in high school, getting ready to go into college. One was already in college. And all of a sudden, I'm not going to be there for them. I'm not done being a father or a parent or a husband or even— I'm not done living yet. And I had to face this mortality. And I wrote— I wrote them a letter, you know, describing, you know, what, you know, how I felt at that moment, which you can find on my TikTok if you look close enough. It's there. I read that letter at one point a few months back, and as it turned out, I had the stent procedure and I was out the next day. But I came out a different person than I went in. On the way, on the way home, I driving home, I had a conversation with my wife and I'm like, you know, Danielle, I can't continue to do what I'm doing at work. I'm going to have to take some time off. We're going to have to put a rental on the market, one of our rentals to cover, because, you know, we're spending a lot, you know, not ready, not prepared to, you know, to have a life-changing financial event like that. So I said, you know, at this point, I got to do what I got to do to stay alive. And I— we sold the property to hold us over. And instead of going to work the next day, that hearing was put off about 3 weeks. Instead of going to work the next day, I went to a place and took a hike, a 3-mile hike. And I started hiking every single day from that point on instead of going to work for 6 months. I was— and I was— by the time, 8 months after the heart attack, I was hiking 20 miles. On my birthday, I did a 20-mile hike and I climbed like 200 stairs. And if you could, you know, I was like 30 pounds overweight the day I had the heart attack. I, I just completely transformed my life. And in the course of doing that, you become a different person. Your priorities shift tremendously. And family was something that I had given the short shift to during my career. I was having too much fun. I felt too important, whatever those artificial things are. I was caught up in it. And I realized— I don't know if people call it whatever, come to Jesus, wake up, whatever you are. I realized what's important in life. And one of the things that was really important to me was family, right? And then so that happened. And my dad had dementia at that time. He was living on his own, but we knew the day was coming where he was going to need help. And it didn't, you know, it wasn't like a plan. I'm going to take him in. But as the years went by, you know, a couple of years passed and it became time for my dad to, to either go into a home or memory care or he's going to have to come live with the family. And he started out with my brother Mark, who was recently divorced. It was like the perfect situation. And he stayed there with him for 5 or 6 months, and then he came and stayed with me for a week, and I realized just how demanding and how difficult this job is and how impossible it is for one person. So we started splitting time, um, with, with Mark. My dad would be partially at his house, partially at my house, and then ultimately, like a few months back, he had a fall. He's been at my house completely for the last 4 months. But it was that shift in my personal philosophy that really led to— we're going to take my— he's my family, right? And I'm not putting him in a home. 5 years earlier, before I had— if I hadn't had that, I don't know where I would have been mentally. I don't know where my mind would have been. But after going through that little metamorphosis from the heart attack, it clearly impacted my decision to you know, to say, I'm going to forego whatever else I have in my life and I'm going to— I'm going to make the sacrifice to take care of my dad. And clearly the right decision.

Oh, yeah. What were the— because, Mom, is that accurate that Dad's mom— was it dementia? That's the answer. Yeah. What are— what were like the first signs that you started, like, noticing of dementia? Like, is it just like simply forgetting certain things? Is that the first signs normally? I guess I'm asking both of you.

I'm gonna ask you that, Dan. One of my questions for you was, did you see— you and your brother, your family see it early on with your father? And was it explained to your father early on enough so that he understood, like, what was to come for him? Did he know that at one time what was coming?

You mean as far as the need to have help?

Yeah.

I don't think he's ever, ever thought that. And if you asked him today, unless he's really in a bad moment, he's going to tell you he can take care of himself today.

Yes.

So he's never reached the point where he said, yeah, I have, I have dementia or I have deficits and I need your help. We recognized it a long, long time ago. I mean, 5 years before he moved in with us, you could see the beginnings of the signs. And it was not just forgetting things. That was pretty normal for him. That's been going on for 56 years of my 56-year life.

Right.

Calling me the wrong name or what have you.

Yes.

Different things like, you know, he went and closed out a bank account and was walking around with the cashier's check in his wallet for a decent amount of money for like 2 or 3 weeks. And when I, when I saw it, you know, I looked at the date how easily that could have been just lost. Or if he fell out, it would have been gone. Nobody ever would have known. And my dad was just not like that. That was so out of character for him to walk around with it. My dad barely walked around with $20 in his wallet, much less a big check, you know, folded over. He would get lost in extremely familiar places, you know, a trip that he's taken for the last 10 years. He makes a wrong turn at a major intersection going the opposite way. Just something is not a normal mistake. And those things started to happen and we knew he was going to need help. And long before he even moved out, we had taken his car away a good year and a half before he moved out on his own. He lived in a, in a small development that he was able to walk every day and everybody knew him. It was little Del Webb. Yeah, they all knew him. He'd be able to walk and function. We would pick him up and see him, and usually in the afternoon, Mark or I, and then he'd go back, he'd go home, he would eat his own dinner, you know, a little frozen Healthy Choice and a salad, and then he would go to bed and get up in the morning, do his breakfast until we got there at noon, or one of us got there at noon. And that's, that kind of was for, for a year and a half or 2 years while he was on his own. And then one day he was, he was, you know, hurting, and we looked and it was all bruised, like bad, and then down his leg, and there were scrapes on his leg. I was like, Dad, What happened? And he didn't have any clue. He obviously fell and he had no clue or memory that it happened. And that was the day I was with Mark, and I looked at Mark and he— again, he was recently separated. Mark, we can't— we got to do something. And we moved him into Mark's house that very day because we just— I just imagined him laying down, you know, for 12 hours while, you know, he couldn't reach anybody or a broken leg or something. So that was the day and the catalyst that that really caused the move. But the signs are there and recognizable for sure.

What are they? Because what I see on the TikTok, it seems like the most common things is he wants to drive, like he still believes he has the— his car, or like somebody took it, and then his wallet. Those are the two most common scenarios, or is there other ones as well?

Every day he's looking for his wallet, you know, and half the time I'm like, Dad, it's in your pocket. Oh, okay, well, where's my checkbook? Well, we have an emergency checkbook for him in his room and his keys are now hanging with all the other keys. But the reality is he doesn't really miss the act of driving. A lot of people confuse that. Take him out, let him drive in the parking lot. What he misses is his freedom. And those things all represent freedom. Money, your ability to get money, your keys, and your car. What those have in common is that that's your ability to live your life. And that's what my dad misses. He didn't spend money. I mean, he was not somebody to go out He didn't buy a whole lot of anything. He was the simplest guy in the world, and the only place he drove his car to would be the store or his kid's house. But the freedom to do that is what he really misses and still misses to this day. The material, the items themselves are just manifestations of his freedom to him. So that's really what he would— if he could have anything, that's what he would want. He would want his freedom.

Yeah. And freedom is independence. Independence. That's what it is. That's what it is. Um, I, like Tyler had said, um, my mother-in-law had dementia. I took care of her, and she was a nurse for years. And she, when she was diagnosed and was told, she of course knew what was to come. And one of the things that she had told me when I was going to be her caregiver is she kept apologizing because she knew what was going to come. And how bad it was going to be. And she— so I— that resonates with me because she kept saying, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, of what I was going to be doing for her. And, um, you know, she was sorry that she was going to be losing her independence, that she wouldn't be able to care for herself. Yeah, because if anything at all, I can tell you that's what she felt so bad about. And I, you know, I'm glad I was able to take that from her. And of course, because I was so honored to be You know, I remember one of your TikToks, and it really resonated with me because you spoke about having an intimate— am I correct? You said the word intimate relationship, and I heard that, and I said to myself, I think so many people don't— maybe don't understand that. I know they didn't with me all the time, of what I was able to have with my mother-in-law, seeing somebody with dementia But I really did have such an intimate relationship with my mother-in-law. Being with somebody who most people don't think they can connect, but you really can connect with someone like that so closely in such a way, um, because it's such a bond of trust. And to me, to have somebody completely trust you is intimate. It really is. That is an intimate relationship. And I had that with her.

Yep. And everything you just said to me, I could have said the same thing. So, I mean, there is a connection between, you know, these activities and the gratefulness. I mean, I got goosebumps when you were talking because you're describing, you know, she's saying I'm sorry, knowing what's going to come. I'm not sorry for today. I'm sorry for what you're going to have to deal with. That's remarkable. And my dad, the same way every day. And I'm not exaggerating when I say every day, multiple times a day, my dad will say, you are a good son. I am so lucky. Thank you. I really appreciate what you're doing. You are a good son. You are. You're helping your dad. I mean, he is grateful every day today.

Yes.

What you're describing, I mean, I can hear from my mom, you know, my mom's completely with it. And, you know, she would be, you know, she would be reticent to jump into and make me do that, you know. Yet, and I tell her every day, Mom, it would be an honor. It's not really, it's not really, it's not a burden. It is, it is, it's frustrating as hell. It can drive you crazy, but it's not a burden. And with the intimacy, I think the closest way you can— what you're describing is exactly— I feel it. And I think the closest description that people might be identify with is a motherly bond. When you're taking care of somebody that is 100% dependent upon you, yeah, massive responsibility. And you know, everything— when it's your father or your mother, or even your mother-in-law who's done it for you, or your husband when they were small, it is the, you know, the least we can do.

We're—

again, I've said before, it's the cycle of life. We're now taking— we're now doing for them what they did for us in the beginning. And I think it is is it's a very beautiful relationship. And I do feel much closer to my dad than at any other time in my life. It's just reality.

Yeah, it's amazing. I can remember different moments and people would never know that. And me explaining to people there was different times in my life, you know, that certain things would happen and I would go in there. We were able to keep her with my father-in-law at home. Um, because I would go in and care for her every day, get her out of bed. She couldn't get out of bed or do anything anymore. That's the point it got to. And, um, you know, there was different times I would go in there and say, good morning, you know, how are you, Brenda? I'm fine. And there were different times, a few times she said to me, no, you're not. Like she knew. She knew, you know what I'm saying to you? Like at different times, if I would be— yeah, and I And it was— it's amazing because people wouldn't guess that about someone with dementia. But I had that connection with her. It was amazing. And other people around me, even, even some of her own children, maybe I'd have to tell them that, no, you don't understand. Like, she— you can have that with someone like that. So she really was a remarkable woman in my life. And when you say— I have to mention to you too, when you say with the TikTok, like, it's your dad, it is your father. But I have to tell you, I think it's a lot about your relationship with him, what people gravitate towards. So, you know, you kind of take it a little bit away from yourself. It's the two of you, but people need to see that. And I— that's what grabbed me as soon as Tyler told me about your TikTok. Mom, you would love this, you have to see it. Like, I love seeing the two of you together. It is your dad, but it's the two of you together.

Oh yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, it really is. That's what it's really about. It's the two of you. It's the relationship, you know. It really is. So, you know, don't just say, I don't know what it is. I'm saying it actually has to do with your relationship. I would 100%— I want you to know that.

Well, I appreciate that. And I, and I do— I mean, I do have a special relationship with them, and people see it and comment on it. But again, that really is— that's just our relationship.

Yes.

That's, you know, I know my dad and I know, you know, what is going to resonate with him from 50 years of being with him. And while I can't be the same that I was 10 years ago because it was a very different relationship, I still know how to, you know, to give him what he needs. I can read between the lines even if he doesn't have the words. I can see it in his face. I'm just— the history's there. For that to happen. And I think people— and my dad, if you notice, even when he doesn't know I'm his son, he feels the connection. It's that the patterns don't change because it's muscle memory in his brain, the way we interact. Even if he's thinking I'm his brother-in-law, we still interact the same. Yeah, that's— that is— that's a beautiful thing. And I'm proud of that, and I'm proud of the relationship. That I have and that he trusts me to that extent. He, you know, the one thing that makes it work is he trusts me to the end. I mean, whatever it is, I tell him what he wants to hear, what he doesn't want to hear. Ultimately, he knows in his heart that I, that I, that I'm going to do what's best for him. And, you know, ultimately that's what it comes down to. And if that goes away, that relationship or what you see on camera might shift. I hope not, but Right now he does have— he's got that, that trust, and it's what makes it— it's what makes it work.

Well, it does make it work though, because like, I remember telling my mother-in-law that, like, it's fine, you can trust me, and I am honored to do this for you. Absolutely honored. I thanked her. I remember sitting on the side of her bed and holding her hands and thanking her for handing it over to me and choosing me. It was always a gift to me, and it really— it literally fed my soul to be able to do that for her in her life, because it is a gift to be chosen, for someone to trust you so much, um, to care for them. It's one of the biggest. And to be there at the end, because I was right there with her. I, I look at those things as such a gift that I have been given in my life to do that. For someone. Really, it is.

And that doesn't always happen. They don't always have that, that trust in the caregiver. And I've seen it on TikTok, you know, we're just not the same. And so you obviously had a bond that existed, her condition, and you, you were just the perfect person for the job. And congratulations on doing that. And, and it's great that you're on here telling the world that it— you're— the way you're talking about it, you know, you're reminiscing like it was a great And I couldn't agree more. You know, it's not the same kind of great time that you might have thought about in your 20s, you know, going out or whatever it is you want to do. It's much more grand than that. It really is.

It is.

You know, you're— there's nothing more that I want to do on a Saturday evening than watch a Giants game with my dad sitting right here on the bed, even if he doesn't talk or—

He talks some—

There's a lot of people there, you know. Who are we playing? Everybody. That's the Giants. Giants. Oh, good, good. Who's playing? Yeah. So, you know, what my options are, that or I could be at the local bar drinking beer with a bunch of strangers, right?

Yeah.

I'll pick this. If I had only known this 40 years ago, I would have lived a bit of a different life. It's remarkably— it's incredibly rewarding.

It is.

And, you know, that's— if that's— I hope people get that message out of it, is that the joy runs both ways and the frustration runs both ways. Right. That the joy outshines the frustration, at least for me. And it is— it's probably been one of the best decisions I've made in my life was to do that because it was not an easy decision. You know, it's a life-changing decision. Um, but I've discovered that I can juggle it all. I can take care of my dad, I can live my life, um, I can deal with my kids and give them the time that they need, and I can, I can do all that. Now, of course, work has been eliminated, so that is, uh, you know, that's a, a great benefit. And the, and the ability of me to earn a living on social media because of my dad has contributed to that. But, um, you know, other than that, I, I'm, I'm able to swing it all at the same time, and I know that I'm incredibly lucky with that because most people are— you have to work. I mean, let's be— let's be honest, you're not retired. You got to earn a living. Um, and that, that makes it a little more difficult to juggle. But again, if people can find, you know, a situation like I had with my brother— you don't have to do it all if you can bring a sibling on, but he also do it part-time. So there's a lot of options out there to keep people like my dad and, and your, your mother-in-law out of a memory care. You know, there's some great memory cares and great people that work at them. But, you know, for me, I'm just— I'm happy with where my dad is right now.

That's wonderful.

Well, yeah, I guess the last thing I'll say, if there's anything else you want to share, Dan, please do. And let people know. I mean, you already have a lot, but let people know where to follow you on TikTok.

Sure. My— I'm @dcellnorcal on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. YouTube's probably your best— DCL, NorCal, 1434— probably the longest videos and, uh, the best place to see the, the content in, in longer than 30-second clips. But any of those are there. Um, and Tyler, I was— we talked about my dad. I, you know, what you do is interesting. I was a marketing major in, uh— oh wow. So, and I came through in the '80s, you know, and I'm— and I was looking at your page before I got on here. And yeah, I mean, we would have gelled a lot back then. You're dealing with all the books. I mean, I— all the Dale Carnegie with, you know, How to Win Friends and Influence People. Absolutely, dude. You know, Dress for Success. Those were all big deals when I— and I was a marketing major too, so I was very fascinated by your page. I didn't know what content you wanted to get into. Completely, but I was ready to go in either direction.

Oh dude, well maybe at some point if you're willing we'll do it, because that's a whole nother rabbit hole. Yeah, that's another rabbit hole, dude. Books, I can talk books for a long time. Um, but yeah, no dude, thank you so much. And Mom, thanks for joining as well.

Thanks for having me. Of course.

Thank you guys.

Thanks for sharing the story, and, and, uh, it was riveting for me for sure, Mom. Um, You did it, you know, solidarity bump.

Thank you, thank you so much.