Rick Jordan : UNLEASH YOUR MOST POWERFUL SELF : The Tyler Wagner Show #1119

All right everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today we got Rick Jordan with us, so welcome to the show, man.

What's shaking? How you doing, Tyler Wagner Wagner?

Very good, man. Pumped to have you here. If you can, yeah, just start us off a little bit more about you and what you do.

That's cool that you just start into it. It's like I get so many people that read the bios, you know, and my bio is so well crafted by my team. I'm like, and it changes without my without me knowing too. Yeah.

You know why I don't? I used to do that and then I like would mess up like one or two words like every time and then I'd have to do a retake. And so I'm like, you know what? Who is better at doing their intro than the person themselves?

Right? That's funny. I love that.

I just dish it off to them. That's what I do. Yeah.

I also have the, I'm not even talking about myself yet, but I do the same thing on my show, right? I'll read the bio and then like halfway through it, I'll like read the name and then sometimes I won't even read the last name. I'll be like, you know what? I'm just going to stop and have you say your name because I don't know how to pronounce this. Yeah.

Yeah, that happened to me a lot too.

Oh, that's great, man. That's awesome. But Rick Jordan and Tyler Wagner are pretty easy to say. So I think we got that going for us today.

That one I got. You make it easy.

That's hilarious. All right. Who am I? I am a speaker. I am a coach. I am an AI and cybersecurity expert. I actually am the CEO of a public cybersecurity company. And I also love scotch. I'm a lover of scotch and I live life all in. How's that for a bio?

Dude, that's perfect. And that's actually the name, I think you have a podcast, right? Is it called All In?

There is, yep. All In with Rick Jordan.

Yes. Okay. Yes. That I checked out prior. So, okay. Normally I start things off this way, so sometimes I veer off, but I think it's good to start off here. Is when you were like middle school, did you foresee yourself doing like anything like this? And obviously probably with the AI.

Middle school, I was going to be a tornado chaser. I love that. Yeah, I love talking about that. Like, meteorology really, really just intrigued me. And, you know, when I was 7 years old, I started looking into tornadoes, specifically tornadoes. I don't know why, but they were just always interesting. You know, I ended up being able to fulfill that a little later in life because I got certified by the National Weather Service as an advanced trained storm spotter. So I got like the backdoor number to report stuff and all that. But it's always been an interest, man. And it's, uh, it's still— it's, it's something that is fascinating to me, that, that's powerful, that could be majestic, that has the, the opportunity to completely destroy things. But then it's also like, on the flip side, it can actually— like, when it's in the open plains and it doesn't touch people, it can actually like rejuvenate soil, you know, and stir things up. So it can almost like create life in that, in that way, or change the environment in sort of a positive way depending on where it is. It's just so interesting to me. And I mean, overall, let's— generally speaking, severe weather is severe weather. And it's actually kind of tragic for a lot of people, you know, but it's— they're glorious to watch, especially when they're out in the open. But then at the same time, it's like, that's a danger to humanity. And this has been a theme through my life. It's like, I love being in a position of being able to protect people, right? And look out for other people. It's just something that really fulfills me. So I see something like that. It's like, well, I can go out there. I can be safe. I can know exactly where it's going. And I can also warn people ahead of time so they can take safety precautions.

Yeah, man, I could see that would be quite the adrenaline rush. And you add some scotch in there.

I've never been chasing while drinking. I'll say that. Although, well, I guess I can't say that, you know, because it's not intentionally because I mean, when these things happen, they just happen, right? Tornadoes and I've done this. My daughter, I think she was 10. She's 16 right now, but she was 10. And it was just her and I at home. And there was severe weather coming through the suburbs of Chicago where I live. And I'm like, get in the car, we're going. And she's like, what? I'm like, yeah, we're going to go find it. Then she starts bawling all over the place. And I'm like, I'm trying to calm her down. When we finally got to it, right? At that point, it was just a funnel. It already lifted, but we were watching the rotation to see if something would happen. And I'm like, it's actually safer here, like being this close to it with somebody like me who knows what they're looking at, than actually just sitting in our house and just waiting in the basement for something to potentially hit us. I'm like, right here, right in this spot, we are 100% safe. Sitting in our home just waiting, we would not be 100% safe. And from— she started to calm down when she saw it. And that was the thing, she's like, wow, that's pretty interesting. Then I started teaching her about it. You know, and it was a lesson a lot about fear too. You know, I go into a lot of inspirational motivational stuff too, but it's like fear is a lot— fear is based in so much unknown, you know. And the only way— a lot of times there's really two ways, that's it, to resolve fear in your life. One is to actually do something, like take some step in some direction, right? And the— or the second is to gain knowledge, you know, to find out all the information you possibly can to see if your fear is even justified to begin with. Because what you're fearful of is probably something that you don't even know a lot about, you know? And that, that, dude, that could be relationships, it could be jobs, it could be tornadoes, severe weather, it could be anything, you know? But in that moment, it's like, now she's calm, dude. Totally calm. I mean, 6 years later. But in that, she just was able to come back down to a baseline and then watch and allow me to teach her about something, and that completely alleviated all of her fear.

Yeah, I think a lot of times fear is something that we like It's something we create in our minds, but it's not actually there in reality, you know, like, and it's always a few actionable steps away from the fear being eliminated, right? Like, I don't know, a good example is like stand-up comedy. Although I have heard from stand-up comedians that every time they go up, they're still a little bit nervous. But when you want to do it, before that first time, it seems like unimaginably risky and nervous. But then after your first few times. I think it's just also getting used to the fact that a part of the process of stand-up comedy is just kind of sucking every once in a while, if not at all in the beginning, most of the time getting bad response from the audience. And then eventually, after like the 100th time, you have a good set or whatever, you know, for sure. It's just kind of part of it.

I was— I did stand-up once, like publicly once, and it was, uh, it's like go big or go home, right? I did it. It was a CEO stand-up challenge, and I, I played played Broadway. I can legit say I played Broadway in my life because it was at Caroline's in New York on Broadway where I did stand-up. I did a 12-minute set. I hired a coach for it, you know, like 6 weeks prior. He helped put me my set together. He's a Vegas headliner, Matt Kazam. Awesome dude, by the way. You know, I don't think he actively plays anymore, but this is kind of what he does. I wanted to do it because, one, I had never done it before. Two, I knew it would just level up my ability as a speaker in general. 'cause I learned so much about even like the art and science of comedy through going through this with them. But I remember there being moments, one specifically where I didn't get a great reaction from the crowd. And it was, I was talking about some of my elicitation and tradecraft training from the CIA and talking about, it's like, not only can I not lie, like I can't, like seriously, like doesn't compute with me, you know? It's also I can tell when people are lying because I've been trained that way. So the joke was, it's like, guys, imagine, imagine if you found out that your wife was faking it every single time. And it was like, I even put that comedic delay in there. I thought it was funny, right? Especially as you put that like every single time, you know, you know, and it wasn't that, that great. But then it's like in the moment, I also adapted, you know, because 'Cause I'm looking out, I'm like, you know, and I'm looking, I'm like, come on ladies. I'm like, I hear that's a thing. So then I'm ad-libbing. I'm like, I hear that's a thing. Is that a thing? It's not a thing with me, I know that. But is it a thing with other people? You know, I thought it was freaking hilarious 'cause this is my ad-lib point 'cause I didn't get the reaction. I'm just playing into it now, you know? And as I keep going, I'm like, come on, give me, is that a thing? I'm like, guys, have you heard this? I'm like, I don't know, but that guy right there, You know, I just made him think he's making eye contact for the first time tonight. And he's sitting there with his girl, you know, and I'm like, that, that stuff wasn't planned, you know, but, but that's some of the cool stuff that I learned. So it's like, even in those moments with standup, like you're saying, where it's like you go up there and you suck, you can still make something kind of cool out of whatever you suck at.

Yeah. I think if you're good at improv, then you can turn it into something good, even if it's going bad, which it seems like. That's kind of what happened. Not that it was going bad, but that's what happened in that scenario. Well, I think the next natural question obviously would be like, what's the CIA story? Because now I'm curious about that.

I opened that can, didn't I?

Yeah, yeah.

So I didn't know. Yeah. When I went back to like the theme of like protecting people, right? Because after the middle school thing and getting into my teens, I wanted to be a cop. I became a cadet in one of the local police forces, you know, so I was out there, you know, I actually got to take physically take down a couple guys, you know, and like they showed me techniques. We got to do building searches, you know, and I'm like, this is what I want to do. So I was going to join the Marines, and my thought was, that's my trajectory. I can do 4 years as military police, and then I've got my in to any law enforcement agency I want. It ended up that I was rejected from the Marines because of asthma, like during middle school and younger. I'm like, well, that doesn't work. But then later on in life, it kind of came full circle and I ended up being a partner. I bought a 50% stake in a private protection agency, you know, like guns and guards, you know, celebrity protection, you know, high-value asset like diamond transfers, that kind of stuff. Stuff you would have to carry for this public officials. And when I went into that, I was trained by the CIA agents from the CIA that we hired for some of these things like elicitation. And because we were higher end, right? Like premium boutique style services. And so a lot of the things that we did, you know, we were even contracted at times, the company was contracted at times for like perimeter protection when government officials would fly into Chicago. You know, you'd have like the Secret Service on the government officials, but then they'd hire private contractors like us, you know, at the top tiers to actually cover different points around the city. You know, so you'd have to strap on, you know, a vest. You'd have two pistols in your vest. You'd be walking around with a shotgun or an AR, you know, it's a lot of that stuff. But then some of it was investigations, which is why I went through the CIA stuff, which was elicitation. That's the art of being able to extract information from somebody within like just a conversation like this, right? You know, to ask the right kind of questions. You know, a lot of it's kind of based in like, just different word patterns, you know, and different ways to tell stories, different ways to pose specific statements, you know. And the other part was surveillance, you know, which when I saw that, I'm like, you know what, I already have this IT company, this cyber company. This is like kind of a collaborative part for this too, because we can tell it's like identifying what some hacker is going to do next, you know, when they're trying to get into your system is very valuable. Like if you can cut them off. You know, because it's almost like a cat and mouse game. Or if it's like an insider threat, which happens if somebody is trying to pull data off of servers or something like that, it's like, what's their motivation? Where's this data going before you actually catch them red-handed, so to speak? Yeah. So it was very, very valuable, man. And it's, it was just another thing to add to my skill set. But it was cool because we did this out in the middle of Utah and it was for a couple of weeks straight, like, like hardcore stuff. And then also continuous training after that. You know, through the town, you know, it was a, it was a lot of fun. I was going like 125 miles an hour down the main street in the, in this little town, you know, when it's only a 25 mile an hour, uh, speed limit, you know, and you know, you, you'd get 3 times, like the local police would, would stop us somewhere and it was never like, you know, cuz then we'd show, show the official government paperwork, right? The identification from the people that were there. And it turned quickly from, we're going to arrest you into, hey, can I, can I do this with you? You know, from the, from the local police.

Wow.

That's, yeah. And it's, uh, but it was, It was pretty awesome. I learned a lot there going through that time. That was like a 4-year period of my life. Not too long ago, you know, from like 2016 through 2020. So not too long ago when I had ownership in that company. It was pretty cool, man.

So 2 questions there. I'm going to try to word these so that, because how you ask the question determines how you get the answer. So I guess first kind of general question is like, what was it like? What were the CIA guys like? I know that's not the best question ever, but do you know what I'm trying to ask? Like, were they just kind of like, would you, uh, uh, describe them as kind of like normal guys that you could have a beer with at the bar, or like, were they just something different about them? You know, it's just so mysterious when you hear CIA. Like, nobody, I feel like, really fully understands what it is. Like, how do you even get in the CIA? Like, not— I'm not asking you that, but I just mean, you know what I mean? It's so underground, I feel. So I don't know, any input on that?

Yeah, a lot of, a lot of it is. I, I could see it being different in, in different settings. But in the setting that I was in, there was already like mutual trust that was established. And so it wasn't, it wasn't like going in cold, you know, it was referrals like other people. So you talk about underground, I guess it's kind of would be that way in actuality. It's like it kind of like he's okay, you know, Rick's okay. He's on our team. That stage was set ahead of time to where by other people that had been through this already, you know, to, and just through what I had. And then plus I had the background already too, man. You know, and it's, you know, plus having the private protection agency, you know, even being a police cadet at some point in time, but then also in cyber because a lot of cyber is forensics. So it's a little different and it's not like what most people like, they'll get recruited by the agency when they're young, you know? So I was, what was that, 2016? So that was 8 years ago. I would've been like 36, something like that, which is kind of older to start in something like that. But it was, It was cool because it gave me a lot of skills. But those guys, yeah, I mean, we had dinner at night, we had some drinks. It was, uh, it was for the most part normal, you know, with the exception of like, with the exception of understanding that you actually had the ability to not get caught, so to speak, or have anything pressed against you with those kind of credentials. And I never gained actual CIA credentials. I want to be clear on that, right? Because I was training as a contractor, you know, that's it. But there were certain things that I needed to know in order to do that. You know, I was never recruited, and I don't know even know if I would consider it, man, because there's stuff that came up after that that was possible, you know, for contracts. I'm like, I got kids, you know, if there's not like a clear plan for extraction, I'm not getting into this. Yeah, but it did help hone up a lot of things, man, especially being able to read people. It was pretty cool.

That's my next question. So, and I don't know how much you're able or willing to share, like how that all goes, but like one of the things that you said of, I think you said the ability to know when somebody's lying, like, is there any easy to explain things around that? Like how you pick up on stuff like that?

There is. If somebody doesn't directly answer your question, that's a big one. You know? So if you ask a question and it's, uh, if somebody's answering with a question, you know, then it's a deflection really, because they don't want to answer it, you know. So it's like, or if they make a statement that diverts away from something. So if you ask, it's like, we already had this conversation. If somebody answers that way, it's like, well, I don't remember it, you know. What was your answer? You know, and it's not, it's not what is in that circumstance. You heard how I said that, right? It's not, you don't ask them what is the answer, you know, or like present tense, what now? You actually ask in past tense. If they say something like that. Like, what was the answer? And then if they say that, you can say, oh, that's cool. So what is it today? You know, what are you thinking today? Like, you're trying to correlate those two things. Is it because anybody who's not lying, like, it's, uh, there's nothing to hide behind, you know? So if you, if you can just simply say a yes or no, you know, that's a different story, you know? But also, if somebody's doing that and they're like literally staring you down as they're doing that, Too much eye contact is actually unnatural, you know. Too little eye contact is that— too little eye contact is unnatural, you know. It's like shifts in their body too. If they're answering the question and they do something like that, you know, it's all these little things. It's not any one thing, but it's looking at those kind of holistically to see if there's patterns is what they're— and what there is, you know. And sometimes, I mean, I'll ask questions like— you hit the nail on the head. It's like depending on how you ask the question determines the answer that you're going to get.

Yeah.

So there's ways it's like sometimes it's been natural for me to do that years to where if I don't, if I don't get enough clarity and this is well-intentioned, if I don't get enough clarity by the answer that I got from my first question, I will rephrase the question. So in essence, I'm kind of asking the same thing, you know, but just to, to, to get what I'm looking for out of that answer, not, not to have them change their answer. In that. But it's like, if I didn't— if I wasn't clear in that, because when you ask it, people hear things different ways, you know. So it might not be that they're lying, but the way that they answer could determine if they are or not, you know. And then plus, if you're not clear on something, you can rephrase that question. And this is the word stuff I was telling you about, you know, to where it's like they will— they will then— it almost like shuts down the barriers, right, to where they can feel safe. So they might not have given you the whole answer the first time, but then it's like rephrasing the question will allow them to feel safe so that they do give you the whole answer. This will help in relationships too, brother, for real. Because, and that's why I say like it's well-intentioned, because if you're like in an argument with your partner or something like that and you ask a question, the way that you ask questions can cause reactivity or defensiveness in your partner. But then if you can rephrase it to a point to where, and I can't think of an example right now, you rephrase it to where it doesn't seem like they need to be defensive, that you're actually there in a supportive way, you know, you're there just to understand clarity and be on the same page, then the walls come down and they go, oh, this person's on my side, I'm safe here, you know. So, so some people might get annoyed from like the same question over and over again, but if you phrase it the right way, it's like, I'm just looking for clarity, you know, I just want to be able to— I want to understand everything about it, that way I can be as supportive as I can for you.

Got it. No, that's super helpful. And yeah, that is interesting. I— some of those things you said, I've, I'm like retracing like memories of conversations.

Yeah.

And, um, yeah, those are— I think one too, which is kind of what you said, but it's like when you ask kind of a simple question and then they like, they respond kind of in a frustrated way, like, I've already answered that. Yeah. Like You know, that is— that would only— you would only think that would be because they can't remember what they previously said. And that— and the only reason you would need to remember something is if you weren't honest most of the time, probably. Yeah, right. Because you don't have to really remember the truth a lot of times. It just naturally comes out.

That's very true. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, uh— that's why it's— I was adjusting my headphones there. Somehow they just got a little loose, but I, uh, it comes from, from that safe space too, you know, and that's a lot. So it's a lot of the stuff that I learned I like to use very, very ethically, you know, not in a manipulative or controlling fashion whatsoever. I like to use it very ethically because it's like I've, I've got a, a piece of me, a big piece of me that truly wants people to succeed, you know, truly wants people to, to get everything they want in life. Oh, if I can help that by, by phrasing questions a certain way, you know, or helping them feel safe in the space by using words from the training that I've, that I've received, then I want to do that, man. Because then it's like, if we can get down to the core issue, let's be real, right? Because it's like in anything, even like job and employer, you know, employer-employee or, or relationships or, or with your kids. You know, when I say relationships, not just a partner, but also with your kids. There can be defensiveness, man, you know, and it's just how the disagreement goes. So if there's a way to cut through that, like, dude, I'm up for all the tools in the world that I can learn. So because a lot of people, when you get to that mode, when emotions are involved, you kind of live on a surface level and you're not— you're talking about the emotions in the moment and like the hurt in the moment, not the thing that actually caused it. So if you can uncover that and unmask it, dude, It's like, that's efficiency for me. And it's like— Absolutely. And I like the efficiency because I legitimately care about what's beneath the surface.

Yeah. Do you have any— because I have some friends that have done this and I've thought about it, but I think it would take a lot of work. But do you have any thoughts on like NLP or is that kind of similar type of stuff?

It's similar stuff. Yeah. I've taken NLP courses too. I'm certified at a basic level for NLP. And it's a lot of that was years later. This was just 2 years ago when I went through that. That was like, that was like 8 weeks. It was sort of like a boot camp. It was like, dude, it was intense. It was like 5 days a week almost, you know, to go through, to go through this stuff. And because I'm a speaker on stage too, man, it's like I speak in entrepreneurial events. It's not just cyber events and all that stuff. I speak at entrepreneurial events. I want to see people move from A to B in life. It's like there's ways you can even move crowds. And so I did it from like almost like in they called it ironically like an influencer perspective, you know, not like Instagram influencer, but like, like legitimately influencing lives to be better. Right. Cause I, dude, I would love it to be able to just say one thing to somebody and have them break through whatever that self-limiting belief is and then make the decision they need to in their life is completely changed for the better from that point on. It's like, yes. You know, and sure, there's a little bit of ego in there. There absolutely is, to where it's like, that's awesome that I did that. But it's like, I did that. Look at how amazing they're going to be in life now. Like, that's truly the fuel behind it. And it gives me fulfillment to be able to be that person that helped ignite that spark for them. You know, so NLP can absolutely help. And that's when we talked about tools, dude. That's a tool, bro. It totally is. Yeah. So if that will help you like establish better communication, it's absolutely fantastic. You know? And again, it's, it's no manipulative tactics whatsoever because the intention is just to say, if I can get past that surface level and get deep down to the core issue, then we can actually make some progress on something. Then magical things can happen. It might be the first time I've ever said magical things.

I don't know how that came out. Well, maybe I gotta do it.

I would encourage anybody to do that, man.

Yeah.

By somebody who's very, very good because it's, uh, you can only get through some of the, some of the initial things, but there's really deep stuff in NLP. It's pretty cool.

Yeah. Um, so I wanted to also ask you like more about your, your journey in entrepreneurship. So like before you had this public company, you know, what were some of the successes and failures? And then like, I guess, how did this, you know, ultimate— not end success, 'cause I'm sure, you know, you have a lot more things to do, but like, how did you end up here and what were some of the failures and successes prior?

Uh, some of the failures I, I can start back, you know, I think I just talked about this the other day too. And I, I, I don't talk about this a lot, but it was, uh, it's not regret, but when I, um, when I was 21, I got married just before I turned 22. And it's like, even in that point, I always wanted to start something that was on my own, you know? And I always had this thought in my mind. It's like, when I start something, I want recurring revenue. So at 21 years old, I'm thinking about this, like, what do I do? So I'd already been in tech for a while and I'm like, how about web hosting? Because you're talking about like, that was 2001, you know? So that was like a big deal, like a newer thing back then was having your own website, you know, and companies putting up their websites. You know, the dot-com era was just 2 years prior in 1999, you know, before that whole crash too. Things were, things were fairly new at that point. I remember learning about Google for the first time in like the year 2000, you know, because it was just being released, you know, that this is, I'm like, this is it. But then I found out real quick that even that market was like saturated, saturated. But even more so, it was very, very commoditized already, like low margin stuff. You know, there wasn't a lot— you, to allow accessibility to everybody, you could not provide, or provide that service at a low price. It— you needed to actually do that but not make much money off of it. So I mean, you talk about a mistake. I think it's good to have volume plays like that, but when you're bigger, you know, because right now, like, after taking a cybersecurity company public, we've done premium services, high margin, high tickets for the longest time. And now it's like, now my mission is there because I've got a foundation built, but now I want to release it to a lot more people. And in order to do that, we have to figure out a way to make a little bit of money on a lot of customers, you know, rather than a lot of money on a little bit of customers. Yeah. So it's like, we'll, we'll keep that. But that was like a lesson in business that I had way back then. So it's like, that was my first business, dude, that I just straight up shut down. Like, done. I might've made, no joke, like $300, if that. Over the course of the year. Yeah, it was, it was just, it was stupid. But then, uh, I was working for Best Buy part-time, you know, just to get the discount there. I love that. And then they knew my background in tech with, uh, servers and enterprise stuff, and I became the first Geek Squad agent in Chicago.

The very first one. Wow. Okay. That's actually cool. I think that's cool.

I got photos, man. I got photos. I also had a, a big-ass gut at that point too, you know? It's, uh, I look very different these days than I did then. You know, this is by far— people say I'm in the best shape of my life, but it's like I've got the most fricking muscle mass I've ever had in my life. You know, so it's a different scenario. I, when I did that, I was there for a few years. Also helped Best Buy write the sales playbook because I'm a good salesperson. I had history in that too. You know, especially like the upsell, the art of the upsell. And right when my twins were born, they eliminated this business-to-business division. In Best Buy. And you talk about like some of the failures. Here's where I looked at this as a failure on my part, not on Best Buy's part, is I did not understand the interpersonal dynamics of a large corporation. You know, and even so, like the relationships that's required between everybody else. The biggest lesson that I took away from that is like, I could fricking rock it, you know, on my own and be like one of the brightest lights, be one of the most rising stars. But you can only get to a certain point without having those relationships with other people. Yeah, and that's what I did because I did— I was posting on big numbers, I was making waves, I was doing all this stuff. But when it came down to the— that division being eliminated, I was at like a manager level within Best Buy. Yeah, they, um, they came back and said, well, we don't have to let you go, like laying off all these other people, but you could be an assistant manager in one of our stores. I was like, are you kidding me? And then I went out like for some other stuff, like some Geek Squad, going back to Geek Squad, like I could be a district manager for Geek Squad because they already offered me the number 2 role after I rolled out Canada with Geek Squad. Literally trained the whole country, dude, in Canada, because I was that freaking good. You know, literally it's sales and communications. I trained the whole country. I come back, they offer me the number 2 role. I declined it just because I didn't want to move to Minneapolis. That's where the corporate headquarters were. You know, so coming back to it just like 3 years later, I'm like, guys, I'm like, look at everything that I've done, you know, and look at the stuff that was offered to me prior. It's like, clearly I could stay in Chicago and run Geek Squad for this entire district here. And they're like, well, we already gave that to somebody else. And the reason they gave it to somebody else is because that person had already established relationships with the people that were making decisions. Or you could call it politics if you want to, internal politics. But to me, if I called it that and be like, "Ah, internal politics sucks," I think that's dismissing my role in what I had created because I had isolated myself and said that, "You know what? I can do this on my own. Look at how awesome I am." You know, almost like an ego thing, and that was it. But the worst part, dude, the worst part, and this is like awareness, right? 20 years later, the worst part is that I was right, is that I had the talent. I could do all that stuff on my own, you know, which just fed everything even more. I was like the baseball player, the basketball player, the football player that's the best person on the team, the most talent, the best skill set that everybody hates. Yeah, because I did not form those relationships with other people that were supposed to be on my team.

Yeah, that's interesting. That's, that's actually a huge lesson right there. Like, because you would think, I mean, the world— I guess, how do I wear this? Like, the world doesn't function necessarily as it should, in a sense. Meaning, like, and now even more so, I think, with big corporations. Like, you know, people are supposed to be hired based on their abilities.

Yeah, right.

And it should kind of just be based on only that. And you're upleveling within that corporation should just be based on are you better than any other person available at that position, right? But that's not how things function, unfortunately.

Yeah, exactly. I thought at that point that's how it did, you know? Yeah. And like I said, I was right too, dude. Like, I was literally like the best at what I was doing, you know? But that does not matter when it comes to moving together as a whole.

For sure. Well, I'm sure that helped though, because now that you have your own company, I'm sure that helped a lot with like leadership skills.

Totally. There's no way that I was able to take a company public without other people, you know, because it's like I'm still talented. I've got a lot of talented people that work for me, you know, but it's without the help of other people, especially those that have been there before, it's impossible to get to where you want to go.

Yeah. No, I agree. And so what was— okay, so that was the second I think that was the second thing. I'm sure maybe you skipped over or there was other things in there, but—

Maybe failures, successes.

Yeah.

Launched ReachOut in 2010 because I started as an independent consultant for a couple of years. I made some good money, but still with the goal of recurring revenue, man, that's like the best thing in the world. Legitimately, it is. You can depend on it for cash flow, for any kind of expenses, and still with like a lifestyle. So it's like the biggest thing looking back, it's like if it's a failure that's overarching is hesitating. And that's why I've got these 3 words that I kind of live by now, which is calm, confident, never hesitate. You know, it's— when I look at that, I did a, you know, it was like 6 years until I actually started my thing after failing in that web business, you know. Then after that, when I started Reach Out, it was another 6 years until I actually decided to make the steps to grow it beyond a lifestyle business, you know. So it's like I look at that and it's like I could have accelerated those things. And I, for people listening, watching, it's like there's nothing wrong with a lifestyle business, right? There isn't. If that's what you want and you can, you can build the life that you desire off that fricking go for it, right? But for me, that's not good enough for me because I'm not fulfilled doing that. You know, but it's easy to get lazy in those places or complacent and comfortable as some people put it, where it's like, what am I doing? This isn't really what my purpose is. My purpose is not to just help me and just a couple other people. My purpose is to help a lot of these other people. And by default, then that helps me, you know? So it was like, it was like a reversal thing that I had going on. And that's what caused that hesitation, that delay in saying, you know what, I think this thing really could be something big. And it's not even like this thing that can become something big, which it is becoming something very big. It's literally like anything could be that way. The thing that had to change was not the thing that I was doing. The thing that had to change was me.

Yeah. So what is, when like taking a company public, I mean, for most entrepreneurs, I think that just seems so out of reach.

Yeah.

So like what was that process? And I know that was like kind of for you, the difference with lifestyle and then taking it very seriously. I had a similar thing with my first company. I was not at that scale, but similar when I was in my early 20s. I was just like, I could live like this forever and work 5 hours a week and it would be awesome. But then you just feel like, at least for me, and I think it's probably similar to what you felt, I just felt like something was missing though. I was like, I have so much more potential. Why would I just stop now? My highest achievement will be at the age of 21. That's pretty lame.

I love how you look at that because that's, it's like, and that's wasted potential, you know, if you just stop there. And it's, uh, shoot, I'm trying to come up with like a good one-liner for you, but it's escaping me. I've had some others in the show already, so I'm content, you know. But it's a, but it's a, that's like a, I don't know what drives that, you know, because individuals will get to a certain point and it's like, I know I had a quote that I put up there before. It's like, we were never meant to just you know, go to work, pay bills, and die. You know, there's so much more to anyone's life, not just like you or me, but to anyone's life than just that. And it comes across in many things. It doesn't mean anybody has to take a company public to do more than that statement. You know, it could be— for a lot of people, it could be like starting a community thing, you know, or being a big brother or a big sister in that organization to one kid. You know, to impact that life because it's like you can influence that life and that person might influence 1,000 people, you know? So it's like your place in this world. But if it's, if it's what, if it's something you can do and you don't, that's the wasted potential. And I have to be around, dude, by people who can be all that they are supposed to be.

Yeah.

Literally people that, that want to be that, that want to be everything they're supposed to be. You know, so it's like I start to focus on that, but then the, the other group that maybe hasn't come to that awareness yet, it's like I used to— oh my gosh, dude, I used to spend like so much time almost like if I had like a, you know, almost like an IV injection thing. I wanted to like go and like take, take all my thought process and everything, like jab it into their brain and be like, like, if you could just tap into this, you'd realize you could change this, and then you could do all these things and all that. But it's like, that was such wasted energy because that individual is not at that point in their journey yet to where they're even open to hearing that, where they wanted to hear that. So now it's like, for the other group, for the people that must be all that they are supposed to be, awesome. I'm going to put a lot of energy into that group that's around me. Those that are not quite at that point in their life yet, hopefully they will be. But I'm okay. I'm content now being like a seed planter because it might take like 8, 9, 10, 13, 27 different seed planters before one starts to grow. And you know what? If that's not me, dude, that ends up seeing that growth, that's okay because I could have been the one that started that process. I'll never see it, but I could have been the one that started that process and awesome for the person that actually gets to fuel that growth in that individual's life.

Yeah, I agree. And I also think too, what I realized is, because once I had started my business and it started to become successful, a lot of my friends were asking me and I was trying to help them, uh, like maybe do their own thing. And these are like high school friends at the time. And then I realized when they didn't do it, I just— I don't know, like, I think the conclusion I came to is even though for people like me and you that strive to be more, and I think once you kind of fulfill all of your personal things, at least in my mind, because money is awesome, but once you have enough of it the pleasure isn't out of buying things for yourself. It's actually using that capital to see life-changing things happen in other people. That's kind of the next evolvement, I feel. And I've been at dinner table. I do a lot of books and stuff for family offices and stuff. And I always find so interesting where whenever I'm at dinner tables like that, that is actually most of the conversation. They're talking about like charities or like trips they're doing to like help or like build schools. And I'm like, you know, a lot of people that aren't wealthy, they think that because they see the rappers or whatever, whatever culture they're tapped into, they think that's what it ends up being. And not to say that wealthy people don't have fun sometimes, they definitely do. But like, it's like, what's funny though is like they're like drinking scotch, but while talking about the next charity that they're going to be helping, you know what I mean? Like, that's Actually what I've noticed at least. So regardless—

It's about conversations in different circles. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like I've seen that stuff too, right? It's like, you know, don't put me around the people that are talking about other people. Put me around the people that are talking about like doing things for those people.

Totally. Yeah. And I think, I'm curious what you think of this is like what I was getting at with my friends from high school is I think some of them I think are happy with staying in the same small town that we all grew up in, having a family, working the 9 to 5. I actually think that maybe they just realized that that's what they were okay with. Or do you think that kind of everybody wants more? It's just some people are not, most people are not willing to take those risks because the fear is too much and then they just settle.

Like, I've, uh, I've seen, dude, I've seen both sides. And I've talked about, like, uh, in the past I've talked about the toxicity of hustle culture.

Yeah, I saw that when I was researching.

Yeah. And it's, uh, this kind of goes along with that because there's a lot of individuals that, you know, they might decide to take the risks to a certain extent in those two groups that you're talking about, like the ones that have the 9-to-5 jobs and all that. But then they're equating like the, the amount of work that they're putting in to their self-worth, you know, which that's the toxicity of hustle culture, you know, the amount of work that you're putting in is that's like your badge of honor, you know. So if either of those groups are not doing that, what I do see for those where you're saying like they just don't take the risks, you know, I think that's like that second category you mentioned. Some, I think, are that way. I really do, to where they're like, man, I wish that I had more. They're the ones that are saying like, I wish that I had more, or they're saying there's no way I'm going to get more, you know. But the thing is, is that they're already aware of something, that they want more. And that's the difference between that group and the other group you mentioned, to where they're just content and they're okay, you know, they're good with working that 9 to 5. They want to stay in the same town. You know, and, and the, the difference is that there's nothing wrong with that group, dude.

Nothing.

Yeah, for real. It's like, that's—

and I thought there was at first, but too—

yeah, that was like self-growth that you and I probably had to go through.

Definitely.

You know, because it's like, well, they're not like me, why wouldn't they want that? And that's like, like, they stabbed to the head with the IV of knowledge that I was like getting at a little earlier, right? It's like, like, it's almost like toxically projecting ourselves onto these people that they should want what we want. Yeah. And that's not just the case. And it should never be the case because that's a problem with us. Like, that's an ego issue too, you know, because it's like thinking that you might be better than somebody else just because you want different. I'm not even saying want more. I'm saying want different. You look at them and be like, why don't you want more? You know, because you're like, here's what more looks like. And but that's in your— that's in your shoes, right? Because for you, more means something very different than what more means to them. Yeah, it's cool because it's like when they say, oh man, I got this promotion at work. I was making $60,000 a year. I got this 10% raise with my promotion. I'm making $66,000 a year. It's like, dude, that's awesome. And it's like, is that what you wanted? Yeah, that's really what I wanted. I've been going for this. I've been studying up. I got a certification for this. It's like, Freaking awesome. You know, a pound 'em and it's like, you worked hard for that. You put in what you needed to, to level up to the point that you wanted to, you know? And then if it's like, you can ask 'em, it's like, have you ever thought about doing this? Not like more, right? But have you ever thought about doing this? Because it seems like you could be something in this area, maybe making twice the amount of money. Like, you know what? I'm okay. You know? And there are people that are literally just like, okay. Because there's trade-offs too, bro, right? I mean, like, like individuals, like executives in my company, it's like you, uh, you have to travel wherever, whenever needed, you know? And it's like sometimes at the drop of a hat, you know, because we've got different offices and all that, you know. They're making six figures, you know, plus multiple six figures, and it's like, that's the expectation. But if that's what they want, that's what they do, you know, to, to gain that, you know. If there's someone that's like, you know what, I'm okay with it, with that, not that, I, I want to preserve a certain type of lifestyle right now, and that lifestyle might be that I'm always home at 5 o'clock. My dad had that, bro. You know, before he died, he was, he was an insurance salesman in the ghetto. He used to say that he had the best part-time job in the world. That was his phrase. You know, I've got the best part-time job in the world because making like a full-time salary, you know, not much. I mean, he might have made tops, you know, for those years, like maybe $40,000 to $50,000 a year. You know, so, so growing up was not very rich monetarily speaking for me. Rich in family life though, dude, because my dad was always there when myself, my brother and sister left for school during the day and he was always home before we got back. You know, that is what he valued and he did not want more than that. And what he did is he gave us an extremely amazing example on what a stable father looks like, you know? And it doesn't mean that you can't be a stable father and still travel and all that like I do. It's like my kids this last weekend did Les Misérables. My daughter was so upset that it was over, you know, like tears of joy, right? And in front of all her friends, she's 16, she comes up to me and she just starts hugging me before anybody else, you know, her dad, a teenager, right? Just like, like gripping onto me, you know? So you can still have that stable father and still do all the things that I do too. But for him, That's what he wanted to do. That's what he knew how to do. And that was awesome for him to have those hours. That's what fulfilled him, to be able to be there every single time I had a baseball game, dude, showing up to every single game, you know, to be there with my brother and, you know, when he would get home or literally drive him to school, you know, so that was my dad. And he's that group of people you were talking about. I believe that he had the skill set, he had the talent. To do as you and I would look at it, or quote unquote, right? But, but that was what he wanted to do in life. And dude, I could not have had a better dad and a better stable home life because of his choice.

Definitely. No, I, I agree. And that's why the word more typically is used as like more money or, you know, more career success in general. But like, everybody's more actually is, is kind of different. And that's where I think The trade-offs you're talking about, they're like actually really big decisions, right? Because, you know, when you have kids, they're only young for so long.

Yeah.

So, and look, if you can have both, even better. And I think that's actually coming full circle to what you said earlier on, like that recurring income, you know, or like SaaS companies, like whatever you build, if you can build something that can actually grow without you having to continuously work 80-hour weeks or whatever, you know, then you get the best of both worlds. But if not, you know, you actually do have to choose, like, am I going to go to all my kids' baseball games or miss them all and run this big company? You know, like, and those are really big decisions. They are.

I've done things, I've made it work. And when people say that, hey, I can't make this work, right? There's no way I can be present for my kids and also be, you know, the owner of a business or whatever, a CEO. I'm like, bullshit. You know, that's, that's, I'm like, here's some examples. It's like, it's not all easy. It's difficult to try to, to make all this work. And there are big decisions, as you say, that come up. I mean, there's a lot of like little big decisions that come up along the way. Like my son had a, I remember had an art show, right? He was in 6th grade and the, at the time he was still going to public school. The high school saw it and said, you need to display this. Right, in the high school art show. And the dude was so pumped. This is my oldest son, Richard. I was away. I was like literally pitching TV producers, you know. I, I arranged it so that I was able to fly out. It was like Atlanta to Chicago, pretty short flight, like 2 hours, right? Fly out, arrive back into Chicago, got to the art show 15 minutes before it started, right? And I was there for an hour for the art show, left right there, went back to the airport, right back to the event where I started pitching more TV producers.

Wow.

That's a lot. So people say, oh, I can't do that. It's like, it's not an if, it's a how.

You know?

And if you can't think about this, and this is where like money comes in, you know, because you'll get, oh, that's like too expensive. It's like, so what? For real. It's like, this is your kid. You can make more money. You can always make more money. And if you're truly pursuing that, especially as an entrepreneur, or as a, as a CEO, you know, or as an owner or somebody that's high up in a company, you can make this work. You know, you just have to kill those beliefs that it's like those normal things, like, oh, I fly out in the morning or I fly out, fly in at night, whatever, whatever it is. It's like you can do a 5-hour turnaround from Atlanta to Chicago and back like I did just to be there for your son for an hour. It's something that was important to him. Not necessarily you, but important to him.

That's huge right there, actually, because no, that, that is actually like kind of the belief that was in my head. Uh, luckily, I mean, all my companies are just like online, but in that scenario, I would have thought that, you know, you would have had to have missed the art show. But actually, even though it seems ridiculous to take that flight, it's really not, and you just make it happen. You know what I mean? Like, that's just what you do.

So exactly. And then even asking like the, like the scheduler, right? For the pitching, it's like, hey, I've got this going on. And you never know until you ask, right? Can we accommodate for this? Like, because my decision is already like legitimate, like this is it. It's like my decision is already that I'm gonna be there for my son's art show. Like that, that's my priority. So can, when you set that framing, like you're already saying, it's like, this is my non-negotiable. For this, you know, can we adjust my schedule with these producers to fit maybe in this later slot in the later afternoon or evening? Would that be okay? And then, you know, most of the time they're gonna be like, okay, we'll see what we can do. You know, because it's not— you're not saying no, you're saying I still want that, you know. But at the same time, I'm setting this framing up. I'm going to go to my kid's art show, you know, because he just got selected for this. Can we move this stuff over? They could have said no. I wasn't running this event. It wasn't my event. The producers could have said, no way, we're not going to take you, you know. But that's not the case. When you just have the communications and set the framing, then you start to be able to actually— some woo-woo people will be like, you know, take your power back, whatever it is, you know. But screw that stupid statement. I hate that statement. It was like, no, it's like, take your power back. How about just expressing the power that you have? Real, because it's, it's you. All these choices are yours. There's some choices that you don't get to make in life, but things like that, that's your freaking choice.

Yeah, and I actually think a lot of in business, a lot of times I would hope that that would be like respected. Like, because what I would take from it, like, say if I was on the other side and I knew that, you know, you're putting your son first before our business deal or whatever, to me I'd be like That's exactly what he should do. I can, you know, I can only imagine if he puts half as much, uh, dedication into this deal as he does with his family, then we're gonna do great things. So heck yeah, like, I should be second. Um, so yeah, that makes sense.

And if they say no, it's okay.

Yeah, and then still it doesn't matter because on your end, you know, your first priority is what it is, and that's what's taken care of. So So yeah, dude, I mean, I could do definitely a part 2 and part 3 with you, but thanks, brother.

It's been fun so far.

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I want to leave it to you. If there's anything else you want to share, please do. And if you are down for a part 2, because I do feel like we could have gone longer. I just, I have another interview in a few minutes.

No, all good, man. I appreciate the invite back on. I'd love to. I mean, we went from tornadoes to spending time with your kids, right? Yeah. Yeah.

That's why I love keeping it open, man. Better though.

Right on. This could be like a 3-hour long show. Yeah, man, I'm up for it. Thank you. I love these kinds of talks. I, I think your questions are great and the open-endedness is phenomenal. I appreciate you having me on, man.

Of course. And what about anywhere you want to share, like where people can stay in contact with you?

Yeah, follow me on Instagram. That's my, my biggest platform that I have, @MrRickJordan. If you want to talk about business, you can DM me there, or you can follow me on LinkedIn. That's fine too. All is good.

Perfect. Sounds good, man. Thanks again for coming on. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks, Tyler Wagner.