Cheryl Hunter : MAGNIFY YOUR MESSAGE : The Tyler Wagner Show #1116

All right, everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today I have Cheryl Hunter with us, so welcome to the show.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

Of course, thank— thanks for coming on. Uh, so if you can start us off a little bit more about you and what you do.

You got it. I am a publicist for mission-driven experts who want to change the world with their brand.

Oh, I love it. That's, that's the perfect one-liner right there. Okay. I have a lot of questions. Let me start with this one. I always, I like to start here is when you were, let's say middle school, like 13-ish or something, where did you see your, your life going? And was it anything of the sort of where you are now and doing what you're doing?

I grew up on a horse ranch in the Rockies of Colorado, and it was so remote that there were no signs of civilization. I mean, it could have been 300 years ago. It could have been, you know, the 1400s. It could have been the 1980s. It was hard to say. But I used to— it was the flyover zone, and I used to lie on my back on the ground in the horse meadows. I grew up on a horse ranch and just look at the planes flying over and think, man, I want to be the girl in the plane looking at the girl lying on the ground. Among the cows and horses. And I thought, man, I'm going to— I'd have to find a way to do something for people, help them in some way. All I really know how to do is ride horses, but I'm not that great. I mean, I don't always win the competitions, so let me figure something out. And so I wanted to get out into the world. It was beautiful to live there as a kid, but I wanted to, as I got older, experience the world, meet people, find a way to be the girl on the plane, right? Helping people. It was— I had no idea what to do. But at that age, 13, 14, like you're talking about, I took a personal day, aka played hooky, and hopped on my minibike and rode to the nearest town that had a store, which is about an hour and a quarter round trip. And I got a Glamour magazine because what else does a 13-year-old look to for advice? And They talked about, hey, they always need models, but you got to be a model in the big city and you got to be this tall. And I was like, well, I'm on the boys' basketball team. I'm that tall. I, I'm going to do this. Where in the hell do they need models? I guess Europe. Fashion comes from Europe, right? I don't know. So I talked my best friend into, hey, this is the plan. We get old enough, we graduate high school. Let's, let's get a bunch of jobs and save up money and go to, go to Europe. And that's what we did. Oh, wow.

Okay. And then tell me what happened after that.

You know, I, this big plan, I, I wanted to find a way to stay. Now it wasn't Europe per se. I just wanted to be in civilization somewhere. Any place other than near Rye, Colorado, you know, half an hour from Rye, Colorado, which was so remote. And I— there, there we are, we get to France. And no sooner do we get there than a man with a big fancy looking camera walks up to me and says, hey, are you a model? I can make you one. Just come with me. Are you my friend over there? Serious? As a heart attack. And I mean, we'd been there minutes. Wow. And I thought, well, hell, this is meant to be, man. Look at this. This is how easy it is to become a model in France, in Europe. Here we are right now. My friend, of course, with a little bit of sanity in her head, says, oh, over my dead body are you going with these two, these two, two men? No. But here's the thing, she wanted to go home after our trip, and I was bound and determined to figure out a way to make somewhere in the big city, you know, somewhere big and active and fun and awesome, my home. And so I ditched her, I went with these men. I thought This is probably not the smartest thing, but I'm a ranch-raised girl. I'm— I know how to wrestle a steer and drive a tractor-trailer, and I'm, I'm smart, I'm strong. I, I was not smart or strong enough for these criminals. They, they were not interested in making me a model. They drugged me.

Oh my God, this girl's crazy.

Yeah, they kidnapped me, held me captive, and tortured and beat me mercilessly. I mean, you can fill in all the gory details with your mind, but I'm there and I'm having— I have no idea what to do, and I'm so naive I keep asking 'When are we gonna shoot the photos?' Yeah, 'When are we gonna shoot the photos?' I, I, I thought somehow, even so, even with all this going on, that somehow they were still gonna make me a model and my dream to live in the big city wherever was gonna come true.

Wow. That is an unexpected turn. That is not— I actually thought that was gonna go in like, you became a model in Paris. That's what I thought you were about.

Well, ironically, I actually did. I mean, for whatever reason, it's so unthinkable, Tyler. I mean, I'd seen their faces, but they decided at a certain point to let me go.

Now How did it end?

Well, like, they— I, I would— they chopped my hair off. I mean, I was bruised and bloody and cut and burnt and just— they drove me to this grassy area, pushed me out of the car, and the ringleader guy, the guy that had come up to me at the beginning with the camera, said darling when I'm lying there on the ground, like I'm his girlfriend. And I look back over my shoulder and he starts taking the photos.

Oh, so he's like, here, now we're doing the photos.

Yeah, here's some photos. Um, so all of this had happened and I was like, well, screw it. I'm— I went through all that to become a model. There's no freaking way. I'm gonna go back to the horse ranch.

Yeah.

And rot away in the mountains. I can't. I was now— it was odd. I thought the whole time I was held captive, I thought, God, just let me be free. I will be happy forever. I will be a good person. I will not be mean to my brother and sister. I will be I'll listen to my parents, all this. I just kept bargaining with God, and then I'm free. And the most unexpected thing happened, which was then I felt captive in a new way. I was captive between my ears, so to speak. I kept recounting what had happened, everything I'd seen and everything they'd done to me. And I kept thinking about how I was going to get vengeance against these men. And I was in this— I, I thought there was no way in hell I could go back to the horse ranch. And so I was like, screw it, I became a model anyway. And I was actually very successful. I lived all over the world. I was the worldwide Coca-Cola girl, and I was in every major magazine franchise. But I was like, I I felt so screwed up in the head. The only way I could figure out at this young age, I'm still a teenager. The only way I could figure out that I was gonna survive was just pretend it didn't happen. Never tell a soul because I thought they would know how stupid I am and how gullible and how damaged and ruined and used up and filthy I am. I can never tell anybody. And so I just would push it down and pretend it wasn't there and it didn't happen and try to ignore all those horrible thoughts that made me feel like I was captive in my own mind. But that just is not a particularly helpful strategy. It's not. You can't live like that.

Yeah.

Wow.

I am like a little stunned right now. I don't, I'm sorry. Obviously like that is just. A terrible— like, I don't know, I'm not sure how to respond to it. It's so crazy, and it's a turn I was not expecting. But I do think it seems like— well, it seems pretty obvious you came out, you know, now everything's good for you. Not that that—

yeah, right. I mean, cut to today, part of what I did to heal was I recognized, look, I'm not the first person to go through trauma. I cannot continue on this path. What did others who went through this do? How did they overcome? And so I made it my job to figure that out. I didn't wanna read it in a book. I needed to be more active than that. It was messing me up in the head on a far too big a scale to sit and just read a book on it. So I started volunteering at old age homes. And there were Holocaust survivors, war vets, people who had gone through unthinkable tragedies. And I just sat there and listened to them. At first, all they wanted to do was talk because nobody listens to people, people who are old. And then, and I didn't have to listen to the conversations in my own head. I could just listen to them. But before long, I could see, wait, there are things that the ones who have lived fruitful, productive lives did differently. And I started to make notes and ultimately codified it into a system that I could follow. And I realized, hey, this is really effective. I think it would help people if I were to help give this away to them and help them with it. And so I started doing just that. I started working with other survivors of violent crime, trafficking, sexual assault, and rape and trauma like that. I mean, it was effective. It was really helpful for them.

Wow. Yeah. Yo, there's so many things here. I'm sorry. Like, I actually, um, uh, oh my God, there's so many things I want to say right now. Uh, one is There— I'd love to— we'll talk after the podcast on this, but we're doing the Sound of Freedom book, and I feel like some connection, uh, here. So there should be something cool there. But also, I wanted to say, I want to know what the system is, obviously. Like, that's the next logical question. So I want to— I want you to tell us that. But I— do you— did you find that it's common? Because I feel like I've watched like a lot of Netflix documentaries and situations like this. That you went through. And it seems very common that the girl, for some reason, like, does not want to tell people. And maybe it's for the reason you said, because it, like, you think people think you're stupid or something. But like, what was it really? Because I feel like my first instinct— I'm not a girl, so I don't know— but if it happened to me, would be like to tell somebody close to me immediately, to like get it off my chest. So like Do you know what the psychology is there? Like, I guess is the question. Why do you bottle it in? Like, why is that the instinct?

One of the things that I learned over time, because I began coaching a lot of people, is that I learned that, like, ultimately I coached hundreds of thousands of people in different contexts. And I'll tell you more about that, but I began to see patterns like this. Also, I do a lot of public speaking and invariably people will line up afterward to talk to me and something will come out of their mouths. I've never told this to anyone before. And I started to recognize that wasn't a me personally, Cheryl Hunter phenomenon. That was a survivor phenomenon. We— there's a very common thread that runs through there for survivors, which is we oftentimes feel culpable. This happened because I brought it upon myself.

Okay.

Also, when these kinds of atrocities are committed to a person, particularly if they're groomed over time, they are— they're trained to understand that sharing about it equals death. To them, to their loved ones, to the things they care about the most, all of that. So, and then there's just like, I'm filthy and dirty, and if people knew the hell that's going on in my head on loudspeaker, they would run from me. I've got to keep that to myself. And then there's also people I hear who don't want to burden their loved ones with it. But there are many reasons, but it's a very common reaction. Later, I ended up getting on TV and I'll share more about that. I became filled with when I could see this education was working for people, this framework to overcome adversity and trauma. I wanted to give it away. And I thought, well, how better to do that than major media? I see people sharing messages and they're, they're, they're huge. They get out in front of millions. And one of my first interviews, somebody said, do you expect me to believe you didn't tell anybody, like, this shit about let's indict the victim?

Yeah.

And I flipped on him so fast. And, you know, it was like, don't you dare— in any scenario, don't you dare ever blame the victim or survivor. I have broad shoulders and I can take it because I have fully recovered. But for everyone else out there listening who is holding their tongue because they think they brought this upon themselves, you've now just sealed their fate and let them know that they're going to be judged in the same way that you tried to judge me for holding my tongue. Don't do it. And it just, it felt so freaking empowering. But I'm, I know this conversation's kind of going over.

No, I love it. This is honestly why I love doing the podcast.

So this is great. I, uh, one of the things I did to heal was volunteering at these old age homes and then codifying what I learned. Another thing I did was I started taking personal development programs because You know, I thought to myself, it can't hurt. They have all these great promises. I'm going to go. And then I took everything I could find and I went back to the companies that offered them. And I was like, I feel really good when I'm here and not so hot when I'm not. What else do you got? And they said, well, you can become trained to lead them. And I was like, I don't think that's what I want to do with my life. But, and they said, well, you're the author of it then. For all the people you lead for. And I was like, oh, that's— I like that. Okay. So I started leading personal development seminars and I did that for, I don't know, 15 years or something. And that's where I started leading group, large group seminars for big numbers of people. But the third thing I did initially, because it was therapeutic, because for the exact reason that you said, just to share what had happened, I started writing. There was nobody I felt like I could speak with in person, but I could have put my thoughts down on paper. And eventually I started writing plays and had them developed by television networks and film studios and started selling TV shows. So by the time I wanted to bring this overcome adversity and trauma framework out to the world. I already wrote network TV at the time, and I thought, man, there are these water cooler moments where, courtesy of major media, everybody in the nation is talking about the same thing. Everybody in the world at one moment is talking about the same thing. What if we used that massive power of major media, harnessed it to talk about things that actually would make a profound difference in the quality of people's lives. And that became my real mission.

Yeah, that's a solid mission because the media, as you know, I mean, or at least I'm thinking like the mainstream ones like Fox and CNN and all those, like You know, it's all kind of the same jazz. I will— I'm actually, I'm very curious. Okay, so a few things. One is that when you went to the nursing homes, that is so cool. I've actually had that idea and I had an idea of doing a separate podcast called 70 and Up where I only interview people 70. Obviously, I think people get what that means. And I think that would be so fun. And just you literally could go and just post up at the nursing home. And just be like, enter. Or, you know, obviously you got to get permission, I'm sure, but you do that and then just say anybody who wants an interview come in and you're just hanging out with these older people. I think that would be the funnest thing in the world.

Like, that's— yeah, I mean, it's a mixed bag, right? Because some have— you can see what a pattern does and like decisions and choices, how they yield dividends at the end of a life. We become— our habitual ways of thinking and acting and feeling and talking become really cemented by the time you are, you know, 70 and up, 80 and up. But God, the things that they've lived through, hearing it firsthand is just extraordinary.

And I feel like there's so much more— like my grandparents, like they're so much more blunt because they're at a point in their life where they're they're tired of like speaking in a way that won't offend people. They're just like, dude, I only got maybe 10, 20 years left. I'm just going to say what the hell I want to say. You know? So like, it's just the best type of conversation. At least that's my experience.

You got that right.

Yeah. That's so cool. You did that. But so what is, and I'm sure you do, but I'm just curious, like, what's the strategy to fulfill that mission? Because I feel like that's pretty— it seems like it would be a hard mission, you know what I mean? Just because you're going up against these companies that have obvious, very obvious narratives that they try to follow. So with your mission, trying to— or maybe you could position it to them in a way like, hey, you can stick to your narrative, but why don't you add in these type of things? I don't know. I'm just curious what your strategy is.

Sure. Well, so just to follow the chronology for a minute, it— I set about to get the work of Overcoming Adversity out to the world. Took me a decade, even though I was a network TV writer. And I thought once I finally got it out there in a big way, I— at that point, I— it hit me. You know what? There's a— industry dedicated to helping people overcome adversity. I'm going to turn this over to mental health professionals who are beautifully equipped to do that. There's nothing that exists for helping mission-driven established experts share their brand with the world. There just isn't because of all those reasons you said, those already pre-existing narratives. If you look at the talking heads that are on TV, it's always the same few people. And I learned that the hard way when I tried to get my own message out there and become one of them. It's like, no, there's already a group of people who comment on those things. Major media is designed to keep you out. So I figured out, well, how in the hell do you get around that? And then what I did was gather a group of the people that I'd become connected with over that decade— producers, directors, journalists, TV writers, etc. And said, "Hey, what do you think about this mission?" And they're, "Oh, I love it. This is what I got into media for in the first place was to help people." So we now encircle these established experts and help them get their message out to the world. So to answer your question, how do you get a message out when these massive platforms have their own narrative? Well, they've got something that is very important to them, which is the needs and wants of their audience. And they want to cater to the needs and wants of their audience. How do they know what the needs and wants of the audience are? Well, what they tune into, what they stay tuned into, what they request and ask for, what they continually seek out access to, et cetera. So if you are an established expert and you can provide value for the audience of that big major media platform, that big major media platform now needs you.

Mm-hmm.

Now, yes, they've got the, the regular panel of experts that comment on that, but if you can provide true value for the audience and you're media trained, you know how to speak in sound bites, you know how to provide a compelling narrative in some way, and you can offer some kind of actionable takeaways for the audience. That major media source and the gatekeepers that are there between you and them, they actually want what you have. Hmm.

Yeah, I was just gonna say, I actually know when I was younger, cause my mom would watch, I would watch Good Morning America and I would notice, I'm like thinking back on it now, they would bring on guest experts sometimes. And sometimes those experts would like repeat, like pretty consistently. Like, it's almost like that guest expert found their place in the yearly media calendar, if you will, or something, and they kept getting invited back. Like, so yeah, if you can do that, like, maybe the first time you get on one of these big TV platforms, you know, there's a lot of pitching and it's difficult, but if you hit it good on that first one, and then, and the audience loves it, then that platform you know, really with not much effort will keep inviting you back. And now you have this like free outlet to spread your message for years or as long as you do it for. Is that how you've kind of seen it happen?

Yeah. If it, so there's, there's a few contingencies in there, right? It's first with, we've got, I don't know, 48 or 50 something gatekeepers that come and work with our clients. So. I hear repeated things from them. I love finding the patterns, as I'd mentioned earlier. And one of the things they say is, hey, I get 500 emails a day. I get 700 emails a day. How in the hell do you break through the noise with that? You think it's hard getting like noticed on social media. How do you, how do you get through to these people? So first you've gotta get through to them. And that includes not doing something dopey upfront. Don't pitch before you're ready.

Mm-hmm.

And if you can get through to them with the right pitch at the right time, and you know, the stars align and you actually get selected for a segment and you knock it out of the park by doing those things I said before, having a compelling narrative, speaking in soundbites, offering tangible, actionable value for the audience, and then being able to communicate all of that to the gatekeeper. Sure, you could get invited back again and again. Now here's the challenge in the scenario you just gave. Let's say you're a, um, a relationship expert, a love coach, and you get invited in for Valentine's Day. What are you going to sit there and wait until Valentine's Day next year? That's a long dry cycle if you're trying to bring clients in, right? That's, that's a, that's a long period of time. So the real game becomes how do you make yourself newsworthy no matter what the heck is on the calendar? That's the real game.

Got it. That makes sense. Um, one quick question and then I wanna, cuz I wanna learn, I know my audience is very interested in this topic, so it couldn't even, it couldn't be more perfect. What are your thoughts overall, like difference between paid media and earned media? Like when you hear, or do you, or let me start here. Do you offer both?

We don't offer both. I'm, we, we just do earned media. Um, because it's, that's just where, where we specialize and what I was able to do in getting hundreds of earned media appearances and also being a writer producer. I know that game and. As do the rest of the people on my team. But look, the difference between earned media and paid media, it's all part of the strategy, right? There's, I think one of the things that people do when you're running ads, and as a business owner, you gotta run ads as part of the strategy, right? But they'll try and triangulate you. Well, who are they? Let me look. Like if it's on social, they'll click on your bio. On your, on your profile, rather the page, the profile, whatever. Check out the bio. They'll see maybe what are your posts? What are you posting? If it's an ad someplace else, they may look up your website. They're trying to see who the heck are you? It's rare. I mean, think of your own experience. It's anecdotal, of course, but if you see an ad, do you not click on the, the profile or the page that ran it?

Normally I do a little investigation. Yeah.

Yeah, there's a little, there's a little recon we're doing there. And paid advertising, it's what you say about yourself. Hey, we're the best podiatrist in the tri-state region or whatever. But earned media, that starts to become what these credible sources say about you. You know, NBC News says You're the expert in fixing arch pain in your foot. It's very different than saying we're the best podiatrist in the tri-state region.

For sure. Yeah. And I think, um, just so you know, uh, and I should have clarified what I was more comparing to is like, so, cause I know companies out there, you can like pay to get TV spots. You can pay to get a blog feature. And I think it's pretty clear, like, earned is always gonna be better. Maybe not always, but most cases I think it will. But have you, do you know—

Are you talking about cheesy infomercials, Tyler? It might be.

I actually don't know really, but I've just, I've seen companies that like, you know, you can pay 'em a couple grand and they'll get you like an interview on like, it could actually be like CBS, but it's like a specific city. You know, or something like that. And I, I don't know, just whenever I've seen those come out, I haven't— it just seems like they don't get a lot of views. But you can also, you can say you're featured on TV, so it's still kind of cool. But earned, I feel like there's a more of an audience, and it's just harder to get earned media.

It's a whole different animal. So paid, paid media in that regard— I thought you meant advertising before, but The points are still relevant. People are going to research you. And then is it just you saying stuff about yourself, or others are saying— are others saying things about you? So, uh, with regard to paid, uh, you know, major media— I, I don't even want to call that major media, but paid, that kind of like interviews— it's just a different phenomenon. People come to us sometimes and they've done, you know, they paid A client recently had paid $25,000 to be interviewed on some show that aired overnight. It may have been a CNBC, I don't know where it was, but one of those, like a cable channel, you know, it aired at 2 AM on a Sunday or something. It doesn't really matter when it airs. People don't always see things live. If you know what to do with it once it actually airs, and I'm talking about earned media, it can live forever. But it's those things that read sponsored advertiser content.

Yeah.

Or that people know, we all know, you turn on a TV show. I remember surfing, I was just channel surfing and my grandma was sitting there and I opened it up on, it was some, some damn infomercial. My grandma goes, why is this so weird? I can't articulate what the hell it is. But she knows it's quote so weird. Well, 'cause they're trying to sell you something, Grandma. Oh, well, are they? Yeah, they're trying to sell you this guy's thing. Oh, that's why it's so weird. We all know when something's paid media in that regard and it's not fooling anyone. And worse yet, the gatekeepers, like I tell you, that are on our team and come work with our clients, They say that whenever they see that, they won't book somebody because they say if you had to get paid media, you had to resort to that, you— why? What are you hiding? Why not just get earned media? They don't realize it's so damn difficult, but it's like, why not just stick it out for the long haul and get earned or nothing?

Yeah. So it can work against you. I didn't know that. That's interesting.

That's what we hear. I hear the same themes repeatedly. That's a biggie.

Got it. Okay. Also, I got to ask because I actually, I really like this guy, Dr. Phil. I am a legit fan of Dr. Phil. I think he's a cool dude. I think he's like coming out with a book or so. I've been seeing him on a lot of podcasts lately that I—

just launched his own channel. Media company as well. That's what, that's what I understand. I've been following him lately too. Yeah.

Okay. Well, I saw on your site you were on his show. So I guess the question is like, what was, what was that like? How'd that go?

It was fantastic. I mean, I'd been a fan forever. I'd love that. I used to say, as Dr. Phil says, how's that working out for you? It's just like, he has these quintessential zingers, these one lines, and I mean, he shaped the way so many of us think with regard to a lot of mental health things. It's just, he's been a real pioneer in that regard. So when I got invited on the show, it was, it was a true honor. And they were originally going to bring me on the, the, he started a podcast. And once I started working with them, they said, no, we want you to do both the podcast and the show. And I had my whole, my own episode. He's wonderful, a true class act. His wife is wonderful. All the people that work there are just fantastic. I mean, I don't mean to sound like, you know, fangirl-like, but I am. There was this moment where he's got this way of pulling out the story, you know, and I'm talking about— I was talking about, uh, the kidnapping, and one of the things I was talking about was that what I'd said to you about bargaining with God— please let me go and I'll— I promise I'll be a better person. And I started thinking about this thing. One of the things, as I was, you know, lying there on the cement and being pummeled and just all these atrocities done to me, I remembered being in the mall with my grandma, you know, the same one who said, why is this show so weird? And she would try to hold my hand. And I was a teenager, so I was embarrassed, and I would hold her hand for like a hot second and then let it go. And Dr. Phil pulled this thing out of me where I'd said, you know, I vowed to God that if he let me free, I would hold my grandma's hand really proudly. And I just got really moved to tears, you know. And by how much I love my grandma and all this. And, and he leans over, puts his hand on my shoulder like to say it's okay, and pulls out this cloth Kleenex. Like, what a class act. Oh my God, it was wonderful. He asked me beforehand, you know, are you comfortable discussing anything? There's— I won't go there if there's things you don't want to discuss. And I said, I'm, I'm here to be of service. You can discuss anything. So he went for the jugular on my grandma. I'm teasing.

Yeah, he just seems like such like a guy that, you know, obviously super professional, super successful and all that, but at the same token, I just feel like he's a guy you could just chill with like at a barbecue and have like a completely normal normal conversation. Like, I don't know, right? It seems so casual, like a just a chill guy.

That's my total impression as well, Tyler. Just a really a mensch.

Yeah, that's freaking cool. Um, well, I guess let's, uh, let's talk a little bit more about the, the business. So like, who, who, who are the people that you mostly help? Do you just— do you find it like, are they a lot of authors, public speakers, like, uh, what have you found so far that is like your typical client, if you will? Or maybe the answer is like, it's really anybody that has an important message that, you know, needs to get shared. And I'm just curious on that.

Yeah. I mean, look, it's definitely authors, you know, as well as anybody with 1.6 million books published a year, you must stand out. You just must. And it's who we help is someone with established expertise. Now, I don't care if that expertise is you went to medical school, you know, you studied it in a book, or you have lived experience, because that is bona fide expertise as well. Whatever that established expertise is, and then there's a way that you help people with that expertise. You've got a proven track record. You have built a brand. And again, is that a, is that a book? Is that a business? It doesn't matter if you've got established expertise, because the media wants experts, right? True experts, established expertise, and a way that you help people with it, and some track record of doing that, because they'll try to vet you in major media. Well, how long have you been doing that? And, and how do you know that? Oh, you Lived through poverty on your own, and then now you help others overcome. Great. And you know, they'll— it doesn't matter what it is. Again, studied expertise or lived expertise, that's all valid, but there's gotta be a way, well, a way that you help people. It can't just be, hey, I lived through this and someday maybe I'd like to help. You have to actually be doing that in order to be called upon as an expert in your field. But if you've got those things, then you've got something that could be incredibly valuable to major media. Now, we, because we're all mission-driven, we only wanna help people who wanna change life, life for the people they serve. So they wanna make the world better through their speaking or their business or their product or service or book. They want to help people. And yeah, that we find like that is the kind of conversation that if you see that on the news, and if you look, as much crap as there can be out there at any one time, there's more and more being added every day where there's an expert who's adding some value.

Definitely. Yeah, I actually— tell me if I'm wrong on this, but I just noticed maybe a correlation here because you said like expert and then also like kind of like proof that you are like you've helped others with it, right? So it almost seems like if you were attempting to sell a media outlet on having you on the show, it's very similar as if you were to like basically sell somebody your services, right? Like, so I just to give like an example, that I obviously see a lot is, so you become a bestselling author, there's kind of like your expert stamp, and then secondarily, you have all your testimonials on your website. And then just those two, and you can do more things, but just those two things alone make it a lot easier for somebody to make a buying decision, right? So is that kind of similar with like a big media outlet making a decision? Like if those two things are in place, you know, higher chance, obviously, but it seems pretty similar of like a selling, selling angle, I guess you would call it.

It's, it's very much that, you know, another one of those themes that the gatekeepers share with us. They say, you know, and I'm talking about a large group of them. I said, we've got about 50 gatekeepers that come work with our clients on the regular weekly. They're here. So one of the things they say is No matter how senior they are in their role, they could have been there for decades. Every time they pitch someone to the show or to their superiors up the food chain, their job is on the line. So if this person comes in and they flub or they start going on a sales pitch or they go off the rails, they make the producer, this gatekeeper, look bad and they can lose their job over this kind of thing. And people do. So this is why you see the same dang talking heads all the time, because they're proven. And so the network or platform doesn't want to take a chance on somebody else because their job is on the line, this gatekeeper. So if you then remove the barriers to entry, just like you're saying, you've got bona fide expertise, you know, truly you're an established expert and you've got a proven track record, you've just removed two barriers to entry. Now, if you've got media already, which is kind of a catch-22, they only want to use me, people for media who've got media. But if you've got media already and you know how to speak in soundbites and you can weave a compare compelling narrative, now you've removed the barriers to entry. You make it easier for them to say yes.

Yeah, that's— yeah, I, I didn't realize. I mean, that does make sense. I feel like that's— it's a little harsh, like their job is. But I guess what the reason for that is, like, if you're gonna bring somebody on, you better vet them, like really vet them. And that's why they probably do it that way.

Um, but that's also why they do background checks. I mean, some of it's like serious. Like, you know, when I did the Dr. Phil episode— sorry for interrupting— but like, they're vetting everything.

Really interesting. I wonder, uh, I guess that makes sense, right? Like, like background— like, why do you think though it's so strict like that?

Well, that was a different animal. That's me having an hour of prime time network television. That's different than just going in for a breaking news segment where you're there for a minute 37. You know, it's just, it's a different animal, but still they want to vet you to know that you're not going to get in there and act like a crazy person.

Yeah.

One of our gatekeepers told us recently she brought in this medical doctor and as fate would have it, their regular medical doctor. Had just retired. And so they were looking for a new person. And as they're doing all the pre-interviews and prep on the soundstage, all of this is going so well that this gatekeeper's higher-ups tell her, hey, it looks like we may have found our next resident medical expert. And she's like, wow, what a feather in my cap. This is fantastic. This is so great, and the person is doing— he's just, he's just— everybody's loving him. And then they go live and he starts going, well, that's why we do this, and operators are standing by. I mean, he didn't really say operators are standing by, but everything else virtually. It's like, here's our website, and here's call now, and all this crazy stuff. And they are literally going, cut, cut, cut, Get him out of here! Get him! And they're shouting to him and his, you know, that IFB, that thing that you wear in the ear.

Oh yeah, the little earpiece.

Cut, cut, cut! And he won't do it. And so they just toss to a different anchor, or toss to one of the anchors, and they just start coming up with the next segment. They go in and edit all this stuff out. Not only is this guy never going to be their resident medical expert, he's now blacklisted from that particular network and all affiliates. I mean, it's a small industry, you know, people move around a lot. That blacklisting isn't something he's ever going to get through. It was just so short-sighted. But the gatekeeper that, that works with us, she had to go through so many hoops, and she started getting like these kind of remedial bookings that she wasn't able to book people. I mean, she was penalized for this.

Wow.

So they most assuredly will vet you to make sure you're— you can deliver and you're not gonna go, you know, off, off the rails like that guy.

So do you think maybe he just wasn't aware? Because obviously, I mean, it's one thing to want to promote your stuff, but like, if I feel like he maybe wasn't aware not to do that prior because that's not even good for him, you know, because now he'll never get on it, you know. So yeah, I feel like he wasn't media trained. Is that—

there you go.

Yeah, yeah, that's probably what it was, because it's not like— I don't feel like he intentionally did that knowing it would backfire. And I guess, is that kind of common on the, the mainstream ones where it's like they really don't want you being all kind of promo-y? Like the basic promo you get is they say your name and sometimes they'll like bar at the bottom will come up, you know, with like name and website, I guess, sometimes. Um, and that's kind of what you get, right?

Well, you get that plus, you know, look, the people that, that we work with have a brand. They've got something they're trying to promote or sell, and there's an ROI from being on major media. It's not just that CBS News says, hey, you're the top divorce attorney in your state, or whatever the heck, you know. It's not just that they say that. You can put that in your, you know, your advertising from here on out, and your header graphic of your website, and your social and bios, and all of that email signature forever. But yeah, you, you— they come to us wanting that, so we've got to be able to deliver that. And if you can— there's a way to deliver a segment on TV and speak to your expertise without blatantly promoing and call nowing and all that nonsense in such a way that you provide such value and clarity for that audience that people beat a path to your door and you've provided such value for the audience. And such value for the media platform because you're serving their audience after all, and their audience reaches out and says how much they love you. Now those people get invited back again and again, and that is what really works because you're top of mind then for that audience. You're positioned not as just one of, you know, hundreds of thousands or or millions of people who does the same damn thing, but you're now head and shoulders above the rest. You're the one who ABC News turns to when they need an expert on the subject.

Yeah. No, and what you said before too, that's one of the key things is the after, like what you do with that media content after, right? And what I've seen work a lot of times is, you know, say you get 3 TV interviews and some featured on some mainstream blogs or something. If you do retargeting ads with that, so like anybody that, you know, I think everybody knows what retargeting is, but so it just helps because if somebody finds you organically, right, and then they see you pop up like, oh my God, she was on Good Morning America, she was on Dr. Phil, and that's like in their feed over a month. If they weren't ready to become your client or, you know, fill out the form to connect with you at first, they'll probably be ready after that 30-day retargeting, you know, like, so that's another way to use it.

That is such a good idea. It's, you know, the first few TV appearances that I did, it was like, you know, oh hey, people would say, oh dang, I'm so sorry I missed it, let us know if you get it again. I was like, oh, it took me 10 years to get on this TV show, they're gonna just air me again. Next Tuesday. What the hell? And I thought, there's got to be a better way. It can't be that I just do one random TV show here and then I'm done forever and nobody saw it. There's got to be a way to leverage that and turn it into something. And so there are lots of ways. It's funny, people come to us often and they say, hey, I, you know, I did an ABC local affiliate in my area, but it was random why they got me on in the first place. I don't know how to get back on again, and not enough people saw it. What I do. So you're bringing up a really good actionable way to leverage that and parlay it into something else. Retargeting ads for 30 days.

Yeah. And even cold traffic, right? Like, if you think nobody really saw your interview, like, or like live, you know, you know who your target audience is. Put that interview in front of all them with Facebook ads or whatever and There you go. Everybody saw it now. Um, well, look, I could— I think you're one of the coolest people, for real. I don't say that at the end of every interview, so I'm being honest about that.

Thank you. I know I threw you for a loop with the kidnapping, but it's fine.

Um, no, I, I mean, right, one of the reasons I love the podcast, because— and that's why when I first started the show, I used to have set questions. And I literally did about 1,000 interviews that way. And I woke up one morning and I was like, I hate my own podcast. That's wild. And then I like, literally, that was the realization I had. And then I was like, from now on, I'm doing full open book because then it's almost like you don't know where everything's going to go. And that's way more fun than robotic set questions. So either way, Um, I want to leave the floor to you. Like, if there's anything we didn't cover, please do. And then, you know, let people know how to stay in touch and stuff with you.

There's, there's a dentist who's one of our clients, and he— Dr. Michael Hutchison— and he created a mouth guard that prevents concussion. And it's patented. It's like proven to be effective in like 90% of concussions. But he, he— the, the reason I'm bringing him up is he came to us. The, the mouth guard goes on the bottom jaw, and if you've ever watched like the NFL or a boxing match, they all go on the top jaw. And when he first started going to meetings to pitch this and, and talk to people about how to bring this out to the masses, you know, kids playing sports, adults playing sports, anybody who might get a concussion. He was laughed out of meetings. People would say, wait, don't you know anything? Have you never seen the NFL? It goes on the top jaw. Yeah. Yeah, guy, what are you doing? Exactly. What do you think the NFL has such a high concussion rate? No, it actually goes on the bottom jaw and here's why. And he came to us and was just kind of at wit's end. How do I, educate the audience? How do I let people know? And eventually he got on tons of TV and is now in it working out a deal with our nation's armed forces to give 100, get 125 enlisted women and men these so they don't have concussions. And he's got him on big, huge pro athletes and stuff like this. But wow. At first what he'd said was I went to, you know, dental school and found this, this, this idea came to me about preventing concussions. And I studied the brain and I built this mouth guard and I, and I manufactured it and beta tested it and got it to work and got it patented. And all of that was less work than letting the world know. That I have it and why, and that it can help.

Wow.

And I say that because if you're feeling like, what in the hell? I've done all of this work to build a better mousetrap, to do something better or different or workable. That everybody else thinks is crazy because what I do is so cutting edge or different or helpful or something. If you solve a problem that other people don't, you're not alone in feeling like, why am I banging my head against the wall? Why is this so hard? It is hard. Major media is designed to keep you out. but it's also the best way to get your message out there and be edified and positioned as the expert you truly are so that you emerge as a category of one. So whether or not we ever work together, hell, I figured it out. It just, you know, you can throw a decade at it too. You can, it can be figured out. but don't give up. If you've got something that is truly revolutionary and better, people need you and they're out there right now praying for your solution. Don't give up until you reach them.

Thank you again for coming. Do you want to share website?

Oh, CherylHunter.com, C-H-E-R-Y-L-Hunter.com. And Cheryl on social media. Tyler, excuse me, whoopsie, stepped on your line.

No, no, all good. I really appreciate