Family Ministry That Counts

Hey, this is Tim Pratt Jr. and I want to welcome you to the Student of Life podcast. Listen, we're going to get into so many transferable truths throughout the content of these episodes that I believe God is going to use to help you apply, because he's going to reveal what's already been there the entire time. Enjoy. Yo, what's up? So this is episode 10 of season 4, and just like I told you in the last one, I got a power pack interview for you. Preston Cave, the author of Family Ministry That Counts and Rewriting Father. Listen, I'm telling you, you want to just sit back, relax. If you're jogging, that's cool too. But if you are a ministry leader in any type of capacity, whether it's student ministry, youth pastor, senior pastor, associate pastor, assistant minister, if you lead deacon, a deacon, or whatever, if you serve your ministry in any kind of capacity, or if you're the father, the mother of your home I want to encourage you to really listen to this episode because it's going to bless you as we talk about family discipleship as a whole. With so many strategies out here to reach the youth, Preston Cave is going to bless you. So just like you kind of hear me open up again in the interview, I want you to kick back, relax. Like I said, if you're running, working out, or whatever you're doing, don't miss the gems and the nuggets that he's going to drop within this episode. Enjoy.

Hey, what's up?

So this is Tim Pratt Jr. and I want to welcome you to the Student of Life podcast. And I have a special guest on here that I'm truly honored to have. It's Preston Cave. He's the author of Family Ministry That Counts and also Rewriting Father. And he's a mission and discipleship coordinator at TBM, which stands for Texas Baptist Men. And like I say, I truly believe that you're going to be blessed by the content today. I've read the book. My wife and I, we've kind of went through it, then we kind of went through and also did just some, uh, deep study, deep dive in certain areas that really challenged our paradigm and the way we see ministry, especially being responsible and holding leadership positions in two campuses. And so like I said, the book really challenged my paradigm, and we're gonna let Preston kind of unpack some things that I just kind of came across and was led by the Spirit of God. And so like I say, it is Family Ministry That Counts. It's an awesome book. If you don't have it, I guarantee you, if you take the time to really listen to this interview and kind of unpack some of the things that Preston is going to dive into, I guarantee you, you'll find yourself on Amazon or wherever this book is sold and buying it for you and possibly even getting it to people that are part of your family and student ministry, or just to help lead your family well in general. So that being said, Preston, man, I want to welcome you to the show and, and just kind of, if you want to get anything off your heart— I like, this is just the way I kind of do this podcast, is just raw, uncut, man, very light editing. Uh, I just believe in flowing through the power of God. And so if you just want to have anything you want to kind of get off your heart in this introduction, and then from there, man, we'll jump into kind of, like I say, the first question.

Yeah, well, Tim, first off, thanks so much for inviting me on the show and having me and I'll just say this, you make me sound so much better, so I'm gonna just take you with me wherever I go, and you can just introduce me because you make me sound so good. So I appreciate that. But I want to say this, you have the personality type that seems to be that you may write a book one day, and you're gonna know what I'm about to say. You're gonna know how it feels with what I'm about to say, that it's such an honor that anybody would even take the time to read a book that I wrote. Much less studied it and really digested it the way that you and your wife did and your team did. So I really appreciate that. It means a lot to me.

Awesome, man.

Awesome. When you write your book, I want to be— I want to be one of the first to read it.

Go ahead, man. It's definitely in the process, man. So it's definitely confirmation from the Lord, and I'm gonna say amen. Cool, man. So I truly appreciate it, man. Like I say, uh, just let people know, like I said before we jump into it, when I wrote you on Instagram, uh, you know, I come across a lot of people, man, and I don't try to get into judging them. I just focus on doing the Lord's will. But it's people that you come across that just spiritually, man, and so on and so on, that you just connect with and you just know they're about their Father's business. So like I say, once again, I just want to thank you, uh, so much for that word and just those words of encouragement. Um, that being said, Preston, so man, one of the first things that I, you know, want to get into when we see the shift and just, you know, from people going more into figuring out how to reach the youth and, or figuring out how to do ministry. And, you know, we have all of these type of, you know, resources and people saying this way and that way and so on and so on. But you have took time to just really dedicate yourself and, and focus on the area that is very important. And kind of like I said, one of the first ones I want to get into is that what does a successful family ministry look like for just a local church in general, no matter if it's small, you know, midsize, or big?

Yeah, well, first thing that you probably noticed about this book is that it really is applicable to a small church, a medium-sized church, a large church, megachurch, because it's just principle-based in a lot of ways. But to answer the question, what is— what is a successful family ministry look like or family ministry team look like. The one thing that I always tried to emphasize whenever I was on local church staff, I always tried to emphasize to all of our staff when we sit in a staff meeting or whatever, we'd be making these plans, we'd have our discipleship pastor there, our preschool minister there, our children's pastor, you know, music pastor, exec pastor, all these different pastors. And sometimes we would be— we would forget that we are a family pastor before we are an executive pastor. We are a family pastor before we are a discipleship pastor. We're a family pastor before we are a student pastor. And I say that because if we can all realize that we are a family pastor first, then we will all work together and we will stop competing against each other, even if we don't mean to compete against each other, right?

Yeah.

And the reason I can say that we are all family pastors before we are a music pastor or whatever, or even a senior pastor, the reason I can say that is because every decision that I have ever made in my student ministry that decision affected more people than just the teenagers that I minister to. It affects their parents. It affects their siblings. It affects, you know, maybe their extended family or their friends or whatever. So we always had to keep that in mind. And whenever I would gather with my youth volunteer team— we had a great youth volunteer team, especially at this last church. But the last couple churches had great volunteers. But we would always gather, and one of the things that we had as a principle that we were going to live by in our student ministry was we were going to be a student ministry for the family, and what that meant was we're going to make sure we don't put too many events on the calendar, and we're not going to put too many expensive events on the calendar, and we're not going to put an event on the calendar when it is a holiday that they could be spending time with their family. Does it make sense? Yes. And this is tough because like you have spring break mission trips and other things, and those are really good, and sometimes the only opportunity that that a student pastor has with their kids, but a lot of times we would try to encourage a family ministry or a family mission trip, or at least have a lot of the parents who could to come and be volunteers, you know, like, so even when we do events, whether it's a camp or a mission trip or anything, we would always try to keep in mind our first volunteer potentials should be the parents for two reasons. Number one, parents want us to succeed because they want their kids to succeed. So we're gonna get some good volunteers. But then number 2, um, I want the parents involved with the kids as much as possible and the kids involved with the parents as much as possible. You know, Tim, you grew up with pastors in your family. My dad was a pastor, and, um, I'd remember ministering with him, and I remember him going on these trips, and I remember having spiritual moments at retreats or at camps, and Dad was right there, you know. And sometimes Dad was having that same experience. Don't you think that changes the, the heart of a student when they can see that? And I guarantee you it changes the heart of a dad or a mom when they are experiencing a spiritual moment. A lot of times we have students go off to camp, they, they encounter the Lord, they come back and they're on fire for the Lord. But guess what? Mom and dad, they experienced a normal week. They didn't experience a mountaintop, you know, spiritual moment. So the kids come home and then the spiritual experience kind of dwindles rather quickly, if nothing else because mom and dad didn't experience the same thing as the child did, and the child doesn't feel like it's their role to educate mom and dad on spiritual things. Does it make sense?

Yes, perfect sense, man. You're really breaking it down and bringing some substance to it. Actually, you answered the question that I was going to kind of like a a follow-up. But, but that's so true, man. And like I said, I totally agree with that. And it actually kind of brings me to the next question that I have for you. It's kind of like breaking down that quote within the book. Uh, you say what happens at home is more impactful than what happens at the church. And I believe it was like page 93 where you put, uh, parents weren't hindering my ministry, I was really hindering their ministry. So if you can kind of unpack that a little bit more, and you know, as we transition to that, like, where did that come from?

Yeah, well, that was a hard sentence for me to write because it was a hard truth for me to embrace. Because as a student pastor, I was— I'd never made the student ministry about myself because I never had this big personality that just drew a crowd, you know. So it wasn't like I was having a personality-driven student ministry, but I really invested a lot of time, energy, and effort and prayer and all that into what I did as a student pastor. And when God really started teaching that to me, and part of it was just my growth as a parent, you know, I was a student pastor, but I was also a parent. I've been married for 20 years. I have a 19-year-old who's in college right now going to get a degree in media, creative, creative media production. So I'm excited about that., but I've got a 10-year-old too who's in 4th grade. Now that guy's a speller and a writer, but, but both of them are— that's just, it's a big split. You know, we had our oldest son when we were really young. We were both 20, and, um, but we were also starting in ministry, right? And so I was learning ministry the same time I was learning parenting. And so God was— I was focusing on trying to be the best student pastor I could be, but at the same time I was noticing what it's like to be a parent. And so that's kind of where that statement came from. Then I started realizing, and going to some conferences like Orange Conference and reading different, different books, and one of the books that you talked about, um, you may talk about later, uh, I've read that too. And those types of books, yeah, yeah, they change your perspective on things.

Yes.

So that I started realizing my parents, uh, they act a certain way, and it turns out their kids act just like them., and the parents sometimes want to complain to us because their kids aren't getting, I don't know, closer to the Lord when they come to church. But in reality, the kid is mimicking mom and dad more. So I started realizing, wow, why don't we start influencing the parents as much as, if not more than, we try to influence these teenagers? And if you'll notice, Tim, you probably have a lot of the same mannerisms that your dad does or that your mom does. You know, I've got this little sassy little attitude that my mom had. You know, and I've got some of her humor and personality. I walk, talk, and act like my dad, you know, I twiddle my thumbs like him. And even when I was a teenager, that was my one goal: don't turn into mom or dad, right? And that's the one thing that I ended up doing. Um, and I think there's a book, I think it's Think Orange, uh, by Reggie Joiner. He talks about, um, a typical year, there's about 3,000 hours in a typical year that you have as a parent with your children, the significant time. But as a pastor, I only have about 40 to 80 hours, 40 to 90 hours, let's just round it up, even 100 hours compared to 3,000 hours. Uh, the parents are going to win every time. So we have to remember not to leave the parents out, but to include the parents and try to disciple the parents as much as we're trying to disciple their kids, because that's ultimately what's going to happen.

If you don't mind to kind of go back in park there a little bit. Uh, yeah, I totally wholeheartedly agree with that. And you know, this is kind of— my wife, we were actually talking about this, and even my dad, um, both of them. So, uh, back at where I'm from, like I said, I live in Conway, Arkansas, and my hometown is Pine Bluff, Arkansas, and it's about, like I say, 40-45 minutes away. And just recently, um, uh, at the junior high school— and I know you've probably seen, we you know, people have seen this all over, and it's sad. And I will never use the term that it's, it's common because it shouldn't be. But we have all witnessed, you know, uh, school shootings, you know, whether seeing it in the news or hearing about it on social media through people. And just a few weeks ago, a school shooting took place, uh, at a junior high. Like, I literally, you know, used to go watch them play, uh, that I had friends and cousins and family to go to. And, you know, one of the first things— and I don't like to get into this— but one of the first things, you know, like a lot of people would say is that, you know, it's the school fault, it's the church's fault. But I was actually doing kind of an ad hoc conversation with someone, interview, and, you know, I say, listen, I'm not trying to sit up here and, you know, uh, speak at people or take shots, but I say one thing that I will say, and that I'm learning, I mean, you know just like you, Preston. I mean, I have, you know, two, uh, two boys, and, you know, maybe another, another, hopefully a little daughter on the way. But, um, but that being said, is that, you know, I'm a father. Um, I've coached, you know, my boys' team. I'm coaching next year as well. Uh, I work in ministry. I've— my wife has been a part of school. And so the point that I'm trying to make is that I have seen like a lot of dynamics and kind of what you're saying. And the point is, is that I tell people is that you can't expect for a child to walk in the local church or whatever and totally operate or learn certain things, you know, or become this person that, you know, whatever, for whatever reason, like that the church is kind of help disciple people if they're going back into an environment that they are seeing total opposition. So, you know, for example, if with me being a father, if my kids don't see me treat their mother right, if I'm doing, you know, whatever, whether it's just profanity language, I'm lazy, I'm just, you know, all this type of thing, then like they're seeing this, what, I mean, 10 hours a day, and then I dropped them off once or twice a week for an hour or two.

So, you know, like, yeah, Yes, and I have one of my mentors, her name is Jane Wilson. She's a great ministry mentor. She actually— I think she got this from Kara Powell up at Fuller. I'm not 100% sure on that, but the phrase is dry cleaner parenting. A lot of times there will be parents who will treat the student ministry or treat the church the way they treat their dry cleaners. They will drop their kids off for an hour and expect to pick them up crisp and clean and pure again.

Wow.

For the next week, you know. And so we need to remind parents that that's not the way that it's supposed to be. We need to remind pastors that because a lot of times— and here's the interesting thing, Tim— you know, we get, as pastors, we get into the routine of just doing programs and programs and doing services and services that we forget to remind the parents, "No, no, you are the primary discipler of your child," you know. Exactly. And then we actually— and that's what I mean by getting in the way, you know, that whole phrase that I had of getting in the way of the ministry of the parents is I was doing things for the parent that the parent should have been doing for themselves.

Exactly, exactly. And see, that's what I love about that quote, because like I say, in that, to kind of conclude in that thing, and, and that's kind of the area I say, like when I was talking about it, I actually quoted, you know, what you said. I say it's a give and take. I'm not putting, you know, the blame all on here. Like, I just think the local church has to accept responsibility disability as well as the parent, and we have to know what we've been called to do. But true discipleship— I, I'm a firm believer that charity begins at home. And I like, to your point, like I said, what you said, the lady kind of an example with the dry cleaners, is that, you know, now in, in ministry, you know, for, for me, as I like with the book kind of challenging my paradigm, but I was guilty of doing it that way. I was like, well, the child is coming here, you know. So now I'm kind of frustrated, and I'm like, okay, you know, let— like, let me do more and more and more. I'm trying to figure out all these kind of ways, and then as I read the book, I'm like, wow, I'm trying to function in the area and do something that God called the family to do.

You're trying to chop a giant oak tree down with a hammer. It's not— it's not gonna work, you know what I mean? Exactly. And to go back to the dry cleaner illustration, you know, not only do parents treat the church like a dry cleaner, but the church acts like a dry cleaner. So we actually invite them to do that, right? We, you know, here's this service and this service. We've got these opportunities for you and these opportunities. And I'm not opposed to giving them multiple things to get involved in, but if we communicate it incorrectly, we're going to communicate it as if it's expected for the parent to drop their kids off as if they're dry cleaners. You know what I mean?

Yes, setting an expectation.

Yeah, that's right. So we just have to be careful, you know. And so when you ask the question, the overall question, what does a successful family ministry look like? That's it. Like, being able to focus on the family and recognizing what the church should do and what the church shouldn't do, you know?

Yes. No, I, I totally agree. And like I say, man, that's why I tell people— I know I said in the opening, the book, like, it was very challenging. It was like moments that as I was reading through it, like, you know, because usually with me I do like a first pass, but even in the first pass, like, it was just certain things. I mean that even if like, because kind of early on how you dealt with kind of the person, you know, that's reading this book before you transition into kind of talking about the principles and the structure of it. So just the conviction, and I tell people all the time, you know, conviction is not a bad thing. Like, it's not going to condemn you, it's, it's just conviction to help liberate you and see like, okay, wow. And then you stay with scripture, you know, I love the scripture support. In the book and how you, through the power of God, you walk the fine line of like not taking shots or anything. Like, just your heart, you can tell if, if people really like read it and like just read it through the right lens and just with the grace of God, I'm telling you people, you will be blessed. Like, the book, I mean, it just, it just really opened my mind up into things. And like I say, that's why now, you know, uh, as I was kind of talking to you, Preston, that I recommended it to the leadership team with both campuses and stuff. And I even— I'm going to recommend it to more, you know, pastors because like when I come across something that has really helped my life, just like with us, with, you know, we're both people of faith, we're— we love the gospel, uh, most importantly we love applying it, you know, applying it through the power of the Holy Spirit. And so to me, you know, I'm not saying that I'm gonna always, you know, quote scriptures to people, but at the same time, you know, I'm going to share the gospel in some way.. And whether it's just people seeing it through my life, through the power of God, or what. So what I'm trying to say is that that's how I feel about this book. I mean, why would I sit on it when I know so many pastors? I mean, I've been in the ministry literally my, my whole entire life. And so it's like, this book, it's like, I truly believe in it. And so, uh, like I said, so if you're listening, you know, just kind of like how Preston navigated these first two questions and how he's not you know, pointing at just the pastor. He's not just pointing at the family. Like, if you really heard, you know, really just listen to the interview, he's really saying like, let's do it together. Like, and I think that's one of the main things that I took from this book is like, let's stop the blame shifting. Like, let's just figure out, you know, and take responsibility and move forward in what God has called us to do as pastors, as leaders in the ministry, as well as a family together. And I think once we start there and we remove that selflessness, I believe that's how we move forward and that's how we, uh, have a, have a successful family ministry, if that makes sense.

Preston? Yeah, amen. Yeah, I appreciate every word that you said and I agree with it all.

So go, go, man. Awesome, awesome. Well, Preston, man, uh, so like, you know, and I told you, like I said, one of the books that you referenced, man, before we kind of get into like 1 to 3 takeaways— I don't try to put pressure to do 3, it's just whatever God puts on your heart— but I will say is that I did read New Counter Leader, as you mentioned, and one of my favorite quotes out of that book, just like I say one of my favorite quotes out of yours, is, uh, parents weren't hindering my ministry, I was really hindering their ministry. I actually like it with the quote of, uh, Reggie Joiner's book, if you combine the heart of the family with the light of the church, you will make a greater impact.

Yeah, amen.

I like— I literally, I told my— like, if we do a family— like, update our family ministry room and like the lights and and things. Like, these are type of quotes that I want to put somewhere, just, it's like, just, you know, weekly or daily reminders as people come through and see these things, man.

So yeah, that's Deuteronomy 6 stuff, man. Throwing stuff up on our forehead, you know, throwing it on the doorpost. Or like, we need to put those types of quotes on. And I tell you, the one thing I love about Reggie Joiner is he can take an entire paragraph and put it into 10 words. Yes, you know, or 15 words, however many words that one is. Like, man, Yes, you communicate like that. Yes, but yeah, he's spot on.

He's awesome, man. And, and you speaking of Orange Conference, uh, we actually, like, before all this, this pandemic, we actually were gonna go to the one, uh, go to the one that I believe was in Atlanta. And, you know, of course, like I said, when the pandemic hit, you know, we just watched some of the things virtual or whatever, but I was very excited, uh, to, to actually go to one of those, man.

Yeah, it's really worth it.

Oh yeah, so like hearing you say it, I'm like, wow, you know. And like I said, I just— I really hold your book, it's just one of those top 5 books now, like just ministry-related stuff. So, uh, so people, uh, before, like I said, we get into the takeaways of this, I guess I just want to encourage you once again, if you haven't— if you are enjoying this interview, man, plug into the resources and get this book because you will truly be blessed by it. And with that being said, uh, Preston, like I say, man, just 1 to 3 things, man, if you could just give 3 good sizzling points, man, uh, just takeaways from the book, you know, from this interview, or just life experience in the context of you, you know, doing ministry. Just whatever's on your heart, man. I just want to kind of yield that to you, and, you know, we'll kind of start moving to the conclusion from there.

Yeah, well, Tim, I appreciate that. Um, the one thing that God has really been teaching me a lot here lately, and, um, and it's just, you know, it's just really changed the way I've looked at even life and ministry is love, the word love, you know. And this isn't a new concept, okay, but this idea of— Jesus once said, you know, love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind, love your neighbor as you love yourself. All the law and prophets hinge on those two things. So Jesus was basically saying, if you just do those two things, if you just love, then you'll fulfill all the other prop— all the other, uh, rules, which are about 613 or 614 in the Old Testament, you know. And then Paul later reiterated that. It's like that one royal law, love your neighbor as you love yourself, you'll do all the other laws that are in the Old Testament. And so God gave me an acronym with love to help because I was thinking, I need something that's more simple than even that. Like, that's awesome. Like, love God with all of your heart, soul, mind, love your neighbor as yourself. That's easy to remember, and I can fulfill all the other rules if I just fulfill those two. That's great, but I need it— like, how do I do that, right? Yeah, and so God gave me an acronym for love, and I've just been sharing it as much as I possibly can because it has revolutionized the way I live. It really has. And so this is, this is the acronym. It's super simple. The L stands for listen, the O stands for observe, the V stands for value, and the E stands for express. So the phrase is we need to listen and observe, looking for something of value that we can express to the person that we're having an encounter with. Now, if we do that, we will never do anything that devalues them. We'll only do things that value them, which means we will never murder them, we'll never slander them, we'll never cheat on them, we'll never, you know, lie about them or lie to— we'll fulfill all the other rules socially and biblically just by doing that one, by expressing value. And it applies to God. If I want to love God with all of my heart, soul, mind, I'm going to listen and observe, looking for something of value that I can express to him. And even it applies to us. God has really been teaching this about to me here lately, that when we look ourselves in the mirror and sometimes we don't like what we see, whether we don't like the outer appearance or we don't like what we know is in our heart, we can look at ourselves in the eyes and we can listen and observe, looking for something of value that we can express to ourselves. Because there's no way that we can love our neighbor as ourself if we don't love ourselves. So love is the one thing you want to have a takeaway, one takeaway. And if you were to do this as a parent, if you were to do this as a child, if you were to do this as a pastor, it would change everything.

Man, that is awesome. That is awesome, man. I love it. Like, I love it. I'm gonna definitely have to, when I go back and do the, the just the editing of this, I'm gonna definitely have to go back and just let that simmer, man, because I'm a person where I like to just really focus on things, man, and just meditate on them. But that— I, I love it, man, and I think that is so true. I truly appreciate you for sharing that, Preston.

Praise the Lord, I appreciate the opportunity.

Cool, man.

Cool.

Well, man, Preston, like I say once again, man, it was such an honor to have you on, man. I truly enjoyed the content, truly enjoyed the way you broke things. Like, I think John C. Maxwell always says one thing that I love about him in, in one of his books that he wrote when he talked about when he was— he read these books by John Wooden, and he was like, you know, the books were great, and he was like, but meeting John Wooden was so much just better than just reading the book. So that being said, what I'm trying to say is, man, I kind of see why John C. Maxwell wrote that, uh, because just like I said, the substance, man, the wisdom, and just the spirit-led, you know, conversation, and how you just let him direct you. I can definitely tell that, man, you definitely influence and walking in the spirit of God. So, Preston, man, once again, like I said, I want to thank you so much for coming on, man. I want to also— one thing I love to do, man, because I know you're married, I know you have a family, so I want to thank them for allowing you to, you know, just spend some of your time with me, man, and record this, because I feel like people's time are so valuable. So I also want you to tell them I said thank you as well for, uh, allowing you, man, to, like I said, be on this with me. And we just kind of do this and just just help, like I say, just share the gospel, man, and share unique ways that we believe God is, you know, using us to speak to His people. And so, Preston, man, if it's anything out there that, you know, just kind of social media links that people may be able to follow you if they have questions, you know, do you have any of those that you would like to share?

You know, my wife does all the social media more than I do, but I think you can just look up Preston Cave or Preston Sarah Cave because we share. So Preston Sarah with an H Cave on Facebook and on Instagram. You can go to tbmtx.org. That stands for Texas Baptist Men Texas, so tbmtx.org, and you can learn about our ministry, and you can go to fightingfamilies.com and learn a little bit more about our podcast that we do, so those are some of the connections that you can—

Awesome. Awesome. Well, people, I really hope you enjoyed this. Like I said, I'll get those links and upload them here in the description along with a link to the book and just other additional resources that Preston, uh, gave us. So I want to thank you all so much for taking the time to rock with us. As always, be blessed and continue to do the will of God. Hey, what's up? I want to thank you for taking the time to listen to this Doing the Life podcast today. If this content has impacted you in any kind of way, please take some time to share it on your social media feeds. And also, if you want to connect with me or just learn more about me, go over to www.timothyprattjr.org. Once again, thanks.